Episode 103 – Sam Cawthorn | Master Professional Speaker Trainer & Story-Shower

In this episode I speak with Sam Cawthorn, an incredible story-shower and renowned professional speaker whose mission it is to teach people how to master communication for influence.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  

Sam Cawthorn, welcome to the podcast, I’m really excited about us catching up chatting. I’ve known you for, feels like a long time, but it must be about five years. Is it five years?

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah, I think it’s been about five years, all I know it was actually in Costa Rica.

Murray Guest  

Oh it was before that, in Thailand.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yes it was in Thailand first, there you go we are both globe trotters aren’t we.

Murray Guest  

Thailand and then Costa Rica at a wonderful conference where you were speaking. And then we were connecting and chatting and dancing, I think I was dancing really well at the time. Is that your memory.

Sam Cawthorn  

There was a few shots as well. Are we allowed to say that?

Murray Guest  

You can, you can say that. And I’m happy to admit that you would have had more than me, because you know, I I don’t have that ability anymore.

Sam Cawthorn  

I don’t think our ages are too different, are they?

Murray Guest  

Just a little, a little. But mate, it is really good to see you. It has been a, as we were saying before we started recording, a bit of a challenging time for so many people but what I know is with you the challenges are part of the journey that you’ve embraced. How have you been?

Sam Cawthorn  

Look, it’s been really fascinating obviously I’m in the event space so I’ve been a professional speaker now for 17 years, you know, always traveling around the world speaking at conferences and then running my own event company. And then suddenly, then all of that ripped out from underneath you. It’s been difficult to say the least. I’ve certainly seen a lot of speakers unfortunately, they’ve folded their companies. I’ve seen a lot of event companies, unfortunately they’ve closed their doors. So our industry in general has completely been decimated. Though you know like like us all we will, we have to learn how to pivot and transition, and I’ve certainly learned how to do that and still learning today. Absolutely.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, how have you… So I’m very similar to you, I still remember March last year, where in the space of two or three days I had something like 35 to 40 days of facilitation cancelled, postponed, in a couple of days. So that hit me hard. And then that pivot to online, but I’m loving it. I’m loving what you can do online and reach people. What’s that been like for Speakers Institute online over this period as well?

