Episode 82 – Minter Dial | Authentic Leadership (You Lead)

In this episode I speak with Minter Dial, a fellow podcaster and author who’s passionate about bringing about change through business and leadership. Minter boosts a 16 year career as a top exec at L’Oreal, involvement in 3 startups, award-winning producer and author of three published books.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:00

Minter, so glad to receive your message to come on the podcast and have a chat. And I’ve been reading all about what you’ve been doing these last few years, your book, your movie, and what you do, and just starting to chat to you now about your passions. I’m so excited about this conversation, looking forward to sharing some of your knowledge and talking about your book that’s coming out early next year as well. You’ve been quite busy, because I know to write a book takes a lot of time and energy. Before we get into that, though, how are you right now at the end of 2020?

Minter Dial  00:41

Thanks for having me on the show, Murray. And the answer that is, I think, unapologetically tired. I think that the the efforts that has taken to transition, not to mention deal with the stuff. But what it’s taken as a 56 year old is quite the, you know, Oh, I got to get back on some kind of other treadmill, which requires other skills and another rhythm. And I’d like to say we, I mean, basically, the times are changing. Sure. But I actually think time has changed; the way we evaluate time and how you live time. And actually, why are we living. And all this takes a weight and I’ve not been the same type of energetic person who has, I’ve had to intentionally look for other ways to generate energy, which used to come sort of somewhat naturally. That’s where I am.

Murray Guest  01:41

I was talking to someone the other day, and I said, How you feeling? And they said, I feel everything. And I echo that, because right now I feel quite calm, quite relaxed, but also feel quite tired. I feel energetic to speak to you. I feel like 2020 has been a year of we can put so many adjectives in front of that. And it is, yeah, there’s a tiredness, but at the same time, I think there’s a real reset about perspective on what’s important. And I think you and I have a passion for connection and, and conversations and how that’s coming back around. I hope it is.

Minter Dial  02:21

Well I totally agree. And I’m gonna say that part of my challenge is, is trying to figure out which conversations we’re even allowed to have. Because not only do I feel like we’re more divisive, I feel like there’s a lot of things we’re no longer allowed to say. And, and as such, that’s a weight. And I sort of look at that as being a problem, where we can trigger too often by saying anything out of context.

Murray Guest  02:53

And that I was going to say and to jump in and that the need to be right and the need to be validated of a point of view, which confirms where you are, which then confirms and creates more divisiveness, because I’m recruiting more people that think like I do, versus having that different opinion, and create some really constructive, you know, learning opportunities and connecting opportunities.

Minter Dial  03:24

Learning opportunities, really, because bridging into other opinions and other perspectives can also be really enriching if you’re open to it. So it’s not about like, well, I’m right, you’re wrong, which is you’re fighting and that’s energy. But it’s sort of a Boolean energy. You either win or you lose. And there’s another energy which comes through building and constructing and learning and accepting that I’m wrong at times to reset like you say, to come back and be stronger for.

Murray Guest  04:02

And what about all of the bits in between the the right the wrong? The Yes, the no, along the spectrum of opinion of it’s not exactly what you’re saying or exactly what I’m saying. It’s what about what about all those perspectives between those, or as someone I met last year, Pete Holliday, a great guy, and he said to me, you know, what’s the third answer?

Minter Dial  04:28

Well, I feel like as we get more and more angry about things, we get more and more adamant and less open to listening, and more black and white. And, and this is the deal. I mean, really, it’s it’s pretty much always depends like every good consultant right? It depends. But it is in the nuance, and it is in the context. And sometimes one word might be the wrong word. But if it were said in 1820 well that was the context. And we should study the history around which it was said in that context. And not feel like that too needs to be thrown out. In today’s world, yeah, that that wouldn’t be good. But we should be able to understand in different contexts, different things. So I use sort of an exaggerated historical references, but out of context, you can say something in a, for example, on social media, and it can be ripped out like, Well, you didn’t do the right hashtag, huh.

Murray Guest  05:36

Yeah, what happened about being human. And, you know, we don’t get it right all the time. And we’re making 1000s of decisions every day. And to put those expectations on someone with the words they use the way they might frame something up or explain something, or explain how they’re feeling, or sharing something on social media, that it needs to be perfect all the time. And it’s never going to be. I’ve had both my feet jammed in my mouth a number of times, and words still come out. It’s about where do we have a bit of grace and kindness for each other? And, you know, this leads to your new book doesn’t it, around how, or even empathy, and you talk so much about your last book about that about how important empathy is. So how do you think we get back to that place of more empathy and kindness?

Minter Dial  06:32

Well, so I think we’re, we’re destined to have lots of badness because the human being has bad and good. And I mean, you’ve seen in the pandemic, lots of amazing things happen, but you’ve also seen a whole lot of shit. And in cyber hacking, recently, my sister’s hospital, she works in Baltimore, in cardiopulmonary critical care. And her hospital has been attacked just recently with ransomware. So these are some buggers who want to get some money out of a hospital. Yikes. Anyway, so I think that’s a reality.

Murray Guest  07:11

I heard on a short podcast series last year, where this similar thing happened with a council in the UK. And these are just the ones we hear about, there’s all the other ones, of course, that are happening, which we don’t know about. But again, as you’re saying these things that are coming out of society, again, a complete opposite to empathy and compassion and appreciation.

Minter Dial  07:39

So that was a sort of just a table stakes it, as in, we’ve got shit to deal with, and shit will always happen. And I think that’s also part of it. So I tend personally to put try to put things, so I think the answer to that has to be, I’m gonna start with how I’m going to deal with it. Because I’m not going to be able to fix the world. But if I can at least model the behavior and figure out my path, then maybe that’s, that’s, that’s a way for it. It’s nothing worse than being like the guy who talks about empathy, but not being empathic. And which is an interesting challenge when you write about this stuff. And so I actually want to practice self empathy, and also want to be walking the talk. So if I don’t feel well, I should be able to say, I don’t feel well, it doesn’t mean any lesser thing. I’m going to tell you a funny thing. I mean, I was brought up a stiff upper lip rugby player 18 years. And you don’t bring emotions you don’t show bad emotions anyway. And, and I remember the first time I cried in public, which I completely didn’t expect, on top of which it was for a really prestigious audience, around about maybe 60 or 80 journalists, and rather well known people, so I had stress involved. And this was not the time to break down. And of course, the first thing I thought about was Oh, shit, I can. Oh, my God, I’m so embarrassed. Oh, god, I’m so sorry. You know, I was sobbing and it got worse.

Murray Guest  09:20

The shame for the showing of the emotion.

Minter Dial  09:23

Oh, God, it was just I was like, Oh, this is this is a disaster. So I sort of then then they started clapping. That was very nice. I’m like, oh, they’re being nice to be generous. Cool. All right. But that’s still, I was a fuckup. Okay, let me get back on the track. And then I’ll focus in on what I got to say. And anyway, I remember at the end, sort of wondering how, sheepishly wondering how it is going to happen and one of the journalists came up and hugged me. And, and certainly didn’t look like he was thinking I was any worse for it. Anyway, so back to the answers. How do you get through this? Well, I have sort of committed to making sure that I visibly for myself, do things which are important according to my language every day, and if I can show that it doesn’t need to be a dictatorship of purpose, like it doesn’t need to be a tyranny of empathy either. But if I can make sure that I’m doing some things that are important, that are bringing me back energy, then I’m tapping into something that’s bigger. And hopefully, that’s what we all can do a little bit more of ourselves.

Murray Guest  10:36

Yeah, I’m thinking about the other part of your story of through you showing your emotion. As much as in the moment, you felt exposed, and vulnerable, and shame and all of that. But that created a space for that journalist to give you a hug, for him to show, I assume him sorry, emotion as well. And, you know, the space you create, through that moment, and you talk about walking the talk, and there’s future moments of, I’m showing up with my true emotions and empathy, then that creates a space for others to do that as well.

Minter Dial  11:15

And I am still learning. Murray, the other day, I was interviewed by a journalist. And I got my guard up. Because I was taught my experience showed me that if you let too much out or didn’t say the right thing on the record off the record, you get screwed, bam. Yeah, that’s how it goes. And so I bought it I bought in my shield. And at least, you know, I tried to say good things, right, Murray, but I was I know that I was, you know, careful around the edges. And, and then we ended up having this journalist revealing to me some deepest secrets. I found how extraordinary I came into this thinking I should be guarded. And the journalist opened up to me.

Murray Guest  12:07

Hmm.

Minter Dial  12:09

And it was with no other bad malicious intent. But by goodness, we had added on an extra hour to our conversation, talking about life and shit. And it just, we ended with high energy.

Murray Guest  12:21

Yeah, yeah. And as that journalist opened up to you, that shield that you brought in how quickly did that drop, yeah, threw it away.

Minter Dial  12:31

I mean, and then I was revealing my stuff and, and the stories beget stories, but if they’re real stories, not like just cosmetic or commercial stories, that you know that storytelling, oh, yeah, it’s really great storytelling, but so many people don’t tap into something that’s real within the story. When you’re running a company, you do the story, the founder story was not me the founder, but you know, I’ll tell the story and I try to use up or at least own it somehow, but I don’t link into it on a personal level. And that has, there are two problems to that – one is people know that it’s not genuine. And two, you’re gonna bore yourself. I’m telling this fucking story all over again. Oh, and where’s my energy? So somehow, with storytelling, in general, is the ability to go into who you really are in a professional space where I’m going to tell you some shit that, you know, you would imagine to be the stuff I tell you at a bar over a couple of scotches. I mean, that’s, that’s how it used to be.

Murray Guest  13:40

Yeah, well, I think about the Cowboys sitting around the campfire sharing stories, or people at the end of the harvest, sitting around chatting, or prior to mobile phones, smartphones sitting around the lunchroom. I actually, I worked for a vineyard when I first finished studying, and I was working in the laboratory, and it was in the picking season. And we had people from Italy, France, England, and parts of Australia. And I think we paid something silly like $3 or $4 a day or $5 a day I can’t remember. And for that you got a home cooked hot meal and we would sit around the table play Euchre and chat, not a phone to be seen. And that was connection. That was opening up. That was a This is what life is like for me and that that and now you know bloody phones and plus everything else. So of all the challenges of being real and vulnerable and open. We’ve got the shields up.

Minter Dial  14:52

So there’s two things there’s one is this notion of the image. I gotta I have to Instagram me and as I was chatting with another friend says, Well, you know what, there’s a T shirt that says, You know, I, I love the life of my Instagram profile. Oh, that’s not mine. And the second thing is this relationship with time. And you know, time is money. And we’ve sort of lost our ability to zero in on now. But why? What are we doing this for? And, and so what’s next and, you know, I got a next meeting. So this. So right now I kind of in this pandemic mode, there’s been enough of us needing to sit around and we’re not commuting to work anymore. Got about one and a half hours, extra two hours per day. And and enough of us are finally thinking a little bit more about why roll about but yet, we’re still in the you know, I think we’ve been programmed now with rush, rush, rush, efficiencies, productivity, and, and get on to the next thing as opposed to saying, hey, the chats, the Euchre, the moment, is actually what this is about.

Murray Guest  16:06

Yeah. And as you talk to me about that, I think about the leaders I’ve met in my career, or the leaders I’ve had the privilege to work with. And when you talk to them, they are fully present. They’re here in the now. And I’m listening. And I’m not listening to, to add a perspective, but I’m just listening to really connect and understand. And that makes a difference in someone’s life. I have a funny story. I was in Sydney two weeks ago, like I’ve ordered my coffee, I’m standing up waiting for my morning drug addiction. And someone else had ordered their coffee and he’s standing the requisite 1.5 meters away. And he sneezes. And he looks at me and says, ‘Oh, god, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.’ And I said, ‘Mate, no, it’s okay, bless you.’ And he looked at me with nearly tears in his eyes. And it for me, it was an automatic reaction of Bless you. But he’s like, Ah, thank you so much. And we had a smile and got our coffees went on our way. But I just I thought that that connection has became a even bigger need right now. And has been even harder at the same time.

Minter Dial  17:35

Well I didn’t sneeze. But I was behind a young woman in a store and I was looking in the row at the items right in front of her. And I leaned in because I didn’t have my glasses on. And she said ‘excuse me!’ So kind of the opposite. And I feel like there’s a lot of the opposite based on fear, which is so easy to run into. And this idea of hope and, and generosity, you know to strangers, God forbid, they’re going to kill me. It was this this idea that you mentioned just now about being present. I can’t put my finger on it. But there is something around how big leaders they have this thing called charm. And I think that the best description of that charm is making me feel like they’re only listening to me.

Murray Guest  18:40

Yeah, yeah.

Minter Dial  18:41

It’s like this idea that when when you have a conversation with somebody, and you spend all the time listening, right? And they say, ‘oh, you’re really interesting.’ Great.

Murray Guest  19:02

Well, I would even add, if I may add to this, it’s the leader that or the person that makes you feel like you’re the most important person right now. That there is a something else more important right now that I need to rush you I need to get to on my phone or bloody whatever else. It is right now. You’re the most important thing right now.

Minter Dial  19:23

Despite the fact that they are the big swing dick. They’re the big Buhler. They’re the Big Kahuna. And they’re talking to me, and they’re focused and they aren’t looking at their watch. They aren’t looking around and thinking about who’s looking at them, but actually, crap, that is real charm. And I had this when I ran Redken for L’Oreal, or part of the L’Oreal brand. There was a woman in my team called Anne Mincy. And I’m going to call her out. She’s probably going to call me and say you shouldn’t do that, but Anne was really the unofficial director of love. She made anybody who was in her sphere feel like their world all the time. Yeah, up and down the hierarchy in every country didn’t matter. She was there. Good lord. That was a real lesson. And I, and on top of that she was just brilliant at what she was doing. And and she just made the world a better place all the time. Good lord.

Murray Guest  20:39

Yeah, um, can I ask what did Anne do? So if you would have walked past Anne what is she doing, what is she saying, which demonstrated and created that love and that appreciation?

Minter Dial  20:55

So we had a few mania so well outside of the fact that I had a lot of complicity with Anne, and so let’s say, if I ran into Anne there was no way I wasn’t going to say hello. But on balance, we had a few little habits in our group. And one of them was the Redken hug. And we even had a Redken handshake. And, and both of them involved love. So, you know, possibly happens in Australia. But in America, when we hug, we tend to do it. It’s like a triangle, we get as little close to you as we can, you put the arms around, you tap tap tap, and you move away. As if that didn’t happen? 

Murray Guest  21:46

With the groins pushed out as far as possible.

Minter Dial  21:49

That’s the triangle. Well, the Redken hug beautifully and systematically implemented by Annie was a seven second full on full body contact hug.

Murray Guest  22:05

So can I ask was it always heart to heart? Because that’s something I’ve learned as well.

Minter Dial  22:10

Well, sure. And, and so more or less, I mean, there’s, there’s not real science, because it takes proper methods. But the real Sciences is supposed to be more like 20 seconds. But our story, and that’s also part of, I would say, reality being pragmatic. Is that seven seconds was long enough to be uncomfortable. And the idea behind the length of that study is that your heartbeats start to synchronize. And, and then, so then we’re in heart, we’re like, we’re in the loveland for that reason.

Murray Guest  22:46

Well, again, that links back to I think some of our earlier comments about pausing being present, caring about the person you’re with. And I invite everyone out there next time, they hug someone. Think about actually being really present and actually doing for seven seconds, not two seconds, and you will notice the difference.

Minter Dial  23:09

Oh, god, yes. There’s this uncomfortable element. And, and I had to update this because I talked about it my book, because me too.

Murray Guest  23:19

Yeah, of course.

Minter Dial  23:19

And and so you now need to be more in a permission mode. Can I give you a hug? Yes. Almost like, Can I give you an uncomfortable, possibly sexual harassment type of hug? Is that okay? Because, I mean, if I don’t do that, in certain legislative minds that can go poorly. But at the time, it was pre ‘Me too’. And of course, the good news, or the real important thing is the intention. And if the intention is malevolent, then it’s never good. But we would do man to man, woman to woman and woman to man, and it was okay.

Murray Guest  23:58

Yeah, and I think you’re right. So there’s, there’s intention, there’s culture, there’s permission, that all are very valid or not need to be considered. And, and again, it’s not male, female, or any other gender that you identify with. I know, for example, on the quiet, my friend Pete Smith, who I’ve had a great friendship with for many years, and when I see him, he stops, he looks at me. He says, ‘hug heart to heart’, and we hold each other for seven seconds must be, because it starts to feel a bit, Okay, we’ve had long enough, but I do feel that connection, and he does that every time.

Minter Dial  24:38

Well, the way I like to do it is two big breaths. Because the first one is really you caught short. And then the second one. But it started really, with a handshake. I wanted to mention it too, because, you know, sometimes the hug wasn’t quite practical. We had did have a lot of French bosses that weren’t part of the Redken culture. And, and yet, so I that’s when I did my let’s say the lightest version, because you know, you have to be pragmatic. And imagine you have a meeting with 100 people. It’s gonna take a long time to start the meeting. Yeah, if everybody has to hug everybody for seven seconds. All right. So, you know, we’re not that silly. So we would have a handshake though, the idea of the handshake was that the, the V in between the the thumb and the index finger should meet. You know, I would call it like a regular rugby handshake in and I hope that doesn’t dis-off other people. But that’s really what it is, is a thorough handshake. And the idea of the V’s were to meet. And the story in my mind was that that’s where the chakra of the heart is, it’s not actually true. But that’s sort of the story that I wanted was that a heart should meet through the V in our hands.

Murray Guest  25:57

What I’m thinking too, is that there again, it’s about intention. So if my intention is to just lightly touch fingers, or am I trying to really connect with each other with the palms? So is the good intention there? I’m wondering if you’ve seen this, and I have seen this, and to be honest, I’ve done it before, but you’ve reminded me to do it again more often. And that is at the start of a meeting, or a start of a session, let’s all just stop and take a few breaths together. So we don’t need to physically touch. But let’s just stop and breathe in and out two or three times to get us centered and present. And even that sort of alignment in our breathing has a connection as well.

Minter Dial  26:48

Of course, my mind is just whoosh, flying right back into rooms where that just wouldn’t be happening. You know, they were always, you know, that’s just a little bit too woowoo for me. And I think that’s a lot of people and and the challenge is creating that environment, that culture. And so if you’re the minion of the team, it’s going to be difficult for you to bring in that moment. If you’re the CEO, it’s another thing. But do you have that? Do you have the courage to do it? Do you have the hutzpah at some level to do it? And because you’re gonna have a few people in there still looking at you like, you know, you’re the new CEO, who is this guy?

Murray Guest  27:35

Yeah.

Minter Dial  27:36

That there’s always that. You know, and I remember when I came in, I was the youngest member of the C suite. And I so I knew that I had some sort of earn my place. So doing that kind of shit, that just doesn’t cut it. So you have to earn the space and create it. And so it’s nice to say, when you and I get it, we might then deliberately do that. And it’s sort of it’s not easy. It’s consensual. I mean, really, we’ve got it. Yeah, the challenge is creating it when it’s not there. And just doing it, and you’ve had a big fight, and then you just gonna say breathe, you know, fuck you. Yeah, yeah, we haven’t sorted out the hard stuff yet.

Murray Guest  28:18

Yeah, there’s that there’s an element there of, again, awareness of when’s the right time to do things and you learn from those mistakes of when, hey, this wasn’t the right time to do that. I’m thinking when you talk about leadership and leaders, you know, having that authority cue to do those things. But also how leaders need to be followers to create a space where people can try these things, or do something else, whatever it might be, suggest an idea of change and improvement, you know, we could go on, but how leaders are also followers, to go, okay, Mintor’s brought this to the meeting, let’s support that, let’s explore that. And that’s a critical role.

Minter Dial  29:07

It is. The word that comes to my mind, which is a wonderful word in French, which is to experiment. Because the idea of experimenting means I don’t actually know it before, I’m going to try something new. And in French, the word to experiment also means to experience. It means to experience something, you might think it means to experiment something, but that idea of experiment, doing it and not intellectually reading about meditation, but actually meditating. So this idea of doing shit that’s new, where you’re uncomfortable. I don’t know if that’s gonna work. I don’t believe in this stuff. And you’ve got to give you a chance to try it out. So that there’s a sense of, woo. I may look silly. Am I okay with that? I need to learn from other people to be working in the middle of it.

Murray Guest  30:18

And do we have a psychological safe culture? Where it’s okay to look silly.

Minter Dial  30:26

Yeah what if you got people gunning for you? There are many cultures where that still is the case. And, and Okay, that’s fine. Competition is fine. Then the other thing really to think about is how do you galvanize people to change with you? So you might change but then it doesn’t necessarily mean just because you’re the CEO everyone’s gonna do it with integrity? They might say, Yeah, yes sir. Boss, you’re the highest paid person in the room, everything you say is golden. But that’s not a proper place to be. And then thinking through, as, you know, you have naysayers in your team, how do you convince them to be participating? How do you make them convert them from being a naysayer to a truth sayer, someone who’s part of your gig. And these are easy things to say. But it’s really much harder to do. And I think you need to be somewhat smart about the approaches and, and layering in and figuring out, you have to understand that it’s all about relationships. And so you’re coming in, you’re leading, you’ve got three or four people who are not quite sure about you, how are you going to convince them? Well, this is this is part of the real challenge of leadership.

Murray Guest  31:49

And when you reflect on your time, back in, you know, leading the brand of Redken, and in that C suite, what really helped you bring people on that journey when you were trying to bring them along on something? What really worked for you?

Minter Dial  32:10

So there are two things, one worked really well and one didn’t work as well. The thing that worked really well was when I cottoned on to the mission of the purpose of Redken and it just light bulb, fucking oh my god, this is brilliant.

Murray Guest  32:28

Mm hmm.

Minter Dial  32:30

It wasn’t writing on a wall. It was the genuine article. I was like, Oh my god, this is, I’ve drunk Kool Aid, I’d dipped my tongue in acid, LSD. And this was the long trip.

Murray Guest  32:45

Why did that connect with you so much, what was it?

Minter Dial  32:47

Well, there’s a couple of reasons for that. And so first of all, it was a really legitimate bona fide interesting mission, which is to earn a better living, live a better life. And, and that, that seemed like, well, it’s pragmatic. We need to make money. That’s okay. So that feels very American, very genuine to that regard. And living a better life. Well shit we need to do that. And I thought about that United States, but pretty much everywhere in different ways, the challenge of living a better life. But the the context within which that that light bulb came to me was also I was running the brand through the September 11 2001 situation. And so I mean, there’s a whole, I don’t want to say too many swear words. But that was a fuck fest of a week for me. Because I am running a brand called Redken Fifth Avenue in New York City. My office, my corner office, overlooked the Twin Towers. I see the first explosion, I watched the second airplane fly down, around and in, four friends are killed. And I have my father visiting me, I hadn’t seen him in two years, the night before. And we had a fine time, but not a good time. So plane’s canceled, he has to come back. And on the morning of the 13th of September, amongst the things that went down that week, I had one telephone call, which really was a gut buster, where I had to call our retoucher, who was in New Jersey. And it was up to me to call him because all our photographs for 2002 for the campaigns had been in a server underneath tower number seven, which at 2:30 collapses, destroys all the servers and presumably other documents and other stories but all of our images, which are digital, had to go back to the backup server, and then retouch all the photographs, which meant make all the girls prettier than they look like and all that stuff. And two of my campaigns have the twin towers in the background. So my retoucher is living in a town where approximately 100 people are missing. He knows people are missing. And I asked him to retouch out of two of the campaigns, the World Trade Towers. So the vocabulary is, well, I just make them so I don’t recognize them. And he asked me, ‘So what floor do you want me to rub them out to?’

Murray Guest  35:48

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Minter Dial  35:54

So there I am thinking, ah, now is this is this what selling shampoos is about?

Murray Guest  35:59

Yeah.

Minter Dial  36:02

And I wasn’t, of course, the only person to have these type of feelings. And many people around the world had an extraordinary experience. There were other things going on for me in that week. But um, that was a pretty big lightbulb moment. So when I come back to the mission of living a better life, earning a better living, I want hairdressers to earn a better living, why do I want them to earn a better living, because it’s really tough being entrepreneur, being a creative, running books, making everybody else happy. Because that’s what they do. That’s their job, to make us look good and feel happy. Especially, you know, let’s say my mother in law, that kind of profile. And so if they can stay in business, that’s cool. If they can feel confident, and they can live a better life, then they’re going to make other people feel a better life. And then there was actually then the mission became, while we actually all need that, as people within the company. And anyway, that’s that was when my light bulb went on, I said, well, that’s far more important than selling one more bloody bottle of shampoo. This is what I got to latch on to.

Murray Guest  37:06

I think when you work for a company, and you connect with the values, purpose statement, and it goes beyond your professional life. Because that statement you can apply to anywhere in your life. Earn a better living live a better life, I can see how that can create conversation, reflection and drive in all areas of your life. The second one, when I think about that, and I think about that reflection from you, and the heaviness of that. I can sense if I’m sensing correctly, that there’s some reflection of I could have done that differently and better in that moment.

Minter Dial  37:49

Oh, my goodness, I actually I walked into it. Right. I stumbled into that thought. And it just, you know, I was trying to be pragmatic. I had to get an airplane on the 15th of September, which was a CEO who called me up and said, You need to come to Paris. I have to come to Paris. Now, sir, yeah, now, yeah, that’s it. I’ve got a plane. I’ve hired a private Learjet, or whatever it was, for you. You need to take it and you’re going to come over. So I say, Oh, my gosh, all right. And then that means things are happening, I’ve got to get back on the tracks and stop whinging around, I’ve got I got to move in. So I was sort of got my got back on the tracks and tried to figure out how to make things happen. And, and then you had to see me on the airplane, instead of, so we usually were 14 people delivering a two hour 15, two hour 30 minutes speech. That was to happen on the 18th of September. And so I had no one in my team coming. Just me. Usually, I would do with the like the bookender. And you know, and thank the team and all that, no no this was just me doing the whole thing. So I had to learn the whole spiel. And the way L’Oreal does things, you have to learn everything backwards.

Murray Guest  39:10

Yeah.

Minter Dial  39:12

So I’m trying to learn all this on the airplane. My team had briefed me and you know, talk about everything that they had planned, because they were planning that up until the 11th. And then to come in and tell rah rah rah, this is how we’re going to do the next three years business for my company. This was a serious three days for me.

Murray Guest  39:34

Yeah, yeah. How did it go?

Minter Dial  39:42

Well I remember being extemporaneous for the first five minutes. I was the only yank in the room, as yank as I can be. I certainly was the only person who had seen the whole thing happen with my eyes. And you have to understand that my wife was in hospital and my friend’s wives, I’m in touch with them. This is tough. And I’ve got to be talking about P&L, budgets, products and how this shampoo has a better silicon than the last year and this is the beautiful girl that has been retouched. I didn’t want to tell them about the tower seven. And so I’ve given the story. But so the extemporaneous part sort of fell out of me. And then I did the rest. And I, I think I expressed some genuine emotion. But it was still, I was crawling out of my cage.

Murray Guest  40:55

Yeah, yeah.

Minter Dial  40:56

Because I had been practicing this cage routine for 10 years. And that’s how I got to I got to because I was good at in the cage. And I moved into it and slowly sort of grew into like it, this whole thing is not a light switch that actually turned on overnight is what I could dimmer. Because it took me many years to really build into it. And then I got, then I got promoted to other jobs. And then then you had to find another way to connect into it. Because now I’m no longer running Redken, I’m doing other stuff in another country. And there’s a whole nother gig. And so adapting and living through new journey. I don’t know, how did it go? I learned so much about it. And I think how much and like you mentioned, plenty of fuck ups within there.

Murray Guest  41:55

I reflect back on 9/11. And how that’s one of those moments, which I felt like whilst it was perceived differently around the world, there was still very much a connection that happened around the world. I remember, I was, at the time doing some work late at night, and on the TV screen saw the second plane. And I remember, you know, freaking out what is happening. I was at the time working for Mars Incorporated, which is a global FMCG company. And now I think about with COVID. It’s another thing which is bringing people together collectively across the globe. And I think about how it links to some of our conversation today about connection and empathy, and how these things, as bad as they are, we’ve got to, you know, step through to the next stage of how do we connect, how do we be more present? How do we be more empathetic for each other, which I think hopefully leads us to to talk a bit about your new book, which is, You Lead, which is a great title.

Minter Dial  43:08

Thank you. All I can say is that 9/11 didn’t turn out well. So I’m hoping that we will learn some of these things. And I have a feeling that there’s some fishes in the way we come out of this in the form of a unilateralism and a lack of ability to have genuine disagreements in a civil manner. And so I I’m, that’s my my little parade, if you will, I’m hoping in little ways to continue to allow for us to disagree, including in the media, by the way.

Murray Guest  43:41

Yeah.

Minter Dial  43:42

That we should allow for us to have conversations that entertain that there’s not only one way to look at this, just like there isn’t just one way to look at 9/11.

Murray Guest  43:55

Yeah and I think this is the, I’m certainly not the first person to say this, the challenge of the busyness of today that we need to slow down and go deep in the conversation and not have sound bytes of information.

Minter Dial  44:13

100%. So this is it, you got to be capable of bringing your entire self into those moments. Feel when your heartbeat starts racing, because I’m getting upset or I’m getting what’s going on here. Which is maybe right maybe wrong, but it is what it is, but feel what you’re feeling. And and then that’s going to help you in the conversation we’re having. Because you don’t need to be jumping all over somebody, it’s really only just a manifestation of how you are having a problem.

Murray Guest  44:52

Yeah. And so tapping into those sensations, tapping into what’s going on and let’s say we’re doing that. What’s next?

Minter Dial  45:04

Well you need to be pragmatic, we need to do so. So I like the idea of ‘being’ first. So we’re being present, we’re being who we are. Let me sell to get the business going. I, of course, if we were to just wind back a second and sort of do matter, you know, like, there’s that extraordinary, the calendar of the world. And eight of the universe is a calendar where December 31. And it’s like, a couple of minutes before midnight. Yeah, yeah. So that kind of thing. So let’s go a little bit matter about this. But where it would, I think, makes the ‘how’ we do things later work is if we’ve done the hard work upfront. So we’ve got a mission, we have a purpose, we’ve decided that as a team, and this is how we’re going to express it. And this, these are the things we’re going to do towards that mission, doesn’t mean 100% of everything we’re doing is doing it. But we have a general good idea of how we’re going to solve this mission and be the purpose we’re talking about. Then the second area that needs to happen is within culture, and values and behaviors. So not only does that make the word that we talk about integrity, family, or whatever word we have, be more specific to ours, because there really only are 75 or so different values. So you know that that’s slim pickings. So the only way that becomes real is when you make it yours, you identify that. And then you need to link those values, three, ideally, no more, to the purpose. And, and if they gel, then you think you’ve got something that’s you now know where you’re going, who you are, and why that’s important to you. Then, even still not doing the action plan, what we’re going to do in this matter calendar story I’m telling you about, you need to understand, are you prepared to pay the price to get to be this person, because it’s going to mean not doing other things. And in a concrete example of this was brilliant. When we were at Redken with a great consultant called Howard Gutman. And Pat, who is my sort of co-conspirator, we came up with the idea of how we’re going to roll and make success for us within L’Oreal group within the industry. And we said, well, we really have ambition to make what we do better. Why? Because we’re doing shit that’s important. Where we’re allowing hairdressers to earn a better living and live a better life. So that’s, that’s pretty fucking cool. All right, what do we need to do that? Well, we need to go into a space, which means we may not be comfortable. Well, that means letting go of certain investments, certain product categories that we typically thought were like our cash cow, our regulars, where we could count on them, where we anniversary every year, those same type of motions. So we need to do things differently. Oh fuck well, what happens if it doesn’t work? Are we prepared to do what it takes to get to that? And the way we did it, and Howard heard our call, he said, what we’re gonna do, we have four product categories. And we’re going to invest 90% of our marketing on one.

Murray Guest  48:36

So we’re all in, we’re all in.

Minter Dial  48:41

All in. You know, but, you know, the categories, we had two of them that weigh 30% each, one was a little less and one is a little bit more afterwards. So 90%! We can’t do that up in arms!

Murray Guest  48:58

This doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense. When we run the numbers compared to numbers before. This doesn’t make sense. We got to split our investment across all four categories.

Minter Dial  49:06

Let’s be safer. Yeah. This was a very specific method of are we sure we’re prepared to pay the price. And now let’s talk about our plan. So to your point, you know, now we sort of, we’ve come to an agreement, rather than I mean, if you’ve done that work, then we can go the action plan. And it makes so much easier sense what we should be doing, how we’re going to do it because we’ve agreed to all this other stuff that’s harder.

Murray Guest  49:38

Yeah. And I think unfortunately, what happens invariably too often, is let’s talk about what we’re trying to achieve in our plan. And now how are we going to work together to do that?

Minter Dial  49:51

Right? Backwards.

Murray Guest  49:54

It’s backwards, versus who do we want to be? And are we aligned in our values, our approach and what are we not going to do? I love that, like, what can we let go of, that’s holding us back. Okay, let’s get on the same agreement for that. And I’m thinking about your rugby days. Let’s get our shit sorted in the change rooms in the week before on our training, before we take to the field.

Minter Dial  50:22

I recall, I remember dropping a catch, I was playing winger and, and had been up and under and I dropped the catch. And I remember, oh my god, I was mortified, and my captain came over, he says, I’m sure you won’t drop it again. I was like, okay, that’s cool. You’re allowed to make a mistake. That’s cool. And I’m still in touch with him. I had super highest respect for him. Simon was his name, he lives in Belgium. He was faster, better than I was. But he had the generosity to allow me off the hook.

Murray Guest  51:04

Yeah. And again, there’s a piece here again, around leadership, isn’t it? Around when someone fails, when someone stuffs up, when they make a mistake, how do you really support them? Make it okay, but, and here’s the thing, maintain their self esteem to move forward. Because I think if there’s too much of it, where it’s like, Okay, you’ve made that mistake, I’m going to hammer you for that. And therefore the self esteem is, you know, explicitly much lower than what it was. So how motivated is the person going to be to move forward?

Minter Dial  51:42

Well, you asked me before, how did it work? Or how do they get through and corral people? I mentioned the good one. But there’s a less good one. Where I was attempting to get people on board because I really drew on my experience. And, and so I was in France on the executive committee, surrounded by older only French, I mean, I have a French passport. So theoretically, I’m also French, but I certainly didn’t feel it. And I certainly didn’t go to the schools that they’d gone to. And, and anyway, I was a young whippersnapper who just came in from North America. And and something I learned in my first opportunity with L’Oreal in Paris was go out in the field, talk and listen, at their level, whomever you’re speaking with, don’t go in like pretentiously thinking, it all needs to be manicured for me. That’s not listening. That’s not right. And so what I, what I wanted to bring was my reality of being on the field, with distributors, with hairdressers, with educators because we had a big group of educators and bring that in. And that was my sort of my grounding. And, and, frankly, ends up being the thing I think was most important, which is our ability to listen in to customers, to the people who are at the coal mine, doing the stuff, not us highfalutin people sitting behind on leather chairs, drinking chic cappuccinos. We lose touch with what’s going on in our reality. So that was what I tried to do, but it failed. And, and I wasn’t able to garner them, I mean, and the the signature failure was digital. So they gave me eight different functions. I was in charge of eight different functions and basically, it was all the shit that they didn’t want to deal with. Everybody else had all the noble really useful, good things in the L’Oreal world and I had all this other shit like, you know, health and safety, education, VIP asshole customers, you know, because they keep on asking me and whinging about everything. And, and the thing called Digital, you know, stupid, you know, anecdotal thing called facebookie.com something like that. And, and you something Uber. And it has, like, you know, that’s, that’s really important. I kept on trying to explain that it would be useful, because I came from the United States and Canada, which at the time was actually the most penetrated country of Facebook in the world. And I was like, this is it. This is this is happening. Yeah, yeah, it’s not important enough. Now I read about it. And then told them you got to do this stuff. And when I left, L’Oreal had managed to peak at 0.9% of its marketing budget, in digital in 2009. And so the 0.9 compared to 25% for the real people, and the 0.9 broke down to being one third on servers, one third on updating websites for new products, and one third for innovation. So I knew I had not succeeded.

Murray Guest  55:20

Yeah, I can I can see that. And I no doubt, know that it’s a very different situation. You know, 11 years later.

Minter Dial  55:29

Oh, that’s true. But at the time, I was trying to push, push, push and, and get with the program and show why. But it was you know, is barking up the wrong tree really, as far as they’re concerned.

Murray Guest  55:42

Yeah, well, I think there’s the piece you mentioned earlier about story and telling stories and engaging the emotions. And with something so new, it is hard. But it’s, it’s what’s going to get people on the journey, for them to connect with the heart. And in with the mind, we need to with some data, but with that heart around, okay, I can feel this is where it’s going to go. Because there’s a real story here, it’s going to help us achieve what we’re trying to achieve.

Minter Dial  56:13

And you know, where I failed, because my boss said ‘Well, you’ve been blogging’ – I’ve been blogging, I started blogging in around 2005-2006. So there I am and he says, ‘I want to do a blog too.’ I said well that’s great, why do you want to do a blog? Because it’s what you’re supposed to do. I’m like, let’s look at that again. So we sort of strategize. And I remember this conversation. So I was accompanied by a great, great guy called Eric. And we got to a point where we’re going to explain we’re going to there’s a purpose to the blogging, and we’re going to think about the audience. And what are we going to say? Well, we’re gonna say what I do. What do you mean? What do you mean, you’re gonna say what we do? Well, I’m going to blog about my journey is where I’m going? Well, I think that’s really not really very interesting. It’d be interesting to maybe talk about your thoughts and feelings, your experiences as you go around. More than just matter of factly explaining what I do. ‘Well, that is too personal.’ And I imagine we spent something like I would say, 250,000 euros on his site, which you could have done for zero. Yeah, at the time on blogger.com, which is what I was paying. And I had more traffic on my little stupid little blog, which I wasn’t allowed to talk about, or even have. I had more traffic than he did on his quarter of a million euro baby. Anyway, the point was, I failed to get him into this path. And maybe who was it for me, I was maybe 15 years, 20 years, his junior, to explain this. But I did not manage to enrol him into the story.

Murray Guest  58:04

And at the same time, you were getting the visits, the hits, the rates on your website, through the stories you were telling in your blogs,

Minter Dial  58:14

Of course. I mean, by the way, I couldn’t talk about the fact that I was working at L’Oreal. And I so I would talk about things like rugger, and things that I was genuinely passionate about, but didn’t touch on anything professional. I wasn’t allowed to do that.

