Episode 64 – Michael Fearne | Expert in LEGO Serious Play (Pivotal Play)

In this episode I chat with Michael Fearne, who is the founder of Pivotal Play, a facilitation consultancy in Melbourne, Australia.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Michael, welcome to the podcast. It’s great to catch up. It feels like so long ago since I met you in January of this year on the LSP course. So much has changed since then, how have you been keeping?

Michael Fearne  00:14

I’ve been keeping very well. It’s a lifetime ago, it feels like, it really was. But yeah, going well, obviously. Strange Times, but doing well, the family’s doing well.

Murray Guest  00:25

Yeah, I think that a main thing is that they’re all you know, well, healthy at the moment, and a renewed perspective on health and well being. I mean, you and I were just chatting even about our immunity and how important that is right now. But I also want to just start off the bat and say it was such a great course. And yes, we got to play with Lego. And yes, I learned about Lego serious play. But you also created a really good atmosphere over those three days connecting with different participants, and about the essence of play and how important play is. So I’m so glad that we can catch up and talk more about that.

Michael Fearne  01:02

Yeah, no, I love those three days, like I actually learned a lot myself, it’s probably the most favorite part of my, my working life. So yeah, it’s the people I get to meet like yourself and others, it’s great.

Murray Guest  01:14

So tell me, why are you so passionate about play? And how did you get to be in this position you’re in now where you are training people on helping organizations through play and Lego serious play? How did this all come about?

Michael Fearne  01:29

Wow, that’s a fantastic question. How did I get here?

Murray Guest  01:33

Yeah.

Michael Fearne  01:34

All these things. It’s funny, I was thinking, I’ve been thinking a lot about that, about how you get to where you are, particularly in these times. And I think it’s funny, I was thinking about the connecting the dots. So I know it was, I think was Steve Jobs, his 2005 Stanford commencement speech where he talks about, you can only connect them backwards, you know, you can never sort of see forwards. And so I’ve been thinking back to, well, how did I get to this point, like a lot of people think oh, Michael, you know, you play with Lego all day, and you get paid for it. And it’s fantastic. And it is, but it’s, it’s more about, like, where it all sort of started. And all goes back to when I was younger, and even even sort of, you know, growing up thinking about how I sort of learned to play and we all learn to play in lots of different ways. And I think that the play that I liked, and it was, you know, it wasn’t actually more solitary play. I don’t know if you knew this Murray but do you remember the Choose Your Own Adventure books?

Murray Guest  02:26

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So yes, used to borrow them from the school library and used to dive into them for the week or two weeks, we could borrow them. And then yeah, loved it. Loved it.

Michael Fearne  02:37

Yeah. And so that’s where I started, like, you know, you, for those who don’t know, it’s like, you know, you read a passage, and then you choose where to go in the book. It’s like you’re part of the story. And so that’s where I really started my love of playing and going along and showing my sort of nerdy sort of background, I ended up in other games like computer games, and it’s all throughout, I guess, my childhood, like a lot of people, you start to learn about play, that’s how you experience the world. And you sort of go away from it in that sort of, you know, maybe in your 20s, and you start to get into work and play gets sort of sidelined.

Murray Guest  03:08

All the seriousness of life comes in doesn’t.

Michael Fearne  03:11

It’s like we have this separate world. Well, we, when we’re younger, the things that just merge. So play is just your life. And then suddenly we split and we work and play. It’s this thing that happens in the evening, or it happens on the weekends. And it’s compartmentalized. And so yeah, I think for me, it’s been about bringing those sort of two worlds back together. That’s been sort of my journey. And that’s what I hopefully do for people like yourself that come along to a course or perhaps in my workshop, it’s about sort of bringing those two worlds back together. And so yeah, just looking back, you sort of connect all these dots. And I think, Oh, yeah, look back. And, you know, I loved, I love story. And I love play. And I sort of see all that in my work now.

Murray Guest  03:51

And I will obviously talk a little bit about LSP, which is the Lego Serious Play, because you’re right, it’s not just about creating, that I’ve learned, it’s about the story and the questions and the ability for people to communicate more deeply. But something has popped in my head, I just don’t want to lose the thought. It’s about that loss of play due to judgment. I think about when I take my kids to the park, and they make friends with whoever’s there, and then they play and and then they move on. But they just, they’re in the moment playing, having fun, or at home. And I think there’s something about that loss of play due to we start to worry too much about what other people are thinking, Oh, I might look silly, I might look foolish, and then we stop playing. What’s your thoughts on that? Do you think that that’s a part of what we’re talking about? 

