Episode 112 – Rupal Patel | CIA to CEO

In this episode I speak with Rupal Patel, an ex-CIA agent turned business owner who helps her audiences leverage the CIA mindset to remake the rules of success.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  

So tell me about the book launch yesterday.

Rupal Patel  

It was, well, so I’m a first time author, and have always loved to write have always been a writer in some capacity. And so having my first published book was a huge deal for me just emotionally. And then, you know, getting to celebrate it with total strangers, with people who I’ve known for a long time. And everybody in between was just, it was amazing. And one of the coolest things was, I don’t know for you, Murray, but like in here in the UK, the past few years, obviously have been full on which I’m guessing we’re the same there too. But I found myself connecting with so many people online, and effectively picking up friends online, just through, you know, events that you would attend or random conferences, or whatever it was. And so, it just became so normal. That yesterday when I met some of these people in the flesh for the first time, it was a bit of a like, but I feel like I’ve known you forever, you know, like, it’s, it was just it was a really cool experience. It was it was wonderful, and really buzzy great people, some great conversation, really wonderful for me to be able to celebrate, you know, having a published book. And yeah, I, as I said, before we started recording, I’m still writing.

Murray Guest  

It’s so great that you’ve got the book out. And I mean, from CIA to CEO is such a great title. I love it. I mean, it draws me in straightaway. And so what’s the journey been like to get from, you know, the original concept of the book and writing that to now launching it? What’s that journey been like for you?

Rupal Patel  

It’s been mostly amazing. And a bit of an emotional roller coaster. So the practical side of things has been actually really fast and really straightforward. So the ideas in the book have been in my head, and things I’ve been talking about, things I’m working with, I’ve been working with clients with on for the better part of the past eight years. So that was all sort of percolating in the background. But what took me quite a lot of time and effort was, surprisingly, not the writing itself, it was getting into a structure. Because I had so many ideas, I had so many things that I wanted to share and to contribute. And it just, it felt like, there was so much and I just didn’t know how to put it all in a in a coherent structure. So that’s what took the longest time that that process, I would take took the better part of six months. And then once I got that structure in place, the writing was an absolute breeze, it took not that long, it was me and my flow and my zone of genius, whatever you want to call it. So that part was just wonderful. But yeah, what was the hard part of the journey was the getting the structure right.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I’ve got you. Okay, so I am so honestly, looking forward to reading the book and real transparency, haven’t read it yet. But I’m so, because honestly, it’s a different perspective on the podcast, and I’ve met lots of people that talk about leadership from different angles, from corporate and military. But what you bring in your experience in the CIA is very unique. And I love that you’re bringing that to people that really understand the skills, the tools, and you know, your experiences to help people as leaders in their own lives.

Rupal Patel  

Well, exactly. And you said it perfectly, because it’s not just for people who are leaders who have that title, or who sort of see themselves as leaders, it is quite literally, about literally about leading your life. So being a leader of your life, but also living the life that you choose that you design for yourself that you very consciously make the choices about. And so many of us don’t give ourselves the time to do that, to really think about, you know, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? Is this somebody else’s plan for me? And or is this something I really care about? Am I showing up for my values? It’s all of these big and big questions, some small, but some very big, we don’t really take the time to answer them. And so the purpose of the book is to really force people to take a pause. And you don’t have to be a leader or CEO to do this to take a pause and reflect on your life, on yourself. And then just start making small and incremental tweaks so that you can live more authentically, more powerfully and just with less friction in your life in every way possible.

Murray Guest  

And I feel like the journey that we’ve had as a society for the last couple of years. You mentioned before about what COVID has been like in the UK, Australia, obviously very, very similar. And I think that authenticity, that getting back to who you are has just rang true and true as something that people really need right now. How have you been through COVID and lock downs and all that? What’s, what’s life been like for you?

Rupal Patel  

It was full on. So I was pregnant with my second child. Basically, that whole first year of lockdown. So early 2020, and we had a toddler, a young toddler at home. So it was exhausting in every way possible. For you know, for lots of reasons, because of what was happening in the economy, in the world, our business was just going through a lot of challenges. So it was mentally taxing, emotionally taxing, plus, having a very active, very sociable three year old on our hands, trying to keep her entertained and educated. And thank God for Bluey. Right, and thank God for telly you because to be honest, there were long stretches of time where we would just plant her in front of the telly, because we had to work we didn’t have the luxury of being furloughed, or you know, all of those things. So it was really tough. And there were some really, really just dark times and times where guilt would overwhelm me, I would feel guilty that, you know, I wasn’t doing enough for my daughter, I would feel guilty that I wasn’t doing enough for business, I would you know, all of this stuff just compounded and not having the outlet, not having the social network, not having, you know, everything we’ve that we all went through, it was just really tough. It was really tough. And thankfully, in hindsight, it felt like it went very quickly. But in the moment, it was like, time just was it was like wading through molasses, you know.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha. I think on my own personal reflection, I think about the community element, the personal connection. And that really being challenging for me, I’m I’m very much a people person, I love my, you know, my close friends, and just the, I guess a lack of opportunity or choice to connect with people being taken away, I found that challenging at times.

Rupal Patel  

Yes. And for me, I’m also I’m very similar to you and I also the physical side of things like not hugging people, but not even, one not seeing them. But not just having that just that like sort of that loving touch, you know, with a friend or even a family member, and just seeing my husband and daughter for large stretches of time. It’s just too much. There’s no family in the world that needs to spend that much time together, no matter how much you love each other. You know, and I say this slightly flippantly, but at no point in human history, has that ever been the case for families see nobody other than themselves, you know. And so that was tough. It was just really rough.

Murray Guest  

I totally agree. And, and I talked to some of my clients and leaders I work with around that third space. So you have your workspace, your home space, and that third space where it might be going for a walk, going to the gym, or a ride or reading a book in the park doesn’t matter. But that third space is so important for that health of those relationships. And that’s been so hard.

