Episode 80 – Ben Bateman | Building a Strengths-based culture at Little Miracles

In this episode I chat with Ben Bateman, head of people and culture for Little Miracles Childcare, father, husband and self proclaimed adrenalin chaser. 

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Ben, welcome to the podcast. It is so good to see you and to be chatting with you. I still reflect on our time four years ago, when you were starting at little miracles, the strengths journey, and I’m so excited to explore what’s been happening and how you’ve been bringing strengths into everything you do. But before we get into all that, how’s life?

Ben Bateman  00:22

Yeah, really good man. In a season where? Yeah, my family’s doing really well. I’m in a good space in myself as well. And yeah, really enjoying life and the work that I’m doing last a roller coaster sets and bumps but by and large might really, really well thank you.

Murray Guest  00:40

Well, good. I am missing some of your travel the sheet because I know you were a bit. You enjoy the travel? Oh, that’s

Ben Bateman  00:47

a very much a sore spot. Yes. I was meant to be going to Japan snowboarding in January. So that’s that’s very much a sore spot. And yeah, I get the guy who stays with work in budget at least twice a year normally say that’s the thing. I’m missing most. I love adventure. So yeah, he got me me.

Murray Guest  01:05

Yeah, I’m, I was meant to be in America this year at the strength summit in Omaha. And obviously that went online. We had plans for a family trip to Europe for a white Christmas. Oh, wow. So that okay, that didn’t happen. But lots of travel plans locally. And I’m just I’m loving seeing the investment in regional. Australia. Yeah. Which is driving all of that, you know, let’s get back and explore our own country as well. So yeah, looking forward to some of that.

Ben Bateman  01:36

Definitely. I’m actually in a user advice in January, man, I’m gonna get a thredbo and do some mountain biking instead this year? Oh, yeah. So I’ve never been June, the summer. So it’s gonna be cool together. There’s no reason to be in nature and explored in a different way. Yeah, I did. A man walking down.

Murray Guest  01:54

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you know it too. And I did thredbo Ah, must have been three, four years ago, and is fantastic. Yeah, and such a great vibe. And, and I’m not as young as you, I don’t bounce as good as you. So I better see what some of the people can do down there. It’s just, you know, it’s like when you get snowboarding do so great. You get some spikes. And there’s some really good trials down there, of course. So

Ben Bateman  02:19

yeah, I’m really gonna take it easy. I am 45.

02:23

So I definitely

Ben Bateman  02:24

don’t be on either. And I’ve got into mountain biking through some of my much younger mates in their 20s. And so, you know, but I take every line very differently to what they do, mate. So we had the conversation with him, should I go to thredbo? Because I’m not, I’m, I’m going by myself too. So it’s very hard at home if I get injured. So yeah, take it easy.

Murray Guest  02:44

So you got to do there’s a couple of loop trails that are quite longer and flowing. And there’s a trail which goes from thredbo out to Lake crackenback, which flows along the river. Okay, and that’s so you got to do that one. That one’s really good. That’s just nice and flowing. Next is crystal Creek clear screen streams. It’s a fantastic how we could talk about mountain biking for the next day, or

Ben Bateman  03:08

should we could I just write that down? Because that sounds good, man,

Murray Guest  03:12

we’re gonna head out to what was the scattering but

Ben Bateman  03:15

I do ironbark with my mate. So yeah, we should do that sometime.

Murray Guest  03:18

Yeah. So mate, just to get to set the scene a little. Tell me what strengths means for you personally, and a strengths based approach.

Ben Bateman  03:28

Wow. So strength for me personally has unlocked my personal development potential. It helped me to have a language to understand myself. Like strengths talks about name, climate and payment, we’ve changed a little bit in lm. And this is me personally to strengths discovery, awareness and development. And we use a lot of other tools before from the disc assessment to Myers Briggs, but that when strengths goes to a whole nother level, for me is the development piece. Those other tools give you good discovery and awareness, but they don’t give you a great development, in my opinion. I’m sure other people get more out of them. But for me personally and professionally at the development side of what strengths has done for us, and then strengths has given me language around my talents as well that I’ve never had before. And that’s been fantastic. 45 I’m trying to be a much healthier whole human being, and actually leaning to my strengths, often to think about my constructive and destructive side of my talents. And give me a framework to think about that. And to really work on my development professionally as a parent, in the way I interact with my wife. And I’m much more gracious with myself to where I lack talent down the bottom in that bottom 10 or 12 and I feel Much more confident. Yeah, to say, look, I just like telling those areas and that that’s okay. I just need to find a partner or a tool to help me become proficient in that area. But yeah, yeah, I make sense.

Murray Guest  05:15

It makes perfect sense to me. You and I are so aligned in what strengths is meant for you. And it’s meant for me, and how it helps me show up more my true self. Yeah. And yeah, in those conversations with everybody in my life, from my children, to my wife, to my family, my biggest family, my friends, my clients, everybody and i, you said something about being a bit more gracious to self. And I’ve found it for myself and for clients to work with about strengths help us be a bit more kind to ourselves around 100 100%. Yeah, beating ourselves up about something that we’re not good at, or that we have a blind spot in. But now understand why and be kind to myself to, you know, lift me out of those dark moments.

Ben Bateman  06:03

Yeah. Yeah, we’re kindred spirits, they might, when you spoke about the true self to like, I’ve done some development work in that area of my wife, and I feel like Strengths lines up really well. We try and understand my true self and be my true self. But that kindness can pace we would even talk in our company about being compassionate, and having self compassion. That’s definitely that kindness is talking about. And I’m young, growing that area, and I’m being able to empower people to be more self compassionate as well, which is so cool. We’re so hard on ourselves. Yeah. And the destructive ways.

Murray Guest  06:41

And 2020 I think you and I were talking before we started our chat today about what you know, the years been, like, for so many people so hard in so many ways. And you know, strengths is a great way for us to understand how we’re showing up, isn’t it? Yeah,

Ben Bateman  06:55

definitely. It’s been good for me to reflect on. Where I am showing up in destructive ways that we talk about strengths a lot. The overextension of our strength is a weakness. And yeah, definitely, that’s where our most destructive often is, in my own extensions of my strengths. And just to know, that have that self awareness has helped me to not go as far down that destructive path, I still take destructive paths, I just tend to not go as fine. Yeah. And then yeah, and strength has been a significant tool in empowering me in that space. And I’m very grateful for.

Murray Guest  07:35

Yeah, I would build on that, too. And add what I’ve had that realization more and more is how it’s enabled me to explain why, or how I’m doing something with other people. Okay. And I was just thinking just recently about my communication and how, with my communication, I’m keen to talk about something and get it out. But the ideas not fully formed. The order, the words aren’t even in the right order, but I want to just talk about it. So it gives me a way to say, Hey, this is something want to talk about, but I haven’t really thought through, and this is where I’m going. And that I think is me permission and confidence to to have that conversation.

Ben Bateman  08:15

Yeah, I love what you just did there, you are aware, self aware of where communication is destructive for you. But you can actually lead with that now. And I do that with my teams a lot. I talk to them fairly quickly, when I want to partner with someone about where I’m not very talented. So that we can actually explore that upfront. This is where I can really frustrate people. And I will go there fairly quickly with teammates, based on their strengths, if they’ve got a lot of executing which I have none, my top 10 that’s going to be an area of frustration more for them than it is for me. So I need to be aware of that, trying to work on with him on that. But part of the way I do that is to help them to know that they can talk to me about that anytime. And I want them to point that out when that’s frustrating. And it will be at some point. Yeah, it’s been really helpful. For from my teams with me.

Murray Guest  09:09

It’s again, it’s a building trust, isn’t it through that permission of Hey, I want you to raise this with me if I’m being a bit destructive.

Ben Bateman  09:17

Yes,

Murray Guest  09:20

Can I ask if there was one strength that you’ve just really embraced? Why not to that, you know, you just, you know, really sees you and as like a grounding strength. What’s one of those ones in your, you know, top five or 10 that you just?

Ben Bateman  09:39

Yeah, ideation is one number one. So what I’m most passionate about the one that gives me the greatest joy, but it wasn’t really until strength. So what’s up four years ago that I really wish I would have said I was a dreamer, as a kid, and even up until that stage and I have a vivid imagination. I didn’t realize how construction It was and how unique it was. That’s partly what I love that strengths is you understand your own uniqueness. Yeah. Helps me not expect other people to be able to dream or say things the way I can. But to you my ideation, something I come back to frequently when I want to feel more alive, I can use really constructive ways. And then also, I can see when my wife would say, I’m so heavenly minded, I’m no earthly good, because I’m busy having cool thoughts and dreams, and I’m ignoring things around the house or my kids or now. I understand that now. And so she’s able to gently remind me, hey, you’ve got some things to do. Besides, I can come back to that I’m in healthy ways now. But, so I’m leaning into it more and more, I’m appreciating it more and more. And I give myself time and permission to use ideation more. But are limited, that might sound weird, or give myself more time but are limited. So I, I dealt with that mean to, you know, I can overdo it, when I should be doing other things. Now, I’m trying to put it into constructive spaces. So I’ll give myself half an hour here on a set on certain days to really lean into my ideation rather than just letting it run in the background all the time.

Murray Guest  11:31

I love what you when you talk about your relationship with Nell. And just reminds me of the relationship I have with Tammy, and how strengths has enabled us to call each other out on behaviors in a positive way. And yeah, and not as positive, let’s just say in a helpful or constructive a loving way, which some people I know do some really great work with strengths and relationships. And that’s one area I really focus on. But I can talk from a personal perspective and like you can about how it just helps us support each other. And God and coach even when their strengths are showing up in in the dark and the light.

Ben Bateman  12:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely helped me to not just understand myself, but be much more gracious with know as well when she is. So achievers one of her top five. It’s really low for me. So one of the things we did, I’ve done here with staff, and with some of our parent community is to get to people’s all 34 linemen up beside each other. And we draw lines and we look for lines where, where one person has a stroke client and one person has a strength flow, and see that as a place for friction. Yep. And we look for what strengths do you have in common? And there’s real places of alignment and collaboration. So it’s been really helpful for me to know where I have. Yeah, we have. So if I pick achiever when nails running hard to achieve, and the last thing I feel like doing is actually giving her space, and also giving my space, myself space. So encouraging, empowering her acknowledging that that’s what she’s needing in that moment. But also being able to speak up and acknowledge that I don’t need that right now. So how do we collaborate somewhere in the middle?

Murray Guest  13:28

Yeah. Tammy has referred to me as her spreadsheet man a number of times, because that’s what I can bring to our relationship. You did start to touch on some of the great work you do it little miracles there. And little miracles have as I understand at the moment, 10 centers and about 300 staff is it?

Ben Bateman  13:48

Yeah, bit of Yes. 300. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Murray Guest  13:51

So tell us about what makes little miracles unique. I’ve got some thoughts cause you do some amazing work. But what comes to mind for you?

Ben Bateman  13:59

What comes to mind for me is focus on people and productivity another some really wonderful companies that Gallup does work with around this. So we’re not unique in that. But it’s something that we’re very passionate about. It does come from our our faith as well. So we are a family owned and operated business. So I’m one of four siblings, that eldest and my parents, the two founders of the business, were Christians. So we don’t want that to be an overt attack people upside the head, everybody needs to come to Jesus kind of thing. It’s by it. So we most of us are not Christians. 90% are not we don’t hire or promote based on people’s faith, we promote and hire based on people’s capacity. So where it does come in really strongly is in our values, and the way we seek to treat People. And that’s so for us, you, people are just as important as productivity or profit. And that’s a tricky balance. But it’s when we work really hard for. We don’t always get it right. But most of our stuff I want to say most, because there’s always, I guess, as a head of people and culture, I get to hear the bits where people don’t like us, from parents to staff. But we overwhelmingly happen to me again yesterday, where a staff members talking about the experience she had in her last center, and the experience, she’s having, sorry, I got that wrong. She came work for us as a trainee, she left and go to deployment position somewhere else. And she just emailed me asking me if we’ve got any deployment positions available, because she wants to come back to a culture where she’s treated with love and respect. Yeah, we hear that story over and over again. So it helps me to understand that it’s not just hot air, but we actually are living a culture where people experience where they are experiencing feeling really valued.

Murray Guest  16:14

Yeah. And I think, from my experience of working with you, you know, nearly four years ago, you know, your name, little miracles, as a organization, you truly live and breathe that know that you do that treating, you know, I would even say big miracles as well, the little miracles of your, your children that you that you teach, develop, grow, nurture, and then the miracles in each staff as well.

Ben Bateman  16:44

Yeah, we would say that everybody has incredible value, and that comes back to our face. So whether it’s a parent, a staff member, a child, or an auxiliary support, so that might be the coals man that drops off, they’re shopping for the food for their children, they are just as valuable as my parents as the founders, everybody has the same level of value, and everybody needs to be treated with that respect. So we work really hard at that, where, yeah, we have a culture called culture of honor. So we’re everybody, there were three pillars we work to that everybody would feel appreciated. Man, it was, and now it’s appreciated, understood. Counting down, and that’s really bad. So significant, appreciate significant and understood the three pillars when it comes to cultural honor. And in that back comes activator, right? So everybody would be honored, everybody will be valued as part of our community. And so we want to be a community and not just a company, we want our staff to know that they are just as valuable as a person and not just as a, an employee, or as a product. So strengths. For us, one of the ways we’ve really used it is that when we do strengths development, we don’t want to just do about their professional life, we really want to be about their personal life as well. So we spent a fair bit of time working with them around how they can use it in their personal life, because to us, that’s just as important as their productivity with us, as a professional educator.

Murray Guest  18:29

And and as you and I just touched on at the start about the impact strengths has made in our personal lives. And as an employer, I’m sure you see the impact it makes in someone’s personal life, when that person starts to embrace strengths in the way that they live and breathe with their life outside of work. And then that flows back into work as well.

Ben Bateman  18:51

100%. So one of the ways that we have done that is we have done partners strengths as well. We offered that where we run nights where a staff member can come they can bring their partner in, that might be a romantic partner, a parent or friend, or send them a code, and they can do their five strengths as well. And we pay for that. Because we want to invest in our staff, personally, and not just professionally. And then yeah, we’ll run a night where we’ll talk about how they can partner to get a better based on their strengths. And the feedback we’ve had from that been phenomenal. Yeah, I love that. And in organization of 300, we probably have 30 staff that are super passionate about strengths and go and develop on their own. They probably have another 30 to 60 that really enjoy it or take any opportunity we provide to be developed. And then we have some in the middle that that really enjoy it, but don’t really want to keep going further. And then we have some that Yeah, I like it, but it hasn’t had a huge impact. Yeah, I’ve got so how do we work with all those groups is one of our challenges and something that we are Trying to reflect on at the end of the year to look at our development process for next year. But for everybody, whether they love it or not, it’s a that’s a common language. Yeah. And that common language of strengths has been vital for our growth, and even vital to our people. Because now I can clearly see where someone’s different to me. And I can I now have a language to honor those differences. When in the past, I probably would have just talked about how those things frustrated me. Now I know where the beauty and not just the brokenness is in people’s talents that are different to mine.

Murray Guest  20:36

Yeah, I know you talk about appreciating the whole of a person that beauty and the brokenness, how does in little miracles, how does strengths help someone move through that brokenness or embrace that and understand that?

Ben Bateman  20:54

Yeah. So we’ve developed a whole another in house development program called wholehearted. And we did that because we’ve had limitations through other two tools we use, which is Gallup strengths. And then we have a leadership tool called transformational leadership. Both as tools are wonderful tools. But what they weren’t helping us to do is to help people through their brokenness, because broken people, break people, and whole people help bring healing to others, and you bring yourself to work every day. So having a culture where we ask everybody to value people, everybody around them is super tricky, right? So I felt like we weren’t actually giving people what we’re asking people to do something that was pretty unachievable. Unless we’re going to help people become more whole. They are going to do destructive things. And I do destructive things, too. So we would talk about being broken healers, we want to help people become more whole, insistently have some brokenness, and we don’t have everything together. But the more people are, the more they’ll be able to find and bring out the wholeness in others, and pre healing to other people.

Murray Guest  22:13

And if you’ve got a culture where everyone’s doing that internal work on themselves, about how I can grow, develop, be better. There’s a ripple effect, isn’t it that lifts the whole culture that lives the whole Center, the whole organization? Yeah.

Ben Bateman  22:28

Yep, beautifully put with, we’re only we’ve only had 10% of our staff go through our whole whole program. It’s only new COVID actually gave some space to work on that. But we’re already seeing an uptick in people’s ability to relate to themselves. So how hard it is to be proud of yourself compassion, knowing we are broken, integrating that, working through it through understanding vulnerability, forgiveness, love, but not mushy, romantic love, self sacrificial kind of love, and how we want to be a community. It’s all about power with and not power over. And part of our conversation as well. We are good at that to varying degrees. But that’s definitely a a goal or something that we’re working really hard towards, how do we be power? And that’s tricky and professional scripts. And because I have power over because of my role. So but how do I denaro power with to the best of my ability? How do I share power instead of you do it? Because I said, I can. I can fire you.

Murray Guest  23:42

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, a lot of teams talk, obviously, about collaboration. And you’re just framing that up in a much more, I think, even productive way, because people say I want to collaborate more. But actually, what does that really look like? And what I’m hearing is, okay, we’ve got power, everyone has a level of power, what does it look like we combine our powers. And we do that with each other? Obviously, strengths is a part of that. But what are those other elements that we bring to the table as well?

Ben Bateman  24:11

Totally. So strengths are that most common language. So we’ve been using a lot of Bernie Browns work, if you know how to program, we’re about to start doing a series with all our leadership groups going through her day to late book. So all our directors and managers we make by meet with them once a month in our three different regions, and I spend an hour talking through a chapter on a book. And then that notes in each region, any staff member from a trainee, right on the way up, if they’re not pilot leadership group can actually come and meet with me and then a group from that region to do that same leadership development. So it’s just something we offer to everybody.

Murray Guest  24:55

I just say, Oh, no, just acknowledge that there for that your time. Your investment in everyone getting that opportunity for their own development. And just that’s not a common approach. There’s been investment in the latest do that. And then I can imagine you going right on a jump in my car and head back home. Yeah. But actually, what you’re putting in place here is I’m actually going to stay and provide this to other people, to help them for their own personal leadership as well. And that’s, I think, such a great approach.

Ben Bateman  25:27

Thank you. I really appreciate that. But it’s living at those days where I can say, I care, I can say that I really well, we would talk often about we want to help everybody reach their full potential. But we need to back that up with action and not just word. And so yeah. And it’s a cost to attach that. Sure. But we believe in the investment into our staff, personally, not just investment into them professionally.

Murray Guest  25:53

Yeah. Something that’s on my mind. And that’s that in strengths we talk about two people can achieve that level of high performance approaching their work differently through their strengths. What does that look like, in a center where you’ve got people, teachers, approaching the way they might do their role through their strengths?

Ben Bateman  26:16

So yeah, beautiful question, and one we use consistently. So in a preschool room, there’s two main things that are important in any day, and that is the care of children, and the education of children. So we needed both of those things from the babies all the way up. And if in strengths, if you’re This is where we use the colors a lot, we were took a staff, the high blue, that are going to naturally see and do the caring side of being an educator. And if you hire purple, you’re gonna naturally see and do the task based things. And so we try in every room to have someone that’s high below and someone that’s high purple, in every room wherever possible, because both those things are equally important. Now, every room has a room leader, and she will usually have an error, actually the be blue, or purple predominately, or lean that way. And so one of the things we do is we actually work with her in layers to help them understand what is their natural, where, who they are first, yeah. Are they executed? Or are they a relationship builder first. And then we talk about that we actually look at the strengths of their team. And we encourage them to understand their strengths, their top five of all their team members, so that they can know where they will frustrate their team, and where they can be that well rounded team. So yeah, we’re looking to have well rounded teams wherever possible. It’s one of the one of the things we major on in strengths is having a well rounded teams and using not individual strengths, but but you’re more using the colors to go Okay, what does this team need? What is going to be the overextension of this particular room later, our room leaders meet with their air manager and their director, at least once a fortnight. And so strengths will be used in those conversations. Sometimes we use strengths for performance development, often,

Murray Guest  28:17

yep, yep. So what does that look like with strengths and performance development? How is that? Is that in a formal process, or is that more in a coaching sort of conversation, or both?

Ben Bateman  28:29

Much more in a coaching conversation. So I’ve done so all that stuff had their top five, but all of our management staff had their all 34s. So everybody, within hopefully, within three months of joining little miracles, does a one hour Skype session with myself a coaching call, usually three to four, three to six other people. And that will be an introduction. But if you’re in the management level, I do a one hour one on one around people’s or 30 fours, looking at their leadership style, and looking at their personal development. And then I will coach them from there periodically, depending on what their needs, so that most of our airmen just have a really good understanding of strengths and use it frequently. If they’ve got a specific performance problem, they will actually often ring me and our will have the phone have a conversation with the air. Imagine the director looking at that stuff in the strength and see if we can use strengths as a way to bring healthy performance management for that person and quit 80% of the time, we can look at a strength that’s being overextended yet, or we can see an area of weakness. And then we can have such healthy conversation with people. If someone’s got four, our top five blue and they’re struggling with getting tasks done, we’re not gonna smack them over the head because that’s not their natural capacity. So we need to find a partner or a tool that will help them become proficient in that area. So when when not gonna, we want to have realistic expectations. strengths helps us to have realistic expectations around what staff can actually do, not what we’d like them to do.