Michael Fearne  04:39

Oh that’s a huge part of it. And it’s all the things that like Brene Brown talks about that being vulnerable and play is, you know, you’re ultimately vulnerable, like you’re sending out you know, these trust signals like, Oh I’ll try this and, you know, what will the other people think and that’s what you’re doing, play, and that just gets shut down quite often in work environments and adult life and so yeah. It’s almost like, we don’t dare to play, because we worry about the judgment of others. And so if you can sort of embrace that vulnerability, and just play and see what happens, then yeah, it opens up so many, so many different avenues and options and exploration, which is what we did when we were kids.

Murray Guest  05:18

Yeah. And I think about play in the workplace, in the sense of if you can play it psychologically safe. And I think there’s a big difference between play, which is, you know, tomfoolery, as we would say, in Australia, I don’t know if they say that overseas, but you know, just just fooling about, not doing your work, but the element of play to bring that into the work you do. What do you know or what have you seen, when an organization or team start to do that? What does it mean for them? What is it? What’s the impact?

Michael Fearne  05:51

Yeah, I think it’s a really good distinction to make about like the history of play in work, because you’re exactly right. It’s, it’s been a very separate thing. And we all know, yeah, let’s go and do the team building, go karts thing, let’s have a ping pong table in our, you know, in our breakout room, and that has some benefits, like, there are different health and well being benefits. But it’s, I mean, it’s still that separation, it’s like, let’s do play over there. Let’s do work over here. And as you mentioned, it’s, to me it’s about bringing those things together. And so what that means is, it’s almost think of it more as playfulness, rather than just play. So it’s like this, this lens that you can put on, this playful lens that you can bring to your work. And it’s not something that you do all the time, like people think okay, play at work is that that guy or girl that joking around and, and for me, it’s more about taking a playful approach to the work you’re doing. And that’s why I love something like Lego Serious Play so much. So it’s just the work that you’re doing, you just like layering in a playful lens to your work. And that gives you different insights, then you can sort of take the lens or take the hat off, and then, you know, do work in a different way. But I think, I think for me, that’s what is playfulness. And what I see is just what we talked about before, it just frees people up. Like, you know, I think the modern business manager for the last probably 30 or 40 years has been about squeezing efficiency, you know, get more out of that orange, more juice, and suddenly there’s nothing left. And that that only takes you so far. And I think what play can do is and and what businesses need is new ideas, new directions, like you don’t efficient your way to sort of innovative new products and services and delighting customers, like you just can’t squeeze enough. And so I think that’s what play can do for and does for organizations, it just opens up whole new fields and whole new ways of thinking that allows different different services, different products. And that’s that’s sort of what I do with my my work with Lego Serious Play. But I think play more broadly can do that in business.

Murray Guest  07:55

Yeah, I’m just reflecting on different teams I’ve worked in or with over the years. And it’s like, you know, when you walk into a room, and there’s been a joke told, but no one’s laughing. But you know, something’s happened. There’s been a joke, there’s an essence to that environment to that room. And I feel like play brings, that may be a bit of magic, if I may use that word and say, okay, we are connecting, we have a bit of fun, we are doing serious things. But we don’t have to be over serious about it all the time. And creativity, innovation, I’m just thinking how that comes out in those teams more easily, but also in a way that builds off each other. And I know when we play with Lego, and we build the models, and we add them we we let go of the ego and build off each one of those. So yeah, just hearing you describe that. And I’m just thinking about how that looks in those teams that embrace that. Because I think honestly, Michael, right now it’s needed more than ever, after what we’ve been through in the past three months.

