Episode 107 – Jeff Spahn | Creating true collaboration & teams that thrive on creativity

In this episode I speak with Jeff Spahn, a pioneer in leadership forging a new, evolved theory and practice of leading that meets today’s challenges and opportunities.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  

So tell me about Lake Michigan.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for, well, I visited your website before I got on and in there you have a little video where you encourage people to experience the awe of, of nature as a way to get in a creative place if you’re stuck. And I really, really appreciate that and you made me realize how thankful I am, where I live and why I live here. Because I’m you know, Lake Michigan is one of the natural wonders of the world or the Great Lakes are and there’s a park, a beach and the lake and and 20 minutes ago the sun was setting, the moon is rising up over the lake and the clouds are dark, but the the water looks green, you know and then the other thing is it starting to freeze some you know, spectacular that it freezes in spheres, in circles, you know and it’s like, wow, who whoever told the water to do that, you know? It’s just like, wow, so thank you for that reminder.

Murray Guest  

Just the colors and the shapes that I’m just picturing at the moment for the time of year it is for you, cause down here, it is hot. It is hot down here in Australia right now. So what was the temperature while you’re out?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, it’s uh, it was in the mid 30s. So it’s really quite pleasant for this time of year. It’s been down feeling like minus three a couple days ago. So that was another nice thing. I didn’t have to get all all bundled up, you know, to survive out there. But that’s another thing Murray I mean, last year, I could go out and just pretend I’m in Alaska. Yeah, it was all ice, deep into the lake ice. I mean, it’s just like, wow, I don’t even have to get in a car to drive to see this, you know, really was more profound that way last year than many years and I’ve lived here for a while. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah, it’s such a great reminder. And thank you for checking out that little video because I think about when I get stuck, I’m sitting here in my office and sometimes I’m trying to think of how I’m going to get back to a client or write a blog and I just I get that that you know that freeze and I’m just not too sure. I go for a walk or on my mountain bike in the bush and then ideas start coming.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. So it’s almost like nature’s just waiting for us to listen, you know?

Murray Guest  

Yeah. So did you did you have any inspiration come to you while you were out on the lake this evening?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, not past what I’ve already told you. You know, I mean, you know that that inspiration, I wasn’t really asking a particular question. But hopefully I think we’ve gotten off to a great start and that wouldn’t happen without me taking that walk. So I think that’s part of it, getting ready and being in a good space to enjoy this conversation.

Murray Guest  

And I think that’s a really good point that there’s a flow on effect, isn’t there, when you get out in nature, that reset, that connection, that flows on to what you do next. So yeah, this morning, my wife and I went for a bike ride. And we easily could not have gone for a ride. And it was one of those moments of ah, it’s Friday. It’s Friday morning here and it’s the end of the week and we might just have a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and stay at home…no let’s go for a bike ride. And I’ll tell you I’ve got more energy and I know my wife has, after getting out and we rode down to a lake as well. Lake Macquarie, not far from here. And it just kicks off the day so well.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does. I, I believe in it. I take a walk every morning. I’m here in the morning and out to the lake.

Murray Guest  

So I was gonna say, Jeff, with the leaders that I work with, and I imagine some of the leaders that you work with with working from home. I think the the habit to form around that connection and getting out that opportunity people have I think is so so important.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Yeah, and I think it’s it’s so easy to overlook and just the idea of getting the fresh air and then the the surprise of what’s, what’s going to be there, you know, the colors and everything. And for me, you know, it taps me into you know, a bigger reality than the problem I got. Yeah, and then I think I think your point, once I expand myself in that reality, then I see this little particular thing that’s just kicking my ass, you know, like in a different perspective. You know, I step back, I can’t help but kind of step back and look at it, and say, wow. And then in that space, that’s often where the creativity comes at least as as I experience what I heard you say.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, it’s a good point. I think maybe I’ve lost that a little bit sometimes which is, hang on that thing that I was racking my brain over isn’t so big after all.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, I guess for me, sometimes it’s just feels all consuming, you know, like it’s, you know, all of a sudden a closet and I’m in that closet, and I got to figure this thing out. And for me letting go of that need to figure it out and let the intuition come. Wow, that’s, that’s liberating.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Wow. I love that. I love that. So how long have you been in Michigan for?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, I’m actually in Chicago, on Lake Michigan.

