Episode 82 – Minter Dial | Authentic Leadership (You Lead)

In this episode I speak with Minter Dial, a fellow podcaster and author who’s passionate about bringing about change through business and leadership. Minter boosts a 16 year career as a top exec at L’Oreal, involvement in 3 startups, award-winning producer and author of three published books.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:00

Minter, so glad to receive your message to come on the podcast and have a chat. And I’ve been reading all about what you’ve been doing these last few years, your book, your movie, and what you do, and just starting to chat to you now about your passions. I’m so excited about this conversation, looking forward to sharing some of your knowledge and talking about your book that’s coming out early next year as well. You’ve been quite busy, because I know to write a book takes a lot of time and energy. Before we get into that, though, how are you right now at the end of 2020?

Minter Dial  00:41

Thanks for having me on the show, Murray. And the answer that is, I think, unapologetically tired. I think that the the efforts that has taken to transition, not to mention deal with the stuff. But what it’s taken as a 56 year old is quite the, you know, Oh, I got to get back on some kind of other treadmill, which requires other skills and another rhythm. And I’d like to say we, I mean, basically, the times are changing. Sure. But I actually think time has changed; the way we evaluate time and how you live time. And actually, why are we living. And all this takes a weight and I’ve not been the same type of energetic person who has, I’ve had to intentionally look for other ways to generate energy, which used to come sort of somewhat naturally. That’s where I am.

Murray Guest  01:41

I was talking to someone the other day, and I said, How you feeling? And they said, I feel everything. And I echo that, because right now I feel quite calm, quite relaxed, but also feel quite tired. I feel energetic to speak to you. I feel like 2020 has been a year of we can put so many adjectives in front of that. And it is, yeah, there’s a tiredness, but at the same time, I think there’s a real reset about perspective on what’s important. And I think you and I have a passion for connection and, and conversations and how that’s coming back around. I hope it is.

Minter Dial  02:21

Well I totally agree. And I’m gonna say that part of my challenge is, is trying to figure out which conversations we’re even allowed to have. Because not only do I feel like we’re more divisive, I feel like there’s a lot of things we’re no longer allowed to say. And, and as such, that’s a weight. And I sort of look at that as being a problem, where we can trigger too often by saying anything out of context.

Murray Guest  02:53

And that I was going to say and to jump in and that the need to be right and the need to be validated of a point of view, which confirms where you are, which then confirms and creates more divisiveness, because I’m recruiting more people that think like I do, versus having that different opinion, and create some really constructive, you know, learning opportunities and connecting opportunities.

Minter Dial  03:24

Learning opportunities, really, because bridging into other opinions and other perspectives can also be really enriching if you’re open to it. So it’s not about like, well, I’m right, you’re wrong, which is you’re fighting and that’s energy. But it’s sort of a Boolean energy. You either win or you lose. And there’s another energy which comes through building and constructing and learning and accepting that I’m wrong at times to reset like you say, to come back and be stronger for.

Murray Guest  04:02

And what about all of the bits in between the the right the wrong? The Yes, the no, along the spectrum of opinion of it’s not exactly what you’re saying or exactly what I’m saying. It’s what about what about all those perspectives between those, or as someone I met last year, Pete Holliday, a great guy, and he said to me, you know, what’s the third answer?

Minter Dial  04:28

Well, I feel like as we get more and more angry about things, we get more and more adamant and less open to listening, and more black and white. And, and this is the deal. I mean, really, it’s it’s pretty much always depends like every good consultant right? It depends. But it is in the nuance, and it is in the context. And sometimes one word might be the wrong word. But if it were said in 1820 well that was the context. And we should study the history around which it was said in that context. And not feel like that too needs to be thrown out. In today’s world, yeah, that that wouldn’t be good. But we should be able to understand in different contexts, different things. So I use sort of an exaggerated historical references, but out of context, you can say something in a, for example, on social media, and it can be ripped out like, Well, you didn’t do the right hashtag, huh.

Murray Guest  05:36

Yeah, what happened about being human. And, you know, we don’t get it right all the time. And we’re making 1000s of decisions every day. And to put those expectations on someone with the words they use the way they might frame something up or explain something, or explain how they’re feeling, or sharing something on social media, that it needs to be perfect all the time. And it’s never going to be. I’ve had both my feet jammed in my mouth a number of times, and words still come out. It’s about where do we have a bit of grace and kindness for each other? And, you know, this leads to your new book doesn’t it, around how, or even empathy, and you talk so much about your last book about that about how important empathy is. So how do you think we get back to that place of more empathy and kindness?

Minter Dial  06:32

Well, so I think we’re, we’re destined to have lots of badness because the human being has bad and good. And I mean, you’ve seen in the pandemic, lots of amazing things happen, but you’ve also seen a whole lot of shit. And in cyber hacking, recently, my sister’s hospital, she works in Baltimore, in cardiopulmonary critical care. And her hospital has been attacked just recently with ransomware. So these are some buggers who want to get some money out of a hospital. Yikes. Anyway, so I think that’s a reality.

Murray Guest  07:11

I heard on a short podcast series last year, where this similar thing happened with a council in the UK. And these are just the ones we hear about, there’s all the other ones, of course, that are happening, which we don’t know about. But again, as you’re saying these things that are coming out of society, again, a complete opposite to empathy and compassion and appreciation.

Minter Dial  07:39

So that was a sort of just a table stakes it, as in, we’ve got shit to deal with, and shit will always happen. And I think that’s also part of it. So I tend personally to put try to put things, so I think the answer to that has to be, I’m gonna start with how I’m going to deal with it. Because I’m not going to be able to fix the world. But if I can at least model the behavior and figure out my path, then maybe that’s, that’s, that’s a way for it. It’s nothing worse than being like the guy who talks about empathy, but not being empathic. And which is an interesting challenge when you write about this stuff. And so I actually want to practice self empathy, and also want to be walking the talk. So if I don’t feel well, I should be able to say, I don’t feel well, it doesn’t mean any lesser thing. I’m going to tell you a funny thing. I mean, I was brought up a stiff upper lip rugby player 18 years. And you don’t bring emotions you don’t show bad emotions anyway. And, and I remember the first time I cried in public, which I completely didn’t expect, on top of which it was for a really prestigious audience, around about maybe 60 or 80 journalists, and rather well known people, so I had stress involved. And this was not the time to break down. And of course, the first thing I thought about was Oh, shit, I can. Oh, my God, I’m so embarrassed. Oh, god, I’m so sorry. You know, I was sobbing and it got worse.