Michael Fearne  08:59

Definitely. And all the benefits of it from in from everything from wellbeing, to new ideas to new directions. But yeah, it’s interesting to talk about like going to that team, and we talked about psychological safety before. Yeah, I think a lot of these things build on each other. So if you get a team that’s comfortable to explore together, and there is that psychological safety, then you can bring in play, and it just does, it just builds on each other and builds up and up and up. And you’re talking about ego as well, I think. I think what play does is you’re so in my, like if I could think about when you were a kid or like, like me with my little daughter, like you watch play. And then like you’re just so in play, like you’re in flow. And I think that’s what it can do. It can help you to get out of out of your own way. So we’re all, we’re all very in business, we’re all very used to not the facade, but we’re used to a particular norm and a particular way of acting and I think that that hides both good ideas and also who you really are. And I think what play does is it just breaks that down. So I talked about breaking the facade down. And yeah, when you when you play, you can’t help but be in it and be you and, and ego sort of goes to the side, the business ego goes to the side and everything starts to flow and come out. And I think that’s what you want, like you want ideas coming out, you want diversity, you want to hear what you’re saying and what someone else from the team is saying. And because ultimately, I think creativity and new ideas is about connection, it’s about human connection, but it’s also about just connecting different ideas. So they’ve got an idea, they’ve got an idea, let’s take a bit of this, let’s put it together, much like we do with the Lego bricks, put them together, and suddenly you’ve got something new, it’s just nothing, nothing just comes formed out of the ether. It’s always, it’s always the, you know, a mixture of the things that you’re exposed to. And I think that’s what play can facilitate, because we just get out out of out of our own way.

Murray Guest  10:53

So in a practical sense, let’s say a leader’s listening to our conversation and thinking, Okay, how would I bring play into my team? How could I have a more playfulness in our discussions or problem solving? What’s a simple sort of way that could look or a practical way that could look?

Michael Fearne  11:14

Yeah, the first thing I always say is actually look at yourself and your approach. So I think to start with mindset, and whether it’s the leader, or whether, you know, you’re wherever you are in an organization, I always say don’t don’t wait for the organization to embrace play and make it a standard operating procedure. Like I always say…

Murray Guest  11:34

I like that. Yeah, it sort of sounds a bit weird when you say like that.

Michael Fearne  11:38

Yeah. But I mean, that’s the thing with with play, and sort of innovative methods and things like that. No, no company, no big organization is going to say, look, we’re going to adopt this across the board. So for example, the stuff I do with Lego Serious Play, I’ve worked with some really interesting, even conservative organizations, but like some something like a KPMG, or an EY, or a big bank, or things like that, they’re not going to do the whole like, not the whole organization is going to do it. It’s almost like built into the organization as a system that they they can’t, like the whole thing can’t, as I say, bring it back to you personally. So whether it’s you or your team, and the first thing is a mindset. And the first thing is to think it just needs to be integrated. So I just need to think it will happen, you know, bringing in a play lens whenever I see a problem. So if you’ve got a problem, and your normal way of doing it is just not working, think about how I can do that playfully. And there’s, there’s more, you know, techniques, I obviously use just the one – Lego Serious Play – which I think is fantastic. But you know, there’s other techniques that people use. I love the simple question of how would someone else solve this problem? So how, how would Airbnb solve this problem, how we will solve this problem? It’s just, it’s literally just playing with different options. And it all starts with your own mindset. And I think if you can, if you’re a leader, you can role model that, then that starts to filter down and be part of the culture.

Murray Guest  13:00

Yeah, leadership shadow. Leadership shadow, or if you’re a project manager, and you’ve got that shadow, you cast over the group of people. And that shadows cast instantaneously isn’t it, when you walk in the room, through your mindset, through what you bring? And that either creates a potentially serious and very, you know, I guess, didactic relationship? Or is it a playful situation? So how you show up is going to set that isn’t it?

Michael Fearne  13:30

Totally, totally. And it doesn’t have to be you come into the room and crack jokes like that’s not…

Murray Guest  13:35

Yes, yes. Good point.

Michael Fearne  13:36

I’m a serious person, like I’m noticing I’m not even that hugely playful. But it’s about this mindset of, Okay, well, how can we look at this differently? How can I bring this different playful lens to the work and I think people actually, it’s funny, like in organizations people are just looking for permission to do it. Like, when I say you can do this, like whether it’s with Lego bricks, people like, it just opens them up, like, play is just so deeply embedded with people like, it’s it’s the skill that we’ve been learning the longest, like, literally, it’s how we interact with the world from when we can first pick something up and put it in our mouth. And it’s there. It’s just like, you need to give people permission or unlock it, or I think you can do that by role modeling. I think you can do that by sort of saying, look, let’s look at a more playful approach at this.

Murray Guest  14:21

I think a good distinction there, again, that you shared is it’s not about cracking jokes and trying to be funny. It’s the element of play. And I’d even I just want to add to that is it’s also about there’s a process to it as well. It’s not like, let’s just throw Lego on the floor and go and play with it. There’s, there’s a process that goes with that.