Rupal Patel  

Yes, it really has, there were times where I would just ask my husband, sometimes not so kindly, basically leave the house and take our daughter with him. So I could get some of that third space for me and I and I, you know, again, without being too dark and glum about it, there were some difficult conversations. But I think that were really helpful in that time. Because, like you said that protecting that third space is so essential. And I am an incredibly high energy extroverted person, but I need to recharge by being alone and not having distractions, not having anyone physically around me. And so recognising that and then having that tough conversation of like, basically, can you get the hell out of my face for a little bit? It was it was important to do it. And now you know, my husband and I have a better understanding of just the type of space and the amount of space and the quality of space that we both need. And I don’t know if that would have that conversation would have ever happened, had it not been forced on us to have that conversation.

Murray Guest  

That’s a great point that I’d like to think that COVID generated some opportunities for people to have some really important conversations about what’s important to me, what’s important to you, so that people can understand that at a deeper level. And you sound like my wife because Tammy had said to me a few times she said I don’t know what that is but go for a bike ride. Get out on your bike, you need to get out.

Rupal Patel  

Yes, exactly. Exactly. The thing that saved our marriage was my husband going for midnight bike rides for long stretches because that was his third space and yeah, like you said it’s it’s with all challenge comes opportunity and thankfully once we made our peace with the challenges and sort of started to get them a bit under control. We were, we created a bit more space to have those conversations and to take those opportunities.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, fantastic. And how are the how the children going now?

Rupal Patel  

They’re amazing. I am very lucky. So it was tough on my, my toddler because she, you know, she, for a long time would get really scared to see strangers and we’d be out in a park. And she’d see people coming in, she’d freeze, and she’d run back to me, you know. And so, as a very naturally outgoing, sort of sociable girl, it was hard to see that and I think it did leave a bit of a mark that I think though thankfully, she’s, you know, children are so resilient. And she was just old enough where we could sort of explain to her what was going on. So she’s now you know, she’s absolutely flourishing. And then the baby that we have during COVID is, is now 19 months old. She, yeah. And she is, she’s just a riot. She’s super high energy. She sort of was born into a world where she couldn’t see half of people’s faces for large stretches of her life. But now she can, she’s just rolling with it. So thankfully, both of my girls were old enough or too young to have really been hit by it on a very deep level, I think. But yeah, they’re both they’re both fantastic. And thank God for nurseries and schools. Now that they have that structure back in place, I think it makes all the difference in the world.

Murray Guest  

Totally agree. Totally agree. So, so great to hear. I have to be really honest. So I’ve just put myself in your husband’s shoes with three girls in the house. I wonder how he’s going.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, he’s he’s a very patient man. He’s very, I’m very lucky with my my immediate family and extended family. But he’s, he’s the perfect counterbalance to me I’m very high energy and very, very, yeah, just very high energy, where it seems just he’s got this cool British setting, mostly unflappable, he is just the coolest cucumber, but the second you tip him over the head, you better give him a wide berth, because you do not want to be there when he explodes. So he’s got that fire. But most of the time, he’s just even tempered, which makes a huge difference. Having three very strong willed girls and women in his life, I think he needs to be that kind of person.

Murray Guest  

Sounds like a good man. That’s for sure. Yeah. So I’d like to know a bit more about your transition from CIA, which is obviously something we could talk about, and I’d love to. Part of me is like, I’d love to know. And part of me is like, oh, there’s probably parts you can’t talk about.

Rupal Patel  

Of course, well you can ask, and I won’t tell you what I can’t tell you.

Murray Guest  

But tell me about your life in the CIA. What was that like?

Rupal Patel  

It was phenomenal. It was one of those, those, that period of my life where quite literally, I would wake up at five or six, whatever time it was in the morning, and be genuinely excited to get to work. It was one of the most formative and just life enhancing experiences of my life. And I got to work with brilliant people, like just some really, incredibly big brained and very, yeah, just brilliant people, I got to do really exciting work that was meaningful to me, because I have by sort of my university and sort of educational training, study politics and foreign policy. And so it was fantastic for me to actually find a practical use for that very sort of intangible skill. I love to learn languages, I love to live in different countries and really understand how cultures operate and, and really just analyse the world and think about it and be able to, yeah, just critically assess what’s going on. And so it was a dream job in every way possible. Plus, I got to do some really cool training in like weapons and tactical driving and you know, all this kind of stuff, that as a normal human being, you don’t really know how to treat a sucking chest wound, you know, your normal onboarding process at most jobs. So it was fantastic. And I think for me, fundamentally, what made it so powerful and such a compelling sort of part of my life was the sense of mission, the sense of common purpose, the sense of doing work that mattered. And yes, of course, as with any career, there were ups and downs, especially in a very politicised organisation, not internally politicised, but externally, where everybody had a view of what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. And you can’t always defend yourself because most of what you do is classified and so you just sort of have to take the criticism on the chin and acknowledge that well, they are operating from what they think is the full picture but they don’t really know. And surprising or maybe unsurprisingly, that’s been a really important lesson that I brought with me into my career as a as a CEO and in the work that I do with my clients is this understanding that no matter how smart we are, how capable, how well trained, there’s always a part of the picture that we just don’t have. So it’s not to, to sort of throw our hands up in despair and, you know, sort of paralyse us, it’s more to acknowledge that we don’t know everything, we don’t necessarily have all the answers, and specifically for leaders who feel like they have to be the one with the solution and with the answer, it’s like having the humility to acknowledge that actually, well, maybe you don’t have the full picture. And because that is true, allow others to contribute to the process, the solution, that whatever it is, and recognise that all of the best ideas don’t necessarily come from you. And it’s having that humility to learn.