Murray Guest  

Ah, gotcha. Yeah.

Jeff Spahn  

So Chicago, Illinois, and Wisconsin, the State of Wisconsin, are on the west side of Lake Michigan, and Michigan’s on the east side. And so I’ve been here for several years. I came here for for school. But I haven’t lived where I live, but five years. And I, you know, I really love live jazz. It’s improvisation to me and it’s experience of the We the leader experience. Yeah, and we can talk more about that. And Chicago has a vibrant live jazz scene. And so that’s part of what keeps me here. And then I lived more in the city. I’m still in the city, but you know, more in the concrete and I was just tired of that. Then I found this spot, you know, where I don’t have to cross a major highway to get to a park and the lake. And I love it. 

Murray Guest  

So tell me, why jazz?

Jeff Spahn  

Why jazz? Well, uh, for me, uh, you know, the whole notion of jazz. And particularly, I want to qualify my interest in jazz with two things. One is, improvisational jazz, which is, you know, that’s different than having a score and everyone playing the same score. You may have a score as Ken vandermark, a MacArthur Genius Award winner once when I was in conversation with him, I said, you know, how do you play with this notion of having something predetermined and scripted, and improvisation. And he says sometimes it’s just straight up improvisation but often I’ll create a predetermined score with my musicians in mind and and then how they might play off of it. And I love that integration of the improv and structure or what I talked about is the the egalitarian structure of most organizations that’s not named. But sometimes that can seem like a threat. However, you still need the hierarchy. But the hierarchy isn’t the control. It’s to free the collective flow, the improvisation of the group. And I just love listening to that and experiencing it there live, you know, knowing what these are, watching the nonverbal cues. I’m hungry for it. I haven’t done much of it with the pandemic.

Murray Guest  

Do you play or are you more of a listener?

Jeff Spahn  

No I went deep into Second City and propositional theater here in Chicago. I don’t know how well that’s known in Australia. But second, Viola Spolin really, we awaken the improvisational theatre by working with challenged youth on the south side. And then out of that came Second City and it’s world class improvisational theater experience as well as educational vehicle and I I went like three or four levels deep into it, and the teacher saying, hey, follow the follower. Yeah, you know, and I’m like, Well, that’s the same thing as lead the leader because if I follow the follower that followers a leader and then then we’re really mixing it up, you know, so it shakes up some of the state categories, at least for me, that we think about in organizations. You’re a leader or you’re a leader or a follower, when actually newest science tells us that the mind is working both sides, the right the leader follower side at the same time, and that’s the fundamental basis of We the Leader.

Murray Guest  

And I love this premise of We the Leader and I love what the book’s about, we want to get into that but I want to know a bit more about the structure and improvisation in jazz and how you see that in leadership.

Jeff Spahn  

Right. So, one I mean a lot of times think people think of improvisation as, you know, impromptu, no structure. I mean, it takes structure and skill to practice improvisation if you don’t follow the rules. There’s no, it’s just freakin chaos.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I was thinking Jeff about brainstorming. I think some people think oh, we just get in a room throw around ideas. No you still need the structure for those ideas to come out.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, right. And brainstorming can be helpful, but it’s not improvisation. And so the the there’s the idea of actually, to me that brainstorming is more like gathering the pieces and then improv is a way of starting to connect them and then see what’s appearing here that we haven’t seen before. And, and, you know, I think the whole team taking a walk out in nature beforehand would certainly help that.

