Episode 81 – Bek Smith | Mental Fitness Expert

In this episode I chat with Bek Smith, founder of Smith and Wellness, speaker and subject matter expert in health and wellbeing. Bek has a background in psychology, spent ten years working as a physiotherapist, is a group fitness instructor of 17 years and was sponsored by Reebok for 5 years in her role as a dance program presenter. She was also the inaugural Lead Trainer for the Wellbeing and Resilience Centre at the South Australian Health and Medical Research Institute, and in 2019 did a TEDx talk on the importance of mental fitness.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:02

Bek, welcome to the podcast on a hot summer’s day. No, it’s still spring. Hot spring day in 2020. Summer starts in December, right?

Bek Smith  00:13

Indeed, yes

Murray Guest  00:15

It feels like summer, doesn’t it?

Bek Smith  00:16

It very much does. And I’m really appreciative on this warm day to be sharing some warmth with you. Oh, that’s

Murray Guest  00:22

the nicest thing to say to start a chat. Thank you. I’m looking forward to diving deep into mental wellbeing, mental resilience, mental fitness. How’s your week been? Because you have interesting things in Adelaide with lockdowns and non lock downs and all that

Bek Smith  00:44

Oh my gosh, I would say that my week has been positive. And it has given me cause to be optimistic. And it has also been really fluctuating. So yes, we went into lockdown for what was meant to be six days. And then we were told, after three days now it’s okay, we’re going back to easing restrictions again. And, you know, all the complications that came with that for many businesses, didn’t impact me directly. But I did notice that, interestingly, going into lockdown was not as difficult for me as coming out of it again, when they said we’re easing restrictions. I was like, I’m not ready. I was so mentally prepared to be in my house for the next three days. What do you mean, I have to go back to the world?

Murray Guest  01:29

I just bought all this pasta and toilet paper. What’s going on?

Bek Smith  01:32

What am I gonna do with everything in the fridge?

Murray Guest  01:38

Yeah. Do you analyze or assess yourself based on what you know, as that stuff happens?

Bek Smith  01:47

Very much so. And sometimes I feel like I’m over-analytical of myself, because of the nature of the work that I do. And, but I think that preceded the work that I do as well, I was always quite self reflective. And as a child, I wasn’t very social. So I spent a lot of time on my own. And I think that lends itself toward me being quite self reflective, and overly analytical. And that actually made me interested in studying psychology. So then when I go to university, you know, one of the fields and one of the parts that I took was to study psychology so I could get more of an understanding about myself. And I guess that internal reflecting hasn’t really stopped.

Murray Guest  02:31

Got you. And as you were going through that reflective process of coming out of lockdown, did you get to any breakthrough moment of what was going on as to how you’re feeling? Yeah,

Bek Smith  02:43

great question. I think it was, for me, the best insight was that I had a societally permitted few days to just stop and to stop the activity. And then when that got taken away, again, it felt like the permission to stop was removed. And so I sat with that and went ha, actually, the only permission that I need is my own permission to stop and to relax. And so the insight for me has been in, oh, maybe I do need to put the brakes on a little bit more than I have been recently and give myself that permission to take more time out without being enforced upon me.

Murray Guest  03:29

Yeah, it’s like, sometimes we need that permission to do something. But let’s give ourselves our own permission. And I know one thing we’re going to talk about is self care. And something I’ve learned over the years, I can’t remember who said it first, but self care isn’t selfish. Yeah. But like when you’ve said, okay, you need to stop, we’re going to stop for six days. This is what the government saying, Oh, okay. So I’m going to look after myself. I’m going to slow down. But how do we bring that into our day to day approach and behaviors?

Bek Smith  04:00

Yeah, absolutely. And there’s so much programming that I know that I have to stay productive and to stay busy. And that’s something that I’ve been consciously aware of for about 10 years before that the programming was there. And I was just kind of working to it without being aware of it. But the last 10 years, I’ve been making more of an effort to drop the attachment to being busy. And when I read some of Brene Brown’s work around busyness as a status symbol, and productivity as self worth, really hit me in the field, I was like, Oh my god, she can see inside my soul. Ever since reading that work, I have been more and more conscious of giving myself those permissions to slow down. However, my default is still to go back to busy and productive and I’m just continuing to work with that default pattern and trying to bring In a little bit more self compassion. And as you said, a little bit more self care over time.

Murray Guest  05:05

I was talking to my wife the other day, and I said, I’ve got a few emails to send. She goes, do you know how often you say that? Oh, okay. Let me just check in on that. Yeah, there’s this status of I’ve got a few emails to send. I thought, okay, there’s, there’s a pattern there that I’ve got myself into.

Bek Smith  05:23

And how useful is it to have other people, they’re reflecting back to you and showing that mirror too?

Murray Guest  05:29

I said, I can’t hear you. I’ve got to send these emails. No.

Bek Smith  05:35

I can’t possibly I’ve got important things to do. Because I’m important, and I need to go send important emails. Yeah,

Murray Guest  05:40

yeah. As I bash on the keyboard, yeah. I’m getting better at asking myself the question, is this the most valuable use of my time right now? Can this be sent tomorrow? And again, it’s rewiring my brain after using corporate roles. And but I’m still, as a human, I’m getting better at it. But I slip up and also back into the I need to be busy and serving and doing stuff.

Bek Smith  06:07

Yeah. It’s very interesting, though. I talk a lot about balance and trying to find the balance between different things, because it’s no use shutting off from everything. And it’s no use being completely engaged in everything all the time, you know, you need to have that right balance. So I love that question that you’ve just asked about, ‘is this the most valuable use of my time right now?’ Because sometimes, the best thing that you can do for your self care is to unplug and switch off. But sometimes the best thing you can do for your self care is to plug in and do those things, because they’re going to give you a sense of fulfillment. And so it’s just about what’s the most valuable thing right now? It’s a great reflection question.

Murray Guest  06:48

Yeah. And I had four chunks of work I need to get done this week. Each one was only about 20 minutes. And because I didn’t do them early on the week, I could feel the emotional baggage building on those because I kept on putting them off. And then when I stopped to get one done, I was like, Okay, I feel a bit better. Now I can do the next one. Yeah, that’s such a great insight that you’ve brought to the conversation around self care. Sometimes we just need to, to get it done. Other times, we need to tune out but actually being aware of where we’re investing our time.

Bek Smith  07:20

Yeah, definitely self care might be doing that piece of work for 20 minutes, not stepping out to have a massage, right?

Murray Guest  07:28

Yes, yes. Okay. So help me understand this mesh, this integration of psychology, and being a physiotherapist, how did you get to that place? And, why that?

Bek Smith  07:43

Yeah, sure. So to explain that, we’ll take a little bit of a journey back to my teenage years, and I was trying to make that decision about what to study at university. And because I had that self reflective nature, paired with some experiences of mental illness from a young person, I was really attracted to psychology because I wanted to understand more about myself. And in studying psychology, I actually decided that I was not in an emotional place to be able to help other people. So I got three years into my study pathway. And when I can’t go forward with clinical psychology, I’m just not in the most, you know, robust place for myself. So I actually diverted to a research career. And I left after three years of study after finishing my bachelor’s degree, and I went into research psychology. And that was wonderful because I got to study communication, and I got to work in a setting where I learned a lot. However, then I got really bored of sitting at a desk. And research psychology is a lot of number crunching, and a lot of report writing, and actually not a lot of interacting with people. So that year for me was really valuable in learning new things. And one of the things that I learned was that I would like to be more people oriented than that. So I decided to go back to university and study physiotherapy instead, and found out that there was a graduate entry pathway that I could take where I wouldn’t have to start the whole four year physiotherapy degree from scratch, but I could actually take some of what I’d studied in my undergraduate bachelor’s degree and apply that so I could finish the masters of physiotherapy in two years. And so then I branched off into clinical work and never intended to go into private practice. I always wanted to be in a hospital setting because I felt that that’s where I could make most difference. But I landed in this private practice job and loved it, loved it, and was there for 10 years. And funnily enough, one of the things that kept coming up in my physical therapy work treating my clients was all of their emotional baggage. It’s amazing what happens when as a therapist, you lay your hands on somebody, there is a barrier that comes down. And I don’t know how many patients of mine said to me, oh my god, I haven’t even told my psychologist this, but bla bla bla bla bla. And then I was like, I’m doing this counseling work that I never intended to. And I actually didn’t feel like I was fully qualified to do it, either. So, in 2016, I circled back to psychology again, and studied deployment of positive psychology and well being. And that lit me up like you wouldn’t believe. Because all of a sudden, I had found this field of positive psychology, which is about building on our strengths, which I know you do a lot of work in. And looking at how we can live our best lives, not just how can we recover from difficulties and trauma, but how can we actually thrive and flourish in our lives. And I feel like that was the missing piece that I had actually been looking for when I had been studying at an undergraduate level. So since then, my intention was to take that Diploma of positive psychology and wellbeing and integrate it into my physiotherapy practice. But then an opportunity came up to work as a lead trainer in a wellbeing organization. And I unexpectedly ended up taking this leap into public speaking, education and training and so long physiotherapy. So there was a little period of integration there of the psychology with the physiotherapy. But now it’s diversified into just a completely new career path for me.

Murray Guest  11:47

Yeah, and I can relate from similar journey around discovering strengths and the strengths based approach and impact that’s made on me and the people I work with, and the link between strengths and positive psychology. So I hear you, and I, high five, you.  I’m wondering though, when you reflect back on the 10 years of physiotherapy, what were some of the things that you now leverage and reflect on that’s really helped you and what you do now,

Bek Smith  12:22

I think a lot of the questioning, you know, the lines of inquiry with my patients, and the non judgmental approach that I took to my clinical practice. So whereas some physiotherapists that I worked alongside, would freak out a little bit, if there was a patient with complex conditions, you know, if they were presenting with a chronic pain presentation that was wrapped up in mental illness, or there were a lot of what we call yellow flags, where there were social behavioral issues that were compounding their pain presentation, those visitors would often hand ball the patient to me, “Bek’s really good with these kind of complex presentations” when there’s a lot of emotional baggage. And I would just always take a very open line of inquiry for those people, you know, and I would probably ask them questions that other physiotherapists weren’t brave enough to ask explicitly around, you know, their emotional state or their mental state. And I wouldn’t offer solutions, but I would just ask questions and open up conversations. And then in many instances, I was able to steer them towards seeing a counselor or a psychologist that they hadn’t been willing to before. So I think it’s that line of inquiry in the openness that I use that I still leverage from now.

Murray Guest  13:44

Yeah, gotcha. And what I’m also hearing there is knowing where your lane is, and when you refer and don’t refer?

Bek Smith  13:53

Yes, absolutely. And in some instances, people come in, and their pain presentation is compounded by loneliness. And, you know, in those instances where people have got very limited social connections, I try to steer them toward engaging in Pilates classes. And we had a thriving Pilates community in our clinic where because all these people would come together, and they’d make friends and they do their Pilates class, then go and catch up for coffee afterwards. So sometimes just staring in that direction was really useful. And more recently, I’ve come across the terminology around social prescribing, which I read about in some of Johann Hari’s work, they’re starting to do that more in Europe and in the UK, where doctors will socially prescribe community groups to people. Because the loneliness factor is so high, and such a contributor to depression for many people.

Murray Guest  14:46

And I was gonna just jump in and say and 2020 has highlighted that even more.

Bek Smith  14:53

Absolutely. And at the positive side of that is that it’s brought it more to the forefront of our attention, and I think that we now see the importance of social connection in a renewed way. So I’m hopeful that we can start to leverage from that understanding. 

Murray Guest  15:09

I’m wondering also just around when you were practicing and with what you do now, how are you aware and what tips you could possibly share around creating an environment, an environment where people open up, where you create that level of trust, and Brene Brown obviously talks about that pair of trust and vulnerability. But what do you know, really creates an environment where someone is going to open up to you when you ask those questions.

Bek Smith  15:34

I think it’s a combination of different things. One of them is body language, it will be being able to face the person but in a non confrontational way. So I found that I often used to sit facing my client, but on a slight angle, and leaning toward them, rather than sitting back and looking like I was retreating, giving them eye contact, but not staring at them, either. Allowing space in the conversation, which is so important, because I think when you’re having conversations around things that are emotionally heavy, your nervousness can sometimes make you want to fill the space. And so one of the skills that I learned was just being able to leave some silence, especially when it looks like somebody is pondering or trying to come to a conclusion or find an answer. And, again, just being non judgmental, and trying not to anticipate what you’re going to say next. But just letting things emerge, not trying to fix the problem, but allowing the problem to emerge. So that then it’s out on the table, and both people can then discuss it.

Murray Guest  16:43

Yeah, there’s something that’s sticking with me there too, about not trying to fix somebody, but partner with them to potentially solve a problem or to achieve a goal. But I’m not trying to fix you. I’m not making you wrong. So even before your work in positive psychology, I’m hearing that was just part of who you were in your approach back then as well.

Bek Smith  17:05

Yeah, it was, and it was helpful earlier on, I think it was around 2012. I did some study in coaching. So I went and did a wellness coaching certificate. And that strengthened some of that natural tendency toward inquiry for me. And it helped me to take those lines of questioning with people in a in a more skillful way.

Murray Guest  17:31

Yeah, I’m loving those tips that you just shared, because I think whilst you may not be a practitioner, or a coach, or a leader, but they’re just great tips for anyone that wants to really show up in a way that’s really present for someone else.

Bek Smith  17:48

Yeah, whether that be in a professional context, or just with your mates.

Murray Guest  17:51

Yeah. Tell me what’s the difference between mental health and mental fitness.

Bek Smith  17:59

For me, the analogy that I use is to come back to the body and to consider a healthy body and a fit body. A healthy body is something that we might do with a little bit of input and consciousness and awareness. So in order to be healthy, we might be aware of eating right, we might be aware of exercising, we might be aware of staying hydrated enough and getting enough sleep. And for some people, there can be a little bit of effort involved in staying healthy. For some people, they seem to be naturally gifted with a healthy body. And they just seem to be able to do anything, eat anything, not look after themselves, and they their blood pressure stays great, their cholesterol stays great. Those people who tend to smoke for decades and turn out to be fine. And so health I feel can be hit or miss. Yeah, you can be lucky to be in good health, you can be unlucky to be in bad health. Sometimes it takes more effort, sometimes it doesn’t take a lot of effort at all. Whereas with a fitness approach, there is always effort involved in fitness, there is always something deliberate, that you’re doing. And it’s the same with mental health, some of us are lucky enough to have a good foundation of mental health that potentially some of us might take for granted. Others are unlucky to not have great mental health. And there have been lots of contributing factors around that just like physical health, but to be mentally fit, we need to take deliberate action. And just like with our bodies, the more deliberate action we take to make ourselves fitter, the more likely we are to also be healthy along the way. And it doesn’t mean that we’re not going to occasionally get sick, right? So the fittest healthiest person will still come down with a cold or a virus sometimes. But the fitter we are, the less likely we are to be struck down by illness. So For me, that’s the difference between health and fitness. It’s just taking it to that next level of deliberate action.

Murray Guest  20:06

Yeah, I’m also thinking about the ongoing investment. So if I think about an athlete and their fitness that’s like, yeah, I’m fit for the season. I’ve done my preseason training, I’m done. No, there’s an ongoing investment throughout the season, throughout the year throughout their life. And that’s what I would add, tell me if I’m wrong, I’m thinking about, okay, how do we continue that investment, that growth mindset around my mental fitness?

Bek Smith  20:34

Absolutely. And there’s the question – do I want to maintain the fitness that I have, or do I want to grow and progress the fitness that I have, what level do I want to be at with my mental fitness. And that is also going to depend on what challenges you’re required to face, so if you decide that you want to go from one sport to another, you might need to change your fitness regime. And if you decide that you want to start to lift heavier weights, you’re going to have to start to challenge yourself a little bit more. So it very much depends on what you want out of your life. But I think that it definitely lends itself to conversations when we’re talking about mental fitness around what do you want? And definitely, what kind of investment do you need to make to get there?

Murray Guest  21:17

And back in 2019, you did a TED talk on the importance of mental fitness?

Bek Smith  21:23

I did.

Murray Guest  21:25

Before we jump into the actual content, tell me about what it was like to do a TED talk.

Bek Smith  21:34

Yeah, it was so bizarre. Because over the past three years that I’ve been doing, speaking, a lot of my speaking is a bit more free flow. And I tend to think about beforehand what I want to say. And so when I’m going into a presentation of some sort, I’ll often have dot points in my mind of these are the three or the five key points that I want to make. And the way that I express that I’m just going to get there and it’s going to flow, and it’ll come out however it comes out. But as long as I cover those key points whereas with a TEDx talk, we were required to write out our script word for word, and then practice that verbatim over and over and over again, until we had it exactly right. Then on the day, you just hope that it’s all going to come out the way you’ve practiced. And in my case, it didn’t. If you watch the TEDx talk, you might go, Oh, yeah, that all flowed fine. But behind the scenes, what was happening is I got about five minutes in and realized that I’d forgotten this huge chunk. And it had just went. And so I’m still talking and going, Oh, my God, I forgot that big chunk. Do I just chuck it in now? Will it make sense if I say it now?

Murray Guest  22:51

Your impression of a duck swimming on water was fantastic.

Bek Smith  22:53

I walked out of there, walked off the stage. And the only thing I could think about was did it even make sense. So I didn’t get to see the recording until it went live on YouTube. And so I had no idea that it would even make sense. And when I watched it back, I was like, Ah, okay, you can actually comprehend what I’m trying to say, good. It was not what I intended.

Murray Guest  23:23

And for anyone that isn’t aware, the TEDx process has the 10 commandments, don’t they? Which is like the 10 things you are not to do when you’re on stage type of thing.

Bek Smith  23:33

Yeah, pretty much and the things that they were coaching us to do, because we had a speaking coach that worked alongside us with the build up process to help us both and write our content and in practice, how to deliver it. And there was a whole bunch of stagecraft around that that I had not been privy to before. So things like instead of gesturing with, you know, hand gestures that you would normally make in conversation, you have to make them three times bigger. And if you’re going, you know, 1-2-3, you have to project and be a lot more animated than I’m used to. So it felt very unnatural. But when you do watch it back on camera, you go, Ah, that actually, I didn’t look as big as I felt. Yeah. And it’s just such such a bizarre process, but one that I learned a lot from, and I’m really grateful for.

Murray Guest  24:28

Yeah, well, I’ve heard about 20% more. But what you’re saying maybe it was 40%, right?

Bek Smith  24:37

Yeah, everything goes big.

Murray Guest  24:39

Yeah. I love what you talk about in your TEDx talk about bringing this mental fitness and physical fitness together. So this dream you have about when people go and get something looked at in their body or the physical body, that there’s those conversations that you and I have been talking about that are also happening from a practitioner or a coach, whoever it might be a trainer, around the emotional and the mental side. How do we get to that place? Do you reckon?

Bek Smith  25:11

Yeah, it’s gonna be a journey. First of all, thanks for watching the TEDx talk. I think that that perspective for me came from my work in the fitness industry as well. So I’ve been teaching group exercise for a long time, as you mentioned in the introduction, and I’ve noticed that even though I haven’t worked as a personal trainer, I have a lot of personal trainer friends. And they say similar things to me, like I was experiencing as a physiotherapist, that they get a lot of clients who will offload things emotionally onto them. And in their personal trainer role, they don’t feel like they have the capability to be able to coach their clients with what they need. And so the marriage between physical fitness and mental fitness for me was really born out of my experiences as a physio as well as listening to those experiences of personal trainers and feeling as though there is such a gap, when we’re talking about our health practitioners and our fitness providers in what we are able to provide for clients. And because I had done that coaching qualification, I started to think, my gosh, even if everybody just did a little bit of extra wellbeing coaching, and was able to then not solve problems for their clients, but lead them through that process of inquiry about, oh, what could my next step be? That would be so valuable. And then the next step after that is, well, what if we actually had some practical skills and tools that we could offer clients, which doesn’t fall into the scope of psychotherapy, however, stays within our lane, and helps us to help those clients more. And those things might simply be around, you know, some of the work that you do in asking them about their strengths, and how they can apply that to their fitness? Or to their recovery process, their rehabilitation? Asking people, instead of what’s wrong with your body at the moment, what do you want to fix? Asking them, what’s going right in your body? What do you appreciate? What are you grateful for in your body, and just getting people to think a little bit differently. And I don’t think that we need to be sitting on a psychologist couch in order to give people some of those skills and tools that they need to just think a little bit differently.

Murray Guest  27:35

And I’m thinking about how with all good intent, some people might be you know, ‘When all you’ve got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail’. So people come to your your class and you go, we’re going to do this program, and we’re going to force this out, we’re going to do this program, we’re going to do that program. But actually maybe based on today’s mental health or mental fitness of somebody, we actually need to do something a bit different, maybe we need to modify that, maybe we need to work with them a little bit differently, based on where we’re at today. Because where we’re at today might be totally different from where they were last week.

Bek Smith  28:13

Yeah, absolutely. And we can carry so many assumptions that what was okay last week is still okay this week. And just because I’m able to do it somebody else will be able to do it. And from a group fitness perspective, when I’m teaching classes, which are around, most of the stuff that I teach is dance based or yoga based. And I will always offer two or three variations of moves, because I don’t want to make an assumption about the ability of my client that day, let alone in general. And my classes have always been quite full of a range of diverse people, different ages, different genders, different ability levels. And it’s because I’m quite inclusive in the way that I teach. So if you can’t do it this way, just do it this way instead. And I encourage people to be non judgmental about themselves and to be compassionate about themselves and to really listen to their body. So I’ve always blended those kind of internal reflection processes into our physical practice, because I think it’s really important to marry the two together.

Murray Guest  29:24

Yeah, I heard about some research a few years ago, and I wish I could reference it correctly. But the research was around, if you have people do exercise that they love, they’ll actually have a better improvement, they’ll achieve better results than if you get someone to do exercise that they actually don’t like doing. So I’m not a swimmer. I can swim, but if you asked me to go and do laps of the pool, I’m just not going to get the results of someone else that loves swimming. And so I’m wondering what your perspective is there around that link between our emotional or mental perspective of the exercise and the exercise that we do.

Bek Smith  30:12

The connection is just enormous. And I’ve always encouraged people to explore different forms of physical exercise to find what works for them, and not just throw the baby out with the bathwater. So if they don’t like running, don’t give up on exercise altogether. If you don’t like that exercise at the gym, don’t give up on it altogether. But just keep experimenting until you find what’s right for you. Maybe it’s roller skating, maybe it’s weightlifting, maybe it is chasing your dog around the yard, or whatever it is, find what brings you joy. I think that the more I have followed my joy in my life, the more it has taken me to places that are not only making me happy, but making me more productive and making me more useful for other people as well.

Murray Guest  30:58

I love the link here to what brings you joy and what brought you joy as a child. And how can you do a version of that now? For me, when I ride my mountain bike, I’m thinking I’ve got my flannel shirt on my tracksuit pants, and I’m with the guys in the bush and I’m 12 years old. And on school holidays. And sometimes I can smell something when I’m riding my bike. I’m like, back there. And that brings me that joy. Where swimming takes me back to swimming lessons, of being screamed at with a kickboard. I’m like, Oh, no, no thanks. So what’s that thing that brought you joy when you were young? And how can you do a version of that now?

Bek Smith  31:45

Gosh, I love that. That’s something for everybody who’s listening to this to really consider and such a great takeaway.

Murray Guest  31:51

Yeah, maybe it’s go climb a tree?

Bek Smith  31:53

Yeah, yep. Go play with some hula hoops. See where that takes you.

Murray Guest  31:59

Not very far, my hips aren’t that flexible.

Bek Smith  32:03

I took up rollerblading again. And that’s brought me so much joy. I’m so terrible at it. And I feel like a baby giraffe and so uncoordinated. But I am just having so much fun with it and meeting new people. And yeah, I’ve been exercising at the gym for you know, two decades. But just adding another little string to my exercise bow has been so much fun.

Murray Guest  32:28

And you’re using different muscles.

Bek Smith  32:30

Yeah, absolutely. And different social connections, there was a very interesting opportunity we had at the gym that I work at this year, when we were returning from the COVID lockdown in South Australia, where people had to book in for classes and book in for gym visits. With gym visits meaning going to exercise independently on the treadmill, or do weights or whatever. And the uptake of individual gym visits versus the uptake of group fitness classes was extraordinarily different. So with people coming back, we had about 24% uptake of individual gym visits, versus 86% saturation of group fitness classes.

Murray Guest  33:16

Wow.

Bek Smith  33:16

And I think that’s because of the social connection that gets created when you’re exercising with others. And that’s what people were missing and wanting to come back to. So one of my big tips around exercising mentally, or exercising physically, is to also ask yourself, How can I incorporate others into this journey with me? Because the social accountability can be really powerful but the social enjoyment can be really powerful, too.

Murray Guest  33:42

Yeah. And we’re pack animals aren’t we? 

Bek Smith  33:47

Yep, absolutely. And I’m not going to get out of bed at six in the morning on my own. But if my friend Maria is going to come and join me, yeah, well, I got to get up because I don’t want to disappoint Maria. So we often do things to you know, keep playing along with the pack.

Murray Guest  34:01

Yeah, I totally agree. Now just to help bring together some of your insights, and to help my listeners around some of those tips to really develop that mental fitness. You shared a few things already, but what would you say are some of those key things that people can do to build that mental fitness?

Bek Smith  34:22

I think one tip comes back to my point around balance that I mentioned before, you know, so many things come back to balance for me. And with mental fitness training, it’s important to have a variety of strategies. The same as though we might cross train with our body. If you are only doing heavy weight lifting for one muscle group, you will end up creating an imbalance in your body. And if you’re not stretching, and if you’re not exercising other parts of your body and in other ways, then you’re going to lead to an injury or a dysfunction. So there are approaches within psychology, like cognitive behavioral techniques, for instance, that if you only work with cognitive behavioral techniques and nothing else, you might end up becoming quite rigid in only working with those techniques. So rather than just thinking about your thinking, maybe diversify and also use other mental fitness strategies like mindfulness, or cultivating positive emotion, or practicing stillness, practicing authenticity, and have a range of different mental fitness exercises that you do so that instead of only training for mental strength, you’re also training for your mental flexibility and agility and your mental endurance as well.

Murray Guest  35:37

Oh, I like that so much. Because I’m just thinking about how that looks in my life and the people I work with. And I think quite often, we can go down the rabbit hole of our I need to go and do a whole program of ‘blah’ to invest in my mental fitness and wellbeing but let’s try a few things and keep that balance going. So something that’s worked strongly for me is active meditation.

Bek Smith  36:15

Oh, I like it. Tell me more about that?

Murray Guest  36:18

Well, I used to think I had to go and sit in the forest with my legs crossed and harm my hands in a perfect pose and recite something. And I realized that that’s not what it’s about. That, by doing different tasks, I can get into that zone. I realize I’m quite meditative. And I can feel like my breathing comes back under control, I’m more focused, and my energy levels are better, my hormones are balanced out, and I’m much more relaxed and less stressed doing different techniques. And to be honest, it might be sweeping the floor slowly, mindfully, or, you know, taking the clothes off the line – I’m not going to rush and rip them off, I’m just going to slowly take them off, and take that time out. And definitely riding my mountain bike, I can get like that if there’s a trail I know where the risks are, I can feel like I’m resetting.

Bek Smith  37:14

Absolutely. I love that you’ve mentioned that because I was speaking with somebody this week around stillness and mindfulness. And she was saying, I really struggle with it. You know, she has a complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. And she said, sitting in stillness is excruciating. For me, it just brings so much up that I can’t handle and we were talking about exercise, physical exercise as a form of meditation. And because I know her through the gym, I said, What about movement? You know, are you able to get into the zone through exercise, and she was like, Oh, that’s the only way I can do it. So I will do more of that. If that’s something that you love, it’s bringing you joy, it’s helping you to clear your mind. Your body may be moving, but your mind is more still. And so you’re getting that balance, which is great.

Murray Guest  38:03

Yeah. And again, I think that leads to your strengths based approach or positive psychology approach, which actually helps tap into what works best for the individual.

Bek Smith  38:14

Yeah, because there is no recipe that’s going to suit everybody. Just like there is no recipe of food that you can make that is going to please everybody’s palate. There is no mental fitness recipe, or physical fitness recipe that’s going to suit everybody in every mind.

Murray Guest  38:31

And not everybody likes coriander. 

Bek Smith  38:33

I know.

Murray Guest  38:35

But they should. 

Bek Smith  38:36

I can’t stand coriander

Murray Guest  38:40

We have a problem now. I actually heard there’s a genetic disposition where people can taste coriander like soap. But it tastes fantastic. Honestly.

Bek Smith  38:58

I had a bad experience with a food poisoning dish with coriander, I just haven’t come back from it

Murray Guest  39:07

Yeah. Mine’s bourbon from when I was about 15. But that’s a different story.

Bek Smith  39:14

Some of these things we need to rewire and some of them can just be left well alone. 

Murray Guest  39:18

That one’s staying there. I don’t need that one at all. Bek, thank you so much for your time. It has been awesome. You are doing some amazing work. It’s been so great to connect and share your insights and your journey. And I’ve got a couple of quick questions to ask you to help us wrap up. One question is, what’s your vision for the future?

Bek Smith  39:41

My vision for the future is one where people take much more deliberate action with their mental health and one where we are embracing as a society, preventive mental health strategies, rather than waiting until we get in crisis before we do something about our psychological wellbeing.

Murray Guest  39:59

Now, this one I haven’t prepped you with. This next question, if you could hire a billboard, and on that billboard has a message and everyone in the world – all 7 billion – drive past and they see that message. You can hire that billboard for a while. What is your message on the Billboard?

Bek Smith  40:23

I think my message would have to be a question. And it would just be something to stimulate people to think a little bit more deeply around looking after themselves and others. So it might be something around, Who are you looking after today? Because I think we need to consider what we’re giving, as well as what we’re taking in this world. And we also need to think, you know, am I looking after myself? Do I need to look after somebody else today to really get over this epidemic of loneliness and disconnection that we have? Yes, that’s the first thing that comes to mind. Tomorrow, it could be different. 

Murray Guest  41:03

We can update the billboard every week. That’s okay.

Bek Smith  41:06

Oh, that’s exciting, I think come up with a whole list.

Murray Guest  41:12

Thank you so much. And for people to find more about you, I’ll make sure in the show notes is a link to your LinkedIn profile. I know you share some amazing stuff on LinkedIn. And also check out Smith and Wellness, your website, which has got lots of cool stuff. And to finish this up, tell me what is your definition of inspired energy today?

Bek Smith  41:35

A definition of inspired energy is around looking at, if you break down the word spire, a spire is a pinnacle, and inspire means to breathe in or take in. And people have often spoken about in ye olde days around inspire being taking in spirit or taking in higher knowledge. So my definition around inspired energy is around cultivating the energy or cultivating the momentum that nourishes our highest being. And that could be our highest knowledge, our highest physical presence, our highest spiritual presence. But it’s about that taking in to keep generating that energy and keep generating that momentum to help us be our best selves. 

Murray Guest  42:21

Oh, I love that. I love that so much. And I love your link to ye oldie times whenever it was as well.

Bek Smith  42:30

Whenever that was…

Murray Guest  42:33

Thank you so much for all your wisdom and knowledge and energy today. It is been such a privilege to spend some time with you. Thank you so much.

Bek Smith  42:42

Thank you, Murray. I really appreciate your generosity of time and your generosity of knowledge sharing as well and giving myself and all the other speakers that you’ve had on your show this platform to share a little bit of insight.

Murray Guest  42:53

I really appreciate the chance I get to meet lots of awesome people like you, wishing you all the best for the rest of 2020 and an amazing and fulfilling 2021.

Bek Smith  43:04

Thank you and to you and to everybody listening and thanks. You take care of yourselves and each other. Bye bye.

Episode 80 – Ben Bateman | Building a Strengths-based culture at Little Miracles

In this episode I chat with Ben Bateman, head of people and culture for Little Miracles Childcare, father, husband and self proclaimed adrenalin chaser. 

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Ben, welcome to the podcast. It is so good to see you and to be chatting with you. I still reflect on our time four years ago, when you were starting at little miracles, the strengths journey, and I’m so excited to explore what’s been happening and how you’ve been bringing strengths into everything you do. But before we get into all that, how’s life?

Ben Bateman  00:22

Yeah, really good man. In a season where? Yeah, my family’s doing really well. I’m in a good space in myself as well. And yeah, really enjoying life and the work that I’m doing last a roller coaster sets and bumps but by and large might really, really well thank you.

Murray Guest  00:40

Well, good. I am missing some of your travel the sheet because I know you were a bit. You enjoy the travel? Oh, that’s

Ben Bateman  00:47

a very much a sore spot. Yes. I was meant to be going to Japan snowboarding in January. So that’s that’s very much a sore spot. And yeah, I get the guy who stays with work in budget at least twice a year normally say that’s the thing. I’m missing most. I love adventure. So yeah, he got me me.

Murray Guest  01:05

Yeah, I’m, I was meant to be in America this year at the strength summit in Omaha. And obviously that went online. We had plans for a family trip to Europe for a white Christmas. Oh, wow. So that okay, that didn’t happen. But lots of travel plans locally. And I’m just I’m loving seeing the investment in regional. Australia. Yeah. Which is driving all of that, you know, let’s get back and explore our own country as well. So yeah, looking forward to some of that.

Ben Bateman  01:36

Definitely. I’m actually in a user advice in January, man, I’m gonna get a thredbo and do some mountain biking instead this year? Oh, yeah. So I’ve never been June, the summer. So it’s gonna be cool together. There’s no reason to be in nature and explored in a different way. Yeah, I did. A man walking down.

Murray Guest  01:54

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you know it too. And I did thredbo Ah, must have been three, four years ago, and is fantastic. Yeah, and such a great vibe. And, and I’m not as young as you, I don’t bounce as good as you. So I better see what some of the people can do down there. It’s just, you know, it’s like when you get snowboarding do so great. You get some spikes. And there’s some really good trials down there, of course. So

Ben Bateman  02:19

yeah, I’m really gonna take it easy. I am 45.

02:23

So I definitely

Ben Bateman  02:24

don’t be on either. And I’ve got into mountain biking through some of my much younger mates in their 20s. And so, you know, but I take every line very differently to what they do, mate. So we had the conversation with him, should I go to thredbo? Because I’m not, I’m, I’m going by myself too. So it’s very hard at home if I get injured. So yeah, take it easy.

Murray Guest  02:44

So you got to do there’s a couple of loop trails that are quite longer and flowing. And there’s a trail which goes from thredbo out to Lake crackenback, which flows along the river. Okay, and that’s so you got to do that one. That one’s really good. That’s just nice and flowing. Next is crystal Creek clear screen streams. It’s a fantastic how we could talk about mountain biking for the next day, or

Ben Bateman  03:08

should we could I just write that down? Because that sounds good, man,

Murray Guest  03:12

we’re gonna head out to what was the scattering but

Ben Bateman  03:15

I do ironbark with my mate. So yeah, we should do that sometime.

Murray Guest  03:18

Yeah. So mate, just to get to set the scene a little. Tell me what strengths means for you personally, and a strengths based approach.

Ben Bateman  03:28

Wow. So strength for me personally has unlocked my personal development potential. It helped me to have a language to understand myself. Like strengths talks about name, climate and payment, we’ve changed a little bit in lm. And this is me personally to strengths discovery, awareness and development. And we use a lot of other tools before from the disc assessment to Myers Briggs, but that when strengths goes to a whole nother level, for me is the development piece. Those other tools give you good discovery and awareness, but they don’t give you a great development, in my opinion. I’m sure other people get more out of them. But for me personally and professionally at the development side of what strengths has done for us, and then strengths has given me language around my talents as well that I’ve never had before. And that’s been fantastic. 45 I’m trying to be a much healthier whole human being, and actually leaning to my strengths, often to think about my constructive and destructive side of my talents. And give me a framework to think about that. And to really work on my development professionally as a parent, in the way I interact with my wife. And I’m much more gracious with myself to where I lack talent down the bottom in that bottom 10 or 12 and I feel Much more confident. Yeah, to say, look, I just like telling those areas and that that’s okay. I just need to find a partner or a tool to help me become proficient in that area. But yeah, yeah, I make sense.

Murray Guest  05:15

It makes perfect sense to me. You and I are so aligned in what strengths is meant for you. And it’s meant for me, and how it helps me show up more my true self. Yeah. And yeah, in those conversations with everybody in my life, from my children, to my wife, to my family, my biggest family, my friends, my clients, everybody and i, you said something about being a bit more gracious to self. And I’ve found it for myself and for clients to work with about strengths help us be a bit more kind to ourselves around 100 100%. Yeah, beating ourselves up about something that we’re not good at, or that we have a blind spot in. But now understand why and be kind to myself to, you know, lift me out of those dark moments.

Ben Bateman  06:03

Yeah. Yeah, we’re kindred spirits, they might, when you spoke about the true self to like, I’ve done some development work in that area of my wife, and I feel like Strengths lines up really well. We try and understand my true self and be my true self. But that kindness can pace we would even talk in our company about being compassionate, and having self compassion. That’s definitely that kindness is talking about. And I’m young, growing that area, and I’m being able to empower people to be more self compassionate as well, which is so cool. We’re so hard on ourselves. Yeah. And the destructive ways.

Murray Guest  06:41

And 2020 I think you and I were talking before we started our chat today about what you know, the years been, like, for so many people so hard in so many ways. And you know, strengths is a great way for us to understand how we’re showing up, isn’t it? Yeah,

Ben Bateman  06:55

definitely. It’s been good for me to reflect on. Where I am showing up in destructive ways that we talk about strengths a lot. The overextension of our strength is a weakness. And yeah, definitely, that’s where our most destructive often is, in my own extensions of my strengths. And just to know, that have that self awareness has helped me to not go as far down that destructive path, I still take destructive paths, I just tend to not go as fine. Yeah. And then yeah, and strength has been a significant tool in empowering me in that space. And I’m very grateful for.

Murray Guest  07:35

Yeah, I would build on that, too. And add what I’ve had that realization more and more is how it’s enabled me to explain why, or how I’m doing something with other people. Okay. And I was just thinking just recently about my communication and how, with my communication, I’m keen to talk about something and get it out. But the ideas not fully formed. The order, the words aren’t even in the right order, but I want to just talk about it. So it gives me a way to say, Hey, this is something want to talk about, but I haven’t really thought through, and this is where I’m going. And that I think is me permission and confidence to to have that conversation.

Ben Bateman  08:15

Yeah, I love what you just did there, you are aware, self aware of where communication is destructive for you. But you can actually lead with that now. And I do that with my teams a lot. I talk to them fairly quickly, when I want to partner with someone about where I’m not very talented. So that we can actually explore that upfront. This is where I can really frustrate people. And I will go there fairly quickly with teammates, based on their strengths, if they’ve got a lot of executing which I have none, my top 10 that’s going to be an area of frustration more for them than it is for me. So I need to be aware of that, trying to work on with him on that. But part of the way I do that is to help them to know that they can talk to me about that anytime. And I want them to point that out when that’s frustrating. And it will be at some point. Yeah, it’s been really helpful. For from my teams with me.

Murray Guest  09:09

It’s again, it’s a building trust, isn’t it through that permission of Hey, I want you to raise this with me if I’m being a bit destructive.

Ben Bateman  09:17

Yes,

Murray Guest  09:20

Can I ask if there was one strength that you’ve just really embraced? Why not to that, you know, you just, you know, really sees you and as like a grounding strength. What’s one of those ones in your, you know, top five or 10 that you just?