Murray Guest  

How does, how do you think a leader takes their ego and parks that? And has that curiosity? Because that’s a challenge I do see. 

Rupal Patel  

I think so much of it is, we’ve created this social expectation of leaders as and we put a lot of demands on them, you know, they’re the ones who are the visible, sort of whipping boys when things go wrong. And they’re also the ones who don’t really get the credit when things go, right. And so, I think fundamentally, as a society, one we have work to do in how the sort of the stereotypes we create around what we expected our leaders and what we demand of them. But then secondly, as leaders themselves, I think, look, not all leaders are, you know, sort of, Oh, it’s my way or the highway, but the ones who are I think benefit from, you know, a bit of a, I guess, again, from having like, some organisational safety, you know, whether it’s from the board or from their team or whatever, to take risks to acknowledge when they don’t know the answer is to say, I don’t know, but then also to start practising that very difficult thing of allowing people to challenge you and inviting those discussions and not surrounding yourself with sycophants and yes men and yes women, but inviting debate and discussion. And, of course, as the leader, you have the final say, it’s not to say that other people make the decisions for you, but to at least allow the input and to create a culture in your organisation of conversations going both up and down, is really important. I think sometimes it might have to be enforced, if that’s not your natural leadership style. But I do think there’s a growing understanding and a growing awareness amongst leaders that they do have to engage with others just more more often and more substantively because especially of everything that’s happened in the past few years, and we’ve proven that some of the things that we thought were just golden truths about how people work and what they need, and all this stuff have been disproven, right, you know, and so, the shakeup of the past few years, I think, is inviting and allowing a lot of really important conversations to start. So I think that’s one way. And then secondly, for leaders, I think, too many leaders and a lot of just high achievers in general, really, really conflates their identity and their sense of self with their title and their position. And doing the work to divorce that to say, Okay, well, my value as a human being is not only because I’m the CEO, or I’m the Managing Director, or whatever, and starting to play around with that concept, even even if just mentally in your own head, can be really healthy. Because all of a sudden, a challenge or someone else having an idea or bringing a solution to the table that didn’t come from you isn’t a threat to that identity. It’s just another idea, another solution, another voice, as opposed to it undermining who you are as a fundamental human being. And it’s so hard because so many people. And you know, I put my hands up and say, I used to do this as well. It’s like, I don’t know who I am if I don’t have a company behind me or a title behind me. And it takes a lot of work to, to separate your sense of self from what you do.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I had a conversation with a leader earlier this week around a similar challenge where there was some changes around how they’re organising their work. And there was that sense of, Well, if I get this person to do that part of my job, well, then who am I? What’s my identity? Where do I add value? And it was like working through that. Because there was like that whole challenge of well, that’s who I am by based on the work that I do. Yeah, the bit that you’re saying without saying it, which I love is this bit around how do we as leaders slow down and have these conversations and explore it? Without just as you saying, I’ve got enough data, let’s go, I’ve got enough data. Let’s go. Actually, let’s slow down and explore a bit more.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly. And also, you know, just taking the time to explore internally what’s going on because again, like you said, with data, we are bombarded with data as leaders, as just normal human beings living our day to day existence. And one of the things that I found to be so powerful and that I sort of brought from the CIA into my work now with other leaders, is this idea of tactical ignorance. So instead of just swimming and drowning in all of the well, data masses information coming at us, it’s really important to start developing that skill of knowing what is noise, and knowing what is the signal, and then choosing to ignore all of the noise. 

Murray Guest  

How do we separate the noise from the signal? How do I do that?

Rupal Patel  

Well, I think fundamentally, it comes down to knowing what is the end goal, right? So for example, you know, I’ll give you a very personal example, when I was operating in the field, one of my jobs was to brief a four star general who was the commanding general of US and international forces in an active war zone. And I’m a civilian 20-something woman going to brief this, you know, highly decorated four star general in his sort of home turf, right? We’re in an active war zone. He knows what he’s doing. Yeah. So there’s so much noise around that, right? He’s so important. He’s a four star general, I’m just a lowly civilian, and I’m only 20 years old, well not 20, I was in my 20s. You know, all of that stuff around seniority and age and experience, etc. That could have, that is all just noise, right? That was part of the bigger picture. But it was creating all of this noise in my head. But the signal, what was important that I needed to focus on and ignore all of that other stuff was, well, what is my job? My job is to go in and brief him on our most recent analysis of what’s happening in the war effort and answer his questions as best I can. So my job was to focus on that signal, to focus on that job, to focus on the outcome, the mission at hand, and ignore, very consciously ignore all of that other noise, all of that other stuff about hierarchy, and seniority, and who’s who, and all that kind of stuff. And everybody in every situation, and then again, especially over time, you you start to develop a feeling for it, right? You want you can sort of intuitively understand well, actually, if I get to the crux of the issue, this is what’s important. So all of that other stuff. For a lot of leaders, you know, a lot of leaders do sort of suffer from what I call comparisonitis, right? They’re looking at other companies, they’re looking at other leaders that you know, the growth trajectories of this business, that’s all noise, that is a total distraction from your mission, your signal, which is to focus on your company, your growth, your trajectory, and leave all of that other stuff to other people to worry about.

Murray Guest  

So to help you park the noise to sort of like, I guess, acknowledge it, and then park that. Did you go through a process mentally? Or did you write it down? Like what works for you in the field?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, so a couple of things is, it takes work. So it’s not something that is like, Okay, well, you switch it on, or you switch it off. I mean, it takes constant attention in any arena. But for me, one of the things that I that really helped was to constantly ask myself that question, well, what is the job? What is the job? What is my role? What am I bringing to this table? What is my value? What? Because, again, so many of us compare ourselves to the people we’re speaking to, and in our companies, oh, this person so important, that person has this title, they have this experience. Again, all noise. What is your job? What is the value you are bringing in? Constantly asking yourself that question, is a really great way to just break that pattern of like spinning ourselves up into a tizzy around all of that other stuff.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And as humans, we’re fantastic at creating stories and meaning, aren’t we?