Murray Guest  09:20

The shame for the showing of the emotion.

Minter Dial  09:23

Oh, God, it was just I was like, Oh, this is this is a disaster. So I sort of then then they started clapping. That was very nice. I’m like, oh, they’re being nice to be generous. Cool. All right. But that’s still, I was a fuckup. Okay, let me get back on the track. And then I’ll focus in on what I got to say. And anyway, I remember at the end, sort of wondering how, sheepishly wondering how it is going to happen and one of the journalists came up and hugged me. And, and certainly didn’t look like he was thinking I was any worse for it. Anyway, so back to the answers. How do you get through this? Well, I have sort of committed to making sure that I visibly for myself, do things which are important according to my language every day, and if I can show that it doesn’t need to be a dictatorship of purpose, like it doesn’t need to be a tyranny of empathy either. But if I can make sure that I’m doing some things that are important, that are bringing me back energy, then I’m tapping into something that’s bigger. And hopefully, that’s what we all can do a little bit more of ourselves.

Murray Guest  10:36

Yeah, I’m thinking about the other part of your story of through you showing your emotion. As much as in the moment, you felt exposed, and vulnerable, and shame and all of that. But that created a space for that journalist to give you a hug, for him to show, I assume him sorry, emotion as well. And, you know, the space you create, through that moment, and you talk about walking the talk, and there’s future moments of, I’m showing up with my true emotions and empathy, then that creates a space for others to do that as well.

Minter Dial  11:15

And I am still learning. Murray, the other day, I was interviewed by a journalist. And I got my guard up. Because I was taught my experience showed me that if you let too much out or didn’t say the right thing on the record off the record, you get screwed, bam. Yeah, that’s how it goes. And so I bought it I bought in my shield. And at least, you know, I tried to say good things, right, Murray, but I was I know that I was, you know, careful around the edges. And, and then we ended up having this journalist revealing to me some deepest secrets. I found how extraordinary I came into this thinking I should be guarded. And the journalist opened up to me.

Murray Guest  12:07

Hmm.

Minter Dial  12:09

And it was with no other bad malicious intent. But by goodness, we had added on an extra hour to our conversation, talking about life and shit. And it just, we ended with high energy.

Murray Guest  12:21

Yeah, yeah. And as that journalist opened up to you, that shield that you brought in how quickly did that drop, yeah, threw it away.

Minter Dial  12:31

I mean, and then I was revealing my stuff and, and the stories beget stories, but if they’re real stories, not like just cosmetic or commercial stories, that you know that storytelling, oh, yeah, it’s really great storytelling, but so many people don’t tap into something that’s real within the story. When you’re running a company, you do the story, the founder story was not me the founder, but you know, I’ll tell the story and I try to use up or at least own it somehow, but I don’t link into it on a personal level. And that has, there are two problems to that – one is people know that it’s not genuine. And two, you’re gonna bore yourself. I’m telling this fucking story all over again. Oh, and where’s my energy? So somehow, with storytelling, in general, is the ability to go into who you really are in a professional space where I’m going to tell you some shit that, you know, you would imagine to be the stuff I tell you at a bar over a couple of scotches. I mean, that’s, that’s how it used to be.

Murray Guest  13:40

Yeah, well, I think about the Cowboys sitting around the campfire sharing stories, or people at the end of the harvest, sitting around chatting, or prior to mobile phones, smartphones sitting around the lunchroom. I actually, I worked for a vineyard when I first finished studying, and I was working in the laboratory, and it was in the picking season. And we had people from Italy, France, England, and parts of Australia. And I think we paid something silly like $3 or $4 a day or $5 a day I can’t remember. And for that you got a home cooked hot meal and we would sit around the table play Euchre and chat, not a phone to be seen. And that was connection. That was opening up. That was a This is what life is like for me and that that and now you know bloody phones and plus everything else. So of all the challenges of being real and vulnerable and open. We’ve got the shields up.

Minter Dial  14:52

So there’s two things there’s one is this notion of the image. I gotta I have to Instagram me and as I was chatting with another friend says, Well, you know what, there’s a T shirt that says, You know, I, I love the life of my Instagram profile. Oh, that’s not mine. And the second thing is this relationship with time. And you know, time is money. And we’ve sort of lost our ability to zero in on now. But why? What are we doing this for? And, and so what’s next and, you know, I got a next meeting. So this. So right now I kind of in this pandemic mode, there’s been enough of us needing to sit around and we’re not commuting to work anymore. Got about one and a half hours, extra two hours per day. And and enough of us are finally thinking a little bit more about why roll about but yet, we’re still in the you know, I think we’ve been programmed now with rush, rush, rush, efficiencies, productivity, and, and get on to the next thing as opposed to saying, hey, the chats, the Euchre, the moment, is actually what this is about.

Murray Guest  16:06

Yeah. And as you talk to me about that, I think about the leaders I’ve met in my career, or the leaders I’ve had the privilege to work with. And when you talk to them, they are fully present. They’re here in the now. And I’m listening. And I’m not listening to, to add a perspective, but I’m just listening to really connect and understand. And that makes a difference in someone’s life. I have a funny story. I was in Sydney two weeks ago, like I’ve ordered my coffee, I’m standing up waiting for my morning drug addiction. And someone else had ordered their coffee and he’s standing the requisite 1.5 meters away. And he sneezes. And he looks at me and says, ‘Oh, god, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.’ And I said, ‘Mate, no, it’s okay, bless you.’ And he looked at me with nearly tears in his eyes. And it for me, it was an automatic reaction of Bless you. But he’s like, Ah, thank you so much. And we had a smile and got our coffees went on our way. But I just I thought that that connection has became a even bigger need right now. And has been even harder at the same time.

Minter Dial  17:35

Well I didn’t sneeze. But I was behind a young woman in a store and I was looking in the row at the items right in front of her. And I leaned in because I didn’t have my glasses on. And she said ‘excuse me!’ So kind of the opposite. And I feel like there’s a lot of the opposite based on fear, which is so easy to run into. And this idea of hope and, and generosity, you know to strangers, God forbid, they’re going to kill me. It was this this idea that you mentioned just now about being present. I can’t put my finger on it. But there is something around how big leaders they have this thing called charm. And I think that the best description of that charm is making me feel like they’re only listening to me.