Murray Guest  58:28

Okay. Well, and and to go back full circle on today’s wonderful conversation, the power, the power, the importance, the realness of actually talking about this stuff, being vulnerable, opening up and create space for connection. There’s so much, you’re coming back on my podcast, by the way, I’ve already decided. Whether you like it or not, you have to come back. There’s more we need to talk about. Give us an understanding about You Lead, your new book that comes out next year. And what’s your hope for this book.

Minter Dial  59:05

So the title is You Lead: how being yourself makes you a better leader. And my thesis is there two things, which I would say are important. One is a little bit drier, but necessary, and the other is maybe sexier, but messy. So I’ll start with the dry, which is that as much as you might want to be you you still need to recognize the freedoms that you can have. Because you might be working for a publicly traded company. And there are certain governance issues that won’t allow you to do everything you might wish to do. So you need to understand how you’re operating. Because that’s the room within which you have to move. It doesn’t mean you have to be false or less you per se but it it does need to be understood. Because you just can’t go in there and be a whippersnapper and cowboy because that’s what I want to do.

Murray Guest  1:00:04

Yeah. And that there’s a bit that I that you may get to but I know that this is something which I loved when you said this, this is about how to be personal in a professional space. And I just I think it’s even more important with all the zoom, the remote working, the working from home, people showing up with their laundry drying in the background, whatever it might be, you still need to be professional.

Minter Dial  1:00:28

100%, which is the second point. So I often talk about laundry, because the idea is you can go to work in a tie with a perfectly starched shirt. That’s been well ironed. That’s Pro, right. That’s, you’re looking sharp, you’re looking good. You got a big meeting. We read books by covers. So let’s be pragmatic. Yet do I think that of course, we’re no longer wearing ties. There’s space to wear the tie dye which shows that I happen to be a fan of the Grateful Dead. So I followed them. I don’t know if you know who they are Murray, but I followed them. For 10 years of my life. I shake my bones, smoked some funny looking cigarettes, and enjoyed 200 of these concerts. So the point is, I don’t feel like I’m just dissonant. I can wear a tie and a tie dye. But I’m not going to show you my dirty underwear. So the concept is you have laundry. You have the starched shirt, you have the tie dye that shows who I am. But I’m not going to show you any further. There are some things which just don’t go. So because you if I don’t tell you about the tie dye, I’m not telling you about me.

Murray Guest  1:02:00

Yeah.

Minter Dial  1:02:02

So you need to be able to get into the kimono, get off that starch shirt thing, which, you know, I’m buttoned down. I’m smart. I’m good. Yeah, yeah. Okay, but at a certain level a, you’re not authentic. And two, you will burn out.

Murray Guest  1:02:19

Yeah. And, and three, who are you? Really?

Minter Dial  1:02:24

I suppose that’s the biggest work of all of us. And, and, and it’s not like a destination. It’s it’s constant work. And as you get older you you do change, your hormones change, your relationships change and, and shit happens. And so it’s not like I’m guaranteed to know who I am tomorrow. I still feel like I’m on a journey. And so you’re right, that’s part of so I didn’t start with the tie dye when I was at L’Oreal. It was me, I was following the dead by then. But I wasn’t comfortable enough to bring it into the workspace, you know, telling people that I’ve taken LSD.

Murray Guest  1:03:02

Yeah.

Minter Dial  1:03:03

That was complicated. But I’m all in now. I’m not going to take LSD at work. Because that doesn’t seem like it’s a good idea just yet. Although, I think there is space for micro dosing, and the more. But I’m going to be able to talk about it because it is me, I don’t mind sweating. I don’t mind looking like a fool. You know, there’s like expression, dance like you’re not being looked at. Oh, boy. I do not look good when I do that. But I love it. And I’ve enjoyed that. And that’s what’s brought a smile to my face.

Murray Guest  1:03:40

Yeah. So be you. And be you understanding about where you are and who you’re connecting with. So be authentically you to a degree. So I think Brene Brown talks about, you know, with through vulnerability, and I just actually listened to her conversation with Barack Obama yesterday. It’s just fantastic. But she talks about that vulnerability. That doesn’t mean you know, live streaming your waxing and when you’re at the beautician, like there’s a level of vulnerability, And when someone shows that vulnerability and maybe they overstep, as a leader, how do you create that space to bring them back in and and support them and help them?

Minter Dial  1:04:31

Well, like contacts are so important. It all depends on the relationship you have that person already and so on so forth. I think there are things not to do. And and one of them is shaming people. That’s so easy to do. The little insight maybe is to explain how we used to have a 24 hour rule. So in our, in our values we were accountable to one another. And as an expression of that, we say, Well, if I don’t agree with you, Murray, here’s what’s going to happen. You said something in that meeting yesterday morning, I disagree with you. But I’m not going to disagree with you in the meeting. But within 24 hours, I’m going to have a call with you. And if I haven’t made the effort to call you or speak to you in person, 24 hours goes, the idea goes, the issues no longer.

Murray Guest  1:05:34

I love that. I love that.

Minter Dial  1:05:37

So let’s say, you and I had a confrontation in the meeting. Or, and for the sake of argument, you were pointing to me, I don’t need to scold you or shame you there. But I do need to within 24 hours get to you say hey, Murray, listen. You know, the thing you said yesterday in the meeting, or this morning, whatever? Not good. This is why, this is how…the how counts. I’m not sure, I saw you are being fidgety. Maybe there’s something else going on. You know, give give room for that kind of an experience, especially in these days. But I think every day, yeah. Cuz we can have shitty days bad sleep, an argument with the spouse, or whatever. And, yeah, that shit happens. And that has an impact on who we are. And we need to allow for that. Because, you know, want to be professional all the time. Yeah, sure. But, you know, sometimes personal stuff has a way of impacting you, whether it’s your hormones, or your relationships, you know, a sad person in your family, you know, like that, for sure gets you down. And the bravado stuff can last for a while. But afterwards, it’ll break down in the form of burnout.

Murray Guest  1:06:52

Yeah, so yeah. And, again, when you talk us through a process of how you create that culture, and those foundations for really working as an inclusive team, there’s a simple process that a team can just agree to, hey, let’s all agree that if we do have a disagreement or something that aren’t quite like that, something that we don’t align with, that we commit to closing that loop within 24 hours.

Minter Dial  1:07:22

And that is, the challenge, as I can recall it, is either you dictate it, or you co-opt it. So you allow for people to participate in the creation of your culture, yeah. Because at some level, you know, I was thrown in, I’ve flown in from Paris, I become this, you know, the big boss. And I could go in with, you know, well, this is how it’s going to be, because this is how I’ve done things, this is how I do things. Or you are flexible enough to figure out how you’re going to allow for other people to tell you how to be or at least how you to be within the context of this group. And so creating that type of culture. Well, it’s sensitive, because I mean, it depends on the situation, right? But I’m being flown in, I’m, I, I was looked at like a spy. Yeah, coming in from Paris, even though I have a Yankee passport. And I thought that I was bonafide. Uh uh, I had to earn my stripes. So when you’re in there trying to create that culture, what we tried to do was to establish together, what we thought would be the ways to express that. So we did little workshops. This is what we think this is where we should roll. And also, there’s another interesting point is understanding how you want to be with your customers. Because a lot of people say we need to be customer centric. But a lot of people make a mistake of not aligning the way they are internally with the way they want to be with the customer. So they say well, alright, it’s really important that we get back to all our customers within 24 hours, no matter what. Okay, everyone agree? Oh, of course. You know, that’s how we want to be. That’s a competitive advantage. All right. So just help me with a thing. The email I sent to you last week that you didn’t reply to. We’re asking for some help with understanding the margin agreement we had with that customer.

Murray Guest  1:09:34

Hmm. So yeah. Are we walking the talk authentically, internally, as well? Because Yeah, that then that opens up a really good conversation.

Minter Dial  1:09:51

In fact, it was well, I mean, for having lived this shit, you know, Murray, was it wasn’t just about having a 24 hour rule within our communications. Alright, so this is now with regard to being customer centric. Because if you want to get back to a customer within 24 hours, that actually means, depending on the business you’re in, you kind of have to have a six hour rule. Because I’m going to send you that message about the margin for the customer. And I’m gonna write, let’s say yes. And it’s gonna take some time that I get back within 24 hours.

Murray Guest  1:10:29

Yeah.

Minter Dial  1:10:31

So it’s not just walk the talk, it’s actually aligning your processes to what you’re trying to achieve externally. And that’s where things like, empathy become really interesting. Because we say want to be empathic with our customers, because we’re going to be customer centric, want to be in their shoes. Yeah, but are you in your salespeople shoes? Are you familiar with what their shits like? Because just ordering them to do it to make be empathic you shit. I’m gonna whip your ass until you’re empathic with the customer.

Murray Guest  1:11:08

And I’m just, I’m gonna force you to have fun, I’m gonna force you to be empathetic. Yes, and, yeah, that’s going to definitely not work, but unfortunately, does exist in some areas. At the moment, I think in some old style leadership approaches.

Minter Dial  1:11:27

Well, and frankly, the truth is, I’ve seen old people do well, and young people live that kind of life too. Cause these younger people, and I look at people who are, are hamstrung and stressed. And it’s very easy to fall back onto these Pavlovian style fears. And and whip it in because it’s quicker to say what I do. Working, listening to what you have to, fucking hell don’t have enough time for that.

Murray Guest  1:11:56

But that listening is vulnerability. Because I don’t have all the answers. I’m not going to tell you what to do. And I want to find out from you how you think we should do it? How are we going to make this work?

Minter Dial  1:12:08

And it takes just getting off a little bit the high horse. I don’t know it all. How can you help me? You small minion. Back to the charm we were mentioning at the very beginning of our chat, if you can have that ability, and actually the genuineness to want to listen and learn from the others? Oh, my gosh.

Murray Guest  1:12:32

Can I just say this has been fantastic. And it’s been a great, inspiring conversation. If I go back to the very start of the conversation, I think I was feeling a bit tired, you were a little as well, I actually have more energy now. Which is what inspired energy is all about. So thank you, thank you so much for your openness, vulnerability, storytelling, and sharing of knowledge and experience. I really, really appreciate it.

Minter Dial  1:13:02

Lots of scar tissues in there. Thank you for allowing me to share Murray.

Murray Guest  1:13:05

Oh no, they’re beautiful scars. There’s a lot of beauty in sharing those. I’ll make sure there’s a link to your new book, and your website in our show notes. Because that book will be out early next year. And based on this conversation, and what I’ve been reading about what you do, it’s going to be fantastic, and just what’s needed right now as well. To wrap this up, please let us know what is your definition of inspired energy.

Minter Dial  1:13:38

Inspired energy is knowing why I exist. And I sculpted this, took me a while, but my whole thing is about elevating elegantly the debate and connecting dots, people and ideas. And if I can do a bit of that every day, that is how I get inspired energy.

Murray Guest  1:14:02

I’m gonna borrow that one. I’m gonna quote you on that one. I love that a lot. Thank you so much Minter. That is a beautiful articulation of inspired energy. Wishing you a wonderful relaxing, resetting, connecting Christmas and all the best for 2021. But I’ll be chatting to you again next year. I certainly hope so.

Minter Dial  1:14:27

With pleasure, Murray.

Murray Guest  1:14:28

Thank you.

Episode 80 – Ben Bateman | Building a Strengths-based culture at Little Miracles

In this episode I chat with Ben Bateman, head of people and culture for Little Miracles Childcare, father, husband and self proclaimed adrenalin chaser. 

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Ben, welcome to the podcast. It is so good to see you and to be chatting with you. I still reflect on our time four years ago, when you were starting at little miracles, the strengths journey, and I’m so excited to explore what’s been happening and how you’ve been bringing strengths into everything you do. But before we get into all that, how’s life?

Ben Bateman  00:22

Yeah, really good man. In a season where? Yeah, my family’s doing really well. I’m in a good space in myself as well. And yeah, really enjoying life and the work that I’m doing last a roller coaster sets and bumps but by and large might really, really well thank you.

Murray Guest  00:40

Well, good. I am missing some of your travel the sheet because I know you were a bit. You enjoy the travel? Oh, that’s

Ben Bateman  00:47

a very much a sore spot. Yes. I was meant to be going to Japan snowboarding in January. So that’s that’s very much a sore spot. And yeah, I get the guy who stays with work in budget at least twice a year normally say that’s the thing. I’m missing most. I love adventure. So yeah, he got me me.

Murray Guest  01:05

Yeah, I’m, I was meant to be in America this year at the strength summit in Omaha. And obviously that went online. We had plans for a family trip to Europe for a white Christmas. Oh, wow. So that okay, that didn’t happen. But lots of travel plans locally. And I’m just I’m loving seeing the investment in regional. Australia. Yeah. Which is driving all of that, you know, let’s get back and explore our own country as well. So yeah, looking forward to some of that.

Ben Bateman  01:36

Definitely. I’m actually in a user advice in January, man, I’m gonna get a thredbo and do some mountain biking instead this year? Oh, yeah. So I’ve never been June, the summer. So it’s gonna be cool together. There’s no reason to be in nature and explored in a different way. Yeah, I did. A man walking down.

Murray Guest  01:54

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you know it too. And I did thredbo Ah, must have been three, four years ago, and is fantastic. Yeah, and such a great vibe. And, and I’m not as young as you, I don’t bounce as good as you. So I better see what some of the people can do down there. It’s just, you know, it’s like when you get snowboarding do so great. You get some spikes. And there’s some really good trials down there, of course. So

Ben Bateman  02:19

yeah, I’m really gonna take it easy. I am 45.

02:23

So I definitely

Ben Bateman  02:24

don’t be on either. And I’ve got into mountain biking through some of my much younger mates in their 20s. And so, you know, but I take every line very differently to what they do, mate. So we had the conversation with him, should I go to thredbo? Because I’m not, I’m, I’m going by myself too. So it’s very hard at home if I get injured. So yeah, take it easy.

Murray Guest  02:44

So you got to do there’s a couple of loop trails that are quite longer and flowing. And there’s a trail which goes from thredbo out to Lake crackenback, which flows along the river. Okay, and that’s so you got to do that one. That one’s really good. That’s just nice and flowing. Next is crystal Creek clear screen streams. It’s a fantastic how we could talk about mountain biking for the next day, or

Ben Bateman  03:08

should we could I just write that down? Because that sounds good, man,

Murray Guest  03:12

we’re gonna head out to what was the scattering but

Ben Bateman  03:15

I do ironbark with my mate. So yeah, we should do that sometime.

Murray Guest  03:18

Yeah. So mate, just to get to set the scene a little. Tell me what strengths means for you personally, and a strengths based approach.

Ben Bateman  03:28

Wow. So strength for me personally has unlocked my personal development potential. It helped me to have a language to understand myself. Like strengths talks about name, climate and payment, we’ve changed a little bit in lm. And this is me personally to strengths discovery, awareness and development. And we use a lot of other tools before from the disc assessment to Myers Briggs, but that when strengths goes to a whole nother level, for me is the development piece. Those other tools give you good discovery and awareness, but they don’t give you a great development, in my opinion. I’m sure other people get more out of them. But for me personally and professionally at the development side of what strengths has done for us, and then strengths has given me language around my talents as well that I’ve never had before. And that’s been fantastic. 45 I’m trying to be a much healthier whole human being, and actually leaning to my strengths, often to think about my constructive and destructive side of my talents. And give me a framework to think about that. And to really work on my development professionally as a parent, in the way I interact with my wife. And I’m much more gracious with myself to where I lack talent down the bottom in that bottom 10 or 12 and I feel Much more confident. Yeah, to say, look, I just like telling those areas and that that’s okay. I just need to find a partner or a tool to help me become proficient in that area. But yeah, yeah, I make sense.

Murray Guest  05:15

It makes perfect sense to me. You and I are so aligned in what strengths is meant for you. And it’s meant for me, and how it helps me show up more my true self. Yeah. And yeah, in those conversations with everybody in my life, from my children, to my wife, to my family, my biggest family, my friends, my clients, everybody and i, you said something about being a bit more gracious to self. And I’ve found it for myself and for clients to work with about strengths help us be a bit more kind to ourselves around 100 100%. Yeah, beating ourselves up about something that we’re not good at, or that we have a blind spot in. But now understand why and be kind to myself to, you know, lift me out of those dark moments.

Ben Bateman  06:03

Yeah. Yeah, we’re kindred spirits, they might, when you spoke about the true self to like, I’ve done some development work in that area of my wife, and I feel like Strengths lines up really well. We try and understand my true self and be my true self. But that kindness can pace we would even talk in our company about being compassionate, and having self compassion. That’s definitely that kindness is talking about. And I’m young, growing that area, and I’m being able to empower people to be more self compassionate as well, which is so cool. We’re so hard on ourselves. Yeah. And the destructive ways.

Murray Guest  06:41

And 2020 I think you and I were talking before we started our chat today about what you know, the years been, like, for so many people so hard in so many ways. And you know, strengths is a great way for us to understand how we’re showing up, isn’t it? Yeah,

Ben Bateman  06:55

definitely. It’s been good for me to reflect on. Where I am showing up in destructive ways that we talk about strengths a lot. The overextension of our strength is a weakness. And yeah, definitely, that’s where our most destructive often is, in my own extensions of my strengths. And just to know, that have that self awareness has helped me to not go as far down that destructive path, I still take destructive paths, I just tend to not go as fine. Yeah. And then yeah, and strength has been a significant tool in empowering me in that space. And I’m very grateful for.

Murray Guest  07:35

Yeah, I would build on that, too. And add what I’ve had that realization more and more is how it’s enabled me to explain why, or how I’m doing something with other people. Okay. And I was just thinking just recently about my communication and how, with my communication, I’m keen to talk about something and get it out. But the ideas not fully formed. The order, the words aren’t even in the right order, but I want to just talk about it. So it gives me a way to say, Hey, this is something want to talk about, but I haven’t really thought through, and this is where I’m going. And that I think is me permission and confidence to to have that conversation.

Ben Bateman  08:15

Yeah, I love what you just did there, you are aware, self aware of where communication is destructive for you. But you can actually lead with that now. And I do that with my teams a lot. I talk to them fairly quickly, when I want to partner with someone about where I’m not very talented. So that we can actually explore that upfront. This is where I can really frustrate people. And I will go there fairly quickly with teammates, based on their strengths, if they’ve got a lot of executing which I have none, my top 10 that’s going to be an area of frustration more for them than it is for me. So I need to be aware of that, trying to work on with him on that. But part of the way I do that is to help them to know that they can talk to me about that anytime. And I want them to point that out when that’s frustrating. And it will be at some point. Yeah, it’s been really helpful. For from my teams with me.

Murray Guest  09:09

It’s again, it’s a building trust, isn’t it through that permission of Hey, I want you to raise this with me if I’m being a bit destructive.

Ben Bateman  09:17

Yes,

Murray Guest  09:20

Can I ask if there was one strength that you’ve just really embraced? Why not to that, you know, you just, you know, really sees you and as like a grounding strength. What’s one of those ones in your, you know, top five or 10 that you just?

Ben Bateman  09:39

Yeah, ideation is one number one. So what I’m most passionate about the one that gives me the greatest joy, but it wasn’t really until strength. So what’s up four years ago that I really wish I would have said I was a dreamer, as a kid, and even up until that stage and I have a vivid imagination. I didn’t realize how construction It was and how unique it was. That’s partly what I love that strengths is you understand your own uniqueness. Yeah. Helps me not expect other people to be able to dream or say things the way I can. But to you my ideation, something I come back to frequently when I want to feel more alive, I can use really constructive ways. And then also, I can see when my wife would say, I’m so heavenly minded, I’m no earthly good, because I’m busy having cool thoughts and dreams, and I’m ignoring things around the house or my kids or now. I understand that now. And so she’s able to gently remind me, hey, you’ve got some things to do. Besides, I can come back to that I’m in healthy ways now. But, so I’m leaning into it more and more, I’m appreciating it more and more. And I give myself time and permission to use ideation more. But are limited, that might sound weird, or give myself more time but are limited. So I, I dealt with that mean to, you know, I can overdo it, when I should be doing other things. Now, I’m trying to put it into constructive spaces. So I’ll give myself half an hour here on a set on certain days to really lean into my ideation rather than just letting it run in the background all the time.

Murray Guest  11:31

I love what you when you talk about your relationship with Nell. And just reminds me of the relationship I have with Tammy, and how strengths has enabled us to call each other out on behaviors in a positive way. And yeah, and not as positive, let’s just say in a helpful or constructive a loving way, which some people I know do some really great work with strengths and relationships. And that’s one area I really focus on. But I can talk from a personal perspective and like you can about how it just helps us support each other. And God and coach even when their strengths are showing up in in the dark and the light.

Ben Bateman  12:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely helped me to not just understand myself, but be much more gracious with know as well when she is. So achievers one of her top five. It’s really low for me. So one of the things we did, I’ve done here with staff, and with some of our parent community is to get to people’s all 34 linemen up beside each other. And we draw lines and we look for lines where, where one person has a stroke client and one person has a strength flow, and see that as a place for friction. Yep. And we look for what strengths do you have in common? And there’s real places of alignment and collaboration. So it’s been really helpful for me to know where I have. Yeah, we have. So if I pick achiever when nails running hard to achieve, and the last thing I feel like doing is actually giving her space, and also giving my space, myself space. So encouraging, empowering her acknowledging that that’s what she’s needing in that moment. But also being able to speak up and acknowledge that I don’t need that right now. So how do we collaborate somewhere in the middle?

Murray Guest  13:28

Yeah. Tammy has referred to me as her spreadsheet man a number of times, because that’s what I can bring to our relationship. You did start to touch on some of the great work you do it little miracles there. And little miracles have as I understand at the moment, 10 centers and about 300 staff is it?

Ben Bateman  13:48

Yeah, bit of Yes. 300. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Murray Guest  13:51

So tell us about what makes little miracles unique. I’ve got some thoughts cause you do some amazing work. But what comes to mind for you?

Ben Bateman  13:59

What comes to mind for me is focus on people and productivity another some really wonderful companies that Gallup does work with around this. So we’re not unique in that. But it’s something that we’re very passionate about. It does come from our our faith as well. So we are a family owned and operated business. So I’m one of four siblings, that eldest and my parents, the two founders of the business, were Christians. So we don’t want that to be an overt attack people upside the head, everybody needs to come to Jesus kind of thing. It’s by it. So we most of us are not Christians. 90% are not we don’t hire or promote based on people’s faith, we promote and hire based on people’s capacity. So where it does come in really strongly is in our values, and the way we seek to treat People. And that’s so for us, you, people are just as important as productivity or profit. And that’s a tricky balance. But it’s when we work really hard for. We don’t always get it right. But most of our stuff I want to say most, because there’s always, I guess, as a head of people and culture, I get to hear the bits where people don’t like us, from parents to staff. But we overwhelmingly happen to me again yesterday, where a staff members talking about the experience she had in her last center, and the experience, she’s having, sorry, I got that wrong. She came work for us as a trainee, she left and go to deployment position somewhere else. And she just emailed me asking me if we’ve got any deployment positions available, because she wants to come back to a culture where she’s treated with love and respect. Yeah, we hear that story over and over again. So it helps me to understand that it’s not just hot air, but we actually are living a culture where people experience where they are experiencing feeling really valued.

Murray Guest  16:14

Yeah. And I think, from my experience of working with you, you know, nearly four years ago, you know, your name, little miracles, as a organization, you truly live and breathe that know that you do that treating, you know, I would even say big miracles as well, the little miracles of your, your children that you that you teach, develop, grow, nurture, and then the miracles in each staff as well.

Ben Bateman  16:44

Yeah, we would say that everybody has incredible value, and that comes back to our face. So whether it’s a parent, a staff member, a child, or an auxiliary support, so that might be the coals man that drops off, they’re shopping for the food for their children, they are just as valuable as my parents as the founders, everybody has the same level of value, and everybody needs to be treated with that respect. So we work really hard at that, where, yeah, we have a culture called culture of honor. So we’re everybody, there were three pillars we work to that everybody would feel appreciated. Man, it was, and now it’s appreciated, understood. Counting down, and that’s really bad. So significant, appreciate significant and understood the three pillars when it comes to cultural honor. And in that back comes activator, right? So everybody would be honored, everybody will be valued as part of our community. And so we want to be a community and not just a company, we want our staff to know that they are just as valuable as a person and not just as a, an employee, or as a product. So strengths. For us, one of the ways we’ve really used it is that when we do strengths development, we don’t want to just do about their professional life, we really want to be about their personal life as well. So we spent a fair bit of time working with them around how they can use it in their personal life, because to us, that’s just as important as their productivity with us, as a professional educator.

Murray Guest  18:29

And and as you and I just touched on at the start about the impact strengths has made in our personal lives. And as an employer, I’m sure you see the impact it makes in someone’s personal life, when that person starts to embrace strengths in the way that they live and breathe with their life outside of work. And then that flows back into work as well.

Ben Bateman  18:51

100%. So one of the ways that we have done that is we have done partners strengths as well. We offered that where we run nights where a staff member can come they can bring their partner in, that might be a romantic partner, a parent or friend, or send them a code, and they can do their five strengths as well. And we pay for that. Because we want to invest in our staff, personally, and not just professionally. And then yeah, we’ll run a night where we’ll talk about how they can partner to get a better based on their strengths. And the feedback we’ve had from that been phenomenal. Yeah, I love that. And in organization of 300, we probably have 30 staff that are super passionate about strengths and go and develop on their own. They probably have another 30 to 60 that really enjoy it or take any opportunity we provide to be developed. And then we have some in the middle that that really enjoy it, but don’t really want to keep going further. And then we have some that Yeah, I like it, but it hasn’t had a huge impact. Yeah, I’ve got so how do we work with all those groups is one of our challenges and something that we are Trying to reflect on at the end of the year to look at our development process for next year. But for everybody, whether they love it or not, it’s a that’s a common language. Yeah. And that common language of strengths has been vital for our growth, and even vital to our people. Because now I can clearly see where someone’s different to me. And I can I now have a language to honor those differences. When in the past, I probably would have just talked about how those things frustrated me. Now I know where the beauty and not just the brokenness is in people’s talents that are different to mine.

Murray Guest  20:36

Yeah, I know you talk about appreciating the whole of a person that beauty and the brokenness, how does in little miracles, how does strengths help someone move through that brokenness or embrace that and understand that?

Ben Bateman  20:54

Yeah. So we’ve developed a whole another in house development program called wholehearted. And we did that because we’ve had limitations through other two tools we use, which is Gallup strengths. And then we have a leadership tool called transformational leadership. Both as tools are wonderful tools. But what they weren’t helping us to do is to help people through their brokenness, because broken people, break people, and whole people help bring healing to others, and you bring yourself to work every day. So having a culture where we ask everybody to value people, everybody around them is super tricky, right? So I felt like we weren’t actually giving people what we’re asking people to do something that was pretty unachievable. Unless we’re going to help people become more whole. They are going to do destructive things. And I do destructive things, too. So we would talk about being broken healers, we want to help people become more whole, insistently have some brokenness, and we don’t have everything together. But the more people are, the more they’ll be able to find and bring out the wholeness in others, and pre healing to other people.

Murray Guest  22:13

And if you’ve got a culture where everyone’s doing that internal work on themselves, about how I can grow, develop, be better. There’s a ripple effect, isn’t it that lifts the whole culture that lives the whole Center, the whole organization? Yeah.

Ben Bateman  22:28

Yep, beautifully put with, we’re only we’ve only had 10% of our staff go through our whole whole program. It’s only new COVID actually gave some space to work on that. But we’re already seeing an uptick in people’s ability to relate to themselves. So how hard it is to be proud of yourself compassion, knowing we are broken, integrating that, working through it through understanding vulnerability, forgiveness, love, but not mushy, romantic love, self sacrificial kind of love, and how we want to be a community. It’s all about power with and not power over. And part of our conversation as well. We are good at that to varying degrees. But that’s definitely a a goal or something that we’re working really hard towards, how do we be power? And that’s tricky and professional scripts. And because I have power over because of my role. So but how do I denaro power with to the best of my ability? How do I share power instead of you do it? Because I said, I can. I can fire you.

Murray Guest  23:42

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, a lot of teams talk, obviously, about collaboration. And you’re just framing that up in a much more, I think, even productive way, because people say I want to collaborate more. But actually, what does that really look like? And what I’m hearing is, okay, we’ve got power, everyone has a level of power, what does it look like we combine our powers. And we do that with each other? Obviously, strengths is a part of that. But what are those other elements that we bring to the table as well?

Ben Bateman  24:11

Totally. So strengths are that most common language. So we’ve been using a lot of Bernie Browns work, if you know how to program, we’re about to start doing a series with all our leadership groups going through her day to late book. So all our directors and managers we make by meet with them once a month in our three different regions, and I spend an hour talking through a chapter on a book. And then that notes in each region, any staff member from a trainee, right on the way up, if they’re not pilot leadership group can actually come and meet with me and then a group from that region to do that same leadership development. So it’s just something we offer to everybody.

Murray Guest  24:55

I just say, Oh, no, just acknowledge that there for that your time. Your investment in everyone getting that opportunity for their own development. And just that’s not a common approach. There’s been investment in the latest do that. And then I can imagine you going right on a jump in my car and head back home. Yeah. But actually, what you’re putting in place here is I’m actually going to stay and provide this to other people, to help them for their own personal leadership as well. And that’s, I think, such a great approach.

Ben Bateman  25:27

Thank you. I really appreciate that. But it’s living at those days where I can say, I care, I can say that I really well, we would talk often about we want to help everybody reach their full potential. But we need to back that up with action and not just word. And so yeah. And it’s a cost to attach that. Sure. But we believe in the investment into our staff, personally, not just investment into them professionally.

Murray Guest  25:53

Yeah. Something that’s on my mind. And that’s that in strengths we talk about two people can achieve that level of high performance approaching their work differently through their strengths. What does that look like, in a center where you’ve got people, teachers, approaching the way they might do their role through their strengths?

Ben Bateman  26:16

So yeah, beautiful question, and one we use consistently. So in a preschool room, there’s two main things that are important in any day, and that is the care of children, and the education of children. So we needed both of those things from the babies all the way up. And if in strengths, if you’re This is where we use the colors a lot, we were took a staff, the high blue, that are going to naturally see and do the caring side of being an educator. And if you hire purple, you’re gonna naturally see and do the task based things. And so we try in every room to have someone that’s high below and someone that’s high purple, in every room wherever possible, because both those things are equally important. Now, every room has a room leader, and she will usually have an error, actually the be blue, or purple predominately, or lean that way. And so one of the things we do is we actually work with her in layers to help them understand what is their natural, where, who they are first, yeah. Are they executed? Or are they a relationship builder first. And then we talk about that we actually look at the strengths of their team. And we encourage them to understand their strengths, their top five of all their team members, so that they can know where they will frustrate their team, and where they can be that well rounded team. So yeah, we’re looking to have well rounded teams wherever possible. It’s one of the one of the things we major on in strengths is having a well rounded teams and using not individual strengths, but but you’re more using the colors to go Okay, what does this team need? What is going to be the overextension of this particular room later, our room leaders meet with their air manager and their director, at least once a fortnight. And so strengths will be used in those conversations. Sometimes we use strengths for performance development, often,

Murray Guest  28:17

yep, yep. So what does that look like with strengths and performance development? How is that? Is that in a formal process, or is that more in a coaching sort of conversation, or both?

Ben Bateman  28:29

Much more in a coaching conversation. So I’ve done so all that stuff had their top five, but all of our management staff had their all 34s. So everybody, within hopefully, within three months of joining little miracles, does a one hour Skype session with myself a coaching call, usually three to four, three to six other people. And that will be an introduction. But if you’re in the management level, I do a one hour one on one around people’s or 30 fours, looking at their leadership style, and looking at their personal development. And then I will coach them from there periodically, depending on what their needs, so that most of our airmen just have a really good understanding of strengths and use it frequently. If they’ve got a specific performance problem, they will actually often ring me and our will have the phone have a conversation with the air. Imagine the director looking at that stuff in the strength and see if we can use strengths as a way to bring healthy performance management for that person and quit 80% of the time, we can look at a strength that’s being overextended yet, or we can see an area of weakness. And then we can have such healthy conversation with people. If someone’s got four, our top five blue and they’re struggling with getting tasks done, we’re not gonna smack them over the head because that’s not their natural capacity. So we need to find a partner or a tool that will help them become proficient in that area. So when when not gonna, we want to have realistic expectations. strengths helps us to have realistic expectations around what staff can actually do, not what we’d like them to do.

Murray Guest  30:13

Yeah. And if anyone listening that is new to strengths or has limited understanding. I think there can sometimes be this misconception it’s all about unicorns, rainbows and Skittles, and lovey dovey, but strengths helps have those tough conversations doesn’t it Ben.

Ben Bateman  30:30

Yeah, it makes those tough conversations so much more constructive. Yeah, is our experience of it. Because before we’d be more much, helping them with an area of weakness, and not really have anything productive to bring to that lucky vibe, let’s take your communication, which is one of the ones you love in this hall for you. If I have a staff member that’s communicating too frequently talking too much to have a conversation with her about dialing down his strength. And I love your communication. This is where your communication is really helpful to our team to get this when you overextend. Your communication is when it’s destructive. Yeah. asking her to dial down is a much easier conversation, then in the past, we would have said, Can you stop talking so much, please? That what how did she do that?

Murray Guest  31:19

Yeah. And that. And that feels like a personal attack. It’s like, I’m going to talk about an attribute a strength part of you, that you can, as we know, dial up and dial down versus making someone wrong.

Ben Bateman  31:33

Yeah, yeah. And if it’s, if it’s in your top five, you love it, it brings you so much. I’m asking you to stop doing what what you’re passionate about. Like this such. Yes, I strengths has been amazing for us in that space. And yeah, so we would often look at data and dialing down that is the tool we often use in performance development, where they need to dial up or dial down, or where is a partner or a, or a tool that will help them become more proficient? And yeah, we use that a lot.

Murray Guest  32:07

I am going back to a conversation. And when we did some work back four years ago, and one of the I think she was standing up in the director role or the center manager roll out a Blaxland. Center, and she had community competition. And remember, just this beautiful enthusiasm in a real healthy way she was applying that theme to how can we be at our best How can we, in a healthy competition, drive our observations and the development of the children across the rooms are such a great example of the the constructive way to apply that thing. And just I still use it as a an example to other people about the positive application of competition.

Ben Bateman  33:01

Yes, that’s beautiful. So one of my challenges is I’m dyslexic. So I often forget people’s names that I know really well, so I can see her face, she actually became our Director of that center long term until she had her little girl. Yeah, so but she’s still back in the center, but not in the directors role. And one of our other members of our black Center also has high competition. And yet, that center, which is a center that you we that you came in coach this in around strings, so we can get an idea whether we want to roll that strengts across the board. Blaxland is definitely our strongest center when it comes to strengths. So I don’t know if that’s all you Murray or speaks to my lack of credit. No, I’m just kidding. One. So it’s one of the most stable centers in terms of staff have been there for a long time. We are a growing company. So often we will bring a couple of experienced staff will go to the next center to bring strong culture. Yes, black vans being a Blue Mountain center, we only have two of those. They’ve been there for four plus years. So we had a lot of leadership staff there long term. And they love strengths. They’ve really embraced it. And they talk about it frequently. And it was an interesting thing. So I get what strengths has done is allowed us to have a healthy language around differences. Well, each one of my directors actually leads their teams a little bit differently. We’re a reasonable sized company. So we have a lot of policies and procedures. If you go into one little recurse center, it’s very similar to the next. But they are a little bit different because the leader is a little bit different. Yeah. How do we helpfully allow that leader to lead that scene a little bit differently, baby in the little miracles way? and strengths has been one of the The best tools are, by far and away the best tool for us to sometimes help the learner to dial back a little bit when they’re wanting to go too far into their strength when it’s not where the company’s going. But competition where I’ve seen that coming out with those girls is that they’re so staff meetings are amazing, but and the way that they they run competitions between their rooms, but that could be a really unhealthy thing that goes on very conscious of the way they did competition between there between the rooms in their center in a healthy way. And then that center does healthy competition with other centers as well, whenever we get together for big events, that sort of stuff. Black sounds very parochial, and they love to compete with everybody else. But they keep it healthy, and they’re very conscious of it and strengths has been helpful to help us think about that in a healthy way. If

Murray Guest  35:54

you’ve highlighted something to me without saying it, and I just wanted to throw this out there that strengths helps drive clarity. 100%. Yeah. And what I’m thinking is, as you’re saying about how different directors are going to lead through their strengths in a way that works best for them. And through that, combining that with, okay, but we also need to be clear around our expectations, and what is needs to be consistent. So it sort of partners beautifully with his driver of let’s make sure we’re really clear about some expectations as well.

Ben Bateman  36:26

Yes, a role clarity is extremely important for us. It’s something we had a, we’ve had a number of business coaches, and we’ve had one for over eight years. And then we got to a size that was beyond his experience. So we had another one, another business coach. And one of the things that he helped us do was bring clarity to every role from top to bottom in the business. And we’ve seen significant productivity improvements, but also relational improvements, too. Because if it’s clear, then we’re not going to have those frustrations with each other. So who’s responsible? Yeah. is a big one. And so your role clarity is a massive deal to us. But yeah, you within role clarity, we still want to have room for individuality, too. So individualization is half myself from our brother, who is the operations manager, for our general manager, who works alongside family. He has individualization that number three, I think. So, yeah, it’s a big deal to us that we have a lot of standardization. But then we have individualization alongside of that, where possible,

Murray Guest  37:43

yeah, great, great. Um, what else do you know has been really helpful to keep strengths alive and embed into little miracles.

Ben Bateman  37:56

So on doors, when you go into each room so that parents and staff can see the strengths as a photo, each team member has their top five strengths, and a little blurb about how the girls use their strengths in their role. So as a parent as you walk into the room, and before you even walk in, you can choose to look at that. The staff are saying that all the time, then inside the majority adoptees are finding out this isn’t rolled out everywhere. Yep, we have a tool called the best of us, is a strength tool. And that tool, which describes what people need, what frustrates them, what makes them tick. That’s my very loose version of

Murray Guest  38:40

what they bring and what they what you can count on from that page.

Ben Bateman  38:45

Yep. Thanks, man. Details. That’s actually on the inside of the cupboard doors. And so if a staff member is struggling with another team member, they can go to the sheet and have get a quick glimpse of how they can partner with that team. And better. casuals could use that too, as a way to go understand the people they’re working with. I don’t know if we utilize that tool as well as we could. But there are two tools that are front and center in yet. Yeah, every every center that we own.