Murray Guest  

I agree. I love that seeing what we’re seeing that wasn’t here before. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Spahn  

So when you when you think about it, Murray, I mean, that’s what’s the beauty and the wonder of Improv Theater. You don’t know. I mean, I, I mean, I did improv theater. It was it was the most excruciating and exhilarating experience I’ve ever had. Because I remember this one scene, you know, Connie and I didn’t know each other. We were married in the suburbs. Obsessed about our lawn. And we just started the play and it was hilarious. The whole place is cracking up. I felt so alive. Ya know, and that’s, that’s where I want to be. I want to live in that space.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, the energy is nearly you know, palpable, isn’t it? When you’re in that space where that sort of creativity and that flow, that flow is just happening.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s what that’s what you know, drives me into it. So relating that to an organization, let’s just say a team. Okay. So, when we gather and we the leaders, the basic assumption is that everybody is equal, different and vital. Okay. Now there’s still the hierarchy, right? The hierarchy is still there. But that set aside, everybody’s equal different and vital. And so how do you show up that way? And in the book, we’ve talked about core practices, a curious conviction, we can talk about that if you like, and however, there comes a time within and this is where I’ve been successful. That’s a little thing about being able to implement improvisation within the necessity I think of a hierarchial organizations, particularly the bigger it gets, you need structure and you need a decision making model. And so that’s where the hierarchy fits in. The simple model is, the leader would say, Okay, this is how we’re going to decide if we need to, we’re gonna spend this much time in improv, you know, but we need a decision by five o’clock and if we haven’t gotten that decision, then I’ll follow the leadership, I’ll follow the decision making model and make a decision in a timely fashion. So then I access the wisdom of the group, and still work within the structure of the necessary hierarchy of deadlines.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, gotcha. 

Jeff Spahn  

And it’s a very simple, it’s not a distinctive decision making process, at least as I know. But when you couple it with the improv, wow, you know, it works and it’s fine.

Murray Guest  

And the thing that’s jumping out to me too, Jeff, is what I’ve seen is in leadership teams where there isn’t that support and alignment with the decision at the end. And so, the how they got to that decision, not everyone’s supportive of it. And so then when the decisions made and they’re moving forward, we’re not on the same page, and maybe there’s some behaviors that aren’t supportive. But what I love in your process is, because we’ve had this place where everyone’s equal, vital, and their perspective is valued, then when we get to the decision, I feel like it’s going to be much more supported.

Jeff Spahn  

Yes. Well, you know, that equality builds trust. There’s nothing that builds trust more than mutuality, you know, being in it together and knowing you’re in it together. And then if you make a decision that I don’t like, or threatens me or deters my own self interest then I’m more apt to go with it. Because I believe you have the best interest in mind. If I feel like you’re trying to undermine me and you really don’t like me and you want to put me in my place. Then I’m going to be lifting my middle finger you know, and just not very happy, but I’ll be very nice about.

Murray Guest  

So, tell me, what was it like, as a journey to get to this place of writing the book, We The Leader?

Jeff Spahn  

Wow. I was just talking with a neighbor of mine who’s a professor here at a local university, and he was telling me about how his younger guy, he wrote his dissertation, and I, you know, but he’s not so interested in getting it published, you know, and I said, Wow, I relate to that because I wrote a dissertation years ago and I had no real interest in getting published. And I tried writing a book in the last 10 or 15 years a couple times. But it just didn’t click, but this time I had more of the process we’re talking about, you know, I was integrating more of that process as a human being and as a as a leader myself, and tapping into my intuition and getting quiet and leading my own self and then moving with what shows up without immediately judging it or trying to figure it all out. Just let it come let it flow. And that wasn’t my total experience, but it was most stuff. I mean, I went through some some difficulties.

Murray Guest  

What helped you get to that mindset? 

Jeff Spahn  

Well, the we the leader process, and in We The Leader we have three sections, one is the diversifier – me the leader, everyone the leader of their own distinctive and unique life. And then the equalizer – everyone a follower of the common purpose. Then the unifier, we the leader, how do we as equal different vital people make a difference through our differences? So that’s the setup, but that practice for me of the Me the leader and getting in that observing space consistently, so that I’m not wrapped up in my own reactive bubble. That I mean, just amplifying that, everybody talks it, not everybody. A lot of people talk about that, and that’s great. But I just needed some time to do it better. And the book process really challenged me to do that and I was ready for it the last couple years, and I spent I’ve spent the almost 85 to 90% of my time on the book the last two years. I’m elated. I did it. I’m very happy with it. It was a spectacular process and sometimes it whipped me around. I get on my bike and take a ride and talk to myself.