Murray Guest  18:40

Yeah, yeah.

Minter Dial  18:41

It’s like this idea that when when you have a conversation with somebody, and you spend all the time listening, right? And they say, ‘oh, you’re really interesting.’ Great.

Murray Guest  19:02

Well, I would even add, if I may add to this, it’s the leader that or the person that makes you feel like you’re the most important person right now. That there is a something else more important right now that I need to rush you I need to get to on my phone or bloody whatever else. It is right now. You’re the most important thing right now.

Minter Dial  19:23

Despite the fact that they are the big swing dick. They’re the big Buhler. They’re the Big Kahuna. And they’re talking to me, and they’re focused and they aren’t looking at their watch. They aren’t looking around and thinking about who’s looking at them, but actually, crap, that is real charm. And I had this when I ran Redken for L’Oreal, or part of the L’Oreal brand. There was a woman in my team called Anne Mincy. And I’m going to call her out. She’s probably going to call me and say you shouldn’t do that, but Anne was really the unofficial director of love. She made anybody who was in her sphere feel like their world all the time. Yeah, up and down the hierarchy in every country didn’t matter. She was there. Good lord. That was a real lesson. And I, and on top of that she was just brilliant at what she was doing. And and she just made the world a better place all the time. Good lord.

Murray Guest  20:39

Yeah, um, can I ask what did Anne do? So if you would have walked past Anne what is she doing, what is she saying, which demonstrated and created that love and that appreciation?

Minter Dial  20:55

So we had a few mania so well outside of the fact that I had a lot of complicity with Anne, and so let’s say, if I ran into Anne there was no way I wasn’t going to say hello. But on balance, we had a few little habits in our group. And one of them was the Redken hug. And we even had a Redken handshake. And, and both of them involved love. So, you know, possibly happens in Australia. But in America, when we hug, we tend to do it. It’s like a triangle, we get as little close to you as we can, you put the arms around, you tap tap tap, and you move away. As if that didn’t happen? 

Murray Guest  21:46

With the groins pushed out as far as possible.

Minter Dial  21:49

That’s the triangle. Well, the Redken hug beautifully and systematically implemented by Annie was a seven second full on full body contact hug.

Murray Guest  22:05

So can I ask was it always heart to heart? Because that’s something I’ve learned as well.

Minter Dial  22:10

Well, sure. And, and so more or less, I mean, there’s, there’s not real science, because it takes proper methods. But the real Sciences is supposed to be more like 20 seconds. But our story, and that’s also part of, I would say, reality being pragmatic. Is that seven seconds was long enough to be uncomfortable. And the idea behind the length of that study is that your heartbeats start to synchronize. And, and then, so then we’re in heart, we’re like, we’re in the loveland for that reason.

Murray Guest  22:46

Well, again, that links back to I think some of our earlier comments about pausing being present, caring about the person you’re with. And I invite everyone out there next time, they hug someone. Think about actually being really present and actually doing for seven seconds, not two seconds, and you will notice the difference.

Minter Dial  23:09

Oh, god, yes. There’s this uncomfortable element. And, and I had to update this because I talked about it my book, because me too.

Murray Guest  23:19

Yeah, of course.

Minter Dial  23:19

And and so you now need to be more in a permission mode. Can I give you a hug? Yes. Almost like, Can I give you an uncomfortable, possibly sexual harassment type of hug? Is that okay? Because, I mean, if I don’t do that, in certain legislative minds that can go poorly. But at the time, it was pre ‘Me too’. And of course, the good news, or the real important thing is the intention. And if the intention is malevolent, then it’s never good. But we would do man to man, woman to woman and woman to man, and it was okay.

Murray Guest  23:58

Yeah, and I think you’re right. So there’s, there’s intention, there’s culture, there’s permission, that all are very valid or not need to be considered. And, and again, it’s not male, female, or any other gender that you identify with. I know, for example, on the quiet, my friend Pete Smith, who I’ve had a great friendship with for many years, and when I see him, he stops, he looks at me. He says, ‘hug heart to heart’, and we hold each other for seven seconds must be, because it starts to feel a bit, Okay, we’ve had long enough, but I do feel that connection, and he does that every time.

Minter Dial  24:38

Well, the way I like to do it is two big breaths. Because the first one is really you caught short. And then the second one. But it started really, with a handshake. I wanted to mention it too, because, you know, sometimes the hug wasn’t quite practical. We had did have a lot of French bosses that weren’t part of the Redken culture. And, and yet, so I that’s when I did my let’s say the lightest version, because you know, you have to be pragmatic. And imagine you have a meeting with 100 people. It’s gonna take a long time to start the meeting. Yeah, if everybody has to hug everybody for seven seconds. All right. So, you know, we’re not that silly. So we would have a handshake though, the idea of the handshake was that the, the V in between the the thumb and the index finger should meet. You know, I would call it like a regular rugby handshake in and I hope that doesn’t dis-off other people. But that’s really what it is, is a thorough handshake. And the idea of the V’s were to meet. And the story in my mind was that that’s where the chakra of the heart is, it’s not actually true. But that’s sort of the story that I wanted was that a heart should meet through the V in our hands.

Murray Guest  25:57

What I’m thinking too, is that there again, it’s about intention. So if my intention is to just lightly touch fingers, or am I trying to really connect with each other with the palms? So is the good intention there? I’m wondering if you’ve seen this, and I have seen this, and to be honest, I’ve done it before, but you’ve reminded me to do it again more often. And that is at the start of a meeting, or a start of a session, let’s all just stop and take a few breaths together. So we don’t need to physically touch. But let’s just stop and breathe in and out two or three times to get us centered and present. And even that sort of alignment in our breathing has a connection as well.

Minter Dial  26:48

Of course, my mind is just whoosh, flying right back into rooms where that just wouldn’t be happening. You know, they were always, you know, that’s just a little bit too woowoo for me. And I think that’s a lot of people and and the challenge is creating that environment, that culture. And so if you’re the minion of the team, it’s going to be difficult for you to bring in that moment. If you’re the CEO, it’s another thing. But do you have that? Do you have the courage to do it? Do you have the hutzpah at some level to do it? And because you’re gonna have a few people in there still looking at you like, you know, you’re the new CEO, who is this guy?

Murray Guest  27:35

Yeah.