Michael Fearne  14:41

Yeah. And look, I think, I think in terms of playfulness at work, you can go either way, you can have a very structured process. I personally like that. And that’s what why I love Lego Serious Play. You come in and there are steps and it sort of channels that but you can do a sort of more freeform playfulness. So I’m thinking some examples of, there was Southwest Airlines in the US, I’ve listened to a couple of videos of some of the flight attendants, when they’re doing the safety stuff at the start of, you know, you’re on a plane you’re about to take off, they’re doing the safety stuff. And they they give, they give their people sort of sort of free rein to sort of liven that up how they want. And you think, Oh my god, you know, safety procedure, let’s lock it down, like say the exact words like, you’re in Australia, we have videos and but over there, like there’s a guy doing a rap of safety stuff. And what it does is it breaks through, you know, the normal, you know, boring safety stuff, and suddenly people are listening and they’re engaged. I mean, that’s just a little mindset thing that that obviously leadership in that organization says, look, be a bit playful with this.

Murray Guest  15:44

I think Southwest do it well, Air New Zealand’s the other one, Air New Zealand have a collection that I’ve seen that they do very well. And you’re right. Again, it’s about there’s a serious message there about safety that we all understand the requirements in a crisis or emergency on the plane. Yet, many people that fly a lot like you and I have, it’s like, I’ve heard this so many times, I start to, start to maybe tune out a little bit not paying attention. So when that playfulness comes in, it’s like, oh, this is a bit different. You’ve got my attention. And it’s interesting. And I’ll remember that, and we talk about it. So yeah, that’s a great example of a simple change but big impact.

Michael Fearne  16:28

Yeah, and what it does for me, something like that, it connects on a human level as well, like I’m connecting more to that person that’s saying it and more likely to then do that thing that they’re they’re talking about, because I’m listening more, but I’m also just connecting more as a human. And there are other I mean, other examples, quite often it’s environmental, like when you think of play in, in businesses, they, they often look to the environment to do that. And I think that’s another way. So I think you can do it just as part of your work. But there’s also an environmental aspect to it as well. So I know that a company like Pixar, obviously, you know, the animation studio, very creative, and they all work in in huts. So not your open plan office, they had these cool little huts. And I know another example is the Google offices in Sydney have got the lifts, you go out and you’re in the train carriage and have these little scooters that you can scoot around to different rooms and things like that. And I think what that shows is it’s not each individual thing that is not that important, but it just shows a playful approach to getting to the next meeting or playful approach to doing the work. And so whether it’s environmental, whether it’s process driven, as there’s lots of different ways you can bring in a more playful approach.

Murray Guest  17:38

I even think back to your example about the ping pong table in the breakout room, or in the kitchen. And I’ve just got this image in my head of people sitting in their cubicles, typing away on the computer, and then it’s lunchtime, they go and play ping pong. And then they go back to their cubicles. And it’s like, hang on. That’s that’s not what play is at all. That’s not what we’re talking about. 

Michael Fearne  18:02

Yeah, yeah, I think for me, that’s, it’s like a really fuzzy ROI. Like, yeah, there is something there, there is a health and wellbeing aspect to that, which I think is important. But I think we can integrate play with work much better. And just like I said, just do your work in a more playful way. And I think as other things I still think can be around. But it’s sort of not stuff that I’m super interested in. I’m sort of super interested in how we actually achieve outcomes, but in a playful way.

Murray Guest  18:28

Can I ask, did you have a connection with Lego when you were a child and so therefore, Lego Serious Play was an easy sort of path for you?