Murray Guest  

So what I got out of that, too, is the process is so applicable for teams but also for yourself. To look at the mindset and the way you’re approaching different work. And you can sort of step into those three roles yourself for the work you’re doing. I love that.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, and and the you know, the idea that there’s no I in team, I don’t buy that, you know, there are I’s, they’re just you know, within the T, right? And and the me the leader’s key because it’s not, you know, the we the leader is not about having one follower. It’s everyone showing up as a leader. And I take that very seriously. I’m the only person that can know my experience, my feelings, my thinking. My body is totally unique. My past experience is totally unique. I’m the only one who can choose for myself. Actually, nobody else can lead me but me. And then Whoo. That that then you have people showing up with their full self. Mike Coffman, CEO of Cardinal Health, one of the 14th largest global corporations. His image is everyone brings 100% of themselves to work. Yeah, and you get that and people know how to engage with 100% of themselves. You got something pretty special.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I want to talk a bit about the some of the key things you cover in the book, but before we get to that, can I ask, what’s your hope for your book?

Jeff Spahn  

Thank you for that question. My, my hope for that book is to stimulate conversations like this and reimagine what leadership means for the world. I hope that the book, instigates, inspires another level of thinking about leadership. Because Murray, I think we really need it. We, we I mean, the human race needs another level of leadership. And it’s not about one person leading followers, or leading or following. It’s about everyone showing up as a leader. And I think I’ve got some provocative ideas. I hope to to initiate some conversations like the one we’re having and allow that to reverberate and impact the way we think and practice leadership and I’m very excited about the possibilities.

Murray Guest  

So if I’m a leader listening to this and I feel like I’m in a quite a hierarchical structure right now. And there’s a leader and I’ve got followers. What’s the first sort of step in my journey of starting to shift that and start to create the culture you’re talking about?

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Well, I think the first step is to lead your own life, and different people are in different stages with that. Yeah, but but as I work with somebody, I gauge that, you know, and then we adapt to where that where that person is. But the the key thing is, if, if I’m talking we the leader, you know, and we’re having this conversation, and you’re not excited, then you know, it’s probably not not the time yeah, just probably, you know, it’s just not right. Now we can spend some time and and get you excited. But, but to bring that into your team. The key component of the success of we the leader in the team is the readiness of the formal leader. And I don’t work with everybody. But I’ll work with people to get them ready if they’re open to that. And some folks are more ready than others. And that that readiness is is a hunger and like, yeah, I felt that improv experience before I want more of that. Yeah, we’ve had that kind of success, you know that, the IT thing crashed and we thought it’d be two weeks and by the end of the night midnight we can have done Yeah, woo, we just came together and did some spectacular that we the leaders about making what making that happen more consistently, collective flow, I call that collective flow. Can become the norm not just the exception.

Murray Guest  

I love I love that. The feeling I’m getting, it’s like the hair on my arm sticking up when you talk about that, because that readiness isn’t like let’s do the readiness checklist. No it’s actually the feeling, the emotion, the connection to what you’re talking about. And that’s where I get all that sort of buzz for it. And then yeah, that that idea of everyone being in that flow, and that flow state and then feeding off each other in a really, you know, a really positive way. Ah, that brings energy to the workplace.

Jeff Spahn  

It really does and then to do it intentionally, and so and know what you’re doing. Sometimes we fall into it. But what the we the leader offers it offers a framework, a conceptual framework, a mindset and skills to keep it happening, you know, rather than man I remember that two years ago, or, you know, we can do it and most everyone if they haven’t had that experience, they’ve seen others have it. Yeah. Or they’ve heard about, you know, and, and it’s in the arts. It’s in improvisational theater and it’s in jazz. Not not just scripted jazz, but improvisational jazz.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. Um, I also think about the challenge I hear Jeff, of leaders saying, Well, I just don’t have time for that. I’m too busy. I’ve got too many meetings. I’ve got too much stuff to do. What’s your answer to that?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, I remember it was a Friday afternoon and I’ve worked with this guy who came in from the sales to run the program within this financial company, major global program. So that was a big shift. And it was a couple years into the program. And he calls me, you know, he’s giddy I thought, well, what what’s going on? He win the lottery or something, he’s had the voice of like, I got to know him by this time. I was like, Jay, what, what happened here? He said, you know, Jeff, it’s 2:30 in the afternoon on a Friday, and I don’t have anything to do, and I’m going home. And so if you got a group of leaders and their humming you know, you don’t you don’t, you’re gonna free up your time. You can’t afford not to do this. I mean, that’s my perspective, because you’re for your own health for your own happiness. And that’s one of the things I love about the, the the outcomes for in this process are great for you as an individual human being, apart from being a leader in an organization, and oh, by the way, the business results are exceptional. And can be consistent.