Murray Guest  30:13

Yeah. And if anyone listening that is new to strengths or has limited understanding. I think there can sometimes be this misconception it’s all about unicorns, rainbows and Skittles, and lovey dovey, but strengths helps have those tough conversations doesn’t it Ben.

Ben Bateman  30:30

Yeah, it makes those tough conversations so much more constructive. Yeah, is our experience of it. Because before we’d be more much, helping them with an area of weakness, and not really have anything productive to bring to that lucky vibe, let’s take your communication, which is one of the ones you love in this hall for you. If I have a staff member that’s communicating too frequently talking too much to have a conversation with her about dialing down his strength. And I love your communication. This is where your communication is really helpful to our team to get this when you overextend. Your communication is when it’s destructive. Yeah. asking her to dial down is a much easier conversation, then in the past, we would have said, Can you stop talking so much, please? That what how did she do that?

Murray Guest  31:19

Yeah. And that. And that feels like a personal attack. It’s like, I’m going to talk about an attribute a strength part of you, that you can, as we know, dial up and dial down versus making someone wrong.

Ben Bateman  31:33

Yeah, yeah. And if it’s, if it’s in your top five, you love it, it brings you so much. I’m asking you to stop doing what what you’re passionate about. Like this such. Yes, I strengths has been amazing for us in that space. And yeah, so we would often look at data and dialing down that is the tool we often use in performance development, where they need to dial up or dial down, or where is a partner or a, or a tool that will help them become more proficient? And yeah, we use that a lot.

Murray Guest  32:07

I am going back to a conversation. And when we did some work back four years ago, and one of the I think she was standing up in the director role or the center manager roll out a Blaxland. Center, and she had community competition. And remember, just this beautiful enthusiasm in a real healthy way she was applying that theme to how can we be at our best How can we, in a healthy competition, drive our observations and the development of the children across the rooms are such a great example of the the constructive way to apply that thing. And just I still use it as a an example to other people about the positive application of competition.

Ben Bateman  33:01

Yes, that’s beautiful. So one of my challenges is I’m dyslexic. So I often forget people’s names that I know really well, so I can see her face, she actually became our Director of that center long term until she had her little girl. Yeah, so but she’s still back in the center, but not in the directors role. And one of our other members of our black Center also has high competition. And yet, that center, which is a center that you we that you came in coach this in around strings, so we can get an idea whether we want to roll that strengts across the board. Blaxland is definitely our strongest center when it comes to strengths. So I don’t know if that’s all you Murray or speaks to my lack of credit. No, I’m just kidding. One. So it’s one of the most stable centers in terms of staff have been there for a long time. We are a growing company. So often we will bring a couple of experienced staff will go to the next center to bring strong culture. Yes, black vans being a Blue Mountain center, we only have two of those. They’ve been there for four plus years. So we had a lot of leadership staff there long term. And they love strengths. They’ve really embraced it. And they talk about it frequently. And it was an interesting thing. So I get what strengths has done is allowed us to have a healthy language around differences. Well, each one of my directors actually leads their teams a little bit differently. We’re a reasonable sized company. So we have a lot of policies and procedures. If you go into one little recurse center, it’s very similar to the next. But they are a little bit different because the leader is a little bit different. Yeah. How do we helpfully allow that leader to lead that scene a little bit differently, baby in the little miracles way? and strengths has been one of the The best tools are, by far and away the best tool for us to sometimes help the learner to dial back a little bit when they’re wanting to go too far into their strength when it’s not where the company’s going. But competition where I’ve seen that coming out with those girls is that they’re so staff meetings are amazing, but and the way that they they run competitions between their rooms, but that could be a really unhealthy thing that goes on very conscious of the way they did competition between there between the rooms in their center in a healthy way. And then that center does healthy competition with other centers as well, whenever we get together for big events, that sort of stuff. Black sounds very parochial, and they love to compete with everybody else. But they keep it healthy, and they’re very conscious of it and strengths has been helpful to help us think about that in a healthy way. If

Murray Guest  35:54

you’ve highlighted something to me without saying it, and I just wanted to throw this out there that strengths helps drive clarity. 100%. Yeah. And what I’m thinking is, as you’re saying about how different directors are going to lead through their strengths in a way that works best for them. And through that, combining that with, okay, but we also need to be clear around our expectations, and what is needs to be consistent. So it sort of partners beautifully with his driver of let’s make sure we’re really clear about some expectations as well.

Ben Bateman  36:26

Yes, a role clarity is extremely important for us. It’s something we had a, we’ve had a number of business coaches, and we’ve had one for over eight years. And then we got to a size that was beyond his experience. So we had another one, another business coach. And one of the things that he helped us do was bring clarity to every role from top to bottom in the business. And we’ve seen significant productivity improvements, but also relational improvements, too. Because if it’s clear, then we’re not going to have those frustrations with each other. So who’s responsible? Yeah. is a big one. And so your role clarity is a massive deal to us. But yeah, you within role clarity, we still want to have room for individuality, too. So individualization is half myself from our brother, who is the operations manager, for our general manager, who works alongside family. He has individualization that number three, I think. So, yeah, it’s a big deal to us that we have a lot of standardization. But then we have individualization alongside of that, where possible,

Murray Guest  37:43

yeah, great, great. Um, what else do you know has been really helpful to keep strengths alive and embed into little miracles.

Ben Bateman  37:56

So on doors, when you go into each room so that parents and staff can see the strengths as a photo, each team member has their top five strengths, and a little blurb about how the girls use their strengths in their role. So as a parent as you walk into the room, and before you even walk in, you can choose to look at that. The staff are saying that all the time, then inside the majority adoptees are finding out this isn’t rolled out everywhere. Yep, we have a tool called the best of us, is a strength tool. And that tool, which describes what people need, what frustrates them, what makes them tick. That’s my very loose version of

Murray Guest  38:40

what they bring and what they what you can count on from that page.

Ben Bateman  38:45

Yep. Thanks, man. Details. That’s actually on the inside of the cupboard doors. And so if a staff member is struggling with another team member, they can go to the sheet and have get a quick glimpse of how they can partner with that team. And better. casuals could use that too, as a way to go understand the people they’re working with. I don’t know if we utilize that tool as well as we could. But there are two tools that are front and center in yet. Yeah, every every center that we own.

Murray Guest  39:17

Yeah. And you combine that as you said with a strengths based process when people first joined the business about three months in the coaching you’re doing and into some of the meetings from my understanding as well some of the strengths based language and reference there as well. Yeah,

Ben Bateman  39:33

so, your language is a big one for us. So your strengths is talked about frequently. We do training days where we bring the whole company together. We do that once, sometimes twice a year. Every I get an opportunity at most of those to do some for development. And we will nearly always talk about some component of strength. So you know, we are always trying To bring strengths to the fore, and to make it a common language, that’s got to be something that we continually developing. We can’t just go Okay. Yes, everybody’s done their top five now, you’ve had the introduction session. Good luck. Yeah, if we want this to be common language, and we have to work hard to keep that at the forefront. So we, we do that. We have development channel, as part of our YouTube and on that I have a whole bunch of strings videos on there that I’ve shot with my staff. So that’s on there, they have access to that if they want as well. And make goals can be referred back to that. Um, yeah, I think they’re the main ways that Yeah,

Murray Guest  40:42

yeah, and it’s a combination, what I see there around leadership systems, and that environment, which, and, and the personal strength, space attitudes that people bring those, those four key areas to build a culture where you’re, you’re taking and moving through, which is just amazing to, it’s all those little things. And what I often say to clients is, it’s the little things that cost much to make the difference. And if you do those little things consistently, you build a culture.

Ben Bateman  41:10

Yeah. I’m incredibly fortunate that my parents, and then my siblings, or I’m really believe in strengths, all our partners have done strengths. We use it as a management team, we are all 100%, according to strengths and what it brings. So that makes a massive difference. So it’s from the top down, we believe in strengths. And we’ve seen it make a significant difference to our business. And so that then allows us to filter down, everybody knows it’s important. And then for me, I’ve worked really hard at doing the, I can’t catch 300 people, but I can coach 30. So in coaching 30 key leaders, if they’re if they are bought into strengths, and that for me, I believe means that I need to help them work with strengths that makes a difference in their, in their personal and professional life. If it does that, then they will buy in, and they will use it with their teams. So that’s how I use it strategically. Yeah, I worked really hard with our managers to make sure that they are utilizing strengths in their personal and professional life. And then from that, then they will use it with their teams.

Murray Guest  42:21

Yeah. And as you rightly put it, you’re not there day in day out by the latest they’re day in day out to have those conversations and bring it in into the culture. Something that I’m just also wondering, Ben, and that’s her and strengths based teaching. And is that a journey that little miracles are on is that sort of part of the vision going forward?

Ben Bateman  42:42

Yeah, it’s something we’ve explored a little bit. So we, as a company support a foundation in Bali called the bolo Foundation, which has an orphanage has a street center, and has a school. And one of the ways that we support biolife is, once a year, I go and work with international school teachers in Bali. And I do that by myself, we actually go with a number of primary school teachers from Australia, and some of our preschool educators as well. And we run workshops, to do a whole development for those staff. So we, the way we’ve used strengths there is really to help people understand their teaching style. The way I’ll use that sorry, is to help them understand their teaching style. And they help them understand try to help them understand students learning styles to that they have a way that they approach teaching. And children have a way that they approach approach, learning that strengths can really empower them to understand. Now that’s not a new concept. And there’s so many other ways they can approach that we’ve seen that as really beneficial. And that will be the way that we have used it so far, a little miracles, as well, that teachers understand they have a professional style, they have something that they bring, and also thinking about the children and the fact that they all have individual learning styles as well. So we use some other things around that. But that is one way that we’ve used strengths in that education space.

Murray Guest  44:27

And I think we’re combining that with the the openness of the teacher strengths for parents, that pages, then the parents will understand the different approaches of the different teachers and how they are working with the children and and from my memory, even then those conversations that teachers can have with parents around how the children’s strengths or learning styles are showing up.

Ben Bateman  44:52

Definitely, I said earlier that like 10% of our staff really embrace strengths and that really active strengths evangelists and strength spotters? Yep, so looking for strengths and other people. So that will be the other people will be the children, their teammates, and others. So those staff really are embracing it and looking at trying to spot the kids strengths and and reflect that back. For the majority of stuff, they’re probably not using it to that level. So while we try not to force things, too little miracles, the gods have so much on their plates, that strengths is part of strengths. And the way we mainly use it is for team building and development and performance. That’s strengths, main focus for us at little miracles. Can they use it for education? Yes, and some of them really do. But it’s not a focus for us. And part of it comes down to the fact that you have so much there’s so much on their plate, we try to be super conscious of only giving them tools that are going to be well, strengths is beneficial, but it’s not a necessary task.

Murray Guest  46:07

Yeah. And I guess what? Yeah, what I’ve experienced sometimes is where a tool like strengths people can start to get the blinkers on. And I’d like that that’s the answer for everything. Yeah. Whereas it’s the answer for lots of things like we’re talking about today. But let let’s not be blinding, you’re creating some potential blind spots of getting in the way of doing what you also need to do as well.

Ben Bateman  46:30

Yeah, for us. Because the girls do have a heavy workload, we’ve we’re highly regulated industry, and we’ve got a lot of education as well as care to be done. add an extra that is can become a burden. I I love what you just said in though, because part of my experience with any kind of coaches that sometimes they become that one wide, and think it is the answer to everything. I deeply appreciate that about you, Mary, that you’re not one liner, that strength, that you love it, you’re passionate about it, but it’s not the it’s not the fix everything. And we definitely approach that approach it that way at little miracles as well. It’s really good for some things. But it’s not going to help us with other things. Yeah, great. And we don’t want it to be a cure all. We have a few tools that we use. But what it does well, it does incredibly well.

Murray Guest  47:19

Yeah. Couple of last questions, just to help us wrap up, Ben, and thank you for sharing so much about the amazing work that you’re you’re doing little miracles. One of the questions I’m wondering is, what’s the future look like for little miracles.

Ben Bateman  47:39

I’d like to do a lot more development with our parents and with our staff community, for those people that really do want to go further with it. And then my brother Daniel, who is a head of operations, he has a lot of executing strengths. And he brings a lot of more of the systemization of things are thinks about approaches life, and accompany in that way, in us in a way that I just don’t. So one of things we’re looking at is pre Daniel becoming a coach at some stage in the future as well. So that he can look at the whole suite of tools that that Gallup offer, in the teaching they become a coach brings, and look at it through that lens, because I think they were missing some things because of my lack of talent, certain areas. And now, I feel bad about that by any stretch. But I want to we would love to get better. And one of the ways we can get better is that, like on on a well rounded coach, if we bring another coach on board, we can become well rounded together and be deliver better outcomes for our staff and families.

Murray Guest  48:44

And that’s that’s great awareness as a coach that how your strengths show up in the way you coach. And as I’m sure you’ve experienced, like I have, it’s often about the relationship. So what’s the relationship between the coach and the coachee? Like, and sometimes there’s someone that’s better for that person than you?

Ben Bateman  49:03

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful, man. I love individualization there. Yes. I think it’s super healthy, though. Yeah. Like you as a coach or not, and not the answer to everything either in strength line. Yeah, if you can understand that. And not be so egoic you’ll be a much better coach, you provide much better solutions and fear for people that you will so I was a very healthy thing. You’re doing that good brother.

Murray Guest  49:30

No worries, my friend. There’s some really good things that you’re also doing as little miracles. I know your mom released her book about a year ago or early this year, and you’ve got the enjoying parenting podcast, which is just fantastic. And you were talking before we started today, just about the ups and downs, the constructive destructive behaviors and the roller coaster parenting, which I love. So, I’m going to make sure to link to that podcast so people can listen to that and plus your YouTube channel that you mentioned, make sure we get that on there as well. And, of course, the website where you’ve just doing so many great things, and you’ve got some blogs and things on there as well. So, yeah. So to wrap us up, Ben, tell me what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Ben Bateman  50:15

spot energy. So for me, I think inspired energy is energy that brings inspiration to me, but also brings inspiration to others. So when I think about energy, I think about that flow, so taking people forward. So I want to have inspired energy, and I want to be inspired energy fathers. And that’s an energy that Yeah, is taking people into their, the fullness of who they are.

Murray Guest  50:51

And I think, as we’ve talked through the great work that you you, and your brother and your mum and dad, and everyone’s doing little miracles, you just explained inspired energy. By the way, you don’t just work with your staff. But they’re part of the team and their partners and the community. And that inspired energies report affecting everywhere. So I feel inspired. I’ve got my energy at the end of this conversation, the start. So that’s just awesome, mate. So you’re doing amazing work. And I’m sure that there’s all these little miracles lives that you’re changing through the work that you do. So thank you so much for sharing so openly, honestly, how you’ve embraced strengths, but how it’s part of the culture you’ve created. Really appreciate it.

Ben Bateman  51:39

Pleasure, mate. It’s great to talk to you. Thank you.

Murray Guest  51:42

Great to talk see on the mtn bike at some stage

Ben Bateman  51:46

can be seen.

Murray Guest  51:48

Thanks, Mate.

Episode 74 – Jim Collison | CliftonStrengths Community Manager Gallup

In this episode I chat with Jim Collison, a powerhouse Talent Acquisition and CliftonStrengths Community Manager at Gallup.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Jim, I am so excited to be catching up with you on the podcast, I have known you for, it must be four years. And I’ve heard your voice dozens, if not hundreds of times. So great to have you on the podcast. How’ve you been? How are you this week? 

Jim Collison  00:18

Muz, great to be with you. Sorry in advance that you had to listen to that voice hundreds of times. But I hope it’s been helpful.

Murray Guest  00:26

Definitely been helpful. You are a leader, obviously, in the strengths industry, in the strengths movement, and helping people really more deeply understand what it means to really focus on what it is that makes them so unique. Now, I want to ask you something that I don’t know the answer to to kick us off. Why strength for you?

Jim Collison  00:51

That’s a good, it’s a super good question. Probably 15 years ago, I was a part of an organization that had been purchased by another organization. And we were the one that got bought. And so we were sitting around because there wasn’t a lot to do you know, in the in between time. So I was kind of looking for some things to do. And I came across that book First Break All The Rules. It had to be I mean, it was a brand new book at the time. And I read through it cover to cover and I went oh my gosh, like, not only do I want to be led this way, I want to lead my family this way. And I took that book kind of as a as a parenting guide, kind of crazy. Well, the follow on to that is Now Discover Your Strengths. And so I looked around the building, of the organization I was part of. It had been an early adopter of strengths. And it had never made it to our department. So I looked around the building and found Now Discover Your Strengths and took the assessment. And for the first time ever, kind of nailed me as an individual. Kind of like, yes!

Murray Guest  01:57

Had you done other assessments before strengths?

Jim Collison  02:03

No I really hadn’t. That had just not been a part of a part of what I done. But after taking that one, I remember taking it home and saying not only do we need to parent this way, but this thing really nailed me. And we got a book for Sarah, my wife. And she took it and I think for the first time I understood our marriage. Well, it’s like, oh, okay, so, you know, 15 years ago, early in the strength journey, you know, never could have predicted that my life would have turned out to be what it is today of podcasting a couple times a week on the subject, it seems like especially here during the pandemic. And so that was the early genesis of it that was this opportunity to, to to see it for real, in how those, I hear this experience from people who take it. And I see them online, I talked to them on Facebook, it and that never gets old because that was that was my experience as well.

Murray Guest  02:58

So when you say you really understood your marriage, and I guess the key part of that is understanding Sarah, is there a partnership or a complementary strengths that happened between you and Sarah in your relationship?

Jim Collison  03:13

We finally understood or at least I finally understood our opposites, right? They always say opposites attract. And for the longest time, I never, I never really understood her belief. And I didn’t know what to call it. But I have, I have so little of that I have so much situational ethics, I have so much fire fighting in the moment, I have so many shades of grey. And she is black and white with belief like belief, discipline, one, two for her. And I just didn’t think that was possible in a person, just to be honest, like I was like, there is no way anybody can be that disciplined, and then have those values and beliefs that are so locked in. And so I doubted it for a lot of years. And I just I just didn’t think it could be true. And in some cases, I kind of fought it. And that was not good for our marriage. And so once I understood I could trust it. It was true. It was what she said it was, well that that changed a lot of things for us. And you know, it’s not like the sun came out and rainbows appeared. And they’re unicorns. We still had lots of work to do. Yeah, but it began the process of some, some healing and some moving forward and some other things we struggle with early in our marriage. It was a significant moment.

Murray Guest  04:30

Yeah, for Tammy and I it was her activator and connectedness versus my responsibility. And we would, I would say get triggered at times. Where early on it’d be like, she would say, let’s go for a holiday. Let’s just go! And I’m like, hang on, hang on. We got to organize, have we balanced it out? Have we worked it out with my ex wife, with the kids? Have we budgeted for this? She goes, No it’s all going to work out. My connectedness says it’s all going to work, let’s just go. And I could feel internally that this this was wrong.

Jim Collison  05:05

You know, when we were the we were the opposite of you guys. I’m like, Hey, let’s just go figure this thing out, right? We’ll be fine. Let’s just go figure it out. Let’s get one step at a time, we’ll figure it out. And she wanted to know all the details, she kind of, she needed that stability she wanted, she needed to know, way ahead of what things were happening. And it was it was difficult for us for sure. I’m sure you felt that as well.

Murray Guest  05:32

Yeah. And I would say that, again, like, similar to your story there for us, it’s been a way to have the conversations without getting emotional, not negative emotion. So just saying a helpful emotional way of really understanding each other. And to help say, oh so that’s the way you see the world. And a link here that I can draw, I’ve ran lots of workshops with teams, and the slide with the Don Clifton quote, which says, Let’s look at what’s right with people not fixate on what’s wrong with them. Honestly, Jim, early on, I would sort of introduce that quote, and just move on. And I then came to this realization, we need to really just talk about what does it mean to make people right. And now I have, in sessions, had half an hour to an hour conversations, not even talking about strengths, how do we make people right? And I think that’s what we brought into our marriage. So is that what you think has also happened in your broader family about how we see each other in a way that we look at each other and making each other right, and you know, those differences and appreciating those? 

Jim Collison  06:45

Yeah that’s a really good question. And we started parenting our children kind of with this mindset of let’s figure out what they’re good at. And then let’s really give them every opportunity to do that. And, you know, again, a good example of, you know, you think so, okay, that’s gonna lead to these perfect kids that are going to do these things, right. And, you know, my oldest, big kid, great football player, and we did everything we could to encourage him in the sport to play. And I remember having a conversation, he could have played the one level, maybe scholarship level, here in the United States pretty easily. And I said, you know, we need to do a few things. This was like his junior year, we’re gonna need to do a few things if you’re going to do that, to put you in a position. He goes, Yeah, I’m not really interested in that. Like, it was, he didn’t think about or he had thought about it in advance. He goes, ah my shoulder hurts, and my knees aren’t very good. I don’t want to be crippled for the rest of my life. And you had this realization, like, Oh, as a parent, I was kind of hoping he would continue to play football and none of the other kids were, were athletically inclined. And so this was going to be, for the most part, the end of our kind of sports with our kids. And, but that didn’t mean I kept… Yeah, he was good at it. But that doesn’t mean I just keep pushing him. You know, like, wow, that’s, that’s too bad for you, you’re gonna do this thing. It also means listening. And saying when they say, Hmm, you know, and he had he had solid reasons. Now, there’s been, you know, there’s been times my kids have said, Yeah, I’m not really interested in school, I’m not going to do my homework. And you go, you don’t have a choice. This is what you need to do. Right? So there’s, there’s differences in that, but Muz we really spent an enormous amount of time trying to figure out, where do their gifts and their talents lie. We’ve had top five taken for all the kids. And in not just what their themes are, but then what are those areas where they invest and they really become strengths. And then how can we encourage more of that, and that’s not perfect, by the way, it’s super, super hard to do. Because they don’t know themselves. And so, but but we have spent, you know, the last 15 years really kind of working on that. My youngest daughter is now a senior in college in in a journalism program. And she’s a great example of you know, she was really good at math. And her math teacher was like, she can go places with math. And she’s like, I hate math. I do not want to do this long term. I want to be a journalist. And so we sent her to a j school at a local college around here, I just dropped her off tonight, that’s got a really great program, and she’s thriving in it. And so you know, if we would have followed maybe even her teacher’s recommendations without really talking to her about it and saying, what are your passions? What are you really good at? She’s great at writing and editing and all those things as well. We would have missed it, you know, and so there’s sometimes I think, too, there’s, realizing what they don’t want to do, even if they have the natural talent and aptitude. Maybe it’ll come back at another time. She recognizes it.