Rupal Patel  

Yes. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. And I think, you know, it’s, I’m glad you said that word meaning, because one of the things I fundamentally believe is that we can make things mean as much or as little as we want to. And that is a choice. And it sounds really annoying. And really, maybe I don’t know, overly Zen or woowoo, or whatever. But it is genuinely a choice to say, for example, when you fail at something, you can choose to say, Oh, my God, I’m destined to fail at this. And I should just throw in the towel and never try this again. Or you could choose to view it as you know what everybody fails sometimes. A failure is just a part of the process towards success. And sometimes you fail 10 times and then you get the success. Sometimes you have to fail 100 times, but knowing that it is just a part of the process totally changes the meaning of that failure. So it’s not about you. It’s not about you being fundamentally flawed in any way. It’s, oh, actually, no, this is just a part of the process. So I’m going to choose to take that meaning and it’s not about being naive or about being like burying your head in the sand and ignoring, you know, responsibility or anything like that. It’s just about choosing a different meaning. And that is, you know, informed and objective as opposed to this, like, Oh, I’m just doomed to failure and I throw it all in now.

Murray Guest  

Which I think links to something that you do help your clients with around having a growth mindset. Around where’s the opportunities to learn, to grow. Because I think where the, what’s really clear I’m getting here is it’s not about ignoring it. It’s actually that did happen, how do I learn from that and apply that in whatever is coming up next for me in my life?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah. And that’s not easy to do, right? Because it takes a lot of, again, self reflection. And that is one of the hardest things to do is to look inward and to without blame, or without sort of talking yourself down or anything like that, to just own your choices, take responsibility for those choices. And then with that understanding that, hey, I had some part to play in this, what can I do about it, right, because we can’t change the world, we can’t change the economy, we can’t, well, we can change our government through election, we’re sort of stuck with them for a few years in between, you know, there’s so many things we can actively change. So fundamentally, it comes back again, to just controlling what you can control and stop admiring the problem, stop obsessing over everything that’s going wrong. And again, vent, get it out of your system, you know, crawl under the covers and sob about it if you need to. I mean, I’ve been there where I’m like, I just need to get the tears and the snot out, and then I’m gonna wipe my face up and keep on going. But it is we do have those choices. And we are lucky, you and I, and many of your listeners, to live in societies where we have so many choices. And they’re not, we’re not all gifted with the same quality or quantity or any of that. But we have so much more at our disposal than billions of other people. So just make better choices for where you want to go as opposed to staying stuck with where you’re at.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah. And that that leads back to the self leadership you mentioned a little while ago about that. you are a leader of your life. And, and yeah, we make choices. Sometimes those choices aren’t the best. But let’s learn from those for the next choice we’re going to make.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly, and one of the things that I started doing that was really helpful to make that process of learning very concrete, as opposed to just like, oh, yeah, I’ll learn from it and I won’t make the mistake next time. Because we are, human beings are notoriously bad at remembering things accurately. You know, we have all of these biases.

Murray Guest  

We’re very good at repeating the same mistake as well. 

Rupal Patel  

Yes exactly. And so again, a way to just encapsulate the learning in a very tangible way, every year for the past, I want to say at least six or seven years, I have sat down and looked back over the entire year, and literally sat with my diary with, you know, sort of, where have I gone? Who have I met? What did I do? Where did I travel, all this stuff, what kind of work was I doing, and just looked at everything, and then encapsulated using those things as triggers for what I did, and how things went, etc. And then at least coming up with 10, just big lessons learnt that year, you know, this is what I learned this year, these were the mistakes, this is some of the things that I shouldn’t repeat, these are some of the things that went really well and why they went really well. And just trying to I mean, it’s, it’s usually between 10 and 15. But 10 is a good number to aspire to. And then what I take it one step further or two steps further one, I share it with other people so that hopefully, others can learn from my mistakes and not make the same themselves. And then secondly, for myself, is as I’m planning the year ahead, I look back and I say okay, well, these were the things that went wrong, why? What can I do? What can I build into my business? What can I build into my life, to make it less likely that I’ll repeat those mistakes, because until you go through a process of some sort, where you’re making all of the memories and the ideas and whatever else concrete, you will just repeat it again and again and again, in a different form. So we have to stop. And for me, I find putting things down and making them very concrete is a way to break that pattern and to actually capture the year and capsulate it into something valuable and usable. And then actually use those lessons and build it into your life somehow.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, fantastic. I, I think in the busyness of life, I think it’s easy to not do it. And what I hear from you and I totally, totally agree with you, is the power of actually slowing down and that reflection and saying well, what can I take from that? What’s working, what’s not? And then take that forward. I love that. My thought here is that, so there’s a lot of leaders that listen to the podcast and as a leader of a business, how do I create that culture, that that culture where people feel it’s okay to fail? And when we do, we learn from that intelligently to move forward? Like if, as a leader how do I do that? Like what’s what’s a tip that you know, that really helps a leader create that culture?