Ben Bateman  09:39

Yeah, ideation is one number one. So what I’m most passionate about the one that gives me the greatest joy, but it wasn’t really until strength. So what’s up four years ago that I really wish I would have said I was a dreamer, as a kid, and even up until that stage and I have a vivid imagination. I didn’t realize how construction It was and how unique it was. That’s partly what I love that strengths is you understand your own uniqueness. Yeah. Helps me not expect other people to be able to dream or say things the way I can. But to you my ideation, something I come back to frequently when I want to feel more alive, I can use really constructive ways. And then also, I can see when my wife would say, I’m so heavenly minded, I’m no earthly good, because I’m busy having cool thoughts and dreams, and I’m ignoring things around the house or my kids or now. I understand that now. And so she’s able to gently remind me, hey, you’ve got some things to do. Besides, I can come back to that I’m in healthy ways now. But, so I’m leaning into it more and more, I’m appreciating it more and more. And I give myself time and permission to use ideation more. But are limited, that might sound weird, or give myself more time but are limited. So I, I dealt with that mean to, you know, I can overdo it, when I should be doing other things. Now, I’m trying to put it into constructive spaces. So I’ll give myself half an hour here on a set on certain days to really lean into my ideation rather than just letting it run in the background all the time.

Murray Guest  11:31

I love what you when you talk about your relationship with Nell. And just reminds me of the relationship I have with Tammy, and how strengths has enabled us to call each other out on behaviors in a positive way. And yeah, and not as positive, let’s just say in a helpful or constructive a loving way, which some people I know do some really great work with strengths and relationships. And that’s one area I really focus on. But I can talk from a personal perspective and like you can about how it just helps us support each other. And God and coach even when their strengths are showing up in in the dark and the light.

Ben Bateman  12:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely helped me to not just understand myself, but be much more gracious with know as well when she is. So achievers one of her top five. It’s really low for me. So one of the things we did, I’ve done here with staff, and with some of our parent community is to get to people’s all 34 linemen up beside each other. And we draw lines and we look for lines where, where one person has a stroke client and one person has a strength flow, and see that as a place for friction. Yep. And we look for what strengths do you have in common? And there’s real places of alignment and collaboration. So it’s been really helpful for me to know where I have. Yeah, we have. So if I pick achiever when nails running hard to achieve, and the last thing I feel like doing is actually giving her space, and also giving my space, myself space. So encouraging, empowering her acknowledging that that’s what she’s needing in that moment. But also being able to speak up and acknowledge that I don’t need that right now. So how do we collaborate somewhere in the middle?

Murray Guest  13:28

Yeah. Tammy has referred to me as her spreadsheet man a number of times, because that’s what I can bring to our relationship. You did start to touch on some of the great work you do it little miracles there. And little miracles have as I understand at the moment, 10 centers and about 300 staff is it?

Ben Bateman  13:48

Yeah, bit of Yes. 300. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Murray Guest  13:51

So tell us about what makes little miracles unique. I’ve got some thoughts cause you do some amazing work. But what comes to mind for you?

Ben Bateman  13:59

What comes to mind for me is focus on people and productivity another some really wonderful companies that Gallup does work with around this. So we’re not unique in that. But it’s something that we’re very passionate about. It does come from our our faith as well. So we are a family owned and operated business. So I’m one of four siblings, that eldest and my parents, the two founders of the business, were Christians. So we don’t want that to be an overt attack people upside the head, everybody needs to come to Jesus kind of thing. It’s by it. So we most of us are not Christians. 90% are not we don’t hire or promote based on people’s faith, we promote and hire based on people’s capacity. So where it does come in really strongly is in our values, and the way we seek to treat People. And that’s so for us, you, people are just as important as productivity or profit. And that’s a tricky balance. But it’s when we work really hard for. We don’t always get it right. But most of our stuff I want to say most, because there’s always, I guess, as a head of people and culture, I get to hear the bits where people don’t like us, from parents to staff. But we overwhelmingly happen to me again yesterday, where a staff members talking about the experience she had in her last center, and the experience, she’s having, sorry, I got that wrong. She came work for us as a trainee, she left and go to deployment position somewhere else. And she just emailed me asking me if we’ve got any deployment positions available, because she wants to come back to a culture where she’s treated with love and respect. Yeah, we hear that story over and over again. So it helps me to understand that it’s not just hot air, but we actually are living a culture where people experience where they are experiencing feeling really valued.

Murray Guest  16:14

Yeah. And I think, from my experience of working with you, you know, nearly four years ago, you know, your name, little miracles, as a organization, you truly live and breathe that know that you do that treating, you know, I would even say big miracles as well, the little miracles of your, your children that you that you teach, develop, grow, nurture, and then the miracles in each staff as well.

Ben Bateman  16:44

Yeah, we would say that everybody has incredible value, and that comes back to our face. So whether it’s a parent, a staff member, a child, or an auxiliary support, so that might be the coals man that drops off, they’re shopping for the food for their children, they are just as valuable as my parents as the founders, everybody has the same level of value, and everybody needs to be treated with that respect. So we work really hard at that, where, yeah, we have a culture called culture of honor. So we’re everybody, there were three pillars we work to that everybody would feel appreciated. Man, it was, and now it’s appreciated, understood. Counting down, and that’s really bad. So significant, appreciate significant and understood the three pillars when it comes to cultural honor. And in that back comes activator, right? So everybody would be honored, everybody will be valued as part of our community. And so we want to be a community and not just a company, we want our staff to know that they are just as valuable as a person and not just as a, an employee, or as a product. So strengths. For us, one of the ways we’ve really used it is that when we do strengths development, we don’t want to just do about their professional life, we really want to be about their personal life as well. So we spent a fair bit of time working with them around how they can use it in their personal life, because to us, that’s just as important as their productivity with us, as a professional educator.

Murray Guest  18:29

And and as you and I just touched on at the start about the impact strengths has made in our personal lives. And as an employer, I’m sure you see the impact it makes in someone’s personal life, when that person starts to embrace strengths in the way that they live and breathe with their life outside of work. And then that flows back into work as well.

Ben Bateman  18:51

100%. So one of the ways that we have done that is we have done partners strengths as well. We offered that where we run nights where a staff member can come they can bring their partner in, that might be a romantic partner, a parent or friend, or send them a code, and they can do their five strengths as well. And we pay for that. Because we want to invest in our staff, personally, and not just professionally. And then yeah, we’ll run a night where we’ll talk about how they can partner to get a better based on their strengths. And the feedback we’ve had from that been phenomenal. Yeah, I love that. And in organization of 300, we probably have 30 staff that are super passionate about strengths and go and develop on their own. They probably have another 30 to 60 that really enjoy it or take any opportunity we provide to be developed. And then we have some in the middle that that really enjoy it, but don’t really want to keep going further. And then we have some that Yeah, I like it, but it hasn’t had a huge impact. Yeah, I’ve got so how do we work with all those groups is one of our challenges and something that we are Trying to reflect on at the end of the year to look at our development process for next year. But for everybody, whether they love it or not, it’s a that’s a common language. Yeah. And that common language of strengths has been vital for our growth, and even vital to our people. Because now I can clearly see where someone’s different to me. And I can I now have a language to honor those differences. When in the past, I probably would have just talked about how those things frustrated me. Now I know where the beauty and not just the brokenness is in people’s talents that are different to mine.

Murray Guest  20:36

Yeah, I know you talk about appreciating the whole of a person that beauty and the brokenness, how does in little miracles, how does strengths help someone move through that brokenness or embrace that and understand that?

Ben Bateman  20:54

Yeah. So we’ve developed a whole another in house development program called wholehearted. And we did that because we’ve had limitations through other two tools we use, which is Gallup strengths. And then we have a leadership tool called transformational leadership. Both as tools are wonderful tools. But what they weren’t helping us to do is to help people through their brokenness, because broken people, break people, and whole people help bring healing to others, and you bring yourself to work every day. So having a culture where we ask everybody to value people, everybody around them is super tricky, right? So I felt like we weren’t actually giving people what we’re asking people to do something that was pretty unachievable. Unless we’re going to help people become more whole. They are going to do destructive things. And I do destructive things, too. So we would talk about being broken healers, we want to help people become more whole, insistently have some brokenness, and we don’t have everything together. But the more people are, the more they’ll be able to find and bring out the wholeness in others, and pre healing to other people.

Murray Guest  22:13

And if you’ve got a culture where everyone’s doing that internal work on themselves, about how I can grow, develop, be better. There’s a ripple effect, isn’t it that lifts the whole culture that lives the whole Center, the whole organization? Yeah.

Ben Bateman  22:28

Yep, beautifully put with, we’re only we’ve only had 10% of our staff go through our whole whole program. It’s only new COVID actually gave some space to work on that. But we’re already seeing an uptick in people’s ability to relate to themselves. So how hard it is to be proud of yourself compassion, knowing we are broken, integrating that, working through it through understanding vulnerability, forgiveness, love, but not mushy, romantic love, self sacrificial kind of love, and how we want to be a community. It’s all about power with and not power over. And part of our conversation as well. We are good at that to varying degrees. But that’s definitely a a goal or something that we’re working really hard towards, how do we be power? And that’s tricky and professional scripts. And because I have power over because of my role. So but how do I denaro power with to the best of my ability? How do I share power instead of you do it? Because I said, I can. I can fire you.

Murray Guest  23:42

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, a lot of teams talk, obviously, about collaboration. And you’re just framing that up in a much more, I think, even productive way, because people say I want to collaborate more. But actually, what does that really look like? And what I’m hearing is, okay, we’ve got power, everyone has a level of power, what does it look like we combine our powers. And we do that with each other? Obviously, strengths is a part of that. But what are those other elements that we bring to the table as well?

Ben Bateman  24:11

Totally. So strengths are that most common language. So we’ve been using a lot of Bernie Browns work, if you know how to program, we’re about to start doing a series with all our leadership groups going through her day to late book. So all our directors and managers we make by meet with them once a month in our three different regions, and I spend an hour talking through a chapter on a book. And then that notes in each region, any staff member from a trainee, right on the way up, if they’re not pilot leadership group can actually come and meet with me and then a group from that region to do that same leadership development. So it’s just something we offer to everybody.

Murray Guest  24:55

I just say, Oh, no, just acknowledge that there for that your time. Your investment in everyone getting that opportunity for their own development. And just that’s not a common approach. There’s been investment in the latest do that. And then I can imagine you going right on a jump in my car and head back home. Yeah. But actually, what you’re putting in place here is I’m actually going to stay and provide this to other people, to help them for their own personal leadership as well. And that’s, I think, such a great approach.

Ben Bateman  25:27

Thank you. I really appreciate that. But it’s living at those days where I can say, I care, I can say that I really well, we would talk often about we want to help everybody reach their full potential. But we need to back that up with action and not just word. And so yeah. And it’s a cost to attach that. Sure. But we believe in the investment into our staff, personally, not just investment into them professionally.

Murray Guest  25:53

Yeah. Something that’s on my mind. And that’s that in strengths we talk about two people can achieve that level of high performance approaching their work differently through their strengths. What does that look like, in a center where you’ve got people, teachers, approaching the way they might do their role through their strengths?

Ben Bateman  26:16

So yeah, beautiful question, and one we use consistently. So in a preschool room, there’s two main things that are important in any day, and that is the care of children, and the education of children. So we needed both of those things from the babies all the way up. And if in strengths, if you’re This is where we use the colors a lot, we were took a staff, the high blue, that are going to naturally see and do the caring side of being an educator. And if you hire purple, you’re gonna naturally see and do the task based things. And so we try in every room to have someone that’s high below and someone that’s high purple, in every room wherever possible, because both those things are equally important. Now, every room has a room leader, and she will usually have an error, actually the be blue, or purple predominately, or lean that way. And so one of the things we do is we actually work with her in layers to help them understand what is their natural, where, who they are first, yeah. Are they executed? Or are they a relationship builder first. And then we talk about that we actually look at the strengths of their team. And we encourage them to understand their strengths, their top five of all their team members, so that they can know where they will frustrate their team, and where they can be that well rounded team. So yeah, we’re looking to have well rounded teams wherever possible. It’s one of the one of the things we major on in strengths is having a well rounded teams and using not individual strengths, but but you’re more using the colors to go Okay, what does this team need? What is going to be the overextension of this particular room later, our room leaders meet with their air manager and their director, at least once a fortnight. And so strengths will be used in those conversations. Sometimes we use strengths for performance development, often,

Murray Guest  28:17

yep, yep. So what does that look like with strengths and performance development? How is that? Is that in a formal process, or is that more in a coaching sort of conversation, or both?

Ben Bateman  28:29

Much more in a coaching conversation. So I’ve done so all that stuff had their top five, but all of our management staff had their all 34s. So everybody, within hopefully, within three months of joining little miracles, does a one hour Skype session with myself a coaching call, usually three to four, three to six other people. And that will be an introduction. But if you’re in the management level, I do a one hour one on one around people’s or 30 fours, looking at their leadership style, and looking at their personal development. And then I will coach them from there periodically, depending on what their needs, so that most of our airmen just have a really good understanding of strengths and use it frequently. If they’ve got a specific performance problem, they will actually often ring me and our will have the phone have a conversation with the air. Imagine the director looking at that stuff in the strength and see if we can use strengths as a way to bring healthy performance management for that person and quit 80% of the time, we can look at a strength that’s being overextended yet, or we can see an area of weakness. And then we can have such healthy conversation with people. If someone’s got four, our top five blue and they’re struggling with getting tasks done, we’re not gonna smack them over the head because that’s not their natural capacity. So we need to find a partner or a tool that will help them become proficient in that area. So when when not gonna, we want to have realistic expectations. strengths helps us to have realistic expectations around what staff can actually do, not what we’d like them to do.

Murray Guest  30:13

Yeah. And if anyone listening that is new to strengths or has limited understanding. I think there can sometimes be this misconception it’s all about unicorns, rainbows and Skittles, and lovey dovey, but strengths helps have those tough conversations doesn’t it Ben.

Ben Bateman  30:30

Yeah, it makes those tough conversations so much more constructive. Yeah, is our experience of it. Because before we’d be more much, helping them with an area of weakness, and not really have anything productive to bring to that lucky vibe, let’s take your communication, which is one of the ones you love in this hall for you. If I have a staff member that’s communicating too frequently talking too much to have a conversation with her about dialing down his strength. And I love your communication. This is where your communication is really helpful to our team to get this when you overextend. Your communication is when it’s destructive. Yeah. asking her to dial down is a much easier conversation, then in the past, we would have said, Can you stop talking so much, please? That what how did she do that?

Murray Guest  31:19

Yeah. And that. And that feels like a personal attack. It’s like, I’m going to talk about an attribute a strength part of you, that you can, as we know, dial up and dial down versus making someone wrong.

Ben Bateman  31:33

Yeah, yeah. And if it’s, if it’s in your top five, you love it, it brings you so much. I’m asking you to stop doing what what you’re passionate about. Like this such. Yes, I strengths has been amazing for us in that space. And yeah, so we would often look at data and dialing down that is the tool we often use in performance development, where they need to dial up or dial down, or where is a partner or a, or a tool that will help them become more proficient? And yeah, we use that a lot.

Murray Guest  32:07

I am going back to a conversation. And when we did some work back four years ago, and one of the I think she was standing up in the director role or the center manager roll out a Blaxland. Center, and she had community competition. And remember, just this beautiful enthusiasm in a real healthy way she was applying that theme to how can we be at our best How can we, in a healthy competition, drive our observations and the development of the children across the rooms are such a great example of the the constructive way to apply that thing. And just I still use it as a an example to other people about the positive application of competition.

Ben Bateman  33:01

Yes, that’s beautiful. So one of my challenges is I’m dyslexic. So I often forget people’s names that I know really well, so I can see her face, she actually became our Director of that center long term until she had her little girl. Yeah, so but she’s still back in the center, but not in the directors role. And one of our other members of our black Center also has high competition. And yet, that center, which is a center that you we that you came in coach this in around strings, so we can get an idea whether we want to roll that strengts across the board. Blaxland is definitely our strongest center when it comes to strengths. So I don’t know if that’s all you Murray or speaks to my lack of credit. No, I’m just kidding. One. So it’s one of the most stable centers in terms of staff have been there for a long time. We are a growing company. So often we will bring a couple of experienced staff will go to the next center to bring strong culture. Yes, black vans being a Blue Mountain center, we only have two of those. They’ve been there for four plus years. So we had a lot of leadership staff there long term. And they love strengths. They’ve really embraced it. And they talk about it frequently. And it was an interesting thing. So I get what strengths has done is allowed us to have a healthy language around differences. Well, each one of my directors actually leads their teams a little bit differently. We’re a reasonable sized company. So we have a lot of policies and procedures. If you go into one little recurse center, it’s very similar to the next. But they are a little bit different because the leader is a little bit different. Yeah. How do we helpfully allow that leader to lead that scene a little bit differently, baby in the little miracles way? and strengths has been one of the The best tools are, by far and away the best tool for us to sometimes help the learner to dial back a little bit when they’re wanting to go too far into their strength when it’s not where the company’s going. But competition where I’ve seen that coming out with those girls is that they’re so staff meetings are amazing, but and the way that they they run competitions between their rooms, but that could be a really unhealthy thing that goes on very conscious of the way they did competition between there between the rooms in their center in a healthy way. And then that center does healthy competition with other centers as well, whenever we get together for big events, that sort of stuff. Black sounds very parochial, and they love to compete with everybody else. But they keep it healthy, and they’re very conscious of it and strengths has been helpful to help us think about that in a healthy way. If

Murray Guest  35:54

you’ve highlighted something to me without saying it, and I just wanted to throw this out there that strengths helps drive clarity. 100%. Yeah. And what I’m thinking is, as you’re saying about how different directors are going to lead through their strengths in a way that works best for them. And through that, combining that with, okay, but we also need to be clear around our expectations, and what is needs to be consistent. So it sort of partners beautifully with his driver of let’s make sure we’re really clear about some expectations as well.

Ben Bateman  36:26

Yes, a role clarity is extremely important for us. It’s something we had a, we’ve had a number of business coaches, and we’ve had one for over eight years. And then we got to a size that was beyond his experience. So we had another one, another business coach. And one of the things that he helped us do was bring clarity to every role from top to bottom in the business. And we’ve seen significant productivity improvements, but also relational improvements, too. Because if it’s clear, then we’re not going to have those frustrations with each other. So who’s responsible? Yeah. is a big one. And so your role clarity is a massive deal to us. But yeah, you within role clarity, we still want to have room for individuality, too. So individualization is half myself from our brother, who is the operations manager, for our general manager, who works alongside family. He has individualization that number three, I think. So, yeah, it’s a big deal to us that we have a lot of standardization. But then we have individualization alongside of that, where possible,

Murray Guest  37:43

yeah, great, great. Um, what else do you know has been really helpful to keep strengths alive and embed into little miracles.

Ben Bateman  37:56

So on doors, when you go into each room so that parents and staff can see the strengths as a photo, each team member has their top five strengths, and a little blurb about how the girls use their strengths in their role. So as a parent as you walk into the room, and before you even walk in, you can choose to look at that. The staff are saying that all the time, then inside the majority adoptees are finding out this isn’t rolled out everywhere. Yep, we have a tool called the best of us, is a strength tool. And that tool, which describes what people need, what frustrates them, what makes them tick. That’s my very loose version of

Murray Guest  38:40

what they bring and what they what you can count on from that page.

Ben Bateman  38:45

Yep. Thanks, man. Details. That’s actually on the inside of the cupboard doors. And so if a staff member is struggling with another team member, they can go to the sheet and have get a quick glimpse of how they can partner with that team. And better. casuals could use that too, as a way to go understand the people they’re working with. I don’t know if we utilize that tool as well as we could. But there are two tools that are front and center in yet. Yeah, every every center that we own.

Murray Guest  39:17

Yeah. And you combine that as you said with a strengths based process when people first joined the business about three months in the coaching you’re doing and into some of the meetings from my understanding as well some of the strengths based language and reference there as well. Yeah,

Ben Bateman  39:33

so, your language is a big one for us. So your strengths is talked about frequently. We do training days where we bring the whole company together. We do that once, sometimes twice a year. Every I get an opportunity at most of those to do some for development. And we will nearly always talk about some component of strength. So you know, we are always trying To bring strengths to the fore, and to make it a common language, that’s got to be something that we continually developing. We can’t just go Okay. Yes, everybody’s done their top five now, you’ve had the introduction session. Good luck. Yeah, if we want this to be common language, and we have to work hard to keep that at the forefront. So we, we do that. We have development channel, as part of our YouTube and on that I have a whole bunch of strings videos on there that I’ve shot with my staff. So that’s on there, they have access to that if they want as well. And make goals can be referred back to that. Um, yeah, I think they’re the main ways that Yeah,

Murray Guest  40:42

yeah, and it’s a combination, what I see there around leadership systems, and that environment, which, and, and the personal strength, space attitudes that people bring those, those four key areas to build a culture where you’re, you’re taking and moving through, which is just amazing to, it’s all those little things. And what I often say to clients is, it’s the little things that cost much to make the difference. And if you do those little things consistently, you build a culture.

Ben Bateman  41:10

Yeah. I’m incredibly fortunate that my parents, and then my siblings, or I’m really believe in strengths, all our partners have done strengths. We use it as a management team, we are all 100%, according to strengths and what it brings. So that makes a massive difference. So it’s from the top down, we believe in strengths. And we’ve seen it make a significant difference to our business. And so that then allows us to filter down, everybody knows it’s important. And then for me, I’ve worked really hard at doing the, I can’t catch 300 people, but I can coach 30. So in coaching 30 key leaders, if they’re if they are bought into strengths, and that for me, I believe means that I need to help them work with strengths that makes a difference in their, in their personal and professional life. If it does that, then they will buy in, and they will use it with their teams. So that’s how I use it strategically. Yeah, I worked really hard with our managers to make sure that they are utilizing strengths in their personal and professional life. And then from that, then they will use it with their teams.

Murray Guest  42:21

Yeah. And as you rightly put it, you’re not there day in day out by the latest they’re day in day out to have those conversations and bring it in into the culture. Something that I’m just also wondering, Ben, and that’s her and strengths based teaching. And is that a journey that little miracles are on is that sort of part of the vision going forward?

Ben Bateman  42:42

Yeah, it’s something we’ve explored a little bit. So we, as a company support a foundation in Bali called the bolo Foundation, which has an orphanage has a street center, and has a school. And one of the ways that we support biolife is, once a year, I go and work with international school teachers in Bali. And I do that by myself, we actually go with a number of primary school teachers from Australia, and some of our preschool educators as well. And we run workshops, to do a whole development for those staff. So we, the way we’ve used strengths there is really to help people understand their teaching style. The way I’ll use that sorry, is to help them understand their teaching style. And they help them understand try to help them understand students learning styles to that they have a way that they approach teaching. And children have a way that they approach approach, learning that strengths can really empower them to understand. Now that’s not a new concept. And there’s so many other ways they can approach that we’ve seen that as really beneficial. And that will be the way that we have used it so far, a little miracles, as well, that teachers understand they have a professional style, they have something that they bring, and also thinking about the children and the fact that they all have individual learning styles as well. So we use some other things around that. But that is one way that we’ve used strengths in that education space.

Murray Guest  44:27

And I think we’re combining that with the the openness of the teacher strengths for parents, that pages, then the parents will understand the different approaches of the different teachers and how they are working with the children and and from my memory, even then those conversations that teachers can have with parents around how the children’s strengths or learning styles are showing up.

Ben Bateman  44:52

Definitely, I said earlier that like 10% of our staff really embrace strengths and that really active strengths evangelists and strength spotters? Yep, so looking for strengths and other people. So that will be the other people will be the children, their teammates, and others. So those staff really are embracing it and looking at trying to spot the kids strengths and and reflect that back. For the majority of stuff, they’re probably not using it to that level. So while we try not to force things, too little miracles, the gods have so much on their plates, that strengths is part of strengths. And the way we mainly use it is for team building and development and performance. That’s strengths, main focus for us at little miracles. Can they use it for education? Yes, and some of them really do. But it’s not a focus for us. And part of it comes down to the fact that you have so much there’s so much on their plate, we try to be super conscious of only giving them tools that are going to be well, strengths is beneficial, but it’s not a necessary task.

Murray Guest  46:07

Yeah. And I guess what? Yeah, what I’ve experienced sometimes is where a tool like strengths people can start to get the blinkers on. And I’d like that that’s the answer for everything. Yeah. Whereas it’s the answer for lots of things like we’re talking about today. But let let’s not be blinding, you’re creating some potential blind spots of getting in the way of doing what you also need to do as well.

Ben Bateman  46:30

Yeah, for us. Because the girls do have a heavy workload, we’ve we’re highly regulated industry, and we’ve got a lot of education as well as care to be done. add an extra that is can become a burden. I I love what you just said in though, because part of my experience with any kind of coaches that sometimes they become that one wide, and think it is the answer to everything. I deeply appreciate that about you, Mary, that you’re not one liner, that strength, that you love it, you’re passionate about it, but it’s not the it’s not the fix everything. And we definitely approach that approach it that way at little miracles as well. It’s really good for some things. But it’s not going to help us with other things. Yeah, great. And we don’t want it to be a cure all. We have a few tools that we use. But what it does well, it does incredibly well.

Murray Guest  47:19

Yeah. Couple of last questions, just to help us wrap up, Ben, and thank you for sharing so much about the amazing work that you’re you’re doing little miracles. One of the questions I’m wondering is, what’s the future look like for little miracles.

Ben Bateman  47:39

I’d like to do a lot more development with our parents and with our staff community, for those people that really do want to go further with it. And then my brother Daniel, who is a head of operations, he has a lot of executing strengths. And he brings a lot of more of the systemization of things are thinks about approaches life, and accompany in that way, in us in a way that I just don’t. So one of things we’re looking at is pre Daniel becoming a coach at some stage in the future as well. So that he can look at the whole suite of tools that that Gallup offer, in the teaching they become a coach brings, and look at it through that lens, because I think they were missing some things because of my lack of talent, certain areas. And now, I feel bad about that by any stretch. But I want to we would love to get better. And one of the ways we can get better is that, like on on a well rounded coach, if we bring another coach on board, we can become well rounded together and be deliver better outcomes for our staff and families.

Murray Guest  48:44

And that’s that’s great awareness as a coach that how your strengths show up in the way you coach. And as I’m sure you’ve experienced, like I have, it’s often about the relationship. So what’s the relationship between the coach and the coachee? Like, and sometimes there’s someone that’s better for that person than you?

Ben Bateman  49:03

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful, man. I love individualization there. Yes. I think it’s super healthy, though. Yeah. Like you as a coach or not, and not the answer to everything either in strength line. Yeah, if you can understand that. And not be so egoic you’ll be a much better coach, you provide much better solutions and fear for people that you will so I was a very healthy thing. You’re doing that good brother.

Murray Guest  49:30

No worries, my friend. There’s some really good things that you’re also doing as little miracles. I know your mom released her book about a year ago or early this year, and you’ve got the enjoying parenting podcast, which is just fantastic. And you were talking before we started today, just about the ups and downs, the constructive destructive behaviors and the roller coaster parenting, which I love. So, I’m going to make sure to link to that podcast so people can listen to that and plus your YouTube channel that you mentioned, make sure we get that on there as well. And, of course, the website where you’ve just doing so many great things, and you’ve got some blogs and things on there as well. So, yeah. So to wrap us up, Ben, tell me what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Ben Bateman  50:15

spot energy. So for me, I think inspired energy is energy that brings inspiration to me, but also brings inspiration to others. So when I think about energy, I think about that flow, so taking people forward. So I want to have inspired energy, and I want to be inspired energy fathers. And that’s an energy that Yeah, is taking people into their, the fullness of who they are.

Murray Guest  50:51

And I think, as we’ve talked through the great work that you you, and your brother and your mum and dad, and everyone’s doing little miracles, you just explained inspired energy. By the way, you don’t just work with your staff. But they’re part of the team and their partners and the community. And that inspired energies report affecting everywhere. So I feel inspired. I’ve got my energy at the end of this conversation, the start. So that’s just awesome, mate. So you’re doing amazing work. And I’m sure that there’s all these little miracles lives that you’re changing through the work that you do. So thank you so much for sharing so openly, honestly, how you’ve embraced strengths, but how it’s part of the culture you’ve created. Really appreciate it.

Ben Bateman  51:39

Pleasure, mate. It’s great to talk to you. Thank you.

Murray Guest  51:42

Great to talk see on the mtn bike at some stage

Ben Bateman  51:46

can be seen.

Murray Guest  51:48

Thanks, Mate.

Episode 77 – Kristen Ulmer | Fear Expert

In this episode I chat with Kristen Ulmer, who is a thought leader on fear and anxiety. Kristen draws from her tenure as the most ‘fearless’ female extreme skier in the world, from intently studying Zen for 16 years and also from facilitating thousands of clients on flow and peak performance.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Kristin, welcome to the podcast. I’m actually really excited to talk to you today about fear, and how it shows up in all the different ways. And I loved getting to meet you two years ago in Bali. Man, it feels like so long ago. But I’m really keen to talk to you about it today. You’ve got such an important message. And just before we started recording, I started to talk a bit about what 2020 has been like, and this fear that’s in community in society at the moment. But before we get into that, how are you? And I hope you’re well and healthy today?

Kristen Ulmer  00:40

Well, the reason why you feel excited is because fear is an exciting topic. You mentioned the word fear, and people perk right up. I’m doing well. I’m in Salt Lake City, I’m healthy, going through divorce, which was unexpected, because I was very happily married. And so this is a strange time for me. And it’s definitely cracking me open towards greater learning and growing on the subject of fear than ever before. Which is that’s the that’s the bonus. All this shit in here, there must be a pony somewhere. That’s the pony for me.

Murray Guest  01:15

I like that analogy. Well, I haven’t heard that one. But yeah, I get that. And fear can show up in so many different ways. I’m sure it’s showing up in lots of different ways in your life right now, shows up my life in lots of different ways. So what are you tapping into right now from a fear perspective?

Kristen Ulmer  01:34

Well, it’s not that fear shows up in many different ways. It’s more that it shows up in many different places in our life. Fear is just fear, it’s very, very simple. It’s just a feeling of discomfort, it’s proven by science to first show up in the body. It comes from the amygdala, the the oldest part of the brain, it’s the manufacturing plant for fear and data is run through the amygdala. And if there’s a threat, it produces the feeling of discomfort called fear that’s supposed to lead to immediate, you know, physical reaction without thought. And, right now, this is a scary time for us all, actually, you know, just life is scary in general. And life has gotten scarier, not even, you know, even before COVID just because more happens in 24 minutes than used to happen in 24 years, like in our great grandparents era, there’s just so much going on and the amygdalas producing a lot of fear. And then now there’s COVID and some of us are fleeing COVID you know, fear is helping us flee it and sequestering at home. And some of us are fighting COVID, you know, the the fight or flight response, the scientists and the doctors and all that. And so we’re right on target with our fear response. And just added yet one more thing to be afraid of, in this crazy ride called life, this COVID thing is one more thing on the list.

Murray Guest  03:00

So just to help us all get on the same page, how do you define fear at its very simple, simplest definition.

Kristen Ulmer  03:06

People have a very complicated relationship with fear. And so we think of fear as being very complicated. But fear is actually very, very simple. It’s a emotion, a primary emotion, from which a lot of your human experience is created. And there’s been studies done, there are five basic primary emotions. And similar to three primary colors, red, yellow, and blue. The entire color spectrum is created like an infinite number of colors. There are also primary emotions from which the entire human experience is created. And these five are fear, anger, sadness, and those three are kind of considered the bad emotions. And then there’s joy, which is considered a good emotion. And then sexuality is actually labeled an emotion. I think that actually I prefer eroticism as the emotion and that includes the sexual but isn’t limited by it. And for some people, you know, eroticism or sexuality is considered good. And for some people, it’s considered bad. But these are the emotional experiences that form our lives as humans. And what we tend to do is we tend to want to create positive emotional experiences. And when we feel negative emotion, sadness, what do we do we apologize, we try to stop crying as fast as possible. We’re embarrassed by it. Anger, you know, anger management courses, or like, put a lid on it, you know, lock it in the basement, do not let that out. Fear, where some people are in denial of it. Some people avoid it. They don’t want to do anything scary. Some people fight it, they want to conquer, overcome it. So we have these incredibly complex relationships with the so called negative emotions. That makes them very complicated and fear is one of them. But fear, my definition of it, is just it’s a simple emotion, it’s just in our bodies, like I said, proven by science, a feeling of discomfort that leads to action. But then when things go wrong, all of a sudden you have fearful thoughts, and then your racing mind in the middle of the night, and you have phobias, and obsessive compulsive disorder, and PTSD, and depression and anxiety disorders. All of these are a result of the way that we subsequently treat that very simple fear response in our bodies. And most of us are trying to get rid of it. Like I said, ignore it, avoid it, etc, etc. And it’s like ignoring the truth about the human experience. And that’s what causes problems with fear and causing it to appear complex. But really, at its core, it’s a very simple emotion.

Murray Guest  05:52

So what I’m thinking about also is around that safety mechanism that we have to try and keep us safe. And that fear emotion is saying, hang on, the perspective that I’m giving you right now that you’re tapping into is that that is going to hurt you in some way. And so react to that, and it’s like, help me out here, but it’s like a future emotion. It’s like, I’m thinking about, as a human, that this thing in the future is going to hurt me in some way. So protect myself by fight flight freeze.

Kristen Ulmer  06:25

Right. And so what you’re referring to is just when people start to project in the future of things that they’re afraid of. You know, if people are in their heads around fear, you know, your body isn’t living in the future, it’s not living in the past, it’s just living in the moment. And so long as your fear response, you know, you’re just staying in your body and dealing with your emotions, emotionally, there’s no projection on the past or future or any of that. But the second, you start thinking about fear, and you’re in your head, and your head is always thinking about the past, projecting the future, you know, which is that also is a sign that something has gone wrong. And, I mean, there’s four basic ways that people deal with fear. And just as I outline these, you know, I want everybody to just notice which one are they, and I’m going to rank them from worse way to deal with fear, to the best way to deal with fear. The worst way to deal with fear – level one – is resistance to it. And don’t get too caught up on the word resistance, there’s many different ways to resist fear, but any kind of like, trying to get rid of it or denying it, probably the biggest form of resistance I see is being in your head, trying to understand it and think about it as a way to not have to feel it, like with a therapist or something. And then there’s acceptance, which is a step in the right direction, but it’s still kind of dealing with your emotions intellectually, like, Oh, you know, it is not a sign of personal weakness, it’s supposed to be here. Level three is where you start dealing with emotions emotionally, where you embrace it. And then level four is where you have intimacy with your emotion. And if you can learn to do level three and level four, then it’ll never wind up, fear will never wind up in your thoughts. And you’ll never be thinking about future fear or projecting, you know, thoughts into the future about things you might be afraid of. I’m like in relationships, for example, like, Oh, my gosh, I’ve met this guy, he’s really cute. But the last time, you know, I got in a relationship, it was a disaster, and I don’t want to fall in love with them. And then he could hurt me. And you know, next thing, you know, you’re in your head. That is usually the result of dealing with fear intellectually, and also being in resistance to it. And then it’s just going to persist and show up in wacky weird ways, as fearful thoughts.

Murray Guest  08:43

And even in that very quick example, I could picture someone’s mind jumping to the past, bring that emotional template framework around it, and then jumping to the future – what’s going to happen – as opposed to being in the present, and living in that emotion and embracing the emotion as you said.

Kristen Ulmer  08:59

Yeah, and let me just say, we’re starting off running like I’m introducing some really complex information like in the first five minutes of the podcast, I mean, we can simplify this and back way up if you want.

Murray Guest  09:16

Well, I’m loving this.

Kristen Ulmer  09:17

Going down this rabbithole. Like I said, I don’t expect people to really understand because there may be some missing pieces. But you know, it’s really interesting. Being a fear expert. It’s like I can just meet somebody. And when they start to say, Oh, yeah, this is my issue with fear. I’ll be like, Oh, yeah, I’ve seen it before. You know, that’s probably what’s happening.

Murray Guest  09:40

So let me just tap into something there. Why a fear expert? So obviously, there was the over 20 films that you’re a part of, and all these amazing jumps and experiences you had. At which point that how’d it lead you to going, you know what I’m going to really tap into and explore and help others around fear.

Kristen Ulmer  10:03

Being a professional skier was a very strange experience. I mean, it was very hedonistic. I had a massive ego trip. I mean, it was fun, fun, fun and dangerous and exciting and all of that. And I realized now, the whole time I was a professional skier, something felt off. Like I remember being on a chairlift at least five times looking at my skis saying, What am I doing? This is stupid. And, you know, I was the best in the world at a very dangerous, exciting sport. Nothing stupid about that from the outside looking in, but from the inside looking at them, like there’s, What is this? Why am i doing this, this doesn’t feel right. And I realized now that it was just part of my education, to be able to look at fear and anxiety from a new lens, from a different angle. You know, like be a fear and anxiety expert. My training didn’t come from a master’s degree or a PhD in college, I’m not like, kind of parroting things I learned from a professor or from another self help guru, like, I have come up with some really unique concepts and ideas that are actually the radical opposite of most of all of what’s out there. And I came to it just through 33 years now of just real life experience. You know, first, I mean, what is extreme skiing, it means that I was risking my life for a living, you know, the definition of extreme is the consequences of failure, and certainly in the context of extreme skiing, are death. And so I was making life or death decisions on a daily basis for 15 years, you know, dealing with a tremendous amount of fear, far more than the average public and I learned you don’t learn from experience, you learn from reflecting on the experience. I had enough of a curiosity sparked during those times, because I was considered fearless, to really reflect on those 15 years and figure out exactly what I did right by fear and what I did wrong by fear. And then studying is an approach to fear and then working with 10,000 clients now, like I have basically come up with exactly why people struggle with fear and anxiety and other people don’t. And what to do about it. That is currently not being taught by pretty much anyone. So this is, this is really new, super sexy information that comes from a, you know, from I mean, I’m, like, groomed by the universe for 33 years now to bring this message. And, and I see my ski career as just an education.

Murray Guest  12:40

Yeah, so I think, so my definition here that I thought I had as you’re talking about extreme skiing, or extreme sport, I think if the average person let’s just say anybody watches a sport and thinks, ‘I can do that’, that’s skiing, or that’s mountain biking, or that’s, you know, motorbike riding. But then when we add the word extreme to it, it’s like, straightaway, I can’t do that. I just, the average person can’t see themselves. So I watched a number of videos of what you were doing. I mean, the front flip in Wyoming. That was in Wyoming, wasn’t it? Yeah?

Kristen Ulmer  13:19

That was in Alaska.

Murray Guest  13:21

Yeah. And I, I’m, I’m watching that thinking, I hope she lands this. Of course, she lands it but I’m gonna hope she lands this and it’s just but it’s just magical, you know, landscape that you’re playing in as well. Like, just just beautiful as well. So this is popping into my head right now, how did you balance the ‘I’m appreciating this magical landscape, that’s just you know, that only I get to see and experience’, and at the same time thinking, ‘Oh, shit, this is pretty fearful stuff.’

Kristen Ulmer  13:52

Back in my ski career, I didn’t feel fear.

Murray Guest  13:56

Ah.

Kristen Ulmer  13:57

And as beautiful as the landscape was for me, that wasn’t the draw for me. For me, the draw was radical self expression. You know, yes, I noticed landscape, but it really wasn’t that big of a deal to me, you know, it was the self expression. I want to address if somebody feels fearless, like I did, what actually is going on. Like if they have a kid who seems to be fearless, you know, what’s the difference between that one kid versus the other kid that you know has a lot of fear. The difference is that that kid enjoys feeling fear, they’re not fearless. Neurochemically fear and excitement are exactly the same thing. And if you have, and I talked about the four levels, if you embrace fear, and if you have an intimate relationship with fear, it just feels like excitement and presence. It actually takes you into the zone and little else does, like extreme sports are notorious for taking people into the zone. It’s like you have to be in an altered state to survive some of these things, you know, and just be tapped into some intuition or instinct, because you know, you have to make instant reactions that will save your life or not save your life.