Murray Guest  09:57

Do you think that’s also a difference between being good at something, and something that you really love doing that energizes you and you thrive at.

Jim Collison  10:04

Yeah, right on, I’m a really good test taker, like, I am really good at taking tests, but then that information is gone, you would not want me as your doctor, I’d study for the test, and I’d be able to do it on game day. But then, you know, when it came to the actual, practical application of it, I need to do things over and over and over again, you know, I’m a better talker than I am, you know, in science or in math. So, yeah, I do think there are things we’re good at, that we don’t, you know, those things are good every once in a while, but that’s definitely, you know, maybe not where we want to lean all of our time into, and Muz, I think, let me ask you this, let me reverse, you know, the roles here. I think sometimes those things change over time, as well. In other words, I, I discovered some things I get good at it, I do it for a while. And then I kind of figure like, okay, it’s been a season for me, have you had that experience where you’ve done something well for a while, you really enjoyed it, and then it kind of it changes on you?

Murray Guest  11:03

Yeah, well, I reflect back early in my career, being a quality manager, and I would crunch numbers around quality data, using Excel and Access and, you know, out of a data cube and doing all of that. And honestly, Jim, that does not excite me thinking about doing that at all right now. Put me in front of a group of people, you know, getting a chance to talk to someone like you like we are today, that fills me up, that energizes me. Whereas that and, and to find out Communication is, you know, number three in my top five was not a surprise.

Jim Collison  11:39

It’s very similar. I was a data warehousing engineer at the bank when just before they got bought, and I wrote sql. I wrote code, and I was okay at it. I enjoyed doing it. But it’s not something I’d want to do. I’ve done some project management. Nah, that’s not. It’s okay. I can do it. When I got the opportunity to start podcasting, you know, about 11 years ago now and 10 years with my own program. And then about eight years at Gallup, I found, for now, you know I say that people think that this is a foregone conclusion that I’m going to do this forever. And I’m like, right now, it’s great. I don’t know if it’s gonna last forever. I got to make hay while the sun is shining. So I’m doing as much as I can with it now. But that Woo, Communication, back loaded with some Maximizer in there, the Arranger and Activator, they’re perfect in filling that role, that that window may not always be open. But while it is I am. You know, I’m running through it as fast as I can.

Murray Guest  12:44

I think the fact that there have been, what is it? Six seasons? Eight seasons? Of Called To Coach, it links back to what would sort of alluding to here with strengths that there’s a real depth of understanding. It’s not like, hey, we’ve talked about the top the 34 themes, tick the box.

Jim Collison  13:02

Yeah, six seasons of Theme Thursday. Where that’s literally all we do, is talk about the themes. I joke, when I’m around strengths folks, I always joke and say, you know, we get sometimes we get stuck in the name it, name it and name it, we never actually aim that thing towards something. And then I’m a hypocrite because I go right back to the six years of Theme Thursday, that is literally a name it, name it and name it exercise. But it speaks to the depth, right? Each season kind of has a different focus on this. And so the depth alone allows us to continue to work in that space and do those kinds of things.

Murray Guest  13:39

I want to ask you about your experience in podcasting. So I’ve got way less experience than yourself, but I’m absolutely loving it and getting some lessons. What have been some of the biggest lessons you’ve got just by doing podcasting as a, as a thing that you’ve been doing for so long now?

Jim Collison  13:57

Yeah, the number one thing I learned in this is that it’s my job as a podcaster as a web caster, as a broadcaster, whatever you want to call it, interview or whatever. Is to make other people the big deal. Like when I realize it’s my job to amplify other people’s messages, when it’s my job to make other people look great. When it’s my job to get out of the way and let other people have their time in the sun and to shine. It exploded. The you know, the effectiveness of it exploded, as far as it being the people listening to it and people using it, getting out of the way and letting the guest shine. That’s, that’s my job is to stay out of the way. Now, because I’m there and because I say those crazy things, I am Jim Collison and live from the Gallup studios for whatever, right, whatever we’re doing, I’m associated with it. And so I have some I have some recognition with that and it’s good. It’s just enough for me, but I’m not the expert. Right, it’s my job to find the experts. And to make the experts look great. And I think if anything that I’ve learned in this, that’s what I’ve learned is I’m, I’m, I am a good, I’m a good amplifier. I am a good at, hopefully, I’m good at making other people look great. And if that’s what I’m doing, then I’m happy.

Murray Guest  15:24

Can I add to your greatness, if I may? Because I want to highlight you today. It’s asking really good questions, which actually links to being a really good listener. And, and I can hear in the questions you ask, it’s, again, building off what that person is saying, creating this opportunity for them to to shine, and the question you’re asking is giving them that opportunity to do that. And I love the way you do that.

Jim Collison  15:53

It takes a little bit of practice, though Muz, to be honest, like, you know, people say, how do you do it the way you do it? And I said, what I’ve done it 1500 times, you know, I’ve done it, maybe 2000 times like it. I was just driving home tonight thinking I’m doing another podcast next weekend. And they’re gonna ask me like, how many podcasts have you done, and I was starting to piece them together. I think I’ve done, at first I thought like 1000. And then like, No, I think I’ve got a few more. Not bragging about the number that I’ve done. But just understanding the amount of practice, right, is that talent plus investment. That that that adds to this to this equation, right? Or I think it’s times in you, you just picked up a few things along the way. And so yeah, the ability to hear what people are saying, and then they’ll they’ll clue in to one little thing, and you hang on that for a second and then come back around and allow them to expand that out or know just enough things to kind of keep that conversation going. Know the right questions to ask at the right time. To really to really let them shine. Yeah, it’s practice. Like at the end of the day, it’s just practice.

Murray Guest  17:09

I think there’s a link here to coaching and I remember early on in high performance coaching program I did years and years ago, and that message of it’s all about the coachee, not the coach. And for you I’m hearing it’s all about the person you’re interviewing, not about you.

Jim Collison  17:23

Correct. Yeah. Correct. It’s, it’s really about giving them and setting them up to just to put the best foot forward they can and making them feel comfortable. I think this is okay. So that was one, making a big deal. But in the conversation, the second thing is, how do you make people feel comfortable? You know, and tonight, as we were connecting, you know, you’re like, yeah, you’re kind of relaxed. And I’m like, Well, if I was nervous, that would make you nervous. And we may not have that great of a conversation. I feel like it’s my job as the host. When people come on, even if the world is collapsing around us. I have to say, I got this, like, there’s almost, I tell guests, there’s nothing you can do I can’t fix. So don’t worry about that. Like, don’t think about that. You know, don’t worry about the lining. And don’t worry about your microphone, I’ve got all that, I’ll take care of, I’ve done this so many times. I can do this with my eyes closed or sleeping in some cases, because I do dream about podcasting sometimes. Right, it’s my job to make them feel comfortable.

Murray Guest  18:25

So let’s draw a link to the leaders that listen to my podcast. If I’m a leader, and I want to be better at shining the light on someone, creating opportunities for them to grow, and helping them feel relaxed and confident. What’s the lesson from podcasting of how we do that, that leaders could take on? What’s your tip there?

Jim Collison  18:46

As a leader, you got to give up everything. Because, you know, we go into podcasting thinking this is going to be my show. Yeah, like, or this is going to be my thing. And I have to give that up and say, No, this isn’t about me. This is about the other people I’m having on, this is about what’s going on in their world. And I did give that up. And I think leaders, the really good ones get this naturally is that it’s never about me as a leader and how to advance my career. It’s always about advancing the careers of those around me. And, and rising tides lifts all boats. All ships, right. And so it really to be honest with you, if you’re a leader give up on that anyways, there’s, there’s nothing in that, like, you don’t want that next position, just to be 100% honest with you. You’ve got one right in front of you now. And as we record this, you know, it’s October of 2020. Muz we’re in the middle of a crisis. And we need good leaders to kind of give up on themselves and their career and say, How can I advance the careers of others? What can I do to bring this team together and move them forward? The best thing for your career is maybe giving up on it, then really leading people compassionately.

Murray Guest  20:03

I’m loving that we’re having a three hour conversation today, Jim about ego and letting go of the ego. So let’s do this. But you’re right. And can I just say you draw attention to a crisis, let’s just say we’ve got multiple of those at the moment. There’s lots going on. I actually, it’s funny, I think no matter where you are in your role as a leader in an organization, which which point you’re at, whether you’re a new leader, up and coming leader, or you’re, you know, heading towards the end of your career, and it’s about the legacy, it is about the people and those leaders you create around you to lift. Can I ask, just to peel back the layer one more bit? The letting go – what was that like as a journey? I’m sure that wasn’t just a flick of the switch one afternoon? 

Jim Collison  20:55

No it was kind of something I had to realize, even through parenting, was that the less the agenda was about me, and the more of the agenda was about my kids or, or about my marriage, the better it became, the more effective it was. And, and I actually early on, I managed at Gallup and I don’t know if was the best experience because I hadn’t seen yet that this wasn’t really about me. And so maybe, you know, maybe a decade ago that began to kind of really settle in. And I remember and like you said, it’s not like a switch flipped. But I remember at some point thinking, you know, it’s my job to make other people a big deal. Muz when I started doing that, right, when I realized that, my attitude about people changed. And the way I approach people changed. And I began thinking, I don’t care what’s in it for me. Like, this isn’t about me. I don’t care. In fact, oftentimes I have to be, I push things back. Because people want me in them. And I’m like, No, no, it’s not. It’s not about me. And they’re like, I know but we need you. Can you can you please say yes to this? Because we need you right now. We we just recently launched a new podcast in Portuguese, which is super cool. So we have some partners in Brazil, and I helped them get that going. And as we were talking about the format, they were like, Oh, yeah, and you can I’m like, No, no, no, no, I don’t speak that. We don’t care come speak English. And then we’ll speak Portuguese later. And and I kind of resisted it at first and at one point they asked me, no, we need you. Like, could you please be here and stop fighting us to not be here? And and yeah, no, absolutely. I get it. I get it to that point. So but but helping them, sacrificing for them, helping them. It’s why it’s eight o’clock on a Sunday. And I’m spending time with you. It’s why I produce a Theme Thursday in Japanese at 9:30 on a Tuesday and Wednesday nights. It’s why I’ll stay up till 12 to do a podcast in India. Right? Lots of folks like, you know, my friends at Gallup will be like, Man, it’s really late. I’m like, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

Murray Guest  23:17

So I’m linking there to when you find the thing that is your thing that inspires, lifts you, energizes you, you’re given the chance to be your best. Like you’re saying, it doesn’t matter. Because I can really, I’m in that flow. I’m loving it. How do you balance that out with looking after your own health though, that you’re not, you know, let’s say over playing, over dialing something there where you’re putting yourself, because you got to look after yourself through all that as well. So how do you do that?

Jim Collison  23:47

Yeah, you do. And yeah, I think you have to be intentional about that. Is your anything else. Early in the pandemic, I kind of came up with a micro workout concept where I would spend 10 or 15 minutes seven or eight times a day doing little mini workouts and that actually worked out really well for me. In early in the pandemic we had a lot of time. I had more time. Well, yeah, I had more time, a different schedule. When, in the summer when things started, really summer here in the United States. So June, July, August timeframe, things really got busy at Gallup, like things really, really picked up and I found it was just easier to sit in this chair all day. Right? And I’m confessing to you Muz that the last four months have been dismal in that area. Probably not sleeping as well. Probably not, you know, I put on the COVID-19 as they say, right? That I’m gonna have to lose again at some point. Um, well, so I keep saying to myself, it’s a season, things are just crazy right now. Next Wednesday, I leave for a week of vacation and I’m taking off to get some downtime. And by the way, I’m taking a vacation of five years. So this is a good like, a really good thing to get out. Get beyond for a week. And when I get back it’ll be a little bit cooler outside, it’ll give me an opportunity to work out a little bit more. The trick is it’s not forever, you know, it’s just been for four months.

Murray Guest  25:11

So I, over the past few months in my online programs, have asked leaders and team members, do you want life to go back? Do you want life to go back the way it was pre COVID? And out of I think 200 odd people, it was like, 2 or 3% said yes. So I would like to know, what do you think it’s going to look like post the COVID-19? What do you think is, from what you’re hearing, what you’re feeling, what you’re sensing, what do you think it’s gonna look and feel like?

Jim Collison  25:44

A super great question. I think the rubber band is stretched and it will never really go back all the way to where it was before. It’s kind of this, the way I’m kind of thinking, I don’t think what we’re doing today is sustainable, to be honest. I just this, this craziness, this crazy thing we live in right now. It’s not sustainable. How long? I don’t know, if I could predict those kinds of things I’d be wealthy and not have to work another day in my life. So I can’t. But I think eventually we’ll get back to a hybrid. But certainly, what has changed is everyone’s up their game on remote working, and the ability to connect like this. Muz I’ve been doing this for 10 years now. And up until about eight, the first eight years, it was terrible to get people to do this. The lighting was bad. Their audio is bad. Everything was bad, right? Well, now because of work, they’ve had up their game, man that has made my life a lot easier as a podcaster. I just am like, it’s so much easier to get people to connect. And so I think our communication this way has gotten better. The ramifications of that, I’m not sure what that means. Because now I can be reached easier. You know, you’re reaching me at eight o’clock, 8pm on a Sunday night, I’m okay with that. But what will that mean? I don’t know how that all plays out, if that’s a good thing or a bad thing?

Murray Guest  27:10

Yeah, I think the the conversations around our ways of working with teams is really, really important. So let’s get some alignment and agreement around, well, what does that look like? If I’m a team member, I’m working from home three days a week, and my working hours that meet the needs of the business, but I’ve also got that balance, I’m looking after myself and my family at the same time. So removing assumptions and having those conversations is really important.

Jim Collison  27:37

I’ve actually worked more hours at home, you know, down here, sooner, most days start about 7:30 as opposed to use to starting at 8:30, when I would when I drive in most days finish at 5:30 or 6, which is kind of standard for when I was in the office. So I’m starting a little bit earlier, I’m being a little bit more effective. I am fine. I’m sitting a lot more here. Because I used to at least walk to meetings. Now you just dial up people. I am finding though I’m having more smaller meetings throughout the day. And they’re more effective, because we don’t chit chat this way.

Murray Guest  28:17

See, and can I just say that’s a real challenge for teams. And I think I’d love to get your perspective that I think it’s a Simon Sinek quote, which is, “Teams are built before the meeting starts.” And with Zoom, and whatever online platform you’re using, Microsoft Teams or whatever, it’s like, okay, we’re on, let’s chat about the topic, we’ve got not the the investment in us as human to human connecting. So I think it’s really important we don’t skip that. We bring that into the conversation.

Jim Collison  28:46

Yeah. And I try to actually connect early to be there for anybody else joining early and then have those, try to have those conversations. At Gallup we’re a super social company. So the first five minutes is that kind of connecting anyways. What I found in the past, though, is what we did is we talked, we would do that for 10 minutes, and then we’d have 15 minutes of a meeting and then we’d have 25 minutes after the fact. Okay, the 25 minutes is probably fat that we can cut, just to be 100% honest. Virtually, we just cut those off sooner. And so we’re just we’re more effective that way than we were. I am getting way more work done now than I was pre-pandemic, and it’s more satisfying, just to be honest. They’ve invited us to come back in we have all kinds of measures in place to make sure it’s safe and distancing and masked and all that stuff. But I’m finding I come down here in the morning and I’m like, ah, and not for safety reasons. Not for you know, not for what you think. I’m craving the work that I’m able to do here at home because it’s been so successful over the last six months.

Murray Guest  29:55

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. So I’d love to know for people listening, I’m sure would be intrigued. What’s the best thing about working for Gallup?

Jim Collison  30:07

So many great things about working for Gallup.

Murray Guest  30:10

That’s a good thing.

Jim Collison  30:12

It is, you know, the best thing for me is, is this thing called trust. And in the role that I’m in, over the last, especially the last eight years, I’ve worked with people who just trust me. And there’s nothing I… If you ask me, you know, what’s my greatest need? It is to be trusted. And I don’t know why, that’s crazy. You know, I just I mentioned early in this, my wife has belief and discipline, you think that would play nicely into that, and not as much, but at work, I want to be trusted. And and they have, you know, the folks that I work with, trust me to do what I need to get done. And it’s just, it has been in the freedom and the way that I need to get it done. Listen, it hasn’t come without questions. Like I’ve done some things. And they’ve been like, Hey, where are you going with that? I’ve made mistakes in the process. Don’t get me wrong. But that the trust to continue to push forward is is is paramount to my engagement.

Murray Guest  31:15

And obviously, we’ve got some strong links between high trust organizations and high performance and engagement.

Jim Collison  31:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, right on, I think it’s one of those, you know, of the four needs. I mean, that’s one of the four needs of followers.

Murray Guest  31:30

That’s exactly right.

Jim Collison  31:31

I think you just, for me, I don’t need as much stability. I need I do need a little hope. You know, in that, but man, the trust component of it is huge.

Murray Guest  31:43

Yeah. Can I ask if you feel like someone betrays your trust, is that a triggering thing for you? Is that like, hang on. If you don’t get it is that like, hey, we’ve got to sort something out.

Jim Collison  31:58

Yeah, I go a little sideways. If I’m either questioned or, or my integrity is questioned, or I see somebody going around me for something. And, by the way, they may be justified. You know, I don’t walk on water. Right. I walk in water. So it may be justified, but yeah that’s a definite trigger for me, I go a little sideways, when those kinds of things don’t happen.

Murray Guest  32:24

Is there any links you see between your dominant talents and trust?

Jim Collison  32:29

Oh, that’s a great question. I’m going to get coached, I’m gonna, I’m gonna treat this like some free coaching. This is gonna be pretty, pretty great. You know, I think so the Influence for me is so high, right? Four of five are influencing themes. And, and I’m a self admitted influencer, that’s what I do. It’s what my job is to do. And it’s tough if people don’t trust you, it’s tough for that influence to happen. And so I think there’s a correlation between the two, because I’m not just influencing our strengths coaches or I’m not just influencing folks who purchase Clifton strengths, or I’m not just influencing the community, I’m also influencing Gallup people, like it’s equally important that they trust me and that I that I help them move in directions I think is smart for us. And if they don’t trust me, it’s, you know, I just I dive in, I start, you know, calling. Hey, we got to talk about this thing. So yeah, I think it’s tied to the influencing for sure.

Murray Guest  33:28

Well, I mean, that’s a high trust culture to actually be able to ring someone and say, hang on, we need to talk about this and know that you’re coming from a place of good.

Jim Collison  33:37

Well, I just I had a call last week with a co worker who said to me, You said something and hurt my feelings, I just want to tell you that. Oh, what did I say? Sorry, you know, the 1000s of things I say a day. And it was a great moment of just healing and not to be like, Oh, you know I didn’t mean that. He’s like, I know, I know you didn’t. But it did hurt my feelings. I’m like, I’m sorry. Like, I didn’t intend to go down that path. So those kinds of things Muz in some organizations are cancer. And once it starts, right, then it starts then they start saying things and things are said behind people’s backs. And it starts growing in a team and the team falls apart over one person getting their feelings hurt. So I think it is important, we are able to have that openness. I do work with great people that I could just say, hey, that didn’t feel great when you said that. And they don’t immediately go on the defense. Right?

Murray Guest  34:36

I think, I mean, for people listening, that’s a great example of the measure of the trust in the organization, that you can have those conversations, and they can be challenging and constructive. And people are open to having those conversations.

Jim Collison  34:51

Yeah, yeah, it’s not easy. In the moment, I felt really bad. And when I got done with the call I was, then I start thinking about all the things I’ve said in the last couple of weeks, you know, you’re like, Oh my god, am I doing this to everybody? But no, it’s good.

Murray Guest  35:09

I had a company I was working with a few years back and one of their sayings was no triangles. And I loved it. It was, so Murray says something to Jim. Jim says something to Sarah. And Jim says to Sarah, I didn’t like what Mary said. But so then he goes to Sarah, and Sarah goes to me, and then I go back and we’re forming triangles everywhere, instead of just going back and forward. One on one. And it’s just a simple phrase, I loved it.