Rupal Patel  

I think fundamentally, it’s about being the example yourself. So first and foremost, for example, taking that time out to reflect and then letting you your team know about it, you know, saying, Look, maybe you send out an email, or you talk about it in an all hands or whatever way you communicate it to your team. But you know, I don’t know, every Thursday from 10am to 1130, I’m going to be, you know, having my quiet time, whatever you want to call it, where I’m just going to sit and reflect and, you know, think about some of the challenges, maybe come up with solution, whatever it is, that’s my thinking time, and then invite if you know it’s appropriate, and for your team, and the rest of your organisation to do the same. And to make it a structured thing, and not people are going off and having coffee breaks or having, you know, sort of smoke breaks or whatever people do. But you know, this is built into part of your, like, your job role. And, you know, this is a thing you do every week, you can institutionalise it if you want to in some very formal way that, you know, everybody’s got to do this 90 min, or whatever you want to do it. So first lead by example. And then, you know, again, put it in into the sort of the bones of your business in whatever way is realistic. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

I like that, because it’s, it shifts it from it, it’s a it’s a, I’ll get round to it some time, to actually just part of the way we operate.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly. And it’s because you know, if you’re starting your own company, you can set the tone of the culture from the beginning. And that’s sort of a lot easier to do it from the beginning, if you’re already operating a running ship, so where you can still do that, I think so many people think that oh, well, this is how it’s always been done, I don’t want to shake the, rock the boat or whatever it is, and but as a leader, the whole reason you’ve been brought in is to lead the company and to leave your mark on it in some way. And if you think it’s going to change and improve the organisation, and the culture, and, you know, all of the other things that are important, all of the metrics that are you care about, then by all means, of course, you can institutionalise it. That’s why you’re getting paid the big bucks. You know, that’s why you’ve got the title and, and the office and all that stuff. So yeah, absolutely make those changes. And it can even be in things like, I hate this whole idea of face time in office cultures. I think it’s such and in certain industries and finance and, and consulting and a lot of, you know, sort of those really intense environments. It’s like, well, you can’t leave before the boss leaves, it’ll be sort of a blot on your on your ledger book kind of thing. And everybody knows it’s BS, you know, and everybody finds a way to squander the time, I don’t know, scrolling on social media, taking tonnes of breaks, like human beings are infinitely creative when it comes to that kind of thing. And we shouldn’t be penalising our team for being good at what they do, and being able to finish their job in four hours or six hours, and then force them to waste another, you know, five to six hours of their lives by just sitting in the office. Like it’s a huge waste of everybody’s time and effort and energy. So if you’ve if you recognise as a leader that face time cultures are nonsense than again, that’s something you can change in your business, you can choose to say, hey, look, I’ve been in the office for six hours, I got my day’s work done, I’m peacing out now. You know, you can do that. And you can say it in a way that’s a little bit more appropriate for your work environment. But you can set the tone or at least, if you can’t do that yourself, invite others to do it, and then maybe force yourself to do it every so often. So you are walking the talk, and it’s not just oh, well, he’s telling us to do it. But if we actually do it, then we’re going to be penalised for it in some way. And then you have to make sure that people aren’t penalised for it, that it is going down the whole organisation that there isn’t a middle manager somewhere being like, Oh, well, this person didn’t leave until, you know, six o’clock and this person left at two. And, you know, you got to make sure that it’s safe to do these things, and that there isn’t any blowback. But again, as the leader, you have the the ability to do that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And then to set the culture. The thing, the thing again, that links I think beautifully back here is through COVID what I’ve seen with the people I work with, is this reset around what flexibility means for different people. And working from home to hybrid working, now working back in the office. And if I finish, and I need to go pick up my children, or I want to go to the gym, or I just need to go and run a few errands. That’s okay. And I need that now. And I think good companies, great companies are recognising that flexibility is very important to people as we move forward.

Rupal Patel  

For sure. And I think companies, you know, if you’ve hired well, if you’ve done your due diligence, and you’ve chosen good people, then most people, not all, you know, I’m not gonna lie, there will be some people who sort of take advantage of this system. But that’s going to be true in every environment, in every culture. But most people, if you’ve hired well and chosen well and incentivize them in the right way, and sort of again, understand them and what makes them tick, then yes, they will not abuse your trust, they will be thankful for the fact that you’ve you’ve allowed them to flex their brains and contribute to something that they care about in their careers in their professional lives, but then also have a life outside of work because what I have gotten so fed up with is this conversation we’ve been having for decades now about work life balance. And what I think is so annoying about that whole discourse is it creates a false dichotomy between work and life. And it’s that there is no separation, there’s never been a separation, people have been faking it and have been, you know, have been doing all sorts of damage to their health or to their family lives, or whatever, to try to create those separations. But it’s not real, right? So if you can create an environment where you trust people, you empower them, you incentivize them, and then let them just get on with things, a lot of people will not let you down. Some will, but that’s going to be true, even if you force them to show up into the office from like, I don’t know, six to six every day. So, you know, it’s understanding the trade offs and making these choices very consciously. And then yes, of course, creating the accountability mechanisms and all that other stuff in place. So you don’t get too much sort of abuse. But I think, again, people acknowledge that it’s important to be seen and treated as people and as humans, and not just machines and robots. So there’s, there’s still so much work that we can do. But I think again, fundamentally, it comes down to people will appreciate you treating them as adults.