Murray Guest  15:13

So what’s the impact of calling someone fearless?

Kristen Ulmer  15:19

It sets our society up to live under an impossible ideal. Like, people would look at somebody like me and say, Oh, she’s fearless. I wasn’t fearless. You know, I was motivated by fear of not being special, fear of not being loved. That’s what had me do all these super sketchy things. The fear was the draw. I loved feeling fear, you know, I was addicted to it. It actually became an unhealthy addiction to me like a heroin addict. You know, I became a fear addict. And I mean that I was absolutely not fearless. It’s just that I, the part of me that became a world class athlete, I was having an intimate relationship with fear. And keep in mind, I have confirmed this with pretty much you name it, name the athlete I’ve talked to them. I interviewed 26 World Class professional, extreme athletes in the last year and a half for probably two hours each just on fear. And they didn’t even know that this is what was going on. But by the end of the couple of hours, they’re nodding their head so hard I thought their neck was gonna break like Alex Honnold who free solo’d El Capitan. Laird Hamilton, arguably the best big wave surfer in the world. What we are, we’re not fearless. And there’s a rumor going around that Alex Honnold had a damaged amygdala. That’s not the case. He thought that test that was done on him was not realistic and very stupid. What we are tapping into and make no mistake, this is not just with athletes, this is also with business men and women, people who you admire who are doing amazing things. What they are, is they’re having an intimate relationship with fear. And as a result, they come across as fearless. The people who come across as very, very fearful, actually, what they are, is they’re afraid of fear, which is different. Like they, they don’t want to feel fear, they are in resistance to it. And actually the awful feeling that we associate with fear, that’s not fear. Fear is actually I mean, it’s uncomfortable. But it’s, it feels more like excitement when you’re having an intimate relationship with it. The awful feeling we associate with fear is actually our resistance to feeling it. It’s I don’t want this I don’t want to feel this. What’s wrong with me? This is an awful feeling. It’s that resistance that feels so awful, not the fear itself.

Murray Guest  17:45

So at that resistance level, we’re fighting it, we’re pushing it away, or trying to run from it.

Kristen Ulmer  17:50

Right. And we’re actually taught to do this in our culture. Like, that’s where all the language comes from. You want to conquer and overcome fear. Well, look at that language triumph over it, it suggests a war, a mighty battle against this huge enemy. And that puts you at war with fear, which means it puts you at war with your own body, where the fear is, it puts you at war with the amygdala, you do not want to pick a fight with fear and you do not want to pick a fight with the amygdala, they will win every time.

Murray Guest  18:19

So fear’s good as well. And I’m not telling you, I’m just thinking this through.

Kristen Ulmer  18:26

Let me just adjust that before you move on. Fear’s not good ‘as well’. Fear is good, period. Like, I do not see good fear, bad fear. Like there’s good stuff, bad stuff about it. If you embrace fear, the good stuff is all you get. If you’re intimate with fear, it actually takes you into a spiritual place, an altered state, it’s a gorgeous experience. And the fear becomes one of the best parts of your life. If you are in resistance to fear, only the good stuff shows up. Like whatever your relationship is, with fear determines whether it’s like one of the best parts of your life or one or one of the worst parts of your life.

Murray Guest  19:07

For the listeners, how do they then determine where their relationship sits with fear?

Kristen Ulmer  19:15

I love that question. You know, I’ve done hundreds of podcasts, nobody has ever asked me that. That’s an excellent question. So how does one determine.. Well, you know, I bought a sat radio and went out to the mountains once, I bought it at REI, this is back in the 90s, the damn thing wouldn’t work. And I turned it on, it’s just static, just, you know, white noise. I brought it back to REI. I’m like, What the hell this thing didn’t work? And they said, Well, did you raise the antenna? I’m like, Ohh. It’s like our life is just static, like we can’t see or tell anything about what’s going on in our undercurrent unless we raise our antenna. And it used to be said that knowledge is power. But the guy who said that said that in like the late 1400s, when we also believe the world was flat, right? It’s kind of outdated. What’s more true in today’s world is that knowledge is power or awareness is power. And so it starts with just having an awareness practice, like, what’s my deal with fear? I mean, we are mostly living in denial about fear, like, we do not want to believe that fear is as big a part of our lives as it is. And actually, the amygdala is manufacturing fear all the time, it’s to the point where it’s actually with us every moment of every single day, in pretty much every interaction we have, I feel it right now. You know, because I’m aware of it. And, and so just becoming aware of the fear itself to start with, and then become aware of your relationship with that fear. Like I like to personify it, see it as a person in our lives, like a roommate that you live with all the time, like, what is my relationship with it? Am I in denial of this roommate? Do I ignore this roommate? Am I in a war with this roommate? Do I hate this roommate and wish he would go away? Like, just getting to know your relationship with fear is absolutely the crucial first step towards having a healthy relationship with it. Because you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge. You may think that fear is the problem. But you may actually learn by having an awareness practice that you are the problem, you’re actually picking a fight with fear. And then that leaves fear no choice but to retaliate. I mean, all gets revealed once you raise your antenna.

Murray Guest  21:35

Hmm, gotcha. And once taking the time to actually understand that relationship. And then let’s say I’ve realized, I’m actually resisting my feeling, I’m at level one. If there’s a simple technique to help me start to really accept my fear, to then move to that next level, what could I do?

Kristen Ulmer  22:01

The the first, well, it’s interesting how we’re just organically leaning towards my top three tips for people. The first tip is just become aware of your relationship with fear. The second Hot Tip is to change your language around how you talk about fear and less, view fear. And back to being a roommate, you know, if you’re used to saying, Oh, my gosh, fear is holding me back from doing the things I want to do. It’s not true. My unwillingness to feel fear is holding me back from doing the things I want to do. It’s like, okay, your fear is next to you. And your fear is only here to help. I’m going to say that, again, your fear is only here to help, like nature did not get this wrong. Fear is like the perfect design. Not only does it keep you safe, but it perks you up, makes you sharp, focused, helps you bring your A game to everything you do. It makes you feel alive. You know, it’s very exciting. If you’re ever bored, go and do something that scares you. And you’ll see, it’ll be the highlight of your day, maybe even of your year, like fear is only here as a resource, of source of motivation, all of that. It’s wonderful. And so, here you have this roommate, who’s like here to support you. And you’re like, you’re holding me back. It’s like, oh, wait a second. No, he’s not holding me back. I’m holding me back, because I’m unwilling to kind of see this roommate that I have is somebody that’s here to help me. So change your language about that roommate, like start talking about fear in a positive way.

Murray Guest  23:42

Our words shape our world, don’t they? Yeah, I totally agree.

Kristen Ulmer  23:48

Yeah, there’s just so much that comes from switching from a pessimistic or negative view of fear, to seeing fear as a positive and then changing the way you think about it and talk about it accordingly. It’s just like, you’d make that one simple shift. And you can’t even believe how much your life starts to become magic. You work through issues, scary things faster, like I’m going through a divorce right now. It’s a very dark, emotional time for me, a lot of fear, a lot of anger, a lot of sadness, you know, because I’m embracing it all. I’m in flow with it all. I’m moving through this difficult time much faster. I’m learning incredible lessons from it. You know, you don’t get stuck in a war with your own body and your own self. And it’s just, I don’t know, just having that kind of optimistic and positive view of fear will also get you taking more risks. You know, and then when you take the risks, like, ask me about Alex Honnold at some point, and I’ll tell you what we explored because I think that people are going to be very surprised by what he and I came up with is happening with him. 

Murray Guest  25:00

And can I just say if you haven’t watched free solo, it is such a fantastic documentary. I really enjoyed it. Well, it’s funny because as you were talking about the language and the words we use and how we describe our fear, I wondered if that was a theme that came out of your conversations with the athletes you’ve spoken to in the last 18 months? Did they consciously choose or were they consciously aware of how they describe their internal dialogue towards their fears? Or was that something that came out of some of those conversations?

Kristen Ulmer  25:38

What I found was, I interviewed 26 World Class extreme athletes, the best in the world at their sports, multiple sports. Similar to when I was going through my ski career, and people called me fearless. I believed my own hype. I felt fearless, I acted fearless. I wasn’t aware that fear was playing any part of my life. And I was also, you know, if you’d interviewed me when I was 24 years old, I would have had no clue what my relationship was with fear. And a lot of these athletes I interviewed who were in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, and they basically, they are the poster children, for people that do scary things with their life. And you think that they would have some sort of understanding of what their relationship was with fear. 23 of the 26 had no clue. Even when they were in their 50s, Alex Honnold had no clue what his relationship was with fear. And usually what they would start off the interview with would be just parroting stuff that they’ve heard from self help gurus, like, Oh, I don’t let fear get in my way, you know, I put it out of my mind, I’m, you know, I am able to conquer my fear. And so it doesn’t hold me back. Or, or they’ll say something like, I’m a scaredy cat. But I feel the fear and do it anyway. You know, like, the, the cliches were profound. It’s like, okay, everybody’s the same old, you know, that, that they’ve heard. But then I would say, Well, have you ever thought about it this way? And do you think that this might be going on? And what do you think about this? And, and I would, some of them, I would facilitate a conversation broker, that conversation between them and their fear. And, and one by one, we found out some similarities here that people were eventually were like, Oh, my gosh, that’s, I think that’s it. That’s it. That’s what’s going on. And that’s where I came up with the intimacy thing. And so Alex Honnold, you know, seemingly the poster child for what to do about fear. What we came up with is two things, basically. And so this is a great segue into that. He’s not fearless. And if he was fearless, he said he would have just tried to free solo El Capitan the first year he was in Yosemite, and in his words, he would have died for sure. Because we concurred that anybody that’s fearless just dies, you know, or perceives himself. And a lot of these extreme athletes do die. And most of the ones who die, walk around all cocky saying, Yeah, I’m not afraid of anything. You know that those people are super dangerous.

Murray Guest  28:17

Not just dangerous to themselves, but dangerous to the people around them as well.

Kristen Ulmer  28:21

Absolutely. Well put, and what was really going on with Alex, I mean, he spent 10 years before he free solo’d El Capitan, is that he is just willing to feel fear. He even enjoys feeling fear. And so he’s willing to step out of his comfort zone, where there exists fear. And so this is a podcast about business, it’s like, you know, the, the people who are willing to take risks and step out of their comfort zone, are also willing to have fear. Because where there’s risk, there’s fear. And so you, you know, like, imagine a circle, this is your comfort zone, you’re still gonna feel fear within your comfort zone. But if you’re willing to take on more fear, you’re willing to step out of your comfort zone. And you do that often enough, you know, put a dot outside your comfort zone, each time you take a risk, eventually connect the new dots, you have a bigger comfort zone. And so that’s what Alex did, every year is in Yosemite kept taking little risks, you know, the magical number is 4%, 4% out of your comfort zone, studied by science, right? Is the optimal flow state because then the fear takes you into a flow state, if you’re in flow with it, that is, if you’re intimate with it. And then so he just kept expanding his comfort zone bigger and bigger and bigger until the day he free solo’d El Cap. It wasn’t that big of a stretch for him to step out of his very expanded comfort zone and do what he did. And so that’s the secret of success with anyone who finds out their greatest potential. You don’t find out your greatest potential by just thinking about it. You find out your greatest potential by taking risks. So willingness to feel fear actually supports you figuring out what your greatest capabilities are. And so there’s a lot of people that are fear avoiders, which is a form of resistance to fear.

Murray Guest  30:12

Yep. Back to level one then.

Kristen Ulmer  30:14

Yeah, right, right. So willing to feel fear, embracing fear, you will take risks, you will step out of your comfort zone. And here’s the clincher with this, this is the bonus. Not only is there no learning and growing, without a willingness to feel fear, you know, because fear is very expensive for the body to manufacture. It requires a lot of energy, you actually support the amygdala and the body by expanding who you are, and and, you know, expanding your comfort zone, because then it doesn’t have to manufacture fear anymore. So here’s the conclusion of that – you cannot have less fear by controlling it. The only way you can have less fear is by taking risks, and expanding your comfort zone. And that comes from a willingness to feel fear. So the only way you can have less fear is found by a willingness to feel fear in the first place.

Murray Guest  31:11

That’s that’s gold, right there. Yeah, I love that.

Kristen Ulmer  31:15

Not just for business, anything, relationships, I mean, life, just finding out your greatest potential as a human being. And then while you’re out of your comfort zone, how do you deal with the fear? Well, you have an intimacy with it. And so it takes you into that altered state called flow or the zone. That was the second secret of Alex.

Murray Guest  31:34

Well, the thing I’m thinking about here, whether that’s what you were doing as an extreme skier, or Alex, free soloing El Capitan, that there’s it’s not like, as you said, this is bravado of just going in and doing it. And tell me if I’m wrong here. But the planning, the preparation, which actually sets for success. So I haven’t seen a video of you, because I haven’t watched all the videos of you and your preparation. But what I’m thinking about when I saw Alex, was all the preparation he did to make sure, yes, he’s embracing the fear. He’s intimate with it. And he knows how he can set himself for success. And the analogy I’m drawing here is, let’s say someone’s listening to this, and they’ve got to do a presentation. And they’re really fearful about that. Or they want to have a conversation with another leader within the business. And they’re fearful about that. It’s not like just pushing the fear aside and running in there. But there’s, How do I embrace that and actually prepare for success to actually achieve what I’m trying to do?

Kristen Ulmer  32:32

Right, it’s, it’s like, there’s two ways to deal with a speech, you know, or presentation or a job interview. You know, you’re slightly under prepared her or, anyway, anything that you’re going to do in business, you have two basic ways of dealing with it. And look at you as Batman and your fear as Robin. You could either punch Robin in the face, and feel powerful, and he’s laid out on the floor and just, you know, crumpled, and you go in there and you give the speech, right? And you think, ah ha! But guess what. Now, Robin’s pissed off, he’s gonna come back, and he’s gonna terrorize your life and seek vicious revenge, which is what fear does. The other thing is, you can bring Robin on stage with you, and you’re stronger together than apart. What that looks like, in practical terms, and this is gonna really shock some people. Because what most people do, if they’re about to give a speech, or have a difficult conversation, is the punching Robin in the face. And what that looks like is they rationalize fear away, there’s nothing to be afraid of, I’ve got this, I’m totally prepared. They take three deep breaths, they breathe in calm, they breathe out their fear. They just block it out by maybe cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, more positive, they replace it with something more positive. Like, all these things that we’re taught to do regarding fear, are just forms of resistance. And they work. They’re proven by science to work. In fact, scientifically, they work, they calm you down in about four minutes. And that’s why they’re taught. You know, that’s why everybody teaches this kind of thing. And they rationalize there’s nothing to be afraid of. It’s just false evidence appearing real. It’s just all in my head. That is absolutely not true. It is very scary to give a speech. So and then you start to distrust yourself. So there’s long term consequences of that. And there’s Carl Jung, whatever you resist persists. So yes, it works. But then the next time you give a speech, you have to do it for four and a half minutes. And then the next time it takes five minutes, and the next thing you know, you go home and you have an anxiety disorder, that seems unrelated. You’re like What’s up with this? I just had a panic attack or you’re picking fights with your wife. You know, because you haven’t dealt with your fear at work, and you’re just kind of throwing it at her when you get home, or you can’t sleep, you have insomnia because you didn’t deal with your fear during the day. It gets very clever. It hijacks your mind in the middle of the night when you’re trying to sleep and runs its agenda in your thoughts in the middle of the night, or you have PTSD from giving the speech, on and on. I mean, you eventually wind up with some form of weird depression or anxiety disorder. It’s like, next thing you know, there’s some part of your life that just doesn’t make sense. So that’s the first choice. You know, that’s the punching Robin in the face. The second choice is what I teach is a four step process of I mean, I feel like I’ve been talking for a long time. Do you have any questions before I move on to that? 

Murray Guest  35:47

No this is great. I’d love to. Well, the second choice is bringing Robin on stage.

Kristen Ulmer  35:51

Yeah. And it’s a little more nuanced than that. It’s more about honoring Robin. So that Robin isn’t hysterical. You know?

Murray Guest  36:01

Yeah. I’m seeing old Batman TV show here with a POW and a Wham. And that’s what I’m seeing.

Kristen Ulmer  36:11

Yeah, but usually they’re fighting enemies you know. Fear’s not an enemy, fear’s your Robin. So it’s how you treat Robin. How I deal with fear, when I’m about to give a speech is I go find, of course, I’m always super nervous before I go on stage and the word anxiety, nerves, worry, are just other names for fear. You know, we don’t like to call it fear anymore. We call it anxiety. Like nobody calls it fear. Like the guy on Wall Street, he’s like, Oh, my gosh, I’m pickled in anxiety. And we’re like, oh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But if he says, Oh, I’m pickled in fear, they’re like, Oh, my gosh, what’s wrong with you?

Murray Guest  36:49

Yeah.

Kristen Ulmer  36:50

It’s the same exact thing! Specifically anxiety is recirculating fear that’s stuck in your body. And it’s there because you’ve blocked fear from being in flow, and it’s stuck in your body and recirculating.

Murray Guest  37:04

Can I just say, and the bit that you said before, which I absolutely loved, and I want to make sure that people didn’t miss it is, if we push it aside, we don’t discuss it, we don’t embrace it. We don’t, you know, welcome it in some area, it’s going to show up and recycle and get, you know, like a volcano and show up in some other way in our life. And I think it’s so powerful.

Kristen Ulmer  37:29

It could show up as anger issues too, like, classic example is somebody that, like a kid that has a really scary home life. And fear makes him feel powerless, but he has to feel something. And so he feels anger instead. Because it makes him feel powerful. But fear and anger are very closely tied. In fact, when I mentioned getting the primary emotions, in some studies, anger isn’t even a primary emotion. Anger is mostly made up of fear. So yeah, like for for fight, it’s anger, for flee, it’s fear. Yeah, so anyway, it’s just God, it’s such a bad idea to resist fear. And yet, every single self help guru or psychologist or doctor will help you do that. Cause it works. Right.

Murray Guest  38:24

Yeah, but I think the bit that you’ve you’ve very clearly articulated is it works for a period of time, for a moment in time.

Kristen Ulmer  38:31

Yeah right. Right. And then, of course, people ultimately medicate their fear away. And 20 to 40% of their aliveness in the process.

Murray Guest  38:41

I have a question. Do you think you would have done anything differently when you were extreme skiing, if you knew what you know now, back then.

Kristen Ulmer  38:56

Yes, absolutely. And just bookmark the four steps. I will say that the reason why I know all this is because I did some things right by fear. And I did some things wrong by fear during my ski career. And what I’m explaining, you know, that people do wrong by fear I myself did. I was one of those really clueless, stupid athletes that walked around all cocky and arrogant, saying, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m lucky to be alive. I also burned out. You know, I thought I burnt out on the skiing but really, I burnt out on how much effort and energy it took me to block out fear, a tremendous amount of fear and I I crashed my adrenals, I wound up also having PTSD because I saw a lot of friends die and didn’t know how to handle the emotions there for my ski career. Another thing is I became such a rigid person in order to not feel fear and after about 10 years, like I was just in a sport as violent as extreme skiing, you need to be more slinky-like, and like we look at ski racers, for example, and they’re in their 30s. And they start having an injury after injury after injury. What is that? It’s not because they’re getting older. It’s because they’re very rigid in order to be quote, fearless, and you throw a tin can against a brick wall, it’s gonna break, right? Yeah, you throw a slinky against a brick wall, it’s gonna be just fine. They just become so rigid that the slightest, you know, issue, you break. So I had a lot of injuries. And it almost got to the point where every time I went skiing, and I did something difficult or dangerous, that required an impact, I wound up having at least a little injury from it. Not because of my age, but because of my compromised relationship with fear. But the things that I did right by fear is what made me a world class athlete in an incredibly difficult sport. So I had a real paradox going on, I both radically did what should be done regarding fear. And that’s what made me so great. And I radically did what shouldn’t be done regarding fear. And that’s what caused a lot of problems for me. And when I retired, I set to figure out what the heck had gone wrong. And that’s what led me to the conclusions that I’ve come up with today that have been tried and true with, you know, a lot of like, probably 10,000 people now. So.

Murray Guest  41:22

Yeah, and as you’ve said a number of times, and I totally agree, this is a human thing. It’s not an athlete thing.

Kristen Ulmer  41:29

Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, look at the statistics of anxiety disorders. They’re, they’re only getting worse and worse and worse, despite all these methods and modalities, you know, to punch Robin in the face, like, we’re only getting more and more afraid we’re only having greater anxiety, greater depression, greater PTSD. It’s like, one in five people in America have an anxiety disorder. One in four Europeans struggle with either anxiety or depression. Like it’s crazy. And the numbers are just getting worse every year. Despite all these meditation apps and breathing exercises and cognitive behavioral therapy, it’s not working. Right? Let me tell you what does work though.

Murray Guest  42:14

So I’m on stage with, I’m Batman, I’ve got Robin, I haven’t punched him. You know, we’re a partnership. What am I doing next?

Kristen Ulmer  42:26

Okay, so let’s back up. I was recently asked to give a speech, and it was in front of 10,000 people, it was last weekend. And it’s a lot of people. It’s very scary. And for me, I’m on the phone, they’re like, do you want to do this? They’re gonna pay me a lot of money. And I thought, well, the question isn’t, you know, do I want to do this, or make that kind of money? The question is, am I in the mood for fear right now? A lot of fear, because it’s going to be super scary. And the answer was..

Murray Guest  42:58

Can I just pause, because there’s a really good lesson here, which is, it’s not like tick, I’m done with fear. Because here I am talking to you. And you’re very open and vulnerable that it is an ongoing conversation relationship. And I think that’s really important that people don’t look at you or someone else and go, Oh they’ve got it sorted, they’re done. And I think this is really important that it’s actually an ongoing, help me if I’m getting this incorrectly, but it’s an ongoing relationship with our fear. And that ongoing self awareness.

Kristen Ulmer  43:31

Yes. And, you know, when my book came out three years ago, I googled it, you know, people that are fear experts anxiety, you know, fear. Everybody has an opinion about what to do about fear, but nobody on the planet that I could find anywhere. I mean, I spent days searching, was willing to call themself a fear expert. And why is that? Because I think that we expect our fear experts to a) be fearless and b) teach other people how to be fearless. It’s impossible. And it’s undesirable. Nobody’s willing to claim that they’re fearless. That’s just, you know, ridiculous. So yes, I’m a fear and anxiety expert. And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, this is gonna be terrifying. 10,000 people. And, and it’s way out of my comfort zone. Like the most i’d spoken to was 1500 people when I got the phone call. So then I hang up the phone. And I said, Yes, of course. Because feeling fear is my thing, right?

Murray Guest  44:29

Yes.

Kristen Ulmer  44:30

I’m not a fear avoider. I embrace fear. I know that it’s gonna expand who I am as a person. And I figured, okay, either I’ll do a great speech, and then I’ll feel amazing afterwards, and feel the cortisol high and all of that. And I’ll have felt connection to the audience and gotten my message out there. Or I’ll crash and burn. Right, humiliate myself and have another growth opportunity to know what not to do next time. So either way, it’s a win. So I say yes. And then I have three months with fear just nagging me, you know, Robin’s like, Hey, you better stop watching Netflix, you better get your butt off the couch and write that speech and memorize that speech, or else you’re going to be really embarrassed. So it motivates me, you know, there’s a saying in Zen, a good horse moves even the crack of a whip. So it was like cracking me like you got to get off your butt. So then I prepared, prepared, prepared, and I like to be just a little underprepared the day of so that the fear can be with me to help keep me sharp and focused. If I have the speech to memorize, I just blank out and just blah blah blah, right, and repeat it like a robot. So the fear, I know it’s going to keep me sharp and focused and on point when I give the talk. So I’m a little underprepared. So it’s 10 minutes before I’m going to go on, last weekend. And I’m terrified. I’m shaking, you know, I’m about to talk about fear and anxiety, and I’m practically having a panic attack. So this is what I did. And I went and found a quiet place to be by myself. And I did four steps, I closed my eyes, and I acknowledged that it’s normal and natural for me to feel fear. Of course, I feel fear, you know, I’m about to give a speech. It’s not a sign of personal weakness, it’s not a character flaw. It’s just a sign that I’m human. And that’s the acceptance part. You know, the second step is I found the fear in my body, like, Where was it, it was in my chest and in my throat. And I put my hand on it, and I noticed how strong it is. And then the third step is I then looked into whether I was in resistance to this fear. You know, I don’t after teaching what I teach for a really long time, I’m very rarely in resistance to my fear anymore. But certainly when I was just putting these concepts together, I was still in resistance to it. I didn’t want to feel it. And the resistance actually is the awful feeling, not the fear itself. So I then notice, am I in resistance to this fear? And what if it was there, what it would look like is I don’t want to feel this, I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to be here. This sucks. I hate this feeling. I hate this feeling. You know, it involves thoughts, but it wasn’t there, right. But you want to check in on the resistance, because you want to have that antenna up, you want to have that awareness. Suffering equals discomfort times resistance, if your discomfort of fear is a level 10. And your resistance is a level 10. 10 times 10. That’s a whole lot of suffering. But if your discomfort is a level 10, which you’re going to feel innately you know, and your resistance, which is, you know, is taught in our culture. Let’s say you get it from a 10 down to a one, what’s 10 times one, not a lot of suffering, you get the resistance down to a zero, there’s no suffering. And it’s that way with anything hot, cold… Wim Hof, like, you don’t resist the cold, it takes you into an altered state. You go into a sweat lodge, you don’t resist the heat, it takes you into an altered state. With fear, if you don’t resist the fear, it takes you into an altered state. Same with pain. That’s the reason why people love getting tattoos, half of them, they don’t resist the pain, it takes them into, like any kind of lack of resistance. It just takes you into a flow state. And then level four. And this is where the science comes in. I mentioned before that if you rationalize it away, you know, if you take breathing exercises, the fear calms down in four minutes. If you do step four, it’s been proven by science, the fear calms down in four seconds. And there’s no long term effects. Which is level four or step four. I just had an intimate experience with my fear. So I just put my hand on my chest where the fear was, and I just had kind of a like, put the Barry White on, right. It’s not sexual. You hear intimacy. It’s more like, like, have you ever had an intimate experience with a piece of cheesecake?

Murray Guest  49:12

Oh, yeah. Yeah, blueberry cheesecake.

Kristen Ulmer  49:16

Oh, yeah. So imagine putting your hand on wherever your fear is and having an intimate experience with that fear. And it calms right down. And anyone that has a child, if their child’s upset and has a lot to say, if you just spend some quality time with them, and just completely love on them. They always calm right down. It’s the same with your fear. And then I went on stage and I was very reasonable and Robin was there with me to keep me sharp and focused because I was a little underprepared and he wasn’t screaming or yelling, and it was a really beautiful practice.

Murray Guest  49:54

Yeah, well, and I’m sure you knocked it out of the park. The bit that I think I also take from that, as you said that underprepared bit is that level of underprepared keeps you on your toes, keeps you focused, keeps you aware. Keeps you curious, I would say.

Kristen Ulmer  50:09

And why is that, is the question. Well, because the fear is the very thing, that little extra drop of fear. It’s like the secret sauce to great performance.

Murray Guest  50:24

Wow, this has been so good. Thank you. This is awesome. And those four tips, those four tips, I think, whatever you are facing as a person in your life right now, I’ve got a mountain bike trail that I go to regularly and as you know, I ride, still. And there’s a name of this part of the trail called ‘the drop off’. That name, when I hear it, I can feel it in my gut straightaway. I’m like, it’s the drop off. And I’ve seen someone go over the handlebars down the drop off. And so I can now have a better way to approach the drop off, which I’ve been avoiding every time I get there. There’s the A line, there’s the B line. We want to take the A line. But you know, I’ll be taking the B line now. So how do I now prepare myself and actually stop future projecting myself into that situation? And and pushing the fear? As opposed to right, how do I prepare myself and be having an intimate relationship to where I feel that fear in my guts. I’ll get back to you on that one.

Kristen Ulmer  51:35

Okay, well, I’ll just real quick, you know, like anything, it takes practice, do the four steps before you go out on the mountain bike trail. So that you’re prepared.

Murray Guest  51:44

Yeah. But as you talked us through that journey of your presentation, this is a four step process you could apply to a difficult conversation or presentation. You know, facilitating a discussion in a meeting, you know, the list could go on. Because any of those situations, because I think, here’s a part that I think that I think you’ve mentioned, but I just want to make sure that we sort of mentioned it in that is that the level of fear that someone feels no matter what they’re doing, it’s their level of fear. It’s not, I’ve got to feel the same level of fear as someone else. Like it’s a very unique and personal thing, isn’t it?

Kristen Ulmer  52:26

It is and it isn’t. You know, other people are just really good at pretending they don’t feel fear. Like I think that I think that everyone comes with a basic kind of general comfort zone. Like Alex probably started with a bigger comfort zone than most and other people are, you know, maybe innately born to be more fear avoidant. But I think that pretty much all of us feel fear every moment of every single day in nearly every interaction we have. And there’s no exceptions to that. There’s one woman that had a damaged amygdala. And they were worried she wasn’t going to live for very long, like, imagine an animal that had no fear response, out on a freeway, like they don’t live very long. So no, we’re we’re all, like, if you’re ever wondering if you feel more fear than other people, I don’t think you are. You know, it’s all determined by how we deal with the fear. That makes all the difference in the world.

Murray Guest  53:26

Yeah. I’ve just thought of something. I’m gonna throw this out there. Have you seen the new trailer for the new Dune movie that’s coming out?

Kristen Ulmer  53:35

I haven’t.

Murray Guest  53:37

So I haven’t read the book. But my wife tells me I need to read the book. There’s a statement at the end of the movie, which is fear is the mind killer.

Kristen Ulmer  53:49

The writer of Dune is one of my, I mean, his quotes about fear are my least favorite. Almost.

Murray Guest  53:56

Yeah, and I’m just thinking, and I’m taking this way out of context, but I’m wondering what the intent of that is.

Kristen Ulmer  54:05

It’s just wrapped up in the same message that everybody is saying out there that fear is the enemy. I would modify. I’m really good at modifying quotes. I would modify that quote to say the unwillingness to feel fear is the soul killer. Or let me try it. Let me see. Thinking about fear rather than feeling it will kill your mind. I don’t like that one. 

Murray Guest  54:37

I like the first one. Yeah, that was good. That was good.

Kristen Ulmer  54:43

Yeah.

Murray Guest  54:44

So to wrap this up, I got a couple of last questions to ask and I asked some people this question and you’ve reminded me of the power of getting our message out because you’ve got so much to share. If I gave you a billboard on the side of the freeway that everyone’s going to drive past and see, everyone in the world, all 7 billion of us going to see this billboard. What’s your message on that billboard? Let’s just think we can travel by the way, because right now travel is a bit of a difficult thing, but you know.

Kristen Ulmer  55:25

Resist well, geez, your relationship with fear is the most important relationship of your life. So make sure it’s a great one.

Murray Guest  55:35

Love that. Love that. Yeah, I think, and I heard that from you in Bali, and that has stuck with me. And that I think takes us full circle with what we’ve talked about today around how important that self awareness is and how your relationship is, and we’re not punching our fear in the face. But you know, or that roommate of fear. But yeah, having that healthy relationship. Yeah.

Kristen Ulmer  56:00

And maybe the where we can leave it too because it we’re in times of COVID right now, right now, it’s really, really clear what people’s relationships with fear are. Like the people that ignore fear, ignore the Coronavirus. It’s like, it’s really becoming clear, like I can see everywhere what people’s relationship is with fear, if they’re, you know, resistance like I said, comes in many different forms. And the most common ways that I see people deal with fear or not deal with fear, are, they ignore it, they avoid it, they run away from it. Like one of the current techniques that people do, you know, to deal with anxiety or fear is they exercise a lot, you know, or go do yoga. And they see it as a way to deal with their fear. But I see it as their way for them to continue to not deal with fear, because then it makes their life tolerable, so that they, you know, can get by it’s like they get by another, I actually have a couple of friends that have to exercise like four or five times a day, you know, like four or five hours a day just to be able to sleep at night. They’re just, it’s just, it’s not helping them, it’s actually giving them just a band aid so that they don’t ultimately ever deal with the issue at hand, which is they’re not dealing with their fear in an honest way. And so right now, because it’s scary time, and we have the time like this would be a perfect opportunity to start a fear practice, and learn how to be intimate with your fear, and even just spend a moment to just be honest about how afraid you are of getting the Coronavirus. It’s not even the deaths, but it does incredible damage to your brain and your lungs and your taste buds like and on and on. It’s just, also somebody who’s losing their business that they’ve developed for 30 years, like, it’s a super scary time for them, can they just sit with their fear, instead of trying to drink it away or, like can we all just take a moment now that we have a pause, to learn how to find our fear in our bodies, notice if we’re resisting it, touch that spot and maybe not resist it this time, but embrace it, like give it a hug. Give it some love. If you learn how to love your fear, it’s self love practice, you know at its finest, and then learn how to be intimate with it. It’s like being intimate with the nature of life itself. And then just see what where that river takes you like, just be in flow with it. Until drop by drop by drop, you become a mighty river.

Murray Guest  58:40

Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, for your wisdom, for your your vulnerability of just your journey of understanding and exploring and helping us understand fear. And I’ll make sure there’s a link to your book, The Art of Fear, why conquering fear won’t work and what to do instead. Because it’s a fantastic book, and I’ll make sure there’s a link in that in our notes so people can check that out as well. It’s been so, so inspiring to have this conversation. So thank you Kristen, for your time. I do need to ask you, as this is the inspired energy podcast, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Kristen Ulmer  59:26

Well, if I were to keep on theme, the day that I am no longer interested in saying yes to scary things is the day that I lose my inspiration. It’s like fear is energy in motion. And by choosing to do things that scare me. It creates a lot of energy for me and it inspires me and it helps me expand to my greatest potential. And so the tie in for inspired energy and fear, it’s not at the denial of fear. It’s the inclusion of fear and you’ll find your greatest energy and your greatest inspiration.

Murray Guest  1:00:14

I think that’s going near, well, the top of the list of definitions. Thank you so much. Love it. Love it.

Kristen Ulmer  1:00:20

Last thing. I have a free fear and anxiety assessment on my website KristenUlmer.com. And if people want to start raising their antenna, it’s totally free. It’s 20 really fascinating questions and you can find out what your unique relationship is with fear that you may not be aware of.

Murray Guest  1:00:38

So I’ll make sure there’s a link to that because that is awesome. Also, the book plus also you run ski camps, the art of fear ski camps in Utah. So I hope that with all COVID and what’s happening and moving forward, you’re still getting to do those in the in the near future.

Kristen Ulmer  1:00:58

I am with safety precautions in place, of course.

Murray Guest  1:01:01

Yeah. Great. So I’ll make sure that’s all linked in our show notes for people to check all that out. And honestly, if you’ve got something from this conversation, as you’re listening to this, please make sure you tag Kristen and myself on social media and share that. And if you didn’t get something out of this, you weren’t listening. There was so much gold. What Kristen had to share. So thank you again so much. I really appreciate your time, your knowledge and your openness for all that you are doing to help us reframe and understand fear better.

Kristen Ulmer  1:01:33

Thank you, Murray.

Episode 76 – Elena Pastore | Strengths-based Coach & Contractor

In this episode I chat with Elena Pastore, an aspiring strengths coach who has a passion for people development. Her current roles in marketing and business helps people understand their areas of strength and inhabit a growth mindset.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Elena, welcome to the podcast. Look forward to chatting with you. It’s great getting to know you already, we’ve been having some good conversations. It is October 2020. How are you?

Elena Pastore  00:14

I’m doing pretty great. How are you?

Murray Guest  00:16

Yeah, I’m really good. I’m happy to say myself, my family are all healthy. COVID has obviously been on the conscious of everybody. I hope you’ve been healthy this year, and everyone in your life as well.

Elena Pastore  00:32

Yep. So far, we’re all doing well. So all good here.

Murray Guest  00:36

Good to hear. Good to hear. And what time is it for you? Because for me, it’s, you know, lunchtime here. What about yourself?

Elena Pastore  00:43

It’s 9pm here on the east coast of the US.

Murray Guest  00:48

Okay, so I’m normally heading to bed about nine o’clock, I get up at five. I hope that you’re okay for us to have this chat today.

Elena Pastore  00:56

Of course.

Murray Guest  00:58

So I was introduced to you through a fellow strengths coach. And I know that you’re passionate about strengths like Charlotte and myself are. Tell me what got you into this focus on strengths? How did that all come about?

Elena Pastore  01:14

Yeah, so when I was in my second year of college, I had to take Strengthsfinder as part of an assessment for a class I was in. And we all took the assessment and then had one person come in and talk to the class about a few different strengths, and you know, just a short spiel about them. And that was it. And, you know, as we all know, coaching doesn’t start and end with one presentation. It’s a continuous learning experience. So I was very intrigued by it, took it upon myself to learn more about my top five and learn more just about other strengths that interested me and and I’ve just always been engaging in opportunities to learn more about strengths and more about myself.

Murray Guest  02:02

And when you first got to know your top five, how did you feel when you saw those? Did they connect with you straightaway? Or did that take a bit of time?

Elena Pastore  02:13

Yeah, so it definitely wasn’t super intuitive as to what everything meant. So my number two is Woo. And I was like, what does that mean? Like, whoo, like, Yay?? How is that a strength, you know, and then I realized it stood for winning others over and read the description. I said, Okay, this makes sense. So, my top five are Includer, Woo, Connectedness, Belief and Responsibility, and especially Belief and Connectedness, which I think are a little bit more intangible, took me a little bit more time to really understand. But once I was able to sort of teach myself, ask others for help, I certainly do think they all resonate with me very well.

Murray Guest  02:57

Yeah. And how did they help you when you’re at college? So I know in the US in a number of colleges and universities, there’s a strong strengths based approach. How do they help you by unpacking this strengths based approach whilst you’re at college?

Elena Pastore  03:16

Yeah, so like I said, the class that I was in, we just had one presentation, and nothing more. So if you are interested in it, it was kind of up to you to do that. So I guess, just reflecting on what my top five were, and thinking about where I saw them come into play. And then of course, anytime something is the forefront of your mind, you’re constantly thinking about it, you’re going to recognize it come up in places constantly. And my college experience was very much guided by making my own rules and making my own decisions. So I very much pursued and was involved and engaged with things that I liked and that I enjoyed. Ironically, the class schedule for business majors is pretty much almost 100% virtual even during non-COVID times. So you really get to shape your day to day life, based on what you want. And for me, my day to day life was definitely centered around my strengths, but I didn’t realize it at the time, because I didn’t know what to call that. I’m definitely leading high in Woo, because I love meeting new people, I think you can always learn from them. And that definitely sprung me into a lot of involvement in engaging with a lot of different student organizations and meeting new people and things like that just as an example.

Murray Guest  04:43

Yeah, and I’ve been helping people understand their strengths for about the past six years, and Woo can be one of those strengths and talents which people don’t quite understand or see as a negative. You said it helps you meet people and connect with people. Is there any situations you’re happy to share, where it’s like, I know I tapped into my Woo. And it really helped me.

Elena Pastore  05:10

It’s hard to pinpoint one specific thing, because I just feel like it’s always present. I don’t know. It’s just, I don’t know, I guess. I guess a vague example would be when I meet people, I try to figure out how I can relate to them. And I think that’s also my Includer speaking, I think it’s the two of them working together. It’s meeting people, being friendly, making them feel comfortable. What do we have in common? What experiences can I share with this person or with this group? And so I think I’m good in getting to know you or meeting people for the first time settings, because I lead with those two strengths. And they’re very people oriented and, you know, just wanting to make people feel good.