Jim Collison  35:36

I mean, to be clear, distrust among, in nature is important, because we won’t survive. If you trusted everything right. In, we are the dominant species on the planet, because we trusted each other at that point. And so I mean, that’s, that’s kind of genetically built into us. I think for some folks, it just needs to be learned, like, they just need to learn it’s gonna be okay. We don’t we don’t hang out in tribes anymore. So there’s not a lot of great opportunities for that to happen in our communications a little separated and now we don’t depend upon each other for some of those basic life and death things anymore, right. And so I think you got to kind of help teams along with that. And I’m not talking about falling backwards off the table, right? I’m talking about real world situations where managers practice that with their teams. Where the manager leads by saying, leading by example, and maybe be saying, Hey, I saw this happen. Let’s talk about it. Or, hey, I’m open enough that if I’ve hurt you, in some way, come tell me and then demonstrate what that looks like. When it actually, you know, the manager doesn’t get defensive. The manager doesn’t get angry. That has to be modeled. It’s hard. It’s the hardest part about being a manager, I think.

Murray Guest  36:55

Yeah. So I’m going back to your point earlier about letting go. It’s not about you. And being approachable, and, and being open and vulnerable and having those conversations. If we’re doing those things we are, you know, let’s say breaking some rules, like you said early on.

Jim Collison  37:14

Yeah, it’s not easy. This is not and it’s not magic. It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t, it doesn’t feel good. You think it’s Oh, yeah. Oh, I’m gonna get there. And it’s gonna be Nirvana. Right? No, this is actually in the midst of these these when you do them, right. It’s actually harder. But it’s better in the long run.

Murray Guest  37:33

Well, I think about that ongoing investment in the relationship you have with Sarah, I have with Tammy, as a leader, it’s very similar with your team. It’s that ongoing investment, having those ongoing conversations and doing that as well.

Jim Collison  37:44

Yeah, you gotta keep practicing.

Murray Guest  37:46

Yeah. So I want to go back to one of your top five, which maybe is quite often misunderstood. So Woo. Number two. When you saw that come out in your report, was that a ‘yeah, that’s a validation. I am not surprised,’ or was that a surprise for you?

Jim Collison  38:06

No it got a rock fest, like a fist pump. I was like, Yes. Because it did. I did. I did agree with all of it. Yeah, this is me. 15 years ago, when I first saw it, I didn’t really understand all the nuances of it. And so, you know, yeah, I’d love to, I love to get to know people. I love to be at the center of the attention of the party. I love to be the one pulling people together. I love you know, I loved all those things about it. What I kind of learned to what kind of learned over the years is that these aren’t, you know, being the life of the party is not a success trait. Like that’s not what Don Clifton meant, there’s some there’s some hints in there. But what he meant was, how can you have influence over people and move them in directions? I think it’s kind of the heart of leadership, in getting people, convincing people. I think it’s a sales theme, to be honest, by convincing people to do something different or to do more of the thing that they’re currently doing. Right, be more productive. The key word in there is ‘do’ – to get people to do – like that’s what it, that’s what we’re trying to get done here. And I think maybe the last five years have I really kind of understood as we’ve been doing all the theme Thursday’s that’s an influencing strength. It’s it’s moving people in directions. And I yeah, I really like that. That casts lots of success on a team. And so I got to deploy it through these webcasts. What we do on the webcast is one big woo exercise. Woo and communication, let’s be honest, and those come together pretty frequently.

Murray Guest  39:47

And and Woo, you could see exist as part of who you were even before? You know, knowing that it was…

Jim Collison  39:55

It’s my name. I’m the poster child. Like it should be me in there, I agree with it all, for sure.

Murray Guest  40:04

If you had to get one of your dominant talents tattooed on your body, to say, this is me, like I and I’ve truly lived breathed this, this is me which one or two would it be?

Jim Collison  40:17

I think in the last two years, I never really understood Maximizer. It just didn’t, and I’ve said this on the on the webcast. So if you’ve heard me say this before, I apologize. But I’ll say it again, because he asked the question. We always say quality, like they demand quality, and I didn’t see any of that in me. I mean, I don’t really care, to be honest. Like I say, Good enough, pretty often. And those kids think it’s like, what’s the deal here? And in my 40s, I started running. And I didn’t just run a 10 k, I mean I ran a few. And then I’m like, no, maybe I can run a half. And then I ran a few of those. And then I could probably do a full and then I did five of those. And as I started reflecting back, that’s a whole Maximizer. Because it’s whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing. Right, I’ve said that it has become my mantra over the last couple of years, in discovering that has been especially in the heart of the pandemic. You know, we did all last year, I did 50 webcasts all last year, I did 50 by June this year. I mean, if that is not an example of whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing during a pandemic, I could turn on, you know, a little help from activator in there. Yeah, I could turn on this woo, and communication and maximize, and using my definition, the crap out of it. And so if there’s anything that I that I value now that I didn’t understand just a few years ago, to be honest, that now I really, really value like, it’s probably my one serious strength. You know, it’s probably the one I think this could take me somewhere if I can just harvest this. And it’ll influence all the rest of them. So Maximizer would be the one for me, again, not a quality thing. I don’t make things better, although sometimes I do. I just do more than anybody else does. I can’t stop at one. You know, I gotta, if we’re gonna do one, we could do 10 or 100.

Murray Guest  42:10

So I’m making the assumption that that also just shows up for you week in week out about how do I make this better? How do I improve on the way I’m doing this?

Jim Collison  42:19

Yeah, if improve equals doing more then Yes. Like, I want to do more, and in most cases, Muz to be honest, they have to be done more efficiently. If I’m going to do more, they have to be more efficient. And so that means doing them better. You have a lot of people. So that all fits in that definition.

Murray Guest  42:36

Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. Um, so partnerships play a big part in your life. You’ve got some strong partnerships, you know, Micah is such a great one. What’s been your insights around partnerships over the years that you can really, you know, just reflect on and share that, that that sort of brought to the surface for you about how powerful partnerships are?

Jim Collison  43:03

Well, there, the power of two is amazing. And, you know, Micah is just the tip of the iceberg on my partnerships at Gallup. And some partnership I had that no one in this community will ever know is Jodi Kennedy. And actually, she was my first partner in recruiting. And Jody and I did some amazing things around internships and high school internships, stuff nobody will ever see except a whole different side of the world, right. And a powerful partner. The, the key was, I think, in those partnerships is I had to be willing to give as much as my partner was going to give and that it wasn’t just going to happen, I needed to cultivate it. And so you know, we’re in a little bit of a down cycle with Theme Thursday right now, because we’re done producing for the year, we have one more coming up, I don’t have as many opportunities to connect with Micah during this. She’s become an important part of just my weekly routine over the last six years of talking to her and getting coaching and the time we spend together and so I was just talking to her late last weekend like you know, we’re gonna have to schedule time like it’s this isn’t gonna just happen we’re gonna have to schedule time to be together to make sure we’re having, we’re fostering this. And the other part about that in the relationships is I had to completely be okay that I had to completely be okay with who she was both with with Sarah and with Micah and with Jodi, the gals in my life that I work with, I don’t just work with women. Dean is another great example of guys that I’ve worked with, Mike McDonald is another one right? I think I can you know, Jeremy Petrosini is another one right? That I had to be willing to give just as much in in in really be you know, not come demanding like you, you need to fill this role in my life. That’s not that’s not how it starts. It needs to be back to the you know, the conversation. How do I make like when when I figured out I need to make Micah a big deal. Our relationship began to grow at that point, because everybody wants to be a big deal. And then she reciprocated that.

Murray Guest  45:07

Yeah, yeah. And it shines through in the banter and the way that you just support each other through those those conversations. 

Jim Collison  45:18

Muz let me let me, before we move on from that, let me also say, I think sometimes that call it karma, the universe or whatever, whatever you want to fill in with that. But I think sometimes things align in a way and you connect with a person in a way, doing a job doing a task, doing a thing, where it just, it’s perfect. And in, you know, my work with Jodi, and my work with Micah, and I worked with Dean, the planets are aligned right now. And, and so those things are working really, really, very, very well. And I think you have to take advantage of that when it does hit. You can’t wait for tomorrow, there’s no manyana on there.

Murray Guest  45:58

Yeah.

Jim Collison  45:58

You need to nail it now. Because you don’t know it’s gonna, you know, you don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, you need to jump in with both feet and give it full attention and really maximize it. Again, there’s my Maximizer. Because it may not come back.

Murray Guest  46:15

Can I just say, I’m a) loving us chatting. And we didn’t know that where this would go. And, and I and I had no hesitation at all about where we’d go and b) the ideas that we’re sharing. You’re bringing up around what people can actually do about this stuff. So what I’m thinking right now is if you’re listening to this conversation, thinking, Okay, where do I take this? Take time out to think about those partnerships you have right now. And how do you actually invest in them even more, so that you can create what Jim’s talking about? And strengthen those partnerships, create the opportunity for us both to be the best that you can be.

Jim Collison  46:56

I think it starts with a simple question. What can I do for you today? Like, so many people are just waiting to hear those words. Like what can I do for you today? How can I help you? And then actually do it. Like it’s not, it’s not rocket science.

Murray Guest  47:12

Yeah.

Jim Collison  47:13

It’s it’s just a matter. It’s hard. Don’t get me wrong. It’s hard. But asking that question. What can I do for you today is super important.

Murray Guest  47:25

Besides the partnerships, and what we’ve talked about today, what’s your biggest reflection on 2020?

Jim Collison  47:39

We’re not through it yet. We have a we have a lot to,

Murray Guest  47:45

You have an election coming up too by the way.

Jim Collison  47:46

I know, I know it, trust me. And I just I just recorded the Gallup podcast, which I’m an executive producer for. We did an interview on Saturday for that. And I was listening to them talk and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, we have so much. We have so much yet to go through the year. Um, I am, well it’s been a disaster in a lot of ways, and a lot of people’s lives have been changed in this. I don’t like to waste any opportunity. And I think for some folks, this is an opportunity, an opportunity to retool, I think for some organizations, this is an opportunity to retool, for many of them, they’re decimated, and they’re gonna have to re hire back. Why not do it on a strengths based basis? Like, why not start doing things right now, if you’re changing jobs, maybe you’re listening to this, and you’re unemployed, and you’re thinking how to find a job, your next job, by the way, it’s a great opportunity to interview them before you go there to go to a strengths-based organization to get what you are looking for, to begin with. And so I don’t want to minimize anybody’s pain and suffering and difficult time at this point. I’m not trying to say, thank goodness for this. I’m not. It’s been a disaster for many people, and I definitely feel for them. Saturday was international Mental Health Day. And it came at a good time, because we all need to check that right. But at the same token, for some folks, this is going to be the opportunity they were waiting for. They were in a crappy job that they just couldn’t leave because they were afraid, or they didn’t want to leave because they were they don’t want to take the risk. Right. And for some organizations, they didn’t deserve to be around. Like, they were doing things terribly. And this shook it out. Right. And so I guess, you know, it’s I don’t want to say look on the bright side of everything, because I don’t think that’s what I’m trying to say here. But there are opportunities in this and as 2020 shakes out, I guess for the leaders that are listening, what kind of new opportunities do you have to make things better? Okay, how do you start 2021 better? What can you do right now, to finish 2020 strong. I think there’s some options for some people there.

Murray Guest  50:01

What I’m thinking about that, too is, you know, what can you do? What’s in your control? What can you take action on right now? There’s a bunch of things happening in the world right now that are out of our control. But what can you do that’s in your control, in your influence, and you take action on those things right now? And I think that’s been highlighted in 2020. I think trust, you mentioned trust and how important that is to you. But also think trust has been heightened and highlighted how important it is. Because we work these different working arrangements and people working different hours and flexibility. That doesn’t work without trust. We’re going to keep building that trust going forward.

Jim Collison  50:35

I totally agree.

Murray Guest  50:38

What’s the future of the strengths movement? In 25 words or less?

Jim Collison  50:43

I think it’s, I think it’s strong. I think it’s strong. And we have so many great, we’re just getting started Muz. Like, we haven’t reached any peak. There’s no like, we’re just getting going and by the way, I think for this next generation, these Gen Z years, or whatever we’re going to call them. They get this, but I think naturally, they get this. We don’t have to fight them. They understand that. Oh, yeah. If I focus on what I’m good at, yeah. So you know, the next generation, the working generation that’s coming in now, the young kids, they get it. And by the way, let’s stop picking on them. Okay, leaders, let’s stop making them feel bad about who they are. They’re the next generation. Let’s pump into them some confidence and stability, some hope, some trust, like, let’s start getting that into them, because they’re the next gen for us. And I think they’re going to be fantastic. My daughter is one of them. And I’m kind of looking forward to watching this generation rocket.

Murray Guest  51:45

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that’s a point that you kick that off with that so important that it’s not like, Hey, we’re there. Let’s tick the box. Because as you said, it’s still going, it’s still growing. There’s a depth that’s just evolving all the time. And, you know, let’s be honest, it’s not just Gallup that’s talking about strengths. You know, the amount of times I hear people saying, Hey, this is a good thing. We should be focusing on what people do at their best.

Jim Collison  52:11

Yeah, yeah. And we just have a system to do it. And it’s a pretty great system, I think. But we’ve got a lot of work to do. And you know, at the end of the day, doesn’t matter if, if I’m an Arranger, Woo, Maximizer, Communication, Activator, but it doesn’t matter if I’m not using it. We got to get people out there focusing on that using that for success.

Murray Guest  52:31

Yeah. 100%. Totally agree. I have a couple of questions to wrap us up in this wonderful conversation, let you get back to your Sunday night of relaxing. First question is, What is your definition of inspired energy?

Jim Collison  52:47

Yeah, you asked that on the form, by the way, I don’t ever relax. That’s just not a part of what I do. So let’s, let’s get that done. You know, and I think that maybe fits into my definition of inspired energy. Like, right now I’m in the zone, I can’t, I don’t want to relax. I don’t, I don’t need to relax. For the most part. Even on this vacation that I mentioned I’m going on earlier, it’s kind of a working vacation, I got some things planned. We’re gonna do some fun stuff. But it’s that energy driven when you’re wholly and completely engaged. Those are big definitions that there’s always, there’s always exceptions, right. But when you’re wholly and completely engaged in something, that energy that comes from that, if you ask me, I’d say that’s inspired energy. That’s how I would I would define it.

Murray Guest  53:30

Yeah, and I can feel that in the way you talk about your work and what this has been like for you, and the levels of productivity and satisfaction that you’re playing in. You know, it’s like, there’s exponential building on that energy, isn’t it? Like, yeah, I’m working, but I’ve got more energy.

Jim Collison  53:51

Exactly. You don’t want to stop. I’d say 530. And I’m like, I need to. I’ve been tracking down coaches around the world who I’ve lost contact with, by email. It’s an I have to find them on LinkedIn. It’s incredibly, it’s just manual. And I am pumping through those. I’ve done 1600 of those Muz over the last month and a half, just grinding through them because it needs to be done. Right. It’s just what I need to find these people that’s inspired right? Yeah, I have to find these people.

Murray Guest  54:18

Love it. Love it. And my friend, where’s the best place for people to connect with you online?

Jim Collison  54:25

Well, that’s always a great question, because I’m all over the place. The greatest place to connect with our strengths related work, is at Gallup.com/cliftonstrengths. And there are tons of resources available there, including all these podcasts that we talked about. The last couple years. They have transcripts associated with them. We have pull quotes in there all kinds of great materials. By the way, there’s great folks like Roy and Mark and Micah who do all that with me, right? Pretty, pretty incredible work that they do behind the scenes there. And so that’s really the best kind of way. If you want to, if you have questions about anything at Gallup, it’s easier to remember coaching@gallup.com, if you want to, they’ll route that to me if that’s what needs to go there. But that’s a lot easier than remembering my email address. So coaching@gallup.com.

Murray Guest  55:11

Fantastic. And I’ll make sure there’s links to the Gallup website and to that email, but also the Facebook group for anyone that’s interested in Strengths, if they’re not already a member, because it is such a healthy, generous community as well. So I’m gonna make a shout out to that community as well. Jim, I just want to take a moment to also celebrate, acknowledge the work that you do do. That constant that you have been for all those seasons of Call to Coach and everything else that you do. It’s really the podcast. And also for that community I just mentioned, where you are the backbone. And the head, often around just steering that supporting that creating a space for people to share, to learn to grow to support, and this passion you have to support others, and to lift them up. And to do that, and the strength space movement wouldn’t be where it’s at without that consistent energy and focus you give it and as someone that has been the receiver of that, I can’t thank you enough. Have a beer with you next time in Omaha whenever that is, but on on behalf of the community I want to thank you so much for all that you do.

Jim Collison  56:29

Muz those are very, very kind words. And I appreciate that. And thanks just for the just for being a solid partner out there with us. I couldn’t do this if I was shouting from the mountaintop, and there weren’t people doing things like creating their own podcast. It couldn’t be just me. And so thank you for the work that you do to continue to help get the word out and to coach people in the work that you do and workshops and in the coaching. So thank you.

Murray Guest  57:00

Wonderful, Jim, and I’ve loved our conversation on this podcast. It’s been fantastic, so much gold in this conversation today. Really appreciate it. And certainly, if anyone’s listening, you got something out of this conversation, which I’m sure you did. Please make sure you share it online, tag Jim and myself and also use the hashtag inspired energy. And if you have any questions, as Jim said, make sure you flick those through to coaching@gallup.com. And he will get back to you or someone from the Gallup team will as well. Jim all the best for the remainder of a productive healthy, happy 2020. And I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

Jim Collison  57:38

Yeah you as well. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Murray Guest  57:41

Thank you.

​

Episode 72 – Chris Miller | Strengths Coach, Consultant, Facilitator

In this episode I chat with Chris Miller, an experienced business, executive and personal coach, based in Wellington NZ, who consistently inspires exceptional results

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:02

Welcome, Chris, to the podcast. Great to have you. How are you on this winter morning?

Christopher Miller  00:08

Very well. Thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s nice and sunny, but windy in Wellington.

Murray Guest  00:13

Yeah, Wellington has that that reputation for getting a bit windy and a bit cold, how’s it been?

Christopher Miller  00:20

Oh, it’s been alright. I mean, we’ve traveled winter reasonably well, it hasn’t been brutal as it can be some years. But it’s been certainly manageable, more than manageable.

Murray Guest  00:34

I’d like to invite anyone and everyone actually, if you haven’t been to Wellington, it’s one of my favorite cities, such a great part of the world. I love New Zealand. And I think Wellington is just such a great size, so much to do and see. It’s a beautiful part of the world. How long have you been in Wellington for?

Christopher Miller  00:52

So I’ve been here since 2007. So a good 13 years now, and Wellington has always been home. We haven’t moved around New Zealand. We started up the coast a little bit and then moved into the center of Wellington. And we’ve been here ever since.

Murray Guest  01:09

Yeah, and as I said, great place to visit. I’ve been there a few times. Love it over there. And obviously, this year 2020 has been a challenging year for so many people, COVID in so many different ways. Chris, how have you been? And how’s the business going after all we’ve been experiencing?

Christopher Miller  01:28

Yeah, it’s been interesting, it’s certainly had its challenges. And like you, there’s a lot of transition from quite a substantial amount of face to face work within Wellington, that I that I offset with a lot of telephone coaching work and kind of video consulting from from where I am. But all of my face to face, obviously during COVID had to transition to zoom sessions. And some of my clients were quite big and we’re juggling multiple people and facilitating coaching sessions with lots of input on the client side. And others were just one on one sessions that switch from face to face coaching in cafes or offices to face to face zoom call or even just a telephone call, which I’ve really enjoyed. There’s a little bit of freedom to just being on the phone with the client and being really focused on them and their needs in a way that that is perhaps different to the face to face relationship that I’ve had. So now that we’ve sort of we’ve started to come out, although we’ve gone back into a certain alert level, I’m kind of mixing up my client relationships with a bit of zoom, a bit of face to face, a bit of telephone. And I think clients are appreciating that variety. I mean, some have a preference but most are quite comfortable doing it quite differently now that we’ve all experienced working from home and what comes with it.

Murray Guest  02:58

I totally agree, I think the appetite for online training and you know, doing sessions over zoom and different formats for coaching. From my experience with my clients and other coaches I’ve been talking to, that appetite’s increased. And that desire to have everything face to face, I think, has changed. I’ve certainly moved forward with my business with a sort of hybrid model where there’s a mix of the online and the face to face because I still love that energy you get in the room. But I think the appetite’s changed.

Christopher Miller  03:31

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and I find it interesting. I think everybody kind of went Zoom mad. And we were all doing face to face zoom sessions, and everybody was getting exhausted by the end of a normal day or by Tuesday, you were wiped out. And I think we all learn from that. And I’m really enjoying, I guess, convincing clients the value of an old fashioned telephone call that doesn’t involve video, that doesn’t involve FaceTime, that doesn’t involve whatever. Because you can imagine where the client is. And you can have a very strong heart to heart conversation that doesn’t require seeing their facial mannerisms and being stuck to a screen.

Murray Guest  04:16

I had a leader, funny you say that, I had a leader, one of my clients in the past few weeks, say I’m sick of zoom, just pick up the phone and give me a phone call. 

Christopher Miller  04:24

Yeah, I think I think everybody has felt that. 

Murray Guest  04:27

Yeah. Now you’re doing some amazing work with organizations with a strengths based approach. And that’s one of the reasons I want to get you on the podcast because I love the work that you do and the impact that makes. Can we just go back a bit in your journey; why strengths for you, and how did you get introduced to this whole world of strengths?