Murray Guest  39:17

Yeah. And you combine that as you said with a strengths based process when people first joined the business about three months in the coaching you’re doing and into some of the meetings from my understanding as well some of the strengths based language and reference there as well. Yeah,

Ben Bateman  39:33

so, your language is a big one for us. So your strengths is talked about frequently. We do training days where we bring the whole company together. We do that once, sometimes twice a year. Every I get an opportunity at most of those to do some for development. And we will nearly always talk about some component of strength. So you know, we are always trying To bring strengths to the fore, and to make it a common language, that’s got to be something that we continually developing. We can’t just go Okay. Yes, everybody’s done their top five now, you’ve had the introduction session. Good luck. Yeah, if we want this to be common language, and we have to work hard to keep that at the forefront. So we, we do that. We have development channel, as part of our YouTube and on that I have a whole bunch of strings videos on there that I’ve shot with my staff. So that’s on there, they have access to that if they want as well. And make goals can be referred back to that. Um, yeah, I think they’re the main ways that Yeah,

Murray Guest  40:42

yeah, and it’s a combination, what I see there around leadership systems, and that environment, which, and, and the personal strength, space attitudes that people bring those, those four key areas to build a culture where you’re, you’re taking and moving through, which is just amazing to, it’s all those little things. And what I often say to clients is, it’s the little things that cost much to make the difference. And if you do those little things consistently, you build a culture.

Ben Bateman  41:10

Yeah. I’m incredibly fortunate that my parents, and then my siblings, or I’m really believe in strengths, all our partners have done strengths. We use it as a management team, we are all 100%, according to strengths and what it brings. So that makes a massive difference. So it’s from the top down, we believe in strengths. And we’ve seen it make a significant difference to our business. And so that then allows us to filter down, everybody knows it’s important. And then for me, I’ve worked really hard at doing the, I can’t catch 300 people, but I can coach 30. So in coaching 30 key leaders, if they’re if they are bought into strengths, and that for me, I believe means that I need to help them work with strengths that makes a difference in their, in their personal and professional life. If it does that, then they will buy in, and they will use it with their teams. So that’s how I use it strategically. Yeah, I worked really hard with our managers to make sure that they are utilizing strengths in their personal and professional life. And then from that, then they will use it with their teams.

Murray Guest  42:21

Yeah. And as you rightly put it, you’re not there day in day out by the latest they’re day in day out to have those conversations and bring it in into the culture. Something that I’m just also wondering, Ben, and that’s her and strengths based teaching. And is that a journey that little miracles are on is that sort of part of the vision going forward?

Ben Bateman  42:42

Yeah, it’s something we’ve explored a little bit. So we, as a company support a foundation in Bali called the bolo Foundation, which has an orphanage has a street center, and has a school. And one of the ways that we support biolife is, once a year, I go and work with international school teachers in Bali. And I do that by myself, we actually go with a number of primary school teachers from Australia, and some of our preschool educators as well. And we run workshops, to do a whole development for those staff. So we, the way we’ve used strengths there is really to help people understand their teaching style. The way I’ll use that sorry, is to help them understand their teaching style. And they help them understand try to help them understand students learning styles to that they have a way that they approach teaching. And children have a way that they approach approach, learning that strengths can really empower them to understand. Now that’s not a new concept. And there’s so many other ways they can approach that we’ve seen that as really beneficial. And that will be the way that we have used it so far, a little miracles, as well, that teachers understand they have a professional style, they have something that they bring, and also thinking about the children and the fact that they all have individual learning styles as well. So we use some other things around that. But that is one way that we’ve used strengths in that education space.

Murray Guest  44:27

And I think we’re combining that with the the openness of the teacher strengths for parents, that pages, then the parents will understand the different approaches of the different teachers and how they are working with the children and and from my memory, even then those conversations that teachers can have with parents around how the children’s strengths or learning styles are showing up.

Ben Bateman  44:52

Definitely, I said earlier that like 10% of our staff really embrace strengths and that really active strengths evangelists and strength spotters? Yep, so looking for strengths and other people. So that will be the other people will be the children, their teammates, and others. So those staff really are embracing it and looking at trying to spot the kids strengths and and reflect that back. For the majority of stuff, they’re probably not using it to that level. So while we try not to force things, too little miracles, the gods have so much on their plates, that strengths is part of strengths. And the way we mainly use it is for team building and development and performance. That’s strengths, main focus for us at little miracles. Can they use it for education? Yes, and some of them really do. But it’s not a focus for us. And part of it comes down to the fact that you have so much there’s so much on their plate, we try to be super conscious of only giving them tools that are going to be well, strengths is beneficial, but it’s not a necessary task.

Murray Guest  46:07

Yeah. And I guess what? Yeah, what I’ve experienced sometimes is where a tool like strengths people can start to get the blinkers on. And I’d like that that’s the answer for everything. Yeah. Whereas it’s the answer for lots of things like we’re talking about today. But let let’s not be blinding, you’re creating some potential blind spots of getting in the way of doing what you also need to do as well.

Ben Bateman  46:30

Yeah, for us. Because the girls do have a heavy workload, we’ve we’re highly regulated industry, and we’ve got a lot of education as well as care to be done. add an extra that is can become a burden. I I love what you just said in though, because part of my experience with any kind of coaches that sometimes they become that one wide, and think it is the answer to everything. I deeply appreciate that about you, Mary, that you’re not one liner, that strength, that you love it, you’re passionate about it, but it’s not the it’s not the fix everything. And we definitely approach that approach it that way at little miracles as well. It’s really good for some things. But it’s not going to help us with other things. Yeah, great. And we don’t want it to be a cure all. We have a few tools that we use. But what it does well, it does incredibly well.

Murray Guest  47:19

Yeah. Couple of last questions, just to help us wrap up, Ben, and thank you for sharing so much about the amazing work that you’re you’re doing little miracles. One of the questions I’m wondering is, what’s the future look like for little miracles.

Ben Bateman  47:39

I’d like to do a lot more development with our parents and with our staff community, for those people that really do want to go further with it. And then my brother Daniel, who is a head of operations, he has a lot of executing strengths. And he brings a lot of more of the systemization of things are thinks about approaches life, and accompany in that way, in us in a way that I just don’t. So one of things we’re looking at is pre Daniel becoming a coach at some stage in the future as well. So that he can look at the whole suite of tools that that Gallup offer, in the teaching they become a coach brings, and look at it through that lens, because I think they were missing some things because of my lack of talent, certain areas. And now, I feel bad about that by any stretch. But I want to we would love to get better. And one of the ways we can get better is that, like on on a well rounded coach, if we bring another coach on board, we can become well rounded together and be deliver better outcomes for our staff and families.

Murray Guest  48:44

And that’s that’s great awareness as a coach that how your strengths show up in the way you coach. And as I’m sure you’ve experienced, like I have, it’s often about the relationship. So what’s the relationship between the coach and the coachee? Like, and sometimes there’s someone that’s better for that person than you?

Ben Bateman  49:03

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful, man. I love individualization there. Yes. I think it’s super healthy, though. Yeah. Like you as a coach or not, and not the answer to everything either in strength line. Yeah, if you can understand that. And not be so egoic you’ll be a much better coach, you provide much better solutions and fear for people that you will so I was a very healthy thing. You’re doing that good brother.

Murray Guest  49:30

No worries, my friend. There’s some really good things that you’re also doing as little miracles. I know your mom released her book about a year ago or early this year, and you’ve got the enjoying parenting podcast, which is just fantastic. And you were talking before we started today, just about the ups and downs, the constructive destructive behaviors and the roller coaster parenting, which I love. So, I’m going to make sure to link to that podcast so people can listen to that and plus your YouTube channel that you mentioned, make sure we get that on there as well. And, of course, the website where you’ve just doing so many great things, and you’ve got some blogs and things on there as well. So, yeah. So to wrap us up, Ben, tell me what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Ben Bateman  50:15

spot energy. So for me, I think inspired energy is energy that brings inspiration to me, but also brings inspiration to others. So when I think about energy, I think about that flow, so taking people forward. So I want to have inspired energy, and I want to be inspired energy fathers. And that’s an energy that Yeah, is taking people into their, the fullness of who they are.

Murray Guest  50:51

And I think, as we’ve talked through the great work that you you, and your brother and your mum and dad, and everyone’s doing little miracles, you just explained inspired energy. By the way, you don’t just work with your staff. But they’re part of the team and their partners and the community. And that inspired energies report affecting everywhere. So I feel inspired. I’ve got my energy at the end of this conversation, the start. So that’s just awesome, mate. So you’re doing amazing work. And I’m sure that there’s all these little miracles lives that you’re changing through the work that you do. So thank you so much for sharing so openly, honestly, how you’ve embraced strengths, but how it’s part of the culture you’ve created. Really appreciate it.

Ben Bateman  51:39

Pleasure, mate. It’s great to talk to you. Thank you.

Murray Guest  51:42

Great to talk see on the mtn bike at some stage

Ben Bateman  51:46

can be seen.

Murray Guest  51:48

Thanks, Mate.

Episode 77 – Kristen Ulmer | Fear Expert

In this episode I chat with Kristen Ulmer, who is a thought leader on fear and anxiety. Kristen draws from her tenure as the most ‘fearless’ female extreme skier in the world, from intently studying Zen for 16 years and also from facilitating thousands of clients on flow and peak performance.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Kristin, welcome to the podcast. I’m actually really excited to talk to you today about fear, and how it shows up in all the different ways. And I loved getting to meet you two years ago in Bali. Man, it feels like so long ago. But I’m really keen to talk to you about it today. You’ve got such an important message. And just before we started recording, I started to talk a bit about what 2020 has been like, and this fear that’s in community in society at the moment. But before we get into that, how are you? And I hope you’re well and healthy today?

Kristen Ulmer  00:40

Well, the reason why you feel excited is because fear is an exciting topic. You mentioned the word fear, and people perk right up. I’m doing well. I’m in Salt Lake City, I’m healthy, going through divorce, which was unexpected, because I was very happily married. And so this is a strange time for me. And it’s definitely cracking me open towards greater learning and growing on the subject of fear than ever before. Which is that’s the that’s the bonus. All this shit in here, there must be a pony somewhere. That’s the pony for me.

Murray Guest  01:15

I like that analogy. Well, I haven’t heard that one. But yeah, I get that. And fear can show up in so many different ways. I’m sure it’s showing up in lots of different ways in your life right now, shows up my life in lots of different ways. So what are you tapping into right now from a fear perspective?

Kristen Ulmer  01:34

Well, it’s not that fear shows up in many different ways. It’s more that it shows up in many different places in our life. Fear is just fear, it’s very, very simple. It’s just a feeling of discomfort, it’s proven by science to first show up in the body. It comes from the amygdala, the the oldest part of the brain, it’s the manufacturing plant for fear and data is run through the amygdala. And if there’s a threat, it produces the feeling of discomfort called fear that’s supposed to lead to immediate, you know, physical reaction without thought. And, right now, this is a scary time for us all, actually, you know, just life is scary in general. And life has gotten scarier, not even, you know, even before COVID just because more happens in 24 minutes than used to happen in 24 years, like in our great grandparents era, there’s just so much going on and the amygdalas producing a lot of fear. And then now there’s COVID and some of us are fleeing COVID you know, fear is helping us flee it and sequestering at home. And some of us are fighting COVID, you know, the the fight or flight response, the scientists and the doctors and all that. And so we’re right on target with our fear response. And just added yet one more thing to be afraid of, in this crazy ride called life, this COVID thing is one more thing on the list.

Murray Guest  03:00

So just to help us all get on the same page, how do you define fear at its very simple, simplest definition.

Kristen Ulmer  03:06

People have a very complicated relationship with fear. And so we think of fear as being very complicated. But fear is actually very, very simple. It’s a emotion, a primary emotion, from which a lot of your human experience is created. And there’s been studies done, there are five basic primary emotions. And similar to three primary colors, red, yellow, and blue. The entire color spectrum is created like an infinite number of colors. There are also primary emotions from which the entire human experience is created. And these five are fear, anger, sadness, and those three are kind of considered the bad emotions. And then there’s joy, which is considered a good emotion. And then sexuality is actually labeled an emotion. I think that actually I prefer eroticism as the emotion and that includes the sexual but isn’t limited by it. And for some people, you know, eroticism or sexuality is considered good. And for some people, it’s considered bad. But these are the emotional experiences that form our lives as humans. And what we tend to do is we tend to want to create positive emotional experiences. And when we feel negative emotion, sadness, what do we do we apologize, we try to stop crying as fast as possible. We’re embarrassed by it. Anger, you know, anger management courses, or like, put a lid on it, you know, lock it in the basement, do not let that out. Fear, where some people are in denial of it. Some people avoid it. They don’t want to do anything scary. Some people fight it, they want to conquer, overcome it. So we have these incredibly complex relationships with the so called negative emotions. That makes them very complicated and fear is one of them. But fear, my definition of it, is just it’s a simple emotion, it’s just in our bodies, like I said, proven by science, a feeling of discomfort that leads to action. But then when things go wrong, all of a sudden you have fearful thoughts, and then your racing mind in the middle of the night, and you have phobias, and obsessive compulsive disorder, and PTSD, and depression and anxiety disorders. All of these are a result of the way that we subsequently treat that very simple fear response in our bodies. And most of us are trying to get rid of it. Like I said, ignore it, avoid it, etc, etc. And it’s like ignoring the truth about the human experience. And that’s what causes problems with fear and causing it to appear complex. But really, at its core, it’s a very simple emotion.

Murray Guest  05:52

So what I’m thinking about also is around that safety mechanism that we have to try and keep us safe. And that fear emotion is saying, hang on, the perspective that I’m giving you right now that you’re tapping into is that that is going to hurt you in some way. And so react to that, and it’s like, help me out here, but it’s like a future emotion. It’s like, I’m thinking about, as a human, that this thing in the future is going to hurt me in some way. So protect myself by fight flight freeze.

Kristen Ulmer  06:25

Right. And so what you’re referring to is just when people start to project in the future of things that they’re afraid of. You know, if people are in their heads around fear, you know, your body isn’t living in the future, it’s not living in the past, it’s just living in the moment. And so long as your fear response, you know, you’re just staying in your body and dealing with your emotions, emotionally, there’s no projection on the past or future or any of that. But the second, you start thinking about fear, and you’re in your head, and your head is always thinking about the past, projecting the future, you know, which is that also is a sign that something has gone wrong. And, I mean, there’s four basic ways that people deal with fear. And just as I outline these, you know, I want everybody to just notice which one are they, and I’m going to rank them from worse way to deal with fear, to the best way to deal with fear. The worst way to deal with fear – level one – is resistance to it. And don’t get too caught up on the word resistance, there’s many different ways to resist fear, but any kind of like, trying to get rid of it or denying it, probably the biggest form of resistance I see is being in your head, trying to understand it and think about it as a way to not have to feel it, like with a therapist or something. And then there’s acceptance, which is a step in the right direction, but it’s still kind of dealing with your emotions intellectually, like, Oh, you know, it is not a sign of personal weakness, it’s supposed to be here. Level three is where you start dealing with emotions emotionally, where you embrace it. And then level four is where you have intimacy with your emotion. And if you can learn to do level three and level four, then it’ll never wind up, fear will never wind up in your thoughts. And you’ll never be thinking about future fear or projecting, you know, thoughts into the future about things you might be afraid of. I’m like in relationships, for example, like, Oh, my gosh, I’ve met this guy, he’s really cute. But the last time, you know, I got in a relationship, it was a disaster, and I don’t want to fall in love with them. And then he could hurt me. And you know, next thing, you know, you’re in your head. That is usually the result of dealing with fear intellectually, and also being in resistance to it. And then it’s just going to persist and show up in wacky weird ways, as fearful thoughts.

Murray Guest  08:43

And even in that very quick example, I could picture someone’s mind jumping to the past, bring that emotional template framework around it, and then jumping to the future – what’s going to happen – as opposed to being in the present, and living in that emotion and embracing the emotion as you said.

Kristen Ulmer  08:59

Yeah, and let me just say, we’re starting off running like I’m introducing some really complex information like in the first five minutes of the podcast, I mean, we can simplify this and back way up if you want.

Murray Guest  09:16

Well, I’m loving this.

Kristen Ulmer  09:17

Going down this rabbithole. Like I said, I don’t expect people to really understand because there may be some missing pieces. But you know, it’s really interesting. Being a fear expert. It’s like I can just meet somebody. And when they start to say, Oh, yeah, this is my issue with fear. I’ll be like, Oh, yeah, I’ve seen it before. You know, that’s probably what’s happening.

Murray Guest  09:40

So let me just tap into something there. Why a fear expert? So obviously, there was the over 20 films that you’re a part of, and all these amazing jumps and experiences you had. At which point that how’d it lead you to going, you know what I’m going to really tap into and explore and help others around fear.

Kristen Ulmer  10:03

Being a professional skier was a very strange experience. I mean, it was very hedonistic. I had a massive ego trip. I mean, it was fun, fun, fun and dangerous and exciting and all of that. And I realized now, the whole time I was a professional skier, something felt off. Like I remember being on a chairlift at least five times looking at my skis saying, What am I doing? This is stupid. And, you know, I was the best in the world at a very dangerous, exciting sport. Nothing stupid about that from the outside looking in, but from the inside looking at them, like there’s, What is this? Why am i doing this, this doesn’t feel right. And I realized now that it was just part of my education, to be able to look at fear and anxiety from a new lens, from a different angle. You know, like be a fear and anxiety expert. My training didn’t come from a master’s degree or a PhD in college, I’m not like, kind of parroting things I learned from a professor or from another self help guru, like, I have come up with some really unique concepts and ideas that are actually the radical opposite of most of all of what’s out there. And I came to it just through 33 years now of just real life experience. You know, first, I mean, what is extreme skiing, it means that I was risking my life for a living, you know, the definition of extreme is the consequences of failure, and certainly in the context of extreme skiing, are death. And so I was making life or death decisions on a daily basis for 15 years, you know, dealing with a tremendous amount of fear, far more than the average public and I learned you don’t learn from experience, you learn from reflecting on the experience. I had enough of a curiosity sparked during those times, because I was considered fearless, to really reflect on those 15 years and figure out exactly what I did right by fear and what I did wrong by fear. And then studying is an approach to fear and then working with 10,000 clients now, like I have basically come up with exactly why people struggle with fear and anxiety and other people don’t. And what to do about it. That is currently not being taught by pretty much anyone. So this is, this is really new, super sexy information that comes from a, you know, from I mean, I’m, like, groomed by the universe for 33 years now to bring this message. And, and I see my ski career as just an education.

Murray Guest  12:40

Yeah, so I think, so my definition here that I thought I had as you’re talking about extreme skiing, or extreme sport, I think if the average person let’s just say anybody watches a sport and thinks, ‘I can do that’, that’s skiing, or that’s mountain biking, or that’s, you know, motorbike riding. But then when we add the word extreme to it, it’s like, straightaway, I can’t do that. I just, the average person can’t see themselves. So I watched a number of videos of what you were doing. I mean, the front flip in Wyoming. That was in Wyoming, wasn’t it? Yeah?

Kristen Ulmer  13:19

That was in Alaska.

Murray Guest  13:21

Yeah. And I, I’m, I’m watching that thinking, I hope she lands this. Of course, she lands it but I’m gonna hope she lands this and it’s just but it’s just magical, you know, landscape that you’re playing in as well. Like, just just beautiful as well. So this is popping into my head right now, how did you balance the ‘I’m appreciating this magical landscape, that’s just you know, that only I get to see and experience’, and at the same time thinking, ‘Oh, shit, this is pretty fearful stuff.’

Kristen Ulmer  13:52

Back in my ski career, I didn’t feel fear.

Murray Guest  13:56

Ah.

Kristen Ulmer  13:57

And as beautiful as the landscape was for me, that wasn’t the draw for me. For me, the draw was radical self expression. You know, yes, I noticed landscape, but it really wasn’t that big of a deal to me, you know, it was the self expression. I want to address if somebody feels fearless, like I did, what actually is going on. Like if they have a kid who seems to be fearless, you know, what’s the difference between that one kid versus the other kid that you know has a lot of fear. The difference is that that kid enjoys feeling fear, they’re not fearless. Neurochemically fear and excitement are exactly the same thing. And if you have, and I talked about the four levels, if you embrace fear, and if you have an intimate relationship with fear, it just feels like excitement and presence. It actually takes you into the zone and little else does, like extreme sports are notorious for taking people into the zone. It’s like you have to be in an altered state to survive some of these things, you know, and just be tapped into some intuition or instinct, because you know, you have to make instant reactions that will save your life or not save your life.

Murray Guest  15:13

So what’s the impact of calling someone fearless?

Kristen Ulmer  15:19

It sets our society up to live under an impossible ideal. Like, people would look at somebody like me and say, Oh, she’s fearless. I wasn’t fearless. You know, I was motivated by fear of not being special, fear of not being loved. That’s what had me do all these super sketchy things. The fear was the draw. I loved feeling fear, you know, I was addicted to it. It actually became an unhealthy addiction to me like a heroin addict. You know, I became a fear addict. And I mean that I was absolutely not fearless. It’s just that I, the part of me that became a world class athlete, I was having an intimate relationship with fear. And keep in mind, I have confirmed this with pretty much you name it, name the athlete I’ve talked to them. I interviewed 26 World Class professional, extreme athletes in the last year and a half for probably two hours each just on fear. And they didn’t even know that this is what was going on. But by the end of the couple of hours, they’re nodding their head so hard I thought their neck was gonna break like Alex Honnold who free solo’d El Capitan. Laird Hamilton, arguably the best big wave surfer in the world. What we are, we’re not fearless. And there’s a rumor going around that Alex Honnold had a damaged amygdala. That’s not the case. He thought that test that was done on him was not realistic and very stupid. What we are tapping into and make no mistake, this is not just with athletes, this is also with business men and women, people who you admire who are doing amazing things. What they are, is they’re having an intimate relationship with fear. And as a result, they come across as fearless. The people who come across as very, very fearful, actually, what they are, is they’re afraid of fear, which is different. Like they, they don’t want to feel fear, they are in resistance to it. And actually the awful feeling that we associate with fear, that’s not fear. Fear is actually I mean, it’s uncomfortable. But it’s, it feels more like excitement when you’re having an intimate relationship with it. The awful feeling we associate with fear is actually our resistance to feeling it. It’s I don’t want this I don’t want to feel this. What’s wrong with me? This is an awful feeling. It’s that resistance that feels so awful, not the fear itself.

Murray Guest  17:45

So at that resistance level, we’re fighting it, we’re pushing it away, or trying to run from it.

Kristen Ulmer  17:50

Right. And we’re actually taught to do this in our culture. Like, that’s where all the language comes from. You want to conquer and overcome fear. Well, look at that language triumph over it, it suggests a war, a mighty battle against this huge enemy. And that puts you at war with fear, which means it puts you at war with your own body, where the fear is, it puts you at war with the amygdala, you do not want to pick a fight with fear and you do not want to pick a fight with the amygdala, they will win every time.

Murray Guest  18:19

So fear’s good as well. And I’m not telling you, I’m just thinking this through.

Kristen Ulmer  18:26

Let me just adjust that before you move on. Fear’s not good ‘as well’. Fear is good, period. Like, I do not see good fear, bad fear. Like there’s good stuff, bad stuff about it. If you embrace fear, the good stuff is all you get. If you’re intimate with fear, it actually takes you into a spiritual place, an altered state, it’s a gorgeous experience. And the fear becomes one of the best parts of your life. If you are in resistance to fear, only the good stuff shows up. Like whatever your relationship is, with fear determines whether it’s like one of the best parts of your life or one or one of the worst parts of your life.

Murray Guest  19:07

For the listeners, how do they then determine where their relationship sits with fear?

Kristen Ulmer  19:15

I love that question. You know, I’ve done hundreds of podcasts, nobody has ever asked me that. That’s an excellent question. So how does one determine.. Well, you know, I bought a sat radio and went out to the mountains once, I bought it at REI, this is back in the 90s, the damn thing wouldn’t work. And I turned it on, it’s just static, just, you know, white noise. I brought it back to REI. I’m like, What the hell this thing didn’t work? And they said, Well, did you raise the antenna? I’m like, Ohh. It’s like our life is just static, like we can’t see or tell anything about what’s going on in our undercurrent unless we raise our antenna. And it used to be said that knowledge is power. But the guy who said that said that in like the late 1400s, when we also believe the world was flat, right? It’s kind of outdated. What’s more true in today’s world is that knowledge is power or awareness is power. And so it starts with just having an awareness practice, like, what’s my deal with fear? I mean, we are mostly living in denial about fear, like, we do not want to believe that fear is as big a part of our lives as it is. And actually, the amygdala is manufacturing fear all the time, it’s to the point where it’s actually with us every moment of every single day, in pretty much every interaction we have, I feel it right now. You know, because I’m aware of it. And, and so just becoming aware of the fear itself to start with, and then become aware of your relationship with that fear. Like I like to personify it, see it as a person in our lives, like a roommate that you live with all the time, like, what is my relationship with it? Am I in denial of this roommate? Do I ignore this roommate? Am I in a war with this roommate? Do I hate this roommate and wish he would go away? Like, just getting to know your relationship with fear is absolutely the crucial first step towards having a healthy relationship with it. Because you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge. You may think that fear is the problem. But you may actually learn by having an awareness practice that you are the problem, you’re actually picking a fight with fear. And then that leaves fear no choice but to retaliate. I mean, all gets revealed once you raise your antenna.

Murray Guest  21:35

Hmm, gotcha. And once taking the time to actually understand that relationship. And then let’s say I’ve realized, I’m actually resisting my feeling, I’m at level one. If there’s a simple technique to help me start to really accept my fear, to then move to that next level, what could I do?

Kristen Ulmer  22:01

The the first, well, it’s interesting how we’re just organically leaning towards my top three tips for people. The first tip is just become aware of your relationship with fear. The second Hot Tip is to change your language around how you talk about fear and less, view fear. And back to being a roommate, you know, if you’re used to saying, Oh, my gosh, fear is holding me back from doing the things I want to do. It’s not true. My unwillingness to feel fear is holding me back from doing the things I want to do. It’s like, okay, your fear is next to you. And your fear is only here to help. I’m going to say that, again, your fear is only here to help, like nature did not get this wrong. Fear is like the perfect design. Not only does it keep you safe, but it perks you up, makes you sharp, focused, helps you bring your A game to everything you do. It makes you feel alive. You know, it’s very exciting. If you’re ever bored, go and do something that scares you. And you’ll see, it’ll be the highlight of your day, maybe even of your year, like fear is only here as a resource, of source of motivation, all of that. It’s wonderful. And so, here you have this roommate, who’s like here to support you. And you’re like, you’re holding me back. It’s like, oh, wait a second. No, he’s not holding me back. I’m holding me back, because I’m unwilling to kind of see this roommate that I have is somebody that’s here to help me. So change your language about that roommate, like start talking about fear in a positive way.

Murray Guest  23:42

Our words shape our world, don’t they? Yeah, I totally agree.

Kristen Ulmer  23:48

Yeah, there’s just so much that comes from switching from a pessimistic or negative view of fear, to seeing fear as a positive and then changing the way you think about it and talk about it accordingly. It’s just like, you’d make that one simple shift. And you can’t even believe how much your life starts to become magic. You work through issues, scary things faster, like I’m going through a divorce right now. It’s a very dark, emotional time for me, a lot of fear, a lot of anger, a lot of sadness, you know, because I’m embracing it all. I’m in flow with it all. I’m moving through this difficult time much faster. I’m learning incredible lessons from it. You know, you don’t get stuck in a war with your own body and your own self. And it’s just, I don’t know, just having that kind of optimistic and positive view of fear will also get you taking more risks. You know, and then when you take the risks, like, ask me about Alex Honnold at some point, and I’ll tell you what we explored because I think that people are going to be very surprised by what he and I came up with is happening with him. 

Murray Guest  25:00

And can I just say if you haven’t watched free solo, it is such a fantastic documentary. I really enjoyed it. Well, it’s funny because as you were talking about the language and the words we use and how we describe our fear, I wondered if that was a theme that came out of your conversations with the athletes you’ve spoken to in the last 18 months? Did they consciously choose or were they consciously aware of how they describe their internal dialogue towards their fears? Or was that something that came out of some of those conversations?

Kristen Ulmer  25:38

What I found was, I interviewed 26 World Class extreme athletes, the best in the world at their sports, multiple sports. Similar to when I was going through my ski career, and people called me fearless. I believed my own hype. I felt fearless, I acted fearless. I wasn’t aware that fear was playing any part of my life. And I was also, you know, if you’d interviewed me when I was 24 years old, I would have had no clue what my relationship was with fear. And a lot of these athletes I interviewed who were in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, and they basically, they are the poster children, for people that do scary things with their life. And you think that they would have some sort of understanding of what their relationship was with fear. 23 of the 26 had no clue. Even when they were in their 50s, Alex Honnold had no clue what his relationship was with fear. And usually what they would start off the interview with would be just parroting stuff that they’ve heard from self help gurus, like, Oh, I don’t let fear get in my way, you know, I put it out of my mind, I’m, you know, I am able to conquer my fear. And so it doesn’t hold me back. Or, or they’ll say something like, I’m a scaredy cat. But I feel the fear and do it anyway. You know, like, the, the cliches were profound. It’s like, okay, everybody’s the same old, you know, that, that they’ve heard. But then I would say, Well, have you ever thought about it this way? And do you think that this might be going on? And what do you think about this? And, and I would, some of them, I would facilitate a conversation broker, that conversation between them and their fear. And, and one by one, we found out some similarities here that people were eventually were like, Oh, my gosh, that’s, I think that’s it. That’s it. That’s what’s going on. And that’s where I came up with the intimacy thing. And so Alex Honnold, you know, seemingly the poster child for what to do about fear. What we came up with is two things, basically. And so this is a great segue into that. He’s not fearless. And if he was fearless, he said he would have just tried to free solo El Capitan the first year he was in Yosemite, and in his words, he would have died for sure. Because we concurred that anybody that’s fearless just dies, you know, or perceives himself. And a lot of these extreme athletes do die. And most of the ones who die, walk around all cocky saying, Yeah, I’m not afraid of anything. You know that those people are super dangerous.

Murray Guest  28:17

Not just dangerous to themselves, but dangerous to the people around them as well.

Kristen Ulmer  28:21

Absolutely. Well put, and what was really going on with Alex, I mean, he spent 10 years before he free solo’d El Capitan, is that he is just willing to feel fear. He even enjoys feeling fear. And so he’s willing to step out of his comfort zone, where there exists fear. And so this is a podcast about business, it’s like, you know, the, the people who are willing to take risks and step out of their comfort zone, are also willing to have fear. Because where there’s risk, there’s fear. And so you, you know, like, imagine a circle, this is your comfort zone, you’re still gonna feel fear within your comfort zone. But if you’re willing to take on more fear, you’re willing to step out of your comfort zone. And you do that often enough, you know, put a dot outside your comfort zone, each time you take a risk, eventually connect the new dots, you have a bigger comfort zone. And so that’s what Alex did, every year is in Yosemite kept taking little risks, you know, the magical number is 4%, 4% out of your comfort zone, studied by science, right? Is the optimal flow state because then the fear takes you into a flow state, if you’re in flow with it, that is, if you’re intimate with it. And then so he just kept expanding his comfort zone bigger and bigger and bigger until the day he free solo’d El Cap. It wasn’t that big of a stretch for him to step out of his very expanded comfort zone and do what he did. And so that’s the secret of success with anyone who finds out their greatest potential. You don’t find out your greatest potential by just thinking about it. You find out your greatest potential by taking risks. So willingness to feel fear actually supports you figuring out what your greatest capabilities are. And so there’s a lot of people that are fear avoiders, which is a form of resistance to fear.

Murray Guest  30:12

Yep. Back to level one then.

Kristen Ulmer  30:14

Yeah, right, right. So willing to feel fear, embracing fear, you will take risks, you will step out of your comfort zone. And here’s the clincher with this, this is the bonus. Not only is there no learning and growing, without a willingness to feel fear, you know, because fear is very expensive for the body to manufacture. It requires a lot of energy, you actually support the amygdala and the body by expanding who you are, and and, you know, expanding your comfort zone, because then it doesn’t have to manufacture fear anymore. So here’s the conclusion of that – you cannot have less fear by controlling it. The only way you can have less fear is by taking risks, and expanding your comfort zone. And that comes from a willingness to feel fear. So the only way you can have less fear is found by a willingness to feel fear in the first place.

Murray Guest  31:11

That’s that’s gold, right there. Yeah, I love that.

Kristen Ulmer  31:15

Not just for business, anything, relationships, I mean, life, just finding out your greatest potential as a human being. And then while you’re out of your comfort zone, how do you deal with the fear? Well, you have an intimacy with it. And so it takes you into that altered state called flow or the zone. That was the second secret of Alex.

Murray Guest  31:34

Well, the thing I’m thinking about here, whether that’s what you were doing as an extreme skier, or Alex, free soloing El Capitan, that there’s it’s not like, as you said, this is bravado of just going in and doing it. And tell me if I’m wrong here. But the planning, the preparation, which actually sets for success. So I haven’t seen a video of you, because I haven’t watched all the videos of you and your preparation. But what I’m thinking about when I saw Alex, was all the preparation he did to make sure, yes, he’s embracing the fear. He’s intimate with it. And he knows how he can set himself for success. And the analogy I’m drawing here is, let’s say someone’s listening to this, and they’ve got to do a presentation. And they’re really fearful about that. Or they want to have a conversation with another leader within the business. And they’re fearful about that. It’s not like just pushing the fear aside and running in there. But there’s, How do I embrace that and actually prepare for success to actually achieve what I’m trying to do?

Kristen Ulmer  32:32

Right, it’s, it’s like, there’s two ways to deal with a speech, you know, or presentation or a job interview. You know, you’re slightly under prepared her or, anyway, anything that you’re going to do in business, you have two basic ways of dealing with it. And look at you as Batman and your fear as Robin. You could either punch Robin in the face, and feel powerful, and he’s laid out on the floor and just, you know, crumpled, and you go in there and you give the speech, right? And you think, ah ha! But guess what. Now, Robin’s pissed off, he’s gonna come back, and he’s gonna terrorize your life and seek vicious revenge, which is what fear does. The other thing is, you can bring Robin on stage with you, and you’re stronger together than apart. What that looks like, in practical terms, and this is gonna really shock some people. Because what most people do, if they’re about to give a speech, or have a difficult conversation, is the punching Robin in the face. And what that looks like is they rationalize fear away, there’s nothing to be afraid of, I’ve got this, I’m totally prepared. They take three deep breaths, they breathe in calm, they breathe out their fear. They just block it out by maybe cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, more positive, they replace it with something more positive. Like, all these things that we’re taught to do regarding fear, are just forms of resistance. And they work. They’re proven by science to work. In fact, scientifically, they work, they calm you down in about four minutes. And that’s why they’re taught. You know, that’s why everybody teaches this kind of thing. And they rationalize there’s nothing to be afraid of. It’s just false evidence appearing real. It’s just all in my head. That is absolutely not true. It is very scary to give a speech. So and then you start to distrust yourself. So there’s long term consequences of that. And there’s Carl Jung, whatever you resist persists. So yes, it works. But then the next time you give a speech, you have to do it for four and a half minutes. And then the next time it takes five minutes, and the next thing you know, you go home and you have an anxiety disorder, that seems unrelated. You’re like What’s up with this? I just had a panic attack or you’re picking fights with your wife. You know, because you haven’t dealt with your fear at work, and you’re just kind of throwing it at her when you get home, or you can’t sleep, you have insomnia because you didn’t deal with your fear during the day. It gets very clever. It hijacks your mind in the middle of the night when you’re trying to sleep and runs its agenda in your thoughts in the middle of the night, or you have PTSD from giving the speech, on and on. I mean, you eventually wind up with some form of weird depression or anxiety disorder. It’s like, next thing you know, there’s some part of your life that just doesn’t make sense. So that’s the first choice. You know, that’s the punching Robin in the face. The second choice is what I teach is a four step process of I mean, I feel like I’ve been talking for a long time. Do you have any questions before I move on to that? 

Murray Guest  35:47

No this is great. I’d love to. Well, the second choice is bringing Robin on stage.

Kristen Ulmer  35:51

Yeah. And it’s a little more nuanced than that. It’s more about honoring Robin. So that Robin isn’t hysterical. You know?

Murray Guest  36:01

Yeah. I’m seeing old Batman TV show here with a POW and a Wham. And that’s what I’m seeing.

Kristen Ulmer  36:11

Yeah, but usually they’re fighting enemies you know. Fear’s not an enemy, fear’s your Robin. So it’s how you treat Robin. How I deal with fear, when I’m about to give a speech is I go find, of course, I’m always super nervous before I go on stage and the word anxiety, nerves, worry, are just other names for fear. You know, we don’t like to call it fear anymore. We call it anxiety. Like nobody calls it fear. Like the guy on Wall Street, he’s like, Oh, my gosh, I’m pickled in anxiety. And we’re like, oh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But if he says, Oh, I’m pickled in fear, they’re like, Oh, my gosh, what’s wrong with you?

Murray Guest  36:49

Yeah.

Kristen Ulmer  36:50

It’s the same exact thing! Specifically anxiety is recirculating fear that’s stuck in your body. And it’s there because you’ve blocked fear from being in flow, and it’s stuck in your body and recirculating.

Murray Guest  37:04

Can I just say, and the bit that you said before, which I absolutely loved, and I want to make sure that people didn’t miss it is, if we push it aside, we don’t discuss it, we don’t embrace it. We don’t, you know, welcome it in some area, it’s going to show up and recycle and get, you know, like a volcano and show up in some other way in our life. And I think it’s so powerful.

Kristen Ulmer  37:29

It could show up as anger issues too, like, classic example is somebody that, like a kid that has a really scary home life. And fear makes him feel powerless, but he has to feel something. And so he feels anger instead. Because it makes him feel powerful. But fear and anger are very closely tied. In fact, when I mentioned getting the primary emotions, in some studies, anger isn’t even a primary emotion. Anger is mostly made up of fear. So yeah, like for for fight, it’s anger, for flee, it’s fear. Yeah, so anyway, it’s just God, it’s such a bad idea to resist fear. And yet, every single self help guru or psychologist or doctor will help you do that. Cause it works. Right.

Murray Guest  38:24

Yeah, but I think the bit that you’ve you’ve very clearly articulated is it works for a period of time, for a moment in time.

Kristen Ulmer  38:31

Yeah right. Right. And then, of course, people ultimately medicate their fear away. And 20 to 40% of their aliveness in the process.

Murray Guest  38:41

I have a question. Do you think you would have done anything differently when you were extreme skiing, if you knew what you know now, back then.