Murray Guest  

You said before, it starts with leading yourself and I’m a big believer that as leaders and how we show up at work starts at home. So you can’t have your home life all over the place. And out of control. You’re not looking after your own health and then expect to turn up and be a good leader. How do you help leaders start to get a better understanding and that sort of, I guess, leadership of themselves, how do you help you do that?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, I’ll share I’ll share a basic process that I use, and that’s that’s in the book and to me again, it’s about this notion of observing oneself, between, you may have heard that quote, between stimulus and response is space. In that space is choice and then that choice is our growth, freedom and growth. I’m a big believer in that. So how do I experience that space? One way is to take an awe nature walk. Another way is to build an internal skill, where I become more increasingly aware of my reactivity and how I can react and spin down and be angry and frustrated or avoid, to my own detriment and to the detriment of the team in organization. And that can happen. I was in that space for at least three years, primarily, you know, as part of my own my own journey. But developing that capacity to kind of say, oh, to just kind of observe myself. Look at look at what I’m doing right now. Look at what I’m thinking and feeling. I have this choice and I call this the boss, boss yourself process. B is the basic practice of taking a deep breath, right, you know, just some kind of breathing practice that works for you. There’s multiple ones. We all know the power of a deep breath. Then in that space that creates some space then I can observe myself. The O, observe. And then when I have that intact, then I can select, I can choose. I have a freedom of choice. Hey, I can show up curious here rather than judgmental. It’s all up to me in this moment. Rather than, you know, be you know, and not have that choice all the time. And so that’s a basic practice what I call boss yourself or lead yourself. B for breathing. There’s, you know, a practice of that which is integrated within the teams as meetings start. We don’t take four hours but we you know, you practice that. And we all know that vitality of a deep breath while we bring that to here and then the observing. I’ve got a little diagram with it, you know, and then select a select. You always we always have the power to choose how we’re going to show up. No, it might not feel like it but we have the power to choose that.

Murray Guest  

I love how this doesn’t just apply in the work sense too, that pause, that observation in all parts of your life. And then starting to think about, well, what’s the choice I’m making, and bring back that empowerment of the choice and what the impact that’s going to have for you, for others, for whatever it is you’re trying to do.

Jeff Spahn  

Right. And I think that impacts health as you mentioned earlier, it impacts mental health directly. And then with that comes comes the physical health.

Murray Guest  

Well, and speaking of that, I’m thinking about how timely your insights, your book is right now with COVID and, Jeff, people working from home different working arrangements, you know, flexibility, all of that. And teams need that. I would say as you’re saying that we are all leaders and how important that is right now.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Well, I think the the notion that we are all leaders is, is having its time. You know, I mentioned Mike Coffman and his chapter, he has a chapter in the book, by the way, and it’s called A Career of Leading Leaders. And he, he just kind of instinctively did this, and I think it was helpful for him to hear me name it, you know, like, oh, yeah, that’s what I do. That’s how I see. You know, that’s what I’ve been doing. You know, he’s moved up within the organization. And so, and then we have millennials and other younger generations, they should they show up as leaders, they expect to lead, right. They’re leading their own lives, you know, they’re, they, they’re, they’re making movement and progress and evolving with the skills and different ways of boss yourself, you know, so they’re not looking for someone to just tell them what to do, and without any explanation, they want to know why, they want to know why that decision made. They want to know why they should show up for work, you know, and what’s the purpose of it and, and that’s a core factor, obviously of leading yourself. And so, more and more conscious or not, I say everyone is a leader, where you may be aware of that you may be practicing it or not. But then the other thing is that the world is so complicated, and it changes so quickly. That increasingly, and I think I expect eventually, almost always, any problem any project needs leaders from across the organization. So you have a cross functional team, integrated team, you know, to get work done and that’s a vital, vital structure that needs to be in place. I mean, either explicitly or not, to help help work that out. So those are factors that I see that say, Yeah, everyone is showing up more as a leader.