Christopher Miller  04:49

Yeah so I’ll backup, even pre strength, I trained, I’m Canadian by origin and I moved to the UK where I had a fairly substantial pharmaceutical career mostly in sales and marketing. And then towards the end of that career, I was a people leader. And I discovered the art of coaching as an extension of my management skill. And I fell in love with coaching. I fell in love with what it does, how it works, how it gets the best out of people. And so I trained as a corporate executive coach with the Coaching Academy in the UK. And then when my wife and I immigrated to New Zealand, I joined a business coaching company and I coached small businesses for about three years. And then I had the opportunity to join Gallup as an employee and if you join Gallup, you’re instantly converted to the strength movement, but if you don’t buy into the strength movement, don’t join Gallup! So that was a real joy for me. I mean, I’m input and learner in my top five, when I landed at Gallup it was like this avalanche of books to read and white papers and files that reference strengths and engagement and all of the science that Gallup does so well. So I trained as a Gallup coach within Gallup. So I was senior consultant for New Zealand, really leading culture change programs based on strengths and engagement. And really fell in love with the science of strengths at that time. And at the time, I kind of started to understand my own top five and my own top 10. And that was really relevant. But I suppose what, with time, and with the, I guess the, the emphasis on strengths within the Gallup family, the relevance of my strengths to my marriage, and my kids, and my hobbies, and my fitness, it just all kind of exploded about three to four years after I understood my profile for the first time. So that was really, that was really fascinating. And that’s one of the things that I really enjoy doing for clients is, this is not a workplace tool, this is a life tool that happens to work in the workplace.

Murray Guest  07:13

I introduced some new leaders to strengths this week, which was fantastic, those initial conversations, and you and I are so aligned, because my conversations were definitely around, this is the start of the journey about understanding your strengths. And if anyone that’s been through the strengths process, we talk about name it, claim it, aim it, and that aiming and even the claiming can take some time, can’t it?

Christopher Miller  07:37

Yeah, it can. One of the one of the things that I realized about my own coaching, though, because I do corporate executive coaching, mostly within Gallup with Gallup clients, and then I do my own private, small business clients within Wellington. My corporate coaching is normally a single session with a full 34 report. And I used to religiously go through the name it, claim it, aim it process. And unfortunately, as is the way, aiming it came in the last 10 to 15 minutes of the conversation, and I kind of went this is not working for executives who have limited time. So I actually turned it on its head and I now do aim it up front. I asked my clients very clearly at the very beginning of the rapport building of the session is what are some of your biggest goals for this year? And what are some of your biggest challenges, and then we do the walkthrough of their top 10 and their bottom five in the context of those challenges, and it brings it to life much, much more fully I find, than leaving aiming it till the end of a call.

Murray Guest  08:47

I love that, turning it around. And I think you’ve articulated something that I’ve been doing, but I haven’t articulated as well as, as what you just stepped us through. I’ve had clients say to me in my coaching sessions, they say, so tell me, what do I do with my strengths? And then my question back to them is, so what are you trying to achieve? Or what are your goals or what you’re trying to overcome? And we’ll talk about that. And then how do your strengths help you in one of those situations? So yeah, I love how you’ve really thought openly about let’s turn that around.

Christopher Miller  09:18

And don’t get me wrong. That was like a two year process. It didn’t happen overnight. But I kind of had a wake up call one day when I went, I’m coaching the C suite team. And they don’t have time for faffing around on kind of a bit of navel gazing. They really need it to have an impact very early.

Murray Guest  09:38

Yeah, that’s such a good point. And I think, again, thinking about what’s the partnership with a client or a coachee and how much time you have to then best serve them. Because if it’s like a 10 session partnership where you’re working through a number of processes, you might change that process around. So you mentioned strengths has impacted you personally and professionally. If you were to pick one of your top five that’s really made a difference in your life, or a couple, what ones stand out for you?

Christopher Miller  10:08

Yeah, they all have. My number one is interesting because Maximizer for me was kind of mid teens when I first did Strengths Finder, and when I first did Clifton strengths. And then I redid it when I became self employed, when I left the corporate world and became self employed, Maximizer moved from like 17 to number one. And I couldn’t figure out why it had made such a big switch but in time I’ve just fallen in love with it over and over and over again. And so that energy of constant never ending improvement when you are self employed, right, you have to be self motivated to keep improving your business every day, keep improving your client relationships every day. And even in my personal life, the energy of without going over the top with it, but the energy of improving my relationship with my wife and my relationship with my sons. It’s always in my mind, not in an overt way. But I know there’s a piece of me that wants to keep making things better. And several years when I first realized that when it first made the jump from kind of lower down my list to to number one, I kind of fell into the Maximizer trap, which is the perfectionist, making things perfect every step of the way. And I’ve softened on myself, right? My standards for myself were just too high. And I was creating a lot of pressure for myself that was unnecessary, and to be able to relax it and just enjoy the journey of tomorrow will be a little bit better than today. Just make that happen. That it’s been a great philosophy for me to adopt.

Murray Guest  12:01

I have Maximizer number 12. And I reckon early in my life would have been higher. Because as you’re talking through the way you see the world and the way the Maximizer shows up for you, I totally connect with that. I just want to check in you said you’ve done the assessment twice. Did you have much other changing in your dominant strengths and talents when you redid the assessment?

Christopher Miller  12:24

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I did my first assessment was when I joined Gallup, and that was in 2010. And then I set up my own business in September 2017. And in late 2017 or early 2018 I did it the second time. And I really did it on the premise that my mindset as an self employed entrepreneur was very different to my mindset as an employee. And that was my rationale for doing it twice. Now the interesting thing is nine out of my top 13 remain the same. So nine out of my top 13 remain the same, but the four that were added, were very relevant to life as a life in self employment. So Maximizer at number one, my connectedness also came up to number three, my self assurance came up. And that confidence, that ability, like I never would have, I probably grew into the courage to launch my own business. And it was reflected in the movement of my self assurance, which was really interesting.

Murray Guest  13:34

Well, I think those numbers that you just talked us through are consistent with the research of Don Clifton around that repeatability of the assessments. Which is great to hear. And, and certainly my journey, you know, five and a half years ago started my own business, isn’t just a switch overnight, you don’t just go, oh I’ll start a business. Yeah, there’s a journey there. But yeah, I love that that awareness that you’ve got. Can I ask though, is there anything that dropped out of your dominant talents that surprised you?

Christopher Miller  14:05

Well, the funny thing was my I had originally memorized and committed to growing my top 10. And communication was in my top five, in my old pattern, and communication dropped to 13. As as a result of that, I decided I was going to memorize my top 13. So they became my dominant themes. And interestingly enough my relator and strategic are at, sorry, strategic then relator at 14 and 15, I became more aware of the way I was using those in over the last couple of years and I just decided that 15 was a relevant threshold to to acknowledge my dominant themes, but communication dropping out of my top 10 and me being so wedded to being a good communicator, and being proud of having communication originally in my top five meant that I committed my dominant themes much lower down my list.

Murray Guest  15:07

Yeah, and I agree with you there in the the understanding of our dominant group is somewhere, honestly, over my years what I’ve experienced with people I work with it sort of sits somewhere around between 10, maybe 15, 16, where that sort of shifts from that dominant to that sort of, some of the time that I live those strengths. And I can hear your communication still there, Chris, don’t worry, it hasn’t dropped too much. So tell me a bit about how when you partner with a client, you leverage purpose values and strengths to shape their culture.

Christopher Miller  15:50

I love aiming strengths. But in particular, I love aiming strengths at culture as defined by purpose and values. So what a lot of organizations have been reasonably good at is kind of developing a commentary for themselves around purpose and values. But what it misses for me is the journey for the individual of defining their purpose and their values. So I do a lot of sequential facilitation processes that allow a client to discover purpose at an individual level, as well as a collective level, discover and acknowledge values at an individual level and the collective level, right? The values of someone who’s in your business who’s a parent, are different to the values of a millennial who isn’t a parent yet. They’re just different. But if you don’t acknowledge that before you write the values for the organization, then you come out with a list of commentary that half the room doesn’t get or doesn’t accept.

Murray Guest  16:59

And we’re trying to squeeze everyone into matching a set of values.

Christopher Miller  17:03

Well, that’s right. That’s right. And values are not a rule book to live by. They are a philosophy that we agree with. They’re an energy, right, that we all kind of go Yeah, that’s how we want to be seen. That’s how we want to be portrayed. That’s how we want to treat other people. And that formula of building purpose at the individual level, values at the individual level, and then purpose at the organizational level, values at the organizational level, and then asking, how does our strengths profile allow us to express our values and our purpose?

Murray Guest  17:45

Yeah, yeah. And I love what strengths brings from that self awareness of myself and others, and that values understanding for self and others. And that’s just another lens, isn’t it, for understanding how we see the world, how we want to show up and live in the world as well.

Christopher Miller  18:03

That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely, absolutely. And I find it really fascinating that when people both start by separating and then integrating purpose, values and strengths, it takes a different life, it has a different flavor. So when you’ve decided what we care about most in life, and what we care about most at work. And you can overlay that with we are an influencing team or we are an executing team or we are a relationship building team, even after they’ve built the values, you can see the strengths reflected in the language they’ve chosen.

Murray Guest  18:41

Yeah.

Christopher Miller  18:42

Even when you do it without the team grid present in those sessions.

Murray Guest  18:47

For the organization’s you work with, is there a set sequence in which you explore this, that you think works better than others?

Christopher Miller  18:56

Yeah, it’s usually purpose for the individuals, purpose for the organization, values for the individuals, values for the organization. And then how do we aim our strengths at all of that?

Murray Guest  19:10

Yeah, great.

Christopher Miller  19:12

That’s usually it, varies sometimes, but that’s usually the sequence.

Murray Guest  19:16

Yeah. Okay. And at the moment, are you finding that there’s a reset? And we talked a little bit about this before we started recording today, a bit of a reset around values and purpose with all that’s happening in 2020 do you think?

Christopher Miller  19:35

Yeah, there is, it almost feels a bit early. I think people are, some individuals have the energy to bring that to the table like now and they want to change things now. Most organizations are still so uncertain of lockdown, no lockdown, partial lockdown. What does the future hold? Where are we going? Like they’re definitely, they’re there. They’ve definitely had kind of lightbulb moments at home, working from home going, we really should reconsider, think again, about our purpose and values. But I’m not convinced that they are. I’m not convinced that they have thought about the foundations or that they’re in the right emotional mindset to actually start articulating that well. And it depends. Geographically I know, there are things going on in Australia that are different to New Zealand, and different organizations are at different stages of readiness. But I just get the sense that there’s still so much uncertainty about the world, and even our countries, that people are not entirely convinced that a purpose and values exercise are going to bear fruit right now. Early 2021, I suspect may be a good place to start.

Murray Guest  20:57

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it goes back to your process about we need to understand purpose and values at an individual level, because 2020’s journey for each person has been very, very different. And taking that into account right now is too early. We’re still in the midst of it in many areas.

Christopher Miller  21:20

Well, are people leaders brave enough to even tackle the topic of individual purpose, individual values, because that’s a very different, that’s a very different process to what most organizations follow. Most organizations are very good at putting everybody in the room and saying, why do we exist? What is our purpose as an organization, but nobody asked, what is your individual purpose as a people leader? What is your individual purpose as a contributor? What does that look like? How do we capture the organization? How do we make the organizational purpose resonate with your reason for being here?

Murray Guest  21:56

So if someone’s listening to our conversation, and they’re thinking, Well, I have no idea what my purpose is? What’s your advice to that?

Christopher Miller  22:09

It starts in a couple of different ways. I mean, it depends on what their talents are and what their strengths are. I went deep on the literature, right? So Simon Sinek’s publication, Start With Why, not just the purpose led, so Good To Great for example, the Jim Collins classic, talks about purpose at an organizational level, but I kind of extrapolated from that, and ask myself, okay, what coaching questions can I build that elicit a purpose response for me personally, like I did it for myself? And, and it was very much along the lines of just asking, Well, why, why am I here? And what am I here to contribute? And what I was able to do is crystallize, let’s say, it’s probably half a dozen questions along those lines that I’ve now put into a resource that I use with my clients. And it’s and I call it a purpose creator, which is a bit fancy, but the premise is just find the question that resonates with you most, right? What legacy do you want to leave? There are lots of different ways to ask a purpose led question. But your ability to find the right question after the right walk through nature, or sitting by the beach, or being at home with a cup of tea, like whatever the right moment is for you, ask yourself some purpose-led questions and see what comes up. Because somewhere inside you is your purpose. And you know what it is, you’ve just never asked yourself those questions.

Murray Guest  23:45

Yeah, and I think a critical part that you are exploring right now is it’s actually taking the preparation time, not just thinking, alright, I’m gonna work on my purpose right now. It’s, there’s the getting in the right mindset, getting in the right environment, and giving it the time it needs to actually explore it with some self reflection or with some coaching from someone like yourself to actually unpack that, you know, with the right questions. And I think you allude to something also, which I really think is important, is the purpose of someone at different life stages and life areas can be quite different. So someone that’s, you know, in their 60s, that’s been an executive for some time, they might be really focused on legacy versus someone in their 20s. They might be quite different. And that’s not wrong. It’s about Okay, let’s understand what that is for you right now.

Christopher Miller  24:42

Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, and I like to highlight for people mostly when I’m in a workshop environment, rather than one on one. But it’s that spirit of human beings, we are the only living creature on the planet who’s been given the privilege. Being able to rewrite their purpose every single day. So if you want to rewrite your purpose every single day, or create a unique purpose for that day, you can. Now there are lots of people who advocate, you need a purpose for a certain season in your life, or you need a purpose that transcends your entire life. There’s lots of different ways to do it. But the really powerful bit about it is the fact that we are capable of articulating our own purpose, however long you want to live with it.

Murray Guest  25:31

Yeah, and that sounds exciting. To then think about, well, then what’s possible. And I love that, again, want to draw attention to get some clarity in that, invest in that and then start to think about Okay, how can I live my purpose through my strengths?

Christopher Miller  25:48

Yes, yes. Because you and I know that a typically brilliant execution specialist will express a purpose and will live their purpose very differently to a strategic thinker. So your purpose will always be right. But the way you transact that purpose or pursue that purpose may look very different depending on your strength profile.

Murray Guest  26:15

Yeah, yeah. Awesome, awesome. So I also know that you’ve got some great resources on your website, we’ll make sure in the show notes of the podcast that draw people to that. And I think that’s going to also help them explore this a bit more as well. I also want to ask you, Chris, about a love most matrix. I mean, I love the name of it to start with. Tell us about that.

Christopher Miller  26:44

Yeah, sure. So the love most matrix came from my belief, my fundamental belief in strengths philosophy, and knowing that not everybody jumps to knowing their profile overnight, right? So because there are so many people who haven’t been exposed to Clifton strengths, or they’ve done these assessments before and they haven’t bought into it, or there’s something as a, there’s a mental barrier for them to even engage in the strength language. I thought to myself, wouldn’t it be cool if I could design a tool that allowed people to talk strengths without necessarily needing their own profile? And, and that’s where the love matrix came about. And so the love most matrix is, is very simple. It’s only four quadrants, but it’s sitting in a room with an individual or a team and asking them, what do you love most at work or life? What do you love least at work or life? What do you do best? And what do you do worst? At an individual level, it’s really enlightening, because an individual can start owning what they love least and do worst and going, I need to get rid of those. I got to negotiate my way out of those. But at a team level, at team sessions I love because I’ll do it on a whiteboard. And I’ll put everybody’s names down the left hand side, and I’ll put the love most matrix across the top. And I’ll capture everybody’s responses as they give them to each box, right? And it only works when there’s a lot of trust in the team because you have to be willing to really put it out there that you hate something that you’re paid to do. But when you look at the grid, and you start seeing people going, I can’t believe you love that. I hate doing that. Would you mind doing more of that for me? And they start like horse trading in the room based on the love most love least pattern, right? Or the do worse/do best pattern. And it’s just really, it’s a joy to watch people walk through it. Because they kind of go I’m allowed, I’m allowed to admit. And I’m allowed to acknowledge with my boss in the room, that I hate that aspect of my job.

Murray Guest  28:58

Sorry, I’m getting excited. I’m picturing it on the whiteboard. I’m picturing that energy in the room when people are sharing and bring to the surface, maybe some of those things that they may be in the past or just going I have to do this. I don’t want to do it. Now I’ve got the permission to say, you know what, I really just don’t like doing that at all.

Christopher Miller  29:16

Yeah. And and it allows a really valuable next conversation, which is okay, you don’t like that aspect of your job? How do we negotiate that? Can we outsource it? Can we hand it to another member of the team? Can the boss do it? What is our strategy? Or if it has to remain with that individual, how do you leverage your strengths to make that side more palatable, more enjoyable?

Murray Guest  29:43

I love that, Chris, because, again, one of the things I make sure I talk to everyone about when we talk about strengths is it’s not an excuse. So you’ve got this awareness that that’s where my dominant strengths and talents lie, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t, you know, for example, I’ve got a report that’s due, disciplines low, so I just do the report whenever I get around to it. No, no, it’s due on its due date. I’m actually thinking this is a powerful tool for families as well.

Christopher Miller  30:17

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, because in a lot of cases, the kids especially will feel, I guess, a little bit trapped, if they’re faced with a loved least activity or a do worst activity. And they’re kinda like, I know, Mom and Dad want me to do this better. But I don’t have the energy or I don’t have the talent, or I don’t have the desire to get any better at it. So as a parent, you look at the love most and do best stuff and say, Well, how do we fill 99% of your week with those activities? Because you’re going to have a happier child instantly.

Murray Guest  30:58

So Chris, I’ll get back to you within a week about the impact this has on my family. So kids watch out we’re going to be exploring, who’s going to do the dishes and, and mop the floor. Okay.

Christopher Miller  31:13

Well, but the other the other way that I that I look at the tasks that everybody loves least is, what do we have to inject to make it enjoyable, right? Put the music on, dance with the mop, do something fun, tell jokes, have the TV on in the background, whatever, like do something that makes it a more enjoyable process. Because nobody likes doing that activity. Potentially.

Murray Guest  31:37

Yeah, yeah. I’m also obviously seeing the impact this can have for an intact team, where there is work that’s allocated, or work that needs to be done, and just again, bring to the surface around how do we get that work done with a real strengths based and love based approach.

Christopher Miller  31:57

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Or, or my motivation for doing something I don’t like changes if I can, if I can do it through the lens of one of my top five, for example, like if I see it as, if I have high competition, and I see it as beating my brother or sister, well, it becomes a very different activity to have to do the dishes.

Murray Guest  32:20

Yes. And that’s the again, the essence of aiming your strengths to achieve something versus how do I just go about living my strengths? Thank you. That’s a great walkthrough of the love most matrix. And I’d love to know if anyone takes the initiative from what Chris just talked through and applies that with their team. And if you do, please let Chris and I know, tag us on social media, because it sounds like a powerful thing. And of course, reach out to Chris, I’m sure we can help you work with your team on that as well. So Chris, tell me what’s on your plate right now, what are some of the things you’re working on currently?

Christopher Miller  33:02

So I am in the process during lockdown in New Zealand, I knew I kind of solidified my local clients, and I moved them all to phone and zoom. And that all went well. But I lost a lot of my international clients because their markets were so disrupted by COVID-19. And so I had some extra time on my hands. And I used it to really look at my own practice development, right? How am I going to change as a business, in terms of putting myself into the marketplace. So I have been investing in a new website, and have also invested in a magazine that will come out within the next six weeks or so. So that’s been, that’s been a huge amount of work, because the magazine itself is a booklet of client stories, impact on clients, tools that have been used, how those tools have been used with those clients, and then examples of the resources themselves in the magazine itself. So that’s been a big part of my energy lately. What’s been nice in the last, I would say three or four weeks is that some, because the world has gotten a little more stable or a little more used to COVID-19 that my international executive coaching has started to drift back. I’ve also had more leads for my local clients or potentially more new local clients. So my business development effort and my engagement with international clients has has gone up a little bit on top of kind of executing the final throes of the website and the insights magazine. So that’s been really rewarding and I’m going to be, I’m really proud of it. It’s not quite finished yet, but I’m really proud of how it looks at the moment.

Murray Guest  34:58

I’m really excited for that magazine and I look forward to reading that. I mean, that’s a great piece to do, to invest in time to really capture the impact of what you’ve done with your clients. So yeah, really look forward to that coming out in the coming weeks. And of course, your new website, I know what that can be like, that’s a bit of a journey. Sometimes it is. Yeah, so well done on investing the time in that as well. On your website, though, at the moment, you’ve got some work you’ve invested in, your purpose and values, which I think is fantastic, the way you’ve done that, and you’re living and breathing, the type of work you do with your clients. So if anyone wants to check out Chris’s website, either now or the new version, you’re going to see that which I think is great. But something else you’ve got, which to be honest, I haven’t seen on a website before is your greatest imaginable challenges. You got these three things outlined there. And again, I love this. Tell me where that came from. And if you can talk us through those, that’d be great.