Kristen Ulmer  38:56

Yes, absolutely. And just bookmark the four steps. I will say that the reason why I know all this is because I did some things right by fear. And I did some things wrong by fear during my ski career. And what I’m explaining, you know, that people do wrong by fear I myself did. I was one of those really clueless, stupid athletes that walked around all cocky and arrogant, saying, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m lucky to be alive. I also burned out. You know, I thought I burnt out on the skiing but really, I burnt out on how much effort and energy it took me to block out fear, a tremendous amount of fear and I I crashed my adrenals, I wound up also having PTSD because I saw a lot of friends die and didn’t know how to handle the emotions there for my ski career. Another thing is I became such a rigid person in order to not feel fear and after about 10 years, like I was just in a sport as violent as extreme skiing, you need to be more slinky-like, and like we look at ski racers, for example, and they’re in their 30s. And they start having an injury after injury after injury. What is that? It’s not because they’re getting older. It’s because they’re very rigid in order to be quote, fearless, and you throw a tin can against a brick wall, it’s gonna break, right? Yeah, you throw a slinky against a brick wall, it’s gonna be just fine. They just become so rigid that the slightest, you know, issue, you break. So I had a lot of injuries. And it almost got to the point where every time I went skiing, and I did something difficult or dangerous, that required an impact, I wound up having at least a little injury from it. Not because of my age, but because of my compromised relationship with fear. But the things that I did right by fear is what made me a world class athlete in an incredibly difficult sport. So I had a real paradox going on, I both radically did what should be done regarding fear. And that’s what made me so great. And I radically did what shouldn’t be done regarding fear. And that’s what caused a lot of problems for me. And when I retired, I set to figure out what the heck had gone wrong. And that’s what led me to the conclusions that I’ve come up with today that have been tried and true with, you know, a lot of like, probably 10,000 people now. So.

Murray Guest  41:22

Yeah, and as you’ve said a number of times, and I totally agree, this is a human thing. It’s not an athlete thing.

Kristen Ulmer  41:29

Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, look at the statistics of anxiety disorders. They’re, they’re only getting worse and worse and worse, despite all these methods and modalities, you know, to punch Robin in the face, like, we’re only getting more and more afraid we’re only having greater anxiety, greater depression, greater PTSD. It’s like, one in five people in America have an anxiety disorder. One in four Europeans struggle with either anxiety or depression. Like it’s crazy. And the numbers are just getting worse every year. Despite all these meditation apps and breathing exercises and cognitive behavioral therapy, it’s not working. Right? Let me tell you what does work though.

Murray Guest  42:14

So I’m on stage with, I’m Batman, I’ve got Robin, I haven’t punched him. You know, we’re a partnership. What am I doing next?

Kristen Ulmer  42:26

Okay, so let’s back up. I was recently asked to give a speech, and it was in front of 10,000 people, it was last weekend. And it’s a lot of people. It’s very scary. And for me, I’m on the phone, they’re like, do you want to do this? They’re gonna pay me a lot of money. And I thought, well, the question isn’t, you know, do I want to do this, or make that kind of money? The question is, am I in the mood for fear right now? A lot of fear, because it’s going to be super scary. And the answer was..

Murray Guest  42:58

Can I just pause, because there’s a really good lesson here, which is, it’s not like tick, I’m done with fear. Because here I am talking to you. And you’re very open and vulnerable that it is an ongoing conversation relationship. And I think that’s really important that people don’t look at you or someone else and go, Oh they’ve got it sorted, they’re done. And I think this is really important that it’s actually an ongoing, help me if I’m getting this incorrectly, but it’s an ongoing relationship with our fear. And that ongoing self awareness.

Kristen Ulmer  43:31

Yes. And, you know, when my book came out three years ago, I googled it, you know, people that are fear experts anxiety, you know, fear. Everybody has an opinion about what to do about fear, but nobody on the planet that I could find anywhere. I mean, I spent days searching, was willing to call themself a fear expert. And why is that? Because I think that we expect our fear experts to a) be fearless and b) teach other people how to be fearless. It’s impossible. And it’s undesirable. Nobody’s willing to claim that they’re fearless. That’s just, you know, ridiculous. So yes, I’m a fear and anxiety expert. And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, this is gonna be terrifying. 10,000 people. And, and it’s way out of my comfort zone. Like the most i’d spoken to was 1500 people when I got the phone call. So then I hang up the phone. And I said, Yes, of course. Because feeling fear is my thing, right?

Murray Guest  44:29

Yes.

Kristen Ulmer  44:30

I’m not a fear avoider. I embrace fear. I know that it’s gonna expand who I am as a person. And I figured, okay, either I’ll do a great speech, and then I’ll feel amazing afterwards, and feel the cortisol high and all of that. And I’ll have felt connection to the audience and gotten my message out there. Or I’ll crash and burn. Right, humiliate myself and have another growth opportunity to know what not to do next time. So either way, it’s a win. So I say yes. And then I have three months with fear just nagging me, you know, Robin’s like, Hey, you better stop watching Netflix, you better get your butt off the couch and write that speech and memorize that speech, or else you’re going to be really embarrassed. So it motivates me, you know, there’s a saying in Zen, a good horse moves even the crack of a whip. So it was like cracking me like you got to get off your butt. So then I prepared, prepared, prepared, and I like to be just a little underprepared the day of so that the fear can be with me to help keep me sharp and focused. If I have the speech to memorize, I just blank out and just blah blah blah, right, and repeat it like a robot. So the fear, I know it’s going to keep me sharp and focused and on point when I give the talk. So I’m a little underprepared. So it’s 10 minutes before I’m going to go on, last weekend. And I’m terrified. I’m shaking, you know, I’m about to talk about fear and anxiety, and I’m practically having a panic attack. So this is what I did. And I went and found a quiet place to be by myself. And I did four steps, I closed my eyes, and I acknowledged that it’s normal and natural for me to feel fear. Of course, I feel fear, you know, I’m about to give a speech. It’s not a sign of personal weakness, it’s not a character flaw. It’s just a sign that I’m human. And that’s the acceptance part. You know, the second step is I found the fear in my body, like, Where was it, it was in my chest and in my throat. And I put my hand on it, and I noticed how strong it is. And then the third step is I then looked into whether I was in resistance to this fear. You know, I don’t after teaching what I teach for a really long time, I’m very rarely in resistance to my fear anymore. But certainly when I was just putting these concepts together, I was still in resistance to it. I didn’t want to feel it. And the resistance actually is the awful feeling, not the fear itself. So I then notice, am I in resistance to this fear? And what if it was there, what it would look like is I don’t want to feel this, I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to be here. This sucks. I hate this feeling. I hate this feeling. You know, it involves thoughts, but it wasn’t there, right. But you want to check in on the resistance, because you want to have that antenna up, you want to have that awareness. Suffering equals discomfort times resistance, if your discomfort of fear is a level 10. And your resistance is a level 10. 10 times 10. That’s a whole lot of suffering. But if your discomfort is a level 10, which you’re going to feel innately you know, and your resistance, which is, you know, is taught in our culture. Let’s say you get it from a 10 down to a one, what’s 10 times one, not a lot of suffering, you get the resistance down to a zero, there’s no suffering. And it’s that way with anything hot, cold… Wim Hof, like, you don’t resist the cold, it takes you into an altered state. You go into a sweat lodge, you don’t resist the heat, it takes you into an altered state. With fear, if you don’t resist the fear, it takes you into an altered state. Same with pain. That’s the reason why people love getting tattoos, half of them, they don’t resist the pain, it takes them into, like any kind of lack of resistance. It just takes you into a flow state. And then level four. And this is where the science comes in. I mentioned before that if you rationalize it away, you know, if you take breathing exercises, the fear calms down in four minutes. If you do step four, it’s been proven by science, the fear calms down in four seconds. And there’s no long term effects. Which is level four or step four. I just had an intimate experience with my fear. So I just put my hand on my chest where the fear was, and I just had kind of a like, put the Barry White on, right. It’s not sexual. You hear intimacy. It’s more like, like, have you ever had an intimate experience with a piece of cheesecake?

Murray Guest  49:12

Oh, yeah. Yeah, blueberry cheesecake.

Kristen Ulmer  49:16

Oh, yeah. So imagine putting your hand on wherever your fear is and having an intimate experience with that fear. And it calms right down. And anyone that has a child, if their child’s upset and has a lot to say, if you just spend some quality time with them, and just completely love on them. They always calm right down. It’s the same with your fear. And then I went on stage and I was very reasonable and Robin was there with me to keep me sharp and focused because I was a little underprepared and he wasn’t screaming or yelling, and it was a really beautiful practice.

Murray Guest  49:54

Yeah, well, and I’m sure you knocked it out of the park. The bit that I think I also take from that, as you said that underprepared bit is that level of underprepared keeps you on your toes, keeps you focused, keeps you aware. Keeps you curious, I would say.

Kristen Ulmer  50:09

And why is that, is the question. Well, because the fear is the very thing, that little extra drop of fear. It’s like the secret sauce to great performance.

Murray Guest  50:24

Wow, this has been so good. Thank you. This is awesome. And those four tips, those four tips, I think, whatever you are facing as a person in your life right now, I’ve got a mountain bike trail that I go to regularly and as you know, I ride, still. And there’s a name of this part of the trail called ‘the drop off’. That name, when I hear it, I can feel it in my gut straightaway. I’m like, it’s the drop off. And I’ve seen someone go over the handlebars down the drop off. And so I can now have a better way to approach the drop off, which I’ve been avoiding every time I get there. There’s the A line, there’s the B line. We want to take the A line. But you know, I’ll be taking the B line now. So how do I now prepare myself and actually stop future projecting myself into that situation? And and pushing the fear? As opposed to right, how do I prepare myself and be having an intimate relationship to where I feel that fear in my guts. I’ll get back to you on that one.

Kristen Ulmer  51:35

Okay, well, I’ll just real quick, you know, like anything, it takes practice, do the four steps before you go out on the mountain bike trail. So that you’re prepared.

Murray Guest  51:44

Yeah. But as you talked us through that journey of your presentation, this is a four step process you could apply to a difficult conversation or presentation. You know, facilitating a discussion in a meeting, you know, the list could go on. Because any of those situations, because I think, here’s a part that I think that I think you’ve mentioned, but I just want to make sure that we sort of mentioned it in that is that the level of fear that someone feels no matter what they’re doing, it’s their level of fear. It’s not, I’ve got to feel the same level of fear as someone else. Like it’s a very unique and personal thing, isn’t it?

Kristen Ulmer  52:26

It is and it isn’t. You know, other people are just really good at pretending they don’t feel fear. Like I think that I think that everyone comes with a basic kind of general comfort zone. Like Alex probably started with a bigger comfort zone than most and other people are, you know, maybe innately born to be more fear avoidant. But I think that pretty much all of us feel fear every moment of every single day in nearly every interaction we have. And there’s no exceptions to that. There’s one woman that had a damaged amygdala. And they were worried she wasn’t going to live for very long, like, imagine an animal that had no fear response, out on a freeway, like they don’t live very long. So no, we’re we’re all, like, if you’re ever wondering if you feel more fear than other people, I don’t think you are. You know, it’s all determined by how we deal with the fear. That makes all the difference in the world.

Murray Guest  53:26

Yeah. I’ve just thought of something. I’m gonna throw this out there. Have you seen the new trailer for the new Dune movie that’s coming out?

Kristen Ulmer  53:35

I haven’t.

Murray Guest  53:37

So I haven’t read the book. But my wife tells me I need to read the book. There’s a statement at the end of the movie, which is fear is the mind killer.

Kristen Ulmer  53:49

The writer of Dune is one of my, I mean, his quotes about fear are my least favorite. Almost.

Murray Guest  53:56

Yeah, and I’m just thinking, and I’m taking this way out of context, but I’m wondering what the intent of that is.

Kristen Ulmer  54:05

It’s just wrapped up in the same message that everybody is saying out there that fear is the enemy. I would modify. I’m really good at modifying quotes. I would modify that quote to say the unwillingness to feel fear is the soul killer. Or let me try it. Let me see. Thinking about fear rather than feeling it will kill your mind. I don’t like that one. 

Murray Guest  54:37

I like the first one. Yeah, that was good. That was good.

Kristen Ulmer  54:43

Yeah.

Murray Guest  54:44

So to wrap this up, I got a couple of last questions to ask and I asked some people this question and you’ve reminded me of the power of getting our message out because you’ve got so much to share. If I gave you a billboard on the side of the freeway that everyone’s going to drive past and see, everyone in the world, all 7 billion of us going to see this billboard. What’s your message on that billboard? Let’s just think we can travel by the way, because right now travel is a bit of a difficult thing, but you know.

Kristen Ulmer  55:25

Resist well, geez, your relationship with fear is the most important relationship of your life. So make sure it’s a great one.

Murray Guest  55:35

Love that. Love that. Yeah, I think, and I heard that from you in Bali, and that has stuck with me. And that I think takes us full circle with what we’ve talked about today around how important that self awareness is and how your relationship is, and we’re not punching our fear in the face. But you know, or that roommate of fear. But yeah, having that healthy relationship. Yeah.

Kristen Ulmer  56:00

And maybe the where we can leave it too because it we’re in times of COVID right now, right now, it’s really, really clear what people’s relationships with fear are. Like the people that ignore fear, ignore the Coronavirus. It’s like, it’s really becoming clear, like I can see everywhere what people’s relationship is with fear, if they’re, you know, resistance like I said, comes in many different forms. And the most common ways that I see people deal with fear or not deal with fear, are, they ignore it, they avoid it, they run away from it. Like one of the current techniques that people do, you know, to deal with anxiety or fear is they exercise a lot, you know, or go do yoga. And they see it as a way to deal with their fear. But I see it as their way for them to continue to not deal with fear, because then it makes their life tolerable, so that they, you know, can get by it’s like they get by another, I actually have a couple of friends that have to exercise like four or five times a day, you know, like four or five hours a day just to be able to sleep at night. They’re just, it’s just, it’s not helping them, it’s actually giving them just a band aid so that they don’t ultimately ever deal with the issue at hand, which is they’re not dealing with their fear in an honest way. And so right now, because it’s scary time, and we have the time like this would be a perfect opportunity to start a fear practice, and learn how to be intimate with your fear, and even just spend a moment to just be honest about how afraid you are of getting the Coronavirus. It’s not even the deaths, but it does incredible damage to your brain and your lungs and your taste buds like and on and on. It’s just, also somebody who’s losing their business that they’ve developed for 30 years, like, it’s a super scary time for them, can they just sit with their fear, instead of trying to drink it away or, like can we all just take a moment now that we have a pause, to learn how to find our fear in our bodies, notice if we’re resisting it, touch that spot and maybe not resist it this time, but embrace it, like give it a hug. Give it some love. If you learn how to love your fear, it’s self love practice, you know at its finest, and then learn how to be intimate with it. It’s like being intimate with the nature of life itself. And then just see what where that river takes you like, just be in flow with it. Until drop by drop by drop, you become a mighty river.

Murray Guest  58:40

Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, for your wisdom, for your your vulnerability of just your journey of understanding and exploring and helping us understand fear. And I’ll make sure there’s a link to your book, The Art of Fear, why conquering fear won’t work and what to do instead. Because it’s a fantastic book, and I’ll make sure there’s a link in that in our notes so people can check that out as well. It’s been so, so inspiring to have this conversation. So thank you Kristen, for your time. I do need to ask you, as this is the inspired energy podcast, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Kristen Ulmer  59:26

Well, if I were to keep on theme, the day that I am no longer interested in saying yes to scary things is the day that I lose my inspiration. It’s like fear is energy in motion. And by choosing to do things that scare me. It creates a lot of energy for me and it inspires me and it helps me expand to my greatest potential. And so the tie in for inspired energy and fear, it’s not at the denial of fear. It’s the inclusion of fear and you’ll find your greatest energy and your greatest inspiration.

Murray Guest  1:00:14

I think that’s going near, well, the top of the list of definitions. Thank you so much. Love it. Love it.

Kristen Ulmer  1:00:20

Last thing. I have a free fear and anxiety assessment on my website KristenUlmer.com. And if people want to start raising their antenna, it’s totally free. It’s 20 really fascinating questions and you can find out what your unique relationship is with fear that you may not be aware of.

Murray Guest  1:00:38

So I’ll make sure there’s a link to that because that is awesome. Also, the book plus also you run ski camps, the art of fear ski camps in Utah. So I hope that with all COVID and what’s happening and moving forward, you’re still getting to do those in the in the near future.

Kristen Ulmer  1:00:58

I am with safety precautions in place, of course.

Murray Guest  1:01:01

Yeah. Great. So I’ll make sure that’s all linked in our show notes for people to check all that out. And honestly, if you’ve got something from this conversation, as you’re listening to this, please make sure you tag Kristen and myself on social media and share that. And if you didn’t get something out of this, you weren’t listening. There was so much gold. What Kristen had to share. So thank you again so much. I really appreciate your time, your knowledge and your openness for all that you are doing to help us reframe and understand fear better.

Kristen Ulmer  1:01:33

Thank you, Murray.

Episode 75 – TyAnn Osborn | Micro-messages & being an ally

In this episode I chat with TyAnn Osborn, a Gallup-certified Strengths coach and trainer, whose passion is creating positive cultures and making the complex, simple. Using Strengths-based training, she transforms workspaces and teams to be more productive, authentic and stronger relationship builders.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Ty, I’m ready to continue the conversation we were just having before we even hit record. I am so, so excited. So I’m actually full of energy thinking about connecting with you today. We were chatting before I hit record about voting. It is October 2020. It’s on, it’s on everywhere right now I can imagine I’m hearing it in my part of the world so in America I’m sure it’s everywhere at the moment. I was actually talking to someone yesterday, they said they’re getting text messages. They’re getting emails, go vote, go vote.

TyAnn Osborn  00:35

It’s crazy. I mean, if you turn on the television, that’s, that’s all there is. If, if anyone is still on Facebook, I got off. That’s all there is, is all the things. And I don’t know if it’s the same where you are Murray, but we have sort of Super Tuesday in November is the big voting day. But leading up to that is early voting. And so it varies by state. And so every state is a little bit different. But there’s this whole early voting period. So for us it just in Texas, it just kicked off this week. But for various other friends of ours, it’s starting about now. Do you have the same thing?

Murray Guest  01:15

So you can do absentee voting and mail in voting in Australia, depending on where you are, you know, you might be away on on the day when we go to the polls. For those American listeners, so a big difference between here and over there is it’s compulsory to vote down here. So if you don’t vote, you can get fined. So once you turn 18, you need to register to vote and you can get that fine. So you have to vote. The second big difference is our voting days, whether it’s local, state or federal elections is on a Saturday.

TyAnn Osborn  01:49

Oh, well, that’s convenient.

Murray Guest  01:50

Yeah, they’re always on a Saturday, which I think makes it easier for everyone to get to the polls as well. So the other thing is, we always seem to have like a charity sausage sandwich at the polling booth. So whenever I smell like barbecued sausages, it’s like it’s time to vote. Do I need to vote, like someone might be cooking sausages in the neighborhood is like, Oh, is it voting time? Because it’s that thing.

TyAnn Osborn  02:15

Once again I think the Aussies are onto something. So you guys make a party of everything. Right? Maybe if we gave away sausage sandwiches we would have better turnout. But you know, it’s kind of funny in America, the right to vote is a very big deal. And so people very much want the right to vote. But in in wanting the freedom, they don’t always exercise the freedom, which is always kind of one of those paradoxes. But what’s interesting right now is we’re having massive turnout in this early voting, we’re having record turnout so far. So we will continue to see if this if this goes you know how this plays out. And it’s kind of interesting, depending on which party you are, you know, affiliated with, one party really likes to have more voter turnout than the other. And which is sort of makes my head explode too. Because you would think everyone should turn out to vote, right?

Murray Guest  03:14

Yeah, so what what they elected to do, to represent the people?

TyAnn Osborn  03:18

No Murray [laughs]. And then let’s make it even more difficult. Let’s put it on a Tuesday, when people are trying to work and then let’s not give people time off to go vote, let’s make it very difficult. And so, so yesterday, the good news, if you vote early, you can go to the the places you can go it’s usually you’re not bound by a certain precinct. Whereas if you go vote on the voting day, you have to go to a very specific place, which is usually not very convenient. And there’s a line you know, down the block and that kind of thing. So, being in Texas in a small town, one of our voting places yesterday was the rodeo arena. So that’s where I went. So standing in line with, you know, on the dirt and everything, and there was this mom in front of me with these two little boys. And one of them who was about five years old, you could tell he wanted to be anywhere else than standing in a line, you know, it’s hot still, and everyone had their mask on and everything. And he was eating a bag of snacks that he promptly turned upside down and all the snacks fell into the dirt.

Murray Guest  04:22

Poor thing. There’s no five second rule in the rodeo. It’s not like you pick them up out of the dirt and eat those.

TyAnn Osborn  04:32

You know, the mom was horrified and the little boy he was he was gonna pick them up out of the dirt and eat them and we were all watching this interaction play out right. And the mom was saying no, no, his name was Waylon. It was really cute and she was like no Waylon don’t don’t do that. And so she grabs them up and she runs and puts them in the in the bin and Waylon just he proceeds to lose it and of course, being the mom now I reached into my bag and I had a granola bar and gave it to him and saved the day. So..

Murray Guest  05:04

It’s amazing, I’m sure, what mums keep in their handbags. It’s like, first aid kid, there’s tissues, there’s granola bars, you know, there’s all in there. It’s ready to go.

TyAnn Osborn  05:16

Whatever you need, we could probably avert nuclear disaster. There’s probably a change of clothes.

Murray Guest  05:23

Before we move on, I just need to check in this lineup of people wanting to vote, how many were wearing cowboy hats? Or had big belt buckles? I’m just picturing this sort of procession there.

TyAnn Osborn  05:37

Should have taken a photo. Obviously, I had my hat on. Well, um, to be fair, you know, even though it’s October, and getting, you know, mid October, it’s still really warm here. And it was kind of unseasonably warm, it was like, still 90 degrees here. So had it been a little cooler, you actually would have seen more jeans with the big belt buckles. So most people were still in shorts, with more of a baseball cap on, as opposed to like the big cowboy hat and boots and jeans.

Murray Guest  06:08

So the picture in my mind, you’ve let me down there.

TyAnn Osborn  06:11

I’m sorry, it was more of a function of heat, rather than anything else. Sorry!

Murray Guest  06:20

Well, I’m glad you voted. I think everyone should get the opportunity to vote, well done for getting it done early. So as you said, you don’t have to, you know, line up for too long when it when it’s time and thanks for sharing. I mean, I hope Waylon’s okay, would’ve been a tough moment, you know, having to line up to vote and dropping snacks as well.

TyAnn Osborn  06:39

Get their dirt snacks, but you know, I had the granola bar, and the significance in me, I wore my ‘I voted’ sticker probably around the rest of the day. Yeah, well, it’s good. And we’ll see what happens. You know, I really hope that people exercise the right that they have in this country and get out there. And, you know.

Murray Guest  07:02

Well, that’s it, that raises a very good point, because unfortunately, there are countries in the world where you can’t vote. And voting is much harder. And there’s, you know, regimes in place. So you’re right, if you have that, that vote, that opportunity, exercise it.

TyAnn Osborn  07:20

You know, one of the things that especially raising two girls, and you know, I’m always big on language in the house, because as our friend, Doug Bacon always says, words matter, right? And so we we like to say instead of ‘I have to’, we like to say ‘I get to’, so I get to vote, because there’s people in the world who are dying literally for the right to vote.

Murray Guest  07:43

Yeah, that’s a really good point.

TyAnn Osborn  07:45

Yeah, so same thing, too. I get to go to school today, because other people in the world don’t get to go to school today.

Murray Guest  07:51

Yeah. And to be honest, I’ve heard that and you’ve reminded me of it from the past, where even framing up your to do list, no matter what you’re doing, as a leader, team member, at home, I get to do the things, I get to have conversations with people, I get to, you know, work on a project, you know, it does change our mindset, doesn’t it?

TyAnn Osborn  08:09

Yeah. And I’m not saying every day is like, I get to ride my unicorn around. I mean, it is work. Right. But just that mental switch can, you know, it’s amazing how just, I think it goes back to kind of that gratitude practice. You know what I do, I get to be in service of other people today, or I get to go to the grocery store today.

Murray Guest  08:31

Yeah, yeah, no, I thank you. And I appreciate you bringing that up. And for anyone listening, think about those ways we describe our day to ourself, because as Ty just said, words matter. And the way that we all train our brain to see our life and the things that are going on. And to be honest, that’s a great segue to what we’re talking about more deeply today. And language, as you said, is important. And words matter. And the reason we are having this conversation, not just because you’re an awesome person, I love chatting to you. And, and I’m thinking we could chat for hours today. But you know, we have a bit of time. So you you had an article on LinkedIn a little while ago around microaggressions. And how you can be an ally. And it really connected with me. I thought it was inspiring. I thought it was vulnerable. I thought it was it was much needed right now in the year of 2020. And what’s been happening, it’s unfortunate it’s needed.

TyAnn Osborn  09:31

Yeah, but thank you so much for reaching out. Muray, that means so much to me that you did that. Thank you.

Murray Guest  09:37

Oh, well, I it touched me and I shared it straightaway with my wife Tammy and she passed on to a few people and I’ve shared it with clients because the courage you showed in sharing some of your experiences over the years, and impact that they made that creates a space for others to also share and understand what that means. So I think to help people understand what we’re talking about when we say micro aggressions, and micro messages, what are we talking about?

TyAnn Osborn  10:09

Well, sure, so to back up a little step, and this was the book and the, the gentleman who kind of got it kicked off for me, his name is Steven Young. And he’s got this book called Micro Messaging. And so I got a chance to meet him a number of years ago. And the just the term micro messaging in and of itself doesn’t have to be negative, but it is all the little things that happen, which basically serves to either reinforce that I’m a part of the club, or I’m not. And these are just little things that say we were not in a global pandemic, and I actually got to see see you in person, right. And if I saw you, say we were at a strengths summit, for example, and if I saw you, I would run up to you, and I would give you a big hug, and you know, there would be all kinds of joy, it would be great. But there might be somebody standing next to you that I didn’t know, who might be thinking, Oh, you know, I didn’t get a hug what, what’s kind of going on… And I might have zero intention of making them feel left out. I mean, it’s nothing I, it’s just because I love you so much. I have no intention of sliding them in the least. But that might be a little micro message that they get, which says ‘I’m not part of’. And so we can think about all these little messages that happen. And they happen from a very young age, and they just kind of get compounded and compounded and compounded. And then you can imagine if you layer on all the different things about sort of gender and race and all the other things on top of it, which serve to reinforce you’re part of the group or you’re not part of the group.

Murray Guest  12:02

Yeah. And so you’re making me think about something I shared with the team was working with earlier this week. And we’re talking about how, as humans, we perceived social threats like physical threats.

TyAnn Osborn  12:14

Absolutely. We’re hardwired that way.

Murray Guest  12:16

Yeah, we’re hardwired that way. So those same parts of the brain light up when I’m socially threatened as I’m physically threatened the fight or flight kicks in, right? And we’re not just talking big threats, it’s those little threats that, I’m thinking about that, and I think the important part, also, with that example, is with zero intent.

TyAnn Osborn  12:37

That’s it. And, and the person who’s on the receiving end, they don’t know. They don’t know your intent, right? So they’re interpreting what’s happening to them. And so they’re they’re reading into that, well, Ty didn’t give me a hug. She must not like me, she must not like me, because I am fill in the blank. She doesn’t like me, because I’m old, young, I’m not her same race, I’m not her gender, whatever it is. And meanwhile, this person literally might not even be in my frame of view. You know.

Murray Guest  13:16

Yeah. And as as meaning making machines.

TyAnn Osborn  13:20

That’s what our human brain wants to do. It wants to create meaning. And so our brain has this gorgeous and sometimes completely unhelpful thing that it does, which is try to connect the dots, right?

Murray Guest  13:36

In a split second too like, it’s an Ohh that’s what that means. I’ve just created a whole story based on that action or those words, it means this.

TyAnn Osborn  13:46

Right. Which is both brilliant and can be amazing and can be also wildly wrong. And so that is kind of the micro messaging. And at its core, it can be very neutral, it can be positive or negative. And then micro aggressions really are taking that to a negative place. And taking that to a place that it is based on those other factors, which really are meant to kind of cut you down a little bit, put you in your place a little bit.

Murray Guest  14:21

Yeah. And I think unfortunately, there are some well, I’ll say some, but unfortunately, many instances where those messages and aggressions can be more conscious.

TyAnn Osborn  14:34

Yeah, for sure. But I mean, all of it to say, for whatever reason, I’m in the group and you’re not and I’d like to remind you of that.

Murray Guest  14:44

Yeah. Do you feel safe, trusted, included, part of the group, or do you not and do you feel excluded? And the impact of that can be, well, actually, what’s your thoughts? What do you think is the impact? And what did you read about there? And what have you experienced? What’s the impact of these messages?

TyAnn Osborn  15:05

Yeah, I’ll tell you my personal impact. And then what the research would say is, I mean, the research says that, you know, people who are victims of this, it’s obviously disproportionate for, you know, women and minorities, and then people who are affected by this are exponentially more likely to have mental health issues, you know, have an increased rates of suicide, you know, obviously, much lower performance at work, you see disparities in pay, I mean, you see all the negative, you know, reactions there. And then when I think about the things that I’ve been through, I think kind of the, the best line I have to sum it up is when I was writing my article, and I was getting some feedback on it from different people I trusted, I would say, a white male peer of mine, who I worked with for a number of years, he said, I had no idea that this was going on, I was just going to work and getting ahead. I had no idea you were going through this. And I was like, that’s it. That’s it, like that’s what’s happening. I was dealing with this. And here’s someone who is absolutely my peer in every way, was dealing with none of this. He was going to work and getting ahead.

Murray Guest  16:30

Is there some resilience that you think you’ve developed through your experiences? So is there some positive positivity you can take from some of those, you know, messaging and aggressions you have experienced over the years?

TyAnn Osborn  16:43

Um yeah, I think so. I mean, I think anytime you go through something like that, you kind of, you know, you got to go through it. And, you know, it makes you, if you come out the other side, it makes you a stronger person, anytime we go through something, right. Any kind of trauma. And I think that was kind of part of the reason for, you know, writing and talking about this stuff was well, you can either become really well, you can be in denial, for sure. You can become just really angry and bitter about it, or what do I do with this? Well, okay, can I put my message out there and see if it helps somebody. And I think that’s, that’s really where the genesis was. So I was having this conversation with my friend, Yolanda, who’s an African American, also human resource professional, somebody who has been my peer, for a number of years, and we have worked closely together, I have huge respect for her. And she and I talk all the time. And so we were talking about all of the different things that have happened in the States, obviously, I mean, it’s gotten worldwide attention. And she said, Where are my white friends? Where, where are my white friends, how come they’re not standing up as my ally? And, you know, Murray, when she said that I like I didn’t know what to do with that.

Murray Guest  18:09

Yeah, wow.

TyAnn Osborn  18:12

I mean, gosh, like, what a huge statement, right? And I was like, man there’s a lot. There’s a lot and like, I didn’t even know where to begin saying, and, but there was a big part of me that was like, I, I don’t I don’t know what to say. And it feels very like, can I say something? Is that okay to say something? Should I say something? Kind of feels like I’m the last person who should say something.

Murray Guest  18:43

Yeah. And from your article and the relationship you have with Yolanda, it sounds to me and tell me if this is what happened. She was able to give you some guidance, she was able to say, Hey, this is what an ally looks like, this is what you can do. This is what will help. Yeah? I think because that’s what maybe instead of us saying, I don’t know – and I say us as white people – but what can I do? Ask the question. How can I help?

TyAnn Osborn  19:09

Yeah. And so that was it. That was it. So you got to crack the door open. So I think a, doing nothing is not an option. It was probably never an option, but it is not an option going forward. And if you don’t know what to do, ask. These are things I’m learning, you know, takes me a while Murray, but these are things I’m learning. If you don’t know what to do, ask what to do. It is never appropriate to say, Well, here’s what I think black people should do. You should never say something like that. That would be incredibly offensive. But what you can say is, here’s what my experience has been, how can I best help you? What would you like from me? How can I show up for you? You can ask questions like that, and I was just listening to a seminar yesterday and the person said, you know, a great thing to say is, I am probably not going to get this right but I would like to try.

Murray Guest  20:12

Yeah. And I love that, I feel that when you say that, and what I feel is, you know, us taking, us as people as humans, when we communicate, taking the time to frame up and be vulnerable. And to provide some context and saying, I don’t know, but I’m willing to try and willing to learn.

TyAnn Osborn  20:31

Yeah. And so for me, I had to ask, you know, what, what does that mean to be your ally? Like, what? What does that look like? And we had to get pretty granular about, does that mean like making a political statement on Facebook? Is that what you mean? Because if so, I have zero comfort in that. Zero. I mean, like, I have zero comfort being on Facebook at all. Like, that is not my love language.

Murray Guest  20:58

That’s, that’s for our next conversation.

TyAnn Osborn  21:00

Right. I mean, if you were Charlotte Blair, God bless you. She is Miss Facebook, right?

Murray Guest  21:06

Yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  21:08

So that is her love language that is not mine. And so I just said, if that’s what being an ally to you means is having this big Facebook, outspoken presence that I am probably always going to let you down in that way. So that doesn’t feel authentic to me. What does feel authentic to me is I can write, I can write, I can write a post, I can talk about my experience. And so we started just having conversations like that. And I offered, I said, I would love for you to write and, and you can have my platform. And so that we’re doing that, she’s putting together a post right now, and I’m gonna put it out on my platform. 

Murray Guest  21:47

I saw that in the last couple of months on Instagram, where some celebrities had let other minority groups, African American women, you know, post on their platform for a period of time, which is fantastic. Like, hey leverage my audience to to support you and get your message out, which is Yeah, so that’s that, I think..

TyAnn Osborn  22:10

So that’s a thing.

Murray Guest  22:11

Yeah. And I, what I’m hearing here is have the conversation because what one person needs and another person needs could be quite different. It’s about seeking to understand and exploring what that is.

TyAnn Osborn  22:22

So that was something and she was saying too like, when, you know, because it just seems like there’s I mean, every day, there’s a new one of these stories coming out about if it’s George Floyd or Briana Taylor, or all of these things, she said, Ask me when those things happen, call me or text me and ask me how I feel. And I thought, Oh, man, it never would have occurred to me Murray to pick up the phone when I hear that stuff on the news. And, and, and then I thought, why wouldn’t it have occurred to me anyway, then I had this whole, like, mental game going on. But I’m like, I’m so glad she said that. Because then I know what she needs. You know?

Murray Guest  23:06

Yeah. And, and again, me hoping to understand here. I can imagine when those absolutely terrible things happen, that there’s some triggering that happens, that people are thinking about previous experiences, or what if that was someone I knew? Or what if that is someone I loved or whatever it might be. All of those things are coming up for them. And it’s about Okay, so I’m here to support you, I’m going to reach out and check.

TyAnn Osborn  23:33

Right? So it’s just like, if we hadn’t had that conversation, I never would have, that just wouldn’t have organically occurred to me to do that. You know? And, and I love her, and she’s a great friend, but that wouldn’t have occurred to me. And so. So all that kind of stuff, you know, was such a great conversation, and I think to this conversation about privilege, and I’ll tell you, and this is gonna sound like the whitest thing to ever say, but I think if you would have told me and I again, like, let’s have these conversations, right? If you would have said, like you were such a privileged person, if you would have said that to me a few years ago, I don’t think I ever, I never would have connected the dots. I wouldn’t have understood what that meant. And so being able to have those conversations now and to see it and think, oh, that’s what that means. And then, okay, what do I do with that?

Murray Guest  24:32

Yeah. And I think, well I think as I don’t know, but I think that there’s more of those conversations and awareness happening this year, which is great, but we are far from having enough of those. I know in our house, Tammy and I have been talking about that a lot this year. What does that look like and just having that awareness and because I think in the past or maybe prior for myself, as well as like our privilege is this living in this mansion with, you know, million dollars of blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff, but it’s not it’s it’s actually do you get opportunity in the easiest way day in day out?

TyAnn Osborn  25:12

Right? I mean, because that’s what it seems to me like, Oh, well your life is so privileged. I’m like, Well, I’m not sitting back here printing cash and you know, just taking a bath in my money all day. I mean, right? So that’s kind of what I was thinking. But so here was an example of something that happened. So I was driving, and I got pulled over. And which doesn’t happen very often. And I was kind of I was a little bit freaked out, like, what’s going on? I wasn’t speeding. I got pulled over. And the police officer said, you have a headlight that’s out. And I wasn’t aware of it. And I thought, Oh, okay. And it wasn’t until that whole interaction was over, Murray, that I thought somebody else could have lost their life because of that interaction. Something that, you know, even at the time, I was more upset just because it was an inconvenience for me. And I was like, Oh, crap, now I’m gonna have to go by the auto parts store. And you know, how dare my headlight go out because now that, you know, it’s an inconvenience for me, I’m gonna have to stop by the auto parts store. And just that for somebody else that could have been a life ending event.

Murray Guest  26:31

Yeah. And I can hear it and I can feel it right now around that simple interaction that no one should be in any situation where their life is at risk, their well being is at risk because of a routine hey your headlights out. But yeah, like you’re you’re exactly saying, unfortunately, that’s what has happened. Yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  26:56

Right. Right. And so being aware of that kind of was like, Oh, that’s privilege. And, and so that was definitely eye opening, and even thinking, you know, just other interactions too, thinking about, like the police. You know, I’ve always felt like the police were there to help me. You know, like, they were the good people. It never in a million years did I ever think like, they weren’t there to help me that they were the bad people, not the good people. And, you know, to start to see some of those interactions through the eyes of some of the things that have happened.

Murray Guest  27:45

Yeah, um, this is a big question I’m going to ask, but do you think there’s a shift happening? I know, there’s lots of talk. But is there a shift happening in the US at the moment to help reset some of the perceptions and relationships that do exist? So that that does get better?

TyAnn Osborn  28:09

I think so. Well, there’s got to be. I mean, I feel it, I definitely feel it. There’s got to be and I think there’s there’s definitely opened up conversations about why, how have the police gotten to where they’ve gotten, like, you know, as a society, we have asked more and more and more and more of the police over time. And so I think there’s been an acknowledgement, like, is this is this right, is the should we have this? Should some of this be in more of almost, you know, a community a social work kind of thing, and actually not in the police per view? And should more, you know, some of those funds be redirected there. So that’s all very real time.

Murray Guest  29:03

Yeah and as an outsider, I’m sure that I don’t fully understand. I know I don’t, but one of the things that I think is, again, I’m framing this up hopefully okay, is it’s very inconsistent between areas in, in different countries. You know, you’re based in the US and I can imagine it’s inconsistent around how the work is done, how it’s funded, who does what, their responsibilities, and there’s some really good areas and and good processes and systems and things in place. And then other areas, it’s just not. So that consistency, I think is a problem. 

TyAnn Osborn  29:44

Welcome to the States. 