Michael Fearne  18:38

Yeah, so like, like a lot of people you know, sort of hitting that that middle age. So I’m 42 at the moment and I definitely played with with Lego. I remember the sort of the space Lego was a very fun one, the moon base plates and all sorts, I can remember all of those, that was the iconic ones from sort of childhood growing up in the 80s. So yeah, that was a big part of my childhood. But like with a lot of people, it, it sort of, sort of tailed off in my later teenage years. Like Lego, we’re very aware as a company that their products are, for a lot of people, tails off around 13-14. And look honestly through my 20s and early 30s I didn’t touch a piece of Lego at all, like I wasn’t, I wasn’t a big Lego nut. And I just came across Lego Serious Play as a facilitation method. And I thought, wow, like I had used playful methods before, I had even taken PlayStations to my workshops before and yeah, cool, got people doing karaoke. So I definitely was into the playful approach because I find it’s a good way of stealth learning. You know, people don’t really realize they’re learning when you’re doing it in a playful way. But then, yeah, when I came across Lego Serious Play it, it just ticked all the other boxes of, you know, making like a method of opening people up and all that sort of stuff. So but then, yeah, then I got into Lego Serious Play. And yeah, I have a lot of Lego, 1000s and 1000s of dollars, the good thing is it’s all tax deductible because it’s a business expense. But I don’t play with a lot of Lego myself. Like my daughter comes in and steals daddy’s work Lego, and plays a lot with that, which was fun. But yeah, I don’t. And the great thing about something like Lego Serious Play is it brings a lot of people that love Lego, and then it brings people who don’t love Lego but want the results. And it just is like a nice melting pot. And I think that’s what play can do. We all connect with it in some way.

Murray Guest  20:33

Yeah. So I remember after the workshop in January, and I was so excited and keen, and I think a few weeks later, I had a team workshop. And I brought my, my Lego Serious Play kit, which has 1000s of pieces, can’t remember now what we had in there. And I remember, it was quite a leveler for the team. Because a couple of people said, Oh, I love Lego, I want to dive straight in and someone else said, Oh, I’m no good at building and sat there. And then someone else said, I like to follow the plan. And then once I then, you know, went through, we’re gonna explore a question. And this is the power of what we’re trying to do here. Everyone sort of then came together in a way that they could then build and then discuss. And it actually, you could see that and I just, I loved it to see this shift in the way they were approaching the Lego as a as a tool to be honest, but also themselves as well.

Michael Fearne  21:31

Yeah, and, and that’s it, it’s so interesting. It’s almost like the Lego brick is, it’s like almost like a not a diagnostic tool. But it shows people’s relationship to play and their, their own mindset around creativity. And once you get past that, and you know, you realize that everyone’s got it. Everyone can play, everyone’s creative, everyone can tell the story. And once once you get that across the people and they experience and realize that it does all the things you’re talking about. Any I’m pretty passionate about Lego Serious Play as a method. And we haven’t really talked about you know much about what it actually is and things like that. 

Murray Guest  22:04

I was going to give you the, Give me the 25 words or less description here.

Michael Fearne  22:08

Well, it’s interesting I was doing this fun Lego Serious Play again a couple of days ago, and there was a guy who was sort of really instrumental in the in the early days of it called David Gauntlet, and he just described it as look, you just you just build things, and you’re talking about things. And I think that’s a really good way you use Lego to build sort of ideas and concepts and anything that’s in your mind, you can sort of get out as a 3D model. But you don’t do it in a literal way. You do it in a very story based metaphorical way. And there’s all these instructions about how you can do that and help to do that. But it’s a very sort of, very freeing method in terms of, it’s just getting what’s in your head out in some sort of object that you can talk about. And it sounds very simple. But once you’ve seen the power, once you do that, you you can externalize these ideas, then you can have conversations, and it’s easy to talk about something rather than being a head to head thing. It’s like, there’s an object that helps you to communicate.

Murray Guest  23:08

Yeah, and I know, from my experience on a couple of sessions, that it helps have the tough conversations as well, because like you’re saying, we’re talking about the model. And I think you even said during our program, Lego Serious Play helps construct the inside world versus the outside world. So we’re constructing the inside feelings, how I’m thinking, what are some of my emotions, and then I can talk about that in a safer way. And share that.

Michael Fearne  23:36

Yeah. Because it can be quite confronting when you’re, you know, whether it’s power dynamics, whether it’s something emotional, where you’re just talking, you know, person to person face to face, like that can be a very powerful, overwhelming, you know, experience for a lot of people where, if you can bring an object into it and allows you to talk through that, we talked about it being object mediated communication, where it’s like you’re talking through the object, and that it’s funny, all this very sounds, it all sounds so simple, let’s just use Lego bricks, and build and it is at the surface, but underneath, there’s just so many amazing things going on from the story and metaphor and new knowledge and flow. Like there’s so many amazing things that go underneath that I won’t dive too much into but it’s just, it’s satisfying to see it work time and time again. And I just go into every workshop with it going, I know it’s going to work because it has every other time. It’s so satisfying as a facilitator.