Christopher Miller  35:58

I was really, one of my favorite business development books that I actively used extensively in business coaching was Good To Great by Jim Collins, and in Good To Great Jim Collins talks a lot about organizations having a big hairy audacious goal. And everybody, kind of most people, in the business will know that term now. He coined it. It’s very relevant and very special. But I found that a couple of things. One, the big, hairy, audacious goal felt organizational, not individual. And also the word audacious felt very North American to me, and I’m a Canadian, so I kind of went that just irks me sometimes using that language. So I reflected on the three pillars that Jim advocated building a big, hairy, audacious goal and adapted it to an individual. So it is still all about passion. What are you most passionate about? What do you do best in life? What are you best at? And where can you add most value to yourself? Or others? Right? So those are the three principles. And that’s how I coach greatest manageable challenge, I ask those three questions, and I get people to answer them individually to start with. And then I ask them to look at them collectively. And ask yourself, how did they come together? What is your Mount Everest for the next 10 to 20 years of your life? And you can have many, you don’t have to have one, you can have several. But I’ll give you an example in my life. My wife loves cycling, she loves cycling, but she cycles on her own, she doesn’t cycle in a club, she just goes out on her own and cycles. She also, what she does best is she always finishes what she starts, she always finishes what she starts. And in terms of adding value, she knew she wanted to have a meaningful achievement before we left the UK, in this kind of domain. And so she woke up one morning and said, I’m going to cycle the length of Great Britain. And I said, pardon. I said what?! And at the time we had a three year old at home, and she was cycling, but not all that aggressively. And I thought, well, how are you going to do that? Like, how are you going to train for that? And then how are you actually going to execute it. And we learned within four weeks, she had worked out a training plan, she had booked all the bed and breakfasts, eight to 10 weeks later, we were down in Cornwall, starting at Land’s End. And she got on her bike and myself and my three year old son, our eldest son at the time, sat in the car and we picked her up at the end of every day. And we dropped her off at the beginning of every day. And she solo cycled 17 days, up the length of Great Britain. And that was her greatest imaginable challenge. So it can be work related, it can be fitness related, it can be academic, it can be whatever, but just find something you’re passionate about. Find something that plays to your strengths, and find something that you know will add value to you or your family or your community. And see where it leads you because that’s what great lives are made of. I figure we can all get caught in the normalcy of a nine to five just doing stuff. Whereas the greatest imaginable challenge is like a light at the end of the tunnel that says okay, that’s the big thing I’m going to accomplish in the next 10 years.

Murray Guest  39:45

So what’s one of your great imaginable challenges that you’d love to share right now?

Christopher Miller  39:51

Ah, so yeah, thanks, Murray. Probably the most relevant one at the moment. I’m really, I kind of left, I very much moved back from the corporate world into small business coaching with an intention, I had a real reason behind it. I love small businesses, I love owning one. I love helping other owners of small businesses. I love the fact that in most countries around the world, small businesses are like the engine of the economy when you get right down to it. And so I’ve set myself an objective of meaningfully influencing the GDP of New Zealand by investing in the small to medium sized enterprise sector. And, and I have a role model in mind. There, there was a guy named Edward Deming, who was quite famous in the two decades after World War Two. And he went to Japan and helped Japan recover from World War Two. And he was the father of total quality management and continuous quality improvement, like he changed a country. Not single handed. There were a lot of other people who contributed, but he was a catalyst for that.

Murray Guest  41:07

And can I just say, in a real legacy, I mean, Deming is still referred to today for that impact around TQM and continuous improvement.

Christopher Miller  41:16

Yeah, absolutely. And so my own investment in small business coaching, but more than that, it’s more than coaching. It’s me developing intellectual property, like the love most matrix and tools that people can use that are useful and transform a business quite quickly. That’s, that’s where my heart is. And I, again, it’s a 10 to 15 year vision for me, I have, I love what I do. And I see myself working at least that long, if not longer. And so our intention as a family is to be in New Zealand, and for my target market to be very much New Zealand small businesses. And that’s a real dream of mine, if I can, if I can make it happen.

Murray Guest  42:05

I love that, Chris, and thank you for letting me put you on the spot. And thank you for sharing that. Because I think that’s very inspiring to to myself and to other people that do work like we do about getting real clarity in the impact and the why of what you do, and having that long term vision. So you’ve got me thinking more deeply, and how I can get greater clarity in that for myself. So I’ve got a bit of homework out of this podcast, which is awesome, I got to get back to you on that. 

Christopher Miller  42:35

Good. I know a good coach who can help you. 

Murray Guest  42:39

I’ll be in contact, don’t worry. I want to ask a few rapid fire questions. And then we’ll just wrap up with a few more things. But I hope you’re can strap in for a few rapid fire questions. So as someone high in input and learner, if you were to recommend a few books for a leader, what would you recommend?

Christopher Miller  43:10

I would start with Strengths Based Leadership, just because it combines the philosophy of strengths with leadership styles so well. And it articulates the needs of followers in the context of that leadership style. So all of that book is fantastic by Tom Rath, that would be a really good place to start. I think from an organizational point of view, I’d go back to Good to Great, even though it’s dated now. And many of the companies that were assessed, they’ve all gone through lots of change since the book was published, but the principles of the chapters, right, ‘the power of and’, the ‘bhag’, ‘core purpose’, ‘core values’, all of them are principles that a small business or a big business should be following, because they have stood the test of time, and they have created some of the best organizations in the world. So those would be a couple that I’d start with. 

Murray Guest  44:17

Okay so Strengths Based Leadership and Good To Great, fantastic. What’s your definition of culture?

Christopher Miller  44:23

Culture, for me, is how we treat each other and how we treat all of our stakeholders. So internally, it’s leadership and followers. It’s individual contributors with each other. It’s team atmosphere. It’s the how we treat each other as human beings, and what principles do we use to treat our clients and to treat our strategic partners? That for me is what culture is.

Murray Guest  44:57

Yeah, fantastic. If there was one place you could travel in the world right now, if there was no restrictions. Where would you love to go? 

Christopher Miller  45:08

Home to Halifax, Nova Scotia. 

Murray Guest  45:10

Well, that was pretty quick. Yep. Okay, gotcha. If there was anything you could eat right now, without any trouble, if there was like this go to meal that you just wish you could have. What would that be? 

Christopher Miller  45:24

Atlantic lobster. 

Murray Guest  45:25

Oh, in Nova Scotia? I guess? 

Christopher Miller  45:27

That’s right. 

Murray Guest  45:31

Okay. And what’s one of your strengths that’s right down the bottom of your 34 that you are just totally okay with it sitting there.

Christopher Miller  45:46

Yeah, my discipline is pretty low. And I find it really hilarious because a lot of people see me as incredibly productive and very reliable. But I do it without discipline. I do it without routine and structure. I just, I use other strengths to prioritize. But I don’t need a schedule necessarily. So yeah, I’m not, I’m not bothered that it’s at the bottom of my list. It just is what it is. 

Murray Guest  46:14

Understand. Totally got that. And last question, if someone was visiting Wellington, where do you think would be one of the first places they should go?

Christopher Miller  46:27

Te Papa. Te Papa is the National Museum and it’s extraordinary. I mean, even I’ve seen a number of great museums around the world, and Te Papa ranks right up there with what’s the best.

Murray Guest  46:41

So for someone as high in relator, relator number one, I throw questions at people about a whole range of areas of their life, and you’ve answered those quite well. So thank you for opening up, Chris, really appreciate that. And in my trips to Wellington, I haven’t been to the museum. So that’s going up to top of my list. So thank you for that. This is the inspired energy podcast. And I ask everyone this question, What is your definition of inspired energy?

Christopher Miller  47:14

Inspired energy, to me, is built on fulfillment. And fulfillment for me is living your purpose every single day. So inspired energy is your opportunity to live your purpose and feel fulfilled with your life. And that’s a choice thing. That’s not a circumstance thing. That’s a choice. You can choose to feel fulfilled every single day.

Murray Guest  47:42

Love it, love it. Thank you so much. I totally resonate with the power of choice in that. And obviously, there’s a great link there to mindset and the way we approach our situation. And again, links back to your exploration of purpose today, and how important that is. So thank you. And I’ve loved this chat. I’ve been watching you, stalking you online for a while. The great work you do and we’ve met through meetups, and it’s just been so great to just have this conversation today and take the opportunity to share your knowledge and wisdom. So Chris, thank you so much for your generosity in this conversation. 

Christopher Miller  48:26

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Murray Guest  48:29

If you want to find out more about Chris, check out his website, Christophermiller.co.nz and there’ll be a link to that in the show notes. And if you’ve got something from this conversation, which I’m sure you did, Christopher covered so much great examples, resources and strategies you can do. So please, if you’ve got something out of any of this conversation, share it on social media, particularly LinkedIn and tag Christopher and myself, because we’d love to know about that. Chris, all the best for the remainder of 2020, the launch of your magazine, your new website, keep doing the awesome work you do and I look forward to staying in touch. 

Christopher Miller  49:08

Fantastic. Thanks, Murray. 

Murray Guest  49:09

Thanks, mate.

​

Episode 71 – Brigette Landy | Recruitment & Strengths

In this episode I chat with Brigette Landy, a passionate recruiter who loves helping businesses solve their people needs.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

So Brige, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to be catching up with you on this bit of a cold winter’s morning. How are you? 

Brigette Landy  00:09

Yeah, I’m well, thanks Muz. I’m very happy to be here. And thanks for the invite. 

Murray Guest  00:14

I’ve known you for a number of years, and I’ve loved your passion for recruitment and everything that you do. And I’m really looking forward to exploring recruitment, and particularly that customer experience niche that you focus on. How have you been, though, before we get into all that stuff, just in the last few months with COVID? And all that that’s brought us in 2020?

Brigette Landy  00:37

It’s such a fun question, isn’t it? Look, I think most people would agree that it’s been turbulent. I’ve been well, I’ve had my ups and downs, definitely. Especially with three months of working from home in isolation. That truly sent me crazy towards the end of it. So I was really happy to get back to the office. I think it was about a month ago now. And we’ve been able to find a really nice balance of office time and work from home time. We’ve got full flexibility to do that. So kind of balancing out now which is great.

Murray Guest  01:17

So what do you think has been the best and the worst of working from home?

Brigette Landy  01:21

Okay, the best part would be hanging out with Evie all day every day.

Murray Guest  01:26

And Evie is your dog? 

Brigette Landy  01:29

Yeah, the fur child. The worst part would probably be seeing the awful things that she gets up to. She ate a full live bird the other day, she caught a little bird. And yeah, I was trying to chase her to save the bird. But she wouldn’t let me chase her and instead she she gobbled the whole thing down. Beak, feet and all. It was horrifying.

Murray Guest  01:56

Let’s be clear, what sort of dog is Evie? 

Brigette Landy  01:59

Evie is a big standard poodle. Yeah, she’s a big girl. Super cute, but not when she does things like that. 

Murray Guest  02:10

Yeah, of course, I understand. But I mean, you get to experience part of the wild while you’re working from home, which is cool. 

Brigette Landy  02:16

That’s right. 

Murray Guest  02:17

I’m surprised you didn’t say something like tracksuit pants or you know, leisure wear at home all the time. You know?

Brigette Landy  02:23

Maybe the ugg boots? But yeah, definitely hanging with the dog. The worst part was, in reality, was not being around my people, though. That was really hard. I mean, we did daily zooms. But that just doesn’t match up to in person, real face time.

Murray Guest  02:42

I’ve even been talking to a few clients who admittedly say they are introverts. And they’ve also shared that whilst they are an introvert, they’ve missed just that day to day connection, even sitting by someone else in the office and just knowing that they’re there. And you’re sort of saying it a bit, I think lightheartedly, but I think you’re also absolutely correct that the heaviness and the the struggle it’s been for a lot of people being away from their tribe, away from their team they normally work with, it’s been difficult.

Brigette Landy  03:15

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, the amount of change that everyone has been going through, it does create so much weight for everyone. I mean, my top strength is adaptability, right, which means I can change quickly. But as a leader, you have to manage that change for everyone around you and the people that you’re there to support. And it’s it’s a massive thing. I learnt so much about change over the last three months.

Murray Guest  03:45

Yeah, I bet you have. When you think about your team that you lead, what have you also learned about the importance of, you know, connecting with them and these past few months?

Brigette Landy  03:58

Yeah, it’s, it’s super important. I think what I’ve learnt is that we do need that face to face time, we do need that people time. We work in recruitment, of course we’re people, people. But it is so important to connect, and be there for each other and to communicate with each other.

Murray Guest  04:21

Mm hmm. What I’ve also noticed with a number of clients that I’ve been talking to is the frequency of communicating is more often and they’ve really enjoyed that, as opposed to previously maybe saving up conversations or things to talk about in a project for a meeting, which is more spaced out. So that frequency is increased. The other thing is meetings seem to be more effective. Yes, there’s zoom fatigue and ohh not another bloody zoom meeting. But when they’re having those meetings it’s like we’re a bit more switched on, a bit more focused. Have you found similar, do you think, as well?

Brigette Landy  04:56

Definitely. I think when we started we were probably not as effective on zoom. But over the months we’ve definitely adapted and put more structure in place to our meetings, and they are super effective. We get in, half an hour, we’re out, and we can get on with our day. But that time is so valuable as well. Yeah it’s been great.

Murray Guest  05:18

Yeah. And you mentioned change. Obviously, change has been frequent, rapid. Let’s throw in some more adjectives. 

Brigette Landy  05:27

Oh it’s painful sometimes. And, you know, in our world, we’ve got, we’re dealing with all of our clients that are in pain, we’re dealing with so many candidates that are in pain, downturn in business, redundancies, restructures. You know, it’s just huge change for people to deal with. And one thing that you taught me actually was that change is not, you know, there’s no start and end to change. I don’t think it’s, it’s more circular or goes in cycles. So, with the individuals in my team, I found that, you know, we might, one of them might be at the acceptance stage, but any small trigger could loop them back so quickly to fear and anger. So, one of the biggest things that I learnt was to expect that and not be so shocked when someone goes from that, you know, more positive end to the more nervous and frustrated end.

Murray Guest  06:25

Yeah, so I think that’s fantastic to expect it and make it okay.

Brigette Landy  06:31

Make it okay. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, not not fight that as well, you need to accept it and work with it and help that person along.

Murray Guest  06:40

Hmm. So for people listening right now, that maybe don’t have that insight into what it’s been like in the recruitment industry for the past, you know, six months. You know, no one would have obviously thought 2020 was going to start like this, what has it been like for recruitment? 

Brigette Landy  07:00

Look it’s been challenging, as I mentioned at the start, you know, I’d be surprised to hear anyone that said it hasn’t been challenging. But for SAS recruitment and HR, we’re quite lucky to have quite diverse service offerings. So things stayed fairly stable across our engineering supply chain and industrial businesses, had a little bit of a dip, but it was stable for most of that COVID period. And our HR consulting services, obviously, they had a lot of outplacement to do as you expect, but definitely not in my world. My world was hit the hardest. And my team. So I recruit, me and my team recruit, finance, administration, customer experience, marketing and sales. And the businesses that we work with anyway, they’re the positions that they got rid of, straight up, you know, they don’t, they didn’t need salespeople anymore. They weren’t looking to, you know, employ marketing people, even our temporary customer service and admin people, they were finished up earlier than expected, a lot of businesses had permanent staff that they needed to redeploy into those temporary positions. So we were hit really hard in my team, and that’s why I feel like we’ve probably experienced a lot more change than some of the other parts of the business. We restructured. We lost one person from our team. And yeah, that hit us all really hard. But in terms of the recruitment world it is coming back to life. Thankfully. It’s been really interesting, actually. As soon as restrictions lifted, businesses thought yes, we need to rebuild. Let’s hire salespeople. So

Murray Guest  08:51

The switch was turned back on straightaway.

Brigette Landy  08:53

Yeah turned back on, I think, in June and July, I think we had about 10 sales jobs to work on each month. And, you know, just for sales, after such a drop off during COVID, that’s pretty good. So and thankfully, we’ve got awesome candidate managers that were able to, you know, just look through our networks and, and fill those jobs straight from our existing talent pools. So it was, you know, really quick and easy processes, but really valuable as well. So that was really good to see, and other trends that we’re seeing at the moment is clients opting for unbundled services. So rather than engaging us to fill a role completely from end to end, recruitment, processing, or I guess, is choosing to engage us for a certain part of the process. So whether that’s, you know, video interviews, or whether it’s reference checking, or whether it’s searching and coming up with a long list and then handing it over to the client. So chopping up those portions and offering parts of the service as opposed to the full service has been really appealing to some clients.

Murray Guest  10:05

Yeah, I can imagine that flexibility in your processes that helps support different clients in different ways. And, you know, adaptability, number one showing again, awesome for the way that you can see, because I’m sure different clients have different needs. And that’s the individualness I’ve seen in companies and people and teams right now. It’s all very different, isn’t it? It’s not just, it’s impacting everyone the same way. Yeah. Well, I’m also thinking about recruitment being an emotional journey anyway, you know when someone goes for a job, or when someone’s hiring someone and they want the, the exact candidate they’re looking for to fit their team. And there’s additional emotions right now of how important it is. How are you ensuring that your team keeps their emotions up? And doesn’t take on maybe some of that heaviness with all the emotional journey of all the candidates and the people you’re working with?

Brigette Landy  11:04

That’s a really difficult question. But thankfully, my team at the moment are very resilient. You know, they’ve been through what was probably the hardest, it was the hardest time of my career, to be honest, that peak of COVID in those few months. So they’ve been through that. And I think now that they’re seeing some positivity out in the market, you know, they’re not carrying that weight as much anymore. Throughout the three months, it was challenging. As I’ve mentioned, you really had to help people through the change, make sure you connected with them, and stayed in touch with them, doing what you can to support them.

Murray Guest  11:39

And so I can imagine celebrating those little wins are really important along the way to keep that momentum and keep that positive energy along the way.

Brigette Landy  11:47

Yeah, definitely. We’ve had a few little team celebrations, obviously. So but you know, you’ve got to find little ways like that to celebrate, don’t you?

Murray Guest  12:01

Yeah. 100%. So 16 years at Forsythes Recruitment and HR. 

Brigette Landy  12:08

Yes! Why? 

Murray Guest  12:10

Well, congratulations. 

Brigette Landy  12:11

Thanks so much. 

Murray Guest  12:13

And as you know, in recruitment, that length of service isn’t as common these days as it used to be. So I think it’s definitely a testimony to the company you work for and the type of work you do. So that’s awesome. Great to celebrate this week.

Brigette Landy  12:28

Thank you so much. I’ve actually got a post coming out today that acknowledges that and answers a lot of the questions that I face when I tell people that I’ve been with Forsythes for 16 years. And especially because I’m still, you know, in my early 30s, I’m not in my mid 30s till next week. But yeah, it’s it’s, it’s been a ride, that’s for sure, but just so much fun. I work with such awesome people, they’re all a bunch of legends, very supportive, and would help you with anything. The team is awesome. They’re all really smart, really driven, like guns. They’re customer obsessed, which is a huge passion of mine, that customer experience and customer obsession. Which is another reason I say I love recruiting in that niche.

Murray Guest  13:18

So can I ask why recruiting? What drew you to recruitment?

Brigette Landy  13:25

I was thinking about this this morning, actually, I didn’t even know what the word recruitment meant, until about four days into my role at Forsythes. So I was just a little junior burger, straight out of high school. And I remember my first few days, and I was looking at all of these timesheets for temporary people that apparently worked for us. And I’m like, but where are they? And? Yeah, after a few days, I worked it out. Um, so I didn’t choose recruitment, to start with initially, but now definitely, I just love working with businesses to solve their people needs. And I love being part of that solution. In the CX world, in particular, as well, I just love the contact center leaders. You know, the key thing that they’re passionate about, or one of the key parts is people development. And I don’t know, I just love being part of that selection process for them and being able to provide that solution for them.

Murray Guest  14:30

Can you help me understand that customer experience area of the business you know, the call center, the contact center? What makes that unique do you think?

Brigette Landy  14:43

I love recruiting in that space because a lot of the time it’s not about technical skill set. It’s all about behaviors and personalities and culture fit and I get such a kick out of recruiting that sort of stuff as opposed to technical skill set.

Murray Guest  15:06

I can imagine some of those behaviors in those roles. And I’m reflecting back on my time when I looked after Consumer Services many, many years ago, it was about empathy, compassion, listening, a lot of those real people skills that really help you connect with somebody.

Brigette Landy  15:23

Oh, definitely, I think one of the biggest, well at the top of every criteria for us is resilience as well. And that can be a really hard thing to find when you’re recruiting for those sorts of people. And I like the challenge of that, finding that resilience in people. And contact centres are fun, they’ve always got, you know, good vibes, positive vibes only, is my latest hashtag. It’s just a fun place to work, a fun environment to work within.

Murray Guest  16:00

I just was thinking about the amount of our decision making, which is emotional based versus fact based and data based. You know, I bought a car recently. You know, when you go to a restaurant, or you know, all those fashion choices you’re making, there’s emotions, where do they come into play in recruitment, versus they’ve got the qualifications, and they’ve got the data, and, you know, I can do my spreadsheet of all the numbers, but what about the emotional side? How does that fit into your record?

Brigette Landy  16:31

I, when I first started consulting, in recruitment, so it was a couple of years after I’d started in my junior burger role, I based all of my decisions on emotion. So it was, you know, not necessarily how much I liked a person. But it was all about the gut feel that I had about a person. Over the years, I’ve learnt to find ways to evidence that gut feel. You know, it might be as simple as asking behavioral based questions that really shows the evidence that your gut feel is right about that person being the best fit. But we’ve also used psychometric assessment and other tools to find the evidence to back up your gut feel. So there’s a definite balance there, ways to prove that emotional connection. 

Murray Guest  17:26

What’s it like, how would you describe that emotion? Or that feeling when someone gets that role that they’ve been really striving for, dreaming about? And they get that, that opportunity?

Brigette Landy  17:40

That’s what it’s all about. It’s, that’s, that’s why I do it. And, you know, that’s your success. You know, offering someone their dream job and, you know, telling them that amazing news that they’ve been waiting to hear it’s, yeah, I just get such a kick out of it. It’s excitement. It’s just a lot of excitement.

Murray Guest  18:10

Do you get the chance to reconnect with those people down the track and see how they’re going? Is that part of your process?