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah, it has been fascinating because, you know, at first, everyone was embracing online, yeah let’s do it online, it’s the only way to do it, etc. And then towards the end of 2020 people were you know, this zoom fatigue. We’re going to wait until live events come back in, and then you know and then halfway through 2021 we then when, you know, in and out of lockdowns and and it’s certainly been difficult from a consumer behavior point of view, because in one breath they say yes, I want to come back to live events. We’ll then put on a live event and then no-one then shows up, but everyone shows up online, so it’s going to be a really interesting transition going back to live events. Though what I’m hearing more and more every one will be, it’ll be a hybrid world in the event industry. I recently did a did a conference where I was speaking in a room to about 40 people, but then there were satellites all around, all around the world. And so these satellites were, you know, there was a room in different cities, and they were watching through the screen and so then they had keynote speakers in one city and then another keynote speaker in another city and then another city. And so everything now, in the future what we’re going to see is going to be a hybrid model certainly in the event conference space.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. I also see the the thing that I’ve done a few times, which I’ve also heard a few people doing is this idea of with that hybrid model you’ve also got people that are sort of partnering up with people that aren’t there, virtually, and then what we’ve been doing is, Oh I’ve got that person on my phone, and then they’re with me and experiencing the event and going to the breakout discussions and moving around. Because there’s just a whole shift in the way I think people want to connect, it’s just totally changed, hasn’t it.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah look absolutely. A couple of things that we’ve done is that we still want to have that experiential experience, and on top of that we still want to hyper personalize experience as well. So what we’re now doing is where we’re actually sending through to all of our students, a locked box right and this is cool. And inside the locked box has all the physical things that they can touch, feel, taste, see, smell, but they can’t open it until such time as the conference starts and then we give them the code, and then they open it up and then they can experience it and then and there inside their own lounge rooms their own living rooms, etc. So we’ve sort of been looking at ways how we can think outside of the box, because that you know that that high touch, that analog, has to be married with the digital.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, I love that so Tammy is running her event online and doing the the box of goodies that she’s sending that out but it’s not locked. I’m gonna have to tell her about that that’s such a cool idea. Make the anticipation and the excitement building up that’s so great. Um, so, leadership, right now is tough. I shared on LinkedIn, the other week just around how people are feeling tired, so many leaders I’ve been talking to in coaching sessions talking about how they’re tired, people are tired, they’re feeling a bit of the overwhelm that you normally get towards the end of the year. Combine that with, are we locked down, are we not, homeschooling, caring for others. Based on your journey and what you know helps people get through the challenges right now, what would you say leaders could do, that’s going to be so impactful right now to support their teams.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah and, and look, you’re right, there is a lot of, you know, mental health, wellbeing issues, you know, even in the personal development space wellbeing is the number one topic on the planet right now. And that whole work life balance and and you know there’s a lot of people that are struggling. And not only that, even, even leaders themselves. You know sometimes we need to look in the mirror and think, Okay, what do I need to navigate through as well in order for me to be a leader worth following. So, so look I’ve written a lot of literature in and around this actually. I’ve written three books all on the area of resilience, positive psychology, but my key theme is all called bounce forward. And I suppose that so that it’s that whole concept that whenever you are in a tough time or a crisis or an adversity, a lot of the time we look for ways how we can bounce back out of it, how we can go back to where we’ve been and we always look at the good old days. Don’t we. You know, imagine when we’re back to in an office, when we’re back to you know things that are normal, when we’re back. And the reality is, things will never be how they were. And so for me, you know, a big, big part of my mind shift is to ensure that yes we have these tough times, these crises, these problems, but it’s not about going back to where we’ve been, it’s about bouncing forward into what we can become. So for me, that keeps the momentum, the anticipation, the possibilities of tomorrow’s world exciting, because it’s not about going back to where we’ve been, it’s about creating a brand new future. So, so for me I run a community of speakers, called Speakers Tribe. We have over 90 leaders that all volunteer their time week in week out. We have over 1000s of members in this community, and then learning how to how to lead these leaders that are all experiencing very similar things wherever they are in the world. It certainly is extraordinary, but one thing that has really helped me is high touch, meaning that every single week I will connect with them face to face through that screen on their, on their mobile devices. So I’ll send them through a video. And that video there is just really encouraging them, and then giving them some encouragement and also some advice, you know, here are three things to help you today, here are the 10 secret ingredients, he’s that he’s something that’s really helped me get through what I’m doing, and that more high touch that I’m giving them the more that they feel connected, and ultimately, the more that we together can move forward. So these are the few things that have helped me.

Murray Guest  

Yeah and I think the thing that I take out of that for leaders, and you’re a leader of your business, the leader of that community and all the 1000s of people that have been through the programs, is you make time for your people, and the busyness in leadership, I so often hear that I don’t have time for that but that’s actually the essence of your job, you know, to be there for you people, make time for it, so important. If someone’s listening to this and thinking, Hang on bounce forward just seem so foreign to me and weird as a concept, what’s the simplest thing they could do to help embrace a bounce forward mindset.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah, so there’s, so there’s a couple of principles that I talk about in the book. One that says that crisis creates opportunity. Now if we study throughout the last 100 years, and we look at all the significant crises that have happened all throughout humanity from World Wars to financial crises to downturns and the like. One thing you’ll find that derived from these moments were some of the greatest innovations, and some of the greatest of opportunities and possibilities derived from that moment, you know, there was a 34% rise of Australian millionaires in the middle of the global financial crisis. So what we know is that is that when it’s a problem, when it’s an issue, when it’s a burden, we tend to procrastinate dealing with it, we do, don’t we, we say, I know it’s a bit of a problem I know it’s a bit of an issue, I’ll deal with it when I have time. But get this, when it’s a crisis our biology links so much pain to it that says I must get myself out of it. And so for me it’s not a problem that creates opportunity, it is a crisis. So sometimes in the midst of a crisis we think Man, there’s nothing, nothing worse than that but I nowadays I think there’s nothing better in it. If you want change, if you want change, you must feel and experience a crisis. In order for you to think differently and innovate and create and see the possibility. So for me, I now look at a crisis in a different way. Yes, yes, it’s easier said than done, but, but yeah, look if you, if we all look at some of the crisis that we’ve had we you will see that some of the greatest of opportunities derive from that moment.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and there’s power in that language isn’t there. So much power, as you say crisis, I can feel it in my stomach, versus a problem, or, you know, a burden. Yeah, it’s not the same, is it. So much power in that. And as we are embracing the crisis and opportunity, can I ask are you a journaller, are you writing stuff down, are you doing voice memos, are, are you vision boarding, like to help you think about the future possibility, what works for you or what do you know what has worked for the people you’ve been inspiring.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yes. So, one thing that I’ve found is that every experience that we’ve had, there is a lesson in that. So, and not only a lesson but there’s also a lesson that we can teach other people. And really the essence of influence is actually grabbing people’s attention, and how do we grab people’s attention. It’s not necessarily by, you know, taking off your clothes or selling a health product, how to win people’s attention as leaders is that we have to truly give value. Now get this… value is not value unless it addresses the pain point or problem of your target listener. And now, income, right now is directly associated with how much value we give to humanity. And so and so for me, these, these experiences that I have, I learned something through that and I believe there are people out there that are still struggling in the things that we have overcome. There are still people out there that are crying out for information and advice in things that we already know. And so, the onus is on us, to actually share that. Now, a great way to share it is you know you can, like for me, I’m more of an audio speaker rather than a writer, even though I’ve written 11 books, four New York Times bestsellers, I am still more of an audio person, so I do a verbal vomit. And then I, and then I outsource and get people to write it, do the blogs, etc. And nowadays there’s so many great hacks that you can do, you know, you can grab your smart device, you can shoot a video directly in front of it, then you can outsource, get someone to grab the audio, there’s a podcast, get someone to transcribe it, there’s the written blog, and so that one piece of video content can then be distributed in multiple different mediums.