Murray Guest  

Oh, yeah. 100% so agree with you. And I feel like this, I assume, Rupal that you’ve seen this thought about the great resignation. For me, it’s actually the great realignment. People are saying, Do I feel aligned with this company, this way of working, this culture? If I don’t, I’m going to go elsewhere. Because there’s a culture which I’m more connected with, a leader I’m more connected with.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, yeah. And, and that’s great to see that there are people who are making that choice. What’s really frustrating for me, and I don’t know if this is the same in Australia, what’s been happening. And this has been a problem that then COVID just exacerbated, is there are droves of women who are leaving the workforce, not because they’re unaligned or because they’re they anything else, but they cannot afford childcare. And in most societies, even to the 21st century, women are the primary caregivers. And a lot of women in the UK and in the US in particular, have to make that choice of well, I literally cannot afford to put my child in childcare. So I will have to quit my job so that I can be the one taking care of them. And that is a huge problem that COVID just really brought to light and you know, it started out because women were trying to do it all, we’re trying to work from home and raise kids and be homeschooling their children and all this stuff. And I’m not saying men weren’t helping or chipping in, but it was predominantly the weight was being put on women. So in addition to having to work, and you know a normal jobs of during the course of the day while worrying about family, try not to get COVID, homeschooling your child, feeding them endless snacks, there was all of this stuff. And so that was creating another sort of bubbling up problem of its own. And then when everybody sort of, and under this, you know, what’s been going on for decades is this problem of like childcare just not being affordable. And so women are making this really horrible choice of choosing, having to choose their family over themselves in a lot of ways. And it’s such a, I find it society has so much work to do on this front. And I feel fundamentally that governments and companies have a lot to do a lot of work to do in supporting women who have young families if they are the primary caregiver to provide affordable childcare, because it’s just stupid that 50% of the population has more often than not, has to make that trade off and has to make that choice. And it’s bad for business. It’s bad for the economy. It’s bad for individual humans. And it’s bad for families, you know, and it puts women at financial risk for the long term. And so this is my sort of rallying cry, I guess, for the organisations and the leaders who do listen to your podcasts. It’s to start having those tough conversations, start engaging with your women and talking to them about well, you know, what can we do? And it’s, it is mostly a problem for women. Yes, there are men who are primary caregivers or whatever. But fundamentally, again, every society that I know of it is the women who take the backseat, have have their careers take the backseat when they start a family. And that shouldn’t be a penalty that you pay for allowing the human race to move on, to keep going on and grow. So it’s, yeah, there’s a lot of work to be done on that front.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I know you shared something recently on LinkedIn about this. I saw an article that and of course, it’s and I’ve, I’ve heard, and I’ve experienced, but of course, I’m not a woman. But people talk about they look forward to the day when their children can go to school, because of the costs with schooling versus childcare and what that means, and it shouldn’t have to live like that where we’re all sort of wishing out that time to get to that and shifting it to have a place where we can I don’t know, I don’t know the answer, that’s for sure. But I know we need a better balance of how can we support that diversity in the workplace because women bring so much perspective and insight and creativity in the workplace.

Rupal Patel  

They bring the same that men bring, right? Like, it’s, again, it’s, I think it’s just a fundamental issue around equality and, and what I find really strange is that it’s a problem at all, you know, because if you’re a numbers person, and a lot of companies sort of live and die by the numbers, research, study, after study after study after study has shown that companies that have women in leadership positions, companies that make you know, are flexible, and family friendly, and all these things that again, disproportionately help women, all of this stuff is good for the bottom line, they’re better, they’re stronger companies, they’re more financially successful, female led startups are financially more successful, and yet, they get just 1% of VC funding, like all of the research shows why it’s a good idea for companies and governments to put money behind women, and supporting women staying in the workforce. Why it’s not happening is beyond me. Because if it was just about the money, there’s all the data in the world to support that it makes financial sense, as well as just good common sense, right? Because 50% of the population is a massive part of the population. And all of the untapped talent is probably costing the economy billions, if you want to just reduce it to, you know, financial, the financial aspects. So, again, I don’t know why it’s not happening,

Murray Guest  

I was gonna say, you might be able to, quote the source of this one. But I did hear a little while ago that countries that were led by women did better through COVID.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, I remember seeing a lot of articles about that. And I don’t know what the studies were or what the how they defined did better like, and you know, what were the trade offs? I don’t know any of that stuff. So, you know, I sort of shy away from making sweeping judgments about oh, women are better at this or men. Because I think it just again, it creates too much of a division between men do this, and women do this and know what, like, women should be in charge of everything. It’s not binary. It’s not either it’s all men or it’s all women, it’s, it should just be people. And women, because of our biology, we are, of course, the ones who are having kids and then allowing the human race to, you know, keep continuing on. But we shouldn’t have to then pay the cost of that with our careers and with our sense of financial independence, personal and intellectual fulfilment. And again, from a company perspective, there is a huge pool of untapped, highly qualified, highly trained, you know, degreed up the wazoo women, who for this very stupid reason of childcare, are just sat at home, literally, like their brains I won’t say atrophying, but their brains just sat there, not contributing in the ways that they could be. So again, from a very just, if you want to be very instrumentalist about it, like, there’s a huge source of talent, of ideas, of innovation, all of the stuff that you just need to start tapping into and being creative about how you tap into it. 

Murray Guest  

If you’ve got one sort of suggestion for a leader or CEO of companies around this to make an impact around this challenge, what would it be?

Rupal Patel  

I would say start with subsidising childcare, if you can’t provide it on site, some companies obviously are going to be too small to be able to provide on site. But and I don’t mean just like a few quid here or a few dollars or whatever here or there, like properly subsidise it and do the maths based on you know, whatever salary structure you’ve got in place. So that is not, oh, well, okay, I’m just going to be making a few extra dollars here or there. And it’s okay. But it actually makes sense for women to go back to work and they will still have, you know, the income and all that kind of stuff. It’s it’s doable. I think it takes some creative thinking and some creative leadership. But that’s an easy place to start, at least start doing the numbers, you know, have your accountant or your your financial team start running the numbers, what would it cost? And then what would you get? You know, there is always yes, there’s going to be a bit of a trade off. And you have to look at the cost and the benefit. But I think the benefits side of things will far outweigh both the numbers as well as in just being a company that stands for something, the reputational benefit, all that kind of stuff that comes from being a bit more innovative on this. And at the end of the day, that’s just make sense. Like, again, I say I’ve reduced it to things to the very simplest, I think this is a stupid problem to have in the 21st century in the democracies in which we’re living in.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Thank you. I love that this conversation has brought this out because it’s such, so powerful to hear your passion and as you said, there’s some real things that could be done to change it and make it much better. I do have a question that sort of builds off this is a little bit. And so I, assumptions and my checking my assumption here, that the CIA is male dominated. 