Minter Dial  27:36

That there’s always that. You know, and I remember when I came in, I was the youngest member of the C suite. And I so I knew that I had some sort of earn my place. So doing that kind of shit, that just doesn’t cut it. So you have to earn the space and create it. And so it’s nice to say, when you and I get it, we might then deliberately do that. And it’s sort of it’s not easy. It’s consensual. I mean, really, we’ve got it. Yeah, the challenge is creating it when it’s not there. And just doing it, and you’ve had a big fight, and then you just gonna say breathe, you know, fuck you. Yeah, yeah, we haven’t sorted out the hard stuff yet.

Murray Guest  28:18

Yeah, there’s that there’s an element there of, again, awareness of when’s the right time to do things and you learn from those mistakes of when, hey, this wasn’t the right time to do that. I’m thinking when you talk about leadership and leaders, you know, having that authority cue to do those things. But also how leaders need to be followers to create a space where people can try these things, or do something else, whatever it might be, suggest an idea of change and improvement, you know, we could go on, but how leaders are also followers, to go, okay, Mintor’s brought this to the meeting, let’s support that, let’s explore that. And that’s a critical role.

Minter Dial  29:07

It is. The word that comes to my mind, which is a wonderful word in French, which is to experiment. Because the idea of experimenting means I don’t actually know it before, I’m going to try something new. And in French, the word to experiment also means to experience. It means to experience something, you might think it means to experiment something, but that idea of experiment, doing it and not intellectually reading about meditation, but actually meditating. So this idea of doing shit that’s new, where you’re uncomfortable. I don’t know if that’s gonna work. I don’t believe in this stuff. And you’ve got to give you a chance to try it out. So that there’s a sense of, woo. I may look silly. Am I okay with that? I need to learn from other people to be working in the middle of it.

Murray Guest  30:18

And do we have a psychological safe culture? Where it’s okay to look silly.

Minter Dial  30:26

Yeah what if you got people gunning for you? There are many cultures where that still is the case. And, and Okay, that’s fine. Competition is fine. Then the other thing really to think about is how do you galvanize people to change with you? So you might change but then it doesn’t necessarily mean just because you’re the CEO everyone’s gonna do it with integrity? They might say, Yeah, yes sir. Boss, you’re the highest paid person in the room, everything you say is golden. But that’s not a proper place to be. And then thinking through, as, you know, you have naysayers in your team, how do you convince them to be participating? How do you make them convert them from being a naysayer to a truth sayer, someone who’s part of your gig. And these are easy things to say. But it’s really much harder to do. And I think you need to be somewhat smart about the approaches and, and layering in and figuring out, you have to understand that it’s all about relationships. And so you’re coming in, you’re leading, you’ve got three or four people who are not quite sure about you, how are you going to convince them? Well, this is this is part of the real challenge of leadership.

Murray Guest  31:49

And when you reflect on your time, back in, you know, leading the brand of Redken, and in that C suite, what really helped you bring people on that journey when you were trying to bring them along on something? What really worked for you?

Minter Dial  32:10

So there are two things, one worked really well and one didn’t work as well. The thing that worked really well was when I cottoned on to the mission of the purpose of Redken and it just light bulb, fucking oh my god, this is brilliant.

Murray Guest  32:28

Mm hmm.

Minter Dial  32:30

It wasn’t writing on a wall. It was the genuine article. I was like, Oh my god, this is, I’ve drunk Kool Aid, I’d dipped my tongue in acid, LSD. And this was the long trip.

Murray Guest  32:45

Why did that connect with you so much, what was it?

Minter Dial  32:47

Well, there’s a couple of reasons for that. And so first of all, it was a really legitimate bona fide interesting mission, which is to earn a better living, live a better life. And, and that, that seemed like, well, it’s pragmatic. We need to make money. That’s okay. So that feels very American, very genuine to that regard. And living a better life. Well shit we need to do that. And I thought about that United States, but pretty much everywhere in different ways, the challenge of living a better life. But the the context within which that that light bulb came to me was also I was running the brand through the September 11 2001 situation. And so I mean, there’s a whole, I don’t want to say too many swear words. But that was a fuck fest of a week for me. Because I am running a brand called Redken Fifth Avenue in New York City. My office, my corner office, overlooked the Twin Towers. I see the first explosion, I watched the second airplane fly down, around and in, four friends are killed. And I have my father visiting me, I hadn’t seen him in two years, the night before. And we had a fine time, but not a good time. So plane’s canceled, he has to come back. And on the morning of the 13th of September, amongst the things that went down that week, I had one telephone call, which really was a gut buster, where I had to call our retoucher, who was in New Jersey. And it was up to me to call him because all our photographs for 2002 for the campaigns had been in a server underneath tower number seven, which at 2:30 collapses, destroys all the servers and presumably other documents and other stories but all of our images, which are digital, had to go back to the backup server, and then retouch all the photographs, which meant make all the girls prettier than they look like and all that stuff. And two of my campaigns have the twin towers in the background. So my retoucher is living in a town where approximately 100 people are missing. He knows people are missing. And I asked him to retouch out of two of the campaigns, the World Trade Towers. So the vocabulary is, well, I just make them so I don’t recognize them. And he asked me, ‘So what floor do you want me to rub them out to?’

Murray Guest  35:48

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Minter Dial  35:54

So there I am thinking, ah, now is this is this what selling shampoos is about?

Murray Guest  35:59

Yeah.

Minter Dial  36:02

And I wasn’t, of course, the only person to have these type of feelings. And many people around the world had an extraordinary experience. There were other things going on for me in that week. But um, that was a pretty big lightbulb moment. So when I come back to the mission of living a better life, earning a better living, I want hairdressers to earn a better living, why do I want them to earn a better living, because it’s really tough being entrepreneur, being a creative, running books, making everybody else happy. Because that’s what they do. That’s their job, to make us look good and feel happy. Especially, you know, let’s say my mother in law, that kind of profile. And so if they can stay in business, that’s cool. If they can feel confident, and they can live a better life, then they’re going to make other people feel a better life. And then there was actually then the mission became, while we actually all need that, as people within the company. And anyway, that’s that was when my light bulb went on, I said, well, that’s far more important than selling one more bloody bottle of shampoo. This is what I got to latch on to.

Murray Guest  37:06

I think when you work for a company, and you connect with the values, purpose statement, and it goes beyond your professional life. Because that statement you can apply to anywhere in your life. Earn a better living live a better life, I can see how that can create conversation, reflection and drive in all areas of your life. The second one, when I think about that, and I think about that reflection from you, and the heaviness of that. I can sense if I’m sensing correctly, that there’s some reflection of I could have done that differently and better in that moment.