Murray Guest  

Value, value, value. Value, value helps solve that problem, that challenge. Where does value fit in with helping someone achieve a goal?

Sam Cawthorn  

Yes. So for me, obviously everyone’s got different goals, everyone’s got different aspirations, dreams, whatever that might be but, but again value is not value unless it addresses the pain point or problem of your target listener. So what are, you know, who do we want to attract whether it’s our team, our customers, our clients, our partner, and the like. But in all reality, they don’t care about your ideas, they don’t care about your, your message, they don’t care about it, all they care about is their own pain point and problem. So you address their pain point and problem, they will gift you their attention. And that’s ultimately how we influenced other people isn’t it. We influence them by addressing their pain point and problem straight up. If we can address people’s pain point and problem, then they will do anything at all that we will ask them to do because we’ve addressed their pain point and problem first. So for me, everything is about that. If you want to truly influence how the people whether it’s your team, your customers, your clients, you’ve got to find out where they’re at right now. And it’s a feeling in a way.

Murray Guest  

Yeah it’s funny I was coaching a leader in an IT team recently, like yesterday, and the whole understanding around how they internally influence and communicate was just being missed because they weren’t addressing the pain point to the internal customers. It was like, IT is this add on, this challenge, there’s this bloody thing we have to do, versus IT is here to help us to solve our problems and switching that around.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah and we have to get into their world and look I do agree with that with both IT and actually, by the way, IT is some of the hardest people to actually truly connect with because they’re so in their head, in their logic. But what we know is that human beings we’re emotional creatures. And so this is something I tell all of my students ready, is that we are in the business of emotion. We are. We’re emotional creatures, it’s one thing about influencing them through logic, it’s a whole nother thing about influencing them through their gut. So then that begs the question how can we ultimately connect and influence someone by not just informing them through their head in their logic, but actually inspiring and transforming them through their heart and through their gut. And ultimately we do that through story. Story is the greatest way to truly influence someone and win their attention, so you can get them across the line. 