Murray Guest  

Well, I think it links back to what you’re talking about before with improv. If you’ve got people from different parts of the organization, they bring different experiences, different perspectives, different points of view, and then we create something we didn’t know was possible, yet.

Jeff Spahn  

Create something we haven’t seen. I love the image of a puzzle. But the key about that puzzle box, it’s it’s white or it’s black. It’s there’s no picture on that puzzle. Yeah, right. Yeah, there’s no, we don’t know the outcome of the puzzle.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha.

Jeff Spahn  

You see what I’m saying? That’s the improv nature of it. And then the pieces of the project puzzle or the team puzzle, are what I currently think and feel. That’s me leading me right there, right. And then everyone brings what they currently think and feel and there’s gonna be some tension for sure. But if we hold the space for that, and allow for the connections, whoo, we start to see what this puzzle actually is. And that’s the foundation of contemporary innovation. That and that’s where I think collaboration is really dated because co-labor is related to industrial age. Co-labor, labor, you did something, you labored on something someone else decided. And yet, that’s the word we still use to exemplify good leadership. Now I get its linguistics, but there’s often our language reveals the limits, the unconscious limits of our thinking.

Murray Guest  

So what’s the word we want to switch collaboration with.

Jeff Spahn  

I would use the word co create. And I’m looking for another word. That’s the one I would use right now. You know, that we are co creators. We each have equal different vital pieces to the human puzzle, or to the project puzzle, the organizational puzzle, or the problem we’re facing.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. I like that. Co create. And you keep coming back to that equal, different, vital. The vital stands out to me as something a little bit unique too, Jeff.

Jeff Spahn  

And that fits. Oh, go ahead.

Murray Guest  

No, no, you go you go because I’m excited about that.

Jeff Spahn  

Well that fits into the the leader, the me the leader piece, the diversifier and so, every person, if you were doing that puzzle, right, let’s just say we’re doing an actual physical puzzle, right. And I’ve got two or three of my pieces hiding in my back pocket. I’m withholding because, you know, maybe I got shot down or whatever. And here the pieces are what I currently think of feel. And then that puzzle is not going to come together, you know, it’s it’s not going to have it you need every piece to finish that puzzle.

Murray Guest  

You’ve just got me thinking of a such a great question to put to leaders right now. And that is what pieces of this puzzle that we’re facing are you holding back right now? Yeah, because that’s that image of, I’ve got these pieces. I’m going to keep them in my back pocket. I’m a bit pissed off about something you said last week, or whatever it is, you know, right. Oh, yeah, I like that Jeff.

Jeff Spahn  

The other question is that, let’s go with, let’s stay with the puzzle metaphor. So the the other thing that doesn’t happen when it’s puzzle successfully comes together is no one says, My piece is the whole puzzle. You know, I’m not here for you to conform to my pieces. Or to think like me. But I’m here to have our differences exposed. So that’s different to if I’m if I’m the leader and a traditional leader then I’m trying to convince everyone of my piece and then that’s what it means to lead, isn’t it? You know, and then people do what I want them to do. And that puzzle was not going to get put together. So the other question could be is, you know, how are you imposing your perspective? How do you want to convince the team of your point of view? Yeah, are your questions sincere? Are they really questions? Or are they ways to get people to think the way you want to think? They call that faux collaboration. You know, a lot of leaders that oh, they’re, I know how to ask questions. But but you get the feeling that there’s something behind that question, that they already have a predetermined outcome. And that’s the key thing about someone being ready. Are they ready to let go of that predetermined outcome? And really believe in the team, that team is smarter than they are.