Murray Guest  29:47

Yeah, and and Australia, and lots of other countries have their problems as well. And I think that’s where the movement that has happened in the US Black Lives Matter very, very important. It’s bringing awareness to the things that, you know, we’re talking about in our awareness but everyone else and that the good out of that is has been a ripple effect in other parts of the world as well.

TyAnn Osborn  30:14

So yeah, I was gonna ask because again, I feel like news often flows out of America and onto everyone else we don’t always get.

Murray Guest  30:23

You don’t get any outside news in America…

TyAnn Osborn  30:25

No we don’t the media is exceedingly one way in the States. So what is happening? Because you know, you I mean, Australia’s got a long history of people also being marginalized.

Murray Guest  30:39

Yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  30:40

So what is happening?

Murray Guest  30:43

Well, I’ll put my hand up and first say I’m not as educated as I would like to be, or I think I should be around this topic. So I own that. What I do know is, earlier this year, we had protests and we brought some awareness to deaths in custody, as getting some reporting in the in the media, and around the terrible statistics around the percentage of indigenous people that are incarcerated. And also the treatment. However, has anything shifted? Has there been any change in policy? Has there been any improvement in those situations? I don’t think so. I think there was a spike of attention. But we’re not getting the change that we need to have. Australia has a, as you said, like a white people settling here over 200 years ago and thinking, Hey, we found a country and this is what we’re doing. And there was already an existing and the longest population in the world here existing and living and thriving in lots of ways. And there’s a lot that we need to do to bring around that equity and equality. Yeah. That said, there are some good things happening, there are some programs in place but again, inconsistent and not getting enough focus, that’s for sure. Yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  32:17

Well, you know, maybe one of the things to come out of this so bizarre year, I don’t even know what we’re gonna look back and call this year, like, the crazy time or whatever, is, you know, maybe it’ll accelerate some of this stuff. And we’ll be able to be like, yeah, that’s the year we finally were able to, you know, make a step in the right direction.

Murray Guest  32:41

Yeah, like the earth’s obviously spinning consistently for, I don’t think I have any flat earth listeners out there. And maybe we’re just we’re doing a little pause at the end of 2020. Let’s just stop and start spinning again, in a better direction.

TyAnn Osborn  32:57

I vote for that.

Murray Guest  33:03

So something I’ve said to lots of leaders over the years, is every conversation is an opportunity to influence the culture.

TyAnn Osborn  33:10

Absolutely.

Murray Guest  33:13

And I think about this, when we talk and about the things we are talking about, and not just within organizations, within families, within with friends, with any of the communities that we’re a part of. How do you think this statement plays out with what we’re talking about with micro messages?

TyAnn Osborn  33:38

You know, it’s like, when we’re talking with clients, and we are talking about culture with our clients all the time, and I tell them, you know, culture is something it’s living, and it’s breathing, and it’s something you you have, whether you like it or not, and whether it’s what you want or not, and it’s not something you you talk about once a year when you do the employee survey, and it’s not what you think it is, it’s never what you think it is. It’s and so it’s it’s every little thing every day. That’s it and it’s, so every single interaction it’s either putting drops of dye in the water in the good bucket, or in the not so good bucket.

Murray Guest  34:26

I like that. Yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  34:27

And you know, one little drop doesn’t make a difference. It doesn’t, you know, if you have an Olympic sized swimming pool, one little drop in either side doesn’t make a difference but over time, you better believe it makes a difference. And you’re not going to be able to tell which drop made the deciding difference.

Murray Guest  34:45

If you pee in the pool long enough. It’s just gonna be..

TyAnn Osborn  34:50

That’s it. We always told the kids that we had the dye in the pool that if you peed, it turned purple. They still believe that’s true. But yeah so I always tell them, it’s everything you do. So if you come in and you’re having an off day, that that’s decretive, that takes away. And if you’re having an on day, that’s great. That’s a accretive. So it’s everything. It’s everything. So if you’re having a micro aggressive day, guess what? That that’s, that takes away.

Murray Guest  35:21

So here’s a thought, if someone’s listening to this conversation, and you’re thinking, this sounds like so much extra work.

TyAnn Osborn  35:30

Do not be a jerk. And not be an asshole. Maybe we should have a chat. Please call me.

Murray Guest  35:42

Well, but but that ends that conversation, right?

TyAnn Osborn  35:48

No, no, it’s, um, it’s never too late.

Murray Guest  35:51

Yeah, so and the bit I’m thinking about, it’s actually not extra work. You’re right. It’s not turning up. Like, I think you’ve described it pretty well, being an asshole. It’s actually how do I turn up? And just be more considerate of those people around me? It doesn’t take that much extra energy, does it?

TyAnn Osborn  36:11

No, it’s the same amount of energy. Right? You can use it for good, or you can use it for evil. It’s the same amount of energy. And so I think, you know, the first thing Murray I was thinking about was, especially like, when I was writing that article, I had that part at the end, that I really encouraged the leaders to sit down with their teams, and just talk and ask, you know, what micro aggressions are happening? Because there’s something happening. There’s always something happening. And so if you’re the leader, and you’re sitting there right now thinking, nothing’s happening in my company, you are 1,000% wrong. There is something happening. And if you think there’s not, you’re fooling yourself, or you don’t really know what’s going on.

Murray Guest  36:57

Can I ask, did you read Simon Sinek’s book, The Infinite game?

TyAnn Osborn  37:02

I’ve read a lot of his stuff. I don’t know if I’ve made it all the way through that one.

Murray Guest  37:07

Yeah, I could be wrong. I think it’s his most recent book. It’s the most recent of his book I read. And the reason I’m raising it is there’s something that he explores in the book which you are alluding to so strongly, and that is ethical fading.

TyAnn Osborn  37:27

What does he say about that?

Murray Guest  37:28

All he talks about in the finance industry, but also from a cultural perspective, around how our ethics within an organization can fade away bit by bit by bit, and then we get…

TyAnn Osborn  37:39

That’s how Wells Fargo stays in business.

Murray Guest  37:42

And then we get to a point where something and the way I think about it culturally as then, let’s say then, let’s say something happens one day and a manager slaps a woman on the on the backside. And like, hang on, that’s inappropriate, that should you know, we need to, it’s not a microaggression. That’s a macroaggression. Hang on. That is just unacceptable. Right.

TyAnn Osborn  38:05

Right. Right, right.

Murray Guest  38:06

But what I think about is, well, what led up to that point, what was the ethical fading? What where do we drift apart? Where do we drift from the standards of behavior and acceptability that we said that we would work towards to get to that point, right. And what I like that you’re talking about is, as a leader, let’s be proactive. Let’s have those conversations around. Well, what’s happening right now. So we don’t get to any situation we don’t want to ever get to.

TyAnn Osborn  38:31

Right. Well, I think that’s what it’s so great that you said that. And I will look that up, as you know, I read all the time. I think that’s part of what was so interesting about what I wrote is that it was so shocking for so many people. And, you know, one of the things I wrote about was the COO of a division of PepsiCo, at the company Christmas party, he came and put his hand down my dress in front of a big group of people, who laughed about it, and said, Oh, that’s just so and so. So clearly, there had been this erosion over time, and I wasn’t the first person he had put his hand down their dress. And it had become so normalized that not one of them looked and was like, Oh, my gosh, in fact, it was funny.

Murray Guest  39:26

Yeah, I think that, that’s just so and so that’s just the way it is. That’s just the way he shows up. That’s just, that’s just my uncle at Thanksgiving, you know, type thing. However, within organizations, we have a role to play as leaders in the culture that’s created for acceptable and not acceptable behavior.

TyAnn Osborn  39:50

Absolutely. There’s, um, that’s kind of a hallmark of microaggressions is that they are often wrapped up in humor.

Murray Guest  39:59

Yeah, yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  40:00

Often because that’s sort of the social lubricant that makes them easier to swallow, if you will. And there cannot be any sacred cows, you know, you can’t say, Oh, well, that’s that’s Tim, but he’s our general counsel hahaha. You have to have zero tolerance, if that’s the COO or whatever. And what’s interesting is, you know, almost all big companies now, Murray, you know, have kind of appropriate workplace behavior training now, right? I mean, we see this, this is now almost standard. And, you know, they trot the attorneys out and the HR people out and say the right things, and it’s, you know, if frontline manager Steve does something, there’s usually a pretty consistent response, you know, yeah, Steve will be terminated. Okay. Well, if, you know, that’s frontline manager, Steve, but if CEO Tim does something far, far less often is the CEO, you know, dealt with the same way that the frontline manager’s dealt with.

Murray Guest  41:12

Which I think goes back to that consistency. It doesn’t matter what your role is, or the level within an organization, the same expectations apply.

TyAnn Osborn  41:23

Right. So what does that say to the employees then when you’re like, Well, you know, frontline manager did it. And he was immediately eviscerated. We never heard from that guy again. And CEO did it. And everybody laughed about it, and the person who disappeared was the victim. You know?

Murray Guest  41:41

Yeah. Well, and I think that, the more again, that these things are talked about, and brought awareness that around how do we have the conversations around the acceptable? And then let’s be honest, there are some really good leaders out there that are doing a great job in creating cultures of people that are thriving and engaged.

TyAnn Osborn  42:02

Absolutely. So I don’t want people to think, you know, it’s, it’s a horrible place out there. It’s not. And so, you know, the big thing for me, Murray was saying, I recognize that I do have privilege, and I’m just starting to come to grips with what does that mean, you know? And what does it mean to kind of stand up for other people and use my voice? And what kind of platform do I have? And how can I, how can I be an instrument of good? And then thinking that Okay, and if these things have happened to me along the way, and I am, I am white, I am educated, I, you know, I do have all of the advantages. Oh, my gosh, what must be happening to people who do not have the same level of privilege? And, and who are we leaving behind?

Murray Guest  42:58

Yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  42:58

And who’s not able to say anything about it. And, you know, at the end of the day, Murray, I did have agency and that’s kind of a word that we use to say that, you know, I have the ability to pick up my wagon and go somewhere else. And I know that I could go find another job. Right? You know, what, what are they going to do to me, at the end of the day, I can go find another job. Maybe it’ll be inconvenient. Or, you know, what kind of financial impact is it really going to have, you know, I have some money in the bank, I have family that I could move back in with, you know, like, really what’s gonna happen, I’m not gonna be living in a box down by the river, you know, so you kind of think about this, that, really nothing bad is going to happen to me. But what about people who don’t have my same privilege?

Murray Guest  43:51

Yeah, yeah.

TyAnn Osborn  43:53

They can’t just go find another job. They can’t, they don’t have money in the bank. They don’t have family that they could rely on. You know, what are they going to do? So and they have to put up with some asshole putting their hand down their dress.

Murray Guest  44:12

Yeah. And, and the, I’m pausing to think about, again, as seeking to understand around, we don’t know everyone’s situation, and we don’t know what that’s like, and, and what I mean by that, is that the full livelihood and lives of people and what that could be like, and as you said, the the actual ability to have that agency and choice that in itself, isn’t available to minorities of people.

TyAnn Osborn  44:45

Right? And so I, I just figure I’m like, Oh my gosh, and this is what we do for a living, right? We try to, to get in there to as many people as we can and help them see the potential in them, their their lives and themselves, right like, we try to be a light for others. And so, like, Oh my gosh, if I can only, like, just help somebody realize that they have inherent worth and value, and they don’t have to put up with crap like that. And like, you know, so I guess twofold – let me help that person really, you know, it’s going to be okay, and that they, you know, it’s going to be alright, and then help leaders, how can they help, you know, make an organization that helps stamp that stuff out, eliminate it, be a sensitive organization, build a positive culture, you know, so I guess kind of multiple faceted in terms of how can we help organizations and people.

Murray Guest  45:41

Well, the third thing that you did in your article, which, coincidentally, I had done over the last couple of years, and that is reach out to people who had helped me in my career. And I love how you called out by name those peers, colleagues and leaders you’d worked with over the years that were supporters of you. And you acknowledge the the value and the way they’ve been there for you over the years. And I think, and so I did this in the last couple years, I’ve reached out to a couple of leaders that I had back in the 90s, and said, Hey, I wouldn’t be who I am, or where I am, if it wasn’t for you.

TyAnn Osborn  46:21

I love that.

Murray Guest  46:23

And then had the conversation. And I think there’s also something about that, like you’re saying, let’s support each other, let’s understand, let’s be allies, and taking the time out to appreciate and acknowledge those people that have helped you along the way.

TyAnn Osborn  46:40

You know, I love that. And that was important for me to do, because I want, it wasn’t just to be a, you know, I didn’t want it to be just a finger pointing exercise. Because while we all think that can be sort of mighty fun some days, you know, that, that doesn’t really do much at the end of the day, to help, you know, and none of us got where we are by ourselves. And I believe that’s a responsibility that we have is to bring other people along with us. And I also found some of those people that I named and kind of reached out to as a part of the process of writing, didn’t realize what a big impact on me they had had. And so I don’t know if you found the same thing with you.

Murray Guest  47:25

Yeah. I did. And and to be honest, it was one of them was a leader, Trevor, who was really one of my first managers back early 90s. And he’s retired now, semi retired, in his 60s. Trevor, hope you’re in your 60s, sorry. And but when we had the conversation, I had tears in my eyes. He had tears in his eyes, it was very much a real appreciation of bringing to light what he didn’t know. Yeah. And, and you’re right, so no matter who you are, I think taking that time out and acknowledging that because you’re right, we’re all in this together. And partnerships are so important.

TyAnn Osborn  48:07

Well, yeah, so two more things about that. And it wasn’t just female leaders that I called out there was a very strong male leader in there, too, who I just adored and have learned so much from but there was also a leader in there who she was really, really tough on me, but you know, in in a way that I needed to hear when I was really, really young and taught me some good lessons, frankly, about kind of growing up.

Murray Guest  48:32

Yeah, gotcha. And then just very quickly, Trevor, when I reflect back, there was some tough conversations. There were some things I needed to hear from him. I’m like, early 20s.

TyAnn Osborn  48:43

I know, I kind of look back and I’m like, she probably is looking at me going…I, mm mm no. But we all need those people in our lives. And so I think anyway, the whole point of all of this is, we’re better together. And having these conversations, I think, if we do nothing else, like let’s use this as a catalyst to have, start having some open and honest conversations.

Murray Guest  49:07

Well, actually, while I’ve got the air, I’m going to also shout out to Megan and to Paul, a couple of leaders as well. So thank you also, and I have reached out to you over the years, but I just want to make sure I mentioned them as well, so. So Ty, we need to wrap up in a minute. And, again, I can’t thank you enough for your courage of the article that you wrote, which I’m going to ensure we have a link in this podcast for people to go and read themselves. It is about microaggressions, micro messages and how to be an ally for others. It’s had lots of attention and well deserved attention because you’re creating a space for people to share, to learn, to grow and to to be vulnerable and there’s so much power in that and your vulnerability did that. So, again, I thank you so much. I thank you for your friendship. Thank you for your inspiration. And for you being you, your laughter, I just want to hear more of that as well. That’s just, you’ve got an awesome laugh as well.

TyAnn Osborn  50:09

Thank you.

Murray Guest  50:10

A couple of things that are really important. I think, if you do get something out of this conversation, please share it online. Make sure you tag Ty and myself. The article I’m referring to that Ty wrote is on LinkedIn. So please check that out and do comment. As I said, it’s a great article. Additionally, if something in this conversation did trigger you as well make sure you seek some support and have some conversations with people that support you as well. And I’ll make sure that there is suitable links in the podcast notes if there’s people you need to reach out to to have those conversations and get that support as well. Ty, to wrap us up, is there any final message that you’d like to leave people with today?

TyAnn Osborn  50:50

Just thank you Murray for reaching out, obviously, I think you are the embodiment of inspired energy. And it just means so much. I mean, you are doing this right now you are sharing your platform, you know, with me and with others, to keep this kind of stuff alive. So thank you so much.

Murray Guest  51:09

Thank you, Ty, thank you so much. Really appreciate that. And I love that this conversation. We’ll be talking again soon. So look out for the next episode of Murray and Ty chatting about stuff and important conversations. All the best for the rest of 2020. And I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks again.

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Episode 74 – Jim Collison | CliftonStrengths Community Manager Gallup

In this episode I chat with Jim Collison, a powerhouse Talent Acquisition and CliftonStrengths Community Manager at Gallup.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Jim, I am so excited to be catching up with you on the podcast, I have known you for, it must be four years. And I’ve heard your voice dozens, if not hundreds of times. So great to have you on the podcast. How’ve you been? How are you this week? 

Jim Collison  00:18

Muz, great to be with you. Sorry in advance that you had to listen to that voice hundreds of times. But I hope it’s been helpful.

Murray Guest  00:26

Definitely been helpful. You are a leader, obviously, in the strengths industry, in the strengths movement, and helping people really more deeply understand what it means to really focus on what it is that makes them so unique. Now, I want to ask you something that I don’t know the answer to to kick us off. Why strength for you?

Jim Collison  00:51

That’s a good, it’s a super good question. Probably 15 years ago, I was a part of an organization that had been purchased by another organization. And we were the one that got bought. And so we were sitting around because there wasn’t a lot to do you know, in the in between time. So I was kind of looking for some things to do. And I came across that book First Break All The Rules. It had to be I mean, it was a brand new book at the time. And I read through it cover to cover and I went oh my gosh, like, not only do I want to be led this way, I want to lead my family this way. And I took that book kind of as a as a parenting guide, kind of crazy. Well, the follow on to that is Now Discover Your Strengths. And so I looked around the building, of the organization I was part of. It had been an early adopter of strengths. And it had never made it to our department. So I looked around the building and found Now Discover Your Strengths and took the assessment. And for the first time ever, kind of nailed me as an individual. Kind of like, yes!

Murray Guest  01:57

Had you done other assessments before strengths?

Jim Collison  02:03

No I really hadn’t. That had just not been a part of a part of what I done. But after taking that one, I remember taking it home and saying not only do we need to parent this way, but this thing really nailed me. And we got a book for Sarah, my wife. And she took it and I think for the first time I understood our marriage. Well, it’s like, oh, okay, so, you know, 15 years ago, early in the strength journey, you know, never could have predicted that my life would have turned out to be what it is today of podcasting a couple times a week on the subject, it seems like especially here during the pandemic. And so that was the early genesis of it that was this opportunity to, to to see it for real, in how those, I hear this experience from people who take it. And I see them online, I talked to them on Facebook, it and that never gets old because that was that was my experience as well.

Murray Guest  02:58

So when you say you really understood your marriage, and I guess the key part of that is understanding Sarah, is there a partnership or a complementary strengths that happened between you and Sarah in your relationship?

Jim Collison  03:13

We finally understood or at least I finally understood our opposites, right? They always say opposites attract. And for the longest time, I never, I never really understood her belief. And I didn’t know what to call it. But I have, I have so little of that I have so much situational ethics, I have so much fire fighting in the moment, I have so many shades of grey. And she is black and white with belief like belief, discipline, one, two for her. And I just didn’t think that was possible in a person, just to be honest, like I was like, there is no way anybody can be that disciplined, and then have those values and beliefs that are so locked in. And so I doubted it for a lot of years. And I just I just didn’t think it could be true. And in some cases, I kind of fought it. And that was not good for our marriage. And so once I understood I could trust it. It was true. It was what she said it was, well that that changed a lot of things for us. And you know, it’s not like the sun came out and rainbows appeared. And they’re unicorns. We still had lots of work to do. Yeah, but it began the process of some, some healing and some moving forward and some other things we struggle with early in our marriage. It was a significant moment.

Murray Guest  04:30

Yeah, for Tammy and I it was her activator and connectedness versus my responsibility. And we would, I would say get triggered at times. Where early on it’d be like, she would say, let’s go for a holiday. Let’s just go! And I’m like, hang on, hang on. We got to organize, have we balanced it out? Have we worked it out with my ex wife, with the kids? Have we budgeted for this? She goes, No it’s all going to work out. My connectedness says it’s all going to work, let’s just go. And I could feel internally that this this was wrong.

Jim Collison  05:05

You know, when we were the we were the opposite of you guys. I’m like, Hey, let’s just go figure this thing out, right? We’ll be fine. Let’s just go figure it out. Let’s get one step at a time, we’ll figure it out. And she wanted to know all the details, she kind of, she needed that stability she wanted, she needed to know, way ahead of what things were happening. And it was it was difficult for us for sure. I’m sure you felt that as well.

Murray Guest  05:32

Yeah. And I would say that, again, like, similar to your story there for us, it’s been a way to have the conversations without getting emotional, not negative emotion. So just saying a helpful emotional way of really understanding each other. And to help say, oh so that’s the way you see the world. And a link here that I can draw, I’ve ran lots of workshops with teams, and the slide with the Don Clifton quote, which says, Let’s look at what’s right with people not fixate on what’s wrong with them. Honestly, Jim, early on, I would sort of introduce that quote, and just move on. And I then came to this realization, we need to really just talk about what does it mean to make people right. And now I have, in sessions, had half an hour to an hour conversations, not even talking about strengths, how do we make people right? And I think that’s what we brought into our marriage. So is that what you think has also happened in your broader family about how we see each other in a way that we look at each other and making each other right, and you know, those differences and appreciating those? 

Jim Collison  06:45

Yeah that’s a really good question. And we started parenting our children kind of with this mindset of let’s figure out what they’re good at. And then let’s really give them every opportunity to do that. And, you know, again, a good example of, you know, you think so, okay, that’s gonna lead to these perfect kids that are going to do these things, right. And, you know, my oldest, big kid, great football player, and we did everything we could to encourage him in the sport to play. And I remember having a conversation, he could have played the one level, maybe scholarship level, here in the United States pretty easily. And I said, you know, we need to do a few things. This was like his junior year, we’re gonna need to do a few things if you’re going to do that, to put you in a position. He goes, Yeah, I’m not really interested in that. Like, it was, he didn’t think about or he had thought about it in advance. He goes, ah my shoulder hurts, and my knees aren’t very good. I don’t want to be crippled for the rest of my life. And you had this realization, like, Oh, as a parent, I was kind of hoping he would continue to play football and none of the other kids were, were athletically inclined. And so this was going to be, for the most part, the end of our kind of sports with our kids. And, but that didn’t mean I kept… Yeah, he was good at it. But that doesn’t mean I just keep pushing him. You know, like, wow, that’s, that’s too bad for you, you’re gonna do this thing. It also means listening. And saying when they say, Hmm, you know, and he had he had solid reasons. Now, there’s been, you know, there’s been times my kids have said, Yeah, I’m not really interested in school, I’m not going to do my homework. And you go, you don’t have a choice. This is what you need to do. Right? So there’s, there’s differences in that, but Muz we really spent an enormous amount of time trying to figure out, where do their gifts and their talents lie. We’ve had top five taken for all the kids. And in not just what their themes are, but then what are those areas where they invest and they really become strengths. And then how can we encourage more of that, and that’s not perfect, by the way, it’s super, super hard to do. Because they don’t know themselves. And so, but but we have spent, you know, the last 15 years really kind of working on that. My youngest daughter is now a senior in college in in a journalism program. And she’s a great example of you know, she was really good at math. And her math teacher was like, she can go places with math. And she’s like, I hate math. I do not want to do this long term. I want to be a journalist. And so we sent her to a j school at a local college around here, I just dropped her off tonight, that’s got a really great program, and she’s thriving in it. And so you know, if we would have followed maybe even her teacher’s recommendations without really talking to her about it and saying, what are your passions? What are you really good at? She’s great at writing and editing and all those things as well. We would have missed it, you know, and so there’s sometimes I think, too, there’s, realizing what they don’t want to do, even if they have the natural talent and aptitude. Maybe it’ll come back at another time. She recognizes it.

Murray Guest  09:57

Do you think that’s also a difference between being good at something, and something that you really love doing that energizes you and you thrive at.

Jim Collison  10:04

Yeah, right on, I’m a really good test taker, like, I am really good at taking tests, but then that information is gone, you would not want me as your doctor, I’d study for the test, and I’d be able to do it on game day. But then, you know, when it came to the actual, practical application of it, I need to do things over and over and over again, you know, I’m a better talker than I am, you know, in science or in math. So, yeah, I do think there are things we’re good at, that we don’t, you know, those things are good every once in a while, but that’s definitely, you know, maybe not where we want to lean all of our time into, and Muz, I think, let me ask you this, let me reverse, you know, the roles here. I think sometimes those things change over time, as well. In other words, I, I discovered some things I get good at it, I do it for a while. And then I kind of figure like, okay, it’s been a season for me, have you had that experience where you’ve done something well for a while, you really enjoyed it, and then it kind of it changes on you?

Murray Guest  11:03

Yeah, well, I reflect back early in my career, being a quality manager, and I would crunch numbers around quality data, using Excel and Access and, you know, out of a data cube and doing all of that. And honestly, Jim, that does not excite me thinking about doing that at all right now. Put me in front of a group of people, you know, getting a chance to talk to someone like you like we are today, that fills me up, that energizes me. Whereas that and, and to find out Communication is, you know, number three in my top five was not a surprise.

Jim Collison  11:39

It’s very similar. I was a data warehousing engineer at the bank when just before they got bought, and I wrote sql. I wrote code, and I was okay at it. I enjoyed doing it. But it’s not something I’d want to do. I’ve done some project management. Nah, that’s not. It’s okay. I can do it. When I got the opportunity to start podcasting, you know, about 11 years ago now and 10 years with my own program. And then about eight years at Gallup, I found, for now, you know I say that people think that this is a foregone conclusion that I’m going to do this forever. And I’m like, right now, it’s great. I don’t know if it’s gonna last forever. I got to make hay while the sun is shining. So I’m doing as much as I can with it now. But that Woo, Communication, back loaded with some Maximizer in there, the Arranger and Activator, they’re perfect in filling that role, that that window may not always be open. But while it is I am. You know, I’m running through it as fast as I can.

Murray Guest  12:44

I think the fact that there have been, what is it? Six seasons? Eight seasons? Of Called To Coach, it links back to what would sort of alluding to here with strengths that there’s a real depth of understanding. It’s not like, hey, we’ve talked about the top the 34 themes, tick the box.

Jim Collison  13:02

Yeah, six seasons of Theme Thursday. Where that’s literally all we do, is talk about the themes. I joke, when I’m around strengths folks, I always joke and say, you know, we get sometimes we get stuck in the name it, name it and name it, we never actually aim that thing towards something. And then I’m a hypocrite because I go right back to the six years of Theme Thursday, that is literally a name it, name it and name it exercise. But it speaks to the depth, right? Each season kind of has a different focus on this. And so the depth alone allows us to continue to work in that space and do those kinds of things.

Murray Guest  13:39

I want to ask you about your experience in podcasting. So I’ve got way less experience than yourself, but I’m absolutely loving it and getting some lessons. What have been some of the biggest lessons you’ve got just by doing podcasting as a, as a thing that you’ve been doing for so long now?

Jim Collison  13:57

Yeah, the number one thing I learned in this is that it’s my job as a podcaster as a web caster, as a broadcaster, whatever you want to call it, interview or whatever. Is to make other people the big deal. Like when I realize it’s my job to amplify other people’s messages, when it’s my job to make other people look great. When it’s my job to get out of the way and let other people have their time in the sun and to shine. It exploded. The you know, the effectiveness of it exploded, as far as it being the people listening to it and people using it, getting out of the way and letting the guest shine. That’s, that’s my job is to stay out of the way. Now, because I’m there and because I say those crazy things, I am Jim Collison and live from the Gallup studios for whatever, right, whatever we’re doing, I’m associated with it. And so I have some I have some recognition with that and it’s good. It’s just enough for me, but I’m not the expert. Right, it’s my job to find the experts. And to make the experts look great. And I think if anything that I’ve learned in this, that’s what I’ve learned is I’m, I’m, I am a good, I’m a good amplifier. I am a good at, hopefully, I’m good at making other people look great. And if that’s what I’m doing, then I’m happy.

Murray Guest  15:24

Can I add to your greatness, if I may? Because I want to highlight you today. It’s asking really good questions, which actually links to being a really good listener. And, and I can hear in the questions you ask, it’s, again, building off what that person is saying, creating this opportunity for them to to shine, and the question you’re asking is giving them that opportunity to do that. And I love the way you do that.

Jim Collison  15:53

It takes a little bit of practice, though Muz, to be honest, like, you know, people say, how do you do it the way you do it? And I said, what I’ve done it 1500 times, you know, I’ve done it, maybe 2000 times like it. I was just driving home tonight thinking I’m doing another podcast next weekend. And they’re gonna ask me like, how many podcasts have you done, and I was starting to piece them together. I think I’ve done, at first I thought like 1000. And then like, No, I think I’ve got a few more. Not bragging about the number that I’ve done. But just understanding the amount of practice, right, is that talent plus investment. That that that adds to this to this equation, right? Or I think it’s times in you, you just picked up a few things along the way. And so yeah, the ability to hear what people are saying, and then they’ll they’ll clue in to one little thing, and you hang on that for a second and then come back around and allow them to expand that out or know just enough things to kind of keep that conversation going. Know the right questions to ask at the right time. To really to really let them shine. Yeah, it’s practice. Like at the end of the day, it’s just practice.

Murray Guest  17:09

I think there’s a link here to coaching and I remember early on in high performance coaching program I did years and years ago, and that message of it’s all about the coachee, not the coach. And for you I’m hearing it’s all about the person you’re interviewing, not about you.

Jim Collison  17:23

Correct. Yeah. Correct. It’s, it’s really about giving them and setting them up to just to put the best foot forward they can and making them feel comfortable. I think this is okay. So that was one, making a big deal. But in the conversation, the second thing is, how do you make people feel comfortable? You know, and tonight, as we were connecting, you know, you’re like, yeah, you’re kind of relaxed. And I’m like, Well, if I was nervous, that would make you nervous. And we may not have that great of a conversation. I feel like it’s my job as the host. When people come on, even if the world is collapsing around us. I have to say, I got this, like, there’s almost, I tell guests, there’s nothing you can do I can’t fix. So don’t worry about that. Like, don’t think about that. You know, don’t worry about the lining. And don’t worry about your microphone, I’ve got all that, I’ll take care of, I’ve done this so many times. I can do this with my eyes closed or sleeping in some cases, because I do dream about podcasting sometimes. Right, it’s my job to make them feel comfortable.

Murray Guest  18:25

So let’s draw a link to the leaders that listen to my podcast. If I’m a leader, and I want to be better at shining the light on someone, creating opportunities for them to grow, and helping them feel relaxed and confident. What’s the lesson from podcasting of how we do that, that leaders could take on? What’s your tip there?

Jim Collison  18:46

As a leader, you got to give up everything. Because, you know, we go into podcasting thinking this is going to be my show. Yeah, like, or this is going to be my thing. And I have to give that up and say, No, this isn’t about me. This is about the other people I’m having on, this is about what’s going on in their world. And I did give that up. And I think leaders, the really good ones get this naturally is that it’s never about me as a leader and how to advance my career. It’s always about advancing the careers of those around me. And, and rising tides lifts all boats. All ships, right. And so it really to be honest with you, if you’re a leader give up on that anyways, there’s, there’s nothing in that, like, you don’t want that next position, just to be 100% honest with you. You’ve got one right in front of you now. And as we record this, you know, it’s October of 2020. Muz we’re in the middle of a crisis. And we need good leaders to kind of give up on themselves and their career and say, How can I advance the careers of others? What can I do to bring this team together and move them forward? The best thing for your career is maybe giving up on it, then really leading people compassionately.

Murray Guest  20:03

I’m loving that we’re having a three hour conversation today, Jim about ego and letting go of the ego. So let’s do this. But you’re right. And can I just say you draw attention to a crisis, let’s just say we’ve got multiple of those at the moment. There’s lots going on. I actually, it’s funny, I think no matter where you are in your role as a leader in an organization, which which point you’re at, whether you’re a new leader, up and coming leader, or you’re, you know, heading towards the end of your career, and it’s about the legacy, it is about the people and those leaders you create around you to lift. Can I ask, just to peel back the layer one more bit? The letting go – what was that like as a journey? I’m sure that wasn’t just a flick of the switch one afternoon? 

Jim Collison  20:55

No it was kind of something I had to realize, even through parenting, was that the less the agenda was about me, and the more of the agenda was about my kids or, or about my marriage, the better it became, the more effective it was. And, and I actually early on, I managed at Gallup and I don’t know if was the best experience because I hadn’t seen yet that this wasn’t really about me. And so maybe, you know, maybe a decade ago that began to kind of really settle in. And I remember and like you said, it’s not like a switch flipped. But I remember at some point thinking, you know, it’s my job to make other people a big deal. Muz when I started doing that, right, when I realized that, my attitude about people changed. And the way I approach people changed. And I began thinking, I don’t care what’s in it for me. Like, this isn’t about me. I don’t care. In fact, oftentimes I have to be, I push things back. Because people want me in them. And I’m like, No, no, it’s not. It’s not about me. And they’re like, I know but we need you. Can you can you please say yes to this? Because we need you right now. We we just recently launched a new podcast in Portuguese, which is super cool. So we have some partners in Brazil, and I helped them get that going. And as we were talking about the format, they were like, Oh, yeah, and you can I’m like, No, no, no, no, I don’t speak that. We don’t care come speak English. And then we’ll speak Portuguese later. And and I kind of resisted it at first and at one point they asked me, no, we need you. Like, could you please be here and stop fighting us to not be here? And and yeah, no, absolutely. I get it. I get it to that point. So but but helping them, sacrificing for them, helping them. It’s why it’s eight o’clock on a Sunday. And I’m spending time with you. It’s why I produce a Theme Thursday in Japanese at 9:30 on a Tuesday and Wednesday nights. It’s why I’ll stay up till 12 to do a podcast in India. Right? Lots of folks like, you know, my friends at Gallup will be like, Man, it’s really late. I’m like, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

Murray Guest  23:17

So I’m linking there to when you find the thing that is your thing that inspires, lifts you, energizes you, you’re given the chance to be your best. Like you’re saying, it doesn’t matter. Because I can really, I’m in that flow. I’m loving it. How do you balance that out with looking after your own health though, that you’re not, you know, let’s say over playing, over dialing something there where you’re putting yourself, because you got to look after yourself through all that as well. So how do you do that?

Jim Collison  23:47

Yeah, you do. And yeah, I think you have to be intentional about that. Is your anything else. Early in the pandemic, I kind of came up with a micro workout concept where I would spend 10 or 15 minutes seven or eight times a day doing little mini workouts and that actually worked out really well for me. In early in the pandemic we had a lot of time. I had more time. Well, yeah, I had more time, a different schedule. When, in the summer when things started, really summer here in the United States. So June, July, August timeframe, things really got busy at Gallup, like things really, really picked up and I found it was just easier to sit in this chair all day. Right? And I’m confessing to you Muz that the last four months have been dismal in that area. Probably not sleeping as well. Probably not, you know, I put on the COVID-19 as they say, right? That I’m gonna have to lose again at some point. Um, well, so I keep saying to myself, it’s a season, things are just crazy right now. Next Wednesday, I leave for a week of vacation and I’m taking off to get some downtime. And by the way, I’m taking a vacation of five years. So this is a good like, a really good thing to get out. Get beyond for a week. And when I get back it’ll be a little bit cooler outside, it’ll give me an opportunity to work out a little bit more. The trick is it’s not forever, you know, it’s just been for four months.

Murray Guest  25:11

So I, over the past few months in my online programs, have asked leaders and team members, do you want life to go back? Do you want life to go back the way it was pre COVID? And out of I think 200 odd people, it was like, 2 or 3% said yes. So I would like to know, what do you think it’s going to look like post the COVID-19? What do you think is, from what you’re hearing, what you’re feeling, what you’re sensing, what do you think it’s gonna look and feel like?

Jim Collison  25:44

A super great question. I think the rubber band is stretched and it will never really go back all the way to where it was before. It’s kind of this, the way I’m kind of thinking, I don’t think what we’re doing today is sustainable, to be honest. I just this, this craziness, this crazy thing we live in right now. It’s not sustainable. How long? I don’t know, if I could predict those kinds of things I’d be wealthy and not have to work another day in my life. So I can’t. But I think eventually we’ll get back to a hybrid. But certainly, what has changed is everyone’s up their game on remote working, and the ability to connect like this. Muz I’ve been doing this for 10 years now. And up until about eight, the first eight years, it was terrible to get people to do this. The lighting was bad. Their audio is bad. Everything was bad, right? Well, now because of work, they’ve had up their game, man that has made my life a lot easier as a podcaster. I just am like, it’s so much easier to get people to connect. And so I think our communication this way has gotten better. The ramifications of that, I’m not sure what that means. Because now I can be reached easier. You know, you’re reaching me at eight o’clock, 8pm on a Sunday night, I’m okay with that. But what will that mean? I don’t know how that all plays out, if that’s a good thing or a bad thing?

Murray Guest  27:10

Yeah, I think the the conversations around our ways of working with teams is really, really important. So let’s get some alignment and agreement around, well, what does that look like? If I’m a team member, I’m working from home three days a week, and my working hours that meet the needs of the business, but I’ve also got that balance, I’m looking after myself and my family at the same time. So removing assumptions and having those conversations is really important.

Jim Collison  27:37

I’ve actually worked more hours at home, you know, down here, sooner, most days start about 7:30 as opposed to use to starting at 8:30, when I would when I drive in most days finish at 5:30 or 6, which is kind of standard for when I was in the office. So I’m starting a little bit earlier, I’m being a little bit more effective. I am fine. I’m sitting a lot more here. Because I used to at least walk to meetings. Now you just dial up people. I am finding though I’m having more smaller meetings throughout the day. And they’re more effective, because we don’t chit chat this way.

Murray Guest  28:17

See, and can I just say that’s a real challenge for teams. And I think I’d love to get your perspective that I think it’s a Simon Sinek quote, which is, “Teams are built before the meeting starts.” And with Zoom, and whatever online platform you’re using, Microsoft Teams or whatever, it’s like, okay, we’re on, let’s chat about the topic, we’ve got not the the investment in us as human to human connecting. So I think it’s really important we don’t skip that. We bring that into the conversation.

Jim Collison  28:46

Yeah. And I try to actually connect early to be there for anybody else joining early and then have those, try to have those conversations. At Gallup we’re a super social company. So the first five minutes is that kind of connecting anyways. What I found in the past, though, is what we did is we talked, we would do that for 10 minutes, and then we’d have 15 minutes of a meeting and then we’d have 25 minutes after the fact. Okay, the 25 minutes is probably fat that we can cut, just to be 100% honest. Virtually, we just cut those off sooner. And so we’re just we’re more effective that way than we were. I am getting way more work done now than I was pre-pandemic, and it’s more satisfying, just to be honest. They’ve invited us to come back in we have all kinds of measures in place to make sure it’s safe and distancing and masked and all that stuff. But I’m finding I come down here in the morning and I’m like, ah, and not for safety reasons. Not for you know, not for what you think. I’m craving the work that I’m able to do here at home because it’s been so successful over the last six months.