Murray Guest  

The amount of leaders that I’ve been coaching for the last couple of years, when we explore the challenges that they’re currently facing, that reference, they want to be better storytellers, they want to be better at communicating what they’re doing, how they’re doing it, with stakeholders, with their team, with the management team that they might have to go into a presentation with, through stories, yet it seems like it’s such a challenge for them, like, like it’s a common thing and such a big challenge. Is it because of the I’m wondering out loud, thinking out loud here Sam, around that there’s bit of vulnerability. When you’re doing your storytelling, story showing.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah, it’s, it’s really interesting when it does come to vulnerability. You know the word vulnerability comes from the Latin word vulnerabilious, which means an open wound. And I believe you know back in the day 20-30 years ago what we wanted in our leaders was you know someone that had it all together, you know, look at me, just follow me, I’m going to be out the front and you just need to follow this big, strong, tall, manly, masculine leader. But you know something with it, we’ve seen a real fascinating shift over the last, you know 20 years and certainly today is that no longer do we look for those big strong masculine leaders, nowadays we look for leaders that are authentic, that are transparent, that actually open a wound and say hey guys, I’ve failed but you know something I’ve learned how to navigate that failure, let me share with you. And so that’s why story is such a pivotal part. The story, story is about hey, there was one time where I had the problem just like you. There was this one time when I was feeling just like you, and it’s about getting back on their level. Yeah, and now it’s about truly connecting with the mirror. Yeah. And then and then when you open that wound and share a story from an authentic vulnerable place, people are then going to think, wow, this person just like me, you know, they found a way how to navigate through that maybe I can too. That’s how you inspire someone.

Murray Guest  

I reckon I’ve heard stories of CEOs giving presentations or updates to the business from the kitchen table in the last 12 months, from leaders being so vulnerable and real about their situation right now with family, and this leads back to out of the crisis of COVID, the opportunity to be more real and authentic.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah, and also even just these, you know the movement of, are you okay day. The movement of mental health and well being, you know that the more that I know that my leaders can have also suffered as well the more that I think well, they’re also human. And they I can connect and truly relate to them, now I’m actually going to be inspired by them. So the more that that authenticity can shine through through a leader, the more that people will lean into what you have to say.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, 100%, which leads to story showing versus storytelling.

Sam Cawthorn  

So ultimately I wrote a book, a couple of years ago called Story Showing, how to stand out from the storytellers. And ultimately you know we’ve all heard of storytelling, we got to you know get to tell a story, got to be a storyteller. You know, it’s really interesting story has actually been had a quite a significant transition around seven years ago. Everyone was saying hey look, now we need to be visual storytellers, you know, and to be quite honest, we’ve been, we’ve been told what to do our entire life. We’re at home and our parents tell us what to do, we’re at school teachers tell us what to do. We’re in the workplace and our boss tells us what to do. And then all of a sudden we’re then being told we have to be story tellers. Yeah, so if I say, if I say to you, let me tell you something you versus me saying let me show you something. You know it lands totally different to the listener. I’ve suddenly gone from head to head now more heart to heart. So really the, the true essence of story showing is showing that you’ve experienced it, showing the emotion that you felt through that. And if you truly want to, you know, connect with head and heart, we have to, we have to stop just telling a story from a factual point of view, but actually really showing the emotional journey that you’ve been on, and that’s true transformation and so I regularly talk about the hero’s journey and, and if you’re listening, you know you’re going to write this down for three part really simple. The first part there is just simply the setup, and so the setup is sort of painting a picture, this is the year this is the place this is the date, this is, you know, this is who it was, yeah. So just this, the setup and then the second part here is the kairos moment. Now the Kairos is the Greek word for time. So contrasts into Kronos or you know chronological time, you know, meaning, ordinary or normal time. Kairos time is laden with meaning and choice. So get this the dictionary the meaning of the word Kairos, is this a moment within a moment, it’s a moment within, it’s like a sliding doors moment. Yeah, so ultimately that Kairos moment in the hero’s journey is that moment within a moment where things changed. Yeah. So there’s this one time when at 4pm blah blah when I was sitting down, there’s this one when I opened the door and I saw, you know so that moment within a moment. And then the third part of the hero’s journey is ultimately the resolution, what did you learn, what did you catch, what did you, what did you upgrade, how were you transformed through that experience. So there’s three parts, the setup, the kairos the resolution, really simple to marry that story, you know, showing ability to ultimately connect with any, you know, any staff any team any client any customer, even your partner if you want to influence your partner be a story shower.