Murray Guest  

And let go of that need for being right. Yes, exactly. Yeah, that’s it. I’ve got the answer my ways the right way, but I’m just going to tick the box. Let’s let all that go.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that’s the the excruciating and exhilarating part of improvisation. You don’t know what’s gonna happen. But we do have the safety net of the decision making model that I told, you know, deciding how to decide and sharing how the decision’s going to be made. It’s it’s, it’s it’s that that is a safety net. And I think a very important structure to have in the context of improv and today’s business hierarchies. Yeah, so I’m not dissing hierarchies completely. I’m reimagining hierarchy as facilitating improvisation. Or facilitating collective flow.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha. Gotcha. Because at the end of the day, we still need some, challenge me on this of course, but at the end of the day, we still need someone to be held accountable for that final decision. Yeah, I’m just thinking that that’s true. Yeah.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Yeah. I think the more that accountability can become spread, the more powerful it is. But you don’t want to, I don’t want to throw out accountability. Yeah, because you got to have it and I can think of clients where what happened was they they were re inventing themselves, they understood they had to become more creative. And so they created equal teams. Teams of equals. Yeah, and and but then some of those really flew, but many of them didn’t make any decisions. Nobody made a decision. And then they started to have people make decisions have a formal leader, and then they lost the creativity. And they were interested in we the leader because it it could it could address both of those challenges. Does that make sense?

Murray Guest  

It does. Because I’m a big believer of structure enables flexibility. And, like you say..

Jeff Spahn  

I like that, would you say that again, please? 

Murray Guest  

Structure enables flexibility. And so we can’t have the improv without the agreement around how we’re going to make our decisions when we need to. Yeah, yeah. So and then the analogy I’ve used around this sometimes is the flight plan for a pilot, the pilot takes off, he has a flight plan or she has a flight plan of where they’re flying. And if they don’t have that, they don’t know how they can modify where they’re flying, depending on the weather or the holding pattern that’s needed. We don’t just take off on a plane somewhere. So we need that plan to know when we can flex.

Jeff Spahn  

Yes. Yeah, without the plan you have nothing to flex.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Jeff Spahn  

I really like that. Yeah, that’s that that to me is an example of consilience which is a word that comes from Eduardo Wilson’s book on consilience. And it’s the idea that evolutionary biologists what he says is that the fundamental impulse of life is the jumping together of opposing energies for something new. And you you just set you know structure and flexibility, well structure is not flexible and flexibility’s not structure, but no they are. They’re one in the same. And and that that fundamental principle you say yes, I say no. Well, hey, there’s a third you know, there’s a third way one is an opportunity for creativity. It’s in our DNA. It’s how we create each other. And then that plays itself out in we the leader because for we the leader, you’re a leader and a follower. I’m a leader and a follower. How do we as leader followers, lead projects, teams in organizations? And it’s about leading and following at the same time, just like you have the structure and the flexibility. It’s not either or, it’s not one person either or, it’s both leading and following at the same time, and that’s, that’s the innovative component of we the leader. Iin process and in practice, if that makes sense.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And again, it comes back to the, the let’s call the opposites of the hierarchy. And the we the leader, yes, we have both and they work together.

Jeff Spahn  

They don’t just work together, they’re mutually enhancing. They make, the structure makes the improv or flow better. And the flow makes the hierarchy better. And if you want to have more power, this is the best way to do it. It’s about increasing the pie right? So that the pie is bigger. And to do that, you need to have both of these seemingly opposite energies interplaying in a way that’s mutually enhancing. That’s where the magic is. That’s where it’s like, wow, this is, I feel alive right now. You know, this is where we want to be.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And that’s what we want people to feel more of when they going to work every day.

Jeff Spahn  

Well, you know, I don’t think I’ve ever said this before, but as I’m hearing you, you say that’s what comes to my mind. You know, people talk quite a bit about birth rights. Yeah. I think it’s a birthright, you know, to, to live in this space we’re describing, that’s what we’ve been created to live in. And we’re headed in that direction as far as I’m concerned.