Murray Guest  06:04

Yeah, I can hear you describing how they can feed off each other quite well. I want to make sure people feel included, I want to make sure that they feel connected. And at the same time, I want to really get to know you, I want to connect with you quickly as well. Can I ask, did you in your understanding of these strengths, see how they showed up for you earlier in life as well? Is this something that’s been part of you for, you know, through your school years and younger years as well.

Elena Pastore  06:34

Certainly responsibility, because I was always the kid that would remind the teacher that they didn’t collect the homework in class, and everyone hated me for it. But I said, if I did this homework, and I spent the time to get it done, I want to make sure I get the credit for it. It’s not my fault if other kids didn’t do their homework. So I definitely was that student a couple of times in my childhood, so that’s definitely my Responsibility. The Woo I think I definitely developed in my adolescence, I used to be very shy as a kid and not wanting to put myself in situations where I didn’t know people or meeting new people. It was frightening to me. So I think definitely, in my adolescence, I developed that. I don’t know what I would say.

Murray Guest  07:26

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, I understand. I have Responsibility number five, like you. And I see that as that sort of foundation strength, just my way of showing up and serving people. I’m also very aware of the blind spots that can have for me, or those basement descriptions where I can take on too much or can’t let things go. Interestingly, we’ve been having a resurgence of playing Uno. But we’ve been having these conversations about what’s the correct rules. And for me, I can see my responsibility showing up that we’ve got to follow the rules, you can’t put a draw to on a draw to, you know, that’s just the rules. And then my father in law and I have had some conversations about what he thinks are the right rules. I’m like, No, the rules say this. Does that play out for you as well, some of that responsibility like that?

Elena Pastore  08:26

Um, I’ve taken a couple of other, you know, personality type assessments. And I don’t remember what this one was called. But there was a portion where it asked about, are you a rule breaker or rule follower, but then it gave contingencies based on, Well, if you were in this situation, would you break the rule, if it’s, you know, enticing, or it seems like more ethical to break the rule because of whatever the outcome would be. So I definitely follow the rules for homework and for things that are, I guess, seen as more objective in my eyes, but the things that are maybe more subjective or that I think the risk is worth breaking the rule or the risk is worth doing that thing that you don’t know how it’s going to turn out, then I always want to pursue what I think is right, or what I think will be the best for whoever’s involved. And I think the doing what’s right part of it is my belief.

Murray Guest  09:29

Yeah, I’m just thinking about some beliefs and values coming out there as well for you.

Elena Pastore  09:33

Yeah.

Murray Guest  09:36

Yeah but just to clarify, can you put a draw to on a draw to in Uno?

Elena Pastore  09:44

Oh, I didn’t realize you’re asking about the game. I’ve never played that game. I know what it is. I’ve just never played.

Murray Guest  09:50

I’m shocked! I thought it was a universal game. We’ve all played it.

Elena Pastore  09:53

It is. Yes, it is. I’ve just never played it.

Murray Guest  09:57

You’re gonna have to come back to me on that one. Okay, so tell me what are you doing these days, work wise? And what’s taking up your time?

Elena Pastore  10:10

Yeah, so I am involved in three different work, segments, gigs, whatever you want to call them, that I really love all of them. And the first, that I spend the most time in, is I work with a startup. And it is a technology startup out of Gainesville, Florida, which is where the University of Florida is. And it is, we have a web based application that is designed to help students develop their soft skills. So communication, leadership, all that great stuff that you and I all know is important for students to, to develop, to implement in their careers and in their lives. So that’s the first thing. And the second thing is I do copywriting on strengths for an organization that does strengths coaching. I really love, I really love writing. So I write blogs on strengths and just blogs on other topics centered around leadership and how to be a coach. And I’m also helping an old professor from my university that wants to write a book. And he was a very, very successful entrepreneur of a technology company. And he wants to make a book out of his business best practices and lessons. So I’m helping him to organize and collaborate on that.

Murray Guest  11:39

Fantastic. I love that app that you’re helping that technology company develop, as you said, those soft skills, which links is something which I know that you’re passionate about, too. And that’s the education system and what it is that people actually learning and their skills that they’re developing. How would you describe the education system at the moment, in the US particularly?

Elena Pastore  12:02

Yeah, so I unfortunately don’t know too much about the rest of the world to compare. But in the US, it’s very antiquated. You’ll frequently hear students, parents, everyone talk about, you know, school teaches you, y equals mx plus b school teaches you the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. But school doesn’t teach you how to do taxes, how to be a good person, how to be a leader, and all of these other skills that you do need to learn at some point in your life, because it’s just a part of something that everyone needs to do. And you wonder, how do people learn these things? Or do they even learn them at all. And in some cases, people go far too long in their lives before they do develop some of those skills and learn some of those things they should have learned a long time ago. And so, the work with this technology company that I mentioned, our goal is to help students, or provide students with the tools that enable them to learn more about these things. You know, there’s studies that have been done and metrics out there that talk about how the most successful, doesn’t even have to be an employee, the most successful people are the ones that are emotionally intelligent, are the ones that are self aware, are the ones that know how to communicate, and it’s just not being done in schools in the US. You know, and everyone has worked with people that you can see they don’t have these skills, and it’s just, you know, everyone just everyone needs to learn them. So I hope some other parts of the world are doing better.

Murray Guest  13:58

Yeah, well, I think it’s one of those things which has been done in some areas that I’ve heard about in pockets that have been doing well, where there is that investment in that EQ and that self awareness, but it’s not consistent. It’s not to anywhere near the depth that I think that you and I both agree needs to happen. That the app that your client’s working on, the students that’s going to be for, at what level are you hoping that that’s going to be available? Is it for like school aged, is it Middle School, is it college? What’s the aim there?

Elena Pastore  14:33

So the CEO created it with college students in mind because she’s a college professor. However, it can really be for high school students or for college students. Anyone that’s at that age where they, they know that there’s more to learn and more to do. And, you know, not everyone goes to college, too. And the students that don’t go to college still need to learn these things equally as well as students that do go to college.

Murray Guest  15:04

Yeah. So something that’s popped into my head is the concept of a growth mindset and how important that is that we approach. Where do you think that plays out in this sort of development?

Elena Pastore  15:19

I actually just wrote a blog on growth mindset. So there you go.

Murray Guest  15:24

There we go.

Elena Pastore  15:24

Very fresh in my mind. Yeah, I think everyone can have a growth mindset, but certainly not everyone does. And you can’t necessarily convince people to have a certain mindset or thinking a certain way, I feel that everyone individually needs to come to the realization or understand for themselves, why growth mindset is important. And unfortunately, sometimes it’s difficult to get people with a fixed mindset to understand the other side. So students, or anyone with a growth mindset, I think, is going to be able to develop and grow more, because they are the ones that value that. One thing that I’ve learned in business is that, like I just alluded to, you can’t convince someone of something, they either believe what you say, or they’re just not going to, and, you know, your your, your efforts are better spent a lot of times working with people, or talking to people that are on the same page. So people with growth mindset, definitely will get more out of investing in themselves. But people with fixed mindset are not a lost cause, and are not doomed, and something they can’t change. It’s just a different approach you would need to take with them.

Murray Guest  16:54

Yeah. And looking back on my own personal development, I think I wasn’t aware of the concept of a growth mindset until, you know, early 30s, or something like that. And thinking about, imagine if people were having that understanding and developing that growth mindset, like you’re saying earlier in life, whether that’s college years or even earlier, how that changes that approach to learning to understanding to growing to being open to new ideas, and improving. If there’s someone listening, while hope there is many people listening, that wants to know the best way to embrace a growth mindset, what would be your tip, do you think for them?

Elena Pastore  17:38

To embrace a growth mindset. I am a huge self awareness advocate. I’m a huge fan of Gary Vaynerchuk. If you know him. And I attribute all of my personal self awareness and learning about it to him. But I just think that self awareness is so powerful, because when you look internally, and really aren’t afraid to be vulnerable with yourself, and understand what you are good at, what you’re not good at, what your strengths are, in the areas that you need to grow. Your growth mindset will take that information and help you place it or put your energy into the best context for you to realize growth in whatever area that you see you need to improve in and work towards. So self awareness and reflection will be my advice.

Murray Guest  18:49

I’m gonna ask you a question, which I hope we can go there. So no, no pre prep everyone.

Elena Pastore  18:57

Go for it.

Murray Guest  18:59

Considering the year that 2020 has been in the US how do we get that growth mindset to more people to change and help heal and move people forward? I’m gonna put you on the spot. How do you reckon we could do that?

Elena Pastore  19:18

That’s fine. Um, so I’ll reference Gary again, one of the things that he has said about 2020 is, you know, don’t cancel the year that woke you up. Just a lot of things alluding to the fact that you know, every negative situation opens another door or has another opportunity and when you’re faced with something bad or something negative, that you can’t do anything about it. Focus on what you can control, focus on the things that you can do. And so, you know, having that type of attitude, I definitely think that this is one of the best years to have a growth mindset because you’re physically limited with what you can do anyway. And he also always says, you know, this is the greatest era to be alive, because you have the internet, you have everything at your fingertips, you can become an expert in anything you want to just because you can Google it, and learn it and figure it out. And so I know that that’s a very positive and optimistic, look at what 2020 has brought us. But you’re not doing yourself any good service by, you know, being upset, or focusing on the things that you had planned that you can’t do, or, you know, being sad. And of course, this is all aside from the disease itself and people getting sick. Yeah, um, but this is a very powerful time. Because if there has been any wake up call for all of humanity, to act on the things that you’re passionate about, or have always been wanting to do, this is the time for it. So I try to be optimistic and positive in times like this, and just I’m always a huge advocate of think about what you can control and create the best possible situation out of it for yourself, because no one is going to do it for you.

Murray Guest  21:31

Yeah, yeah. So in your own self reflection of 2020, are there any lessons that you’re taking out of this year, into next year and beyond?

Elena Pastore  21:46

I will say at the beginning, I was kind of happy that I was stuck at home because I don’t really give myself a break very often, I’m always go, go go. And so it was like, Okay, I can kind of chill for a couple weeks. And then of course, it just went on and on for months and months. And the biggest thing that I learned in the beginning is, I shouldn’t have to have a crazy pandemic to say, Okay, I deserve a break now. And I think a lot of Americans, at least because work life in America is crazy. But I’m sure people all over the world as well, are very hard on themselves and their work. And even if you love it, you know, it’s important to take that mental break. So that’s the first thing that I learned. And then the second thing, I guess, is that, especially when you’re at home and have nothing, or no one to hold you to things or to go anywhere, you really have to be self disciplined to work out every day to you know, check off all these things that when you have all the time in the world, and there’s no pressure to do them, what’s going to make you get motivated to actually do them.

Murray Guest  23:06

Did you see Wally, the Pixar film?

Elena Pastore  23:10

When it came out? It was a while ago.

Murray Guest  23:12

Yeah years ago, but I don’t know if you remember when it came out. You know, in the future, there’s always people that are quite overweight, or very overweight, and they’re on these sort of like, hovering sort of things. I don’t know, what you call hovering chairs, going around everywhere. And I remember at the start of this year, I thought, I don’t want to end up like that, like, I’m gonna use this time to make sure I invest in my health, look after me. Because it’s so easy not to. So you’re right, you need that self discipline and that motivation. But and I also love that other lesson. And a few people, quite a number I’ve talked to, have had that, let’s not wait for a crisis to look after ourselves. You know, self care isn’t selfish. Let’s invest in ourselves as we go along throughout the year. So that hopefully, those healthy habits of people who implemented this year, they continue beyond because you’re right, we don’t wait to get to the point of burnout or something like that. Yeah. You mentioned earlier when you’re referencing Gary Vee around the internet and access to information and Google and you also let me know about the impact of The Social Dilemma on Netflix. And I’ll put my hand up and say I started watching it. I was I was actually away for work recently. And I started watching it and thought, alright I’ll come back to it. So I need to finish watching it. That’s why I’ll put my hand up and say that. For those that haven’t seen it, please, can you give us Elena, your perspective of what it’s about and the impact it’s made for you.

Elena Pastore  24:45

I also want you to tell me what you thought of the little bit that you watched?

Murray Guest  24:50

Well, I think I put down my device. That’s one of the things I did. So very quickly I’ll jump in. I realized through this year, my time on Twitter has gone up and up and up. And I think it was my thirst for information. And then my thirst for what’s going on in the world, whether that’s around the pandemic or other, you know, protests, Black Lives Matter. And that thirst for information, but then I realized I was getting to some unhelpful habits of looking through Twitter. So I’ve actually consciously stopped and I actually don’t have the app on my phone and haven’t been on there now for a week. And I feel better. So what does it mean for you?

Elena Pastore  25:36

Yeah, um, there are definitely some. So I guess for those that haven’t seen it, that are listening, I’ll briefly explain. It’s essentially, they’re interviewing executives, current past executives from some of the biggest social media companies. And they’re talking about a lot of the negativity or bad, maybe mal-intentioned, or maybe not mal intentioned things that are happening in the social media world and the negative influence it’s having on our society. And for me, a lot of it didn’t come to me as a surprise, because I’ve done a little bit of work with SEO. And I know how targeted you can get with ads, just as any random consumer. So I know that they have, you know, a lot of data and things like that. But the craziest part is showing how strategic they are with targeting each individual person, and really getting you to pick up that device and spend more screen time on whatever their platform is. Which I also kind of knew, but for me, the part that was most striking was when they started talking about politics, and some of the more sensitive, controversial topics. So they talked about in America how, you know, the 2016 election was compromised, because of social media, how leading up to the election this year, which is only a couple of weeks away. Media is affecting our lives outside of what we’re doing on the screen so much, and how it’s making people hate each other, just because they’re associated with a specific political party. And it, you know, we’re about so much more than what political party we affiliate with. And I’m anxious to see what’s going to happen in the future, just in general with social media and how people are so influenced. And don’t fact check. 

Murray Guest  28:19

And the reconfirming beliefs, from my understanding everything about social media platforms, and online information, and reconfirming what you believe, because you keep on seeing it, and algorithms keep on giving you that information, which then can cause greater separation, and, you know, I guess misunderstanding between different perspectives.

Elena Pastore  28:42

Right, right. And I never realized that it had that power. But it’s because they talked about how it’s a subtle, it’s a small thing, they modify your behavior because of all of these miniscule interactions or actions that you take each day on social media. So it’s, it is pretty wild.

Murray Guest  29:06

Yeah. Can I just quickly check in – have you changed your habits at all since watching it as well, the documentary?

Elena Pastore  29:16

Um, you know, of course, I’m going to be that person and say, I don’t really go on it that much. To be honest, I haven’t really changed my habits, but I am not. I don’t think I go on too much. And I’m, or I guess now I’m being more aware of what I’m looking at and my reaction to it, but I don’t think I went on it too much to begin with. But of course, that’s my opinion. Everyone can probably do a little bit less. Just being honest.

Murray Guest  29:51

Yeah. And I guess there’s, I think if everyone is more consciously aware of the way they are, as you’re saying, aware of the information and looking at the way it’s making them feel. Because it’s actually going to keep on being shown to you in a way which could lead you down to a way of thinking and feeling. But if you’re more aware of that, and you actually doing, actually some pause and reflection, I think that’s really powerful. I want to ask, you know, obviously talking about this year, and what 2020 has been like, and in the work you do, I’d love to know, where do you think we’re going to be? I know, you don’t have futuristic in your top five. I wonder where that might be. But where do you think we’re going to be in about 10 years time? Well, where do you hope we’re going to be?

Elena Pastore  30:40

In 10 years? I hope we have a vaccine.

Murray Guest  30:46

Well, hope it’s before then. But yeah, I agree with that.

Elena Pastore  30:51

In terms of social media, or in terms of just anything?

Murray Guest  30:54

Well, I’d like to know, what’s the first thing that comes to mind with that question, it could be for you, as you said, it might be social media, but maybe more broadly, back to some of the other things we’re talking about around business and college and education and things like that.

Elena Pastore  31:07

I have read up about on, you know, just some articles from reputable services on the internet about how education is going to be revolutionized and how there may be less weight or importance given to college degrees, there’s going to be more, or I should say a greater shift towards I think it was referred to as micro certifications. I don’t know what the term was, but I think it was essentially, you know, a certificate here a certificate there, a license here, a license there, so people can not be wed to one particular career path or route. Which I don’t really think many people are wed to their career path today, unless you’re a doctor or something very specific. But I definitely think that I don’t, to be honest, I don’t think in only 10 years college will be significantly less desirable for students. But I do think there has been a greater shift towards gig work. And I think that will continue to increase. And I do think that people will continue to go for some of those smaller licenses or certifications, just so they diversify their portfolio of what they’re qualified to do.

Murray Guest  32:47

Yeah. And I hear that from our start of our conversation with the type of work you do working with different people at the moment. And, again, here’s a quote, and you might have heard this, maybe it was Gary Vee. I’m not too sure. But it was around, you know, get ready for the world where we’ve actually got a million one-person businesses. And we’re beyond that now. It’s entrepreneurial, that flexibility in a different way people work, and there’s just so many, I guess, opportunities for people now to work in different ways.

Elena Pastore  33:23

I haven’t heard that. It’s interesting. But I also, not everyone can be an entrepreneur, because we need people to work for corporations. And I don’t think everyone’s necessarily cut out to be an entrepreneur. Just because of a lot of extreme, I guess, qualities it requires of people. But I mean, I work for three entrepreneurs. And I love doing that. Just because of the the entrepreneurial spirit and just the way that you do work with them. And it’s just more personal, at least to me. And intentional, you feel like you’re making an impact, but just the the mindset and the mentality of entrepreneurs. I just love being around because I find it very inspiring.

Murray Guest  34:19

Yeah. And I like your link there too, around, you know, working for larger organizations and being an internal entrepreneur. So an intrapreneur. Which that growth mindset is still needed in those positions as well. Of course, yeah.

Elena Pastore  34:32

Exactly. Yeah, we need we need people all over.

Murray Guest  34:36

Yeah. Just to round us out. And to go back to the start of our conversation around strengths, for anyone that’s listening that hasn’t taken the Clifton Strengths Finder or discovered their strengths, what would be your motivation for them to go and do it? What would you say is the reason for doing it do you think?

Elena Pastore  34:55

I mean, I just learned so much more about myself. Not only to apply apply to a career, but also just understanding my personal habits and behaviors and actions. So it’s very, very cheap. And it’s extremely, extremely worth the price. But taking it is only the first step, you have to do to research or have a coach and invest in it, but you will just be happier and more successful in all aspects of your life if you really take the time to invest in it.

Murray Guest  35:32

Yeah, and I totally agree with everything you’ve said, I love helping people understand their strengths, it made a big impact in my life first finding out my top five, eight years ago, and since obviously, my full 34. And I agree with your comments to around that personal development and self awareness, and even our growth mindset. It all links beautifully to how strengths can help with those areas as well. Elena, it’s been fantastic getting to know you and what you do and your passions and your insights for what life’s like and what you do. Just to help wrap up just a couple of last questions. Can I ask what do you think 2021 is going to look like for you? What are you going to be working on? What sort of things you’re going to be doing?

Elena Pastore  36:19

Yeah, so I am an aspiring strengths coach. So I am just starting now to get into finding some work doing strengths with students. So I plan to, hopefully before the end of 2021, launch a little business doing leadership and strengths coaching for college student executive boards. So I served on a number when I was in college, you’re just sort of thrown in and expected to know what you’re doing. And obviously, when you’re a college student, you don’t know what you’re doing. So I think I can really make an impact by helping college student run executive boards and organizations learn about leadership through coaching them just in general leadership terms, as well as integrating strengths into that. And I hope to get my Gallup certification as well. So those are my, those are my plans.

Murray Guest  37:19

Yeah, fantastic. Um, and I can hear you just sparked up then when you talk about that, and about helping those student run college boards that you can really help them and and, you know, draw on your experiences that you said, also through a strengths lens as well. So I’m sure you’ll do fantastic at that. And just to talk about that inspiration, so this is the Inspired Energy podcast, and what would you say your definition is of inspired energy?

Elena Pastore  37:50

So I feel that inspired energy is the motivation or drive to execute on what it is you’re passionate about, through the inspiration of those around you who are rooting for you and helping you along that way. So you have the energy due to your internal motivation and drive. But you can’t do it alone. So you’re inspired by those around you that are helping you get there. That’s what I’m trying to do.

Murray Guest  38:30

Yeah, and I can hear that in your voice. I can see that’s what you do now. And as you’re a coach, and helping people do that, I can see you bring that as well. So awesome getting to know you talking through, again, your experiences, your knowledge and sharing that. So thank you so much for your time. If someone would like to reach out and connect with you, where’s the best place to do that online?

Elena Pastore  38:54

On my LinkedIn.

Murray Guest  38:56

Yep. And I’ll have a link to that on the show notes. Elena, thank you so much, all the best for the rest of 2020. I hope that you are healthy. And I look forward to you know, observing your success as you keep doing what you’re doing and launching the coaching business. So I will see what’s going on for you in 2021. But I’m sure it’s going to be fantastic. I love getting to know you. So thanks again so much for your time.

Elena Pastore  39:25

Thank you so much. I wish you success as well. And I had a great time being on here. So thank you for having me. 

Murray Guest  39:31

No trouble at all. All the best for 2020.

Episode 74 – Jim Collison | CliftonStrengths Community Manager Gallup

In this episode I chat with Jim Collison, a powerhouse Talent Acquisition and CliftonStrengths Community Manager at Gallup.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Jim, I am so excited to be catching up with you on the podcast, I have known you for, it must be four years. And I’ve heard your voice dozens, if not hundreds of times. So great to have you on the podcast. How’ve you been? How are you this week? 

Jim Collison  00:18

Muz, great to be with you. Sorry in advance that you had to listen to that voice hundreds of times. But I hope it’s been helpful.

Murray Guest  00:26

Definitely been helpful. You are a leader, obviously, in the strengths industry, in the strengths movement, and helping people really more deeply understand what it means to really focus on what it is that makes them so unique. Now, I want to ask you something that I don’t know the answer to to kick us off. Why strength for you?

Jim Collison  00:51

That’s a good, it’s a super good question. Probably 15 years ago, I was a part of an organization that had been purchased by another organization. And we were the one that got bought. And so we were sitting around because there wasn’t a lot to do you know, in the in between time. So I was kind of looking for some things to do. And I came across that book First Break All The Rules. It had to be I mean, it was a brand new book at the time. And I read through it cover to cover and I went oh my gosh, like, not only do I want to be led this way, I want to lead my family this way. And I took that book kind of as a as a parenting guide, kind of crazy. Well, the follow on to that is Now Discover Your Strengths. And so I looked around the building, of the organization I was part of. It had been an early adopter of strengths. And it had never made it to our department. So I looked around the building and found Now Discover Your Strengths and took the assessment. And for the first time ever, kind of nailed me as an individual. Kind of like, yes!

Murray Guest  01:57

Had you done other assessments before strengths?

Jim Collison  02:03

No I really hadn’t. That had just not been a part of a part of what I done. But after taking that one, I remember taking it home and saying not only do we need to parent this way, but this thing really nailed me. And we got a book for Sarah, my wife. And she took it and I think for the first time I understood our marriage. Well, it’s like, oh, okay, so, you know, 15 years ago, early in the strength journey, you know, never could have predicted that my life would have turned out to be what it is today of podcasting a couple times a week on the subject, it seems like especially here during the pandemic. And so that was the early genesis of it that was this opportunity to, to to see it for real, in how those, I hear this experience from people who take it. And I see them online, I talked to them on Facebook, it and that never gets old because that was that was my experience as well.

Murray Guest  02:58

So when you say you really understood your marriage, and I guess the key part of that is understanding Sarah, is there a partnership or a complementary strengths that happened between you and Sarah in your relationship?

Jim Collison  03:13

We finally understood or at least I finally understood our opposites, right? They always say opposites attract. And for the longest time, I never, I never really understood her belief. And I didn’t know what to call it. But I have, I have so little of that I have so much situational ethics, I have so much fire fighting in the moment, I have so many shades of grey. And she is black and white with belief like belief, discipline, one, two for her. And I just didn’t think that was possible in a person, just to be honest, like I was like, there is no way anybody can be that disciplined, and then have those values and beliefs that are so locked in. And so I doubted it for a lot of years. And I just I just didn’t think it could be true. And in some cases, I kind of fought it. And that was not good for our marriage. And so once I understood I could trust it. It was true. It was what she said it was, well that that changed a lot of things for us. And you know, it’s not like the sun came out and rainbows appeared. And they’re unicorns. We still had lots of work to do. Yeah, but it began the process of some, some healing and some moving forward and some other things we struggle with early in our marriage. It was a significant moment.

Murray Guest  04:30

Yeah, for Tammy and I it was her activator and connectedness versus my responsibility. And we would, I would say get triggered at times. Where early on it’d be like, she would say, let’s go for a holiday. Let’s just go! And I’m like, hang on, hang on. We got to organize, have we balanced it out? Have we worked it out with my ex wife, with the kids? Have we budgeted for this? She goes, No it’s all going to work out. My connectedness says it’s all going to work, let’s just go. And I could feel internally that this this was wrong.

Jim Collison  05:05

You know, when we were the we were the opposite of you guys. I’m like, Hey, let’s just go figure this thing out, right? We’ll be fine. Let’s just go figure it out. Let’s get one step at a time, we’ll figure it out. And she wanted to know all the details, she kind of, she needed that stability she wanted, she needed to know, way ahead of what things were happening. And it was it was difficult for us for sure. I’m sure you felt that as well.

Murray Guest  05:32

Yeah. And I would say that, again, like, similar to your story there for us, it’s been a way to have the conversations without getting emotional, not negative emotion. So just saying a helpful emotional way of really understanding each other. And to help say, oh so that’s the way you see the world. And a link here that I can draw, I’ve ran lots of workshops with teams, and the slide with the Don Clifton quote, which says, Let’s look at what’s right with people not fixate on what’s wrong with them. Honestly, Jim, early on, I would sort of introduce that quote, and just move on. And I then came to this realization, we need to really just talk about what does it mean to make people right. And now I have, in sessions, had half an hour to an hour conversations, not even talking about strengths, how do we make people right? And I think that’s what we brought into our marriage. So is that what you think has also happened in your broader family about how we see each other in a way that we look at each other and making each other right, and you know, those differences and appreciating those? 

Jim Collison  06:45

Yeah that’s a really good question. And we started parenting our children kind of with this mindset of let’s figure out what they’re good at. And then let’s really give them every opportunity to do that. And, you know, again, a good example of, you know, you think so, okay, that’s gonna lead to these perfect kids that are going to do these things, right. And, you know, my oldest, big kid, great football player, and we did everything we could to encourage him in the sport to play. And I remember having a conversation, he could have played the one level, maybe scholarship level, here in the United States pretty easily. And I said, you know, we need to do a few things. This was like his junior year, we’re gonna need to do a few things if you’re going to do that, to put you in a position. He goes, Yeah, I’m not really interested in that. Like, it was, he didn’t think about or he had thought about it in advance. He goes, ah my shoulder hurts, and my knees aren’t very good. I don’t want to be crippled for the rest of my life. And you had this realization, like, Oh, as a parent, I was kind of hoping he would continue to play football and none of the other kids were, were athletically inclined. And so this was going to be, for the most part, the end of our kind of sports with our kids. And, but that didn’t mean I kept… Yeah, he was good at it. But that doesn’t mean I just keep pushing him. You know, like, wow, that’s, that’s too bad for you, you’re gonna do this thing. It also means listening. And saying when they say, Hmm, you know, and he had he had solid reasons. Now, there’s been, you know, there’s been times my kids have said, Yeah, I’m not really interested in school, I’m not going to do my homework. And you go, you don’t have a choice. This is what you need to do. Right? So there’s, there’s differences in that, but Muz we really spent an enormous amount of time trying to figure out, where do their gifts and their talents lie. We’ve had top five taken for all the kids. And in not just what their themes are, but then what are those areas where they invest and they really become strengths. And then how can we encourage more of that, and that’s not perfect, by the way, it’s super, super hard to do. Because they don’t know themselves. And so, but but we have spent, you know, the last 15 years really kind of working on that. My youngest daughter is now a senior in college in in a journalism program. And she’s a great example of you know, she was really good at math. And her math teacher was like, she can go places with math. And she’s like, I hate math. I do not want to do this long term. I want to be a journalist. And so we sent her to a j school at a local college around here, I just dropped her off tonight, that’s got a really great program, and she’s thriving in it. And so you know, if we would have followed maybe even her teacher’s recommendations without really talking to her about it and saying, what are your passions? What are you really good at? She’s great at writing and editing and all those things as well. We would have missed it, you know, and so there’s sometimes I think, too, there’s, realizing what they don’t want to do, even if they have the natural talent and aptitude. Maybe it’ll come back at another time. She recognizes it.

Murray Guest  09:57

Do you think that’s also a difference between being good at something, and something that you really love doing that energizes you and you thrive at.

Jim Collison  10:04

Yeah, right on, I’m a really good test taker, like, I am really good at taking tests, but then that information is gone, you would not want me as your doctor, I’d study for the test, and I’d be able to do it on game day. But then, you know, when it came to the actual, practical application of it, I need to do things over and over and over again, you know, I’m a better talker than I am, you know, in science or in math. So, yeah, I do think there are things we’re good at, that we don’t, you know, those things are good every once in a while, but that’s definitely, you know, maybe not where we want to lean all of our time into, and Muz, I think, let me ask you this, let me reverse, you know, the roles here. I think sometimes those things change over time, as well. In other words, I, I discovered some things I get good at it, I do it for a while. And then I kind of figure like, okay, it’s been a season for me, have you had that experience where you’ve done something well for a while, you really enjoyed it, and then it kind of it changes on you?

Murray Guest  11:03

Yeah, well, I reflect back early in my career, being a quality manager, and I would crunch numbers around quality data, using Excel and Access and, you know, out of a data cube and doing all of that. And honestly, Jim, that does not excite me thinking about doing that at all right now. Put me in front of a group of people, you know, getting a chance to talk to someone like you like we are today, that fills me up, that energizes me. Whereas that and, and to find out Communication is, you know, number three in my top five was not a surprise.

Jim Collison  11:39

It’s very similar. I was a data warehousing engineer at the bank when just before they got bought, and I wrote sql. I wrote code, and I was okay at it. I enjoyed doing it. But it’s not something I’d want to do. I’ve done some project management. Nah, that’s not. It’s okay. I can do it. When I got the opportunity to start podcasting, you know, about 11 years ago now and 10 years with my own program. And then about eight years at Gallup, I found, for now, you know I say that people think that this is a foregone conclusion that I’m going to do this forever. And I’m like, right now, it’s great. I don’t know if it’s gonna last forever. I got to make hay while the sun is shining. So I’m doing as much as I can with it now. But that Woo, Communication, back loaded with some Maximizer in there, the Arranger and Activator, they’re perfect in filling that role, that that window may not always be open. But while it is I am. You know, I’m running through it as fast as I can.

Murray Guest  12:44

I think the fact that there have been, what is it? Six seasons? Eight seasons? Of Called To Coach, it links back to what would sort of alluding to here with strengths that there’s a real depth of understanding. It’s not like, hey, we’ve talked about the top the 34 themes, tick the box.

Jim Collison  13:02

Yeah, six seasons of Theme Thursday. Where that’s literally all we do, is talk about the themes. I joke, when I’m around strengths folks, I always joke and say, you know, we get sometimes we get stuck in the name it, name it and name it, we never actually aim that thing towards something. And then I’m a hypocrite because I go right back to the six years of Theme Thursday, that is literally a name it, name it and name it exercise. But it speaks to the depth, right? Each season kind of has a different focus on this. And so the depth alone allows us to continue to work in that space and do those kinds of things.

Murray Guest  13:39

I want to ask you about your experience in podcasting. So I’ve got way less experience than yourself, but I’m absolutely loving it and getting some lessons. What have been some of the biggest lessons you’ve got just by doing podcasting as a, as a thing that you’ve been doing for so long now?

Jim Collison  13:57

Yeah, the number one thing I learned in this is that it’s my job as a podcaster as a web caster, as a broadcaster, whatever you want to call it, interview or whatever. Is to make other people the big deal. Like when I realize it’s my job to amplify other people’s messages, when it’s my job to make other people look great. When it’s my job to get out of the way and let other people have their time in the sun and to shine. It exploded. The you know, the effectiveness of it exploded, as far as it being the people listening to it and people using it, getting out of the way and letting the guest shine. That’s, that’s my job is to stay out of the way. Now, because I’m there and because I say those crazy things, I am Jim Collison and live from the Gallup studios for whatever, right, whatever we’re doing, I’m associated with it. And so I have some I have some recognition with that and it’s good. It’s just enough for me, but I’m not the expert. Right, it’s my job to find the experts. And to make the experts look great. And I think if anything that I’ve learned in this, that’s what I’ve learned is I’m, I’m, I am a good, I’m a good amplifier. I am a good at, hopefully, I’m good at making other people look great. And if that’s what I’m doing, then I’m happy.

Murray Guest  15:24

Can I add to your greatness, if I may? Because I want to highlight you today. It’s asking really good questions, which actually links to being a really good listener. And, and I can hear in the questions you ask, it’s, again, building off what that person is saying, creating this opportunity for them to to shine, and the question you’re asking is giving them that opportunity to do that. And I love the way you do that.

Jim Collison  15:53

It takes a little bit of practice, though Muz, to be honest, like, you know, people say, how do you do it the way you do it? And I said, what I’ve done it 1500 times, you know, I’ve done it, maybe 2000 times like it. I was just driving home tonight thinking I’m doing another podcast next weekend. And they’re gonna ask me like, how many podcasts have you done, and I was starting to piece them together. I think I’ve done, at first I thought like 1000. And then like, No, I think I’ve got a few more. Not bragging about the number that I’ve done. But just understanding the amount of practice, right, is that talent plus investment. That that that adds to this to this equation, right? Or I think it’s times in you, you just picked up a few things along the way. And so yeah, the ability to hear what people are saying, and then they’ll they’ll clue in to one little thing, and you hang on that for a second and then come back around and allow them to expand that out or know just enough things to kind of keep that conversation going. Know the right questions to ask at the right time. To really to really let them shine. Yeah, it’s practice. Like at the end of the day, it’s just practice.

Murray Guest  17:09

I think there’s a link here to coaching and I remember early on in high performance coaching program I did years and years ago, and that message of it’s all about the coachee, not the coach. And for you I’m hearing it’s all about the person you’re interviewing, not about you.

Jim Collison  17:23

Correct. Yeah. Correct. It’s, it’s really about giving them and setting them up to just to put the best foot forward they can and making them feel comfortable. I think this is okay. So that was one, making a big deal. But in the conversation, the second thing is, how do you make people feel comfortable? You know, and tonight, as we were connecting, you know, you’re like, yeah, you’re kind of relaxed. And I’m like, Well, if I was nervous, that would make you nervous. And we may not have that great of a conversation. I feel like it’s my job as the host. When people come on, even if the world is collapsing around us. I have to say, I got this, like, there’s almost, I tell guests, there’s nothing you can do I can’t fix. So don’t worry about that. Like, don’t think about that. You know, don’t worry about the lining. And don’t worry about your microphone, I’ve got all that, I’ll take care of, I’ve done this so many times. I can do this with my eyes closed or sleeping in some cases, because I do dream about podcasting sometimes. Right, it’s my job to make them feel comfortable.

Murray Guest  18:25

So let’s draw a link to the leaders that listen to my podcast. If I’m a leader, and I want to be better at shining the light on someone, creating opportunities for them to grow, and helping them feel relaxed and confident. What’s the lesson from podcasting of how we do that, that leaders could take on? What’s your tip there?

Jim Collison  18:46

As a leader, you got to give up everything. Because, you know, we go into podcasting thinking this is going to be my show. Yeah, like, or this is going to be my thing. And I have to give that up and say, No, this isn’t about me. This is about the other people I’m having on, this is about what’s going on in their world. And I did give that up. And I think leaders, the really good ones get this naturally is that it’s never about me as a leader and how to advance my career. It’s always about advancing the careers of those around me. And, and rising tides lifts all boats. All ships, right. And so it really to be honest with you, if you’re a leader give up on that anyways, there’s, there’s nothing in that, like, you don’t want that next position, just to be 100% honest with you. You’ve got one right in front of you now. And as we record this, you know, it’s October of 2020. Muz we’re in the middle of a crisis. And we need good leaders to kind of give up on themselves and their career and say, How can I advance the careers of others? What can I do to bring this team together and move them forward? The best thing for your career is maybe giving up on it, then really leading people compassionately.

Murray Guest  20:03

I’m loving that we’re having a three hour conversation today, Jim about ego and letting go of the ego. So let’s do this. But you’re right. And can I just say you draw attention to a crisis, let’s just say we’ve got multiple of those at the moment. There’s lots going on. I actually, it’s funny, I think no matter where you are in your role as a leader in an organization, which which point you’re at, whether you’re a new leader, up and coming leader, or you’re, you know, heading towards the end of your career, and it’s about the legacy, it is about the people and those leaders you create around you to lift. Can I ask, just to peel back the layer one more bit? The letting go – what was that like as a journey? I’m sure that wasn’t just a flick of the switch one afternoon? 

Jim Collison  20:55

No it was kind of something I had to realize, even through parenting, was that the less the agenda was about me, and the more of the agenda was about my kids or, or about my marriage, the better it became, the more effective it was. And, and I actually early on, I managed at Gallup and I don’t know if was the best experience because I hadn’t seen yet that this wasn’t really about me. And so maybe, you know, maybe a decade ago that began to kind of really settle in. And I remember and like you said, it’s not like a switch flipped. But I remember at some point thinking, you know, it’s my job to make other people a big deal. Muz when I started doing that, right, when I realized that, my attitude about people changed. And the way I approach people changed. And I began thinking, I don’t care what’s in it for me. Like, this isn’t about me. I don’t care. In fact, oftentimes I have to be, I push things back. Because people want me in them. And I’m like, No, no, it’s not. It’s not about me. And they’re like, I know but we need you. Can you can you please say yes to this? Because we need you right now. We we just recently launched a new podcast in Portuguese, which is super cool. So we have some partners in Brazil, and I helped them get that going. And as we were talking about the format, they were like, Oh, yeah, and you can I’m like, No, no, no, no, I don’t speak that. We don’t care come speak English. And then we’ll speak Portuguese later. And and I kind of resisted it at first and at one point they asked me, no, we need you. Like, could you please be here and stop fighting us to not be here? And and yeah, no, absolutely. I get it. I get it to that point. So but but helping them, sacrificing for them, helping them. It’s why it’s eight o’clock on a Sunday. And I’m spending time with you. It’s why I produce a Theme Thursday in Japanese at 9:30 on a Tuesday and Wednesday nights. It’s why I’ll stay up till 12 to do a podcast in India. Right? Lots of folks like, you know, my friends at Gallup will be like, Man, it’s really late. I’m like, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

Murray Guest  23:17

So I’m linking there to when you find the thing that is your thing that inspires, lifts you, energizes you, you’re given the chance to be your best. Like you’re saying, it doesn’t matter. Because I can really, I’m in that flow. I’m loving it. How do you balance that out with looking after your own health though, that you’re not, you know, let’s say over playing, over dialing something there where you’re putting yourself, because you got to look after yourself through all that as well. So how do you do that?