Murray Guest  

I’m thinking about the leaders I work with where they are trying to run effective meetings, connect with their people, connect with their teams, and, and how the again with the busyness and the the pace of slowing down, and really thinking about that kairos moment, and the power that comes from that, that moment within the moment because that as you said, that’s where you can really tap into that heart and gut connection.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah look, and it’s really interesting. A lot of people they say hey look, why do we need a $10,000 keynote speaker to come in and speak at our event when we’ve got local staff and local team, we’re going to manage them, leaders, why don’t we need a $10,000 speaker to come and speak. What’s so good about their stuff. Go and get an academic from from university that will charges a couple 100 bucks, and they’ve probably got more more content than this, than this $10,000 speaker, and, and the reality is, is they are right, the university lecturers have way greater content that’s grounded in better research than most professional keynote speakers. But the reality is that, that you lecturer’s certainly know how to make you bored. Well, they will certainly you know put you to sleep. You know, one, one thing that when it does come to all forms of communication is not just the content what you say. It’s the method, how you say it, and they say everything from from tonality to facial expressions to body language. And the reason why I get paid the big bucks, is not because I have the greatest content in the world. It’s because I’ve learned how to deliver the little that I know in a very powerful way that wins people’s attention. It’s like edge of the seat thriller type stuff. Yeah. And so you open hearts and minds to really transform.

Murray Guest  

I can go back to, when was it, five years ago when I first saw you on stage, and it’s about the feeling that I had not what you said. And the uncomfortableness, or the hanging on to the word. And I still remember in your first time I saw you on stage, the pausing, to hold that space. And then that that’s what I’m thinking about when you talk about methodology, and holding that space for that to sit and to feel that, I have no idea what you said, but the feeling.

Sam Cawthorn  

Actually guys go write this one down ready, it is a good one, ready, the longer you pause, the more intelligent you come across. How good is that. And so yeah, look, you’re right, Murray, you know, we’ll forget what you said, but we’ll never forget how you made us feel. Yeah, and so we need to be in the business of emotion, if you want to be a better leader, learn how to emotionally connect. How do you emotionally connect, be a better story shower. And this is a skill that can be learned. A lot of people say are Sam you were born with the gift of the gab. No I wasn’t. I was that shy kid up the back of the classroom, that didn’t like show and tell, I didn’t like standing out, I was insecure, I had zero confidence. And so I learned this as a skill, and I believe everyone can.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. And and you don’t learn it overnight. There’s 1000s of hours of learning to get to the point as you said, where you are captivating the listener and the audience on stage. I want to ask you a tricky question. So it popped into my head as we’ve been talking and I was mindful of really listening because I chatted recently with Oscar Trimboli about deep listening, great guy. But the question is, so I’ve, I love what you are talking about and I love your positivity and around your positive anticipation for the future. However, I know at times that we can be at our darkest or hardest moments. What do you do to get out of those.

Sam Cawthorn  

So I live with a disability. I’ve only got one arm. I lost my most dominant arm in a car accident a few years ago. So, and it was amputated above the elbow. So I used to be a dominant right hand and now all of a sudden I’m a left hander. I also wrecked my right leg so my right leg also doesn’t work at all. Every day I’m faced with thing which we call phantom pain. So basically, basically it’s like the worst pins and needles that you’ve ever had in your entire life, you know 24/7. And so there’s a thing which we call cognitive dissociation, which basically means what we focus on is what we get. And so for me, you know, going through my car accident. It was now a bit over 16 close to seventeen years ago it was actually, you know, they say crisis creates opportunity. That’s how I started speaking, I started keynote speaking straight after my car accident because after my car accident they said hey look, why don’t you come and share your story in a local youth group, local school. I said okay, I’ll come and share the story and then and then that’s actually how I became a keynote, so it’s quite funny, quite ironic really, but, but yeah, look, I think we all have, you know, those, those times where we do just want to give up. And, and I think my parents, you know, taught me, you know, and this is very much a character trait. Is that is that is that I’m always living a very grateful life. So I’m a really simple guy in my heart, meaning I was born and raised on a family farm in Tasmania, you know, and, and it was very, it was a very basic lifestyle and so for me I still want to keep those core values and that character within me so I’m very I’m a very grateful guy, you know, I’ve still got one arm and one good leg, you know, what do I have to complain about, I’m about to, next week I’m speaking on stage with Nick Vujicic, you know, the guy that was born with no arms and no legs and he’s one of the most positive people I’ve ever met. And so for me, for me it’s really you know what you focus on is what you get. Yeah. And so, and so the moment that I do have those times where I might feel like giving up or those times where I don’t feel like, you know, getting out of bed or even giving my kids a hug. I, you know, I think to myself, Wait a sec I’m so grateful I’m alive today, there’s a lot of other people that have died through a car accident. You know I’ve got I’ve got a wife that loves me, I think, I’ve got kids that you know that that respect their father, and, and for me so yeah so I’m just a simple guy, for me it’s just gratitude. Everything is based, first and foremost in just being grateful, and so that has really helped me to give me a reality check every time that happens,