Murray Guest  29:55

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. So I’d love to know for people listening, I’m sure would be intrigued. What’s the best thing about working for Gallup?

Jim Collison  30:07

So many great things about working for Gallup.

Murray Guest  30:10

That’s a good thing.

Jim Collison  30:12

It is, you know, the best thing for me is, is this thing called trust. And in the role that I’m in, over the last, especially the last eight years, I’ve worked with people who just trust me. And there’s nothing I… If you ask me, you know, what’s my greatest need? It is to be trusted. And I don’t know why, that’s crazy. You know, I just I mentioned early in this, my wife has belief and discipline, you think that would play nicely into that, and not as much, but at work, I want to be trusted. And and they have, you know, the folks that I work with, trust me to do what I need to get done. And it’s just, it has been in the freedom and the way that I need to get it done. Listen, it hasn’t come without questions. Like I’ve done some things. And they’ve been like, Hey, where are you going with that? I’ve made mistakes in the process. Don’t get me wrong. But that the trust to continue to push forward is is is paramount to my engagement.

Murray Guest  31:15

And obviously, we’ve got some strong links between high trust organizations and high performance and engagement.

Jim Collison  31:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, right on, I think it’s one of those, you know, of the four needs. I mean, that’s one of the four needs of followers.

Murray Guest  31:30

That’s exactly right.

Jim Collison  31:31

I think you just, for me, I don’t need as much stability. I need I do need a little hope. You know, in that, but man, the trust component of it is huge.

Murray Guest  31:43

Yeah. Can I ask if you feel like someone betrays your trust, is that a triggering thing for you? Is that like, hang on. If you don’t get it is that like, hey, we’ve got to sort something out.

Jim Collison  31:58

Yeah, I go a little sideways. If I’m either questioned or, or my integrity is questioned, or I see somebody going around me for something. And, by the way, they may be justified. You know, I don’t walk on water. Right. I walk in water. So it may be justified, but yeah that’s a definite trigger for me, I go a little sideways, when those kinds of things don’t happen.

Murray Guest  32:24

Is there any links you see between your dominant talents and trust?

Jim Collison  32:29

Oh, that’s a great question. I’m going to get coached, I’m gonna, I’m gonna treat this like some free coaching. This is gonna be pretty, pretty great. You know, I think so the Influence for me is so high, right? Four of five are influencing themes. And, and I’m a self admitted influencer, that’s what I do. It’s what my job is to do. And it’s tough if people don’t trust you, it’s tough for that influence to happen. And so I think there’s a correlation between the two, because I’m not just influencing our strengths coaches or I’m not just influencing folks who purchase Clifton strengths, or I’m not just influencing the community, I’m also influencing Gallup people, like it’s equally important that they trust me and that I that I help them move in directions I think is smart for us. And if they don’t trust me, it’s, you know, I just I dive in, I start, you know, calling. Hey, we got to talk about this thing. So yeah, I think it’s tied to the influencing for sure.

Murray Guest  33:28

Well, I mean, that’s a high trust culture to actually be able to ring someone and say, hang on, we need to talk about this and know that you’re coming from a place of good.

Jim Collison  33:37

Well, I just I had a call last week with a co worker who said to me, You said something and hurt my feelings, I just want to tell you that. Oh, what did I say? Sorry, you know, the 1000s of things I say a day. And it was a great moment of just healing and not to be like, Oh, you know I didn’t mean that. He’s like, I know, I know you didn’t. But it did hurt my feelings. I’m like, I’m sorry. Like, I didn’t intend to go down that path. So those kinds of things Muz in some organizations are cancer. And once it starts, right, then it starts then they start saying things and things are said behind people’s backs. And it starts growing in a team and the team falls apart over one person getting their feelings hurt. So I think it is important, we are able to have that openness. I do work with great people that I could just say, hey, that didn’t feel great when you said that. And they don’t immediately go on the defense. Right?

Murray Guest  34:36

I think, I mean, for people listening, that’s a great example of the measure of the trust in the organization, that you can have those conversations, and they can be challenging and constructive. And people are open to having those conversations.

Jim Collison  34:51

Yeah, yeah, it’s not easy. In the moment, I felt really bad. And when I got done with the call I was, then I start thinking about all the things I’ve said in the last couple of weeks, you know, you’re like, Oh my god, am I doing this to everybody? But no, it’s good.

Murray Guest  35:09

I had a company I was working with a few years back and one of their sayings was no triangles. And I loved it. It was, so Murray says something to Jim. Jim says something to Sarah. And Jim says to Sarah, I didn’t like what Mary said. But so then he goes to Sarah, and Sarah goes to me, and then I go back and we’re forming triangles everywhere, instead of just going back and forward. One on one. And it’s just a simple phrase, I loved it.

Jim Collison  35:36

I mean, to be clear, distrust among, in nature is important, because we won’t survive. If you trusted everything right. In, we are the dominant species on the planet, because we trusted each other at that point. And so I mean, that’s, that’s kind of genetically built into us. I think for some folks, it just needs to be learned, like, they just need to learn it’s gonna be okay. We don’t we don’t hang out in tribes anymore. So there’s not a lot of great opportunities for that to happen in our communications a little separated and now we don’t depend upon each other for some of those basic life and death things anymore, right. And so I think you got to kind of help teams along with that. And I’m not talking about falling backwards off the table, right? I’m talking about real world situations where managers practice that with their teams. Where the manager leads by saying, leading by example, and maybe be saying, Hey, I saw this happen. Let’s talk about it. Or, hey, I’m open enough that if I’ve hurt you, in some way, come tell me and then demonstrate what that looks like. When it actually, you know, the manager doesn’t get defensive. The manager doesn’t get angry. That has to be modeled. It’s hard. It’s the hardest part about being a manager, I think.

Murray Guest  36:55

Yeah. So I’m going back to your point earlier about letting go. It’s not about you. And being approachable, and, and being open and vulnerable and having those conversations. If we’re doing those things we are, you know, let’s say breaking some rules, like you said early on.

Jim Collison  37:14

Yeah, it’s not easy. This is not and it’s not magic. It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t, it doesn’t feel good. You think it’s Oh, yeah. Oh, I’m gonna get there. And it’s gonna be Nirvana. Right? No, this is actually in the midst of these these when you do them, right. It’s actually harder. But it’s better in the long run.

Murray Guest  37:33

Well, I think about that ongoing investment in the relationship you have with Sarah, I have with Tammy, as a leader, it’s very similar with your team. It’s that ongoing investment, having those ongoing conversations and doing that as well.

Jim Collison  37:44

Yeah, you gotta keep practicing.

Murray Guest  37:46

Yeah. So I want to go back to one of your top five, which maybe is quite often misunderstood. So Woo. Number two. When you saw that come out in your report, was that a ‘yeah, that’s a validation. I am not surprised,’ or was that a surprise for you?

Jim Collison  38:06

No it got a rock fest, like a fist pump. I was like, Yes. Because it did. I did. I did agree with all of it. Yeah, this is me. 15 years ago, when I first saw it, I didn’t really understand all the nuances of it. And so, you know, yeah, I’d love to, I love to get to know people. I love to be at the center of the attention of the party. I love to be the one pulling people together. I love you know, I loved all those things about it. What I kind of learned to what kind of learned over the years is that these aren’t, you know, being the life of the party is not a success trait. Like that’s not what Don Clifton meant, there’s some there’s some hints in there. But what he meant was, how can you have influence over people and move them in directions? I think it’s kind of the heart of leadership, in getting people, convincing people. I think it’s a sales theme, to be honest, by convincing people to do something different or to do more of the thing that they’re currently doing. Right, be more productive. The key word in there is ‘do’ – to get people to do – like that’s what it, that’s what we’re trying to get done here. And I think maybe the last five years have I really kind of understood as we’ve been doing all the theme Thursday’s that’s an influencing strength. It’s it’s moving people in directions. And I yeah, I really like that. That casts lots of success on a team. And so I got to deploy it through these webcasts. What we do on the webcast is one big woo exercise. Woo and communication, let’s be honest, and those come together pretty frequently.

Murray Guest  39:47

And and Woo, you could see exist as part of who you were even before? You know, knowing that it was…

Jim Collison  39:55

It’s my name. I’m the poster child. Like it should be me in there, I agree with it all, for sure.

Murray Guest  40:04

If you had to get one of your dominant talents tattooed on your body, to say, this is me, like I and I’ve truly lived breathed this, this is me which one or two would it be?

Jim Collison  40:17

I think in the last two years, I never really understood Maximizer. It just didn’t, and I’ve said this on the on the webcast. So if you’ve heard me say this before, I apologize. But I’ll say it again, because he asked the question. We always say quality, like they demand quality, and I didn’t see any of that in me. I mean, I don’t really care, to be honest. Like I say, Good enough, pretty often. And those kids think it’s like, what’s the deal here? And in my 40s, I started running. And I didn’t just run a 10 k, I mean I ran a few. And then I’m like, no, maybe I can run a half. And then I ran a few of those. And then I could probably do a full and then I did five of those. And as I started reflecting back, that’s a whole Maximizer. Because it’s whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing. Right, I’ve said that it has become my mantra over the last couple of years, in discovering that has been especially in the heart of the pandemic. You know, we did all last year, I did 50 webcasts all last year, I did 50 by June this year. I mean, if that is not an example of whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing during a pandemic, I could turn on, you know, a little help from activator in there. Yeah, I could turn on this woo, and communication and maximize, and using my definition, the crap out of it. And so if there’s anything that I that I value now that I didn’t understand just a few years ago, to be honest, that now I really, really value like, it’s probably my one serious strength. You know, it’s probably the one I think this could take me somewhere if I can just harvest this. And it’ll influence all the rest of them. So Maximizer would be the one for me, again, not a quality thing. I don’t make things better, although sometimes I do. I just do more than anybody else does. I can’t stop at one. You know, I gotta, if we’re gonna do one, we could do 10 or 100.

Murray Guest  42:10

So I’m making the assumption that that also just shows up for you week in week out about how do I make this better? How do I improve on the way I’m doing this?

Jim Collison  42:19

Yeah, if improve equals doing more then Yes. Like, I want to do more, and in most cases, Muz to be honest, they have to be done more efficiently. If I’m going to do more, they have to be more efficient. And so that means doing them better. You have a lot of people. So that all fits in that definition.

Murray Guest  42:36

Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. Um, so partnerships play a big part in your life. You’ve got some strong partnerships, you know, Micah is such a great one. What’s been your insights around partnerships over the years that you can really, you know, just reflect on and share that, that that sort of brought to the surface for you about how powerful partnerships are?

Jim Collison  43:03

Well, there, the power of two is amazing. And, you know, Micah is just the tip of the iceberg on my partnerships at Gallup. And some partnership I had that no one in this community will ever know is Jodi Kennedy. And actually, she was my first partner in recruiting. And Jody and I did some amazing things around internships and high school internships, stuff nobody will ever see except a whole different side of the world, right. And a powerful partner. The, the key was, I think, in those partnerships is I had to be willing to give as much as my partner was going to give and that it wasn’t just going to happen, I needed to cultivate it. And so you know, we’re in a little bit of a down cycle with Theme Thursday right now, because we’re done producing for the year, we have one more coming up, I don’t have as many opportunities to connect with Micah during this. She’s become an important part of just my weekly routine over the last six years of talking to her and getting coaching and the time we spend together and so I was just talking to her late last weekend like you know, we’re gonna have to schedule time like it’s this isn’t gonna just happen we’re gonna have to schedule time to be together to make sure we’re having, we’re fostering this. And the other part about that in the relationships is I had to completely be okay that I had to completely be okay with who she was both with with Sarah and with Micah and with Jodi, the gals in my life that I work with, I don’t just work with women. Dean is another great example of guys that I’ve worked with, Mike McDonald is another one right? I think I can you know, Jeremy Petrosini is another one right? That I had to be willing to give just as much in in in really be you know, not come demanding like you, you need to fill this role in my life. That’s not that’s not how it starts. It needs to be back to the you know, the conversation. How do I make like when when I figured out I need to make Micah a big deal. Our relationship began to grow at that point, because everybody wants to be a big deal. And then she reciprocated that.

Murray Guest  45:07

Yeah, yeah. And it shines through in the banter and the way that you just support each other through those those conversations. 

Jim Collison  45:18

Muz let me let me, before we move on from that, let me also say, I think sometimes that call it karma, the universe or whatever, whatever you want to fill in with that. But I think sometimes things align in a way and you connect with a person in a way, doing a job doing a task, doing a thing, where it just, it’s perfect. And in, you know, my work with Jodi, and my work with Micah, and I worked with Dean, the planets are aligned right now. And, and so those things are working really, really, very, very well. And I think you have to take advantage of that when it does hit. You can’t wait for tomorrow, there’s no manyana on there.

Murray Guest  45:58

Yeah.

Jim Collison  45:58

You need to nail it now. Because you don’t know it’s gonna, you know, you don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, you need to jump in with both feet and give it full attention and really maximize it. Again, there’s my Maximizer. Because it may not come back.

Murray Guest  46:15

Can I just say, I’m a) loving us chatting. And we didn’t know that where this would go. And, and I and I had no hesitation at all about where we’d go and b) the ideas that we’re sharing. You’re bringing up around what people can actually do about this stuff. So what I’m thinking right now is if you’re listening to this conversation, thinking, Okay, where do I take this? Take time out to think about those partnerships you have right now. And how do you actually invest in them even more, so that you can create what Jim’s talking about? And strengthen those partnerships, create the opportunity for us both to be the best that you can be.

Jim Collison  46:56

I think it starts with a simple question. What can I do for you today? Like, so many people are just waiting to hear those words. Like what can I do for you today? How can I help you? And then actually do it. Like it’s not, it’s not rocket science.

Murray Guest  47:12

Yeah.

Jim Collison  47:13

It’s it’s just a matter. It’s hard. Don’t get me wrong. It’s hard. But asking that question. What can I do for you today is super important.

Murray Guest  47:25

Besides the partnerships, and what we’ve talked about today, what’s your biggest reflection on 2020?

Jim Collison  47:39

We’re not through it yet. We have a we have a lot to,

Murray Guest  47:45

You have an election coming up too by the way.

Jim Collison  47:46

I know, I know it, trust me. And I just I just recorded the Gallup podcast, which I’m an executive producer for. We did an interview on Saturday for that. And I was listening to them talk and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, we have so much. We have so much yet to go through the year. Um, I am, well it’s been a disaster in a lot of ways, and a lot of people’s lives have been changed in this. I don’t like to waste any opportunity. And I think for some folks, this is an opportunity, an opportunity to retool, I think for some organizations, this is an opportunity to retool, for many of them, they’re decimated, and they’re gonna have to re hire back. Why not do it on a strengths based basis? Like, why not start doing things right now, if you’re changing jobs, maybe you’re listening to this, and you’re unemployed, and you’re thinking how to find a job, your next job, by the way, it’s a great opportunity to interview them before you go there to go to a strengths-based organization to get what you are looking for, to begin with. And so I don’t want to minimize anybody’s pain and suffering and difficult time at this point. I’m not trying to say, thank goodness for this. I’m not. It’s been a disaster for many people, and I definitely feel for them. Saturday was international Mental Health Day. And it came at a good time, because we all need to check that right. But at the same token, for some folks, this is going to be the opportunity they were waiting for. They were in a crappy job that they just couldn’t leave because they were afraid, or they didn’t want to leave because they were they don’t want to take the risk. Right. And for some organizations, they didn’t deserve to be around. Like, they were doing things terribly. And this shook it out. Right. And so I guess, you know, it’s I don’t want to say look on the bright side of everything, because I don’t think that’s what I’m trying to say here. But there are opportunities in this and as 2020 shakes out, I guess for the leaders that are listening, what kind of new opportunities do you have to make things better? Okay, how do you start 2021 better? What can you do right now, to finish 2020 strong. I think there’s some options for some people there.

Murray Guest  50:01

What I’m thinking about that, too is, you know, what can you do? What’s in your control? What can you take action on right now? There’s a bunch of things happening in the world right now that are out of our control. But what can you do that’s in your control, in your influence, and you take action on those things right now? And I think that’s been highlighted in 2020. I think trust, you mentioned trust and how important that is to you. But also think trust has been heightened and highlighted how important it is. Because we work these different working arrangements and people working different hours and flexibility. That doesn’t work without trust. We’re going to keep building that trust going forward.

Jim Collison  50:35

I totally agree.

Murray Guest  50:38

What’s the future of the strengths movement? In 25 words or less?

Jim Collison  50:43

I think it’s, I think it’s strong. I think it’s strong. And we have so many great, we’re just getting started Muz. Like, we haven’t reached any peak. There’s no like, we’re just getting going and by the way, I think for this next generation, these Gen Z years, or whatever we’re going to call them. They get this, but I think naturally, they get this. We don’t have to fight them. They understand that. Oh, yeah. If I focus on what I’m good at, yeah. So you know, the next generation, the working generation that’s coming in now, the young kids, they get it. And by the way, let’s stop picking on them. Okay, leaders, let’s stop making them feel bad about who they are. They’re the next generation. Let’s pump into them some confidence and stability, some hope, some trust, like, let’s start getting that into them, because they’re the next gen for us. And I think they’re going to be fantastic. My daughter is one of them. And I’m kind of looking forward to watching this generation rocket.

Murray Guest  51:45

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that’s a point that you kick that off with that so important that it’s not like, Hey, we’re there. Let’s tick the box. Because as you said, it’s still going, it’s still growing. There’s a depth that’s just evolving all the time. And, you know, let’s be honest, it’s not just Gallup that’s talking about strengths. You know, the amount of times I hear people saying, Hey, this is a good thing. We should be focusing on what people do at their best.

Jim Collison  52:11

Yeah, yeah. And we just have a system to do it. And it’s a pretty great system, I think. But we’ve got a lot of work to do. And you know, at the end of the day, doesn’t matter if, if I’m an Arranger, Woo, Maximizer, Communication, Activator, but it doesn’t matter if I’m not using it. We got to get people out there focusing on that using that for success.

Murray Guest  52:31

Yeah. 100%. Totally agree. I have a couple of questions to wrap us up in this wonderful conversation, let you get back to your Sunday night of relaxing. First question is, What is your definition of inspired energy?

Jim Collison  52:47

Yeah, you asked that on the form, by the way, I don’t ever relax. That’s just not a part of what I do. So let’s, let’s get that done. You know, and I think that maybe fits into my definition of inspired energy. Like, right now I’m in the zone, I can’t, I don’t want to relax. I don’t, I don’t need to relax. For the most part. Even on this vacation that I mentioned I’m going on earlier, it’s kind of a working vacation, I got some things planned. We’re gonna do some fun stuff. But it’s that energy driven when you’re wholly and completely engaged. Those are big definitions that there’s always, there’s always exceptions, right. But when you’re wholly and completely engaged in something, that energy that comes from that, if you ask me, I’d say that’s inspired energy. That’s how I would I would define it.

Murray Guest  53:30

Yeah, and I can feel that in the way you talk about your work and what this has been like for you, and the levels of productivity and satisfaction that you’re playing in. You know, it’s like, there’s exponential building on that energy, isn’t it? Like, yeah, I’m working, but I’ve got more energy.

Jim Collison  53:51

Exactly. You don’t want to stop. I’d say 530. And I’m like, I need to. I’ve been tracking down coaches around the world who I’ve lost contact with, by email. It’s an I have to find them on LinkedIn. It’s incredibly, it’s just manual. And I am pumping through those. I’ve done 1600 of those Muz over the last month and a half, just grinding through them because it needs to be done. Right. It’s just what I need to find these people that’s inspired right? Yeah, I have to find these people.

Murray Guest  54:18

Love it. Love it. And my friend, where’s the best place for people to connect with you online?

Jim Collison  54:25

Well, that’s always a great question, because I’m all over the place. The greatest place to connect with our strengths related work, is at Gallup.com/cliftonstrengths. And there are tons of resources available there, including all these podcasts that we talked about. The last couple years. They have transcripts associated with them. We have pull quotes in there all kinds of great materials. By the way, there’s great folks like Roy and Mark and Micah who do all that with me, right? Pretty, pretty incredible work that they do behind the scenes there. And so that’s really the best kind of way. If you want to, if you have questions about anything at Gallup, it’s easier to remember coaching@gallup.com, if you want to, they’ll route that to me if that’s what needs to go there. But that’s a lot easier than remembering my email address. So coaching@gallup.com.

Murray Guest  55:11

Fantastic. And I’ll make sure there’s links to the Gallup website and to that email, but also the Facebook group for anyone that’s interested in Strengths, if they’re not already a member, because it is such a healthy, generous community as well. So I’m gonna make a shout out to that community as well. Jim, I just want to take a moment to also celebrate, acknowledge the work that you do do. That constant that you have been for all those seasons of Call to Coach and everything else that you do. It’s really the podcast. And also for that community I just mentioned, where you are the backbone. And the head, often around just steering that supporting that creating a space for people to share, to learn to grow to support, and this passion you have to support others, and to lift them up. And to do that, and the strength space movement wouldn’t be where it’s at without that consistent energy and focus you give it and as someone that has been the receiver of that, I can’t thank you enough. Have a beer with you next time in Omaha whenever that is, but on on behalf of the community I want to thank you so much for all that you do.

Jim Collison  56:29

Muz those are very, very kind words. And I appreciate that. And thanks just for the just for being a solid partner out there with us. I couldn’t do this if I was shouting from the mountaintop, and there weren’t people doing things like creating their own podcast. It couldn’t be just me. And so thank you for the work that you do to continue to help get the word out and to coach people in the work that you do and workshops and in the coaching. So thank you.

Murray Guest  57:00

Wonderful, Jim, and I’ve loved our conversation on this podcast. It’s been fantastic, so much gold in this conversation today. Really appreciate it. And certainly, if anyone’s listening, you got something out of this conversation, which I’m sure you did. Please make sure you share it online, tag Jim and myself and also use the hashtag inspired energy. And if you have any questions, as Jim said, make sure you flick those through to coaching@gallup.com. And he will get back to you or someone from the Gallup team will as well. Jim all the best for the remainder of a productive healthy, happy 2020. And I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

Jim Collison  57:38

Yeah you as well. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Murray Guest  57:41

Thank you.

​

Episode 73 – Paul Dunlop | Lean, Leadership and LEGO!

In this episode I chat with Paul Dunlop, who works with organizations to implement change and improvement through lean thinking and methodologies.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Paul, welcome to the podcast, looking forward to connecting. We were just chatting before the recording and I love your energy. I love what you bring. How’s life? 

Paul Dunlop  00:13

Life is good, Murray, it’s great to be here. And thank you for having me along. Pretty excited to talk about a bit of Lego. But um, yeah, life is good, life is different with current circumstances. But yes, it’s great. I think I’ve been able to, you know, use that horrible word pivot. But do things a little bit differently and think a bit differently with some of the, I guess the time I’ve had? 

Murray Guest  00:41

Yeah, there’s some new words that have come out this year isn’t there, there’s pivot and pandemic, while they’re not new, they’re just getting used so much at the moment. Hopefully, we’re bringing some different words in 2021. 

Paul Dunlop  00:54

Absolutely, that don’t start with P. 

Murray Guest  00:58

Well, you’ve got a whole bunch of P-words that you, you know, those pillars that you use, or the companies you work with, they’re people, process, play and profit. And I want to talk a bit about that, and the work you do with different organizations. But one thing that really attracted me to what you do was just this phrase of chaos to calm. Tell me where that came from.

Paul Dunlop  01:25

Um, I guess that, well, it funnily enough, it came from my clients’ mouths, not mine. So what I experienced was client by client, organization by organization, that these are the words that they would use, this would be what the organization would feel like when you when you walked in. So being I guess, a lean person, what I tend to experience is chaos in the process, that chaos, you know, people working very, very hard to achieve the day to day outcomes. And like I say, you can you can literally see it play out you can feel it, there’s a lot of emotion, you know, the environments are very reactive, there’s a lot of firefighting going on, a lot of short term thinking. So that’s that chaos. And I’ll literally get phone calls these days. And people say I’m in bloody chaos I need help Paul, and that’s what it is. Where is, you know, the other end of the spectrum, the calm, is what a, you know, again, to me what a real lean organization feels like whether we’re using, you know, the lean word or not. It doesn’t feel like much is happening. And people have time and space to actually think above the day to day process and be more strategic or think about improving their process or their culture or their problems, whatever it might be. So yeah, that was an easy tagline to get.

Murray Guest  03:00

Yeah, and I love that, as you said, it’s come from those interactions and conversations with your clients. And I can imagine, you know, the the shift that lean helps bring from chaos to calm. What’s your 25 words or less definition of lean for those people that may not know much about it? 

Paul Dunlop  03:22

It’s a very good question. 

Murray Guest  03:25

I want a lean answer about lean.

Paul Dunlop  03:27

Yeah. I might struggle with that. Yeah, look, lean. I think lean means many things to many people, depending on your experience. I think from the outside looking in, many people see lean as a, perhaps a bit of a quick fix. It’s more to do with cost cutting and ruthless efficiency and all of those things. So there’s a lot of misconceptions around it, which often when I’m engaging with, with clients, and with people, it’s dispelling those myths, and it’s almost talking about more what lean isn’t than what it actually is. So for me, lean is a, it is a way of thinking. Full stop. So there’s lots of tools and there’s lots of buzzwords, and all of those sorts of things that surround lean. But essentially lane is about creating engagement in your organization. It’s about creating a culture of learning and a culture of problem solving. And it’s about creating, you know, a leadership culture where leaders are servants and leaders are supporting their teams to achieve the outcomes. So you know, there is a set of tried and tested tools that sit around lean, but though, those tools are really just there to enable the habits which enable the behavior which enables the cultural change over time.

Murray Guest  05:06

Yeah, and I think when you talk about resetting some of those misconceptions about Lean, what I’ve heard in the past is that people have felt like lean was so focused on the processes and the systems and not the people. And that’s developed some of those negative or hindering perceptions around lean. And my understanding, and I know from the work that you do, there is very much a people-focus on those improvements. And as you said, changing the culture.

Paul Dunlop  05:32

Yeah, absolutely. All too often I think it can become like any change process, very top down, and that can get lost in translation. To me, lean is about that ownership and empowerment, and it disengaged, actually disengages people rather than engages. So you see versions where it’s, it is top down, sometimes it’s bottom up, it’s almost kind of revolution from the front lines. But that can only get so far without, you know, the support from, you know, middle and senior leadership. So it’s finding that balance and getting that harmony, which is often there’s a bit of tension in getting that right. But when it clicks it’s extremely powerful. 

Murray Guest  06:22

Oh, yeah. And it’s funny, as we’re talking, you’re taking me back, geez, nearly 30 years, must be 25-26 years when I first started in fmcg, in the food industry, and, you know, just in time and GMP and 5S, a lot of those tools were just the way of working in fmcg. And for me as like, as a first real job back then in my early 20s, I thought all companies worked like this. I couldn’t be more wrong.

Paul Dunlop  06:57

No, it’s interesting. Yeah certainly locally as well, like I see people coming out of the automotive industry who have been at Toyota or Ford or wherever, and they really, really struggle. Because that’s all they know. They’ve been in that environment for such a long time. And it’s very, very challenging for those people to shift into, let’s say the normal, you know, particularly in manufacturing, mindset, which is, you know, somewhat of that that chaos mentality. So, yeah, you see all parts of the spectrum.

Murray Guest  07:37

Can I ask, you mention change. Where do you think change falls down and doesn’t lock in sustainably in organizations? And lean obviously is one of those change initiatives that often, unfortunately, that happens with.

Paul Dunlop  07:55

I probably come back to two key points – it’s common sense, and it’s discipline. And, look, I have a, I’m a simple guy, I have a very simple approach to these things. But for me, I see change processes sometimes, again, we’ve spoken about the top down. So it’s about making that change, I guess, accessible and easy to understand, there has to be a clear sense of why, you know, why are we doing this? What are the objectives? So we need clearly expressed and clearly articulated objectives around that. I think every organization has the best intentions, they, one way or another, they acknowledge where they are, whether they do something about it or not is a different thing. But the intention to be better and do better is always there. But it is just the ability to execute on that consistently. So again, a lot of lean programs are talking about Kaizen events and those sorts of things. And they’re, they’re sort of once off and I heard a lean guy, Mike Robbo, said it’s four days and a pizza party. And these, I guess, change and transformation and building habits, that can’t happen by a once off. It’s not, you know, if you’re losing weight or getting fit, you know, it’s not just crash diets and things like that. It has to be building a structure and the habits and daily routines to actually make that change. And the change is always incremental. We, we have quick wins, sure, there’s low hanging fruit all the time, but that that change has to be, you know, small steps, everybody making small steps over time. And a lot of organizations I think, really struggle with that concept. Because, you know, we’re human beings, we’re impatient. We want those quick things happening. We want it to be easy. Change is hard, change is really hard. It’s difficult, it’s awkward. It’s very uncomfortable at times, it’s confronting, particularly for leaders to have to look in the mirror. And that’s I think a lot of where my more difficult conversations come in the transformation process is actually showing leaders that well, perhaps presenting them with some self awareness. There was a few sort of Gordon Ramsay moments. And taking them on that journey of, well, actually, it can be different, and it should be different. And that different for you led to a much better place for you personally, and a much better place for your team. So, a bit of a long winded answer to that question. But I think for me the change process is just daily execution. And, and sticking to those structures such as, you know, your daily meetings and visual boards and, you know, Daily Standard Work and Five S, all of those sorts of things, even if it’s, you know, at the start small commitments that you actually execute on those commitments.

Murray Guest  11:17

It is interesting, isn’t it, that as humans we approach change outside of work with a level of perseverance and commitment. Whether that as you said, fitness or health goal or saving money or whatever it might be, financial, yet in business we seem to think tick the box and get it done overnight. But that same perseverance and discipline is needed for that change and to a) see the benefits and b) to lock in as a habit. What’s the shift you reckon for leaders to start to apply that internally in the business, like if you’ve got someone that’s like, oh no we just need to do it, are you Gordon Ramsay yelling at them? How are we getting them to change that mindset?

Paul Dunlop  12:03

*laughs* Maybe. Look again, I think it’s so it’s developing that emotional, like particularly for leaders, I think it’s developing that emotional connection. I work with a lot of middle managers and senior leaders who are, you know, career in manufacturing, let’s say career production managers or whatnot, they’ve based their success on a particular approach and got to that point. So those habits and behaviors in their mind has led to success, but we start to look at what’s going on in the in the current state, and they’re busy, they’re working very long hours, they’re fatigued, they’re, you know, literally, you know, can’t concentrate, they can’t be present. And that’s just in the workplace. And then you start to discuss what’s going on outside of work and their family life’s suffering, they’re not spending enough time with their kids, they’re not eating well, they’re unhealthy. So on and so forth. So it’s just about, I think, for me, I’ll spend a time painting that picture. And starting to, you know, one of the first exercises I’ll do with a leader is to do leader standard work. So okay, what are your must do, should do, like to do, nice to do type activities? And let’s really understand, are you playing in your lane? What is your clear role and responsibility? What should you be doing versus what are you actually doing?

Murray Guest  13:44

And can I just say, a) I was looking at online recently about your Leader Standard Work tool, and I just love that approach. And b) what’s popping in my head is just even asking those questions, I’m sure just unravels this awareness of well I actually don’t even know what I’m meant to be doing.

Paul Dunlop  14:01

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it’s just that getting clarity in the environment and clarity at all levels of the environment. But when we look at what leaders are doing, again, I have this conversation a lot is that we look at, we have a problem with leadership in that we promote people who are technically good at their jobs. And just because you’re good at your job, we assume that you’re good at managing people who are good at the job. And we forget that there’s a big transition between the technical aptitude and running a team of people and having those soft skills. So people tend to, and I think we are getting better. But there’s still a long way to go in terms of equipping those aspiring leaders from the frontlines right through with those tools and those structures to support them to be successful leaders. So what tends to happen is that those middle managers and senior leaders, they gravitate back towards the happy place, the comfort zone of their technical skill, and they crowd the lower levels of the organization. That’s where our micro managers, and that’s where a lot of the time gets eaten up. Because it’s in that day to day hustle and bustle. And there’s almost an addiction there too. The hero mentality.

Murray Guest  15:26

Yeah. And I, you know, you shared online recently about decluttering your time, and I’m just thinking about that video and your insights to that around bringing again, as you said, the self awareness of what’s taking up my time, what’s filling my day? And is it the best use of my time as a leader? And asking, who is the best person to do this other than me? Or the system, or whatever else it is? Can I ask, there was an article that HBR had, I think it was last year, I could be wrong, might’ve been the year before. And I’ve shared it with a few clients. And some of them they’ve, they’ve actually been a little bit taken aback. And I’ll tell you, the title of the article was, If I’m so successful, why am I working 70 hours a week. And in the article it does talk about some of those habits and behaviors, but also even the ego that comes in about being the hero and the rescuer, and filling up your day doing all that stuff. That’s not the best use of the leader’s time.

Paul Dunlop  16:32

Yeah. Yeah. And again, that’s the conversations I start to have, is just calling bullshit on that. In your mind, you think you’re doing this but reality’s very different. You know, you’re bemoaning the fact that your people don’t want to take responsibility or ownership or whatever, or they can’t, because you’re not letting go.

Murray Guest  16:56

So and what I’m thinking here is that awareness of the chaos that I’m in, how much of that I’m creating myself as a leader, as opposed to it’s everyone else’s bloody fault. So if I want to go from chaos to calm, I gotta have my level of ownership and change.

Paul Dunlop  17:12

Yeah. It’s, you know, I say it’s like going to AA, you’ve got to acknowledge that there’s a problem first. You’ve got to take you know, listen to Jocko Willink’s podcasts are taking that ultimate responsibility. It’s, you know, forget blaming the process, or your tools or your people or whatever, it’s all on you. And once you can accept that, and you’re good with that, then we can start moving forward. So, you know, it’s the easy bit of the change process for me is the front lines. I’ll just go out there and go, Hey, what’s going on? And they go blah. One, someone’s actually asked me a question and shows some air about what’s happening. And they’re prepared to listen to me and maybe do something about it. Okay, cool. All right. And let’s go and talk to the leaders and away we go.

Murray Guest  18:11

Can I ask if it’s okay for you to share a story of or an example of one of the companies or teams you have worked with where you’ve seen that shift from chaos to calm and what’s been the impact of that?

Paul Dunlop  18:26

Yes, I won’t mention the client name but a building products manufacturer in Melbourne. So the leader, the production manager is the quintessential chaos agent and I guess when I speak and I share his story with many clients over the last couple of years is that yeah, working 70 hours a week. Absolutely burnt out. Literally when I first started meeting with this guy he would be late to the meetings and that’s just a no no with me. Number one KPI.

Murray Guest  19:13

Just for clarity everyone, Paul was early to our meeting today.

Paul Dunlop  19:18

Yeah, so I was but yeah, and you know, he would be sitting there, the phone would be ringing and just all over the place. He would be everywhere but with me in the room. So we had a few sort of niggly conversations let’s say, but he was able to start to acknowledge that okay, things for him are broken. And we’d go out into the business and yeah, literally chaos, a lot of again in a manufacturing environment, but just a lot of defects in the workplace. A lot of work in process, very messy, disorganized. There had been a couple of attempts of communication and visual management in the workplace but had fallen over. So there was these kind of, and I do see this a lot of, you know, the relics of Lean. So we’ve had a go at Lean, hasn’t worked, not for us.

Murray Guest  20:14

I’ve had a few clients say to me, we’ve done 2S. 

Paul Dunlop  20:17

Yeah. And it’s interesting, a lot of clients, and that’s a whole other topic, but a lot of clients that think they’re doing 5S or, you know, 1 or 2S. But yeah, so this manufacturer, again, what I see is the culture and the performance is always a reflection of the leadership and where the leaders are at. And again, this guy had grown up in the business, 20 year veteran of the process, knew the process intimately, but couldn’t let go. He was just very much out in the day to day, like I said, when when you’ve got managers at that level, their heart and soul is very much out there in the front lines, it just completely crowds a space and people step back. So literally, I would see that, you know, he’d go on the shop floor, he’d be literally, you know, eyeballing and, you know, yelling at people pretty aggressive, because of his internal world. And, you know, as we’ve started to go through and highlight a lot of those things, one of the first things I started with with him, was his Leader Standard Work and starting to challenge what he was doing, how much time was being dedicated, you know, 70 hours, very much a case of, do you really think after 45 hours a week, you’re effective? You know, what are you doing? And, again, his wife was not that happy with the version of him that she did see, you know, he was tired, emotional, all those sorts of things. So, over I think it’s been about 18 months now, I actually had a long conversation with him over the phone yesterday, and he’s moved to a place now where, you know, he’s got the three layers of management underneath him, he’s let go. He’s letting his team leaders and supervisors, his production managers do what they need to do, they’ve now implemented daily communication meetings, I’ve done a power of work around 5S, and the place just looks completely different. Completely different. He’s now going through a period where he, he said, Paul, I’m uncomfortable now because I don’t know what to do with myself. Because I’ve created so much space. 

Murray Guest  22:45

Isn’t that a great place for him to be in though?

Paul Dunlop  22:48

Yeah. And it’s amazing. It’s a great, you know, let’s bring that on. That’s great discomfort to have. And he’s now going okay, well, I see all this opportunity now to, to grow and develop. I have already grown and developed to get to this point. So not everyone can do that. And that’s the discussion I’ve had with him. It’s kind of, you know, being with him along this journey of, you know, self development and growth internally as a leader, but he has been prepared to do that. And he’s got a long way to go. But I say to him, Well, I’m, I’m on the same journey. I’m still learning, I’m still growing, I’m still making mistakes. That’s okay. And that discomfort is where the growth is going to happen.

Murray Guest  23:40

I also wonder about the loss of identity that people go through that work with you, of what they were holding on to which made them who they are, up until that point. And letting that go and creating that new identity. And even for this guy, perhaps where he’s at, a new legacy and a new leadership shadow that he’s casting.

Paul Dunlop  24:03

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I’ve been there probably been there multiple times in not only my professional life, in my, in my personal life, as well. And that is a big part of it. When I talk about that letting go, there’s lots of different types of letting go. I see leadership is something that’s very paternal. And you know, as you watch your kids grow you’re letting go, it’s hard not to be that person that’s doing it for them and then all of a sudden, you’re having to let that go and that changes who you are. So for me, you know, particularly in that process, it’s going from, I guess that almost autocratic type leader to a servant leader and finding the feel good and finding the value in actually helping other people and watching other people grow and develop. And it’s amazing when that starts to happen. And, you know, he’s seen these people almost come from nowhere. And there’s one guy in this particular factory who doesn’t speak, he’s Vietnamese, he’s really working hard on his English but doesn’t speak a lot of English. But he has just been an absolute 5S powerhouse, this guy is just, you know, taking extra time in his work hours to paint lines on the floor and tidy his work area and standardize at all. And it’s amazing. It’s really powerful stuff.