Jim Collison  23:47

Yeah, you do. And yeah, I think you have to be intentional about that. Is your anything else. Early in the pandemic, I kind of came up with a micro workout concept where I would spend 10 or 15 minutes seven or eight times a day doing little mini workouts and that actually worked out really well for me. In early in the pandemic we had a lot of time. I had more time. Well, yeah, I had more time, a different schedule. When, in the summer when things started, really summer here in the United States. So June, July, August timeframe, things really got busy at Gallup, like things really, really picked up and I found it was just easier to sit in this chair all day. Right? And I’m confessing to you Muz that the last four months have been dismal in that area. Probably not sleeping as well. Probably not, you know, I put on the COVID-19 as they say, right? That I’m gonna have to lose again at some point. Um, well, so I keep saying to myself, it’s a season, things are just crazy right now. Next Wednesday, I leave for a week of vacation and I’m taking off to get some downtime. And by the way, I’m taking a vacation of five years. So this is a good like, a really good thing to get out. Get beyond for a week. And when I get back it’ll be a little bit cooler outside, it’ll give me an opportunity to work out a little bit more. The trick is it’s not forever, you know, it’s just been for four months.

Murray Guest  25:11

So I, over the past few months in my online programs, have asked leaders and team members, do you want life to go back? Do you want life to go back the way it was pre COVID? And out of I think 200 odd people, it was like, 2 or 3% said yes. So I would like to know, what do you think it’s going to look like post the COVID-19? What do you think is, from what you’re hearing, what you’re feeling, what you’re sensing, what do you think it’s gonna look and feel like?

Jim Collison  25:44

A super great question. I think the rubber band is stretched and it will never really go back all the way to where it was before. It’s kind of this, the way I’m kind of thinking, I don’t think what we’re doing today is sustainable, to be honest. I just this, this craziness, this crazy thing we live in right now. It’s not sustainable. How long? I don’t know, if I could predict those kinds of things I’d be wealthy and not have to work another day in my life. So I can’t. But I think eventually we’ll get back to a hybrid. But certainly, what has changed is everyone’s up their game on remote working, and the ability to connect like this. Muz I’ve been doing this for 10 years now. And up until about eight, the first eight years, it was terrible to get people to do this. The lighting was bad. Their audio is bad. Everything was bad, right? Well, now because of work, they’ve had up their game, man that has made my life a lot easier as a podcaster. I just am like, it’s so much easier to get people to connect. And so I think our communication this way has gotten better. The ramifications of that, I’m not sure what that means. Because now I can be reached easier. You know, you’re reaching me at eight o’clock, 8pm on a Sunday night, I’m okay with that. But what will that mean? I don’t know how that all plays out, if that’s a good thing or a bad thing?

Murray Guest  27:10

Yeah, I think the the conversations around our ways of working with teams is really, really important. So let’s get some alignment and agreement around, well, what does that look like? If I’m a team member, I’m working from home three days a week, and my working hours that meet the needs of the business, but I’ve also got that balance, I’m looking after myself and my family at the same time. So removing assumptions and having those conversations is really important.

Jim Collison  27:37

I’ve actually worked more hours at home, you know, down here, sooner, most days start about 7:30 as opposed to use to starting at 8:30, when I would when I drive in most days finish at 5:30 or 6, which is kind of standard for when I was in the office. So I’m starting a little bit earlier, I’m being a little bit more effective. I am fine. I’m sitting a lot more here. Because I used to at least walk to meetings. Now you just dial up people. I am finding though I’m having more smaller meetings throughout the day. And they’re more effective, because we don’t chit chat this way.

Murray Guest  28:17

See, and can I just say that’s a real challenge for teams. And I think I’d love to get your perspective that I think it’s a Simon Sinek quote, which is, “Teams are built before the meeting starts.” And with Zoom, and whatever online platform you’re using, Microsoft Teams or whatever, it’s like, okay, we’re on, let’s chat about the topic, we’ve got not the the investment in us as human to human connecting. So I think it’s really important we don’t skip that. We bring that into the conversation.

Jim Collison  28:46

Yeah. And I try to actually connect early to be there for anybody else joining early and then have those, try to have those conversations. At Gallup we’re a super social company. So the first five minutes is that kind of connecting anyways. What I found in the past, though, is what we did is we talked, we would do that for 10 minutes, and then we’d have 15 minutes of a meeting and then we’d have 25 minutes after the fact. Okay, the 25 minutes is probably fat that we can cut, just to be 100% honest. Virtually, we just cut those off sooner. And so we’re just we’re more effective that way than we were. I am getting way more work done now than I was pre-pandemic, and it’s more satisfying, just to be honest. They’ve invited us to come back in we have all kinds of measures in place to make sure it’s safe and distancing and masked and all that stuff. But I’m finding I come down here in the morning and I’m like, ah, and not for safety reasons. Not for you know, not for what you think. I’m craving the work that I’m able to do here at home because it’s been so successful over the last six months.

Murray Guest  29:55

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. So I’d love to know for people listening, I’m sure would be intrigued. What’s the best thing about working for Gallup?

Jim Collison  30:07

So many great things about working for Gallup.

Murray Guest  30:10

That’s a good thing.

Jim Collison  30:12

It is, you know, the best thing for me is, is this thing called trust. And in the role that I’m in, over the last, especially the last eight years, I’ve worked with people who just trust me. And there’s nothing I… If you ask me, you know, what’s my greatest need? It is to be trusted. And I don’t know why, that’s crazy. You know, I just I mentioned early in this, my wife has belief and discipline, you think that would play nicely into that, and not as much, but at work, I want to be trusted. And and they have, you know, the folks that I work with, trust me to do what I need to get done. And it’s just, it has been in the freedom and the way that I need to get it done. Listen, it hasn’t come without questions. Like I’ve done some things. And they’ve been like, Hey, where are you going with that? I’ve made mistakes in the process. Don’t get me wrong. But that the trust to continue to push forward is is is paramount to my engagement.

Murray Guest  31:15

And obviously, we’ve got some strong links between high trust organizations and high performance and engagement.

Jim Collison  31:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, right on, I think it’s one of those, you know, of the four needs. I mean, that’s one of the four needs of followers.

Murray Guest  31:30

That’s exactly right.

Jim Collison  31:31

I think you just, for me, I don’t need as much stability. I need I do need a little hope. You know, in that, but man, the trust component of it is huge.

Murray Guest  31:43

Yeah. Can I ask if you feel like someone betrays your trust, is that a triggering thing for you? Is that like, hang on. If you don’t get it is that like, hey, we’ve got to sort something out.

Jim Collison  31:58

Yeah, I go a little sideways. If I’m either questioned or, or my integrity is questioned, or I see somebody going around me for something. And, by the way, they may be justified. You know, I don’t walk on water. Right. I walk in water. So it may be justified, but yeah that’s a definite trigger for me, I go a little sideways, when those kinds of things don’t happen.

Murray Guest  32:24

Is there any links you see between your dominant talents and trust?

Jim Collison  32:29

Oh, that’s a great question. I’m going to get coached, I’m gonna, I’m gonna treat this like some free coaching. This is gonna be pretty, pretty great. You know, I think so the Influence for me is so high, right? Four of five are influencing themes. And, and I’m a self admitted influencer, that’s what I do. It’s what my job is to do. And it’s tough if people don’t trust you, it’s tough for that influence to happen. And so I think there’s a correlation between the two, because I’m not just influencing our strengths coaches or I’m not just influencing folks who purchase Clifton strengths, or I’m not just influencing the community, I’m also influencing Gallup people, like it’s equally important that they trust me and that I that I help them move in directions I think is smart for us. And if they don’t trust me, it’s, you know, I just I dive in, I start, you know, calling. Hey, we got to talk about this thing. So yeah, I think it’s tied to the influencing for sure.

Murray Guest  33:28

Well, I mean, that’s a high trust culture to actually be able to ring someone and say, hang on, we need to talk about this and know that you’re coming from a place of good.

Jim Collison  33:37

Well, I just I had a call last week with a co worker who said to me, You said something and hurt my feelings, I just want to tell you that. Oh, what did I say? Sorry, you know, the 1000s of things I say a day. And it was a great moment of just healing and not to be like, Oh, you know I didn’t mean that. He’s like, I know, I know you didn’t. But it did hurt my feelings. I’m like, I’m sorry. Like, I didn’t intend to go down that path. So those kinds of things Muz in some organizations are cancer. And once it starts, right, then it starts then they start saying things and things are said behind people’s backs. And it starts growing in a team and the team falls apart over one person getting their feelings hurt. So I think it is important, we are able to have that openness. I do work with great people that I could just say, hey, that didn’t feel great when you said that. And they don’t immediately go on the defense. Right?

Murray Guest  34:36

I think, I mean, for people listening, that’s a great example of the measure of the trust in the organization, that you can have those conversations, and they can be challenging and constructive. And people are open to having those conversations.

Jim Collison  34:51

Yeah, yeah, it’s not easy. In the moment, I felt really bad. And when I got done with the call I was, then I start thinking about all the things I’ve said in the last couple of weeks, you know, you’re like, Oh my god, am I doing this to everybody? But no, it’s good.

Murray Guest  35:09

I had a company I was working with a few years back and one of their sayings was no triangles. And I loved it. It was, so Murray says something to Jim. Jim says something to Sarah. And Jim says to Sarah, I didn’t like what Mary said. But so then he goes to Sarah, and Sarah goes to me, and then I go back and we’re forming triangles everywhere, instead of just going back and forward. One on one. And it’s just a simple phrase, I loved it.

Jim Collison  35:36

I mean, to be clear, distrust among, in nature is important, because we won’t survive. If you trusted everything right. In, we are the dominant species on the planet, because we trusted each other at that point. And so I mean, that’s, that’s kind of genetically built into us. I think for some folks, it just needs to be learned, like, they just need to learn it’s gonna be okay. We don’t we don’t hang out in tribes anymore. So there’s not a lot of great opportunities for that to happen in our communications a little separated and now we don’t depend upon each other for some of those basic life and death things anymore, right. And so I think you got to kind of help teams along with that. And I’m not talking about falling backwards off the table, right? I’m talking about real world situations where managers practice that with their teams. Where the manager leads by saying, leading by example, and maybe be saying, Hey, I saw this happen. Let’s talk about it. Or, hey, I’m open enough that if I’ve hurt you, in some way, come tell me and then demonstrate what that looks like. When it actually, you know, the manager doesn’t get defensive. The manager doesn’t get angry. That has to be modeled. It’s hard. It’s the hardest part about being a manager, I think.

Murray Guest  36:55

Yeah. So I’m going back to your point earlier about letting go. It’s not about you. And being approachable, and, and being open and vulnerable and having those conversations. If we’re doing those things we are, you know, let’s say breaking some rules, like you said early on.

Jim Collison  37:14

Yeah, it’s not easy. This is not and it’s not magic. It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t, it doesn’t feel good. You think it’s Oh, yeah. Oh, I’m gonna get there. And it’s gonna be Nirvana. Right? No, this is actually in the midst of these these when you do them, right. It’s actually harder. But it’s better in the long run.

Murray Guest  37:33

Well, I think about that ongoing investment in the relationship you have with Sarah, I have with Tammy, as a leader, it’s very similar with your team. It’s that ongoing investment, having those ongoing conversations and doing that as well.

Jim Collison  37:44

Yeah, you gotta keep practicing.

Murray Guest  37:46

Yeah. So I want to go back to one of your top five, which maybe is quite often misunderstood. So Woo. Number two. When you saw that come out in your report, was that a ‘yeah, that’s a validation. I am not surprised,’ or was that a surprise for you?

Jim Collison  38:06

No it got a rock fest, like a fist pump. I was like, Yes. Because it did. I did. I did agree with all of it. Yeah, this is me. 15 years ago, when I first saw it, I didn’t really understand all the nuances of it. And so, you know, yeah, I’d love to, I love to get to know people. I love to be at the center of the attention of the party. I love to be the one pulling people together. I love you know, I loved all those things about it. What I kind of learned to what kind of learned over the years is that these aren’t, you know, being the life of the party is not a success trait. Like that’s not what Don Clifton meant, there’s some there’s some hints in there. But what he meant was, how can you have influence over people and move them in directions? I think it’s kind of the heart of leadership, in getting people, convincing people. I think it’s a sales theme, to be honest, by convincing people to do something different or to do more of the thing that they’re currently doing. Right, be more productive. The key word in there is ‘do’ – to get people to do – like that’s what it, that’s what we’re trying to get done here. And I think maybe the last five years have I really kind of understood as we’ve been doing all the theme Thursday’s that’s an influencing strength. It’s it’s moving people in directions. And I yeah, I really like that. That casts lots of success on a team. And so I got to deploy it through these webcasts. What we do on the webcast is one big woo exercise. Woo and communication, let’s be honest, and those come together pretty frequently.

Murray Guest  39:47

And and Woo, you could see exist as part of who you were even before? You know, knowing that it was…

Jim Collison  39:55

It’s my name. I’m the poster child. Like it should be me in there, I agree with it all, for sure.

Murray Guest  40:04

If you had to get one of your dominant talents tattooed on your body, to say, this is me, like I and I’ve truly lived breathed this, this is me which one or two would it be?

Jim Collison  40:17

I think in the last two years, I never really understood Maximizer. It just didn’t, and I’ve said this on the on the webcast. So if you’ve heard me say this before, I apologize. But I’ll say it again, because he asked the question. We always say quality, like they demand quality, and I didn’t see any of that in me. I mean, I don’t really care, to be honest. Like I say, Good enough, pretty often. And those kids think it’s like, what’s the deal here? And in my 40s, I started running. And I didn’t just run a 10 k, I mean I ran a few. And then I’m like, no, maybe I can run a half. And then I ran a few of those. And then I could probably do a full and then I did five of those. And as I started reflecting back, that’s a whole Maximizer. Because it’s whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing. Right, I’ve said that it has become my mantra over the last couple of years, in discovering that has been especially in the heart of the pandemic. You know, we did all last year, I did 50 webcasts all last year, I did 50 by June this year. I mean, if that is not an example of whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing during a pandemic, I could turn on, you know, a little help from activator in there. Yeah, I could turn on this woo, and communication and maximize, and using my definition, the crap out of it. And so if there’s anything that I that I value now that I didn’t understand just a few years ago, to be honest, that now I really, really value like, it’s probably my one serious strength. You know, it’s probably the one I think this could take me somewhere if I can just harvest this. And it’ll influence all the rest of them. So Maximizer would be the one for me, again, not a quality thing. I don’t make things better, although sometimes I do. I just do more than anybody else does. I can’t stop at one. You know, I gotta, if we’re gonna do one, we could do 10 or 100.

Murray Guest  42:10

So I’m making the assumption that that also just shows up for you week in week out about how do I make this better? How do I improve on the way I’m doing this?

Jim Collison  42:19

Yeah, if improve equals doing more then Yes. Like, I want to do more, and in most cases, Muz to be honest, they have to be done more efficiently. If I’m going to do more, they have to be more efficient. And so that means doing them better. You have a lot of people. So that all fits in that definition.

Murray Guest  42:36

Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. Um, so partnerships play a big part in your life. You’ve got some strong partnerships, you know, Micah is such a great one. What’s been your insights around partnerships over the years that you can really, you know, just reflect on and share that, that that sort of brought to the surface for you about how powerful partnerships are?

Jim Collison  43:03

Well, there, the power of two is amazing. And, you know, Micah is just the tip of the iceberg on my partnerships at Gallup. And some partnership I had that no one in this community will ever know is Jodi Kennedy. And actually, she was my first partner in recruiting. And Jody and I did some amazing things around internships and high school internships, stuff nobody will ever see except a whole different side of the world, right. And a powerful partner. The, the key was, I think, in those partnerships is I had to be willing to give as much as my partner was going to give and that it wasn’t just going to happen, I needed to cultivate it. And so you know, we’re in a little bit of a down cycle with Theme Thursday right now, because we’re done producing for the year, we have one more coming up, I don’t have as many opportunities to connect with Micah during this. She’s become an important part of just my weekly routine over the last six years of talking to her and getting coaching and the time we spend together and so I was just talking to her late last weekend like you know, we’re gonna have to schedule time like it’s this isn’t gonna just happen we’re gonna have to schedule time to be together to make sure we’re having, we’re fostering this. And the other part about that in the relationships is I had to completely be okay that I had to completely be okay with who she was both with with Sarah and with Micah and with Jodi, the gals in my life that I work with, I don’t just work with women. Dean is another great example of guys that I’ve worked with, Mike McDonald is another one right? I think I can you know, Jeremy Petrosini is another one right? That I had to be willing to give just as much in in in really be you know, not come demanding like you, you need to fill this role in my life. That’s not that’s not how it starts. It needs to be back to the you know, the conversation. How do I make like when when I figured out I need to make Micah a big deal. Our relationship began to grow at that point, because everybody wants to be a big deal. And then she reciprocated that.

Murray Guest  45:07

Yeah, yeah. And it shines through in the banter and the way that you just support each other through those those conversations. 

Jim Collison  45:18

Muz let me let me, before we move on from that, let me also say, I think sometimes that call it karma, the universe or whatever, whatever you want to fill in with that. But I think sometimes things align in a way and you connect with a person in a way, doing a job doing a task, doing a thing, where it just, it’s perfect. And in, you know, my work with Jodi, and my work with Micah, and I worked with Dean, the planets are aligned right now. And, and so those things are working really, really, very, very well. And I think you have to take advantage of that when it does hit. You can’t wait for tomorrow, there’s no manyana on there.

Murray Guest  45:58

Yeah.

Jim Collison  45:58

You need to nail it now. Because you don’t know it’s gonna, you know, you don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, you need to jump in with both feet and give it full attention and really maximize it. Again, there’s my Maximizer. Because it may not come back.

Murray Guest  46:15

Can I just say, I’m a) loving us chatting. And we didn’t know that where this would go. And, and I and I had no hesitation at all about where we’d go and b) the ideas that we’re sharing. You’re bringing up around what people can actually do about this stuff. So what I’m thinking right now is if you’re listening to this conversation, thinking, Okay, where do I take this? Take time out to think about those partnerships you have right now. And how do you actually invest in them even more, so that you can create what Jim’s talking about? And strengthen those partnerships, create the opportunity for us both to be the best that you can be.

Jim Collison  46:56

I think it starts with a simple question. What can I do for you today? Like, so many people are just waiting to hear those words. Like what can I do for you today? How can I help you? And then actually do it. Like it’s not, it’s not rocket science.

Murray Guest  47:12

Yeah.

Jim Collison  47:13

It’s it’s just a matter. It’s hard. Don’t get me wrong. It’s hard. But asking that question. What can I do for you today is super important.

Murray Guest  47:25

Besides the partnerships, and what we’ve talked about today, what’s your biggest reflection on 2020?

Jim Collison  47:39

We’re not through it yet. We have a we have a lot to,

Murray Guest  47:45

You have an election coming up too by the way.

Jim Collison  47:46

I know, I know it, trust me. And I just I just recorded the Gallup podcast, which I’m an executive producer for. We did an interview on Saturday for that. And I was listening to them talk and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, we have so much. We have so much yet to go through the year. Um, I am, well it’s been a disaster in a lot of ways, and a lot of people’s lives have been changed in this. I don’t like to waste any opportunity. And I think for some folks, this is an opportunity, an opportunity to retool, I think for some organizations, this is an opportunity to retool, for many of them, they’re decimated, and they’re gonna have to re hire back. Why not do it on a strengths based basis? Like, why not start doing things right now, if you’re changing jobs, maybe you’re listening to this, and you’re unemployed, and you’re thinking how to find a job, your next job, by the way, it’s a great opportunity to interview them before you go there to go to a strengths-based organization to get what you are looking for, to begin with. And so I don’t want to minimize anybody’s pain and suffering and difficult time at this point. I’m not trying to say, thank goodness for this. I’m not. It’s been a disaster for many people, and I definitely feel for them. Saturday was international Mental Health Day. And it came at a good time, because we all need to check that right. But at the same token, for some folks, this is going to be the opportunity they were waiting for. They were in a crappy job that they just couldn’t leave because they were afraid, or they didn’t want to leave because they were they don’t want to take the risk. Right. And for some organizations, they didn’t deserve to be around. Like, they were doing things terribly. And this shook it out. Right. And so I guess, you know, it’s I don’t want to say look on the bright side of everything, because I don’t think that’s what I’m trying to say here. But there are opportunities in this and as 2020 shakes out, I guess for the leaders that are listening, what kind of new opportunities do you have to make things better? Okay, how do you start 2021 better? What can you do right now, to finish 2020 strong. I think there’s some options for some people there.

Murray Guest  50:01

What I’m thinking about that, too is, you know, what can you do? What’s in your control? What can you take action on right now? There’s a bunch of things happening in the world right now that are out of our control. But what can you do that’s in your control, in your influence, and you take action on those things right now? And I think that’s been highlighted in 2020. I think trust, you mentioned trust and how important that is to you. But also think trust has been heightened and highlighted how important it is. Because we work these different working arrangements and people working different hours and flexibility. That doesn’t work without trust. We’re going to keep building that trust going forward.

Jim Collison  50:35

I totally agree.

Murray Guest  50:38

What’s the future of the strengths movement? In 25 words or less?

Jim Collison  50:43

I think it’s, I think it’s strong. I think it’s strong. And we have so many great, we’re just getting started Muz. Like, we haven’t reached any peak. There’s no like, we’re just getting going and by the way, I think for this next generation, these Gen Z years, or whatever we’re going to call them. They get this, but I think naturally, they get this. We don’t have to fight them. They understand that. Oh, yeah. If I focus on what I’m good at, yeah. So you know, the next generation, the working generation that’s coming in now, the young kids, they get it. And by the way, let’s stop picking on them. Okay, leaders, let’s stop making them feel bad about who they are. They’re the next generation. Let’s pump into them some confidence and stability, some hope, some trust, like, let’s start getting that into them, because they’re the next gen for us. And I think they’re going to be fantastic. My daughter is one of them. And I’m kind of looking forward to watching this generation rocket.

Murray Guest  51:45

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that’s a point that you kick that off with that so important that it’s not like, Hey, we’re there. Let’s tick the box. Because as you said, it’s still going, it’s still growing. There’s a depth that’s just evolving all the time. And, you know, let’s be honest, it’s not just Gallup that’s talking about strengths. You know, the amount of times I hear people saying, Hey, this is a good thing. We should be focusing on what people do at their best.

Jim Collison  52:11

Yeah, yeah. And we just have a system to do it. And it’s a pretty great system, I think. But we’ve got a lot of work to do. And you know, at the end of the day, doesn’t matter if, if I’m an Arranger, Woo, Maximizer, Communication, Activator, but it doesn’t matter if I’m not using it. We got to get people out there focusing on that using that for success.

Murray Guest  52:31

Yeah. 100%. Totally agree. I have a couple of questions to wrap us up in this wonderful conversation, let you get back to your Sunday night of relaxing. First question is, What is your definition of inspired energy?

Jim Collison  52:47

Yeah, you asked that on the form, by the way, I don’t ever relax. That’s just not a part of what I do. So let’s, let’s get that done. You know, and I think that maybe fits into my definition of inspired energy. Like, right now I’m in the zone, I can’t, I don’t want to relax. I don’t, I don’t need to relax. For the most part. Even on this vacation that I mentioned I’m going on earlier, it’s kind of a working vacation, I got some things planned. We’re gonna do some fun stuff. But it’s that energy driven when you’re wholly and completely engaged. Those are big definitions that there’s always, there’s always exceptions, right. But when you’re wholly and completely engaged in something, that energy that comes from that, if you ask me, I’d say that’s inspired energy. That’s how I would I would define it.

Murray Guest  53:30

Yeah, and I can feel that in the way you talk about your work and what this has been like for you, and the levels of productivity and satisfaction that you’re playing in. You know, it’s like, there’s exponential building on that energy, isn’t it? Like, yeah, I’m working, but I’ve got more energy.

Jim Collison  53:51

Exactly. You don’t want to stop. I’d say 530. And I’m like, I need to. I’ve been tracking down coaches around the world who I’ve lost contact with, by email. It’s an I have to find them on LinkedIn. It’s incredibly, it’s just manual. And I am pumping through those. I’ve done 1600 of those Muz over the last month and a half, just grinding through them because it needs to be done. Right. It’s just what I need to find these people that’s inspired right? Yeah, I have to find these people.

Murray Guest  54:18

Love it. Love it. And my friend, where’s the best place for people to connect with you online?

Jim Collison  54:25

Well, that’s always a great question, because I’m all over the place. The greatest place to connect with our strengths related work, is at Gallup.com/cliftonstrengths. And there are tons of resources available there, including all these podcasts that we talked about. The last couple years. They have transcripts associated with them. We have pull quotes in there all kinds of great materials. By the way, there’s great folks like Roy and Mark and Micah who do all that with me, right? Pretty, pretty incredible work that they do behind the scenes there. And so that’s really the best kind of way. If you want to, if you have questions about anything at Gallup, it’s easier to remember coaching@gallup.com, if you want to, they’ll route that to me if that’s what needs to go there. But that’s a lot easier than remembering my email address. So coaching@gallup.com.

Murray Guest  55:11

Fantastic. And I’ll make sure there’s links to the Gallup website and to that email, but also the Facebook group for anyone that’s interested in Strengths, if they’re not already a member, because it is such a healthy, generous community as well. So I’m gonna make a shout out to that community as well. Jim, I just want to take a moment to also celebrate, acknowledge the work that you do do. That constant that you have been for all those seasons of Call to Coach and everything else that you do. It’s really the podcast. And also for that community I just mentioned, where you are the backbone. And the head, often around just steering that supporting that creating a space for people to share, to learn to grow to support, and this passion you have to support others, and to lift them up. And to do that, and the strength space movement wouldn’t be where it’s at without that consistent energy and focus you give it and as someone that has been the receiver of that, I can’t thank you enough. Have a beer with you next time in Omaha whenever that is, but on on behalf of the community I want to thank you so much for all that you do.

Jim Collison  56:29

Muz those are very, very kind words. And I appreciate that. And thanks just for the just for being a solid partner out there with us. I couldn’t do this if I was shouting from the mountaintop, and there weren’t people doing things like creating their own podcast. It couldn’t be just me. And so thank you for the work that you do to continue to help get the word out and to coach people in the work that you do and workshops and in the coaching. So thank you.

Murray Guest  57:00

Wonderful, Jim, and I’ve loved our conversation on this podcast. It’s been fantastic, so much gold in this conversation today. Really appreciate it. And certainly, if anyone’s listening, you got something out of this conversation, which I’m sure you did. Please make sure you share it online, tag Jim and myself and also use the hashtag inspired energy. And if you have any questions, as Jim said, make sure you flick those through to coaching@gallup.com. And he will get back to you or someone from the Gallup team will as well. Jim all the best for the remainder of a productive healthy, happy 2020. And I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

Jim Collison  57:38

Yeah you as well. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Murray Guest  57:41

Thank you.

​

Episode 72 – Chris Miller | Strengths Coach, Consultant, Facilitator

In this episode I chat with Chris Miller, an experienced business, executive and personal coach, based in Wellington NZ, who consistently inspires exceptional results

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:02

Welcome, Chris, to the podcast. Great to have you. How are you on this winter morning?

Christopher Miller  00:08

Very well. Thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s nice and sunny, but windy in Wellington.

Murray Guest  00:13

Yeah, Wellington has that that reputation for getting a bit windy and a bit cold, how’s it been?

Christopher Miller  00:20

Oh, it’s been alright. I mean, we’ve traveled winter reasonably well, it hasn’t been brutal as it can be some years. But it’s been certainly manageable, more than manageable.

Murray Guest  00:34

I’d like to invite anyone and everyone actually, if you haven’t been to Wellington, it’s one of my favorite cities, such a great part of the world. I love New Zealand. And I think Wellington is just such a great size, so much to do and see. It’s a beautiful part of the world. How long have you been in Wellington for?

Christopher Miller  00:52

So I’ve been here since 2007. So a good 13 years now, and Wellington has always been home. We haven’t moved around New Zealand. We started up the coast a little bit and then moved into the center of Wellington. And we’ve been here ever since.

Murray Guest  01:09

Yeah, and as I said, great place to visit. I’ve been there a few times. Love it over there. And obviously, this year 2020 has been a challenging year for so many people, COVID in so many different ways. Chris, how have you been? And how’s the business going after all we’ve been experiencing?

Christopher Miller  01:28

Yeah, it’s been interesting, it’s certainly had its challenges. And like you, there’s a lot of transition from quite a substantial amount of face to face work within Wellington, that I that I offset with a lot of telephone coaching work and kind of video consulting from from where I am. But all of my face to face, obviously during COVID had to transition to zoom sessions. And some of my clients were quite big and we’re juggling multiple people and facilitating coaching sessions with lots of input on the client side. And others were just one on one sessions that switch from face to face coaching in cafes or offices to face to face zoom call or even just a telephone call, which I’ve really enjoyed. There’s a little bit of freedom to just being on the phone with the client and being really focused on them and their needs in a way that that is perhaps different to the face to face relationship that I’ve had. So now that we’ve sort of we’ve started to come out, although we’ve gone back into a certain alert level, I’m kind of mixing up my client relationships with a bit of zoom, a bit of face to face, a bit of telephone. And I think clients are appreciating that variety. I mean, some have a preference but most are quite comfortable doing it quite differently now that we’ve all experienced working from home and what comes with it.

Murray Guest  02:58

I totally agree, I think the appetite for online training and you know, doing sessions over zoom and different formats for coaching. From my experience with my clients and other coaches I’ve been talking to, that appetite’s increased. And that desire to have everything face to face, I think, has changed. I’ve certainly moved forward with my business with a sort of hybrid model where there’s a mix of the online and the face to face because I still love that energy you get in the room. But I think the appetite’s changed.

Christopher Miller  03:31

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and I find it interesting. I think everybody kind of went Zoom mad. And we were all doing face to face zoom sessions, and everybody was getting exhausted by the end of a normal day or by Tuesday, you were wiped out. And I think we all learn from that. And I’m really enjoying, I guess, convincing clients the value of an old fashioned telephone call that doesn’t involve video, that doesn’t involve FaceTime, that doesn’t involve whatever. Because you can imagine where the client is. And you can have a very strong heart to heart conversation that doesn’t require seeing their facial mannerisms and being stuck to a screen.

Murray Guest  04:16

I had a leader, funny you say that, I had a leader, one of my clients in the past few weeks, say I’m sick of zoom, just pick up the phone and give me a phone call. 

Christopher Miller  04:24

Yeah, I think I think everybody has felt that. 

Murray Guest  04:27

Yeah. Now you’re doing some amazing work with organizations with a strengths based approach. And that’s one of the reasons I want to get you on the podcast because I love the work that you do and the impact that makes. Can we just go back a bit in your journey; why strengths for you, and how did you get introduced to this whole world of strengths?

Christopher Miller  04:49

Yeah so I’ll backup, even pre strength, I trained, I’m Canadian by origin and I moved to the UK where I had a fairly substantial pharmaceutical career mostly in sales and marketing. And then towards the end of that career, I was a people leader. And I discovered the art of coaching as an extension of my management skill. And I fell in love with coaching. I fell in love with what it does, how it works, how it gets the best out of people. And so I trained as a corporate executive coach with the Coaching Academy in the UK. And then when my wife and I immigrated to New Zealand, I joined a business coaching company and I coached small businesses for about three years. And then I had the opportunity to join Gallup as an employee and if you join Gallup, you’re instantly converted to the strength movement, but if you don’t buy into the strength movement, don’t join Gallup! So that was a real joy for me. I mean, I’m input and learner in my top five, when I landed at Gallup it was like this avalanche of books to read and white papers and files that reference strengths and engagement and all of the science that Gallup does so well. So I trained as a Gallup coach within Gallup. So I was senior consultant for New Zealand, really leading culture change programs based on strengths and engagement. And really fell in love with the science of strengths at that time. And at the time, I kind of started to understand my own top five and my own top 10. And that was really relevant. But I suppose what, with time, and with the, I guess the, the emphasis on strengths within the Gallup family, the relevance of my strengths to my marriage, and my kids, and my hobbies, and my fitness, it just all kind of exploded about three to four years after I understood my profile for the first time. So that was really, that was really fascinating. And that’s one of the things that I really enjoy doing for clients is, this is not a workplace tool, this is a life tool that happens to work in the workplace.

Murray Guest  07:13

I introduced some new leaders to strengths this week, which was fantastic, those initial conversations, and you and I are so aligned, because my conversations were definitely around, this is the start of the journey about understanding your strengths. And if anyone that’s been through the strengths process, we talk about name it, claim it, aim it, and that aiming and even the claiming can take some time, can’t it?

Christopher Miller  07:37

Yeah, it can. One of the one of the things that I realized about my own coaching, though, because I do corporate executive coaching, mostly within Gallup with Gallup clients, and then I do my own private, small business clients within Wellington. My corporate coaching is normally a single session with a full 34 report. And I used to religiously go through the name it, claim it, aim it process. And unfortunately, as is the way, aiming it came in the last 10 to 15 minutes of the conversation, and I kind of went this is not working for executives who have limited time. So I actually turned it on its head and I now do aim it up front. I asked my clients very clearly at the very beginning of the rapport building of the session is what are some of your biggest goals for this year? And what are some of your biggest challenges, and then we do the walkthrough of their top 10 and their bottom five in the context of those challenges, and it brings it to life much, much more fully I find, than leaving aiming it till the end of a call.

Murray Guest  08:47

I love that, turning it around. And I think you’ve articulated something that I’ve been doing, but I haven’t articulated as well as, as what you just stepped us through. I’ve had clients say to me in my coaching sessions, they say, so tell me, what do I do with my strengths? And then my question back to them is, so what are you trying to achieve? Or what are your goals or what you’re trying to overcome? And we’ll talk about that. And then how do your strengths help you in one of those situations? So yeah, I love how you’ve really thought openly about let’s turn that around.

Christopher Miller  09:18

And don’t get me wrong. That was like a two year process. It didn’t happen overnight. But I kind of had a wake up call one day when I went, I’m coaching the C suite team. And they don’t have time for faffing around on kind of a bit of navel gazing. They really need it to have an impact very early.

Murray Guest  09:38

Yeah, that’s such a good point. And I think, again, thinking about what’s the partnership with a client or a coachee and how much time you have to then best serve them. Because if it’s like a 10 session partnership where you’re working through a number of processes, you might change that process around. So you mentioned strengths has impacted you personally and professionally. If you were to pick one of your top five that’s really made a difference in your life, or a couple, what ones stand out for you?

Christopher Miller  10:08

Yeah, they all have. My number one is interesting because Maximizer for me was kind of mid teens when I first did Strengths Finder, and when I first did Clifton strengths. And then I redid it when I became self employed, when I left the corporate world and became self employed, Maximizer moved from like 17 to number one. And I couldn’t figure out why it had made such a big switch but in time I’ve just fallen in love with it over and over and over again. And so that energy of constant never ending improvement when you are self employed, right, you have to be self motivated to keep improving your business every day, keep improving your client relationships every day. And even in my personal life, the energy of without going over the top with it, but the energy of improving my relationship with my wife and my relationship with my sons. It’s always in my mind, not in an overt way. But I know there’s a piece of me that wants to keep making things better. And several years when I first realized that when it first made the jump from kind of lower down my list to to number one, I kind of fell into the Maximizer trap, which is the perfectionist, making things perfect every step of the way. And I’ve softened on myself, right? My standards for myself were just too high. And I was creating a lot of pressure for myself that was unnecessary, and to be able to relax it and just enjoy the journey of tomorrow will be a little bit better than today. Just make that happen. That it’s been a great philosophy for me to adopt.

Murray Guest  12:01

I have Maximizer number 12. And I reckon early in my life would have been higher. Because as you’re talking through the way you see the world and the way the Maximizer shows up for you, I totally connect with that. I just want to check in you said you’ve done the assessment twice. Did you have much other changing in your dominant strengths and talents when you redid the assessment?

Christopher Miller  12:24

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I did my first assessment was when I joined Gallup, and that was in 2010. And then I set up my own business in September 2017. And in late 2017 or early 2018 I did it the second time. And I really did it on the premise that my mindset as an self employed entrepreneur was very different to my mindset as an employee. And that was my rationale for doing it twice. Now the interesting thing is nine out of my top 13 remain the same. So nine out of my top 13 remain the same, but the four that were added, were very relevant to life as a life in self employment. So Maximizer at number one, my connectedness also came up to number three, my self assurance came up. And that confidence, that ability, like I never would have, I probably grew into the courage to launch my own business. And it was reflected in the movement of my self assurance, which was really interesting.

Murray Guest  13:34

Well, I think those numbers that you just talked us through are consistent with the research of Don Clifton around that repeatability of the assessments. Which is great to hear. And, and certainly my journey, you know, five and a half years ago started my own business, isn’t just a switch overnight, you don’t just go, oh I’ll start a business. Yeah, there’s a journey there. But yeah, I love that that awareness that you’ve got. Can I ask though, is there anything that dropped out of your dominant talents that surprised you?

Christopher Miller  14:05

Well, the funny thing was my I had originally memorized and committed to growing my top 10. And communication was in my top five, in my old pattern, and communication dropped to 13. As as a result of that, I decided I was going to memorize my top 13. So they became my dominant themes. And interestingly enough my relator and strategic are at, sorry, strategic then relator at 14 and 15, I became more aware of the way I was using those in over the last couple of years and I just decided that 15 was a relevant threshold to to acknowledge my dominant themes, but communication dropping out of my top 10 and me being so wedded to being a good communicator, and being proud of having communication originally in my top five meant that I committed my dominant themes much lower down my list.

Murray Guest  15:07

Yeah, and I agree with you there in the the understanding of our dominant group is somewhere, honestly, over my years what I’ve experienced with people I work with it sort of sits somewhere around between 10, maybe 15, 16, where that sort of shifts from that dominant to that sort of, some of the time that I live those strengths. And I can hear your communication still there, Chris, don’t worry, it hasn’t dropped too much. So tell me a bit about how when you partner with a client, you leverage purpose values and strengths to shape their culture.

Christopher Miller  15:50

I love aiming strengths. But in particular, I love aiming strengths at culture as defined by purpose and values. So what a lot of organizations have been reasonably good at is kind of developing a commentary for themselves around purpose and values. But what it misses for me is the journey for the individual of defining their purpose and their values. So I do a lot of sequential facilitation processes that allow a client to discover purpose at an individual level, as well as a collective level, discover and acknowledge values at an individual level and the collective level, right? The values of someone who’s in your business who’s a parent, are different to the values of a millennial who isn’t a parent yet. They’re just different. But if you don’t acknowledge that before you write the values for the organization, then you come out with a list of commentary that half the room doesn’t get or doesn’t accept.

Murray Guest  16:59

And we’re trying to squeeze everyone into matching a set of values.

Christopher Miller  17:03

Well, that’s right. That’s right. And values are not a rule book to live by. They are a philosophy that we agree with. They’re an energy, right, that we all kind of go Yeah, that’s how we want to be seen. That’s how we want to be portrayed. That’s how we want to treat other people. And that formula of building purpose at the individual level, values at the individual level, and then purpose at the organizational level, values at the organizational level, and then asking, how does our strengths profile allow us to express our values and our purpose?

Murray Guest  17:45

Yeah, yeah. And I love what strengths brings from that self awareness of myself and others, and that values understanding for self and others. And that’s just another lens, isn’t it, for understanding how we see the world, how we want to show up and live in the world as well.

Christopher Miller  18:03

That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely, absolutely. And I find it really fascinating that when people both start by separating and then integrating purpose, values and strengths, it takes a different life, it has a different flavor. So when you’ve decided what we care about most in life, and what we care about most at work. And you can overlay that with we are an influencing team or we are an executing team or we are a relationship building team, even after they’ve built the values, you can see the strengths reflected in the language they’ve chosen.