Brigette Landy  18:16

Definitely. Yeah, we have check in points. So we check in on their first day, at the end of their first week, after their first month, three months, six months. You know, it’s really easy to stay in contact with our candidates these days through the likes of LinkedIn and social media. But yeah, it’s always great to see how they’ve progressed through that career opportunity that you’ve provided, or facilitated for them. And ultimately, hopefully, that person will become a client one day.

Murray Guest  18:48

Yeah, I’m sure there are stories over the years where that’s happened. 

Brigette Landy  18:53

Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah. That’s the ultimate goal. That’s what we strive for a lot of the time. 

Murray Guest  19:02

So obviously, recruitments changed right now, with, you know, physical distancing, and a whole range of other things. What has the process been like in recent weeks versus maybe last year?

Brigette Landy  19:19

It’s not hugely different for us. We implemented virtual interviews or pre recorded video interviews, I think it was about 2014. So we’ve been using them for over five years now. And that’s been a really, value add, like a nice to have for our clients. We pre recorded a video interview that our candidates then complete and we can send that video link to the client, with their resume, for example. So the client gets so much more insight, but now it’s a necessity. So it was really easy for us to adapt to that way of interviewing. But it does make those decisions a little bit harder as well. I think physical presence has a role to play in a recruitment process. So I guess you just need to dig a little bit deeper into those areas that you feel that you might not fully, fully know yet or or trust yet. But yes, it was easy for us to adapt to this new way of doing things.

Murray Guest  20:29

Yeah. Okay, gotcha. And I did hear the other day something about video cover letters, where people are applying for jobs as opposed to the handwritten or the typed up, cover letters. And I mean, I sound old, handwritten cover letter, who’s done one of those lately? Right. But a video cover letter, I guess that’s part of the process as well.

Brigette Landy  20:51

Yeah, definitely. So I came across a LinkedIn profile the other day as well, where a candidate, in her about me section, it was a video, selling herself, basically. So that was really cool. But these videos play such a vital role in the recruitment process now, even leaning towards, you know, customer experience touches and improving the candidate experience as well, as well as benefiting the client. There’s a little 1% we call it that we’re doing now in our virtual interviews, where this is our pre recorded interviews, where we’ll ask the question of the candidate, what is your guilty 3pm afternoon snack?

Murray Guest  21:34

Oh, I like that a lot.

Brigette Landy  21:35

And yeah the candidate might answer Tim Tams, or they might say, chocolate chip cookies, or they might randomly say, a green mango salad from Thailand, which is really hard for us to provide, but once the candidate gets the job, or once we get to meet them, we’ll provide them with their 3pm guilty snack. It just blows them away. It’s a really nice touch for the person. And one of those one percenters as we call it.

Murray Guest  22:06

Yeah. And I think that’s a beautiful question, which has got me thinking, what are some other fantastic recruitment questions that you have asked over the years, that you reckon that have really got people thinking? 

Brigette Landy  22:20

There was one we asked the other day that I really liked. And it was for a role where we needed someone who was going to be really naturally inquisitive. And we asked the question, okay, so say you’ve got a brand new iPhone. What’s the first thing you do? Do you rip it out of the box? And do you get into it and just have a go? Or do you read the instructions? And do you carefully back everything up? That sort of stuff? And the responses you got out of that were really interesting. There’s no right or wrong answer. But it just gives you so much insight into how a person approaches new technology, or problem. How do you approach change? It tells you so much outside of what the actual thing that you’re asking?

Murray Guest  23:06

Yeah, I love that question. Because it’s so relevant. And as you’re saying, it’s rich, you can get so much data out of it. And I love questions. I talk to lots of people about the power of questions and the impact they can have. And I’d love to share one that I heard and this may be one that you use, so please tell me, but the question was the, in the recruitment process to ask, Tell me what you’re like at your absolute worst? And what I heard was this leader would explain at my worst, when I’m when I’m grumpy, when I’m stressed, I might get like this, and so again, it shows vulnerability and openness. Now, I’m asking you, tell me what you’re like at your absolute worst? And I really liked that, because again, it’s building that connection early on.

Brigette Landy  23:53

Do you think you’d always get an honest response? 

Murray Guest  23:56

Well, that’s an insight in itself isn’t it.

Brigette Landy  24:00

It’s like, you know, the weakness question, which we don’t ask directly. But, you know, you don’t want to get, lots of candidates don’t want to, you know, talk about the negatives of themselves. But I like the way that you’ve worded that, I feel like that would get the right sort of response.

Murray Guest  24:23

Yeah, well, I think that the framing up obviously is important in that question, and lots of other questions, as to what’s my intent in asking that question. You know, my intent is to actually get to know you. Do I want to work with you day in day out? Can I trust you? I think that’s so important. Where do you think recruitment’s going in the future?

Brigette Landy  24:44

Look, there’s a lot of talk. I mean, after 16 years, you tend to hear the same stories over and over again, right. And I think for the last 10 years, there’s been a lot of nervousness in the market about automation, about technology, about LinkedIn taking our jobs in terms of being a recruiter, but technology will always play a role and it is going to be so useful moving forward as well. But in recruitment, you always need a human, you need a human side and human perspective, human input. So I could tell you all these fancy new things that we’ve we’ve got lined up and that we’re talking about, but at the end of the day, there’s a really nice balance of technology, automation and human input.

Murray Guest  25:39

Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. I think what you said earlier about the one percenters, and also the cultural fit, and the gut feel, they’re all, you know, extremely important in that recruitment process aren’t they and you can’t take those away.

Brigette Landy  25:58

Yeah, definitely. And I think the things that we’ve been really focusing on lately, and moving forward, as well as the candidate experience. The candidates are our resource really. And we want them to, you know, have the most amazing experience with us, we want them to be our biggest fans. So we’re always trying to find ways to make it better for them, to leave them with this amazing feeling.

Murray Guest  26:28

Yeah, and I totally agree. And I think my addition to what you’re saying, which I unfortunately don’t think a lot of companies do well, so I think recruitments generally done well. It’s even to the point of, let’s have morning tea, and welcome Brige to the team and everyone, let’s welcome. And then there’s inductions, and onboarding, and a lot of that good stuff. I think the area and please correct me if I’m wrong, that we could do a lot better in companies is, how do we let people go? How do we transition them out? How do we, if it hasn’t worked out, how do we say goodbye in a way that’s respectful? And no matter what the reason, I think the way that you have someone leave your company is indicative of your culture. And I think the other end of the process can be improved, just generally, quite a bit.

Brigette Landy  27:19

Yeah, definitely. And I think our outplacement consultants are all about that sort of stuff. It’s all about the the care and nurturing that you give someone as they’re departing an organization. But you know, we’re part of that process to an extent when it comes to telling people that they’re unsuccessful for a job. And leaving those people with an amazing feeling, after they’ve just been told that they don’t have a job that they really wanted. Our goal is to hope that they leave with a really great impression of us.

Murray Guest  27:55

Yeah, and some valuable feedback. I think that’s, I know that you guys do that really well. But I’ve heard and I have experienced in the past myself where you weren’t successful, and you don’t find out or you don’t know why. So that feedbacks really important. So I’d love to ask you about your Strengths. And it’s something you and I have talked about a few times and obviously in the past, you’ve done the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. And you’ve mentioned your adaptability. Just for those listening, Brige’s top five: Adaptability, Positivity, Achiever, Responsibility, and Woo. And I would just love to know from a personal or professional perspective, what’s been the impact of knowing your strengths?

Brigette Landy  28:46

It’s been absolutely awesome. It’s been so good, knowing these strengths and I guess they’re, they’ve always been with me as my natural go-to strengths. But just being so much more aware of them has helped me relate to people better, professionally, and in my personal life as well. I got Zach, my partner, to do his Strengths assessment. And that was really insightful for me. I thought I knew him. But yeah, it’s been really positive. I’ve even seen it rub off on my nephews. So it’s a little story I posted about a little while ago about when I heard my five year old nephew, his name’s Dylan. He was talking to his friend and he said, oh, what’s, what does your dad do? And his friend said, my dad doesn’t have a job. And Dylan goes, Oh, he should talk to my auntie Brige. And I was blown away. I’m like, What? He’s a five year old kid man. Like, how does he know what recruitment is? How does he know that I’m a recruiter. Um, but I think, you know, for me, my positivity Strength is all about contagious enthusiasm. And I think you know, given my enthusiasm for my job and what I do, I think that had just rubbed off on my five year old nephew. You know, he’d obviously taken that on board. And you know, that was really insightful for me. I was blown away by that.

Murray Guest  30:18

Did you give him a couple of business cards to hand out at preschool? Tell me, knowing your strengths, has that helped you? Because I think about all those conversations you have with people, whether that’s within your team, or potential candidates or clients, how knowing your strengths has helped in those conversations.

Brigette Landy  30:45

Yeah, I, it’s been most most helpful. Because it’s just been really insightful for strengths based leadership, I guess. I think talking to clients about what they want to get out of candidates in the recruitment process, and really being able to consult with them on, you know, this candidate is really good at this sort of stuff. So let’s give them more of that sort of stuff to do. Let’s not force them to do the things that they’re not great at, because they’re gonna see themselves, you know, failing or not living up to your standards. And that’s been the same with my team, you know, really offering them opportunities to do more of the stuff that they love, and are good at and want to do, rather than forcing them to do things that they’re not real good at.

Murray Guest  31:40

That’s a fantastic explanation of strengths based leadership. And I know that your whole team has embraced strengths and seeing how that’s helped them. And not just themselves, but then in the way that they interact with each other as well. And that’s, as you know, and we’ve talked about, it’s a journey isn’t it. It’s not like, hey, we’ve done our strengths, tick the box. Always new layers and new experiences with it. 

Brigette Landy  32:07

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It’s been great. 

Murray Guest  32:10

Tell me about you and Zack, though, from a personal level, what did you learn if that’s okay, about you and your partner’s strengths and how they complement or contrast?

Brigette Landy  32:20

Yeah, I think I can’t remember all five. But I know, consistency and discipline, were definitely in there, and harmony. So I think just knowing that, you know, knowing why he does things a certain way and knowing why he’s got to get up at the same time every morning and go through the same routine every day and have the same sorts of meals for dinners and all that sort of thing. You know, me being adaptable, doesn’t line up so much to that consistency piece. But just knowing that that’s where his natural instincts are, helped me understand him so much more.

Murray Guest  33:02

Yeah, I always come back to Don Clifton’s quote about, you know, what’s going to happen when we focus on what’s right with people rather than fixating with what’s wrong with them. And that, that example there about well, Zach likes this way of living, this way of approaching his mornings. It’s different to mine. And that’s okay. Except for when we go on holidays. Yeah, that’s right.

Brigette Landy  33:29

Yeah, that’s right, which is next week. Actually, I’m off to Byron Bay next week. We were meant to be flying to New York today. Following a road trip across the states, but Byron will do.

Murray Guest  33:44

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of people with stories like that. I actually read somewhere something like canceled holidays. The value of those is $6 billion, or something.

Brigette Landy  33:54

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I’m definitely feeling for the tourism industry at the moment. Yeah.

Murray Guest  34:01

Now, just to wrap up our conversation on strengths. Which one do you think out of your top five do you think can hinder you the most? So you love those, and I can hear that in the way you talk about them, but is there one that you think or sometimes it can get in my way a little bit? 

Brigette Landy  34:18

I don’t know. I wouldn’t say they get in my way. But they definitely get in other people’s way. Like the responsibility and the achiever. I feel like those two definitely, some people see it in me and just go Brige’s on a roll again, let’s just, let’s just avoid her. I really am passionate about doing what I say I will do and I live by that. And if I’m going to miss a deadline, that’s a huge deal for me. It’s not really a huge deal for a lot of other people if it’s a small, insignificant deadline, but even those ones are a big deal to me. So I’ve had to learn, and you’ve been a huge part of this process Muz, learn to understand that, you know, while it’s a priority for me, it might not be someone else’s priority. And that because that’s not their strength, their strengths are doing other amazing things. So, you know, just to, for me to accept that. So I don’t feel like they get in my way, they probably do. But I know that the achiever and responsibility, you know, some people probably don’t appreciate.

Murray Guest  35:35

And I have responsibility number five, so I totally High Five you on that, I get that 1,000,000%. And I would say what strengths enables is that understanding, but also a way to articulate it to other people as to why it’s important to you. And then find that middle ground about how do we make that work?

Brigette Landy  35:56

Oh, definitely. And throughout…When did we first do our strengths? Is it a couple of years ago? Yeah, those last couple of years, our team has had so many conversations about why each of us do things a certain way and, and why we don’t. So it’s been massively helpful.

Murray Guest  36:15

Yeah, that’s awesome to hear. And I’m so glad to hear the conversations continuing. Because as we said a bit earlier, it’s not a tick in the box. It’s a journey of depth of understanding ourselves as we go along. I’m still learning about mine. And I did my assessment first time 12 years ago. So definitely still learning and finding out the little ways that they can help me be a better version of myself, that’s for sure. 

Brigette Landy  36:42

And have they changed at all in the last 12 years? 

Murray Guest  36:45

So based on the research, if I was to quote Don Clifton’s research around the point seven retest validity, so 70% of that dominant strengths are going to stay the same throughout your life, because they’re primarily from nature, and those early nurture years. However, the other bit too, that is, if you go through a major life event, they can change. So I would say after my accident at the end of 2018, my empathy was already low, but it’s lower. If it could be. My family’s well aware of that. And I would say my deliberative, though, deliberative has gone up. Deliberative being that deliberate decision making, weighing up the pros and cons, that risk awareness that definitely has increased, I’d say. And, yeah, and I think that’s understandable. I think the empathy piece comes from a bit of, well this happened to me, what you’re going through is not that important. 

Brigette Landy  37:51

I get that, too. That’s understandable as well. I reckon. 

Murray Guest  37:54

I’ve got to be careful about that. I think.

Brigette Landy  37:58

I just wanted to, say, give you a shout out as well, you connected me with a guy by the name of Luke Jamison. He’s a thought leader in CX and EX. And he’s actually presenting at our next CX networking session, which you would know all about, because you presented at the last one.

Murray Guest  38:19

And such a great network. I mean, we had a huge attendance. This is, I think it was the last one before COVID.

Brigette Landy  38:26

It was yeah. The lucky last in person. And we’re hosting them online now. So another, another fun zoom session, but it will be awesome.

Murray Guest  38:35

So yeah, no, Luke is a great guy. I met Luke through the Lego Serious Play certification we did together. He is an awesome guy, a great thinker, energy, sort of thought leader in that CX space and gamification. And it is a shame it’s not in person. But that is where we are. I’m doing a presentation next week to a networking group online. So another one of those. But yeah, great. I’m glad that you guys have connected.

Brigette Landy  39:06

Yeah, definitely. And we’ve already put the word out to our network. And they’re really needing it at the moment. They want something that, you know, can help them through whatever it is that they’re going through, which a lot of their struggles at the moment in that CX world is employee engagement, and finding ways to make things fun for people while they’re not, probably not in the office environment, or not in the contact center environment, a lot of them are at home, and I think it could be awesome for that.

Murray Guest  39:36

Yeah. And that that connection you talked about, and I think my experience in that CX world and of course, nowhere as big as yours, but that passion that people have for people, and then that connection, if they’re all been working at home by themselves, they’re missing that. So I think bringing that back in is is so important right now.

Brigette Landy  40:01

Yeah, totally my, my biggest problem with hosting this session is that I think with our zoom account, I think we’ve only got a maximum of 100 attendees. So I’m probably going to have to upgrade that because there has been such a positive response so far. I’m really looking forward to it.

Murray Guest  40:17

When is it on? 

Brigette Landy  40:18

On the fourth of September. 

Murray Guest  40:20

Awesome. Well, of course, we can also put, we’ll make sure the links in the show notes. We’ll put it out there as well. Yeah. So recruitment is all about people. And having that connection. So this is rapid fire. I only do rapid fire every so often, but rapid fire questions Brige. Okay, so people get to know you even more. Okay, you ready? 

Brigette Landy  40:44

I’m ready. Yep. 

Murray Guest  40:46

What is your 3pm guilty snack? 

Brigette Landy  40:50

Look at the moment it would be apple and peanut butter. 

Murray Guest  40:56

Okay, there’s no judgment here. That’s fine. 

Brigette Landy  41:01

Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. 

Murray Guest  41:03

Okay. All right. You play guitar. What do you like to play on the guitar?

Brigette Landy  41:10

The last thing I played was Nirvana. So I like I like acoustic grunge. 90s stuff.

Murray Guest  41:19

Nice. Okay. So question. Have you ever had a mullet? 

Brigette Landy  41:26

No, no. I’ve had an undercut? 

Murray Guest  41:30

Yeah. Okay, cool. Gotcha. What’s a food you really don’t like?

Brigette Landy  41:37

Peas. I love all vegetables. Except peas. I still will eat them. But I would never choose them.

Murray Guest  41:45

I’m going to talk about my wife here, she is to put the peas in the pockets of her dressing gown at the table cause she hated them so much. And emptied them out in the toilet or somewhere down the track. 

Brigette Landy  41:55

Oh, that’s awesome. I’m all for that. Go Tammy. 

Murray Guest  42:00

Where’s your dream holiday destination?

Brigette Landy  42:04

I love the United States. As I said I was meant to be there right now. Anywhere tropical, hot with some ocean or a pool. I’m usually pretty happy with that.

Murray Guest  42:16

Gotcha. If you were hosting a client in Newcastle, where would you take them?

Brigette Landy  42:23

Ah, this is a great question. So my favorite place to go at the moment is The Falcon, which is up on Pacific Street in Newcastle East, an American vibe bar. You can probably catch a bit of an American theme for me at the moment. So we’d go to The Falcon and then I’d take them along the harbour and the beaches and the Anzac walk. That’s pretty cool, too.

Murray Guest  42:49

It is, it is. And for anyone listening that hasn’t made it to Newcastle. Honestly, it’s the best in Australia, isn’t it Brige? 

Brigette Landy  42:57

Oh, in the world. 

Murray Guest  43:00

Awesome. Well done. That was painless, just some rapid fire questions there just to get to know you even more. So thank you. 

Brigette Landy  43:08

Thanks, Muz. I’m intrigued by that word, painless. To describe that. 

Murray Guest  43:14

Some people just don’t like those questions. But you know, related number one, I’m happy to ask anything. So that was good. So thank you, again, so much for this conversation, talking about recruitment, talking about your passion for what you do. I love what you do. I love the work of the team and Forsythes Recruitment and HR. So thank you. Your energy comes across fantastically. And speaking of energy, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Brigette Landy  43:47

I had to think about this. But I came back to what I had immediately thought when you asked me that question. And I feel like it’s doing the things that give you energy. So doing the things that really energize you. So whether it’s a certain task at work, or whether it’s doing the things that give you energy at home, taking the dog to the park, whatever it is, it’s the stuff that gives you energy.

Murray Guest  44:16

I would love to add too, if I may, I can imagine that phone call that you make to clients or to candidates when they get the job that they’ve been dreaming of, that must give you this energy that inspires you just go, right what’s next. Let’s keep going. 

Brigette Landy  44:34

Totally yeah, you’re spot on with that. 

Murray Guest  44:37

Thanks again so much. I’ve loved catching up chatting to you. And can I just ask if anyone wants to reach out to you, want to know more about the work you do and connect online, where’s the best place to do that?

Brigette Landy  44:49

Probably LinkedIn. I’m always on LinkedIn. So linkedin.com/blandy.

Murray Guest  44:57

Great. Yes. And you post some fantastic stuff on LinkedIn. I think it’s a really valuable what you’ve been putting on there. So yep, please keep doing that.

Brigette Landy  45:06

Yeah, that’d be great. I’ve been loving the posting and the engagement. And we started doing it during COVID. Actually, I started getting a bit more active and regular with my LinkedIn. And yeah, the engagements been awesome.

Murray Guest  45:20

Great. So one last question, though. I’ve just thought of this. I was gonna ask earlier, it’s come back around into my conscious. If someone is looking for a job right now, what would be your tip for them to take action on? 

Brigette Landy  45:38

Just one tip, or? There’s a whole heap of tips. 

Murray Guest  45:40

Give us hundreds. Well, just give us a couple.

Brigette Landy  45:43

Well, they need to get on to LinkedIn, and follow my colleagues because they’re always passing advice about how to look for a job. And you need to get comfortable with video. Definitely. And, and if you can access some free online courses about or not even free, if you happen to pay for it even better, but about personal branding, as a candidate, or a job seeker, you are selling yourself, you need to get really comfortable with that. You need to get good at that.

Murray Guest  46:14

Wow. And I’m so glad I asked that question because there’s some really good tips there so thank you. Brige. This has been awesome. I hope all goes well over the coming weeks. I’ll make sure I share the upcoming cx networking event in the shownotes and have a great holiday next week. Keep well and healthy. Look forward to a coffee maybe sometime in the future. 

Brigette Landy  46:37

Yeah, maybe in 2022. Thanks. It’s been great.

Episode 33 – Leah Keogh | Strengths-based Coach & Facilitator

Leah Keogh is a Strengths-based coach based out of Seattle, Washington state. She works with teams and large groups on assessing and bringing out strengths to achieve peak performance in both individuals and organizations.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  

Hi, Leah, how are you? Great to be connecting with you today.

Leah Keogh  

Hi, Murray. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Murray Guest  

It’s awesome to be chatting with you. I’ve loved our our chats over the past few years and talking about the work that we both do with organizations. How’s your week been so far?

Leah Keogh  

My week has been good. It has been rather busy, but it’s it’s good. I’m plugging away.

Murray Guest  

And just so people know, your a strengths based coach and facilitator, based out of as I understand Washington state, is that correct?