Minter Dial  37:49

Oh, my goodness, I actually I walked into it. Right. I stumbled into that thought. And it just, you know, I was trying to be pragmatic. I had to get an airplane on the 15th of September, which was a CEO who called me up and said, You need to come to Paris. I have to come to Paris. Now, sir, yeah, now, yeah, that’s it. I’ve got a plane. I’ve hired a private Learjet, or whatever it was, for you. You need to take it and you’re going to come over. So I say, Oh, my gosh, all right. And then that means things are happening, I’ve got to get back on the tracks and stop whinging around, I’ve got I got to move in. So I was sort of got my got back on the tracks and tried to figure out how to make things happen. And, and then you had to see me on the airplane, instead of, so we usually were 14 people delivering a two hour 15, two hour 30 minutes speech. That was to happen on the 18th of September. And so I had no one in my team coming. Just me. Usually, I would do with the like the bookender. And you know, and thank the team and all that, no no this was just me doing the whole thing. So I had to learn the whole spiel. And the way L’Oreal does things, you have to learn everything backwards.

Murray Guest  39:10

Yeah.

Minter Dial  39:12

So I’m trying to learn all this on the airplane. My team had briefed me and you know, talk about everything that they had planned, because they were planning that up until the 11th. And then to come in and tell rah rah rah, this is how we’re going to do the next three years business for my company. This was a serious three days for me.

Murray Guest  39:34

Yeah, yeah. How did it go?

Minter Dial  39:42

Well I remember being extemporaneous for the first five minutes. I was the only yank in the room, as yank as I can be. I certainly was the only person who had seen the whole thing happen with my eyes. And you have to understand that my wife was in hospital and my friend’s wives, I’m in touch with them. This is tough. And I’ve got to be talking about P&L, budgets, products and how this shampoo has a better silicon than the last year and this is the beautiful girl that has been retouched. I didn’t want to tell them about the tower seven. And so I’ve given the story. But so the extemporaneous part sort of fell out of me. And then I did the rest. And I, I think I expressed some genuine emotion. But it was still, I was crawling out of my cage.

Murray Guest  40:55

Yeah, yeah.

Minter Dial  40:56

Because I had been practicing this cage routine for 10 years. And that’s how I got to I got to because I was good at in the cage. And I moved into it and slowly sort of grew into like it, this whole thing is not a light switch that actually turned on overnight is what I could dimmer. Because it took me many years to really build into it. And then I got, then I got promoted to other jobs. And then then you had to find another way to connect into it. Because now I’m no longer running Redken, I’m doing other stuff in another country. And there’s a whole nother gig. And so adapting and living through new journey. I don’t know, how did it go? I learned so much about it. And I think how much and like you mentioned, plenty of fuck ups within there.

Murray Guest  41:55

I reflect back on 9/11. And how that’s one of those moments, which I felt like whilst it was perceived differently around the world, there was still very much a connection that happened around the world. I remember, I was, at the time doing some work late at night, and on the TV screen saw the second plane. And I remember, you know, freaking out what is happening. I was at the time working for Mars Incorporated, which is a global FMCG company. And now I think about with COVID. It’s another thing which is bringing people together collectively across the globe. And I think about how it links to some of our conversation today about connection and empathy, and how these things, as bad as they are, we’ve got to, you know, step through to the next stage of how do we connect, how do we be more present? How do we be more empathetic for each other, which I think hopefully leads us to to talk a bit about your new book, which is, You Lead, which is a great title.

Minter Dial  43:08

Thank you. All I can say is that 9/11 didn’t turn out well. So I’m hoping that we will learn some of these things. And I have a feeling that there’s some fishes in the way we come out of this in the form of a unilateralism and a lack of ability to have genuine disagreements in a civil manner. And so I I’m, that’s my my little parade, if you will, I’m hoping in little ways to continue to allow for us to disagree, including in the media, by the way.

Murray Guest  43:41

Yeah.

Minter Dial  43:42

That we should allow for us to have conversations that entertain that there’s not only one way to look at this, just like there isn’t just one way to look at 9/11.

Murray Guest  43:55

Yeah and I think this is the, I’m certainly not the first person to say this, the challenge of the busyness of today that we need to slow down and go deep in the conversation and not have sound bytes of information.

Minter Dial  44:13

100%. So this is it, you got to be capable of bringing your entire self into those moments. Feel when your heartbeat starts racing, because I’m getting upset or I’m getting what’s going on here. Which is maybe right maybe wrong, but it is what it is, but feel what you’re feeling. And and then that’s going to help you in the conversation we’re having. Because you don’t need to be jumping all over somebody, it’s really only just a manifestation of how you are having a problem.

Murray Guest  44:52

Yeah. And so tapping into those sensations, tapping into what’s going on and let’s say we’re doing that. What’s next?

Minter Dial  45:04

Well you need to be pragmatic, we need to do so. So I like the idea of ‘being’ first. So we’re being present, we’re being who we are. Let me sell to get the business going. I, of course, if we were to just wind back a second and sort of do matter, you know, like, there’s that extraordinary, the calendar of the world. And eight of the universe is a calendar where December 31. And it’s like, a couple of minutes before midnight. Yeah, yeah. So that kind of thing. So let’s go a little bit matter about this. But where it would, I think, makes the ‘how’ we do things later work is if we’ve done the hard work upfront. So we’ve got a mission, we have a purpose, we’ve decided that as a team, and this is how we’re going to express it. And this, these are the things we’re going to do towards that mission, doesn’t mean 100% of everything we’re doing is doing it. But we have a general good idea of how we’re going to solve this mission and be the purpose we’re talking about. Then the second area that needs to happen is within culture, and values and behaviors. So not only does that make the word that we talk about integrity, family, or whatever word we have, be more specific to ours, because there really only are 75 or so different values. So you know that that’s slim pickings. So the only way that becomes real is when you make it yours, you identify that. And then you need to link those values, three, ideally, no more, to the purpose. And, and if they gel, then you think you’ve got something that’s you now know where you’re going, who you are, and why that’s important to you. Then, even still not doing the action plan, what we’re going to do in this matter calendar story I’m telling you about, you need to understand, are you prepared to pay the price to get to be this person, because it’s going to mean not doing other things. And in a concrete example of this was brilliant. When we were at Redken with a great consultant called Howard Gutman. And Pat, who is my sort of co-conspirator, we came up with the idea of how we’re going to roll and make success for us within L’Oreal group within the industry. And we said, well, we really have ambition to make what we do better. Why? Because we’re doing shit that’s important. Where we’re allowing hairdressers to earn a better living and live a better life. So that’s, that’s pretty fucking cool. All right, what do we need to do that? Well, we need to go into a space, which means we may not be comfortable. Well, that means letting go of certain investments, certain product categories that we typically thought were like our cash cow, our regulars, where we could count on them, where we anniversary every year, those same type of motions. So we need to do things differently. Oh fuck well, what happens if it doesn’t work? Are we prepared to do what it takes to get to that? And the way we did it, and Howard heard our call, he said, what we’re gonna do, we have four product categories. And we’re going to invest 90% of our marketing on one.