Murray Guest  18:41

Yeah.

Christopher Miller  18:42

Even when you do it without the team grid present in those sessions.

Murray Guest  18:47

For the organization’s you work with, is there a set sequence in which you explore this, that you think works better than others?

Christopher Miller  18:56

Yeah, it’s usually purpose for the individuals, purpose for the organization, values for the individuals, values for the organization. And then how do we aim our strengths at all of that?

Murray Guest  19:10

Yeah, great.

Christopher Miller  19:12

That’s usually it, varies sometimes, but that’s usually the sequence.

Murray Guest  19:16

Yeah. Okay. And at the moment, are you finding that there’s a reset? And we talked a little bit about this before we started recording today, a bit of a reset around values and purpose with all that’s happening in 2020 do you think?

Christopher Miller  19:35

Yeah, there is, it almost feels a bit early. I think people are, some individuals have the energy to bring that to the table like now and they want to change things now. Most organizations are still so uncertain of lockdown, no lockdown, partial lockdown. What does the future hold? Where are we going? Like they’re definitely, they’re there. They’ve definitely had kind of lightbulb moments at home, working from home going, we really should reconsider, think again, about our purpose and values. But I’m not convinced that they are. I’m not convinced that they have thought about the foundations or that they’re in the right emotional mindset to actually start articulating that well. And it depends. Geographically I know, there are things going on in Australia that are different to New Zealand, and different organizations are at different stages of readiness. But I just get the sense that there’s still so much uncertainty about the world, and even our countries, that people are not entirely convinced that a purpose and values exercise are going to bear fruit right now. Early 2021, I suspect may be a good place to start.

Murray Guest  20:57

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it goes back to your process about we need to understand purpose and values at an individual level, because 2020’s journey for each person has been very, very different. And taking that into account right now is too early. We’re still in the midst of it in many areas.

Christopher Miller  21:20

Well, are people leaders brave enough to even tackle the topic of individual purpose, individual values, because that’s a very different, that’s a very different process to what most organizations follow. Most organizations are very good at putting everybody in the room and saying, why do we exist? What is our purpose as an organization, but nobody asked, what is your individual purpose as a people leader? What is your individual purpose as a contributor? What does that look like? How do we capture the organization? How do we make the organizational purpose resonate with your reason for being here?

Murray Guest  21:56

So if someone’s listening to our conversation, and they’re thinking, Well, I have no idea what my purpose is? What’s your advice to that?

Christopher Miller  22:09

It starts in a couple of different ways. I mean, it depends on what their talents are and what their strengths are. I went deep on the literature, right? So Simon Sinek’s publication, Start With Why, not just the purpose led, so Good To Great for example, the Jim Collins classic, talks about purpose at an organizational level, but I kind of extrapolated from that, and ask myself, okay, what coaching questions can I build that elicit a purpose response for me personally, like I did it for myself? And, and it was very much along the lines of just asking, Well, why, why am I here? And what am I here to contribute? And what I was able to do is crystallize, let’s say, it’s probably half a dozen questions along those lines that I’ve now put into a resource that I use with my clients. And it’s and I call it a purpose creator, which is a bit fancy, but the premise is just find the question that resonates with you most, right? What legacy do you want to leave? There are lots of different ways to ask a purpose led question. But your ability to find the right question after the right walk through nature, or sitting by the beach, or being at home with a cup of tea, like whatever the right moment is for you, ask yourself some purpose-led questions and see what comes up. Because somewhere inside you is your purpose. And you know what it is, you’ve just never asked yourself those questions.

Murray Guest  23:45

Yeah, and I think a critical part that you are exploring right now is it’s actually taking the preparation time, not just thinking, alright, I’m gonna work on my purpose right now. It’s, there’s the getting in the right mindset, getting in the right environment, and giving it the time it needs to actually explore it with some self reflection or with some coaching from someone like yourself to actually unpack that, you know, with the right questions. And I think you allude to something also, which I really think is important, is the purpose of someone at different life stages and life areas can be quite different. So someone that’s, you know, in their 60s, that’s been an executive for some time, they might be really focused on legacy versus someone in their 20s. They might be quite different. And that’s not wrong. It’s about Okay, let’s understand what that is for you right now.

Christopher Miller  24:42

Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, and I like to highlight for people mostly when I’m in a workshop environment, rather than one on one. But it’s that spirit of human beings, we are the only living creature on the planet who’s been given the privilege. Being able to rewrite their purpose every single day. So if you want to rewrite your purpose every single day, or create a unique purpose for that day, you can. Now there are lots of people who advocate, you need a purpose for a certain season in your life, or you need a purpose that transcends your entire life. There’s lots of different ways to do it. But the really powerful bit about it is the fact that we are capable of articulating our own purpose, however long you want to live with it.

Murray Guest  25:31

Yeah, and that sounds exciting. To then think about, well, then what’s possible. And I love that, again, want to draw attention to get some clarity in that, invest in that and then start to think about Okay, how can I live my purpose through my strengths?

Christopher Miller  25:48

Yes, yes. Because you and I know that a typically brilliant execution specialist will express a purpose and will live their purpose very differently to a strategic thinker. So your purpose will always be right. But the way you transact that purpose or pursue that purpose may look very different depending on your strength profile.

Murray Guest  26:15

Yeah, yeah. Awesome, awesome. So I also know that you’ve got some great resources on your website, we’ll make sure in the show notes of the podcast that draw people to that. And I think that’s going to also help them explore this a bit more as well. I also want to ask you, Chris, about a love most matrix. I mean, I love the name of it to start with. Tell us about that.

Christopher Miller  26:44

Yeah, sure. So the love most matrix came from my belief, my fundamental belief in strengths philosophy, and knowing that not everybody jumps to knowing their profile overnight, right? So because there are so many people who haven’t been exposed to Clifton strengths, or they’ve done these assessments before and they haven’t bought into it, or there’s something as a, there’s a mental barrier for them to even engage in the strength language. I thought to myself, wouldn’t it be cool if I could design a tool that allowed people to talk strengths without necessarily needing their own profile? And, and that’s where the love matrix came about. And so the love most matrix is, is very simple. It’s only four quadrants, but it’s sitting in a room with an individual or a team and asking them, what do you love most at work or life? What do you love least at work or life? What do you do best? And what do you do worst? At an individual level, it’s really enlightening, because an individual can start owning what they love least and do worst and going, I need to get rid of those. I got to negotiate my way out of those. But at a team level, at team sessions I love because I’ll do it on a whiteboard. And I’ll put everybody’s names down the left hand side, and I’ll put the love most matrix across the top. And I’ll capture everybody’s responses as they give them to each box, right? And it only works when there’s a lot of trust in the team because you have to be willing to really put it out there that you hate something that you’re paid to do. But when you look at the grid, and you start seeing people going, I can’t believe you love that. I hate doing that. Would you mind doing more of that for me? And they start like horse trading in the room based on the love most love least pattern, right? Or the do worse/do best pattern. And it’s just really, it’s a joy to watch people walk through it. Because they kind of go I’m allowed, I’m allowed to admit. And I’m allowed to acknowledge with my boss in the room, that I hate that aspect of my job.

Murray Guest  28:58

Sorry, I’m getting excited. I’m picturing it on the whiteboard. I’m picturing that energy in the room when people are sharing and bring to the surface, maybe some of those things that they may be in the past or just going I have to do this. I don’t want to do it. Now I’ve got the permission to say, you know what, I really just don’t like doing that at all.

Christopher Miller  29:16

Yeah. And and it allows a really valuable next conversation, which is okay, you don’t like that aspect of your job? How do we negotiate that? Can we outsource it? Can we hand it to another member of the team? Can the boss do it? What is our strategy? Or if it has to remain with that individual, how do you leverage your strengths to make that side more palatable, more enjoyable?

Murray Guest  29:43

I love that, Chris, because, again, one of the things I make sure I talk to everyone about when we talk about strengths is it’s not an excuse. So you’ve got this awareness that that’s where my dominant strengths and talents lie, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t, you know, for example, I’ve got a report that’s due, disciplines low, so I just do the report whenever I get around to it. No, no, it’s due on its due date. I’m actually thinking this is a powerful tool for families as well.

Christopher Miller  30:17

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, because in a lot of cases, the kids especially will feel, I guess, a little bit trapped, if they’re faced with a loved least activity or a do worst activity. And they’re kinda like, I know, Mom and Dad want me to do this better. But I don’t have the energy or I don’t have the talent, or I don’t have the desire to get any better at it. So as a parent, you look at the love most and do best stuff and say, Well, how do we fill 99% of your week with those activities? Because you’re going to have a happier child instantly.

Murray Guest  30:58

So Chris, I’ll get back to you within a week about the impact this has on my family. So kids watch out we’re going to be exploring, who’s going to do the dishes and, and mop the floor. Okay.

Christopher Miller  31:13

Well, but the other the other way that I that I look at the tasks that everybody loves least is, what do we have to inject to make it enjoyable, right? Put the music on, dance with the mop, do something fun, tell jokes, have the TV on in the background, whatever, like do something that makes it a more enjoyable process. Because nobody likes doing that activity. Potentially.

Murray Guest  31:37

Yeah, yeah. I’m also obviously seeing the impact this can have for an intact team, where there is work that’s allocated, or work that needs to be done, and just again, bring to the surface around how do we get that work done with a real strengths based and love based approach.

Christopher Miller  31:57

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Or, or my motivation for doing something I don’t like changes if I can, if I can do it through the lens of one of my top five, for example, like if I see it as, if I have high competition, and I see it as beating my brother or sister, well, it becomes a very different activity to have to do the dishes.

Murray Guest  32:20

Yes. And that’s the again, the essence of aiming your strengths to achieve something versus how do I just go about living my strengths? Thank you. That’s a great walkthrough of the love most matrix. And I’d love to know if anyone takes the initiative from what Chris just talked through and applies that with their team. And if you do, please let Chris and I know, tag us on social media, because it sounds like a powerful thing. And of course, reach out to Chris, I’m sure we can help you work with your team on that as well. So Chris, tell me what’s on your plate right now, what are some of the things you’re working on currently?

Christopher Miller  33:02

So I am in the process during lockdown in New Zealand, I knew I kind of solidified my local clients, and I moved them all to phone and zoom. And that all went well. But I lost a lot of my international clients because their markets were so disrupted by COVID-19. And so I had some extra time on my hands. And I used it to really look at my own practice development, right? How am I going to change as a business, in terms of putting myself into the marketplace. So I have been investing in a new website, and have also invested in a magazine that will come out within the next six weeks or so. So that’s been, that’s been a huge amount of work, because the magazine itself is a booklet of client stories, impact on clients, tools that have been used, how those tools have been used with those clients, and then examples of the resources themselves in the magazine itself. So that’s been a big part of my energy lately. What’s been nice in the last, I would say three or four weeks is that some, because the world has gotten a little more stable or a little more used to COVID-19 that my international executive coaching has started to drift back. I’ve also had more leads for my local clients or potentially more new local clients. So my business development effort and my engagement with international clients has has gone up a little bit on top of kind of executing the final throes of the website and the insights magazine. So that’s been really rewarding and I’m going to be, I’m really proud of it. It’s not quite finished yet, but I’m really proud of how it looks at the moment.

Murray Guest  34:58

I’m really excited for that magazine and I look forward to reading that. I mean, that’s a great piece to do, to invest in time to really capture the impact of what you’ve done with your clients. So yeah, really look forward to that coming out in the coming weeks. And of course, your new website, I know what that can be like, that’s a bit of a journey. Sometimes it is. Yeah, so well done on investing the time in that as well. On your website, though, at the moment, you’ve got some work you’ve invested in, your purpose and values, which I think is fantastic, the way you’ve done that, and you’re living and breathing, the type of work you do with your clients. So if anyone wants to check out Chris’s website, either now or the new version, you’re going to see that which I think is great. But something else you’ve got, which to be honest, I haven’t seen on a website before is your greatest imaginable challenges. You got these three things outlined there. And again, I love this. Tell me where that came from. And if you can talk us through those, that’d be great.

Christopher Miller  35:58

I was really, one of my favorite business development books that I actively used extensively in business coaching was Good To Great by Jim Collins, and in Good To Great Jim Collins talks a lot about organizations having a big hairy audacious goal. And everybody, kind of most people, in the business will know that term now. He coined it. It’s very relevant and very special. But I found that a couple of things. One, the big, hairy, audacious goal felt organizational, not individual. And also the word audacious felt very North American to me, and I’m a Canadian, so I kind of went that just irks me sometimes using that language. So I reflected on the three pillars that Jim advocated building a big, hairy, audacious goal and adapted it to an individual. So it is still all about passion. What are you most passionate about? What do you do best in life? What are you best at? And where can you add most value to yourself? Or others? Right? So those are the three principles. And that’s how I coach greatest manageable challenge, I ask those three questions, and I get people to answer them individually to start with. And then I ask them to look at them collectively. And ask yourself, how did they come together? What is your Mount Everest for the next 10 to 20 years of your life? And you can have many, you don’t have to have one, you can have several. But I’ll give you an example in my life. My wife loves cycling, she loves cycling, but she cycles on her own, she doesn’t cycle in a club, she just goes out on her own and cycles. She also, what she does best is she always finishes what she starts, she always finishes what she starts. And in terms of adding value, she knew she wanted to have a meaningful achievement before we left the UK, in this kind of domain. And so she woke up one morning and said, I’m going to cycle the length of Great Britain. And I said, pardon. I said what?! And at the time we had a three year old at home, and she was cycling, but not all that aggressively. And I thought, well, how are you going to do that? Like, how are you going to train for that? And then how are you actually going to execute it. And we learned within four weeks, she had worked out a training plan, she had booked all the bed and breakfasts, eight to 10 weeks later, we were down in Cornwall, starting at Land’s End. And she got on her bike and myself and my three year old son, our eldest son at the time, sat in the car and we picked her up at the end of every day. And we dropped her off at the beginning of every day. And she solo cycled 17 days, up the length of Great Britain. And that was her greatest imaginable challenge. So it can be work related, it can be fitness related, it can be academic, it can be whatever, but just find something you’re passionate about. Find something that plays to your strengths, and find something that you know will add value to you or your family or your community. And see where it leads you because that’s what great lives are made of. I figure we can all get caught in the normalcy of a nine to five just doing stuff. Whereas the greatest imaginable challenge is like a light at the end of the tunnel that says okay, that’s the big thing I’m going to accomplish in the next 10 years.

Murray Guest  39:45

So what’s one of your great imaginable challenges that you’d love to share right now?

Christopher Miller  39:51

Ah, so yeah, thanks, Murray. Probably the most relevant one at the moment. I’m really, I kind of left, I very much moved back from the corporate world into small business coaching with an intention, I had a real reason behind it. I love small businesses, I love owning one. I love helping other owners of small businesses. I love the fact that in most countries around the world, small businesses are like the engine of the economy when you get right down to it. And so I’ve set myself an objective of meaningfully influencing the GDP of New Zealand by investing in the small to medium sized enterprise sector. And, and I have a role model in mind. There, there was a guy named Edward Deming, who was quite famous in the two decades after World War Two. And he went to Japan and helped Japan recover from World War Two. And he was the father of total quality management and continuous quality improvement, like he changed a country. Not single handed. There were a lot of other people who contributed, but he was a catalyst for that.

Murray Guest  41:07

And can I just say, in a real legacy, I mean, Deming is still referred to today for that impact around TQM and continuous improvement.

Christopher Miller  41:16

Yeah, absolutely. And so my own investment in small business coaching, but more than that, it’s more than coaching. It’s me developing intellectual property, like the love most matrix and tools that people can use that are useful and transform a business quite quickly. That’s, that’s where my heart is. And I, again, it’s a 10 to 15 year vision for me, I have, I love what I do. And I see myself working at least that long, if not longer. And so our intention as a family is to be in New Zealand, and for my target market to be very much New Zealand small businesses. And that’s a real dream of mine, if I can, if I can make it happen.

Murray Guest  42:05

I love that, Chris, and thank you for letting me put you on the spot. And thank you for sharing that. Because I think that’s very inspiring to to myself and to other people that do work like we do about getting real clarity in the impact and the why of what you do, and having that long term vision. So you’ve got me thinking more deeply, and how I can get greater clarity in that for myself. So I’ve got a bit of homework out of this podcast, which is awesome, I got to get back to you on that. 

Christopher Miller  42:35

Good. I know a good coach who can help you. 

Murray Guest  42:39

I’ll be in contact, don’t worry. I want to ask a few rapid fire questions. And then we’ll just wrap up with a few more things. But I hope you’re can strap in for a few rapid fire questions. So as someone high in input and learner, if you were to recommend a few books for a leader, what would you recommend?

Christopher Miller  43:10

I would start with Strengths Based Leadership, just because it combines the philosophy of strengths with leadership styles so well. And it articulates the needs of followers in the context of that leadership style. So all of that book is fantastic by Tom Rath, that would be a really good place to start. I think from an organizational point of view, I’d go back to Good to Great, even though it’s dated now. And many of the companies that were assessed, they’ve all gone through lots of change since the book was published, but the principles of the chapters, right, ‘the power of and’, the ‘bhag’, ‘core purpose’, ‘core values’, all of them are principles that a small business or a big business should be following, because they have stood the test of time, and they have created some of the best organizations in the world. So those would be a couple that I’d start with. 

Murray Guest  44:17

Okay so Strengths Based Leadership and Good To Great, fantastic. What’s your definition of culture?

Christopher Miller  44:23

Culture, for me, is how we treat each other and how we treat all of our stakeholders. So internally, it’s leadership and followers. It’s individual contributors with each other. It’s team atmosphere. It’s the how we treat each other as human beings, and what principles do we use to treat our clients and to treat our strategic partners? That for me is what culture is.

Murray Guest  44:57

Yeah, fantastic. If there was one place you could travel in the world right now, if there was no restrictions. Where would you love to go? 

Christopher Miller  45:08

Home to Halifax, Nova Scotia. 

Murray Guest  45:10

Well, that was pretty quick. Yep. Okay, gotcha. If there was anything you could eat right now, without any trouble, if there was like this go to meal that you just wish you could have. What would that be? 

Christopher Miller  45:24

Atlantic lobster. 

Murray Guest  45:25

Oh, in Nova Scotia? I guess? 

Christopher Miller  45:27

That’s right. 

Murray Guest  45:31

Okay. And what’s one of your strengths that’s right down the bottom of your 34 that you are just totally okay with it sitting there.

Christopher Miller  45:46

Yeah, my discipline is pretty low. And I find it really hilarious because a lot of people see me as incredibly productive and very reliable. But I do it without discipline. I do it without routine and structure. I just, I use other strengths to prioritize. But I don’t need a schedule necessarily. So yeah, I’m not, I’m not bothered that it’s at the bottom of my list. It just is what it is. 

Murray Guest  46:14

Understand. Totally got that. And last question, if someone was visiting Wellington, where do you think would be one of the first places they should go?

Christopher Miller  46:27

Te Papa. Te Papa is the National Museum and it’s extraordinary. I mean, even I’ve seen a number of great museums around the world, and Te Papa ranks right up there with what’s the best.

Murray Guest  46:41

So for someone as high in relator, relator number one, I throw questions at people about a whole range of areas of their life, and you’ve answered those quite well. So thank you for opening up, Chris, really appreciate that. And in my trips to Wellington, I haven’t been to the museum. So that’s going up to top of my list. So thank you for that. This is the inspired energy podcast. And I ask everyone this question, What is your definition of inspired energy?

Christopher Miller  47:14

Inspired energy, to me, is built on fulfillment. And fulfillment for me is living your purpose every single day. So inspired energy is your opportunity to live your purpose and feel fulfilled with your life. And that’s a choice thing. That’s not a circumstance thing. That’s a choice. You can choose to feel fulfilled every single day.

Murray Guest  47:42

Love it, love it. Thank you so much. I totally resonate with the power of choice in that. And obviously, there’s a great link there to mindset and the way we approach our situation. And again, links back to your exploration of purpose today, and how important that is. So thank you. And I’ve loved this chat. I’ve been watching you, stalking you online for a while. The great work you do and we’ve met through meetups, and it’s just been so great to just have this conversation today and take the opportunity to share your knowledge and wisdom. So Chris, thank you so much for your generosity in this conversation. 

Christopher Miller  48:26

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Murray Guest  48:29

If you want to find out more about Chris, check out his website, Christophermiller.co.nz and there’ll be a link to that in the show notes. And if you’ve got something from this conversation, which I’m sure you did, Christopher covered so much great examples, resources and strategies you can do. So please, if you’ve got something out of any of this conversation, share it on social media, particularly LinkedIn and tag Christopher and myself, because we’d love to know about that. Chris, all the best for the remainder of 2020, the launch of your magazine, your new website, keep doing the awesome work you do and I look forward to staying in touch. 

Christopher Miller  49:08

Fantastic. Thanks, Murray. 

Murray Guest  49:09

Thanks, mate.

​

Episode 71 – Brigette Landy | Recruitment & Strengths

In this episode I chat with Brigette Landy, a passionate recruiter who loves helping businesses solve their people needs.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

So Brige, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to be catching up with you on this bit of a cold winter’s morning. How are you? 

Brigette Landy  00:09

Yeah, I’m well, thanks Muz. I’m very happy to be here. And thanks for the invite. 

Murray Guest  00:14

I’ve known you for a number of years, and I’ve loved your passion for recruitment and everything that you do. And I’m really looking forward to exploring recruitment, and particularly that customer experience niche that you focus on. How have you been, though, before we get into all that stuff, just in the last few months with COVID? And all that that’s brought us in 2020?

Brigette Landy  00:37

It’s such a fun question, isn’t it? Look, I think most people would agree that it’s been turbulent. I’ve been well, I’ve had my ups and downs, definitely. Especially with three months of working from home in isolation. That truly sent me crazy towards the end of it. So I was really happy to get back to the office. I think it was about a month ago now. And we’ve been able to find a really nice balance of office time and work from home time. We’ve got full flexibility to do that. So kind of balancing out now which is great.

Murray Guest  01:17

So what do you think has been the best and the worst of working from home?

Brigette Landy  01:21

Okay, the best part would be hanging out with Evie all day every day.

Murray Guest  01:26

And Evie is your dog? 

Brigette Landy  01:29

Yeah, the fur child. The worst part would probably be seeing the awful things that she gets up to. She ate a full live bird the other day, she caught a little bird. And yeah, I was trying to chase her to save the bird. But she wouldn’t let me chase her and instead she she gobbled the whole thing down. Beak, feet and all. It was horrifying.

Murray Guest  01:56

Let’s be clear, what sort of dog is Evie? 

Brigette Landy  01:59

Evie is a big standard poodle. Yeah, she’s a big girl. Super cute, but not when she does things like that. 

Murray Guest  02:10

Yeah, of course, I understand. But I mean, you get to experience part of the wild while you’re working from home, which is cool. 

Brigette Landy  02:16

That’s right. 

Murray Guest  02:17

I’m surprised you didn’t say something like tracksuit pants or you know, leisure wear at home all the time. You know?

Brigette Landy  02:23

Maybe the ugg boots? But yeah, definitely hanging with the dog. The worst part was, in reality, was not being around my people, though. That was really hard. I mean, we did daily zooms. But that just doesn’t match up to in person, real face time.

Murray Guest  02:42

I’ve even been talking to a few clients who admittedly say they are introverts. And they’ve also shared that whilst they are an introvert, they’ve missed just that day to day connection, even sitting by someone else in the office and just knowing that they’re there. And you’re sort of saying it a bit, I think lightheartedly, but I think you’re also absolutely correct that the heaviness and the the struggle it’s been for a lot of people being away from their tribe, away from their team they normally work with, it’s been difficult.

Brigette Landy  03:15

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, the amount of change that everyone has been going through, it does create so much weight for everyone. I mean, my top strength is adaptability, right, which means I can change quickly. But as a leader, you have to manage that change for everyone around you and the people that you’re there to support. And it’s it’s a massive thing. I learnt so much about change over the last three months.

Murray Guest  03:45

Yeah, I bet you have. When you think about your team that you lead, what have you also learned about the importance of, you know, connecting with them and these past few months?

Brigette Landy  03:58

Yeah, it’s, it’s super important. I think what I’ve learnt is that we do need that face to face time, we do need that people time. We work in recruitment, of course we’re people, people. But it is so important to connect, and be there for each other and to communicate with each other.

Murray Guest  04:21

Mm hmm. What I’ve also noticed with a number of clients that I’ve been talking to is the frequency of communicating is more often and they’ve really enjoyed that, as opposed to previously maybe saving up conversations or things to talk about in a project for a meeting, which is more spaced out. So that frequency is increased. The other thing is meetings seem to be more effective. Yes, there’s zoom fatigue and ohh not another bloody zoom meeting. But when they’re having those meetings it’s like we’re a bit more switched on, a bit more focused. Have you found similar, do you think, as well?

Brigette Landy  04:56

Definitely. I think when we started we were probably not as effective on zoom. But over the months we’ve definitely adapted and put more structure in place to our meetings, and they are super effective. We get in, half an hour, we’re out, and we can get on with our day. But that time is so valuable as well. Yeah it’s been great.

Murray Guest  05:18

Yeah. And you mentioned change. Obviously, change has been frequent, rapid. Let’s throw in some more adjectives. 

Brigette Landy  05:27

Oh it’s painful sometimes. And, you know, in our world, we’ve got, we’re dealing with all of our clients that are in pain, we’re dealing with so many candidates that are in pain, downturn in business, redundancies, restructures. You know, it’s just huge change for people to deal with. And one thing that you taught me actually was that change is not, you know, there’s no start and end to change. I don’t think it’s, it’s more circular or goes in cycles. So, with the individuals in my team, I found that, you know, we might, one of them might be at the acceptance stage, but any small trigger could loop them back so quickly to fear and anger. So, one of the biggest things that I learnt was to expect that and not be so shocked when someone goes from that, you know, more positive end to the more nervous and frustrated end.

Murray Guest  06:25

Yeah, so I think that’s fantastic to expect it and make it okay.

Brigette Landy  06:31

Make it okay. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, not not fight that as well, you need to accept it and work with it and help that person along.

Murray Guest  06:40

Hmm. So for people listening right now, that maybe don’t have that insight into what it’s been like in the recruitment industry for the past, you know, six months. You know, no one would have obviously thought 2020 was going to start like this, what has it been like for recruitment? 

Brigette Landy  07:00

Look it’s been challenging, as I mentioned at the start, you know, I’d be surprised to hear anyone that said it hasn’t been challenging. But for SAS recruitment and HR, we’re quite lucky to have quite diverse service offerings. So things stayed fairly stable across our engineering supply chain and industrial businesses, had a little bit of a dip, but it was stable for most of that COVID period. And our HR consulting services, obviously, they had a lot of outplacement to do as you expect, but definitely not in my world. My world was hit the hardest. And my team. So I recruit, me and my team recruit, finance, administration, customer experience, marketing and sales. And the businesses that we work with anyway, they’re the positions that they got rid of, straight up, you know, they don’t, they didn’t need salespeople anymore. They weren’t looking to, you know, employ marketing people, even our temporary customer service and admin people, they were finished up earlier than expected, a lot of businesses had permanent staff that they needed to redeploy into those temporary positions. So we were hit really hard in my team, and that’s why I feel like we’ve probably experienced a lot more change than some of the other parts of the business. We restructured. We lost one person from our team. And yeah, that hit us all really hard. But in terms of the recruitment world it is coming back to life. Thankfully. It’s been really interesting, actually. As soon as restrictions lifted, businesses thought yes, we need to rebuild. Let’s hire salespeople. So

Murray Guest  08:51

The switch was turned back on straightaway.

Brigette Landy  08:53

Yeah turned back on, I think, in June and July, I think we had about 10 sales jobs to work on each month. And, you know, just for sales, after such a drop off during COVID, that’s pretty good. So and thankfully, we’ve got awesome candidate managers that were able to, you know, just look through our networks and, and fill those jobs straight from our existing talent pools. So it was, you know, really quick and easy processes, but really valuable as well. So that was really good to see, and other trends that we’re seeing at the moment is clients opting for unbundled services. So rather than engaging us to fill a role completely from end to end, recruitment, processing, or I guess, is choosing to engage us for a certain part of the process. So whether that’s, you know, video interviews, or whether it’s reference checking, or whether it’s searching and coming up with a long list and then handing it over to the client. So chopping up those portions and offering parts of the service as opposed to the full service has been really appealing to some clients.

Murray Guest  10:05

Yeah, I can imagine that flexibility in your processes that helps support different clients in different ways. And, you know, adaptability, number one showing again, awesome for the way that you can see, because I’m sure different clients have different needs. And that’s the individualness I’ve seen in companies and people and teams right now. It’s all very different, isn’t it? It’s not just, it’s impacting everyone the same way. Yeah. Well, I’m also thinking about recruitment being an emotional journey anyway, you know when someone goes for a job, or when someone’s hiring someone and they want the, the exact candidate they’re looking for to fit their team. And there’s additional emotions right now of how important it is. How are you ensuring that your team keeps their emotions up? And doesn’t take on maybe some of that heaviness with all the emotional journey of all the candidates and the people you’re working with?

Brigette Landy  11:04

That’s a really difficult question. But thankfully, my team at the moment are very resilient. You know, they’ve been through what was probably the hardest, it was the hardest time of my career, to be honest, that peak of COVID in those few months. So they’ve been through that. And I think now that they’re seeing some positivity out in the market, you know, they’re not carrying that weight as much anymore. Throughout the three months, it was challenging. As I’ve mentioned, you really had to help people through the change, make sure you connected with them, and stayed in touch with them, doing what you can to support them.

Murray Guest  11:39

And so I can imagine celebrating those little wins are really important along the way to keep that momentum and keep that positive energy along the way.

Brigette Landy  11:47

Yeah, definitely. We’ve had a few little team celebrations, obviously. So but you know, you’ve got to find little ways like that to celebrate, don’t you?

Murray Guest  12:01

Yeah. 100%. So 16 years at Forsythes Recruitment and HR. 

Brigette Landy  12:08

Yes! Why? 

Murray Guest  12:10

Well, congratulations. 

Brigette Landy  12:11

Thanks so much. 

Murray Guest  12:13

And as you know, in recruitment, that length of service isn’t as common these days as it used to be. So I think it’s definitely a testimony to the company you work for and the type of work you do. So that’s awesome. Great to celebrate this week.

Brigette Landy  12:28

Thank you so much. I’ve actually got a post coming out today that acknowledges that and answers a lot of the questions that I face when I tell people that I’ve been with Forsythes for 16 years. And especially because I’m still, you know, in my early 30s, I’m not in my mid 30s till next week. But yeah, it’s it’s, it’s been a ride, that’s for sure, but just so much fun. I work with such awesome people, they’re all a bunch of legends, very supportive, and would help you with anything. The team is awesome. They’re all really smart, really driven, like guns. They’re customer obsessed, which is a huge passion of mine, that customer experience and customer obsession. Which is another reason I say I love recruiting in that niche.

Murray Guest  13:18

So can I ask why recruiting? What drew you to recruitment?

Brigette Landy  13:25

I was thinking about this this morning, actually, I didn’t even know what the word recruitment meant, until about four days into my role at Forsythes. So I was just a little junior burger, straight out of high school. And I remember my first few days, and I was looking at all of these timesheets for temporary people that apparently worked for us. And I’m like, but where are they? And? Yeah, after a few days, I worked it out. Um, so I didn’t choose recruitment, to start with initially, but now definitely, I just love working with businesses to solve their people needs. And I love being part of that solution. In the CX world, in particular, as well, I just love the contact center leaders. You know, the key thing that they’re passionate about, or one of the key parts is people development. And I don’t know, I just love being part of that selection process for them and being able to provide that solution for them.

Murray Guest  14:30

Can you help me understand that customer experience area of the business you know, the call center, the contact center? What makes that unique do you think?

Brigette Landy  14:43

I love recruiting in that space because a lot of the time it’s not about technical skill set. It’s all about behaviors and personalities and culture fit and I get such a kick out of recruiting that sort of stuff as opposed to technical skill set.

Murray Guest  15:06

I can imagine some of those behaviors in those roles. And I’m reflecting back on my time when I looked after Consumer Services many, many years ago, it was about empathy, compassion, listening, a lot of those real people skills that really help you connect with somebody.

Brigette Landy  15:23

Oh, definitely, I think one of the biggest, well at the top of every criteria for us is resilience as well. And that can be a really hard thing to find when you’re recruiting for those sorts of people. And I like the challenge of that, finding that resilience in people. And contact centres are fun, they’ve always got, you know, good vibes, positive vibes only, is my latest hashtag. It’s just a fun place to work, a fun environment to work within.

Murray Guest  16:00

I just was thinking about the amount of our decision making, which is emotional based versus fact based and data based. You know, I bought a car recently. You know, when you go to a restaurant, or you know, all those fashion choices you’re making, there’s emotions, where do they come into play in recruitment, versus they’ve got the qualifications, and they’ve got the data, and, you know, I can do my spreadsheet of all the numbers, but what about the emotional side? How does that fit into your record?

Brigette Landy  16:31

I, when I first started consulting, in recruitment, so it was a couple of years after I’d started in my junior burger role, I based all of my decisions on emotion. So it was, you know, not necessarily how much I liked a person. But it was all about the gut feel that I had about a person. Over the years, I’ve learnt to find ways to evidence that gut feel. You know, it might be as simple as asking behavioral based questions that really shows the evidence that your gut feel is right about that person being the best fit. But we’ve also used psychometric assessment and other tools to find the evidence to back up your gut feel. So there’s a definite balance there, ways to prove that emotional connection. 

Murray Guest  17:26

What’s it like, how would you describe that emotion? Or that feeling when someone gets that role that they’ve been really striving for, dreaming about? And they get that, that opportunity?

Brigette Landy  17:40

That’s what it’s all about. It’s, that’s, that’s why I do it. And, you know, that’s your success. You know, offering someone their dream job and, you know, telling them that amazing news that they’ve been waiting to hear it’s, yeah, I just get such a kick out of it. It’s excitement. It’s just a lot of excitement.

Murray Guest  18:10

Do you get the chance to reconnect with those people down the track and see how they’re going? Is that part of your process?

Brigette Landy  18:16

Definitely. Yeah, we have check in points. So we check in on their first day, at the end of their first week, after their first month, three months, six months. You know, it’s really easy to stay in contact with our candidates these days through the likes of LinkedIn and social media. But yeah, it’s always great to see how they’ve progressed through that career opportunity that you’ve provided, or facilitated for them. And ultimately, hopefully, that person will become a client one day.

Murray Guest  18:48

Yeah, I’m sure there are stories over the years where that’s happened. 

Brigette Landy  18:53

Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah. That’s the ultimate goal. That’s what we strive for a lot of the time. 

Murray Guest  19:02

So obviously, recruitments changed right now, with, you know, physical distancing, and a whole range of other things. What has the process been like in recent weeks versus maybe last year?

Brigette Landy  19:19

It’s not hugely different for us. We implemented virtual interviews or pre recorded video interviews, I think it was about 2014. So we’ve been using them for over five years now. And that’s been a really, value add, like a nice to have for our clients. We pre recorded a video interview that our candidates then complete and we can send that video link to the client, with their resume, for example. So the client gets so much more insight, but now it’s a necessity. So it was really easy for us to adapt to that way of interviewing. But it does make those decisions a little bit harder as well. I think physical presence has a role to play in a recruitment process. So I guess you just need to dig a little bit deeper into those areas that you feel that you might not fully, fully know yet or or trust yet. But yes, it was easy for us to adapt to this new way of doing things.

Murray Guest  20:29

Yeah. Okay, gotcha. And I did hear the other day something about video cover letters, where people are applying for jobs as opposed to the handwritten or the typed up, cover letters. And I mean, I sound old, handwritten cover letter, who’s done one of those lately? Right. But a video cover letter, I guess that’s part of the process as well.

Brigette Landy  20:51

Yeah, definitely. So I came across a LinkedIn profile the other day as well, where a candidate, in her about me section, it was a video, selling herself, basically. So that was really cool. But these videos play such a vital role in the recruitment process now, even leaning towards, you know, customer experience touches and improving the candidate experience as well, as well as benefiting the client. There’s a little 1% we call it that we’re doing now in our virtual interviews, where this is our pre recorded interviews, where we’ll ask the question of the candidate, what is your guilty 3pm afternoon snack?

Murray Guest  21:34

Oh, I like that a lot.

Brigette Landy  21:35

And yeah the candidate might answer Tim Tams, or they might say, chocolate chip cookies, or they might randomly say, a green mango salad from Thailand, which is really hard for us to provide, but once the candidate gets the job, or once we get to meet them, we’ll provide them with their 3pm guilty snack. It just blows them away. It’s a really nice touch for the person. And one of those one percenters as we call it.

Murray Guest  22:06

Yeah. And I think that’s a beautiful question, which has got me thinking, what are some other fantastic recruitment questions that you have asked over the years, that you reckon that have really got people thinking? 

Brigette Landy  22:20

There was one we asked the other day that I really liked. And it was for a role where we needed someone who was going to be really naturally inquisitive. And we asked the question, okay, so say you’ve got a brand new iPhone. What’s the first thing you do? Do you rip it out of the box? And do you get into it and just have a go? Or do you read the instructions? And do you carefully back everything up? That sort of stuff? And the responses you got out of that were really interesting. There’s no right or wrong answer. But it just gives you so much insight into how a person approaches new technology, or problem. How do you approach change? It tells you so much outside of what the actual thing that you’re asking?

Murray Guest  23:06

Yeah, I love that question. Because it’s so relevant. And as you’re saying, it’s rich, you can get so much data out of it. And I love questions. I talk to lots of people about the power of questions and the impact they can have. And I’d love to share one that I heard and this may be one that you use, so please tell me, but the question was the, in the recruitment process to ask, Tell me what you’re like at your absolute worst? And what I heard was this leader would explain at my worst, when I’m when I’m grumpy, when I’m stressed, I might get like this, and so again, it shows vulnerability and openness. Now, I’m asking you, tell me what you’re like at your absolute worst? And I really liked that, because again, it’s building that connection early on.

Brigette Landy  23:53

Do you think you’d always get an honest response? 

Murray Guest  23:56

Well, that’s an insight in itself isn’t it.

Brigette Landy  24:00

It’s like, you know, the weakness question, which we don’t ask directly. But, you know, you don’t want to get, lots of candidates don’t want to, you know, talk about the negatives of themselves. But I like the way that you’ve worded that, I feel like that would get the right sort of response.

Murray Guest  24:23

Yeah, well, I think that the framing up obviously is important in that question, and lots of other questions, as to what’s my intent in asking that question. You know, my intent is to actually get to know you. Do I want to work with you day in day out? Can I trust you? I think that’s so important. Where do you think recruitment’s going in the future?

Brigette Landy  24:44

Look, there’s a lot of talk. I mean, after 16 years, you tend to hear the same stories over and over again, right. And I think for the last 10 years, there’s been a lot of nervousness in the market about automation, about technology, about LinkedIn taking our jobs in terms of being a recruiter, but technology will always play a role and it is going to be so useful moving forward as well. But in recruitment, you always need a human, you need a human side and human perspective, human input. So I could tell you all these fancy new things that we’ve we’ve got lined up and that we’re talking about, but at the end of the day, there’s a really nice balance of technology, automation and human input.

Murray Guest  25:39

Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. I think what you said earlier about the one percenters, and also the cultural fit, and the gut feel, they’re all, you know, extremely important in that recruitment process aren’t they and you can’t take those away.

Brigette Landy  25:58

Yeah, definitely. And I think the things that we’ve been really focusing on lately, and moving forward, as well as the candidate experience. The candidates are our resource really. And we want them to, you know, have the most amazing experience with us, we want them to be our biggest fans. So we’re always trying to find ways to make it better for them, to leave them with this amazing feeling.