Murray Guest  25:44

I’m thinking about that how that leader has changed his approach through working with you. And that’s created space for other people to learn and grow and step into. And the ripple effect, honestly mate it’s hard to measure, isn’t it? Because it’s not just now, there’s a future ripple effect as well.

Paul Dunlop  26:02

Yeah. And that just keeps, keeps growing. Because other people now are looking at these sort of early adopters, let’s say. And, you know, we’re well and truly through that phase, but other people have seen that and just sort of ridden on the coattails, so to speak. The frontline and middle shop floor management now are owning projects and scoping projects. And so it just grows legs. And that’s where, like I say creating that that space and then actually becoming a leader who grows leaders. And that that’s probably my approach to this and say, well I don’t really care so much about the product or the service. I’m interested in you growing people and developing people. Your KPIs as a leader is how many leaders do you grow and develop? How many leaders do you make? That don’t need to be formal leaders, you know, the guy doing the 5S, he’s a leader.

Murray Guest  27:02

Yeah. I think that’s such a great measure, isn’t it to know who is, and retaining talent, retaining those natural leaders, giving them the opportunity to lead a change, lead an implementation, or lead a team, and they stay with the business. And I’m excited, I look forward to looking back with you in six months time and seeing where this guy’s at. Because as you said, he’s now in this discomfort. Is this stepping into the unknown about well, what’s next for him as well?

Paul Dunlop  27:31

Yeah, and oh, now he’s in that space. And I can keep the tension on and keep sort of, you know, not pushing, but holding him accountable. And that’s almost I think, in my role, that’s what I become is a bit of an accountability measure. I’m there to, you know, give you a cuddle when you need it. But it’s also about continuing to push and to challenge to allow people to grow. And, you know, as far as they want to grow.

Murray Guest  28:04

Yeah. Just want to change the topic a little, not much, just a touch, chaos to calm in 2020. Tell me what you’ve learned or experienced in 2020. With all that we’ve been experiencing, and what you’ve seen, either for yourself or those clients, considering this, this experience we’ve had?

Paul Dunlop  28:35

Yeah. Interesting question. I mean, a lot of that is, I guess, my personal reflections from a consultant point of view. So I’ve been consulting for three years in my own business. And as a consultant, I would have worked pretty much every day in those three years, which is quite an achievement. But within, I think, three days and a few phone calls, I lost probably 50% of my business off the bat. So from my own experience, it’s been very challenging, I’ll say, it’s probably after the kind of initial oh shit type moments, then it was, okay, you know, my own discomfort, and what am I going to do? What am I going to do differently? How am I going to use the time that’s available to me? So that’s been interesting. I’ve been very much the probably the tradesman who never does any work at home. So it’s been good for me to actually look at my business and also spend some time working on you know, my own professional and personal development. So, you know, that that’s kind of how I’ve looked at that. I had early conversations with them. I said, Well, I don’t want to come out the other side, however long this lasts, I don’t want to come out the other side of that feeling like I’ve wasted that time. This is precious time, whether it’s given me more time, I’ve got three kids at home. And it’s given me, you know, a lot of valuable time at home with them and my wife, and it’s just time we never have had outside of, you know, having a holiday or, or whatever. So, that side of things. For my clients, it’s been extremely challenging, particularly in the manufacturing space. So I have a manufacturing client base, I have some local government and not for profit and some other client types or industry types. So yeah, particularly in manufacturing has been really challenging people just getting one their heads around how they manage, you know, from the health and safety point of view, the COVID requirements, how they mitigate the risk in their business, obviously, how the external market conditions have affected them. I’d say some of my clients have never been busier. So they’ve had the challenge of keeping up with the demand in the current environment. Others have, it’s been a bit up and down. And they’ve had to, again, manage those those issues, perhaps losing some employees, often quite valued employees. And that’s been difficult. So there’s been a whole range of different challenges for them. Obviously, the way I support them has been more remote and virtual. At the same time, that’s, you know, to be honest, I would reckon I’d been on zoom half a dozen times, prior to March. And now it’s three, four times a day. And it’s just, it’s provided a different way of doing business. And I’ve enjoyed that, I think the clients have got a lot of benefit out of it, too. It’s made me much more accessible to support them. So yeah, there’s been a lot of difference. But I think everything for me personally, it’s, it’s enriched a lot of things for me, it’s, you know, I’ve picked up international clients through this period now, and oh, this is doable. So yeah, it’s been probably positive.

Murray Guest  32:29

I have very similar path to yourself this year, in regards to my clients, the work I do, and how it’s been very much shifting to online. And also different clients have been impacted. But I’m thinking as you’re talking through your clients, and talk about influencing change, leadership, where’s the best value of my time, removing waste, all those are so valid and important right now, aren’t they? And that’s what’s going to help people get through that, you know, those because the change of a COVID, or a change in industry or a change in you know, a market, they’re all, you know, can put them all in the same bucket, and they’re all going to impact the company and how they respond to that through the things you do, I can see you’re going to help them.

Paul Dunlop  33:14

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the, you know, the client I was talking about before, you know, the change in their thinking has positioned them very, very well for what they had to deal with. And to me, they, they were the gold standard of, you know, how an organization responded to the circumstances, you know, they had a case recently, as well and managed that. And, you know, that obviously, there’s some mandatory reporting and whatnot, goes on. And, you know, the external bodies that came in, were really, really pleased with the way they had managed. So, you know, that that’s an example. But many organizations, I think, in this situation will be wishing that they had, or, you know, thought a little more about, you know, lean or agile or whatever it might be, to put themselves in a position to deal with this. You know, because again, lean really isn’t that different to the design thinking methodology, innovation, you know, PDCA is that’s all it is. It’s about experimentation and throwing ideas around and finding a way forward. So, again, it’s not those businesses that at least are thinking in that way. It’s definitely positioned them in a, you know, put them in a position of strength, or at least it’s given them I think, options.

Murray Guest  34:50

Yeah, and I when we’re going through the conversation earlier about decluttering. It’s hard to see the opportunities for improvement if there is all that crap. There is all that stuff that’s coming up. If you are Marie Kondo in your business, let’s just say, do you refer to Marie Kondo sometimes, Paul?

Paul Dunlop  35:09

No. 

Murray Guest  35:11

You know what I’m talking about, I assume? 

Paul Dunlop  35:13

I actually don’t. 

Murray Guest  35:15

Marie Kondo is the lady that helps people declutter their house. 

Paul Dunlop  35:21

Yeah, okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. 

Murray Guest  35:23

Yeah, the Japanese lady does some great work around does it bring you joy? And if it doesn’t, you know, say goodbye to it and let it go. Does this process bring you joy? Does this piece of equipment bring you joy? If not let it go. Yeah, check it out. I think she challenges some people’s thinking about people feeling like, well, you’re telling me I have to let go of stuff. But obviously, there’s some other mindset stuff there that has to really shift of course, as well. Yeah, but I guess the bit I was thinking about through all that is, it’s hard to see the opportunities if we’re just full of all that deep, that cluttering.

Paul Dunlop  36:07

Yeah. And I think that lies at the heart of a lean approach is just to, you know, talk about the concept of value and non value and waste. And it’s about really creating those visuals around what’s important and getting that focus around what’s important and giving people a sense of that purpose. And I think, you know, to go off on a little bit of a tangent is that one of the first things I will ask people in organizations is, what does a good day look like for you? And most people I find can’t really answer that question very well, but they might have their own idea of what that is. But there’s certainly no clear definition of, at the end of the day this is what achievement looks like for me, this is what success is. And so I look at that. And I think, wow, that’s, that’s really sad that we expect human beings to come to our workplace and give their time, sure they get a paycheck, but put in time and effort, but not to be really clear around what good is, and certainly not to get any feedback around that. So I think that visualization, and I guess the support and energy we can put around that is only a good thing.

Murray Guest  37:40

100%. And that question, of course, looks different for each individual. And that’s something that’s been highlighted, I think, in 2020. Through all the changes of working arrangements and flexibility, how everyone’s situation is very unique. We’ve got to take that into account. And what a best day looks like, does someone get a chance to use their strengths and bring their best selves to work day in, day out? You’ve mentioned Lego a couple of times, and it’s something we both are a bit passionate about, because we can see the benefit of Lego and what it brings. How did you get into Lego Serious Play? Or were you a Lego fan beforehand?

Paul Dunlop  38:26

Okay, so yeah, a Lego fan, I grew up with Lego, I grew up with meccano. So very hands on sort of practical person. Through my lean experience, so I do, you know, run a lot of lean workshops that are simulation based so already understand that the value of kinesthetic learning and practical learning. So there’s a couple, I run a 5S, a PDCA simulation with Lego already. I have an associate in New Zealand, Rob Bull, who is a lean guy as well and sort of late last year started talking about Lego Serious Play and started posting around and I was curious, what’s all this about? So we had a few conversations about it. And he got me excited and got me some exposure to it. So I started doing my own research and yeah, sort of, did my Lego Facilitators training last month with Michael, who you did your training with, so yeah, it’s really, for me, opened up a whole new world and really opened my eyes to I guess the possibilities. So, you know, in my day to day consulting work, I’d run a lot of workshops, a lot of brainstorming sessions and problem solving sessions, whether they’re around strategy or vision or, you know, perhaps root cause analysis, whatever it might be. And you know, there’s a bunch of stakeholders in the room. It’s sticky notes on the wall and those sorts of things. So I guess what Lego now brings is another medium, another tool, to the toolbox. It’s not a one size fits all, as you know, but where Lego now comes in as it starts to, I think create a more democratic process in terms of creating a, it’s not just the the loudest voice in the room that gets heard. By creating a Lego model, you know, it’s almost replacing the sticky note, which is, you know, a few words which may or may not mean anything to people in the room. It’s flat, it’s one dimensional, it’s kind of lifeless, really, whereas a Lego model is bringing that idea to life. And it’s got a story behind it. And we’re starting to obviously talking in metaphors and things.

Murray Guest  40:58

I totally hear everything you’re saying, Paul, and I love the richness of conversation that it generates. And I think for those introverted people that might have trouble articulating a point, as you’re saying, on a post it note or a piece of paper. If you talk to the build that you’ve created, it gives them this opportunity to open up and I’ve loved that richness that helps generate.

Paul Dunlop  41:22

Yeah, 100%. And I think it drives, particularly in a group situation, that curiosity, you know, I’m big on non judgement and curiosity. And it just, I think that that level playing field where people have something very real, very tangible, there’s a, you know, there’s an opportunity to discuss that, there’s an encouragement there for others in the group to ask questions and be curious and it really opens up people, I don’t know how to put it, but there’s much more of an emotional connection to it. There’s a lot more depth to the conversation or the story we learn about the people as well as their their experience. So it’s extremely powerful from that point of view. It is almost like kryptonite. Sometimes you don’t know how powerful that thing is. So yeah, my experience so far, you know, whether it be one on one or in group situations is that this is a tool that provides so much value.

Murray Guest  42:36

I agree from my experience so far. And I’m looking forward to using it more as we’re doing back to more face to face workshops. But you’ve really reminded me as well the power of that kinesthetic learning in that hand-mind connection, and how important that is. And there’s so much of that lost in, in training, and just the day to day work that people do in offices and coming back to that is powerful, and helps that learning process.

Paul Dunlop  43:06

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I think, you know, again, from the outside looking in, yeah it sounds a bit silly and a bit novel, and whatever, but it’s, you know, the underscore is on the Serious, the Lego is just the medium to have that. And yeah, there’s absolutely that, you know, I think as well getting into that flow state, so where people are just lost in, in the actual play, and they’re just thinking about putting blocks together. Obviously, through the Lego Serious Play methodology, there’s always a question. And I like Michael’s approach, don’t have a meeting with yourself, don’t overthink it, you know, just build and it’s like, you know, when you do any personality profiling or any surveys that, you know, the advice is just answer the question as quickly as possible. Just build the model as quickly as possible. And then there’s that, I guess, that reflection at the end where you, you’ve probably had a bit of a thread in your mind around what you’re doing. But you haven’t really thought too much about it. At the end, and in the builds that I’ve done, I’m like, wow, okay, I get this, this makes perfect sense to me. And you’re able to really start to you know, that post hoc thinking and really reflect heavily on it. And it’s amazing how much sense it actually makes to you.

Murray Guest  44:34

Yeah, I, I agree. And I’ve loved using it. And I’m using again with some clients in the coming weeks. And I love again, that process that Michael introduced to me and capturing it with the photos and that, I guess, momento that people have or even anchoring for that conversation they had to then, you know, revisit that in the future and come come back to that and how powerful that’s been so. Yeah, Paul, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on board, chatting about Lego Serious Play just then. But obviously, leadership, change, lean. Helping leaders and cultures go from chaos to calm. I was talking a lot recently about clarity, you talk about clarity and obviously that’s something we’re both aligned in how important that is and what that brings. What’s life look like for the rest of 2020?

Paul Dunlop  45:33

Lots more Lego hopefully. Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve only really started putting that out there over the last few weeks. And it’s generated a lot of interest. So I’m really excited to start doing some some bigger workshops. I’ve got a strategy workshop on the horizon, which I’m really excited about. So yeah, a lot more Lego. Obviously, Melbourne, currently is starting to looking at starting to open up. So there’s been a few clients there that I haven’t physically been able to get to. So I’m looking forward to sort of re establishing that. So yeah, that’s kind of the, the demand stay ahead is yeah, just getting back into physically being in the workplace, which would be good.

Murray Guest  46:25

So hopefully some some good news, I think on Sunday about changes going forward for Victoria, which is, from all that’s been reported numbers are heading in the right direction, which is fantastic. And, of course, challenging times, but that sounds like heading in the right direction and quicker than maybe what was anticipated earlier, which is great. Now I’m going to ask you three last questions. First one is just something you’re happy to share that you love to do that’s not directly work related, what’s something that you want to open up and let us know that you’d love to do that maybe not playing with teams and leaders around lean and Lego and other things.

Paul Dunlop  47:10

I don’t switch off easily. So I am an avid reader. So I kept saying leaders are readers. So it’s very important for me to live my own methodology. So yeah, constantly reading all sorts of books, particularly, I guess, on the topic of leadership, I’ve been reading a lot of Ryan Holidays books lately and getting into stoicism and all of that, which has been fantastic. So yep, constantly reading. The other thing I’ve been I think I posted yesterday, one of the kind of lockdown activities that I’ve really enjoyed is getting into the Wim Hof Method. So doing the breath work and the cold showers and ice baths and all that. So that’s yeah, I’ve really enjoyed that.

Murray Guest  48:01

I did some late last year in Bali, the ice baths. And after my accident, you know, controlling my breath and that mindfulness was quite difficult. And I still remember the first bath I lasted like 40 seconds and my wife found it very funny. I was panting and breathing all over the place but day five I was in the ice bath for over six minutes. So yeah, it’s hard to explain to someone if they haven’t done it the impact that has on I think focus, energy. I loved it.

Paul Dunlop  48:39

Yeah, it’s fantastic. And just starting to get to that point where you’re controlling your autonomic responses. Yeah. Very powerful stuff.

Murray Guest  48:51

Well done. And again, there’s a great example of something that you can’t just do once you got to persevere. You’ve got to keep going at it. Second last question, your definition of inspired energy? 

Paul Dunlop  49:07

Hmm, for me, inspired energy. I guess where I see that and almost what I live for and in my job is where I’m sure you’ve seen this, is the light comes on in people’s eyes. For me, at the front lines of organizations where people have, you know, what we’ve talked about through our conversation, that that space and that ownership and that permission to really grab hold of what they’re doing and to make change, to make positive change, or at least to the joy of the process of experimentation. So for me, everything I do is geared towards that moment where the penny drops and people get get that. It is literally inspired energy. Yeah.

Murray Guest  50:05

And I hear you. And you’re right. I’ve seen that. And that that drives me for the work that I do. And it’s funny, I was running a workshop recently, one of my first face to face workshops, and a leader’s name came up and he said, I met that leader years ago, and I’ve just done some more work with him. And now he’s all switched on. He’s driving us. He’s identifying hazards, and we’re improving. He goes, do I have you to blame? Oh, that’s a good thing I think. So that was good. So yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Paul Dunlop  50:39

100%. And that’s exactly what it looks like. So for me, yeah, all the hard work, all of the difficult conversations, all of the slow going, it’s all worth it for those moments.

Murray Guest  50:52

Yeah, I agree. Paul, you do amazing work, and sustainable work too which is so important, and not just ticking the box, which I think is so needed. If anyone wants to reach out and check out the work you do or to contact you, where’s the best place to do that online?

Paul Dunlop  51:11

At the moment, it will be LinkedIn. So there is a website under construction at the moment so that will arrive hopefully in the next few weeks. But yeah, LinkedIn is the best way. Currently, my contact details are all on there. So yeah, please don’t hesitate to get in touch.

Murray Guest  51:29

Yeah, fantastic. And as of course you are based in Melbourne, but with what’s going on in the world, you are available to serve people all around the world. Absolutely. So if anyone listening to this conversation, if you’ve got something out of it, and I’m sure you did. Paul has a wealth of knowledge that he just shared. Make sure you share it online, on LinkedIn, tag Paul and myself. And let us know, that would be awesome. Paul, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the chat. Look forward to keeping in contact and all the best for the rest of 2020.

Paul Dunlop  52:06

No thank you, Murray. Appreciate that. And it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Episode 72 – Chris Miller | Strengths Coach, Consultant, Facilitator

In this episode I chat with Chris Miller, an experienced business, executive and personal coach, based in Wellington NZ, who consistently inspires exceptional results

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:02

Welcome, Chris, to the podcast. Great to have you. How are you on this winter morning?

Christopher Miller  00:08

Very well. Thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s nice and sunny, but windy in Wellington.

Murray Guest  00:13

Yeah, Wellington has that that reputation for getting a bit windy and a bit cold, how’s it been?

Christopher Miller  00:20

Oh, it’s been alright. I mean, we’ve traveled winter reasonably well, it hasn’t been brutal as it can be some years. But it’s been certainly manageable, more than manageable.

Murray Guest  00:34

I’d like to invite anyone and everyone actually, if you haven’t been to Wellington, it’s one of my favorite cities, such a great part of the world. I love New Zealand. And I think Wellington is just such a great size, so much to do and see. It’s a beautiful part of the world. How long have you been in Wellington for?

Christopher Miller  00:52

So I’ve been here since 2007. So a good 13 years now, and Wellington has always been home. We haven’t moved around New Zealand. We started up the coast a little bit and then moved into the center of Wellington. And we’ve been here ever since.

Murray Guest  01:09

Yeah, and as I said, great place to visit. I’ve been there a few times. Love it over there. And obviously, this year 2020 has been a challenging year for so many people, COVID in so many different ways. Chris, how have you been? And how’s the business going after all we’ve been experiencing?

Christopher Miller  01:28

Yeah, it’s been interesting, it’s certainly had its challenges. And like you, there’s a lot of transition from quite a substantial amount of face to face work within Wellington, that I that I offset with a lot of telephone coaching work and kind of video consulting from from where I am. But all of my face to face, obviously during COVID had to transition to zoom sessions. And some of my clients were quite big and we’re juggling multiple people and facilitating coaching sessions with lots of input on the client side. And others were just one on one sessions that switch from face to face coaching in cafes or offices to face to face zoom call or even just a telephone call, which I’ve really enjoyed. There’s a little bit of freedom to just being on the phone with the client and being really focused on them and their needs in a way that that is perhaps different to the face to face relationship that I’ve had. So now that we’ve sort of we’ve started to come out, although we’ve gone back into a certain alert level, I’m kind of mixing up my client relationships with a bit of zoom, a bit of face to face, a bit of telephone. And I think clients are appreciating that variety. I mean, some have a preference but most are quite comfortable doing it quite differently now that we’ve all experienced working from home and what comes with it.

Murray Guest  02:58

I totally agree, I think the appetite for online training and you know, doing sessions over zoom and different formats for coaching. From my experience with my clients and other coaches I’ve been talking to, that appetite’s increased. And that desire to have everything face to face, I think, has changed. I’ve certainly moved forward with my business with a sort of hybrid model where there’s a mix of the online and the face to face because I still love that energy you get in the room. But I think the appetite’s changed.

Christopher Miller  03:31

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, and I find it interesting. I think everybody kind of went Zoom mad. And we were all doing face to face zoom sessions, and everybody was getting exhausted by the end of a normal day or by Tuesday, you were wiped out. And I think we all learn from that. And I’m really enjoying, I guess, convincing clients the value of an old fashioned telephone call that doesn’t involve video, that doesn’t involve FaceTime, that doesn’t involve whatever. Because you can imagine where the client is. And you can have a very strong heart to heart conversation that doesn’t require seeing their facial mannerisms and being stuck to a screen.

Murray Guest  04:16

I had a leader, funny you say that, I had a leader, one of my clients in the past few weeks, say I’m sick of zoom, just pick up the phone and give me a phone call. 

Christopher Miller  04:24

Yeah, I think I think everybody has felt that. 

Murray Guest  04:27

Yeah. Now you’re doing some amazing work with organizations with a strengths based approach. And that’s one of the reasons I want to get you on the podcast because I love the work that you do and the impact that makes. Can we just go back a bit in your journey; why strengths for you, and how did you get introduced to this whole world of strengths?

Christopher Miller  04:49

Yeah so I’ll backup, even pre strength, I trained, I’m Canadian by origin and I moved to the UK where I had a fairly substantial pharmaceutical career mostly in sales and marketing. And then towards the end of that career, I was a people leader. And I discovered the art of coaching as an extension of my management skill. And I fell in love with coaching. I fell in love with what it does, how it works, how it gets the best out of people. And so I trained as a corporate executive coach with the Coaching Academy in the UK. And then when my wife and I immigrated to New Zealand, I joined a business coaching company and I coached small businesses for about three years. And then I had the opportunity to join Gallup as an employee and if you join Gallup, you’re instantly converted to the strength movement, but if you don’t buy into the strength movement, don’t join Gallup! So that was a real joy for me. I mean, I’m input and learner in my top five, when I landed at Gallup it was like this avalanche of books to read and white papers and files that reference strengths and engagement and all of the science that Gallup does so well. So I trained as a Gallup coach within Gallup. So I was senior consultant for New Zealand, really leading culture change programs based on strengths and engagement. And really fell in love with the science of strengths at that time. And at the time, I kind of started to understand my own top five and my own top 10. And that was really relevant. But I suppose what, with time, and with the, I guess the, the emphasis on strengths within the Gallup family, the relevance of my strengths to my marriage, and my kids, and my hobbies, and my fitness, it just all kind of exploded about three to four years after I understood my profile for the first time. So that was really, that was really fascinating. And that’s one of the things that I really enjoy doing for clients is, this is not a workplace tool, this is a life tool that happens to work in the workplace.

Murray Guest  07:13

I introduced some new leaders to strengths this week, which was fantastic, those initial conversations, and you and I are so aligned, because my conversations were definitely around, this is the start of the journey about understanding your strengths. And if anyone that’s been through the strengths process, we talk about name it, claim it, aim it, and that aiming and even the claiming can take some time, can’t it?

Christopher Miller  07:37

Yeah, it can. One of the one of the things that I realized about my own coaching, though, because I do corporate executive coaching, mostly within Gallup with Gallup clients, and then I do my own private, small business clients within Wellington. My corporate coaching is normally a single session with a full 34 report. And I used to religiously go through the name it, claim it, aim it process. And unfortunately, as is the way, aiming it came in the last 10 to 15 minutes of the conversation, and I kind of went this is not working for executives who have limited time. So I actually turned it on its head and I now do aim it up front. I asked my clients very clearly at the very beginning of the rapport building of the session is what are some of your biggest goals for this year? And what are some of your biggest challenges, and then we do the walkthrough of their top 10 and their bottom five in the context of those challenges, and it brings it to life much, much more fully I find, than leaving aiming it till the end of a call.

Murray Guest  08:47

I love that, turning it around. And I think you’ve articulated something that I’ve been doing, but I haven’t articulated as well as, as what you just stepped us through. I’ve had clients say to me in my coaching sessions, they say, so tell me, what do I do with my strengths? And then my question back to them is, so what are you trying to achieve? Or what are your goals or what you’re trying to overcome? And we’ll talk about that. And then how do your strengths help you in one of those situations? So yeah, I love how you’ve really thought openly about let’s turn that around.

Christopher Miller  09:18

And don’t get me wrong. That was like a two year process. It didn’t happen overnight. But I kind of had a wake up call one day when I went, I’m coaching the C suite team. And they don’t have time for faffing around on kind of a bit of navel gazing. They really need it to have an impact very early.

Murray Guest  09:38

Yeah, that’s such a good point. And I think, again, thinking about what’s the partnership with a client or a coachee and how much time you have to then best serve them. Because if it’s like a 10 session partnership where you’re working through a number of processes, you might change that process around. So you mentioned strengths has impacted you personally and professionally. If you were to pick one of your top five that’s really made a difference in your life, or a couple, what ones stand out for you?

Christopher Miller  10:08

Yeah, they all have. My number one is interesting because Maximizer for me was kind of mid teens when I first did Strengths Finder, and when I first did Clifton strengths. And then I redid it when I became self employed, when I left the corporate world and became self employed, Maximizer moved from like 17 to number one. And I couldn’t figure out why it had made such a big switch but in time I’ve just fallen in love with it over and over and over again. And so that energy of constant never ending improvement when you are self employed, right, you have to be self motivated to keep improving your business every day, keep improving your client relationships every day. And even in my personal life, the energy of without going over the top with it, but the energy of improving my relationship with my wife and my relationship with my sons. It’s always in my mind, not in an overt way. But I know there’s a piece of me that wants to keep making things better. And several years when I first realized that when it first made the jump from kind of lower down my list to to number one, I kind of fell into the Maximizer trap, which is the perfectionist, making things perfect every step of the way. And I’ve softened on myself, right? My standards for myself were just too high. And I was creating a lot of pressure for myself that was unnecessary, and to be able to relax it and just enjoy the journey of tomorrow will be a little bit better than today. Just make that happen. That it’s been a great philosophy for me to adopt.

Murray Guest  12:01

I have Maximizer number 12. And I reckon early in my life would have been higher. Because as you’re talking through the way you see the world and the way the Maximizer shows up for you, I totally connect with that. I just want to check in you said you’ve done the assessment twice. Did you have much other changing in your dominant strengths and talents when you redid the assessment?

Christopher Miller  12:24

Yeah, that’s a great question. So I did my first assessment was when I joined Gallup, and that was in 2010. And then I set up my own business in September 2017. And in late 2017 or early 2018 I did it the second time. And I really did it on the premise that my mindset as an self employed entrepreneur was very different to my mindset as an employee. And that was my rationale for doing it twice. Now the interesting thing is nine out of my top 13 remain the same. So nine out of my top 13 remain the same, but the four that were added, were very relevant to life as a life in self employment. So Maximizer at number one, my connectedness also came up to number three, my self assurance came up. And that confidence, that ability, like I never would have, I probably grew into the courage to launch my own business. And it was reflected in the movement of my self assurance, which was really interesting.

Murray Guest  13:34

Well, I think those numbers that you just talked us through are consistent with the research of Don Clifton around that repeatability of the assessments. Which is great to hear. And, and certainly my journey, you know, five and a half years ago started my own business, isn’t just a switch overnight, you don’t just go, oh I’ll start a business. Yeah, there’s a journey there. But yeah, I love that that awareness that you’ve got. Can I ask though, is there anything that dropped out of your dominant talents that surprised you?

Christopher Miller  14:05

Well, the funny thing was my I had originally memorized and committed to growing my top 10. And communication was in my top five, in my old pattern, and communication dropped to 13. As as a result of that, I decided I was going to memorize my top 13. So they became my dominant themes. And interestingly enough my relator and strategic are at, sorry, strategic then relator at 14 and 15, I became more aware of the way I was using those in over the last couple of years and I just decided that 15 was a relevant threshold to to acknowledge my dominant themes, but communication dropping out of my top 10 and me being so wedded to being a good communicator, and being proud of having communication originally in my top five meant that I committed my dominant themes much lower down my list.

Murray Guest  15:07

Yeah, and I agree with you there in the the understanding of our dominant group is somewhere, honestly, over my years what I’ve experienced with people I work with it sort of sits somewhere around between 10, maybe 15, 16, where that sort of shifts from that dominant to that sort of, some of the time that I live those strengths. And I can hear your communication still there, Chris, don’t worry, it hasn’t dropped too much. So tell me a bit about how when you partner with a client, you leverage purpose values and strengths to shape their culture.

Christopher Miller  15:50

I love aiming strengths. But in particular, I love aiming strengths at culture as defined by purpose and values. So what a lot of organizations have been reasonably good at is kind of developing a commentary for themselves around purpose and values. But what it misses for me is the journey for the individual of defining their purpose and their values. So I do a lot of sequential facilitation processes that allow a client to discover purpose at an individual level, as well as a collective level, discover and acknowledge values at an individual level and the collective level, right? The values of someone who’s in your business who’s a parent, are different to the values of a millennial who isn’t a parent yet. They’re just different. But if you don’t acknowledge that before you write the values for the organization, then you come out with a list of commentary that half the room doesn’t get or doesn’t accept.

Murray Guest  16:59

And we’re trying to squeeze everyone into matching a set of values.

Christopher Miller  17:03

Well, that’s right. That’s right. And values are not a rule book to live by. They are a philosophy that we agree with. They’re an energy, right, that we all kind of go Yeah, that’s how we want to be seen. That’s how we want to be portrayed. That’s how we want to treat other people. And that formula of building purpose at the individual level, values at the individual level, and then purpose at the organizational level, values at the organizational level, and then asking, how does our strengths profile allow us to express our values and our purpose?

Murray Guest  17:45

Yeah, yeah. And I love what strengths brings from that self awareness of myself and others, and that values understanding for self and others. And that’s just another lens, isn’t it, for understanding how we see the world, how we want to show up and live in the world as well.

Christopher Miller  18:03

That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely, absolutely. And I find it really fascinating that when people both start by separating and then integrating purpose, values and strengths, it takes a different life, it has a different flavor. So when you’ve decided what we care about most in life, and what we care about most at work. And you can overlay that with we are an influencing team or we are an executing team or we are a relationship building team, even after they’ve built the values, you can see the strengths reflected in the language they’ve chosen.

Murray Guest  18:41

Yeah.

Christopher Miller  18:42

Even when you do it without the team grid present in those sessions.

Murray Guest  18:47

For the organization’s you work with, is there a set sequence in which you explore this, that you think works better than others?

Christopher Miller  18:56

Yeah, it’s usually purpose for the individuals, purpose for the organization, values for the individuals, values for the organization. And then how do we aim our strengths at all of that?

Murray Guest  19:10

Yeah, great.

Christopher Miller  19:12

That’s usually it, varies sometimes, but that’s usually the sequence.

Murray Guest  19:16

Yeah. Okay. And at the moment, are you finding that there’s a reset? And we talked a little bit about this before we started recording today, a bit of a reset around values and purpose with all that’s happening in 2020 do you think?

Christopher Miller  19:35

Yeah, there is, it almost feels a bit early. I think people are, some individuals have the energy to bring that to the table like now and they want to change things now. Most organizations are still so uncertain of lockdown, no lockdown, partial lockdown. What does the future hold? Where are we going? Like they’re definitely, they’re there. They’ve definitely had kind of lightbulb moments at home, working from home going, we really should reconsider, think again, about our purpose and values. But I’m not convinced that they are. I’m not convinced that they have thought about the foundations or that they’re in the right emotional mindset to actually start articulating that well. And it depends. Geographically I know, there are things going on in Australia that are different to New Zealand, and different organizations are at different stages of readiness. But I just get the sense that there’s still so much uncertainty about the world, and even our countries, that people are not entirely convinced that a purpose and values exercise are going to bear fruit right now. Early 2021, I suspect may be a good place to start.

Murray Guest  20:57

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it goes back to your process about we need to understand purpose and values at an individual level, because 2020’s journey for each person has been very, very different. And taking that into account right now is too early. We’re still in the midst of it in many areas.

Christopher Miller  21:20

Well, are people leaders brave enough to even tackle the topic of individual purpose, individual values, because that’s a very different, that’s a very different process to what most organizations follow. Most organizations are very good at putting everybody in the room and saying, why do we exist? What is our purpose as an organization, but nobody asked, what is your individual purpose as a people leader? What is your individual purpose as a contributor? What does that look like? How do we capture the organization? How do we make the organizational purpose resonate with your reason for being here?

Murray Guest  21:56

So if someone’s listening to our conversation, and they’re thinking, Well, I have no idea what my purpose is? What’s your advice to that?

Christopher Miller  22:09

It starts in a couple of different ways. I mean, it depends on what their talents are and what their strengths are. I went deep on the literature, right? So Simon Sinek’s publication, Start With Why, not just the purpose led, so Good To Great for example, the Jim Collins classic, talks about purpose at an organizational level, but I kind of extrapolated from that, and ask myself, okay, what coaching questions can I build that elicit a purpose response for me personally, like I did it for myself? And, and it was very much along the lines of just asking, Well, why, why am I here? And what am I here to contribute? And what I was able to do is crystallize, let’s say, it’s probably half a dozen questions along those lines that I’ve now put into a resource that I use with my clients. And it’s and I call it a purpose creator, which is a bit fancy, but the premise is just find the question that resonates with you most, right? What legacy do you want to leave? There are lots of different ways to ask a purpose led question. But your ability to find the right question after the right walk through nature, or sitting by the beach, or being at home with a cup of tea, like whatever the right moment is for you, ask yourself some purpose-led questions and see what comes up. Because somewhere inside you is your purpose. And you know what it is, you’ve just never asked yourself those questions.

Murray Guest  23:45

Yeah, and I think a critical part that you are exploring right now is it’s actually taking the preparation time, not just thinking, alright, I’m gonna work on my purpose right now. It’s, there’s the getting in the right mindset, getting in the right environment, and giving it the time it needs to actually explore it with some self reflection or with some coaching from someone like yourself to actually unpack that, you know, with the right questions. And I think you allude to something also, which I really think is important, is the purpose of someone at different life stages and life areas can be quite different. So someone that’s, you know, in their 60s, that’s been an executive for some time, they might be really focused on legacy versus someone in their 20s. They might be quite different. And that’s not wrong. It’s about Okay, let’s understand what that is for you right now.

Christopher Miller  24:42

Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, and I like to highlight for people mostly when I’m in a workshop environment, rather than one on one. But it’s that spirit of human beings, we are the only living creature on the planet who’s been given the privilege. Being able to rewrite their purpose every single day. So if you want to rewrite your purpose every single day, or create a unique purpose for that day, you can. Now there are lots of people who advocate, you need a purpose for a certain season in your life, or you need a purpose that transcends your entire life. There’s lots of different ways to do it. But the really powerful bit about it is the fact that we are capable of articulating our own purpose, however long you want to live with it.

Murray Guest  25:31

Yeah, and that sounds exciting. To then think about, well, then what’s possible. And I love that, again, want to draw attention to get some clarity in that, invest in that and then start to think about Okay, how can I live my purpose through my strengths?

Christopher Miller  25:48

Yes, yes. Because you and I know that a typically brilliant execution specialist will express a purpose and will live their purpose very differently to a strategic thinker. So your purpose will always be right. But the way you transact that purpose or pursue that purpose may look very different depending on your strength profile.

Murray Guest  26:15

Yeah, yeah. Awesome, awesome. So I also know that you’ve got some great resources on your website, we’ll make sure in the show notes of the podcast that draw people to that. And I think that’s going to also help them explore this a bit more as well. I also want to ask you, Chris, about a love most matrix. I mean, I love the name of it to start with. Tell us about that.

Christopher Miller  26:44

Yeah, sure. So the love most matrix came from my belief, my fundamental belief in strengths philosophy, and knowing that not everybody jumps to knowing their profile overnight, right? So because there are so many people who haven’t been exposed to Clifton strengths, or they’ve done these assessments before and they haven’t bought into it, or there’s something as a, there’s a mental barrier for them to even engage in the strength language. I thought to myself, wouldn’t it be cool if I could design a tool that allowed people to talk strengths without necessarily needing their own profile? And, and that’s where the love matrix came about. And so the love most matrix is, is very simple. It’s only four quadrants, but it’s sitting in a room with an individual or a team and asking them, what do you love most at work or life? What do you love least at work or life? What do you do best? And what do you do worst? At an individual level, it’s really enlightening, because an individual can start owning what they love least and do worst and going, I need to get rid of those. I got to negotiate my way out of those. But at a team level, at team sessions I love because I’ll do it on a whiteboard. And I’ll put everybody’s names down the left hand side, and I’ll put the love most matrix across the top. And I’ll capture everybody’s responses as they give them to each box, right? And it only works when there’s a lot of trust in the team because you have to be willing to really put it out there that you hate something that you’re paid to do. But when you look at the grid, and you start seeing people going, I can’t believe you love that. I hate doing that. Would you mind doing more of that for me? And they start like horse trading in the room based on the love most love least pattern, right? Or the do worse/do best pattern. And it’s just really, it’s a joy to watch people walk through it. Because they kind of go I’m allowed, I’m allowed to admit. And I’m allowed to acknowledge with my boss in the room, that I hate that aspect of my job.

Murray Guest  28:58

Sorry, I’m getting excited. I’m picturing it on the whiteboard. I’m picturing that energy in the room when people are sharing and bring to the surface, maybe some of those things that they may be in the past or just going I have to do this. I don’t want to do it. Now I’ve got the permission to say, you know what, I really just don’t like doing that at all.

Christopher Miller  29:16

Yeah. And and it allows a really valuable next conversation, which is okay, you don’t like that aspect of your job? How do we negotiate that? Can we outsource it? Can we hand it to another member of the team? Can the boss do it? What is our strategy? Or if it has to remain with that individual, how do you leverage your strengths to make that side more palatable, more enjoyable?

Murray Guest  29:43

I love that, Chris, because, again, one of the things I make sure I talk to everyone about when we talk about strengths is it’s not an excuse. So you’ve got this awareness that that’s where my dominant strengths and talents lie, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t, you know, for example, I’ve got a report that’s due, disciplines low, so I just do the report whenever I get around to it. No, no, it’s due on its due date. I’m actually thinking this is a powerful tool for families as well.

Christopher Miller  30:17

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, because in a lot of cases, the kids especially will feel, I guess, a little bit trapped, if they’re faced with a loved least activity or a do worst activity. And they’re kinda like, I know, Mom and Dad want me to do this better. But I don’t have the energy or I don’t have the talent, or I don’t have the desire to get any better at it. So as a parent, you look at the love most and do best stuff and say, Well, how do we fill 99% of your week with those activities? Because you’re going to have a happier child instantly.