Rupal Patel  

Yeah. Yeah. 

Murray Guest  

And a lot of women that I work with and clients that I have, they often are in male dominated workplaces. How does, I mean, it’s a big, big question, but how does a woman manage that? What are your thoughts? How do they find their voice? And that courage that confidence in those male dominated workforces?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, gosh, yeah, this is a massive one. So a couple of things. So I’ll speak from my own experience. And then some of the work I’ve done with the women that I work with, I think, first and foremost, it’s acknowledging that you deserve to be in that room. Because so often, we look around and we see, oh, God, I’m the only woman like I can’t screw up here, or they’re holding me to a higher standard, or some people might be thinking, Oh, she’s only here because she’s a woman. So that again, there’s all of that noise in the background, right? So it’s about ignoring that noise. Because you know, no one gave you that job, no one invited you into that board or to that room out of pity, you are there for a reason. And now own the fact that you are in that room, it doesn’t matter, you know, what room who they are, what they’ve done, it’s it’s not about them, it’s about you. Because, again, you might have seen this from yours, your work Murray is, I’ve been a lot around a lot of high achievers of all stripes, you know, billionaires and people who are titans of industry and all this kind of stuff. And not all of them deserve to be in that room, you know, not all of them got there on merit. And I think my view, and I believe this very strongly is we do not live in a meritocracy, I wish that we did, I wish that the smartest or the best or the whatever, always won. But we all know, for example, from recent US elections, for example, that the best person for the role doesn’t always get it, right. It doesn’t mean we have to like it. But that is just what happens. Sometimes people get their job or their title or the position because who they are, their family, the money they had, the country club that they belong to, all of these other things, right. So we don’t know the full story behind how anyone got to where they are. So let’s just take a slightly lighter view of like, well, I belong here, too. I know my story, I know what I did to work here, to get here, to earn my place here. So just own it. There’s no tangible thing you can do necessarily, but it is a mental exercise of just reminding yourself that you do belong there. Because that helps quiet a lot of the like the confidence issues that come from feeling like oh, God, like these people are this and they’ve done that, well. You don’t know how they got there. You don’t know why they’re there, you know, and again, we can all name dozens of examples of really shitty people who got to the top of things, you know, and so you deserve it.

Murray Guest  

I really don’t like the term fake it till you make it.  

Rupal Patel  

No, I hate that so much. Yeah. 

Murray Guest  

And whereas what I’m hearing from you is, don’t fake it, you own it, you deserve to be there. And you own that space. You own that position, you own that, your place in the room.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly, exactly. The whole fake it till you make the thing. I think it’s just I find it again, really irritating with work life balance become this, this trope that everyone started using. And it’s just it’s so unhelpful because also a lot of people just feel really inauthentic doing that, right? Yeah. And I don’t want you to, as a, for example, a woman to go in. I mean, I didn’t, I couldn’t go and be like, Look at me, I’m so big, and brawny and alpha, and I’m tough guy, like, no one’s gonna believe that. Like, it’s just, I could try to fake it until I died. And it would not work. I couldn’t ever make it like that, right. But there are other things you can do. So owning your place in the room. And again, that’s an internal exercise, but then also start practising taking up actual space. So a lot of women shrink into themselves or stand against the wall or won’t take a seat at the table, or whatever it is. And so, practice, if you’re going to show up actually showing up, you know, like I said, stand tall, use your voice contribute something, yes, if you’re really nervous, and it’s something that’s outside of your comfort zone, you’ll have to practice and you might start, your heart might start racing when you do it and you know, whatever it is, but it gets easier with practice else. All of the stuff gets easier with practice and your presence and how you feel in yourself will you know you can you can work on that you can project different things in different ways. Even just talking about it. I’ve started sitting taller, you know, and, and it’s little things like that. And then it’s also very practical things of really understanding what do you bring, like what is, doing that self reflection doing that analysis of who you are as a leader as a contributor, and then recognising that again, it’s okay if it doesn’t conform to the archetype of being really gregarious or outgoing or, you know, hard nosed or whatever it is that you’re telling yourself, and then practice, again practice bringing that value to light. So if you are, for example, a bit more introverted, and are the type of person who does sort of stay very quiet in group settings or meetings or whatever it is, just take a baby step, you know, ask a question to begin with, you don’t have to be leading the meeting. But start practising, actually using your voice. And again, all of these things become easier with time and with practice. And none of this is going to overnight revolutionise your career and how you feel but all of these baby steps compound, and as the confidence builds, as you get more comfortable using your voice, it just builds on itself, and it can really, really help you feel more like the leader you already are.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. I feel like I’d love to add one, because this is something that I’ve seen sometimes with some of the ladies and sorry women I’ve worked with, and that is around setting boundaries, being clear on your own personal boundaries, I think is super important. And then for males as well, but for women, I think that’s really important.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, yeah. And it’s about boundaries, but also one of the things that I saw, so yes, have boundaries and understand, like, Look, I’m not gonna respond to emails after 7pm, or whatever it is, you know, can be something very tangible like that. Or it’s like, no, I’m just not going to come to this meeting because it’s a waste of time. You know, that kind of stuff. That’s all very, very important. But I also think, and again, this is not going to be appropriate in all work settings, but to take a slightly lighter approach to things. So instead of everything being this big way thing again, choosing what things mean, right? So instead of feeling like, oh, they said that to me, because I’m a woman. Yeah, maybe they did. Oh, maybe they didn’t. I don’t know. Obviously, in some instances, you sort of, you’re always having to play that game of like, what was the intention behind that, right, but trying to decouple that, and again, recognising it for the noise that it is like, yes, maybe they slighted you because you’re a woman, and that’s really effing annoying. But maybe they’re just an asshole. You know what I mean? So like, you can’t, you can’t change them. But what you can change is how you internalise it, and how you view that as a reflection on you and who you are, and whether you belong there. And, and again, look, there will be situations where you can’t take it so lightly, right, where people are actively challenging your role, your position, your livelihood, and that is a totally different ballgame that requires you to, you know, file the complaint or to confront the person or do that thing. But a lot of these little like micro aggressions and micro frictions. I would say you have to choose your battles on, right, because it can be as women, it’s exhausting. It’s exhausting. I mean, because you are constantly bombarded with like I said, these micro aggressions these micro frictions, these these signals, and these both overt and subtle things that tell you, Oh, you don’t belong, or it’s still a boys club or whatever. And again, in different industries, it’s, it’s worse than another’s. So you just sadly, as many of us have been doing for a lot of our careers, you have to yes, take it on your chin for some of the time. But then choose the things that are worth it to you to speak up about and choose your battles and then fight those effing battles as hard as you possibly can. Because if you don’t do it, who will?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I love that. And for me, I, I feel like getting clear on your values, what’s important to you and standing by those. And then what can you just let go of, what can you not put the meaning around the other stuff as well. I feel like we could talk again, to be honest.