Murray Guest  26:28

Yeah, and I totally agree. And I think my addition to what you’re saying, which I unfortunately don’t think a lot of companies do well, so I think recruitments generally done well. It’s even to the point of, let’s have morning tea, and welcome Brige to the team and everyone, let’s welcome. And then there’s inductions, and onboarding, and a lot of that good stuff. I think the area and please correct me if I’m wrong, that we could do a lot better in companies is, how do we let people go? How do we transition them out? How do we, if it hasn’t worked out, how do we say goodbye in a way that’s respectful? And no matter what the reason, I think the way that you have someone leave your company is indicative of your culture. And I think the other end of the process can be improved, just generally, quite a bit.

Brigette Landy  27:19

Yeah, definitely. And I think our outplacement consultants are all about that sort of stuff. It’s all about the the care and nurturing that you give someone as they’re departing an organization. But you know, we’re part of that process to an extent when it comes to telling people that they’re unsuccessful for a job. And leaving those people with an amazing feeling, after they’ve just been told that they don’t have a job that they really wanted. Our goal is to hope that they leave with a really great impression of us.

Murray Guest  27:55

Yeah, and some valuable feedback. I think that’s, I know that you guys do that really well. But I’ve heard and I have experienced in the past myself where you weren’t successful, and you don’t find out or you don’t know why. So that feedbacks really important. So I’d love to ask you about your Strengths. And it’s something you and I have talked about a few times and obviously in the past, you’ve done the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. And you’ve mentioned your adaptability. Just for those listening, Brige’s top five: Adaptability, Positivity, Achiever, Responsibility, and Woo. And I would just love to know from a personal or professional perspective, what’s been the impact of knowing your strengths?

Brigette Landy  28:46

It’s been absolutely awesome. It’s been so good, knowing these strengths and I guess they’re, they’ve always been with me as my natural go-to strengths. But just being so much more aware of them has helped me relate to people better, professionally, and in my personal life as well. I got Zach, my partner, to do his Strengths assessment. And that was really insightful for me. I thought I knew him. But yeah, it’s been really positive. I’ve even seen it rub off on my nephews. So it’s a little story I posted about a little while ago about when I heard my five year old nephew, his name’s Dylan. He was talking to his friend and he said, oh, what’s, what does your dad do? And his friend said, my dad doesn’t have a job. And Dylan goes, Oh, he should talk to my auntie Brige. And I was blown away. I’m like, What? He’s a five year old kid man. Like, how does he know what recruitment is? How does he know that I’m a recruiter. Um, but I think, you know, for me, my positivity Strength is all about contagious enthusiasm. And I think you know, given my enthusiasm for my job and what I do, I think that had just rubbed off on my five year old nephew. You know, he’d obviously taken that on board. And you know, that was really insightful for me. I was blown away by that.

Murray Guest  30:18

Did you give him a couple of business cards to hand out at preschool? Tell me, knowing your strengths, has that helped you? Because I think about all those conversations you have with people, whether that’s within your team, or potential candidates or clients, how knowing your strengths has helped in those conversations.

Brigette Landy  30:45

Yeah, I, it’s been most most helpful. Because it’s just been really insightful for strengths based leadership, I guess. I think talking to clients about what they want to get out of candidates in the recruitment process, and really being able to consult with them on, you know, this candidate is really good at this sort of stuff. So let’s give them more of that sort of stuff to do. Let’s not force them to do the things that they’re not great at, because they’re gonna see themselves, you know, failing or not living up to your standards. And that’s been the same with my team, you know, really offering them opportunities to do more of the stuff that they love, and are good at and want to do, rather than forcing them to do things that they’re not real good at.

Murray Guest  31:40

That’s a fantastic explanation of strengths based leadership. And I know that your whole team has embraced strengths and seeing how that’s helped them. And not just themselves, but then in the way that they interact with each other as well. And that’s, as you know, and we’ve talked about, it’s a journey isn’t it. It’s not like, hey, we’ve done our strengths, tick the box. Always new layers and new experiences with it. 

Brigette Landy  32:07

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It’s been great. 

Murray Guest  32:10

Tell me about you and Zack, though, from a personal level, what did you learn if that’s okay, about you and your partner’s strengths and how they complement or contrast?

Brigette Landy  32:20

Yeah, I think I can’t remember all five. But I know, consistency and discipline, were definitely in there, and harmony. So I think just knowing that, you know, knowing why he does things a certain way and knowing why he’s got to get up at the same time every morning and go through the same routine every day and have the same sorts of meals for dinners and all that sort of thing. You know, me being adaptable, doesn’t line up so much to that consistency piece. But just knowing that that’s where his natural instincts are, helped me understand him so much more.

Murray Guest  33:02

Yeah, I always come back to Don Clifton’s quote about, you know, what’s going to happen when we focus on what’s right with people rather than fixating with what’s wrong with them. And that, that example there about well, Zach likes this way of living, this way of approaching his mornings. It’s different to mine. And that’s okay. Except for when we go on holidays. Yeah, that’s right.

Brigette Landy  33:29

Yeah, that’s right, which is next week. Actually, I’m off to Byron Bay next week. We were meant to be flying to New York today. Following a road trip across the states, but Byron will do.

Murray Guest  33:44

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of people with stories like that. I actually read somewhere something like canceled holidays. The value of those is $6 billion, or something.

Brigette Landy  33:54

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I’m definitely feeling for the tourism industry at the moment. Yeah.

Murray Guest  34:01

Now, just to wrap up our conversation on strengths. Which one do you think out of your top five do you think can hinder you the most? So you love those, and I can hear that in the way you talk about them, but is there one that you think or sometimes it can get in my way a little bit? 

Brigette Landy  34:18

I don’t know. I wouldn’t say they get in my way. But they definitely get in other people’s way. Like the responsibility and the achiever. I feel like those two definitely, some people see it in me and just go Brige’s on a roll again, let’s just, let’s just avoid her. I really am passionate about doing what I say I will do and I live by that. And if I’m going to miss a deadline, that’s a huge deal for me. It’s not really a huge deal for a lot of other people if it’s a small, insignificant deadline, but even those ones are a big deal to me. So I’ve had to learn, and you’ve been a huge part of this process Muz, learn to understand that, you know, while it’s a priority for me, it might not be someone else’s priority. And that because that’s not their strength, their strengths are doing other amazing things. So, you know, just to, for me to accept that. So I don’t feel like they get in my way, they probably do. But I know that the achiever and responsibility, you know, some people probably don’t appreciate.

Murray Guest  35:35

And I have responsibility number five, so I totally High Five you on that, I get that 1,000,000%. And I would say what strengths enables is that understanding, but also a way to articulate it to other people as to why it’s important to you. And then find that middle ground about how do we make that work?

Brigette Landy  35:56

Oh, definitely. And throughout…When did we first do our strengths? Is it a couple of years ago? Yeah, those last couple of years, our team has had so many conversations about why each of us do things a certain way and, and why we don’t. So it’s been massively helpful.

Murray Guest  36:15

Yeah, that’s awesome to hear. And I’m so glad to hear the conversations continuing. Because as we said a bit earlier, it’s not a tick in the box. It’s a journey of depth of understanding ourselves as we go along. I’m still learning about mine. And I did my assessment first time 12 years ago. So definitely still learning and finding out the little ways that they can help me be a better version of myself, that’s for sure. 

Brigette Landy  36:42

And have they changed at all in the last 12 years? 

Murray Guest  36:45

So based on the research, if I was to quote Don Clifton’s research around the point seven retest validity, so 70% of that dominant strengths are going to stay the same throughout your life, because they’re primarily from nature, and those early nurture years. However, the other bit too, that is, if you go through a major life event, they can change. So I would say after my accident at the end of 2018, my empathy was already low, but it’s lower. If it could be. My family’s well aware of that. And I would say my deliberative, though, deliberative has gone up. Deliberative being that deliberate decision making, weighing up the pros and cons, that risk awareness that definitely has increased, I’d say. And, yeah, and I think that’s understandable. I think the empathy piece comes from a bit of, well this happened to me, what you’re going through is not that important. 

Brigette Landy  37:51

I get that, too. That’s understandable as well. I reckon. 

Murray Guest  37:54

I’ve got to be careful about that. I think.

Brigette Landy  37:58

I just wanted to, say, give you a shout out as well, you connected me with a guy by the name of Luke Jamison. He’s a thought leader in CX and EX. And he’s actually presenting at our next CX networking session, which you would know all about, because you presented at the last one.

Murray Guest  38:19

And such a great network. I mean, we had a huge attendance. This is, I think it was the last one before COVID.

Brigette Landy  38:26

It was yeah. The lucky last in person. And we’re hosting them online now. So another, another fun zoom session, but it will be awesome.

Murray Guest  38:35

So yeah, no, Luke is a great guy. I met Luke through the Lego Serious Play certification we did together. He is an awesome guy, a great thinker, energy, sort of thought leader in that CX space and gamification. And it is a shame it’s not in person. But that is where we are. I’m doing a presentation next week to a networking group online. So another one of those. But yeah, great. I’m glad that you guys have connected.

Brigette Landy  39:06

Yeah, definitely. And we’ve already put the word out to our network. And they’re really needing it at the moment. They want something that, you know, can help them through whatever it is that they’re going through, which a lot of their struggles at the moment in that CX world is employee engagement, and finding ways to make things fun for people while they’re not, probably not in the office environment, or not in the contact center environment, a lot of them are at home, and I think it could be awesome for that.

Murray Guest  39:36

Yeah. And that that connection you talked about, and I think my experience in that CX world and of course, nowhere as big as yours, but that passion that people have for people, and then that connection, if they’re all been working at home by themselves, they’re missing that. So I think bringing that back in is is so important right now.

Brigette Landy  40:01

Yeah, totally my, my biggest problem with hosting this session is that I think with our zoom account, I think we’ve only got a maximum of 100 attendees. So I’m probably going to have to upgrade that because there has been such a positive response so far. I’m really looking forward to it.

Murray Guest  40:17

When is it on? 

Brigette Landy  40:18

On the fourth of September. 

Murray Guest  40:20

Awesome. Well, of course, we can also put, we’ll make sure the links in the show notes. We’ll put it out there as well. Yeah. So recruitment is all about people. And having that connection. So this is rapid fire. I only do rapid fire every so often, but rapid fire questions Brige. Okay, so people get to know you even more. Okay, you ready? 

Brigette Landy  40:44

I’m ready. Yep. 

Murray Guest  40:46

What is your 3pm guilty snack? 

Brigette Landy  40:50

Look at the moment it would be apple and peanut butter. 

Murray Guest  40:56

Okay, there’s no judgment here. That’s fine. 

Brigette Landy  41:01

Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. 

Murray Guest  41:03

Okay. All right. You play guitar. What do you like to play on the guitar?

Brigette Landy  41:10

The last thing I played was Nirvana. So I like I like acoustic grunge. 90s stuff.

Murray Guest  41:19

Nice. Okay. So question. Have you ever had a mullet? 

Brigette Landy  41:26

No, no. I’ve had an undercut? 

Murray Guest  41:30

Yeah. Okay, cool. Gotcha. What’s a food you really don’t like?

Brigette Landy  41:37

Peas. I love all vegetables. Except peas. I still will eat them. But I would never choose them.

Murray Guest  41:45

I’m going to talk about my wife here, she is to put the peas in the pockets of her dressing gown at the table cause she hated them so much. And emptied them out in the toilet or somewhere down the track. 

Brigette Landy  41:55

Oh, that’s awesome. I’m all for that. Go Tammy. 

Murray Guest  42:00

Where’s your dream holiday destination?

Brigette Landy  42:04

I love the United States. As I said I was meant to be there right now. Anywhere tropical, hot with some ocean or a pool. I’m usually pretty happy with that.

Murray Guest  42:16

Gotcha. If you were hosting a client in Newcastle, where would you take them?

Brigette Landy  42:23

Ah, this is a great question. So my favorite place to go at the moment is The Falcon, which is up on Pacific Street in Newcastle East, an American vibe bar. You can probably catch a bit of an American theme for me at the moment. So we’d go to The Falcon and then I’d take them along the harbour and the beaches and the Anzac walk. That’s pretty cool, too.

Murray Guest  42:49

It is, it is. And for anyone listening that hasn’t made it to Newcastle. Honestly, it’s the best in Australia, isn’t it Brige? 

Brigette Landy  42:57

Oh, in the world. 

Murray Guest  43:00

Awesome. Well done. That was painless, just some rapid fire questions there just to get to know you even more. So thank you. 

Brigette Landy  43:08

Thanks, Muz. I’m intrigued by that word, painless. To describe that. 

Murray Guest  43:14

Some people just don’t like those questions. But you know, related number one, I’m happy to ask anything. So that was good. So thank you, again, so much for this conversation, talking about recruitment, talking about your passion for what you do. I love what you do. I love the work of the team and Forsythes Recruitment and HR. So thank you. Your energy comes across fantastically. And speaking of energy, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Brigette Landy  43:47

I had to think about this. But I came back to what I had immediately thought when you asked me that question. And I feel like it’s doing the things that give you energy. So doing the things that really energize you. So whether it’s a certain task at work, or whether it’s doing the things that give you energy at home, taking the dog to the park, whatever it is, it’s the stuff that gives you energy.

Murray Guest  44:16

I would love to add too, if I may, I can imagine that phone call that you make to clients or to candidates when they get the job that they’ve been dreaming of, that must give you this energy that inspires you just go, right what’s next. Let’s keep going. 

Brigette Landy  44:34

Totally yeah, you’re spot on with that. 

Murray Guest  44:37

Thanks again so much. I’ve loved catching up chatting to you. And can I just ask if anyone wants to reach out to you, want to know more about the work you do and connect online, where’s the best place to do that?

Brigette Landy  44:49

Probably LinkedIn. I’m always on LinkedIn. So linkedin.com/blandy.

Murray Guest  44:57

Great. Yes. And you post some fantastic stuff on LinkedIn. I think it’s a really valuable what you’ve been putting on there. So yep, please keep doing that.

Brigette Landy  45:06

Yeah, that’d be great. I’ve been loving the posting and the engagement. And we started doing it during COVID. Actually, I started getting a bit more active and regular with my LinkedIn. And yeah, the engagements been awesome.

Murray Guest  45:20

Great. So one last question, though. I’ve just thought of this. I was gonna ask earlier, it’s come back around into my conscious. If someone is looking for a job right now, what would be your tip for them to take action on? 

Brigette Landy  45:38

Just one tip, or? There’s a whole heap of tips. 

Murray Guest  45:40

Give us hundreds. Well, just give us a couple.

Brigette Landy  45:43

Well, they need to get on to LinkedIn, and follow my colleagues because they’re always passing advice about how to look for a job. And you need to get comfortable with video. Definitely. And, and if you can access some free online courses about or not even free, if you happen to pay for it even better, but about personal branding, as a candidate, or a job seeker, you are selling yourself, you need to get really comfortable with that. You need to get good at that.

Murray Guest  46:14

Wow. And I’m so glad I asked that question because there’s some really good tips there so thank you. Brige. This has been awesome. I hope all goes well over the coming weeks. I’ll make sure I share the upcoming cx networking event in the shownotes and have a great holiday next week. Keep well and healthy. Look forward to a coffee maybe sometime in the future. 

Brigette Landy  46:37

Yeah, maybe in 2022. Thanks. It’s been great.

Episode 63 – Sharon Hespe | The Good Gut Girl

In this episode I chat with Sharon Hespe, a naturopath who is also known as The Good Gut Girl and who wholeheartedly believes that it is possible to change your life through good gut health.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Welcome, Sharon to the podcast. Great to see you. Great to catch up with you, how you been? 

Sharon Hespe  00:08

Fantastic Mary, how are you?

Murray Guest  00:10

I’m good. I’m feeling good today, I am feeling a bit heavy hearted about all that’s going on in the world, that’s for sure, particularly in America, and it is spreading obviously, the protests and the awareness around just what’s going on, and the changes that need to be made. And whilst you and I both understand strengths, and I do joke around and say my empathy is low, and yours is high, I’m definitely feeling it at the moment that heaviness as well.

Sharon Hespe  00:36

Yeah, that’s understandable. There are major changes going on now all at the moment. And, and sometimes it’s a little bit hard to cope with everything, because there is just so much going on.

Murray Guest  00:48

Yeah, and I know that certainly you help with your clients that you see around how to handle that and do that. And similar to myself, I guess, the client I see quite often is coming back to what’s in your control, what can you do about it? And, having the conversation I think is really important as well.

Sharon Hespe  01:05

That is very true. And often I will say to my patients, there is nothing that I can do to control what’s going on around you. But there are lots of herbal medicines and supplements I can give you that will help you to relax into what’s going on and not be so stressed about what’s happening. So it gets you the herbs and supplements will help you to adapt to situations rather than reacting.

Murray Guest  01:31

And that building of resilience within the body with the work that you do so that we can handle what’s going on in our world. I’m sure that’s that’s what I’m hearing there. Now you are known as the good gut girl. Which I love. I love it such a great saying and a great perspective that you bring that people I know need to learn about on ask, Why? Why this focus on the gut? How did that come about for you in your area of naturopathy?

Sharon Hespe  02:05

Gosh, I remember many years ago, or around 12 years ago, when I was studying in a clinic, we had a supervisor and she was really big on food intolerances. And it was such a complex world. And I remember thinking, I’m not sure that I’m really gonna get into food intolerances when I get out and become a naturopath because it’s so complex, it’s so hard. Sure, there must be an easier way to make money. So I remember when I first became a naturopath and my very first patient had a food intolerance was like, Okay, I really know what to do here, because I’m really experienced because of my clinic supervisor, and then the next person and then the next person. So I did probably half my work in the beginning around food intolerances. And then a letter landed in my letterbox from the council, and they were saying that they wanted to help health professionals to build their business within the St. George, the St. George community. So I thought, Okay, that sounds great. So they, they created and ran a business course for us. And it was absolutely brilliant. And in one of those lessons, I can remember one of the facilitators saying, you really need to pick something that is that is happening now that there is a future to and you really need to nation, it was like, Huh, okay, I think I know what I need to do. So I said, Look, I really think I need to focus on food intolerances because I have a lot of experience in it. And more and more people are coming down with gut problems. So I did and that’s what I really focused on. And since then, that’s almost, in fact, that is the only patients I do see I’ve got problems. If I have someone with fertility or song with cancer or someone with some other problem, I will refer them on automatically because in my mind, I’ve got problems day in, day out. So when I sit and listen to somebody, immediately it comes straight to mind. I never have to go to a textbook, I never have to go and look something up because it’s just what I do day in day out.

Murray Guest  04:18

And your your depth of knowledge from seeing all those people and understanding their needs is this I can imagine this library that you have just ready access to in your head and from all those experiences.

Sharon Hespe  04:30

That’s correct. And there’s a lot of anecdotal symptoms with gut problems, lots of anecdotal symptoms that you see. So if, for instance, if somebody would would present with a fructose malabsorption problem, they would have pain high up in the gut, that pain at times will be really severe. There will be worse after garlic and onions there will be worse after fruit on an empty stomach. There could be anxiety there will be liver function problems just straight away before I even test, I will think, okay, it’s likely that there’s an intestinal absorption problem here, because those symptoms are very, very common in that gut problem.

Murray Guest  05:13

So for those people listening that may not have an understanding of the difference between a food allergy and a food intolerance. Okay, can you help us understand those differences?

Sharon Hespe  05:24

Yes, yes, they’re both mediated by the immune system. But an allergy is an IGE mediated problem. And an intolerance or sensitivity is mediated by the IDG part of your immune system. So with the IGE part, it’s like we almost saw that has a peanut allergy or a seafood allergy. So the reactions that you get will happen between around sometimes 30 seconds, up to five to 10 minutes, after you ingest that food, we’re any tolerance will happen, you will get a symptom between possibly half an hour and up to five days later. So it makes it quite difficult to, to work out what’s going on. So I do test a lot for intolerances, because it’s just the easiest way to do it. But yeah, there’s a big difference between an allergy and intolerance. And obviously, allergies are life threatening emergencies. And you, you will always have an epi pen, and there’s a huge difference. And once you either have an allergy or you have an intolerance, then you understand what’s going on.

Murray Guest  06:26

Yeah, I think that’s a distinction that I was aware of that an allergy is life threatening, whereas an intolerance is and tell me if this is incorrect it in causes health, I guess, concerns and problems and discomfort, but doesn’t have that same consequences that are that when you have the allergy it has?

Sharon Hespe  06:49

That’s correct. That is right. But it does create some really uncomfortable and really awful symptoms to people that they have to live with day in, day out. And sometimes people just tend to get used to it and their illness becomes the new, normal way of feeling that this is how these sounds always been sad people feel. Whereas an allergy it’s a totally different thing.

Murray Guest  07:13

I’ve heard some things in the media. Over the years of that there’s more people having food intolerances than the past. And they’re on the increase on wondering Is that what’s happening? Or are we just getting better at identifying them? Or is it a bit of both?

Sharon Hespe  07:30

Look, I do think it’s a bit of both. But there are a few things that really will contribute to a food intolerance or a gut problem, and that is stress. And you look at the world, especially since January this year, and look at the stress people have been on it. It’s been huge. But as well as stress, it’s poor dietary choices. So too much weat, too much dairy, too many processed foods. So people say oh, in my day, you know, my grandparents didn’t have that. They had a very different life than we have now. They had a community to help them they had family to help them. And they had food from the gardens, you know, or they had they had a lot of fresh food, they didn’t have nearly as much processed food as we have, or nearly as much stress. So both of those things are huge contributors to food intolerances.

Murray Guest  08:17

So if I’m walking around, and I think I’ve got a food intolerance, what should I do?

Sharon Hespe  08:25

Okay, first thing is you need to find a naturopath that is great with gut health, because they will be able to help you. I say to people, 

Murray Guest  08:35

Can I just go back a second? How would I even know if I’ve got a problem?

Sharon Hespe  08:38

Interesting. That’s true. That’s true. So you would have symptoms and all go really probably from the head down. You may be getting headaches, you may feel a bit foggy, you may have a terrible memory, you may be getting mouth ulcers, you may be getting indigestion or reflux, you may be getting gut pain, that gut pain may be high up on your ribs or it might be lower down. You may be getting bloating, you may be tired a lot. Your muscles may ache you may have. Your poo might smell all of those sort of things are symptoms that you may or may not have.

Murray Guest  09:20

I think that’s a quite a big list and actually I think brings attention that when we are out of alignment those problems you know got a can impact so many parts of our body can’t it. 

Sharon Hespe  09:32

Off course it does. Yes. 

Murray Guest  09:35

Okay, so then as you’re saying if we’ve got some of those complaints, or we’ve got some of those health concerns, and my normal is like that and I’m don’t want that normal anymore. You started to say then see a naturopath that has a knowledge and skill around gut health.

Sharon Hespe  09:53

Yeah, that is so true. And the key that our that the way that I like to operate. I’ve the way I do things is you need to find the cause of what’s going on. So and we’ve we’ve got problems, it can be really things, it can be a food intolerance, it can be SIBO, which is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, it might be a fruit, just malabsorption problem, or it could be just too much bad bacteria in that gut. And you know, we all see that television ads where you’ve got the good bacteria dancing, and the bad bacteria dancing, and the bad bacteria tend to take over. And that just means there’s too much bad bacteria in your gut, it can be a Candida overgrowth, it might be a parasite, it could be a salicylate problem, it could be a histamine problem. So there are quite a few things that can be. But the key is, as with all health conditions, you need to find the cause, before you can treat it properly, there is only so much that you can do symptomatically

Murray Guest  10:49

it really is about finding the cause. And something you’re saying before about the timeframe that the symptoms can show up, Is there like a load that you can slowly build up over a period of time with those food intolerances or those problems, it’s not like a switch, and it just happened. So it could be a number of things going on to get to a point where you’ve got the pains and the aches and the symptoms. Yeah, that is very true, it’s a little bit similar to the perfect storm. And often what you’ll see when people have a food intolerance, they’ll have a stressful event. So then I’ll get married, then we’ll get divorce, that they bought a house or had a child or someone’s died. So they’ll have this really stressful event that happens to them. And they gut lining becomes in really bad shape. And if the food proteins are not being broken down or digested properly, those food proteins drop into that leaky gut through that leaky gut into the bloodstream. And you’ll have a reaction. So I’ll use myself as an example as to how this happened. And about nearly 10 years ago, now, my mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And she had passed away within the week. And she was already she was 63 years old. So that’s a relatively young age. And then all of a sudden, she was alive, relatively healthy. And within a week she passed away. So it was a really stressful time for me. And I can still remember the stress of that time and about. So I went back to work and do the whole funeral all of the things that you’re supposed to do when somebody dies. And then about three months later was like, why am I so tired, I was so tired, I would set my phone alarm for 20 minutes and sleep on the couch between patients, because I was so exhausted. And it took me quite a while to work out what it was and then hang on a minute. Maybe I’ve got a food intolerance. But I’d never had any other symptoms, no bloating, no pain, no constipation, none of the other symptoms that are talked about at all. And I thought well just test yourself and see. So I did I did the finger prick blood testing clinic process at all, and was like, Oh my god, I there was about five or six foods that showed strong intolerance as well. Okay, I still wasn’t convinced. I thought okay, well just remove the foods and see how you feel. I felt terrible for the first four or five days as I removed those foods from my diet. But But that day forward, I six was like, I could run to the top of Mount Everest, I felt so good. And that’s when I knew Okay, it was a 50 chance but but those are sort of things you see with a food intolerance, you see a stressful event, and you will always I always had a little bit of hay fever. That’s it. That’s the only sign off into my head. And obviously, I had gotten to like other people. This is my new normal. This is how I’m supposed to feelwhen it wasn’t. So it’s quite interesting.  There are things that I’m thinking about too is when we’re under stress quite often we go to drinking and eating things which aren’t the best for us. 

Sharon Hespe  13:49

Always. 

Murray Guest  13:50

Which then compound the problem, I guess.

Sharon Hespe  13:52

Yeah, that’s true. And too What happens is people think, well, I feeling really bad anyway. So why would I do what I want to wait? Because how much worse can I really feel?

Murray Guest  14:03

I’m feeling crap. So you know what, I’m just going to drink some more so I can not feel it. And then I might eat a whole bunch of, I don’t know junk food or comfort food? Because that’s what I’m feeling like, and then that’s not helping as well.

Sharon Hespe  14:15

That’s correct. That’s exactly what happens. Yeah, it’s a huge, vicious cycle that sometimes you need someone just to step in and intervene and say, let’s look at things in a different way.

Murray Guest  14:27

So you mentioned good and bad bacteria. What are some things which help us build that good bacteria in our gut?

Sharon Hespe  14:36

Okay, with the good bacteria you need to, for really good gut health you need around 40 different plant foods per week, which is a lot of plant foods per week. Ideally, if your gut is in great shape, you will cope with those sorts of plant foods. And that will keep your gut in fantastic shape. So it’s about variety. It’s about brightly colored foods and things such as that

Murray Guest  15:00

Okay, and I’ve heard that drinking doesn’t help those good bacteria. When I say drinking I mean drinking alcohol.

Sharon Hespe  15:09

Yeah, alcohol, alcohol and caffeine can be really detrimental to the gut lining, it’s really quite inflammatory and you’ve got it that lining you can imagine, it’s like having. If you can imagine your fingers, your hand and you open up your hand, and you can spread your fingers out beautifully. And that hand works really, really well. So then imagine, if three of those fingers were stuck together and only one was open, your hand won’t function very well, like that. You’ve got the same if it’s not in great shape, it can’t function well. And, and then you’re in flaming that one little part that is still open, then it just compounds and becomes worse and worse and worse.

Murray Guest  15:51

Yeah. Okay. So this is a bit of a reset for me. Thanks, Sharon. I mean, I’m now drinking less drinking less coffee. You’re just ticking off these things, maybe what else am I gonna cut out next your going to tell me, no chocolate!

Sharon Hespe  16:07

Ah, I see. The problem with chocolate is the dairy. So I think he is people always forget that chocolate has dairy, but it’s dairy milk chocolate. So look, dairy. A1 dairy in particular is the probably the food that is most problematic for most people. But you can have dark chocolate, because that doesn’t have any dairy milk in it. You just need to be careful when you read the label that doesn’t say it contains milk solids.

Murray Guest  16:38

So I do have I do like my dark chocolate. And I am mindful also of enjoy life in moderation. So having those small bits of dark chocolate. But I you know, I think we all slip up and that’s something maybe which I wonder about too, and about being kind to ourselves when we do slip up a little bit because we got to be kind to ourselves, maybe to get back moving forward again, don’t we? 

Sharon Hespe  17:02

Yeah, of course. And I often say to people, you know, when they come in for their second or their third appointment, They say, look, I need to be honest. I haven’t, you know, haven’t done what you’ve asked me and I feel terrible. And I say, Look, you’re human, it’s okay. You know, just get back on the horse. And let’s start again, it doesn’t mean that you’ve ruined all the work that we’ve done. It just means that you’re humans. And and, you know, just don’t be so hard on yourself. Let’s give you find ways to help you to do it better. 

Murray Guest  17:34

Yeah, great, great. I need to ask about the emergence, if that’s the right word about kombucha in the last must be last couple of years, I guess. And I admit, I don’t mind, if I’m at the shops or if I’m getting some petrol from the service station, I might grab a bottle of kombucha. And I’m, I’m telling myself, that’s a better alternative, and I haven’t drank coke and things like that for years, that I’m telling myself that’s a better alternative and it’s doing me some good. How much good is it doing me? Really,

Sharon Hespe  18:09

Kombucha is a little bit like sauerkraut and it’s a little bit like all of the so called functional foods. Now that probably 60 is probably a good word for them. Now, with your gut health, they say that things like kombucha and sauerkraut, give your gut good bacteria. In fact, they don’t give your gut good bacteria. They are like all other foods and they are transient. But one good thing about them is that another food so that’s another source of variety for your gut, which is also good. So I said, Look, you know, maybe one kombucha week is fine, but a kombucha everyday is too much. And often I will see patients that say okay, I’ve been on this huge health kick. I’m having kombucha I’m having sauerkraut I’m juicing everyday. And they’re just getting worse. And I’m thinking yeah, no, you’re just getting worse. So it doesn’t mean that those things in large quantities are better for you have those sort of things in small quantities. And I always think that water is probably the best thing. Just get a sparkling mineral water one time. Get a kombucha the next we want to have a treat. A kombucha is fine, but treat it as a treat food. Not a normal food.

Murray Guest  19:19

Yeah, not an everyday food. Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. I’m also thinking about what I’ve learned over the years about listening to my body, and how powerful that’s been around my decision making or what it’s telling me or if I need to slow down. I’d love to know your perspective around how much we do and how much you see the power and listening to our body.

Sharon Hespe  19:44

Listening to your body tells you a lot. And I find when a patient first comes in and I ask them a series of questions. They have no idea what is going on in their body. But once we remove problematic foods, whether they be intolerances or SIBO foods or fructose foods or foods that are bad for the bacteria in your gut, people then start to listen to their body. And then they’ll have a food that they’re not supposed to have. And they can feel exactly what’s going on. So sometimes it needs for somebody to say to you, let’s look at things in a different way before they actually do stop and listen. And once they do, stop and listen, they go, Ah, now I can hear. Yeah, it’s like that whole, you can’t see the forest for the trees until someone points out that particular tree and what that will do for you, and then you Okay, now I can see.

Murray Guest  20:34

Yeah, that awareness now and then taking more notice of it as you consume different foods and what the reaction is that your body might be had this yeah, gotcha. Okay. Shaz I’d love to know, I mean, you’ve shared a couple of stories about yourself. But is there a story or some insights around someone you’ve helped, of course, mindful of, we don’t want to know their personal details. But I’d love to know the impact that you’ve had in some of the people you’ve worked with.

Sharon Hespe  21:00

Yeah, I think the biggest the biggest stories that I do see, come from young children, and from people that have terrible diarrhea. And often I have people that come to see me, and honestly, it’s sometimes it’s heartbreaking, and I almost feel myself in tears. Because for these people to get to work, they need to take medication, such as gastro stop, because if they don’t, they actually won’t make it to work to get to the toilet in time. So as often, it’s as simple as it might be an egg intolerance. It might be a fructose malabsorption, it just might be too much bad bacteria. And just a small change in diet makes a huge difference. You know, so with adults, I see that a lot. And I love that. But it’s with children. It’s so you will see a small child that will come to see with one of their parents, or their carers, and they tell me pain is terrible. You know, and actually, there is one great, great story that I will tell you about a child that once came to see me, there was a lady, she came to see me she had four children, and her youngest boy, was the one that was unwell. And I don’t like to test children. I like to if I do need to send the probiotics I will, I do prefer to set up let’s remove a couple of foods first. So we removed these two foods from this child’s diet. And the mother came back in I think was probably a month later. And she said Sharon, she said, Thank you so much. She said, I thought I just had a quiet child. She said the three of my boys were like, bouncing off the walls and the chairs and the counters like energetic children. And she said, My fourth child, she said, I just thought he was quite he used to like lay on the couch. He says sit around, he never had any energy. He didn’t used to do much. And she said now I realized he was just unwell. And because he was only two, he couldn’t tell his mother he was unwell. And as soon as you remove the food, she said, he just became what the other three children and he was. So things like that make such a huge change in people’s lives and and then his poor mother felt so guilty. She said, Oh my god, I thought I had this quiet child, but she said he’s been on welfare the whole two years of his life. So so that was that was a nice heartwarming story,

Murray Guest  23:20

That is beautiful. And your many, examples of the child but also the adults where you’re changing and working with them to change the quality of their life. So that they can live a better quality of life and a better day to day life. And as you said not have to fear going to work or wondering where the next toilet is, or worrying about even that I can imagine some people in that situation to have like a day to day management of what are they going to do and organizing their life around that.

Sharon Hespe  23:52

Yeah, often people’s day to day management is okay, I’m going from here to and I live in hurstville Grove in just south and city. So a person Saturday management, if they will go into North Sydney, they would know where every public toilet was on the way. That’s their way of managing it. Which I can understand if that’s the way that that’s the only way they can do it. But that is how people do manage their lives when they have something that’s happening like that, which it’s sad because it’s just not necessary.

Murray Guest  24:23

Yeah. And I can imagine then, if we’re taking that out of the day to day management, that then opens up attention in the consciousness to focus on other things and enjoy life much much better. Yeah, of course.

Sharon Hespe  24:36

Yeah, that’s right. It’s life changing. Yeah, getting your guts in great shape. is life changing for many people? Hmm.

Murray Guest  24:44

Is there a saying a question just popped into my head and that is, is there different needs? Like, generally that guts need through different life stages. So as we get older, do we need to think about things differently for our gut, or is it more on an individual level,

Sharon Hespe  25:01

It’s more of an individual level. But as we get older, we get we have less stomach acid in our gut. That is probably one of the things that happens when we get older. And often you see in elderly people, they just, they’ve been cooking for 70 years, and they just don’t want to cook anymore couldn’t be bothered. So they will tend to have tea and toast and things like that, which are not great for anybody. But it is more of an individual thing, rather than what you see for the over the lifespan.

Murray Guest  25:35

And there trends within families, you know, is that genetically, that that sort of influences some of those intolerances as well.

Sharon Hespe  25:45

Often, often you will see a parent and a child have the same, exactly the same intolerances. And often people will ring me and say, Look, I want to bring myself and my children and I say, pick the person that is the most unwell in your family. Let’s get them right. First, let’s remove the foods that showed to be a problem for that person. And keep everything else the same in the family. And you will find that that comes that that they will all come together as well. So yeah, it’s often something you see that does run in families. And often if a pregnant mother has poor gut health, that child will as well have poor gut health. Not always, but it’s a common common thing.

Murray Guest  26:25

Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Okay. Yeah. This has been fantastic Shaz, I love your passion for what you have for the work that you do and the people you are seeing. How’s it been? I just want to ask for the past couple of months with COVID. And a change of working. How’s that been working out for you as well?

Sharon Hespe  26:47

Look, it’s it’s been I’ve had to pivot and move online, like many people did any fact as naturopaths, we were told our association said, Look, you actually don’t have to go online, you can still see people if you want to. But my thoughts were and especially in the beginning, it was such a panic with that with the COVID. My thoughts were, I didn’t want to catch the Coronavirus and give it to a patient then to give it to their patient to to give it to the whole family, if that makes sense. So I said okay, I’ll just move online, like everybody else did. And it was great. But my biggest skill is empathy. So it’s quite difficult to speak to somebody on a screen and look at a camera and, and get a great understanding of what’s going on in their life. So it can be done, but it’s not as ideal as it is in person. But I do notice what I have started to see now is people that now have to go back to work. And they say, Oh, no, I have to get back on that train. Now. I better fix my gal has seen a host of people in this last couple of weeks, realizing that they actually do need to go back to an office environment. And the I’d better get my updates before I go back. So they don’t have to get off at work right. Get off at all these stations on the way to find the nearest toilet.

Murray Guest  28:05

Yeah, gotcha. You just reminded me of something I did want to talk about. And that is with their own immunity and gut health. What’s the relationship there?

Sharon Hespe  28:14

Look, with immunity and and gut health. It’s, there’s this huge, huge relationship because about 70% of your immunity is within your gut. So if you don’t get your gut in great shape, then it makes sense that your immune system also will not be in fantastic shape. So and like I discussed before, the gut barrier is suppose contains a whole bucketload of immune complexes and it’s a really complex situation. So I suppose the basics are if you want your immune system to stay in great shape, you need to keep your gut lining in great shape. It’s as simple as that.

Murray Guest  28:53

So whilst we thinking about in coming into winter in the southern hemisphere and the flu and obviously COVID-19 looking after our guard to increase our immunity is really important.

Sharon Hespe  29:07

It’s it’s super important and not only will it help your immune system, but you will feel fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah. And there are a few things like I said to people, like you know, try and limit your wheat and dairy intake to once a week. Try limit your alcohol content to two servings a week. Make sure you really really increase those immune system features such as zinc, so your seafood, your red meat, your nuts and seeds, your vitamin D foods like fatty fish and eggs. Your vitamin C foods, capsicum, strawberries, citrus are fantastic. So your vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin A food so all yellow, orange fruits and vegetables that pumpkin, carrot, oranges all have great amounts of vitamin A in there. You can get this great variety in your diet. It will really really help to keep your gut healthy.

Murray Guest  29:58

I think that’s such a beautiful list of the rainbow of colors that you mentioned earlier. And that variety. And if you’re seeing that, that rainbow, you’re seeing that variation on your plate. Not the beiges, you know, the browns, the whites. That’s going to obviously make a difference. Yeah. Yes, it does. That I think that’s such a great list of foods you just talk through, for people to think about and think about their color. But if someone’s listening, before we wrap up, shares, I want to know if there’s a little strategy that you know, would help everybody what would that be?

Sharon Hespe  30:45

Find out what’s going on your gut? Get tested, find out you need to Yeah, yeah. And you can guess. And you can put in this way you could put in that food and you can try this, you can try that. But don’t guess get a test?

Murray Guest  31:00

Oh, I like that. Okay, now, I want to ask you, you mentioned empathy a couple of times empathy, number one, in your top five strengths. And in the past, through a program, you found out your top five strengths. And with Tammy and I are working on that. I just want to check in because I love the impact strengths is made in people’s lives. What was the impact for you knowing those strengths for you.

Sharon Hespe  31:35

It makes you understand how you think about things and how you view the world. And and I know sometimes when you can over dial your strengths, that’s also not great, either, it’s important to understand, okay, this is what my strength is, this is what I’m good at. But also to remember that there are other people that have other strengths, and you need to work together. And it’s important to understand where your strengths lie. So you can use them responsibly and ethically. And understand what your weaknesses are. So you can work on improving those.