Murray Guest  

I agree. And I think there’s been a lot of talk I’m sure you’ve seen it about the great resignation. And the way that I’ve talked a bit about that recently is it’s a great realignment. It’s that realignment about what’s important to me, what’s the way I want to work and what does that look like? And what we’re talking about, I think is what people want. They want to have that connection, the chance to share their ideas, to be heard, to be loud. Yeah, give me a culture where all that happens. And then I’ll want to come to work.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, I like that. The realignment, to one’s own purpose and one’s own sense of being alive. And and if I’m not getting it here, I’m going somewhere where I think I could get credit. Yeah, that’s quite a bit different than a resignation, resignations kind of like well, I’m done. But it’s not I’m done. It’s, I’m moving on.

Murray Guest  

Exactly.

Jeff Spahn  

I’m realigning. You know, that’s what I’m hearing you said, Murray. Yeah, I like that.

Murray Guest  

So Jeff, I’m interested, what are your your plans for 2022?

Jeff Spahn  

Sell a lot of books. And use this as a restart for leading leaders. I’m interested in a gathering a we the leader Academy of mutual learning, having people apply and invite to the academy to actually experience the we the leader process while learning the process. Yeah, and the book is the first step in that direction. I’m very excited about that idea. And I’m looking to get back into doing more client work because I’ve enjoyed client work. I’ve set it aside for several several months here, but I love being a part of having a conversation like this and then okay, how can we make this work and then seeing it come to fruition and people’s lives change and teams do fun things and organizations shift. That’s fun to watch.

Murray Guest  

It is, and again, back to what we’re just talking about. So needed right now, that’s for sure. And anyone that that is listening to this conversation, I’m sure you’ve gotten lots of fun and energy out of Jeff. Full of energy, Jeff, I’m going to put this video on YouTube because honestly, your your energy comes across in the video as well as the audio. It’s been fantastic. I would I would say to anyone, you know, make sure you reach out check out Jeff’s book. There’s a link in the show notes. Also the We the Leader course because that sounds exciting and then have a look at that as well. Because the things you’re talking about are so important and powerful for anyone. You might be a team member, not a let’s call it a defined leader right now from a title, but these concepts apply to everyone.

Jeff Spahn  

I just want to accentuate on that, on the academy piece. Academy of mutual learning. And so everyone will be equal, different and vital, and we’ll practice a process I will initiate but but we will practice the process of mutual learning as an improvisational education opportunity. And that that’s going to be a lot of fun.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, definitely. So yeah, check out the link in the show notes for that. So Jeff, the question I ask everyone I have a chat with is what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Jeff Spahn  

Hmm I’m experiencing inspired energy right now. So you know, it’s kind of like I’ll, I’ll know it when I experience it.

Murray Guest  

I, I like that. I agree. My energy levels going up in this past hour. It’s been fantastic.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. And I think the initial step was the awe, the walk of awe into nature, you know, and I think that got us started, but it’s, you know, I love talking about this, you know, and the other side of inspiration I think is in the Rilke, the German poet. He wrote the book Letters to a Young Poet, and the young man was asking how do I become a poet? And Rilke basically said if you can live without being a poet, don’t be a poet. If you must be a poet, then you’re a poet. And that’s inspiration. You know, I mean, it’s are you doing what you must do? I mean, this is, this is what this is what I bring, this is my contribution to society to the human race, I dedicate the book to the evolution of humanity. I feel like I have an equal different and vital piece. And I’m excited about it and it has a sense of meaning and depth to it. It’s not just a feeling but that feeling is rooted in a contribution.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I totally agree. And I love that. It’s that in a way there’s, you know, people talk about purpose or calling but it’s, as you said, it’s that thing that you must do. If you don’t do it, you feel a bit empty or lost because you’re not doing it. And I think when you tap into that, that’s when that energy sort of comes in. Ah, thank you for sharing your energy with me today. It’s been wonderful.

Jeff Spahn  

Well, thank you for the opportunity. And again for the jump start with the awe walk in nature, so fabulous. Thanks so much.

Murray Guest  

No worries, Jeff. Again, thanks a million. Everyone please check out in the show notes, the link to Jeff’s book, to his website and also check out that Academy for Mutual Learning that Jeff’s talked about. Jeff all the best for 2022 and hope you get plenty of time doing what you love, and out there doing some improv as well.

Jeff Spahn  

Hey, I love it. Best as well to you, Murray. Thanks. It’s been great to meet you.

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