Murray Guest  24:32

I also think, well, while you’re not diving down, I know there’s that big link to kinesthetic learning. And and, you know, let’s, let’s put people in a room and tell them to sit down and learn and write stuff down. Versus let’s get them touching things, playing with objects, building, and I know the latter is going to be far more memorable and far more impactful for their learning and and connecting as people as well.

Michael Fearne  25:04

And I think what is, just you describing that there, what I’ve realized it’s just, it’s, it’s unlocking a lot of different ways of being that has been sort of restricted in the business world. So, you know, we’ve had these play skills which we don’t use it work, so we’re sort of unlocking that. And then when you talk about kinesthetic, it’s like, well, we don’t use our hands a whole lot. And so it’s just unlocking all these things that we all have, but for some reason, with business, we’ve sort of narrowed down what’s acceptable. And so it’s just, it’s just tapping into all the skills, you know, I’m sort of a more well rounded person, like a human connection, play, hands, all that sort of stuff.

Murray Guest  25:41

And I mentioned this at the start. And I think right now, it’s even more needed. Because I’m hearing so many people through COVID-19 and working from home and changing working conditions are rediscovering hobbies, rediscovering things they used to do, rediscovering bits that brought them joy, and a lot of that’s play. So art and craft and music. And like, you know, I’ve seen lots of people building Lego as well. And then it’s like, Okay, now let’s get back to work the way it was.

Michael Fearne  26:16

Yeah, it’s, it’s funny, like, it’s been such an interesting time. It’s, you know, it’s been, for a lot of people it’s been so very harrowing. But then it for you know, for others, it’s, it’s a thing that can open up a new world for them. And no, some people will go back to the way it was, some people want to hold on to that I’m just a big fan of change and adapting to change. And, obviously, you know, I run my business and so it’s always, you always sort of keeping on the edge of, of everything. But I just hope enough people really embrace you know, playful approaches like this and different. I mean, really, it’s a new way of working, this playful approach and I just don’t think it’s, I don’t think we should be building, rebuilding what we had, I think we should just be rebuilding something new because there’s other tools there and other ways of working that they can help to build so many different better worlds, you know, we’ve had in the past.

Murray Guest  27:14

Yeah. 100%. And what’s on your plate right now. So what’s coming up for you? What are you working on?

Michael Fearne  27:23

Well, it’s been interesting, like, I often talk about the sort of the, what I do, so Lego Serious Play facilitation, all of that. I’ve been diving a bit into the how I do it. So I’ve just finished my, earlier in the year finished writing a book, just going through the process of getting that published now. So it should be out later in the year. So that’s, that’s a real ‘how-to’ do all this stuff. The thing that’s really fascinating me, one of the things is the why, sort of why it works, why I do what I do. And so I’m already, my mind’s already going to another book of why these things work, probably should get the first one out. I think on a personal level, that’s probably for me is really diving into the why these things work. And I love that stuff. Now, that’s, that’s not particularly appealing to everyone and just, you know, often with what I do is it just works and people have it at a, you know, not at a high level, but it just works level. Whereas I really want to know why and the sort of depths of that. That’s one thing, the other side of it is community, like this time these last few months has just reinforced to me the sense of community and the communities that I mean, and particularly say with a Lego Serious Play community, I’ve started one of those, and I’m really, really diving into how to grow a community. So it’s yes, getting people like myself that are around the world and connecting them and how to promote that and do that. And this event we had just earlier in the week we had, you know, there was 68 people on a zoom call from 32 different countries. And it was such a, like the generosity and the sharing like it was just all free. Everyone was just, you know, the speakers, the participants, the people organizing. And so yeah, it’s something I think community is something that I was moving towards before this, but I think it’s really reinforced that. That’s where we’re gonna go. I think a lot of people are realizing that too. It’s like, it’s the human connection, you’ve all been listening.

Murray Guest  29:15

Yeah, I totally agree. And I even get the feeling that again, through the past three, four months that that connection, the appetite for it’s even stronger, and even on a global level, as you said, so it’s not just that, yes, there’s a connection next door, but then the connection around the world where we can explore those common things that we are passionate about. And I think also the appetite for doing things online is definitely changing. I mean, zoom usage has just gone through the roof. And their profit of course, but yeah, that’s changed as well. But just on that, I was going to ask something that popped in my head before, play with online training. We had a bit of a chat about this a few weeks ago, I know, um, what’s what’s your thoughts there?