Murray Guest  32:13

Fantastic, I love how you’ve referenced your empathy a couple of times, and I can imagine that something you need to need to be conscious of in the way that you are empathetic, but also not getting fully involved in the emotions of your patients as well.

Sharon Hespe  32:29

 I must admit I’m quite good at that and what I say to patients, and this is one reason why I don’t do fertility work. And this might sound a bit strange, like, if I was to do fertility work, I would feel that it’s more responsibility to give you a baby, we’ve got work, it’s more responsibility to find out what’s going on to say to you, I need to do this, this and this and this. But when you decide to go home, and you decide that you’re not going to do that, that’s not my problem. I’ve given you all of the information. I’ve given you everything I can can. But you need to now take responsibility. And I will cut myself off there and say this is now your responsibility. I’m here to support you. But I need you to do something. I can’t do everything.

Murray Guest  33:12

Yeah, people need to do the work themselves, don’t they? 

Sharon Hespe  33:15

That’s correct yes. And that’s what I said, when I do that work. They feel fantastic. You know, people say to me, oh, thank you so much. Thank you. Let’s look, I’m just doing my job. You’ve done the work. And this is why you feel so good.

Murray Guest  33:29

I cut out dairy. And that was a challenge for me, particularly cheese. I love my cheese that I’d shifted my type of milk in my coffee some time ago. And also I cut out meat for some time, but I am eating some more meat there was what he was eating salmon and some other fishes might through that. But the way I felt was a lightness, I felt lighter. And my being. And I think there’s that, that heaviness with some foods and it doesn’t, it’s not just the heaviness in the gut. There was a heaviness over all my energy. So that lightness was something which I found, to be honest, the lightness I found addictive. I wanted to have more of that and feel like that and not feel the heaviness. 

Sharon Hespe  34:17

Yeah, that often that happens. Yes, yeah. 

Murray Guest  34:19

Yeah. Now, Sharon, Tell me please, what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Sharon Hespe  34:28

I think it’s inspiration to do things that are going to give you energy. 

Murray Guest  34:36

Love it. That’s such a beautiful, I think summary of what is all about for these conversations. And I think that anyone listening to this great chat with you, the good gut girl is going to get some inspiration to find out more about their gut and to feel that lightness and their energy and I love how you I talked about a new norm, not the norm that we have now that we get used to have that heaviness and changing that.

Sharon Hespe  35:06

That is so true, you know that the way that people can feel and do feel once they discover what’s going on, they got and they make those changes. And sometimes it’s as small as removing one or two foods and doing things like eating three meals a day stop snacking, just sometimes it just takes a small shift in things that no set of people there. So all that people sometimes do, I feel so silly should not know that. I say no, you know, you know what you know best. I know what I know best. And it’s up to me to share with you my knowledge so that you can learn how to get better yourself.

Murray Guest  35:43

Fantastic. Now, I love that nice a great way for us to wrap up. If someone wants to find out more about you and the work that you do and how you work with your patients where’s the best place to find you online. The best place is my website which is www dot the good girl.com.au I have quite a large Facebook group as well a quite a large following. And I post daily on Facebook and I’m in the middle at the moment of 50 tips in 50 days so I’ll be popping a gut tip a day up on Facebook so people can have a look on Instagram the good girl the underscore good underscore, underscore girl and just by email naturopathic Sharon his.com delay you so they some great links and make sure all those are in the show notes. And particularly I think that Facebook one where you’re sharing at the moment those 50 tips in 50 days for a good guy i think that’s that’s fantastic. So lots of information there for people. Make sure all those links are in the show notes and thank you again for your time and your knowledge. shares. This has been awesome. So thank you. I also want to encourage anyone that’s listening to this conversation with Sharon if you got something out of it and you want to share it online, I’d love you to do that. Please tag the good get go. And myself Murray Guest hashtag inspired energy because every time you share that everyone else gets to get your insight as well. So we we share the knowledge and inspiration. So shares Thanks again so much for your time and energy all the best for the rest of 2020 and for your health and keeping warm because it’s getting cold down here. But again, awesome chatting with you. 

Sharon Hespe  37:27

Thank you Murray was great to chat with you again too.

Episode 54 – Julie Jones | Productivity Ninja & Scuba Diver

We are currently in the throes of COVID-19 – Coronavirus – and in this episode my discussion with Julie Jones is centred around how this virus could help us all innovate, create better work environments, and utilise productivity in a much better way.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  

Julie, welcome to the podcast. I’m so looking forward to chatting to you. I mean, we talk all the time, but it’s great to get on you on the podcast. How are you?

Julie Jones  

I’m wonderful. Thanks, Murray. How are you today?

Murray Guest  

I’m doing pretty good. I mean, we were chatting OFF AIR about what’s going on in the world right now we have, obviously a pandemic, which is in the news quite a lot. And it’s impacting people in lots of different ways. What’s the the sense that you’re getting? And how you feeling about it at the moment?

Julie Jones  

Yeah, it’s been a really interesting time, I guess. I see so much happening around the world. As you know, I’m a scuba diver, I spend a lot of time underwater, and I’m seeing things changing under the water as well. So the oceans are seeing effects from obviously the bushfires we’ve had here, from the floods, from all of the temperature changes. So we’ve had really weird temperatures lately. 16, up to 24 degrees. So it’s really affecting everything. And I think that as human beings, we don’t realize that all of these systems are interrelated. So it’s really interesting to watch what happens when a pandemic is is kind of happening. The pandemic itself, I think it’s going to have far reaching consequences on all of us in terms of how we live our lives day to day. And I hope it will take us back to a bit of a grassroots movement, you know, some really basic stuff around how we work, where we work, and how we communicate with others. I think it’s really interesting to watch that play out. Yeah, you’re right. I think it’s interesting around some of the shifts of behavior, in a good way. I like that you’re saying we hope it’s something that inspires people to think about the way that we connect and work with each other, even how we travel to and from work as well. And we’re going to talk in this conversation shortly about your passion and knowledge around productivity. Because I think there’s so much to learn from that around the the isolation and working remotely and how we can learn from that so that we can still feel connected and be productive and feel inspired as well. Yeah, absolutely. It’s it’s a real, as you say, passion area of mine. So yeah, fire away. You’ve got some questions? Of course, always do now. But I want to get back to this whole scuba diving silliness. And I say that because we have different passions, of course. Now, why scuba diving for you? Well, I’ve always had a bit of a thing going on for biology and animals and science. And I started scuba diving, when I was about 18. Just sort of on holiday, I’d go and have a quick dip under the water and see what was there. And just found this world so exhilarating and exciting. I didn’t dive much during the years when my kids were little. But then as they grew a bit older, I started to get back into it again. And now I’m diving pretty much every week, I just find it the most wonderful place to be from an exploration point of view. But also, it’s just the most calm and wonderful place to be I find that when I’m in the zone, I’m completely in the zone. And it’s an amazing way to manage stress, which is obviously a really important thing for our society and culture today to be able to control stress and be able to, to work through how to manage our own physical reaction to that environment.

Murray Guest  

And I remember a conversation we had some time ago about when you go underwater when you are scuba diving and you see a shark and I was coming from the angle of Oh, I’d hate to see a shark because they’re so scary and you’re like I love seeing sharks.

Julie Jones  

Absolutely. Yeah, we don’t often see big dangerous sharks. We see small, beautiful sharks, we see sharks like gray nurses, we see swell sharks, we see Wobbygongs, Port Jackson sharks, and they’re all just the most amazing creatures, they’ve evolved over, you know, millions and millions of years. They’ve been around for a long, long time, a lot longer than us. And they are apex predators. They’re really there for the purposes of keeping the oceans healthy. And the biggest sharks, even the scary ones. I’ve dived with the tiger sharks over in Fiji and they are the most amazing creatures. And they’re there for a reason. And they are really not there to eat us. So it is exhilarating. It’s wonderful to see these creatures in their natural environment. And yeah, just I don’t know, I think once you’ve done it, you get the sense of or that comes through from that, rather than any fear because you start to learn more about them. And you understand I think it’s like anything, isn’t it? When we don’t understand something, we’re fearful. It’s a natural human reaction. So once you know more, and you start to educate yourself on who they are and what they are, and it becomes a lot less frightening.

Murray Guest  

I also wonder about that sense of our place in the world as humans and how maybe how small or insignificant we are when there’s that whole bigger world around us, as you were saying earlier about how much of obviously the world is covered by the ocean, seven tenths and do you you sometimes get that sense of, I don’t know that that sense of how big the world is, or even how much is going on around us that we just don’t know about.

Julie Jones  

I absolutely always and specifically and especially underwater, when you’re there yet, it’s you are such an observer, I do a lot of underwater photography too. And I try to capture those moments of, you’re looking at tiny ecosystems, you’re looking at huge ecosystems, you’re looking at how different species interact with each other. And it’s, it’s really quite fascinating. And I guess I feel really blessed that I can see that in such a way. You feel tiny, you feel really insignificant in that space, and the zone of the blue that stretches on forever. And it’s even more, I guess, I mean, it’s unknown, we I think we’ve been to the moon more than we’ve been up into space than we’ve we’ve actually explored our oceans, there’s so much more to know about what’s under the ocean, and the interaction that we have with it. So it’s really important to understand that otherwise, we you know, we damage the oceans, we damage the whole world.

Murray Guest  

So speaking of that interaction, and at the start of our conversation, you were talking about some of the changes you’ve been seeing, what do you see is going on? And what are your messages, I guess, that you’ve got about what you’re saying? 

Julie Jones  

Yeah so we’re seeing really weird stuff happening at the moment. So with all that, obviously, in Australia, the fires the floods, we’ve had temperature fluctuations, as I mentioned, we’re seeing things like we do every couple of months, we do what’s called a sea slugs census. And sea slugs are these tiny little creatures, they can be quite large, but mainly, they’re very small, sometimes really tiny, like half a fraction of the size of your fingernail. And these little guys, we’ve seen, you know, 200 – 300 species in the area that we’re diving up at Port Stephens in Nelson Bay. Yet yesterday, the census, normally I would get probably maybe 30 species out of the 300 or so that have ever been recorded in that area, yesterday, so forth. So we’re seeing big changes in the biodiversity, the number of species that we see the actual, we should be seeing, like at this particular point in time, masses of eggs hatching. So I guess I’m wondering whether there are changes in whether it’s the water temperature, whether it’s the freshwater coming into the salt water zones, that are impacting a lot of the number of species as well as the actual number of individuals in those species. And that impacts right through the food chain. And we see things like you know, jellyfish blooms, which are a sign of an unhealthy ocean, things like that, we see just such big changes in the oceans at the moment, which impact everything, the health of our whole planet.

Murray Guest  

And so as people listening to our conversation, when we consider then our impact on the ocean, I mean, I think about plastic and waste in the ocean, as you know, one of those big things that you see. But what I’m getting from this conversation, and I have people listening to is there’s all those other things we do which impact in the ocean that we just don’t even see as well.

Absolutely, yeah. So all of the toxins, and anything that we do around the water’s edge, things like our excavation for building sites, that kind of stuff, topsoil, erosion, runoff, chemicals running into the water. There’s so many elements that impact the oceans that we don’t even think of. So yeah, there’s waste, and there’s plastic. And there’s those kinds of things happening. But there’s so much more than that. I know, in our local area here at Terrigal, there’s a lot of sewage that’s going into the ocean at the moment, which makes the water dangerous. And there are toxic algal blooms, things like that that happen. So yeah, any of the things that we do on land impact the oceans, whether we think about that consciously or not, we are having an impact on every part of our ecosystem. Sorry, we’re getting very deep.

Murray Guest  

No, but I think it’s a really important discussion. I know how passionate you are about not just the activity of scuba diving, but the environment you do it in, in the ocean. And I think it’s an important awareness that we all need to have, as you said, there’s the day to day things that we can do, whether it’s the as we, you know, developing a property, for example, and how are we making sure that secure any toxins or waste going into the water? But obviously, there’s a big link here to, as you said earlier about the temperature fluctuations and climate change. And what are we doing to impact climate change to reduce that impacts so that there isn’t that foreign effect, obviously, to the oceans?

Julie Jones  

Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s going to be very interesting as we see how the pandemic plays out too. As we reduce the amount of air travel, we reduce the amount probably of travel, even on trains and things like that. And a reduction in our carbon footprint footprint potentially while all of us are in in lockdown, if that happens, it’s going to be interesting to see how we impact the planet in that way.

Murray Guest  

I saw a story the other day that the space station has identified a reduction in air pollution in Italy and China, due to the reduction of travel and business.

Julie Jones  

Yeah, isn’t that interesting?

Murray Guest  

Which obviously links to our conversation we’re having shortly around productivity and the, I guess the benefits that we can still have and the real benefit, it can be from working in these potential lockdown, but certainly working from home in different situations as well. But before we talk about that we’ve known each other for I’m trying to think, Julie, it’s got to be over 20 years easy.

It is over 20 I think I’ve been in Australia now 27 years? I think so. Yeah, I think and I was down in Victoria for five, six. About 22 years I think, Murray since we first met.

Murray Guest  

Yep. And so you used to be a marketing manager at Master Foods, which is a part of Mars Incorporated. And I had a role in quality. And I think we got along most of the times, I think quality and marketing generally get along don’t they, I think?

Julie Jones  

Generally, generally. Yeah, I think so.

Murray Guest  

But I honestly, I haven’t talked about this a lot on the podcast series, just a how many good memories I have, from my time at Master Foods working for Mars Incorporated. They’re regularly on the list or at the top of the list of great places to work and the culture they have. I just want to check in what’s your memory of your time at Master Foods?

Julie Jones  

Yeah, well, I, I actually started with Mars over in the UK. So when I came over, I think I spent 16 years at Mars in total. And I felt like I kind of grew up at Mars. And it was an amazingly entrepreneurial kind of culture, and very into risk taking, creativity, doing new things, you know, so that some of the stuff that I did in marketing was just cutting edge. I loved doing it. My boss was particularly inspiring, in terms of really moving out there and doing new things. So yeah, it was a great culture to learn about being creative and driving a brand through new and interesting ways. So the advent, obviously, of the internet, of things like Facebook, was really interesting to watch that evolve over time. I feel really old saying this.

Murray Guest  

It’s funny, I remember, because back in back in the day, when I used to manage the Consumer Services team, and it was pre social media. So it was a very different, as you’re saying, from a marketing point of view, and that connection with consumers, it was a different connection than what it is today.

Julie Jones  

Yeah, absolutely. And Mars very, I mean, forward thinking in terms of things like shared working spaces, co working spaces, that was always the way at Mars, they were always open plan. And that is now obviously becoming much the norm. But in our days working there at Mars, that was just the way it was, I think.

Murray Guest  

I’ll say we probably had 150 odd people in one office, didn’t we, an open plan?

Yeah absolutely. And literally no screen dividers, nothing. Clean desk policy. So just very, basically open plan. So lots of collaboration, lots of communication around the office. And, but that, consequently, I think also makes it hard to get stuff done. It’s one of the things we talk about in productivity terms is, you know, open plan is great for collaboration, but not so good for doing the work. So I think we have to have to find ways to balance that kind of environment out.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. And I’ve noticed in my clients and some of those that have created new workspaces or new offices that have moved in the last couple of years, they’re trying to find a balance between the very old office setup of people in offices and very separate to the very open plan. And I’ve placed between those two, where it is open, but at the same time, there’s a bit of segregation, there’s more breakout areas and areas for those collaborative conversations as well.

Julie Jones  

And it’s critical, it’s really important to get both of those things as our business, as you know, Murray is called Think Productive. And we teach productivity, with our gorgeous little productivity ninja characters. And, and one of those areas that we talk about is stealth and camouflage, which is where we want to go and get stuff done. So we have to have time when we’re collaborating. And we’re sharing, we’re in meetings, always spending time with others during work. But it’s really critical for us to be productive when we are able to get stuff done on major projects or pieces of work that we have to do. And so being able to step away and create that environment where we can do our best thinking is really critical. And certainly in in co-working spaces. It’s very hard to do that. So I actually think it’s going to be really interesting to see with the potential lockdown how people respond to working from home for two weeks, I’m personally really excited about the idea of being home and getting so much stuff done. So, yeah, it’s gonna be really an interesting environment to see how technology can support us in this space as well. Just as we’re doing now, you know, Skyping, zooming, all of those kind of technologies can really help us to stay connected, and to keep business environments working and working well. But I think people will realize the power of creating space for themselves to actually get good work done.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I think that the thing that I think about from a cultural point of view is the culture of trust and empowerment that’s so important in these situations. So if you’ve got team members working from home, and a couple of my clients have already implemented split operations, whether divided their teams into a&b, and taking turns to work from home and the office are week about. And that’s a strategy to reduce the impact on the business if someone does become a carrier of the Coronavirus, or one of the strains, of course, but what I think about from a leadership perspective and a culture perspective, and I love your I’d love to get your perspective is we actually need to trust our people, we need to trust our teams, and empower them and hold them accountable to do what they need to do when they are working from home and working remotely. And I think unfortunately, in some cultures, the this is going to highlight where some of that is missing.

Julie Jones  

Yeah, I agree completely. Murray, I think that there are certain businesses that are already embracing this kind of environment. And you can certainly see if you have a business that has offices in different states, they will be much more trusting of their, their teams, and they will have already sort of worked through how to communicate best between team spaces. I have one client that I work with a lot in the ninja space, who are just they’re amazing at how they’re embracing a lot of the productivity kind of techniques and tools, they have a Melbourne office and a Sydney office. And every Friday, they have what they call their Friday catch up. So a bit of a Yay, kind of environment where they’re they’re sharing the wins of the week, they’re spending time and it’s all done over zoom or Skype or Google Hangouts in a way that creates trust between the teams. And they encourage their teams to work off site work from home, they have other shared working spaces that they can use, but they’re really becoming a lot more open about expectation. So it’s shifting that measure of, you know, you are productive if you’re sitting at your desk from nine to five every day, to a much more results based culture. So these are the things that we achieved in this week. How amazing is that? Doesn’t matter that you weren’t sitting at your desk from nine to five. So I think that’s going to be a big shift that we’ll see.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and again, shifting away from this. I guess this approach that we are robots, you need to be a desk from nine to five, the siren goes at morning at 1030 back to work, you know, clock in clock out. It doesn’t sound inspiring, doesn’t sound engaging, and nobody I know, do people really want to work with it? I don’t think so.

Julie Jones  

No, exactly. And all the research we see is showing that the more trust we have in our employees, the more we give them freedom to achieve results and show them what is expected. And obviously modeling great behavior from from the leadership team down is critical to making sure this works, that the research is showing that that’s where the most productive companies are. They’ve already moved to this model of working. So you know, a lot there are going to be companies out there that think Yeah, working from home remotely for two weeks. That’s no problem. Teams are going to be great. They’re already set up for it. Others will be rushing around, I heard somebody saying the other day, no, they’ve got to go through and work out what sort of computer you have at home, what sort of internet you have at home, is it possible for you to work there. So there’s going to be a lot of catch up, I think there’s going to be quite a few people trying to figure out how to make this work for their organization. But hopefully it will be a big shift that will help everyone to feel that in an environment where we are, you know, technologically, we have so many resources available, how do we best use that to create productivity, produce work.

Murray Guest  

And whilst there is a very serious element to what we’re talking about with the health of people, and the well being and obviously, there’s been cases that people haven’t survived around in the world. So yes, there’s a very serious element. But I think what we are exploring is through what is going on right now there is such a great opportunity for organizations to think about how can we use this as a way to leverage our innovation. Setting expectations, as you said, is so important, and creating a even deeper and stronger culture of trust and empowerment.

Julie Jones  

Yeah, I agree completely. And I think the other thing that as individuals, so I think organizationally, those things are going to be really critical. And I think giving individuals within the organizations, the tools to help them feel that this isn’t a bad thing, this is actually a really great way to maybe hone in on all of the work that I’m currently doing reflect on the projects that I’m working on, reflect on the goals and objectives I have for the year. You know, if it’s if it’s two weeks, and I’m isolated for even a month or even longer, you know, how do I best use my time? How do I start to become much more proactive and responsible for my own workload, my education, my interactions with colleagues? How do we structure around that? And I think there are loads of things that we can do to keep people connected even when they’re not together? Yeah, so yeah, lots of opportunities there.

Murray Guest  

I totally agree. And I think that it’s interesting, the way that some people are responding and others are seeing it as I guess, a bit of a threat. And I think what I love to know, Julie is from a productivity ninja perspective, how do you see the work that you do and Think Productive does, helping people the best it can through this?

Julie Jones  

Yeah, it’s, I see, it’s really funny. For me, I guess, as a productivity ninja and, and using these tools every day, it feels kind of innately that this is just going to help everybody just to smooth the waters a little and move through easily. So in terms of our ninjas, you know, we talk about boss thinking versus work mode, getting people to really understand that they need both kinds of thinking. So boss thinking, it’s the planning, it’s the organization, it’s the prioritization, it’s the setting goals and objectives and measuring against them. Everybody if they can work, if they can work to encourage their employees to be very boss driven. So self starting, proactive, really organized around these things I think we can see that will help people in the home environment be able to really focus in on what do I need to do rather than being told what to do. And then the the counter mode to the boss thinking is the worker mode. And that’s where we actually get the work done. So really making sure that everyone has a clear view of what needs to be done in the week in the day is going to be much easier if people are more start self starting to do that. As I mentioned, I think the stealth and camouflage Ninja, which is often the bit that we struggle with in in modern businesses, my dog has just come out of the bedroom, probably hearing moving around.

Murray Guest  

And a gorgeous dog as well.

Julie Jones  

Yes, I’m just I’m just gonna let him out Murray. Cool. And now dogs barking. And so yeah, so stealth and camouflage. So really being great at going dark and getting stuff done. I think, employees, managers, everyone in business is going to learn how to actually be productive in this quiet environment. So becoming used to their own environment in the home space, I think is going to be interesting. I personally love my home space, I’ve set it up, as in a way that just inspires me. And I love being at home and working from home. I think having the flexibility to be in your own environment where you know it really well is going to be great for a lot of people and others it might take some time to adjust to but I’d really encourage everybody to, to really love their workspace. So surround yourself with the things that inspire you know, I’ve got I’ve got little signs on the wall saying do what you love every day. And I’ve got pictures of my diving around me, I’ve got all of my work stuff on the desk that I love to be around in terms of Ninja, and being really focused on that can really help I think, create a space that gives you some boosting energy for your productivity. And…

Murray Guest  

Can I just add, Julie, I think what’s also really important is the conversations that people need to have at home, when they’re creating that space, just like you would have work around getting that clarity around expectations and how you going to work with each other. You need to do that at home as well. So when you’re setting up that space, and when you need some time to be focused or to be really in boss mode and and thinking about what’s on your plate, or that deep thinking whatever it might be that the people you spend your time with at home, understand those boundaries and setting those up. And sometimes they can be a bit difficult. But I think setting those up is just as important as the physical environment.

Julie Jones  

I agree completely. And certainly if you are sharing a home space and you’re all on lockdown together that is going to be a challenge. So having really clear understanding of who’s doing what on the day, whether there are meetings or appointments, things like this, where we’re doing zoom calls, and where we’re going to need quiet sometimes, you can allocate certain spaces in the house that work for people. And I’m very lucky, I have two teenagers in the house that tend to spend a lot of time in their rooms. So it doesn’t really worry me. I’m working. And but yeah, making sure that others understand the environment that you’re working from home in as well. Like, for me, the dog barking for most of the time, that’s fine, because I’ve got clients on the other end of the phone or on a zoom call that understand I’m working from home. So just being clear on those things can really help everybody just to connect and feel a little bit more relaxed about the environment that they’re in.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I think that’s a really good point, too, that you want to feel not just comfortable at home, but also feel really confident in what you’re doing. And if you’re talking to someone on the phone, and the dog barks or you know, the door opens, I’ve been in my office at home, and we’ve had a delivery from a toll from a delivery company have had to answer the door. It’s just, that’s just reality of the situation. It doesn’t make it any less professional. It’s just being really clear and honest about what’s happening at the moment.

Julie Jones  

I agree completely. And I think the number of interruptions we probably have in the office far outweigh what we will have at home. And that’s one of the big things that shifting to home based working really showed me was that my productivity boosts through the roof, I get so much more done at home because I have lots of great focused thinking time. So you know, as ninjas, we teach people to be really weapon savvy, and find the things that work for them things that actually boost productivity. So things like the Pomodoro Technique, 25 minutes sprint, five minute off. And this is a focused period of time where you go, I’m going to do this one thing, and I’m going to do it really well. If you can do that, you can do that more easily at home, when you have big periods with that with no interruptions. In a workspace where you have colleagues around you all the time, that becomes much more difficult, much more challenging. So finding the right tools and techniques and ideas that can help you be productive, and stay on track. I know being home can be distracting in that, when you first get used to it, it’s like all I can just put some washing on while I’m doing stuff or I can just go do something else. Or for some of us, it may be that we get into procrastination mode, and we don’t focus on getting started. So that’s really good, too, is to really focus in on what gets me started in the morning. Is it the morning, or am I better off in the afternoon, working out how we are most productive helps us to then hone that into the work that we need to do from home.

Murray Guest  

So I’ve developed and it may have been from conversations with you, or from Matt at Think Productive before around setting myself small little rewards. So sometimes I might have something that I need to do. And I’m a little bit like I don’t want to do this. But I love my morning coffee. So what all sort of say to myself is get this done, then you can have your coffee. So I set those little rewards. And it seems to get me focused because I have trouble staying focused, to be honest.

Julie Jones  

Yeah, it’s absolutely critical Murray. Rewards are great. Most importantly, I think is, as you said, making it small as well start small, just build on that energy, you just get little things done. And you’ll find that what happens when we get things done, if if somebody is a list writer, and they like to tick things off the list, ticks on lists can become addictive. So it releases an endorphin hit into your brain, which is a feel good hormone. And those things help us to just keep that little journey of productivity building and building and building. So yeah, working on those things is really important. I think, also Murray, what I’d say is that there’s a saying, which is just know thyself, I think we need to know how we best work. So being mindful around productivity is really key. If I’m a morning person, I’m gonna get started early, I like to get up I get up really early, I can work from like six till 10, I’ve got half a day done. And I can get so much done in that day. It’s almost like doing a whole day in the office. So know if your productive time is in the morning, the afternoon, the evening, plan around that, know where you work best. And make sure that you have that all kind of scoped out so that you can make that environment happen for you. It may be that the coffee shop, you know works really well for you. Maybe we won’t want to go and sit and hang out in coffee shops coming up in the next little while. But find other spaces that connect that for you. So is it having your coffee on your desk? Is it making sure that you’ve got things around you that inspire you to be productive? Try techniques, try things that help, check out our website thinkproductive.com.au lots of little ideas on there. And if anybody wants to talk more about productivity, just give me a yell. I’m really happy to chat through just different ideas and techniques on this stuff. Big question, Murray. And it’s been a big shift for me. So we’ve said, you know, I worked at Mars for a long time, I also worked at Sara Lee McCain for a long time. So the corporate marketing space for me was always a bit of a passion, too. I loved working there, but very high pressure, and lots of hours, and really very stressful. So, as you know, Murray, over my last 10 years, I’ve had two incidences where I’ve had a friend called cancer in my life, which has really impacted how I’ve looked at moving forward and what I do with my life. And finding ninja was a really big one. For me, it sounds like I found God, but it’s almost kind of the same thing. And it’s really got me to focus on how I do things and being mindful around taking care of myself at the same time, which I think a lot of us don’t do, we tend to get more focused on productivity from I’ve got to squeeze more stuff in. That’s not what this is about. This is about doing the right things, it’s about being focused on creating momentum in a way that’s sustainable. And in a way that is, is inspiring, and exciting and fun, and doesn’t mean that you burn out. And that is just the biggest issue that people are facing in today’s society. So yeah, for me, it’s been life changing. And it’s why I am passionate about it, why I love to share what we do, because it’s really important to understand our physiological responses to that stress, which can make us very sick. And I think more and more businesses are becoming aware that by having a balanced approach to productivity, work life balance, if you want to call it that, it’s critical to employee satisfaction, health and well being and moving forward, it’s how we’re going to be more productive as an as a world.

Murray Guest  

So Jules, I know. And I hope everyone’s hearing it as well how passionate you are and knowledgeable about productivity. And what we’re talking about today, for those that aren’t aware, and I probably haven’t covered this, my apologies, is from the work of Graham Allcott and his book Productivity Ninja and you obviously are now helping people, individuals, teams, students become more productive through some of the key insights and tools from Productivity Ninja, which is part of Think Productive. You’ve been doing this for a few years, I would just love to know what it’s meant for you to have this understanding about productivity? And how has it impacted your life? And I love the insight that I got back when I read Productivity Ninja around, it’s about attention management, not time management. And I’ve heard you say a number of times time management is dead. And where we invest our, our attention, our energy, and how we do it more consciously is just so important, isn’t it?

Julie Jones  

It is absolutely, and one of the big areas that I I’m kind of personally focusing in on at the moment and developing as part of our suite of tools is to ensure that people start thinking a lot more about dreaming, then doing, so thinking about, we often have a bit of a dream, we might do a vision board personally, at the beginning of the year, we might have an idea of kind of the goals and objectives that we have from work that we need to focus on for the year. But then converting that into action is a really big step. So helping people to understand how to do that, I think is really key. And being able to connect the dots so that we have a holistic approach. So it’s not that, you know, we have a vision board at home. And that’s the that we only look at that now and again and say, Oh, I wish I’ve got those dreams to happen this year, is connecting everything together and saying what does my world look like? What does my life look like, from the perspective of all of the dreams that I want to come true? And how can I integrate that into our daily way of working, so that we achieve our goals that we step forward into a space that’s really positive. And that’s a bit of a personal passion for me at the moment.

Murray Guest  

I also think that link between that vision board those dreams we have as a person and what that means in our day to day work we do. Because I think the whole idea of work life balance just is just ridiculous. There is no work life. It’s all life, and work is part of our life and to even say work life. It’s sort of saying all the good parts of life are part of work, isn’t it?

Julie Jones  

That’s exactly right. And I think that you absolutely can do both at the same time.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Jules what’s been the impact you’ve seen on teams that you’ve worked with, helping them understand these characteristics of being a Productivity Ninja, how’s it helped them, what it meant for them?

Julie Jones  

And I guess this is where it gets really exciting when you see people talking the language of productivity ninja talking about things like stealth and camouflage or being human, not superhero, or being an agile ninja. It’s really exciting to see teams embracing these ideas and concepts because they start to have fun at work. They start to be a little bit unorthodox, they start to have fun as a team which boosts productivity. This is scientifically proven, you know, some of these concepts and aspects really help people to to survive, not just to survive, but to actually thrive at work and that’s a really important one for me. So I find that really exciting. We have actually some clients last year down, would you believe they had a team day at thredbo down at the snow. And we did a whole day of ninja workshops down at thredbo. And that was an awesome way for them to connect as a team. And these guys are the guys that work remotely in Sydney and Melbourne. And they all came together, they had a great ninja day. And afterwards when I caught up with them six months later, they were still talking about ninja and they were still talking about the the concepts, the language around it, and they’d had actually had one guy that’s kind of their ninja champion within the business. And he’s helping and encouraging other team members with things like technology that they’re challenged with or concepts of how to be more productive. So it you see this flow through in teams and it becomes an a language that’s easy in art. It’s articulated through everything that they do. And it’s yeah, it’s really I find it very exciting to see teams get, I guess, a better work life balance, if we want to call it that again, or just life you know, they’re doing life now with an energy and a fun aspect to it. That is really inspiring.

Murray Guest  

I’ve just got to share. You’ve inspired me, I think I need to run my next workshop in Thredbo. Mountain Biking with my clients. Absolutely. Just putting it out there anyone listening if you want to do that? I heard you got some skiing while you’re down there too. I hope.

Julie Jones  

I did. I did. Yes, absolutely.

Murray Guest  

You’re pretty good on the skis from memory.

Julie Jones  

Oh, I’m okay. I’m an intermediate, I think.

Murray Guest  

So, from a productivity point of view, we’ve talked about a few of the different characteristics of being a Productivity Ninja, which one haven’t we covered at this point?

Julie Jones  

Well, the one I think I will talk I would love to just mention again is unorthodoxy ninja. And this is I think in the current climate one that we all need to embrace a little bit more. And unorthodoxy ninja is about doing things differently. It’s experimenting, and it’s actually telling, challenging ourselves to go with the flow a little bit, and not be scared by trying new things. So I think all of us are going to need to be a bit unorthodox about embracing the current global situation and try things like working from home, even if you’re not on lockdown, give it a go see what happens. Try setting up, instead of a meeting, I’m supposed to be flying to Melbourne tomorrow for meetings for two days, which I don’t think is going to happen, to be honest, given the current climate. But how could we do that differently? How do we set up Skype calls that are interactive? Can we send materials ahead of time so that we can still all be working on certain things together? How do we create environments for our clients, for our customers, that allow them to still be immersed in our brands or our conversations or our businesses in a way that’s engaging, so really thinking outside the square? To do that, I think it’s going to be really interesting. So I’d encourage everybody to be a little bit more unorthodox, build with a mad scientist and just try some new things. Even if it’s for a day or a week, try something different, and have some fun doing it. This will help us to really boost our productivity and find new ways to remain productive in an environment that’s a little bit challenging.

Murray Guest  

I love that. And can I just add one I’ve been thinking about as well. I’m sure it’s the same in many cities around the world. I’ve seen it in Sydney whenever I’m in there and just how jam packed the transport is, the train system is, when everyone’s going to work in the morning and the afternoon. What does it look like to actually start work earlier? Or start work later? And how can you set that up so that you were spreading out the contact with other people but also that we are making it easier on the system as well. So I wonder what that could look like in someone’s workplace. 

Julie Jones  

Yeah brilliant idea, Murray. Inventing a little bit of a like a mini shift system could be could work really well.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. I think so. And of course, operationally, these things need to happen. But right now with what’s happening with this pandemic, I think the number one has to be people’s health and well being and I love what we’ve been talking about, Jules, around how the the traits, the insights, the tools of Productivity Ninja and can be applied right now to help people deal with what’s going on in a real productive way.

Julie Jones  

Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, the world doesn’t stop. We all have to work. We all have to be involved in some of the stuff that we probably don’t want to be involved in with the the Coronavirus, but it’s really great to have tools that can help us to just be a little bit different with it not not just sit back and kind of go, Okay, well, I’m stuck at home for two weeks, but take a more proactive and positive ability to influence our environment.

Murray Guest  

Oh, so and I know that you are sharing out with your clients in the coming days. From Think Productive, you’re sending out some information around some of what we’re talking about. So I would love to share that with my people as well. So I’ll make sure I get that. And of course, we’ll have links in the show notes to Think Productive, and to you as well. I want to ask you a question. I just want to go back to your point around a vision board and someone’s personal goals. And this question popped into my head, I didn’t want to miss the chance to ask you. I guess I’m thinking about what’s on your vision board, what’s on your goals of maybe where you want to dive or maybe some other things you want to experience?

Julie Jones  

Yeah, my vision board is full of a lot of blue, blue underwater shots of things like diving with whale sharks, which is still on my list this year. And it’s also though it’s quite a an interesting mix of things on my board this year. We are due to actually go to a balloon, hot air balloon festival in April. I’m hoping that will still go ahead, but who knows. And so yeah, being up in the sky in a hot air balloon is also a bit of a goal and passion of mine, and lots of other elements on my border around keeping focus on my health and well being. So keeping balance, and really focusing on not getting sucked into, I guess, working all costs, and not having some fun along the way. So really balancing that out. One thing I wanted to mention Murray too, was was something that’s just recently hit me in setting goals. I’m pretty focused on being quite goal oriented. I like to be action oriented too and get things done.

Julie Jones  

I’ve just recently been exploring more with smart goals. So as we start to set objectives and goals for work or for home, and personal life, what struck me with smart goals? So you would remember Murray, SMART goals being a specific goal where we set some target for ourselves, measurable, attainable, is it relatable? And is it timely? I think we often in business set goals like this, to make sure it’s very measurable. However, what I’m finding is they’re not very inspiring. So for me, I’ve actually made my goals smartie goals. So I’ve added an i and e at the end, so is it inspiring? Is it exciting? Does it really energize me and get me moving. And I think if we can ensure that we set goals that really do that, for us across every aspect of our lives, we’ve got a better chance of actually delivering them. I know that for myself, smart goals, to me are pretty boring, it’s all about measurement, it’s all about being very focused in on getting stuff done in a certain timeframe. But smartie goals to me really energize me. So that’s just something I’d love to challenge people on thinking about.

Murray Guest  

I love that. And I’m just picturing the smarties there and how I feel when I eat Smarties and but I’ve heard of smarter goals, which has the E and R. But I like the smartie a lot. And it does link to inspired energy with that being inspired, and you’ve got some energy, and yet it’s energizing, and you want to take action on it. So I actually like it being at the end of the smart process too. Because let’s say if you’re looking at setting yourself a goal, or as a leader, you’re setting your team or people on your team a goal. You can, at the end, do that final check and say so after we’ve been through this, is it really inspiring. And are you motivated to go and do it?

Julie Jones  

Exactly right. Yeah. And I can tell you right now, some of my work goals in the past have not been very inspiring or energizing. So yeah, I think having that lens on, it really helps people to get connected to achieving results and being more productive in that way.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, love it. Thank you. Now just to double check, though, is there anything else that you would love to add in your definition of inspired energy? Oh, and you can’t say scuba diving.

Julie Jones  

I did, I did sort of my head did go there. But I think what it, what we have to look at is what is our long term vision, our long term goal. So for me, as you know, Murray, my goal is I’m going to work three days and dive for four, so my week does revolve a lot around diving and being underwater and spending time in the space that I love. But I also am so passionate about productivity. And I see that my workshops, the work that I do with with corporates and individuals around productivity is still so much part of who I am and what I want to be able to help with in the world. So that’s how I guess, is my sense of purpose. And so being able to always ladder back to that bigger objective, I think is really important. So we need our energy to be inspired. We need our energy, energy to be focused on that laddering right up to that very holistic, top level goal. That really inspires us. And so yeah, making sure we do that I think will help us to all be much more productive on a daily basis.

Murray Guest  

Wonderful. I’ve absolutely loved to talking to you today, Julie about scuba diving, about ways that we can take action right now with what is going on in the world, about your insights around productivity and what it’s meant for you and the people you work with. It’s been such an inspiring chat. And I’m so glad we’re able to do it right now. So to help people with what is going on in the world. And besides right now, there’s so much that we just covered I think that helps people no matter where we are and what time of the year. But obviously, it’s a bit of a an interesting time in this moment. So thank you very much.

Julie Jones  

You’re very welcome, Murray, thank you for having me. And I just want to extend that offer. If anybody needs to chat about working remotely, please Murray feel free to put my phone number and email address and everything on the contacts. Because yeah, it can be a bit scary and daunting if you haven’t done it before. So really happy to chat.

Murray Guest  

Yes, that is such a beautiful thing to offer Julie. Thank you. I will make sure in our notes, you’ll find links to Julie-Anne Jones on LinkedIn, Think Productive and Julie’s email and also the Facebook page for Think Productive Australia. If anyone has got anything out of this, and I’m sure you have there’s been so much we’ve covered, please share it on social media on Instagram or LinkedIn or Twitter and make sure you include Julie and myself and link us as well. Again, Jules so great to chat. Look forward to seeing you again soon. And I love your passion for what you do. And maybe one day just maybe one day I’ll get in the water with you.

Julie Jones  

That would be awesome. Thanks very much for having me Murray.

Murray Guest  

Thank you. Have a great week. Bye everyone.