Rupal Patel  

Let’s do it.

Murray Guest  

I feel like I haven’t explored your whole journey in the CIA and, and more around what you bring to your leadership conversations with the people you work with. So I’ve loved catching up with you, loved hearing about some of your examples and what you do. It’s been so good. But I do want to know, who do you work with these days? Like, what are those clients you’re working with now?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah. So it’s, it’s a mix, actually, it’s about I would say 70% corporate executives and teams, and then about 30% high growth startups and founders. So it’s, it’s basically growth oriented companies, both in financial growth but also sort of team growth and market growth and that kind of thing. But who wants to do it in a very thoughtful way so not growth for its own sake, not you know, pursuing the hockey stick numbers or whatever it is, that’s, you know, sexy headlines for their own sake, but like doing things very thoughtfully, and, and without, again, helping them cut through all of the noise to find what is important, what is driving us here, what’s what are our values as a team as an organisation or as a leader? You know, a lot of the work I do that starts out being team related ends up actually being leadership related and, you know, and how, how do I how do I lead myself? And then it becomes Okay, well, how do I think this team, how do we lead this organisation. And then leadership becomes something that everybody does, it’s not, and in different ways and with different levels of impact, etc, etc. But yeah, it’s all about, it’s all about growth, both as an organisation, but then also as individuals. So yeah, growing companies and growing humans.

Murray Guest  

And your clients are based in the UK.

Rupal Patel  

They’re everywhere. Yeah, so I’ve got some in India, some in the US, some in the UK, all over the world. So yeah, that’s the beauty of again, the past few years is that all of those physical boundaries have in many ways been broken down. So it’s been really exciting to get to work with companies from all over different cultures in different regions, because the circumstances are often obviously very different. But the fundamentals are totally universal. And that’s what’s been really nice to see.

Murray Guest  

And what’s life like living in the UK? Because obviously, you didn’t grow up there?

Rupal Patel  

No, it didn’t. Do you know, it’s, I really like it, for this time in my life, where I’m at, as a person, as an individual, as a professional, it’s the perfect place to be, I think, my very generous, not very generous, but my general view is that the UK is the right for me balance between American capitalism and ambition and growth and you know, sort of hard charging like that alpha stuff tempered with Europeans sort of socialism light. So it’s a really nice middle ground. I imagine Australia to be the same. I’ve never visited Australia but I love Australians.

Murray Guest  

It’s not that far honestly.

Rupal Patel  

22 hours no big deal. So yeah, I think for me, it’s a good match.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I love when I travel, trying different food and I’m wondering what’s a food that you’ve now fallen in love with whilst you’ve been living in the UK? 

Rupal Patel  

I mean, if you want me to give you British food, make something up. I mean, I don’t dislike British food, chips is amazing, right? Like we do fish and chip Fridays at home. And that’s always a treat, but it’s not really anything I crave. I’m sorry. I love I love, my favourite foods are Ethiopian food, Lebanese food and Indian food. Yeah, so luckily, I’ve got all of that here. And then fish and chip Fridays.

Murray Guest  

My wife did the living in London and Bristol and a few areas in her late 20s. And she talks about chips and curry sauce.

Rupal Patel  

I have not tried it yet. I can’t bring myself to do it. I know. The other thing. I can’t bring myself to eat is beans on toast. I’ve yet to try beans on toast. Yeah, and everyone thinks I’m crazy. But I can’t.

Murray Guest  

I’m with you on that. I think I did like that was a thing when I was younger. But no, you’re not missing out on anything. There’s plenty of good curries and other things you can be eating.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly. It’s the national dish. Right? So.

Murray Guest  

So thank you so much. I love your energy. I love your passion. I love the unique insights that you bring to leadership from from an organisation perspective, but also that self leadership. And I feel like this hour has gone so quick. So wonderful. Yeah, I do want to ask a couple of last questions. First one was where’s the best place for people to find you online?

Rupal Patel  

My website which is rupalypatel.com.

Murray Guest  

Wonderful. Okay, so we can send people there, while the link also to your book in the show notes.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, here it is.

Murray Guest  

And my last question, which I ask on everyone that comes on the podcast is what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Rupal Patel  

For me, it’s an easy one. It’s doing the hard work to really understand who you are and what makes you tick and what your values are. And then living a life in alignment with that.

Murray Guest  

Oh, I love that so much. Thank you. That is that’s got me thinking about myself, which I love. And I hopefully gets plenty of listeners thinking about what that looks like for them as well. So this has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much. 

Rupal Patel  

It’s been my pleasure. 

Murray Guest  

We’ll be talking again, I know we will be. 

Rupal Patel  

Let’s do it.

Murray Guest  

Let’s do it. Thank you.

Rupal Patel  

Thanks.