Leah Keogh  

That’s correct. Seattle, Washington.

Murray Guest  

Tt’s important we get those right, isn’t it? There’s a big difference between Washington DC and Washington State, isn’t it?

Leah Keogh  

Yes, yes. There’s a big difference.

Murray Guest  

Is there some level of competition? Or like, is it really important for those people living over in Washington State that we’re known not to be from DC?

Leah Keogh  

Well, they’re just very different places. The Pacific Northwest in general is very different from the East Coast. But Washington DC is what capital is, and you have all that government things happening. And yeah, it’s just very different from the west coast. So people out of the country may not realize that there’s a difference between Washington State and DC.

Murray Guest  

So I’ve been to Washington, DC, but I haven’t been to Washington State, tell me what is it like?

Leah Keogh  

Well, first of all, it’s beautiful. I love the Pacific Northwest. Lots of trees. Actually, you’re a fan of New Zealand. And Washington reminds me a lot of New Zealand and Queenstown. It’s beautiful. We have the trees and the water in the mountains and the coast. And the summers are just stunning here. I really don’t know if there’s a prettier place in the in the summer.

Murray Guest  

So you’re selling it to me. And I assume there’s mountain bike riding there as well?

Leah Keogh  

Of course, and we’re very close to to Whistler and BC, which is very well known for its mountain biking.

Murray Guest  

Of course it is. Yeah. And as so can I just check how do you introduce yourself to organizations? Are you a Strengths coach? Are you a facilitator? How do you describe that and the work that you do?

Leah Keogh  

Sure, well, it’s a little bit of both. So I am a strengths-based coach certified through Gallup, and then also through strength strategy. And so what I do is I, I work a lot with teams and groups, so I can help facilitate the small teams or larger groups, it just really depends on what the organization, and that particular manager is wanting to do. So I go in, and I help I assess the situation, work on strengths, bringing that in, work with the manager to help improve things.

Murray Guest  

And how did you get into strengths in the first place? And this whole idea of focusing on what’s right? 

Leah Keogh  

Yes I love this question. So in my previous life, I had a business and in that business, when I first started out what I did was I hired an executive coach, to help me with this, I’m always looking for improvement, right? How do we get to the next level? How do we improve? So I hired her. And the first thing she had me do was take the assessment. And I took it. And I loved it, just the way that my brain is wired, it made sense. I’m high in positivity, high connectedness. So I was able to connect those dots. So she came in, and she was from Colorado, and she did workshops with the team. She helped me manage, she helped with onboarding. And I started managing through a strengths based perspective. And I loved it so much that I started having everyone around me take the assessment. So if you know me, you’ve taken it. And then I started watching and I started watching Strengths that play in the people that I that I know. And then I have friends that have small businesses as well. So I started helping them. And I loved it so much that I decided to become a coach. And I discovered that this truly is my passion. And because I have a bit of that business background, I’m able and I’ve worked with teams, my own team in that business, I’m able to bring that forward and help other teams as well.

Murray Guest  

Did you have an aha moment when you saw your strengths the first time and you went, ah, you know, this is me or I get this or did you have one of those moments early on?

Leah Keogh  

Well, I think that the one strength that surprised me was the positivity. I didn’t realize that that was a strength. I remembered that when standing out, and now it’s been several years, it’s probably been about 13 years. But I remember that one. And then also connectedness too, it’s taken me a little bit of time, it took me some time to truly own that strength and understand what that strength is. And it really was in my training in the Gallup training that, that I fully got it. Right. That’s, that’s where the shift really happened for me.

Murray Guest  

So I’ve seen connectedness show up as a few different ways for people, one being that everything’s connected for a reason. And that there’s, there’s a belief in in the way that things happen in the universe, and that connectedness. And I’ve also seen it in a also a practical sense in organizations where leaders can see how things are all connected within the organization, and they flow on from each other. And if I make a decision here how it impacts something down the track, or in another team or a project. What’s your experience with connectedness with the people you’ve worked with or yourself?

Leah Keogh  

Sure, so connectedness for me, because of my empathy in there, too, it has, it has an emotional component to to it, along with the futuristic, so I can see the big picture of the team, I can see the dynamics that are that are tying in I can see emotionally what’s happening with people. And I can fit that puzzle together. And then strengths gives me the tool to name it and help the manager or the the employee, figure out what is happening. So it is that big picture. I still believe that everything just happened for a reason. But I, I see it more in that big picture of understanding kind of the I want to say emotional development of the team and what’s happening and how do we get people on track, from that point.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha. And with the teams you’re working with, you mentioned before that a lot of leaders, what’s the work that you absolutely love doing?

Leah Keogh  

So my favorite, if I had to pick would be small teams, I love being in a room where there’s four to 10 people, that is my absolute favorite.

Murray Guest  

And what is it in those moments that you’ve experienced that just you love so much?

Leah Keogh  

I think that it’s because it’s a smaller group. And of course, I facilitate large groups as well too. And that, that, that that’s fun as well and rewarding. But the small group gives me the opportunity, I can be in there and I can connect with each person because it’s a bit of a smaller group, right? So I have the ability with my strengths to understand what Tommy is thinking, what Sally is, is doing and thinking and what Ryan may be processing, and then facilitating through questions and conversation to get them connected. So my gift really is in getting that group connected. How do we get them connected on the same page, not only emotionally, but with their goals and where they’re moving forward?

Murray Guest  

So looking back on 2019, what are some of the things that you’ve been seeing with the clients you’ve been working with? And some of those teams? What are some of the common sort of areas that you’ve noticed, they need to focus on?

Leah Keogh  

Communication, communication is key. And then a lot of silos, people, because people are global, and they’re so busy, right? There’s not enough time, there’s not enough resources and and people are so task driven, especially in the corporate world, that they need time to effectively communicate. And that is where these group sessions can come in handy, because it gives them the opportunity to take that time to effectively communicate.

Murray Guest  

Is there a team that you could give us a bit of an example of that you’ve worked with where there was some of that poor communication or they weren’t quite collaborating to the full potential they had and how that went and where you explored with them?

Leah Keogh  

Yeah, so yeah, there is one team in particular and they have a good foundation on strengths. I’ve worked with them a bit. But the team has drastically changed and moved from six people to 85 and I and there’s leaders there, and they’re so busy. And they just needed time to connect. And, you know, they’re they’re struggling keeping up in all of the shifts that organization shifts in that. So, yeah, I spent time with them. And really, it’s about asking questions. So oftentimes, I’ll give them some pre work to answer questions so that they have time to reflect. And then they give that information to me. And it gives me time to read what’s happening, and then we get in a room. And and they answer those questions and the dialogue starts. And oftentimes, I’d like to just have it be a bit organic, where that conversation goes to, because that’s where the juice happens, right? That’s when you really just have to listen in and, and see what comes up and let it go from there.

Murray Guest  

Letting it go is so important in that process. I totally agree. How do you handle those people that are struggling with letting go of what’s happened in the past, and maybe some of those past interactions, or frustrations they’ve got, which are getting in the way of helping them build the team and move forward?

Leah Keogh  

Sure. And oftentimes, what I see is that it’s frustration with other people. And so, for example, the one team that I was referencing, there, that certainly was happening on the team. However, when when I asked the certain questions or it comes out, they bring out what’s bothering them, I then show what the other person is needing. So this person has these certain strengths, which is why they’re showing up this way. And then that, that, in a way creates the understanding from the person that’s frustrated, oh, they’re responding to you this way. Because this is how they’re wired. This is how they respond to things. And so it creates the space for them to understand one another. And it’s almost as if, like, once that light bulb goes off, and people start to understand, Oh, you’re, you’re different than me. But it doesn’t mean you’re wrong. And it doesn’t mean it’s my preconceived notion that you’re doing it this way. Because of XYZ. You’re doing it because this is how you’re wired. Right?

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I love how strengths and that understanding of self and others, it does give you that insight as to why someone approaches the situation or why they might have reacted in the past or something or the way they did, and then helps them as you said, not make it wrong, but certainly make it a way which is different. And that differences. Okay, and even better. That difference is good.

Leah Keogh  

Exactly.

Murray Guest  

And what’s a question. you mentioned questions a few times. And I love questions. I think questions are one of the most powerful thing tools we have, not just from a facilitator or leadership, but just you know, as a tool in our everyday life, what’s some questions you love to ask teams?

Leah Keogh  

Well, I’m high in input. So I love questions, too. And I tend to ask a lot of questions. So it can be anything from How do you feel you’re showing up as a manager? Where are you successful? What areas are? What areas can be running smoother? Just various questions like that. And really, sometimes it’s just starting with a couple of questions like that. And then it goes from there. Yeah, I mean, the questions are endless, really? What can improve? You know, what, what are you good at? How do you think your team perceives you? Where do you want to go? What are your goals? How do you get there?

Murray Guest  

Let’s say we’ve got a team coming together and they’ve answered those questions in pre work and they come into the room. What do you know, is so important in creating that safe space for people to share and to be open and honest?

Leah Keogh  

Well, I think that’s my job as the facilitator. Personally, I think that that’s my job to if you want to say hold the space, there may be other terminology for it. But it’s my job to bring that forward and to create that that space. I actually had one of my managers tell me I’m a little bit nervous to fill out this pre work because I feel that that I’m being extremely vulnerable. And I said, don’t worry, I have your back, it’ll be okay. So for me, it’s about creating that, that you can say safe space, but it’s creating that space, so that people can open up and I don’t allow for any inner judgement, that type of thing. And if I’m being a good facilitator, that doesn’t happen.

Murray Guest  

I, I love that analogy of, of what we’re even, sorry, that description of creating a safe space, because that is so important. And I feel like in generally, unfortunately, in organizations right now, there isn’t that enough of those safe spaces for people to speak up and to say, what’s on their mind in a way they can without judgment, and in a positive way. How do you think leaders take that safe space that as facilitators we create, and then instill that in their day to day work?

Leah Keogh  

Well, I think that everyone is so different, right? So some people, for example, may just behind executing, and it’s about we just want to get this job done. And how do we get there. So having the opportunity, for example, if I come in, and I facilitate, it gives that it gives everyone that that chance in that moment to almost take a deep breath and say, Okay, let’s connect, let’s look at things. How does this work? How do we put this together and move forward? And then hopefully, they learn from that, and they, they gain more insight from their fellow colleagues or from their managers, and then they can take that moving forward? Which is also why I really promote using a Strengths dialogue with these teams. Because if I tell you, Okay, this is my ideation here, Murray. So just let me throw out a few ideas, please. Well, I’m Yeah, I’m just giving an example of what I may say to, to someone and, and offering ideas that way, you aren’t put off by all of my ideas. Right? Because I’m, I’m, I’m saying ahead of time. So I think that creates some of that safe space as well, too. Yeah. But people just especially in the corporate world, they’re just going going going so they take they they need a moment to take a deep breath.

Murray Guest  

Well, I think that’s that that moment and creating moments and the power of the pause, that leaders can take away from those facilitated workshops and say, How can I create that space for the pause? And the conversation that needs to still happen?

Leah Keogh  

Yes, and it may not come as easy to them, right? Because they’re used to being so driven. But hopefully, hopefully, they take something from the sessions or they stop and they have the conversations and they see the benefit of it. Right? They need to see the benefit of it, in order to make it happen moving forward.

Murray Guest  

Oh, yeah, I think that’s a really good point and see and feel that benefit? And then and then we’ll experience it to then say, okay, how do I recreate this? And how do I do that?

Leah Keogh  

Right, and it may not come as natural to them. Right. So that’s also where a coach can come in and, and help give ideas and different opportunities for that to happen.

Murray Guest  

What about the blind spots? And how they explored in teams, those blind spots of strengths?

Leah Keogh  

Yeah, yeah, they blind spots, it’s, that’s why I like the small group facilitation, because you can bring those blind spots up or what I like to show in a team see, this is where this person excels. And this, this may be a blind spot for you, but this is where they come in, and they can help so that that works really well too and can be effective because it is important to look at our blind spots, but more so to look at, Who do I need to need on my team to help me excel? Right? Because I know that for me, you know, I work really well with like Maximizers and Arrangers. I do really well with that. So is it a blind spot for me? It may be could be but but I know that if I have that on my team, I’m even that much more successful.

Murray Guest  

Well, I can imagine the foundation of making each other right. Understanding each other creates then that space for Okay, so how do we actually now not just understand each other but leverage each other’s strengths and collaborate more for the greater success?

Leah Keogh  

Yeah, exactly because it’s okay that I may not excel at certain areas. And that’s probably one of the greatest learnings that I’ve had through strengths is that it’s actually okay that I don’t excel in this area. That’s all right, because I excel over here. And that’s what I need to be focusing on. And to go back to what you were seeing earlier to is the facilitator. That’s part of the space that I’m holding to. So I’m not making anyone wrong, right? I’m, I’m showing us all how, how and where we excel. And let’s focus on that.

Murray Guest  

I’ve experienced quite a bit with teams and with leaders where they have gained a new sense of self confidence that’s come with that awareness of their strengths. Have you seen that show up? Sometimes in groups too?

Leah Keogh  

Oh, absolutely. It doesn’t matter if you’re a leader, or you’re a stay at home mom, it really doesn’t matter. That’s the power of strengths. But yes, I see it all the time with my teams and in our corporate world, and brilliant people who, who are struggling in thinking that they’re not good enough, because they’re not excelling, how they think they should be, right. But I give them this tool, and they have the opportunity to really shine.

Murray Guest  

Oh, totally great. And that, that sense of, oh, this is me. And and this is what’s great about me. And you know what I this other thing over here that I thought I was trying to do. And I thought it was part of who I had to be based on some feedback that that person’s got in the past. You know what, I actually don’t need to focus on there so much need to be aware of it. But I don’t need to focus there.

Leah Keogh  

Yes, absolutely. We do need to be aware of it. Right. You can’t ignore it. We just go about things differently. So let’s figure out what that is.

Murray Guest  

What do you think’s going on for leaders at the moment and taking us into the future? And some of the focus areas?

Leah Keogh  

As far as…

Murray Guest  

So, yeah, leaders need to be based on what you’re seeing in teams and what you’re hearing with people you talk to what do you think some of the areas that leaders should be really focusing on these days?

Leah Keogh  

Sure. Well, I think it comes down to the people personally, right. Yeah. I mean, you’re you’re as strong as, as your people. And there’s such a drive, especially here in the US. But I imagine elsewhere, too, you know, business is all about the bottom line, whatever the numbers, how do we get there? How do we, how do we reach those numbers? And so I think oftentimes, businesses and corporations are missing that people aspect that wait a minute, we need this well functioning team. So how do we bring bring that aspect in and focus on our people focus where we excel and get everyone on the same page, and firing off on all cylinders?

Murray Guest  

And, yeah, and do you think that there’s a bit of a trend at the moment you think there is getting more of that focus back on the people that had may have been lost with focus on the numbers as opposed to the people that they’re leading? Do you think you’re seeing some of that?

Leah Keogh  

Yeah, I think that, you know, it’s, it’s fascinating, because human nature is just interesting. I just think that there’s such a drive and an end. Yeah, I do think that people are realizing the importance of it. I just think that that balance is, is challenging, because there are so many demands, right? There’s demands just not only with the corporation itself, but then you take the individual, you’ve got home, that person, there’s just so many different factors in there. But yeah, I think that companies are realizing the importance of their people. Globally, they are.

Murray Guest  

Well, I hope so as well. I know. I’d like maybe the people we work with the people that want to focus on their people. They’re the companies that we work with. They’re those organizations. But certainly from the research that from Gallup and other organizations, certainly there’s showing the need to get back to the people that were leading the, the expectations are clear that that people are being treated like people, yes, we need to achieve the results in the organization, but it’s the people that are going to deliver on that and so how do we do that really connect with them? And as you said earlier, so importantly, create a safe space for them to speak up and share.

Leah Keogh  

Absolutely. Yeah, cause people want to be heard they want to be valued. Strengths can do that.

Murray Guest  

Oh, yeah, I totally agree. And strengths as you’re you’ve hinted on a couple of times, it’s such a powerful tool to do that. Is there any other frameworks or approaches that you think are really important, besides strengths, with the leaders you work with, that you’ve you’ve also found has been really helpful?

Leah Keogh  

Well, I use strengths as the tool, right? So it’s just I guess, for me, it’s a lot, it’s using my strengths, that intuitive aspect, right? With the connectedness and that, and it’s figuring out, okay, what does this team need here, and then it’s starting the dialogue and starting the conversation, but I use strengths as my main tool, because I have found it so powerful, it gives me the language, so to speak to us. You know, but there’s different ways that that you can use the strengths and different things that you can do. But that is the tool that I like.

Murray Guest  

That intuition that you just mentioned, I’m exploring that more and more as I get older, and the clients I work with, and what I’m experiencing in my own business, and tapping into that intuition on the big believer in the power of their, of our gut. And that, that intuition that comes to us and that feeling and how important it is to tap into that and listen to that. And I think it’s an interesting thing to explore with leaders around, I think, and I’m going to use this word, intuitively, they know it, that there’s something sometimes they feel but they sometimes they’ll push it aside. But I think just as the animals we are as humans, that’s there. And the more we actually also tap into that with also what we’re seeing. It’s really powerful, and can really help people not just connect, but also the way they lead and the way they communicate as well.

Leah Keogh  

I agree 100%. And I think that if you have a successful leader, there probably tapped into their intuition as well, too. But yeah, intuition is an important aspect. And you can see the intuition showing up through the different strengths, right, of how it speaks to people. But yeah, that that is an important aspect. And I think sometimes that’s where we need to take that pause in that moment, and create that space so that people can stop and listen. And trust that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and I had a great conversation with a group of leaders was about 12 months ago, and we’re having this conversation about how they base their decision making. And they had that realization, from their strengths team grid, that they were very much about the numbers, they’re very much about the analytical and the discipline, focus on that. And one of the leaders asked this question, and he was had some slightly different strengths to the majority in the team. So you could see them coming out. And he asked the question, he said, Oh, but how do we actually ask questions? Or how do we base some of our decisions about what we’re feeling? And just putting that question out there just created this great space where I started to explore that and actually started to realize sometimes they’re relying so much on the numbers, it was causing them some delay in some paralysis in their decision making. So I thought that was courageous. But also, you know, honestly, awesome that this latest doesn’t say, Okay, how do we start to make some decisions also in this business, about what we’re feeling?

Leah Keogh  

It’s brilliant. Yeah. And you created that space for them to have that dialogue. Asking questions is great.

Murray Guest  

And I thought, yeah, totally. I think that’s a good part of I like what you said earlier, I just want to skip that about the well rounded leader or the successful leader that’s also tapping into intuition. I think you mentioned that that’s generally what we would find. So it’s not just a leader that’s ignoring that.

Leah Keogh  

It’s not just a leader what, could you repeat that?

Murray Guest  

That’s ignoring that intuition that’s really tapping into that and thinking about that.

Leah Keogh  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

So what’s coming up for you in the near future? What are some of the things you’re working on?

Leah Keogh  

Well, I have more teams that I’m working with and just I love that aspect so much. It’s exciting to me when I get to meet a new team and I have us my connectedness and figure that team out is just so much fun. So yeah, presenting workshops, doing the one on one coaching. All that fun stuff that I love.

Murray Guest  

Oh, fantastic. So when with your coaching, is that part of the way that you approach working with teams? Where you might work with some leaders? And that coaching is part of that also? Or is that a separate piece?

Leah Keogh  

Well, that’s how I prefer to do it. Sometimes it depends with the team, right. But I think having that one on one coaching, along with the group sessions is where that success can happen, because it’s easy to present the strengths, for example, in a workshop, but that one on one is where you can really dive in deeper with the individuals, with the leaders. And that’s where I noticed the most success. It’s when it’s done that way.

Murray Guest  

I totally agree. And similar to the way I work also, with that partnering up in that development and support with a leader and a team. Beyond the workshop with that coaching is so powerful, very powerful. Yeah. So Leah, it’s been so great, exploring your strengths and the work that you do and the impact you make in people’s lives. So thank you so much. I just want to also ask a couple of last questions. One is the question I asked on every podcast and I just want to see what your perspective is. What is your definition of inspired energy?

Leah Keogh  

Yes, inspired energy. Listen, I have positivity. So I love that. So inspired energy. I think it’s about being authentic to who we are. And when that happens, inspired energies that result? Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah, I really think it’s about being who we are. And then hopefully putting ourselves in situations and opportunities where we can fully express that. That’s, that’s a key as well, too. But if I’m fully authentic, and I am being me, and I am showing up. That is what gives me the inspired energy.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha. Love it. Absolutely. Love it. Thank you.

Leah Keogh  

Thank you.

Murray Guest  

And if people want to find you, where’s the best place to find you online and connect with you?

Leah Keogh  

Sure, they can find me on LinkedIn and also LKstrengths.com.

Murray Guest  

Thanks again, so much. It’s been so good talking to you. I love your passion for strengths. I love the work that you do. I love how much you’ve really claimed those dominant strengths of yours of connectedness and empathy, and and positivity, of course, and how they help you be you and do the work that you do, and the difference you make with teams and leaders. So thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience today. It’s been wonderful.

Leah Keogh  

Murray, thank you so much. It was always a pleasure talking with you. And I appreciate the work that you’re doing too. Thank you for having me.

Murray Guest  

Thank you. All right, and anyone listening, if you’ve got anything out of this and you want to share online, please do so. And tag Leah and tag myself with the hashtag inspired energy and get that out there and we’d love to see what you got out of this episode of the podcast. Ok everyone, talk to you soon. Bye.