Murray Guest  48:36

So we’re all in, we’re all in.

Minter Dial  48:41

All in. You know, but, you know, the categories, we had two of them that weigh 30% each, one was a little less and one is a little bit more afterwards. So 90%! We can’t do that up in arms!

Murray Guest  48:58

This doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense. When we run the numbers compared to numbers before. This doesn’t make sense. We got to split our investment across all four categories.

Minter Dial  49:06

Let’s be safer. Yeah. This was a very specific method of are we sure we’re prepared to pay the price. And now let’s talk about our plan. So to your point, you know, now we sort of, we’ve come to an agreement, rather than I mean, if you’ve done that work, then we can go the action plan. And it makes so much easier sense what we should be doing, how we’re going to do it because we’ve agreed to all this other stuff that’s harder.

Murray Guest  49:38

Yeah. And I think unfortunately, what happens invariably too often, is let’s talk about what we’re trying to achieve in our plan. And now how are we going to work together to do that?

Minter Dial  49:51

Right? Backwards.

Murray Guest  49:54

It’s backwards, versus who do we want to be? And are we aligned in our values, our approach and what are we not going to do? I love that, like, what can we let go of, that’s holding us back. Okay, let’s get on the same agreement for that. And I’m thinking about your rugby days. Let’s get our shit sorted in the change rooms in the week before on our training, before we take to the field.

Minter Dial  50:22

I recall, I remember dropping a catch, I was playing winger and, and had been up and under and I dropped the catch. And I remember, oh my god, I was mortified, and my captain came over, he says, I’m sure you won’t drop it again. I was like, okay, that’s cool. You’re allowed to make a mistake. That’s cool. And I’m still in touch with him. I had super highest respect for him. Simon was his name, he lives in Belgium. He was faster, better than I was. But he had the generosity to allow me off the hook.

Murray Guest  51:04

Yeah. And again, there’s a piece here again, around leadership, isn’t it? Around when someone fails, when someone stuffs up, when they make a mistake, how do you really support them? Make it okay, but, and here’s the thing, maintain their self esteem to move forward. Because I think if there’s too much of it, where it’s like, Okay, you’ve made that mistake, I’m going to hammer you for that. And therefore the self esteem is, you know, explicitly much lower than what it was. So how motivated is the person going to be to move forward?

Minter Dial  51:42

Well, you asked me before, how did it work? Or how do they get through and corral people? I mentioned the good one. But there’s a less good one. Where I was attempting to get people on board because I really drew on my experience. And, and so I was in France on the executive committee, surrounded by older only French, I mean, I have a French passport. So theoretically, I’m also French, but I certainly didn’t feel it. And I certainly didn’t go to the schools that they’d gone to. And, and anyway, I was a young whippersnapper who just came in from North America. And and something I learned in my first opportunity with L’Oreal in Paris was go out in the field, talk and listen, at their level, whomever you’re speaking with, don’t go in like pretentiously thinking, it all needs to be manicured for me. That’s not listening. That’s not right. And so what I, what I wanted to bring was my reality of being on the field, with distributors, with hairdressers, with educators because we had a big group of educators and bring that in. And that was my sort of my grounding. And, and, frankly, ends up being the thing I think was most important, which is our ability to listen in to customers, to the people who are at the coal mine, doing the stuff, not us highfalutin people sitting behind on leather chairs, drinking chic cappuccinos. We lose touch with what’s going on in our reality. So that was what I tried to do, but it failed. And, and I wasn’t able to garner them, I mean, and the the signature failure was digital. So they gave me eight different functions. I was in charge of eight different functions and basically, it was all the shit that they didn’t want to deal with. Everybody else had all the noble really useful, good things in the L’Oreal world and I had all this other shit like, you know, health and safety, education, VIP asshole customers, you know, because they keep on asking me and whinging about everything. And, and the thing called Digital, you know, stupid, you know, anecdotal thing called facebookie.com something like that. And, and you something Uber. And it has, like, you know, that’s, that’s really important. I kept on trying to explain that it would be useful, because I came from the United States and Canada, which at the time was actually the most penetrated country of Facebook in the world. And I was like, this is it. This is this is happening. Yeah, yeah, it’s not important enough. Now I read about it. And then told them you got to do this stuff. And when I left, L’Oreal had managed to peak at 0.9% of its marketing budget, in digital in 2009. And so the 0.9 compared to 25% for the real people, and the 0.9 broke down to being one third on servers, one third on updating websites for new products, and one third for innovation. So I knew I had not succeeded.

Murray Guest  55:20

Yeah, I can I can see that. And I no doubt, know that it’s a very different situation. You know, 11 years later.

Minter Dial  55:29

Oh, that’s true. But at the time, I was trying to push, push, push and, and get with the program and show why. But it was you know, is barking up the wrong tree really, as far as they’re concerned.

Murray Guest  55:42

Yeah, well, I think there’s the piece you mentioned earlier about story and telling stories and engaging the emotions. And with something so new, it is hard. But it’s, it’s what’s going to get people on the journey, for them to connect with the heart. And in with the mind, we need to with some data, but with that heart around, okay, I can feel this is where it’s going to go. Because there’s a real story here, it’s going to help us achieve what we’re trying to achieve.