Michael Fearne  30:02

Well, it’s interesting, you talk about the online stuff, because I like, like, to me, I’ve noticed that too, I’ve noticed that, you know, the acceptability of online, like, whether it’s learning, it was moving towards that where, you know, people were getting comfortable doing a lot more online. But this is obviously definitely sped that up. And I think that’s a good thing, because that just opens the world up even more. So you know, you can have 32 different countries in a room and things like that. So I think for me, that that’s going to be a focus for me as well. It’s like, well, how can I, you know, do more online and bring more people together? In terms of bringing play to online learning, I’m, I’m a big fan of, while I love online, I’m a big fan of hands and doing and building and physical, like, obviously, I use Lego bricks. So I’m always using the online stuff as a medium to tell people to do things in their space. Often, whether it’s Lego Serious Play, where I’m still getting people to build physically, just use the Zoom call, or the online call, or the online training to allow the communication of it. So I’m just a big fan of, you know, sending people off to parts of the house to get objects. And I mentioned David Gauntlet earlier in the call. So he’s a, he’s a professor in Canada, around creativity. And he runs these sessions where he literally gets people to get different objects from the house, bring them back, tell a story about them. And I think that sort of playful, creative approach of using what’s in the house, finding things, bringing it in, you know, into the online world, I think is the approach that I take and sort of recommend.

Murray Guest  31:40

So anyone listening that’s on any of my future online sessions, look out, you’re going to be getting stuff from places of your house and treasure hunt. Yeah, I know. We remember talking about that. But it’s one of those things just to bring into the facilitation, because I think it’s, it’s, again, the element of play and sharing. And obviously, you link beautifully to vulnerability as well. So yeah, yeah. Mike, this has been such a great chat. I’ve really enjoyed connecting with you, talking about your passion for play. And honestly, I get this childlike feeling when you talk about it, your energy for it. And you did bring into my awareness back in January, this word of neoteny. I think I pronounced it correctly. I hope so. So I, I just love what that is all about. And from my memory it’s about how as adults, we keep some of those juvenile characteristics. And I think that’s what you’re talking about.

Michael Fearne  32:43

Yeah, it’s all in us. It’s all still within us. And it’s been growing, it’s been developing for however old you are. It’s this sort of, the oldest skill is, is being a child and play. And it’s like, well just tap into it. It’s there. Everyone’s got it. I’ve seen it time and time again, play, stories. We all have it.

Murray Guest  33:03

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So just to wrap this up, I want to say thank you so much. It’s been, again, as I said, I get this, this joy and this buzz from our conversation. So I really appreciate your time. Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge. And I’m so excited about your book coming out. And I can’t wait to get a copy when it comes out. So make sure you let me know and make sure you come back on the podcast. So we can talk about your book as well.

Michael Fearne  33:27

Definitely, definitely. And yeah, I just wanted to say as well, Murray, like, always happy to chat about this with anyone. So if anyone in the audience just, I love play. I love talking about all this stuff. And seeing a more playful approach in the world just makes me happy.

Murray Guest  33:41

Fantastic, Mike, and thank you for that generosity. And just to wrap this up, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Michael Fearne  33:48

What’s interesting with inspired energy, so I think for me, the inspiration comes from people. I’m just, you probably don’t know this about me, but I’m at an extreme introvert, like I love my facilitator, but I come back home and I’m just like, I wind down, but I get inspired from the connections with other people. So I get that energy when I hear a story and that you don’t normally hear in business. And that’s what really inspires me. And when you say inspired energy, it made me think of something else, it made me think of aligned energy. Like I love what I do, because I don’t think of it as work. Like it’s just like, don’t settle for, you know, if you aren’t aligned, like find that passion. It’s almost like a cliche message that people send out now, but once you’re aligned with what you love doing and like, the energy just flows. Once it all lines up.

Murray Guest  34:40

I totally agree. I’ve asked this question over 60 times. And I love that definition of that alignment and how important that is because I’m a big believer in there’s no such thing as living a life of TGIF – Thank God it’s Friday. Let’s be TGIM – Thank God it’s Monday. I love what I do, and I get to do it every day. So I love that. So thank you, Michael. Thank you so much. And honestly anyone listening if you got something out of our conversation I hope you did, I reckon you would have because Michael’s passion certainly came across, please tag Mike and I and share it online, hashtag inspired energy. Again, Mike, thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate the chance to connect and chat and I hope you keep well keep warm, it’s getting cold and keep healthy.

Michael Fearne  35:30

You too, play well.