Murray Guest  

So simple, so powerful, and what I’ve learned over the years is, and I think we might have I’m sure we’ve talked about this at some stage, is heightening your sense of gratitude or lowering your bar of gratitude. So, and what I’ve taken from that is, I’m grateful for the simplest things in life, you know, where we used to live, you’d wake up, and we had a wall next to the bed, didn’t have a window, upstairs in this little miners cottage. Now, I can look out the window in the morning when I wake up, and I’m just I’m grateful I can look out the window in the morning, and that starts my day in a positive mindset of being grateful for those little things that build up.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah, I love that hey. And it is, I’m grateful that I’ve got a roof over my head, I’ve got food in the fridge. I’ve got, you know clothes on my back. I got a little bit of money in my wallet. You know I do a lot of charity stuff in India. And far out man I see these, I see these families that have got absolutely nothing at all yet I see this joy in their face that I haven’t seen in a western world so it’s just the reality of it all. It’s just fascinating.

Murray Guest  

Well, I think, finishing on this element of Gratitude has been a beautiful way to finish such a great conversation. We’ve covered heaps. And I say that with respect of the pace of, you know, having such an inspiring conversation. And, and I am so glad that we’ve made time to catch up. Because you are a busy man.

Sam Cawthorn  

Murray, you have always inspired me. I’ve enjoyed our trips overseas together. I’ve enjoyed our relationship and our friendship. I’ve enjoyed our games that we play in your home with your beautiful family.

Murray Guest  

Let’s just be clear, I believe, I owe you a chess match because I think you won the last one, I think, is that correct.

Sam Cawthorn  

I actually don’t remember. Did I actually win, or did you win. I thought you won? You are very good at chess but I think it’s blockers, yeah look, we have we have some really really good times but I think that’s also, you know, just bringing joy and relationships and friendships into it into our world I think it’s, it’s really really important and obviously our wives get along well, which is always a bonus.

Murray Guest  

Oh beautiful and you have an absolutely beautiful wife. I have two key questions to finish this great conversation. One is, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Sam Cawthorn  

Sorry I thought you were gonna ask the second one at the same time, but let me answer the first one first. So, so I think energy is everything, you know, when you walk into a room, when you walk to your partner, your team, your you know, into a meeting and the like. There is energy around you, whether it’s the vibration of that energy whether it’s energy in your eyes, in your face, everything is energy. And, and you know we know straightaway if someone has got a defeated energy or someone who’s got an inspired energy. We feel it we sense it we all have this sixth sense, and the like. And so, I feel, if you want to be a leader worth following, if you want to find ways how you can influence other people and people subconsciously are inspired by you know your every word that you say, it’s about showing up and it’s your internal locus of control so that’s why yeah that’s how I see inspired energy. It’s something that you can’t necessarily see, but it’s certainly something you can feel.

Murray Guest  

Oh I love that so much. Thank you. Such a definition that captures the exploration of inspired energy I’ve had in previous conversations, but I think you’ve done a fantastic job in capturing and bringing all that together. I know you’ve got a quite a number of presences online, but where would you like to direct people the most to, if they want to know more about Sam Cawthorn and the amazing work you do.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah so I think there’s two, if that’s okay. One is obviously just Sam Cawthorn, type Sam Cawthorn anywhere and you’ll see some books and my speaking and the like. And then the other one obviously is Speakers Institute. So I run a training company that actually trains people how to share, how to tell more powerful stories. I train people how to be a communicator, how to how to do a TED talk, how to, how to communicate more effectively to influence other people so if you just type in Speaker’s Institute in any social media, any website, any browser, you’ll see.

Murray Guest  

I will make sure those links are in the show notes, and definitely check out Speakers Institute has got some amazing programs, as Sam said, to show your story, connect with hearts. Sam. Awesome, great to see you. Keep well, and I look forward to seeing you in 2022.

Sam Cawthorn  

Yeah, let’s do it Murray, great to have me. Thank you.