Minter Dial  56:13

And you know, where I failed, because my boss said ‘Well, you’ve been blogging’ – I’ve been blogging, I started blogging in around 2005-2006. So there I am and he says, ‘I want to do a blog too.’ I said well that’s great, why do you want to do a blog? Because it’s what you’re supposed to do. I’m like, let’s look at that again. So we sort of strategize. And I remember this conversation. So I was accompanied by a great, great guy called Eric. And we got to a point where we’re going to explain we’re going to there’s a purpose to the blogging, and we’re going to think about the audience. And what are we going to say? Well, we’re gonna say what I do. What do you mean? What do you mean, you’re gonna say what we do? Well, I’m going to blog about my journey is where I’m going? Well, I think that’s really not really very interesting. It’d be interesting to maybe talk about your thoughts and feelings, your experiences as you go around. More than just matter of factly explaining what I do. ‘Well, that is too personal.’ And I imagine we spent something like I would say, 250,000 euros on his site, which you could have done for zero. Yeah, at the time on blogger.com, which is what I was paying. And I had more traffic on my little stupid little blog, which I wasn’t allowed to talk about, or even have. I had more traffic than he did on his quarter of a million euro baby. Anyway, the point was, I failed to get him into this path. And maybe who was it for me, I was maybe 15 years, 20 years, his junior, to explain this. But I did not manage to enrol him into the story.

Murray Guest  58:04

And at the same time, you were getting the visits, the hits, the rates on your website, through the stories you were telling in your blogs,

Minter Dial  58:14

Of course. I mean, by the way, I couldn’t talk about the fact that I was working at L’Oreal. And I so I would talk about things like rugger, and things that I was genuinely passionate about, but didn’t touch on anything professional. I wasn’t allowed to do that.

Murray Guest  58:28

Okay. Well, and and to go back full circle on today’s wonderful conversation, the power, the power, the importance, the realness of actually talking about this stuff, being vulnerable, opening up and create space for connection. There’s so much, you’re coming back on my podcast, by the way, I’ve already decided. Whether you like it or not, you have to come back. There’s more we need to talk about. Give us an understanding about You Lead, your new book that comes out next year. And what’s your hope for this book.

Minter Dial  59:05

So the title is You Lead: how being yourself makes you a better leader. And my thesis is there two things, which I would say are important. One is a little bit drier, but necessary, and the other is maybe sexier, but messy. So I’ll start with the dry, which is that as much as you might want to be you you still need to recognize the freedoms that you can have. Because you might be working for a publicly traded company. And there are certain governance issues that won’t allow you to do everything you might wish to do. So you need to understand how you’re operating. Because that’s the room within which you have to move. It doesn’t mean you have to be false or less you per se but it it does need to be understood. Because you just can’t go in there and be a whippersnapper and cowboy because that’s what I want to do.

Murray Guest  1:00:04

Yeah. And that there’s a bit that I that you may get to but I know that this is something which I loved when you said this, this is about how to be personal in a professional space. And I just I think it’s even more important with all the zoom, the remote working, the working from home, people showing up with their laundry drying in the background, whatever it might be, you still need to be professional.

Minter Dial  1:00:28

100%, which is the second point. So I often talk about laundry, because the idea is you can go to work in a tie with a perfectly starched shirt. That’s been well ironed. That’s Pro, right. That’s, you’re looking sharp, you’re looking good. You got a big meeting. We read books by covers. So let’s be pragmatic. Yet do I think that of course, we’re no longer wearing ties. There’s space to wear the tie dye which shows that I happen to be a fan of the Grateful Dead. So I followed them. I don’t know if you know who they are Murray, but I followed them. For 10 years of my life. I shake my bones, smoked some funny looking cigarettes, and enjoyed 200 of these concerts. So the point is, I don’t feel like I’m just dissonant. I can wear a tie and a tie dye. But I’m not going to show you my dirty underwear. So the concept is you have laundry. You have the starched shirt, you have the tie dye that shows who I am. But I’m not going to show you any further. There are some things which just don’t go. So because you if I don’t tell you about the tie dye, I’m not telling you about me.

Murray Guest  1:02:00

Yeah.

Minter Dial  1:02:02

So you need to be able to get into the kimono, get off that starch shirt thing, which, you know, I’m buttoned down. I’m smart. I’m good. Yeah, yeah. Okay, but at a certain level a, you’re not authentic. And two, you will burn out.

Murray Guest  1:02:19

Yeah. And, and three, who are you? Really?

Minter Dial  1:02:24

I suppose that’s the biggest work of all of us. And, and, and it’s not like a destination. It’s it’s constant work. And as you get older you you do change, your hormones change, your relationships change and, and shit happens. And so it’s not like I’m guaranteed to know who I am tomorrow. I still feel like I’m on a journey. And so you’re right, that’s part of so I didn’t start with the tie dye when I was at L’Oreal. It was me, I was following the dead by then. But I wasn’t comfortable enough to bring it into the workspace, you know, telling people that I’ve taken LSD.

Murray Guest  1:03:02

Yeah.

Minter Dial  1:03:03

That was complicated. But I’m all in now. I’m not going to take LSD at work. Because that doesn’t seem like it’s a good idea just yet. Although, I think there is space for micro dosing, and the more. But I’m going to be able to talk about it because it is me, I don’t mind sweating. I don’t mind looking like a fool. You know, there’s like expression, dance like you’re not being looked at. Oh, boy. I do not look good when I do that. But I love it. And I’ve enjoyed that. And that’s what’s brought a smile to my face.

Murray Guest  1:03:40

Yeah. So be you. And be you understanding about where you are and who you’re connecting with. So be authentically you to a degree. So I think Brene Brown talks about, you know, with through vulnerability, and I just actually listened to her conversation with Barack Obama yesterday. It’s just fantastic. But she talks about that vulnerability. That doesn’t mean you know, live streaming your waxing and when you’re at the beautician, like there’s a level of vulnerability, And when someone shows that vulnerability and maybe they overstep, as a leader, how do you create that space to bring them back in and and support them and help them?

Minter Dial  1:04:31

Well, like contacts are so important. It all depends on the relationship you have that person already and so on so forth. I think there are things not to do. And and one of them is shaming people. That’s so easy to do. The little insight maybe is to explain how we used to have a 24 hour rule. So in our, in our values we were accountable to one another. And as an expression of that, we say, Well, if I don’t agree with you, Murray, here’s what’s going to happen. You said something in that meeting yesterday morning, I disagree with you. But I’m not going to disagree with you in the meeting. But within 24 hours, I’m going to have a call with you. And if I haven’t made the effort to call you or speak to you in person, 24 hours goes, the idea goes, the issues no longer.

Murray Guest  1:05:34

I love that. I love that.

Minter Dial  1:05:37

So let’s say, you and I had a confrontation in the meeting. Or, and for the sake of argument, you were pointing to me, I don’t need to scold you or shame you there. But I do need to within 24 hours get to you say hey, Murray, listen. You know, the thing you said yesterday in the meeting, or this morning, whatever? Not good. This is why, this is how…the how counts. I’m not sure, I saw you are being fidgety. Maybe there’s something else going on. You know, give give room for that kind of an experience, especially in these days. But I think every day, yeah. Cuz we can have shitty days bad sleep, an argument with the spouse, or whatever. And, yeah, that shit happens. And that has an impact on who we are. And we need to allow for that. Because, you know, want to be professional all the time. Yeah, sure. But, you know, sometimes personal stuff has a way of impacting you, whether it’s your hormones, or your relationships, you know, a sad person in your family, you know, like that, for sure gets you down. And the bravado stuff can last for a while. But afterwards, it’ll break down in the form of burnout.

Murray Guest  1:06:52

Yeah, so yeah. And, again, when you talk us through a process of how you create that culture, and those foundations for really working as an inclusive team, there’s a simple process that a team can just agree to, hey, let’s all agree that if we do have a disagreement or something that aren’t quite like that, something that we don’t align with, that we commit to closing that loop within 24 hours.

Minter Dial  1:07:22

And that is, the challenge, as I can recall it, is either you dictate it, or you co-opt it. So you allow for people to participate in the creation of your culture, yeah. Because at some level, you know, I was thrown in, I’ve flown in from Paris, I become this, you know, the big boss. And I could go in with, you know, well, this is how it’s going to be, because this is how I’ve done things, this is how I do things. Or you are flexible enough to figure out how you’re going to allow for other people to tell you how to be or at least how you to be within the context of this group. And so creating that type of culture. Well, it’s sensitive, because I mean, it depends on the situation, right? But I’m being flown in, I’m, I, I was looked at like a spy. Yeah, coming in from Paris, even though I have a Yankee passport. And I thought that I was bonafide. Uh uh, I had to earn my stripes. So when you’re in there trying to create that culture, what we tried to do was to establish together, what we thought would be the ways to express that. So we did little workshops. This is what we think this is where we should roll. And also, there’s another interesting point is understanding how you want to be with your customers. Because a lot of people say we need to be customer centric. But a lot of people make a mistake of not aligning the way they are internally with the way they want to be with the customer. So they say well, alright, it’s really important that we get back to all our customers within 24 hours, no matter what. Okay, everyone agree? Oh, of course. You know, that’s how we want to be. That’s a competitive advantage. All right. So just help me with a thing. The email I sent to you last week that you didn’t reply to. We’re asking for some help with understanding the margin agreement we had with that customer.

Murray Guest  1:09:34

Hmm. So yeah. Are we walking the talk authentically, internally, as well? Because Yeah, that then that opens up a really good conversation.

Minter Dial  1:09:51

In fact, it was well, I mean, for having lived this shit, you know, Murray, was it wasn’t just about having a 24 hour rule within our communications. Alright, so this is now with regard to being customer centric. Because if you want to get back to a customer within 24 hours, that actually means, depending on the business you’re in, you kind of have to have a six hour rule. Because I’m going to send you that message about the margin for the customer. And I’m gonna write, let’s say yes. And it’s gonna take some time that I get back within 24 hours.

Murray Guest  1:10:29

Yeah.

Minter Dial  1:10:31

So it’s not just walk the talk, it’s actually aligning your processes to what you’re trying to achieve externally. And that’s where things like, empathy become really interesting. Because we say want to be empathic with our customers, because we’re going to be customer centric, want to be in their shoes. Yeah, but are you in your salespeople shoes? Are you familiar with what their shits like? Because just ordering them to do it to make be empathic you shit. I’m gonna whip your ass until you’re empathic with the customer.

Murray Guest  1:11:08

And I’m just, I’m gonna force you to have fun, I’m gonna force you to be empathetic. Yes, and, yeah, that’s going to definitely not work, but unfortunately, does exist in some areas. At the moment, I think in some old style leadership approaches.

Minter Dial  1:11:27

Well, and frankly, the truth is, I’ve seen old people do well, and young people live that kind of life too. Cause these younger people, and I look at people who are, are hamstrung and stressed. And it’s very easy to fall back onto these Pavlovian style fears. And and whip it in because it’s quicker to say what I do. Working, listening to what you have to, fucking hell don’t have enough time for that.

Murray Guest  1:11:56

But that listening is vulnerability. Because I don’t have all the answers. I’m not going to tell you what to do. And I want to find out from you how you think we should do it? How are we going to make this work?

Minter Dial  1:12:08

And it takes just getting off a little bit the high horse. I don’t know it all. How can you help me? You small minion. Back to the charm we were mentioning at the very beginning of our chat, if you can have that ability, and actually the genuineness to want to listen and learn from the others? Oh, my gosh.

Murray Guest  1:12:32

Can I just say this has been fantastic. And it’s been a great, inspiring conversation. If I go back to the very start of the conversation, I think I was feeling a bit tired, you were a little as well, I actually have more energy now. Which is what inspired energy is all about. So thank you, thank you so much for your openness, vulnerability, storytelling, and sharing of knowledge and experience. I really, really appreciate it.

Minter Dial  1:13:02

Lots of scar tissues in there. Thank you for allowing me to share Murray.

Murray Guest  1:13:05

Oh no, they’re beautiful scars. There’s a lot of beauty in sharing those. I’ll make sure there’s a link to your new book, and your website in our show notes. Because that book will be out early next year. And based on this conversation, and what I’ve been reading about what you do, it’s going to be fantastic, and just what’s needed right now as well. To wrap this up, please let us know what is your definition of inspired energy.

Minter Dial  1:13:38

Inspired energy is knowing why I exist. And I sculpted this, took me a while, but my whole thing is about elevating elegantly the debate and connecting dots, people and ideas. And if I can do a bit of that every day, that is how I get inspired energy.

Murray Guest  1:14:02

I’m gonna borrow that one. I’m gonna quote you on that one. I love that a lot. Thank you so much Minter. That is a beautiful articulation of inspired energy. Wishing you a wonderful relaxing, resetting, connecting Christmas and all the best for 2021. But I’ll be chatting to you again next year. I certainly hope so.

Minter Dial  1:14:27

With pleasure, Murray.

Murray Guest  1:14:28

Thank you.