Murray Guest  30:58

So Chris, I’ll get back to you within a week about the impact this has on my family. So kids watch out we’re going to be exploring, who’s going to do the dishes and, and mop the floor. Okay.

Christopher Miller  31:13

Well, but the other the other way that I that I look at the tasks that everybody loves least is, what do we have to inject to make it enjoyable, right? Put the music on, dance with the mop, do something fun, tell jokes, have the TV on in the background, whatever, like do something that makes it a more enjoyable process. Because nobody likes doing that activity. Potentially.

Murray Guest  31:37

Yeah, yeah. I’m also obviously seeing the impact this can have for an intact team, where there is work that’s allocated, or work that needs to be done, and just again, bring to the surface around how do we get that work done with a real strengths based and love based approach.

Christopher Miller  31:57

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Or, or my motivation for doing something I don’t like changes if I can, if I can do it through the lens of one of my top five, for example, like if I see it as, if I have high competition, and I see it as beating my brother or sister, well, it becomes a very different activity to have to do the dishes.

Murray Guest  32:20

Yes. And that’s the again, the essence of aiming your strengths to achieve something versus how do I just go about living my strengths? Thank you. That’s a great walkthrough of the love most matrix. And I’d love to know if anyone takes the initiative from what Chris just talked through and applies that with their team. And if you do, please let Chris and I know, tag us on social media, because it sounds like a powerful thing. And of course, reach out to Chris, I’m sure we can help you work with your team on that as well. So Chris, tell me what’s on your plate right now, what are some of the things you’re working on currently?

Christopher Miller  33:02

So I am in the process during lockdown in New Zealand, I knew I kind of solidified my local clients, and I moved them all to phone and zoom. And that all went well. But I lost a lot of my international clients because their markets were so disrupted by COVID-19. And so I had some extra time on my hands. And I used it to really look at my own practice development, right? How am I going to change as a business, in terms of putting myself into the marketplace. So I have been investing in a new website, and have also invested in a magazine that will come out within the next six weeks or so. So that’s been, that’s been a huge amount of work, because the magazine itself is a booklet of client stories, impact on clients, tools that have been used, how those tools have been used with those clients, and then examples of the resources themselves in the magazine itself. So that’s been a big part of my energy lately. What’s been nice in the last, I would say three or four weeks is that some, because the world has gotten a little more stable or a little more used to COVID-19 that my international executive coaching has started to drift back. I’ve also had more leads for my local clients or potentially more new local clients. So my business development effort and my engagement with international clients has has gone up a little bit on top of kind of executing the final throes of the website and the insights magazine. So that’s been really rewarding and I’m going to be, I’m really proud of it. It’s not quite finished yet, but I’m really proud of how it looks at the moment.

Murray Guest  34:58

I’m really excited for that magazine and I look forward to reading that. I mean, that’s a great piece to do, to invest in time to really capture the impact of what you’ve done with your clients. So yeah, really look forward to that coming out in the coming weeks. And of course, your new website, I know what that can be like, that’s a bit of a journey. Sometimes it is. Yeah, so well done on investing the time in that as well. On your website, though, at the moment, you’ve got some work you’ve invested in, your purpose and values, which I think is fantastic, the way you’ve done that, and you’re living and breathing, the type of work you do with your clients. So if anyone wants to check out Chris’s website, either now or the new version, you’re going to see that which I think is great. But something else you’ve got, which to be honest, I haven’t seen on a website before is your greatest imaginable challenges. You got these three things outlined there. And again, I love this. Tell me where that came from. And if you can talk us through those, that’d be great.

Christopher Miller  35:58

I was really, one of my favorite business development books that I actively used extensively in business coaching was Good To Great by Jim Collins, and in Good To Great Jim Collins talks a lot about organizations having a big hairy audacious goal. And everybody, kind of most people, in the business will know that term now. He coined it. It’s very relevant and very special. But I found that a couple of things. One, the big, hairy, audacious goal felt organizational, not individual. And also the word audacious felt very North American to me, and I’m a Canadian, so I kind of went that just irks me sometimes using that language. So I reflected on the three pillars that Jim advocated building a big, hairy, audacious goal and adapted it to an individual. So it is still all about passion. What are you most passionate about? What do you do best in life? What are you best at? And where can you add most value to yourself? Or others? Right? So those are the three principles. And that’s how I coach greatest manageable challenge, I ask those three questions, and I get people to answer them individually to start with. And then I ask them to look at them collectively. And ask yourself, how did they come together? What is your Mount Everest for the next 10 to 20 years of your life? And you can have many, you don’t have to have one, you can have several. But I’ll give you an example in my life. My wife loves cycling, she loves cycling, but she cycles on her own, she doesn’t cycle in a club, she just goes out on her own and cycles. She also, what she does best is she always finishes what she starts, she always finishes what she starts. And in terms of adding value, she knew she wanted to have a meaningful achievement before we left the UK, in this kind of domain. And so she woke up one morning and said, I’m going to cycle the length of Great Britain. And I said, pardon. I said what?! And at the time we had a three year old at home, and she was cycling, but not all that aggressively. And I thought, well, how are you going to do that? Like, how are you going to train for that? And then how are you actually going to execute it. And we learned within four weeks, she had worked out a training plan, she had booked all the bed and breakfasts, eight to 10 weeks later, we were down in Cornwall, starting at Land’s End. And she got on her bike and myself and my three year old son, our eldest son at the time, sat in the car and we picked her up at the end of every day. And we dropped her off at the beginning of every day. And she solo cycled 17 days, up the length of Great Britain. And that was her greatest imaginable challenge. So it can be work related, it can be fitness related, it can be academic, it can be whatever, but just find something you’re passionate about. Find something that plays to your strengths, and find something that you know will add value to you or your family or your community. And see where it leads you because that’s what great lives are made of. I figure we can all get caught in the normalcy of a nine to five just doing stuff. Whereas the greatest imaginable challenge is like a light at the end of the tunnel that says okay, that’s the big thing I’m going to accomplish in the next 10 years.

Murray Guest  39:45

So what’s one of your great imaginable challenges that you’d love to share right now?

Christopher Miller  39:51

Ah, so yeah, thanks, Murray. Probably the most relevant one at the moment. I’m really, I kind of left, I very much moved back from the corporate world into small business coaching with an intention, I had a real reason behind it. I love small businesses, I love owning one. I love helping other owners of small businesses. I love the fact that in most countries around the world, small businesses are like the engine of the economy when you get right down to it. And so I’ve set myself an objective of meaningfully influencing the GDP of New Zealand by investing in the small to medium sized enterprise sector. And, and I have a role model in mind. There, there was a guy named Edward Deming, who was quite famous in the two decades after World War Two. And he went to Japan and helped Japan recover from World War Two. And he was the father of total quality management and continuous quality improvement, like he changed a country. Not single handed. There were a lot of other people who contributed, but he was a catalyst for that.

Murray Guest  41:07

And can I just say, in a real legacy, I mean, Deming is still referred to today for that impact around TQM and continuous improvement.

Christopher Miller  41:16

Yeah, absolutely. And so my own investment in small business coaching, but more than that, it’s more than coaching. It’s me developing intellectual property, like the love most matrix and tools that people can use that are useful and transform a business quite quickly. That’s, that’s where my heart is. And I, again, it’s a 10 to 15 year vision for me, I have, I love what I do. And I see myself working at least that long, if not longer. And so our intention as a family is to be in New Zealand, and for my target market to be very much New Zealand small businesses. And that’s a real dream of mine, if I can, if I can make it happen.

Murray Guest  42:05

I love that, Chris, and thank you for letting me put you on the spot. And thank you for sharing that. Because I think that’s very inspiring to to myself and to other people that do work like we do about getting real clarity in the impact and the why of what you do, and having that long term vision. So you’ve got me thinking more deeply, and how I can get greater clarity in that for myself. So I’ve got a bit of homework out of this podcast, which is awesome, I got to get back to you on that. 

Christopher Miller  42:35

Good. I know a good coach who can help you. 

Murray Guest  42:39

I’ll be in contact, don’t worry. I want to ask a few rapid fire questions. And then we’ll just wrap up with a few more things. But I hope you’re can strap in for a few rapid fire questions. So as someone high in input and learner, if you were to recommend a few books for a leader, what would you recommend?

Christopher Miller  43:10

I would start with Strengths Based Leadership, just because it combines the philosophy of strengths with leadership styles so well. And it articulates the needs of followers in the context of that leadership style. So all of that book is fantastic by Tom Rath, that would be a really good place to start. I think from an organizational point of view, I’d go back to Good to Great, even though it’s dated now. And many of the companies that were assessed, they’ve all gone through lots of change since the book was published, but the principles of the chapters, right, ‘the power of and’, the ‘bhag’, ‘core purpose’, ‘core values’, all of them are principles that a small business or a big business should be following, because they have stood the test of time, and they have created some of the best organizations in the world. So those would be a couple that I’d start with. 

Murray Guest  44:17

Okay so Strengths Based Leadership and Good To Great, fantastic. What’s your definition of culture?

Christopher Miller  44:23

Culture, for me, is how we treat each other and how we treat all of our stakeholders. So internally, it’s leadership and followers. It’s individual contributors with each other. It’s team atmosphere. It’s the how we treat each other as human beings, and what principles do we use to treat our clients and to treat our strategic partners? That for me is what culture is.

Murray Guest  44:57

Yeah, fantastic. If there was one place you could travel in the world right now, if there was no restrictions. Where would you love to go? 

Christopher Miller  45:08

Home to Halifax, Nova Scotia. 

Murray Guest  45:10

Well, that was pretty quick. Yep. Okay, gotcha. If there was anything you could eat right now, without any trouble, if there was like this go to meal that you just wish you could have. What would that be? 

Christopher Miller  45:24

Atlantic lobster. 

Murray Guest  45:25

Oh, in Nova Scotia? I guess? 

Christopher Miller  45:27

That’s right. 

Murray Guest  45:31

Okay. And what’s one of your strengths that’s right down the bottom of your 34 that you are just totally okay with it sitting there.

Christopher Miller  45:46

Yeah, my discipline is pretty low. And I find it really hilarious because a lot of people see me as incredibly productive and very reliable. But I do it without discipline. I do it without routine and structure. I just, I use other strengths to prioritize. But I don’t need a schedule necessarily. So yeah, I’m not, I’m not bothered that it’s at the bottom of my list. It just is what it is. 

Murray Guest  46:14

Understand. Totally got that. And last question, if someone was visiting Wellington, where do you think would be one of the first places they should go?

Christopher Miller  46:27

Te Papa. Te Papa is the National Museum and it’s extraordinary. I mean, even I’ve seen a number of great museums around the world, and Te Papa ranks right up there with what’s the best.

Murray Guest  46:41

So for someone as high in relator, relator number one, I throw questions at people about a whole range of areas of their life, and you’ve answered those quite well. So thank you for opening up, Chris, really appreciate that. And in my trips to Wellington, I haven’t been to the museum. So that’s going up to top of my list. So thank you for that. This is the inspired energy podcast. And I ask everyone this question, What is your definition of inspired energy?

Christopher Miller  47:14

Inspired energy, to me, is built on fulfillment. And fulfillment for me is living your purpose every single day. So inspired energy is your opportunity to live your purpose and feel fulfilled with your life. And that’s a choice thing. That’s not a circumstance thing. That’s a choice. You can choose to feel fulfilled every single day.

Murray Guest  47:42

Love it, love it. Thank you so much. I totally resonate with the power of choice in that. And obviously, there’s a great link there to mindset and the way we approach our situation. And again, links back to your exploration of purpose today, and how important that is. So thank you. And I’ve loved this chat. I’ve been watching you, stalking you online for a while. The great work you do and we’ve met through meetups, and it’s just been so great to just have this conversation today and take the opportunity to share your knowledge and wisdom. So Chris, thank you so much for your generosity in this conversation. 

Christopher Miller  48:26

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Murray Guest  48:29

If you want to find out more about Chris, check out his website, Christophermiller.co.nz and there’ll be a link to that in the show notes. And if you’ve got something from this conversation, which I’m sure you did, Christopher covered so much great examples, resources and strategies you can do. So please, if you’ve got something out of any of this conversation, share it on social media, particularly LinkedIn and tag Christopher and myself, because we’d love to know about that. Chris, all the best for the remainder of 2020, the launch of your magazine, your new website, keep doing the awesome work you do and I look forward to staying in touch. 

Christopher Miller  49:08

Fantastic. Thanks, Murray. 

Murray Guest  49:09

Thanks, mate.

​

Episode 71 – Brigette Landy | Recruitment & Strengths

In this episode I chat with Brigette Landy, a passionate recruiter who loves helping businesses solve their people needs.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

So Brige, welcome to the podcast. I’m so excited to be catching up with you on this bit of a cold winter’s morning. How are you? 

Brigette Landy  00:09

Yeah, I’m well, thanks Muz. I’m very happy to be here. And thanks for the invite. 

Murray Guest  00:14

I’ve known you for a number of years, and I’ve loved your passion for recruitment and everything that you do. And I’m really looking forward to exploring recruitment, and particularly that customer experience niche that you focus on. How have you been, though, before we get into all that stuff, just in the last few months with COVID? And all that that’s brought us in 2020?

Brigette Landy  00:37

It’s such a fun question, isn’t it? Look, I think most people would agree that it’s been turbulent. I’ve been well, I’ve had my ups and downs, definitely. Especially with three months of working from home in isolation. That truly sent me crazy towards the end of it. So I was really happy to get back to the office. I think it was about a month ago now. And we’ve been able to find a really nice balance of office time and work from home time. We’ve got full flexibility to do that. So kind of balancing out now which is great.

Murray Guest  01:17

So what do you think has been the best and the worst of working from home?

Brigette Landy  01:21

Okay, the best part would be hanging out with Evie all day every day.

Murray Guest  01:26

And Evie is your dog? 

Brigette Landy  01:29

Yeah, the fur child. The worst part would probably be seeing the awful things that she gets up to. She ate a full live bird the other day, she caught a little bird. And yeah, I was trying to chase her to save the bird. But she wouldn’t let me chase her and instead she she gobbled the whole thing down. Beak, feet and all. It was horrifying.

Murray Guest  01:56

Let’s be clear, what sort of dog is Evie? 

Brigette Landy  01:59

Evie is a big standard poodle. Yeah, she’s a big girl. Super cute, but not when she does things like that. 

Murray Guest  02:10

Yeah, of course, I understand. But I mean, you get to experience part of the wild while you’re working from home, which is cool. 

Brigette Landy  02:16

That’s right. 

Murray Guest  02:17

I’m surprised you didn’t say something like tracksuit pants or you know, leisure wear at home all the time. You know?

Brigette Landy  02:23

Maybe the ugg boots? But yeah, definitely hanging with the dog. The worst part was, in reality, was not being around my people, though. That was really hard. I mean, we did daily zooms. But that just doesn’t match up to in person, real face time.

Murray Guest  02:42

I’ve even been talking to a few clients who admittedly say they are introverts. And they’ve also shared that whilst they are an introvert, they’ve missed just that day to day connection, even sitting by someone else in the office and just knowing that they’re there. And you’re sort of saying it a bit, I think lightheartedly, but I think you’re also absolutely correct that the heaviness and the the struggle it’s been for a lot of people being away from their tribe, away from their team they normally work with, it’s been difficult.

Brigette Landy  03:15

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, the amount of change that everyone has been going through, it does create so much weight for everyone. I mean, my top strength is adaptability, right, which means I can change quickly. But as a leader, you have to manage that change for everyone around you and the people that you’re there to support. And it’s it’s a massive thing. I learnt so much about change over the last three months.

Murray Guest  03:45

Yeah, I bet you have. When you think about your team that you lead, what have you also learned about the importance of, you know, connecting with them and these past few months?

Brigette Landy  03:58

Yeah, it’s, it’s super important. I think what I’ve learnt is that we do need that face to face time, we do need that people time. We work in recruitment, of course we’re people, people. But it is so important to connect, and be there for each other and to communicate with each other.

Murray Guest  04:21

Mm hmm. What I’ve also noticed with a number of clients that I’ve been talking to is the frequency of communicating is more often and they’ve really enjoyed that, as opposed to previously maybe saving up conversations or things to talk about in a project for a meeting, which is more spaced out. So that frequency is increased. The other thing is meetings seem to be more effective. Yes, there’s zoom fatigue and ohh not another bloody zoom meeting. But when they’re having those meetings it’s like we’re a bit more switched on, a bit more focused. Have you found similar, do you think, as well?

Brigette Landy  04:56

Definitely. I think when we started we were probably not as effective on zoom. But over the months we’ve definitely adapted and put more structure in place to our meetings, and they are super effective. We get in, half an hour, we’re out, and we can get on with our day. But that time is so valuable as well. Yeah it’s been great.

Murray Guest  05:18

Yeah. And you mentioned change. Obviously, change has been frequent, rapid. Let’s throw in some more adjectives. 

Brigette Landy  05:27

Oh it’s painful sometimes. And, you know, in our world, we’ve got, we’re dealing with all of our clients that are in pain, we’re dealing with so many candidates that are in pain, downturn in business, redundancies, restructures. You know, it’s just huge change for people to deal with. And one thing that you taught me actually was that change is not, you know, there’s no start and end to change. I don’t think it’s, it’s more circular or goes in cycles. So, with the individuals in my team, I found that, you know, we might, one of them might be at the acceptance stage, but any small trigger could loop them back so quickly to fear and anger. So, one of the biggest things that I learnt was to expect that and not be so shocked when someone goes from that, you know, more positive end to the more nervous and frustrated end.

Murray Guest  06:25

Yeah, so I think that’s fantastic to expect it and make it okay.

Brigette Landy  06:31

Make it okay. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, not not fight that as well, you need to accept it and work with it and help that person along.

Murray Guest  06:40

Hmm. So for people listening right now, that maybe don’t have that insight into what it’s been like in the recruitment industry for the past, you know, six months. You know, no one would have obviously thought 2020 was going to start like this, what has it been like for recruitment? 

Brigette Landy  07:00

Look it’s been challenging, as I mentioned at the start, you know, I’d be surprised to hear anyone that said it hasn’t been challenging. But for SAS recruitment and HR, we’re quite lucky to have quite diverse service offerings. So things stayed fairly stable across our engineering supply chain and industrial businesses, had a little bit of a dip, but it was stable for most of that COVID period. And our HR consulting services, obviously, they had a lot of outplacement to do as you expect, but definitely not in my world. My world was hit the hardest. And my team. So I recruit, me and my team recruit, finance, administration, customer experience, marketing and sales. And the businesses that we work with anyway, they’re the positions that they got rid of, straight up, you know, they don’t, they didn’t need salespeople anymore. They weren’t looking to, you know, employ marketing people, even our temporary customer service and admin people, they were finished up earlier than expected, a lot of businesses had permanent staff that they needed to redeploy into those temporary positions. So we were hit really hard in my team, and that’s why I feel like we’ve probably experienced a lot more change than some of the other parts of the business. We restructured. We lost one person from our team. And yeah, that hit us all really hard. But in terms of the recruitment world it is coming back to life. Thankfully. It’s been really interesting, actually. As soon as restrictions lifted, businesses thought yes, we need to rebuild. Let’s hire salespeople. So

Murray Guest  08:51

The switch was turned back on straightaway.

Brigette Landy  08:53

Yeah turned back on, I think, in June and July, I think we had about 10 sales jobs to work on each month. And, you know, just for sales, after such a drop off during COVID, that’s pretty good. So and thankfully, we’ve got awesome candidate managers that were able to, you know, just look through our networks and, and fill those jobs straight from our existing talent pools. So it was, you know, really quick and easy processes, but really valuable as well. So that was really good to see, and other trends that we’re seeing at the moment is clients opting for unbundled services. So rather than engaging us to fill a role completely from end to end, recruitment, processing, or I guess, is choosing to engage us for a certain part of the process. So whether that’s, you know, video interviews, or whether it’s reference checking, or whether it’s searching and coming up with a long list and then handing it over to the client. So chopping up those portions and offering parts of the service as opposed to the full service has been really appealing to some clients.

Murray Guest  10:05

Yeah, I can imagine that flexibility in your processes that helps support different clients in different ways. And, you know, adaptability, number one showing again, awesome for the way that you can see, because I’m sure different clients have different needs. And that’s the individualness I’ve seen in companies and people and teams right now. It’s all very different, isn’t it? It’s not just, it’s impacting everyone the same way. Yeah. Well, I’m also thinking about recruitment being an emotional journey anyway, you know when someone goes for a job, or when someone’s hiring someone and they want the, the exact candidate they’re looking for to fit their team. And there’s additional emotions right now of how important it is. How are you ensuring that your team keeps their emotions up? And doesn’t take on maybe some of that heaviness with all the emotional journey of all the candidates and the people you’re working with?

Brigette Landy  11:04

That’s a really difficult question. But thankfully, my team at the moment are very resilient. You know, they’ve been through what was probably the hardest, it was the hardest time of my career, to be honest, that peak of COVID in those few months. So they’ve been through that. And I think now that they’re seeing some positivity out in the market, you know, they’re not carrying that weight as much anymore. Throughout the three months, it was challenging. As I’ve mentioned, you really had to help people through the change, make sure you connected with them, and stayed in touch with them, doing what you can to support them.

Murray Guest  11:39

And so I can imagine celebrating those little wins are really important along the way to keep that momentum and keep that positive energy along the way.

Brigette Landy  11:47

Yeah, definitely. We’ve had a few little team celebrations, obviously. So but you know, you’ve got to find little ways like that to celebrate, don’t you?

Murray Guest  12:01

Yeah. 100%. So 16 years at Forsythes Recruitment and HR. 

Brigette Landy  12:08

Yes! Why? 

Murray Guest  12:10

Well, congratulations. 

Brigette Landy  12:11

Thanks so much. 

Murray Guest  12:13

And as you know, in recruitment, that length of service isn’t as common these days as it used to be. So I think it’s definitely a testimony to the company you work for and the type of work you do. So that’s awesome. Great to celebrate this week.

Brigette Landy  12:28

Thank you so much. I’ve actually got a post coming out today that acknowledges that and answers a lot of the questions that I face when I tell people that I’ve been with Forsythes for 16 years. And especially because I’m still, you know, in my early 30s, I’m not in my mid 30s till next week. But yeah, it’s it’s, it’s been a ride, that’s for sure, but just so much fun. I work with such awesome people, they’re all a bunch of legends, very supportive, and would help you with anything. The team is awesome. They’re all really smart, really driven, like guns. They’re customer obsessed, which is a huge passion of mine, that customer experience and customer obsession. Which is another reason I say I love recruiting in that niche.

Murray Guest  13:18

So can I ask why recruiting? What drew you to recruitment?

Brigette Landy  13:25

I was thinking about this this morning, actually, I didn’t even know what the word recruitment meant, until about four days into my role at Forsythes. So I was just a little junior burger, straight out of high school. And I remember my first few days, and I was looking at all of these timesheets for temporary people that apparently worked for us. And I’m like, but where are they? And? Yeah, after a few days, I worked it out. Um, so I didn’t choose recruitment, to start with initially, but now definitely, I just love working with businesses to solve their people needs. And I love being part of that solution. In the CX world, in particular, as well, I just love the contact center leaders. You know, the key thing that they’re passionate about, or one of the key parts is people development. And I don’t know, I just love being part of that selection process for them and being able to provide that solution for them.

Murray Guest  14:30

Can you help me understand that customer experience area of the business you know, the call center, the contact center? What makes that unique do you think?

Brigette Landy  14:43

I love recruiting in that space because a lot of the time it’s not about technical skill set. It’s all about behaviors and personalities and culture fit and I get such a kick out of recruiting that sort of stuff as opposed to technical skill set.

Murray Guest  15:06

I can imagine some of those behaviors in those roles. And I’m reflecting back on my time when I looked after Consumer Services many, many years ago, it was about empathy, compassion, listening, a lot of those real people skills that really help you connect with somebody.

Brigette Landy  15:23

Oh, definitely, I think one of the biggest, well at the top of every criteria for us is resilience as well. And that can be a really hard thing to find when you’re recruiting for those sorts of people. And I like the challenge of that, finding that resilience in people. And contact centres are fun, they’ve always got, you know, good vibes, positive vibes only, is my latest hashtag. It’s just a fun place to work, a fun environment to work within.

Murray Guest  16:00

I just was thinking about the amount of our decision making, which is emotional based versus fact based and data based. You know, I bought a car recently. You know, when you go to a restaurant, or you know, all those fashion choices you’re making, there’s emotions, where do they come into play in recruitment, versus they’ve got the qualifications, and they’ve got the data, and, you know, I can do my spreadsheet of all the numbers, but what about the emotional side? How does that fit into your record?

Brigette Landy  16:31

I, when I first started consulting, in recruitment, so it was a couple of years after I’d started in my junior burger role, I based all of my decisions on emotion. So it was, you know, not necessarily how much I liked a person. But it was all about the gut feel that I had about a person. Over the years, I’ve learnt to find ways to evidence that gut feel. You know, it might be as simple as asking behavioral based questions that really shows the evidence that your gut feel is right about that person being the best fit. But we’ve also used psychometric assessment and other tools to find the evidence to back up your gut feel. So there’s a definite balance there, ways to prove that emotional connection. 

Murray Guest  17:26

What’s it like, how would you describe that emotion? Or that feeling when someone gets that role that they’ve been really striving for, dreaming about? And they get that, that opportunity?

Brigette Landy  17:40

That’s what it’s all about. It’s, that’s, that’s why I do it. And, you know, that’s your success. You know, offering someone their dream job and, you know, telling them that amazing news that they’ve been waiting to hear it’s, yeah, I just get such a kick out of it. It’s excitement. It’s just a lot of excitement.

Murray Guest  18:10

Do you get the chance to reconnect with those people down the track and see how they’re going? Is that part of your process?

Brigette Landy  18:16

Definitely. Yeah, we have check in points. So we check in on their first day, at the end of their first week, after their first month, three months, six months. You know, it’s really easy to stay in contact with our candidates these days through the likes of LinkedIn and social media. But yeah, it’s always great to see how they’ve progressed through that career opportunity that you’ve provided, or facilitated for them. And ultimately, hopefully, that person will become a client one day.

Murray Guest  18:48

Yeah, I’m sure there are stories over the years where that’s happened. 

Brigette Landy  18:53

Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah. That’s the ultimate goal. That’s what we strive for a lot of the time. 

Murray Guest  19:02

So obviously, recruitments changed right now, with, you know, physical distancing, and a whole range of other things. What has the process been like in recent weeks versus maybe last year?

Brigette Landy  19:19

It’s not hugely different for us. We implemented virtual interviews or pre recorded video interviews, I think it was about 2014. So we’ve been using them for over five years now. And that’s been a really, value add, like a nice to have for our clients. We pre recorded a video interview that our candidates then complete and we can send that video link to the client, with their resume, for example. So the client gets so much more insight, but now it’s a necessity. So it was really easy for us to adapt to that way of interviewing. But it does make those decisions a little bit harder as well. I think physical presence has a role to play in a recruitment process. So I guess you just need to dig a little bit deeper into those areas that you feel that you might not fully, fully know yet or or trust yet. But yes, it was easy for us to adapt to this new way of doing things.

Murray Guest  20:29

Yeah. Okay, gotcha. And I did hear the other day something about video cover letters, where people are applying for jobs as opposed to the handwritten or the typed up, cover letters. And I mean, I sound old, handwritten cover letter, who’s done one of those lately? Right. But a video cover letter, I guess that’s part of the process as well.

Brigette Landy  20:51

Yeah, definitely. So I came across a LinkedIn profile the other day as well, where a candidate, in her about me section, it was a video, selling herself, basically. So that was really cool. But these videos play such a vital role in the recruitment process now, even leaning towards, you know, customer experience touches and improving the candidate experience as well, as well as benefiting the client. There’s a little 1% we call it that we’re doing now in our virtual interviews, where this is our pre recorded interviews, where we’ll ask the question of the candidate, what is your guilty 3pm afternoon snack?

Murray Guest  21:34

Oh, I like that a lot.

Brigette Landy  21:35

And yeah the candidate might answer Tim Tams, or they might say, chocolate chip cookies, or they might randomly say, a green mango salad from Thailand, which is really hard for us to provide, but once the candidate gets the job, or once we get to meet them, we’ll provide them with their 3pm guilty snack. It just blows them away. It’s a really nice touch for the person. And one of those one percenters as we call it.

Murray Guest  22:06

Yeah. And I think that’s a beautiful question, which has got me thinking, what are some other fantastic recruitment questions that you have asked over the years, that you reckon that have really got people thinking? 

Brigette Landy  22:20

There was one we asked the other day that I really liked. And it was for a role where we needed someone who was going to be really naturally inquisitive. And we asked the question, okay, so say you’ve got a brand new iPhone. What’s the first thing you do? Do you rip it out of the box? And do you get into it and just have a go? Or do you read the instructions? And do you carefully back everything up? That sort of stuff? And the responses you got out of that were really interesting. There’s no right or wrong answer. But it just gives you so much insight into how a person approaches new technology, or problem. How do you approach change? It tells you so much outside of what the actual thing that you’re asking?

Murray Guest  23:06

Yeah, I love that question. Because it’s so relevant. And as you’re saying, it’s rich, you can get so much data out of it. And I love questions. I talk to lots of people about the power of questions and the impact they can have. And I’d love to share one that I heard and this may be one that you use, so please tell me, but the question was the, in the recruitment process to ask, Tell me what you’re like at your absolute worst? And what I heard was this leader would explain at my worst, when I’m when I’m grumpy, when I’m stressed, I might get like this, and so again, it shows vulnerability and openness. Now, I’m asking you, tell me what you’re like at your absolute worst? And I really liked that, because again, it’s building that connection early on.

Brigette Landy  23:53

Do you think you’d always get an honest response? 

Murray Guest  23:56

Well, that’s an insight in itself isn’t it.

Brigette Landy  24:00

It’s like, you know, the weakness question, which we don’t ask directly. But, you know, you don’t want to get, lots of candidates don’t want to, you know, talk about the negatives of themselves. But I like the way that you’ve worded that, I feel like that would get the right sort of response.

Murray Guest  24:23

Yeah, well, I think that the framing up obviously is important in that question, and lots of other questions, as to what’s my intent in asking that question. You know, my intent is to actually get to know you. Do I want to work with you day in day out? Can I trust you? I think that’s so important. Where do you think recruitment’s going in the future?

Brigette Landy  24:44

Look, there’s a lot of talk. I mean, after 16 years, you tend to hear the same stories over and over again, right. And I think for the last 10 years, there’s been a lot of nervousness in the market about automation, about technology, about LinkedIn taking our jobs in terms of being a recruiter, but technology will always play a role and it is going to be so useful moving forward as well. But in recruitment, you always need a human, you need a human side and human perspective, human input. So I could tell you all these fancy new things that we’ve we’ve got lined up and that we’re talking about, but at the end of the day, there’s a really nice balance of technology, automation and human input.

Murray Guest  25:39

Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. I think what you said earlier about the one percenters, and also the cultural fit, and the gut feel, they’re all, you know, extremely important in that recruitment process aren’t they and you can’t take those away.

Brigette Landy  25:58

Yeah, definitely. And I think the things that we’ve been really focusing on lately, and moving forward, as well as the candidate experience. The candidates are our resource really. And we want them to, you know, have the most amazing experience with us, we want them to be our biggest fans. So we’re always trying to find ways to make it better for them, to leave them with this amazing feeling.

Murray Guest  26:28

Yeah, and I totally agree. And I think my addition to what you’re saying, which I unfortunately don’t think a lot of companies do well, so I think recruitments generally done well. It’s even to the point of, let’s have morning tea, and welcome Brige to the team and everyone, let’s welcome. And then there’s inductions, and onboarding, and a lot of that good stuff. I think the area and please correct me if I’m wrong, that we could do a lot better in companies is, how do we let people go? How do we transition them out? How do we, if it hasn’t worked out, how do we say goodbye in a way that’s respectful? And no matter what the reason, I think the way that you have someone leave your company is indicative of your culture. And I think the other end of the process can be improved, just generally, quite a bit.

Brigette Landy  27:19

Yeah, definitely. And I think our outplacement consultants are all about that sort of stuff. It’s all about the the care and nurturing that you give someone as they’re departing an organization. But you know, we’re part of that process to an extent when it comes to telling people that they’re unsuccessful for a job. And leaving those people with an amazing feeling, after they’ve just been told that they don’t have a job that they really wanted. Our goal is to hope that they leave with a really great impression of us.

Murray Guest  27:55

Yeah, and some valuable feedback. I think that’s, I know that you guys do that really well. But I’ve heard and I have experienced in the past myself where you weren’t successful, and you don’t find out or you don’t know why. So that feedbacks really important. So I’d love to ask you about your Strengths. And it’s something you and I have talked about a few times and obviously in the past, you’ve done the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. And you’ve mentioned your adaptability. Just for those listening, Brige’s top five: Adaptability, Positivity, Achiever, Responsibility, and Woo. And I would just love to know from a personal or professional perspective, what’s been the impact of knowing your strengths?

Brigette Landy  28:46

It’s been absolutely awesome. It’s been so good, knowing these strengths and I guess they’re, they’ve always been with me as my natural go-to strengths. But just being so much more aware of them has helped me relate to people better, professionally, and in my personal life as well. I got Zach, my partner, to do his Strengths assessment. And that was really insightful for me. I thought I knew him. But yeah, it’s been really positive. I’ve even seen it rub off on my nephews. So it’s a little story I posted about a little while ago about when I heard my five year old nephew, his name’s Dylan. He was talking to his friend and he said, oh, what’s, what does your dad do? And his friend said, my dad doesn’t have a job. And Dylan goes, Oh, he should talk to my auntie Brige. And I was blown away. I’m like, What? He’s a five year old kid man. Like, how does he know what recruitment is? How does he know that I’m a recruiter. Um, but I think, you know, for me, my positivity Strength is all about contagious enthusiasm. And I think you know, given my enthusiasm for my job and what I do, I think that had just rubbed off on my five year old nephew. You know, he’d obviously taken that on board. And you know, that was really insightful for me. I was blown away by that.

Murray Guest  30:18

Did you give him a couple of business cards to hand out at preschool? Tell me, knowing your strengths, has that helped you? Because I think about all those conversations you have with people, whether that’s within your team, or potential candidates or clients, how knowing your strengths has helped in those conversations.

Brigette Landy  30:45

Yeah, I, it’s been most most helpful. Because it’s just been really insightful for strengths based leadership, I guess. I think talking to clients about what they want to get out of candidates in the recruitment process, and really being able to consult with them on, you know, this candidate is really good at this sort of stuff. So let’s give them more of that sort of stuff to do. Let’s not force them to do the things that they’re not great at, because they’re gonna see themselves, you know, failing or not living up to your standards. And that’s been the same with my team, you know, really offering them opportunities to do more of the stuff that they love, and are good at and want to do, rather than forcing them to do things that they’re not real good at.

Murray Guest  31:40

That’s a fantastic explanation of strengths based leadership. And I know that your whole team has embraced strengths and seeing how that’s helped them. And not just themselves, but then in the way that they interact with each other as well. And that’s, as you know, and we’ve talked about, it’s a journey isn’t it. It’s not like, hey, we’ve done our strengths, tick the box. Always new layers and new experiences with it. 

Brigette Landy  32:07

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It’s been great. 

Murray Guest  32:10

Tell me about you and Zack, though, from a personal level, what did you learn if that’s okay, about you and your partner’s strengths and how they complement or contrast?

Brigette Landy  32:20

Yeah, I think I can’t remember all five. But I know, consistency and discipline, were definitely in there, and harmony. So I think just knowing that, you know, knowing why he does things a certain way and knowing why he’s got to get up at the same time every morning and go through the same routine every day and have the same sorts of meals for dinners and all that sort of thing. You know, me being adaptable, doesn’t line up so much to that consistency piece. But just knowing that that’s where his natural instincts are, helped me understand him so much more.

Murray Guest  33:02

Yeah, I always come back to Don Clifton’s quote about, you know, what’s going to happen when we focus on what’s right with people rather than fixating with what’s wrong with them. And that, that example there about well, Zach likes this way of living, this way of approaching his mornings. It’s different to mine. And that’s okay. Except for when we go on holidays. Yeah, that’s right.

Brigette Landy  33:29

Yeah, that’s right, which is next week. Actually, I’m off to Byron Bay next week. We were meant to be flying to New York today. Following a road trip across the states, but Byron will do.

Murray Guest  33:44

Yeah, I think there’s a lot of people with stories like that. I actually read somewhere something like canceled holidays. The value of those is $6 billion, or something.

Brigette Landy  33:54

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. I’m definitely feeling for the tourism industry at the moment. Yeah.

Murray Guest  34:01

Now, just to wrap up our conversation on strengths. Which one do you think out of your top five do you think can hinder you the most? So you love those, and I can hear that in the way you talk about them, but is there one that you think or sometimes it can get in my way a little bit? 

Brigette Landy  34:18

I don’t know. I wouldn’t say they get in my way. But they definitely get in other people’s way. Like the responsibility and the achiever. I feel like those two definitely, some people see it in me and just go Brige’s on a roll again, let’s just, let’s just avoid her. I really am passionate about doing what I say I will do and I live by that. And if I’m going to miss a deadline, that’s a huge deal for me. It’s not really a huge deal for a lot of other people if it’s a small, insignificant deadline, but even those ones are a big deal to me. So I’ve had to learn, and you’ve been a huge part of this process Muz, learn to understand that, you know, while it’s a priority for me, it might not be someone else’s priority. And that because that’s not their strength, their strengths are doing other amazing things. So, you know, just to, for me to accept that. So I don’t feel like they get in my way, they probably do. But I know that the achiever and responsibility, you know, some people probably don’t appreciate.

Murray Guest  35:35

And I have responsibility number five, so I totally High Five you on that, I get that 1,000,000%. And I would say what strengths enables is that understanding, but also a way to articulate it to other people as to why it’s important to you. And then find that middle ground about how do we make that work?

Brigette Landy  35:56

Oh, definitely. And throughout…When did we first do our strengths? Is it a couple of years ago? Yeah, those last couple of years, our team has had so many conversations about why each of us do things a certain way and, and why we don’t. So it’s been massively helpful.

Murray Guest  36:15

Yeah, that’s awesome to hear. And I’m so glad to hear the conversations continuing. Because as we said a bit earlier, it’s not a tick in the box. It’s a journey of depth of understanding ourselves as we go along. I’m still learning about mine. And I did my assessment first time 12 years ago. So definitely still learning and finding out the little ways that they can help me be a better version of myself, that’s for sure. 

Brigette Landy  36:42

And have they changed at all in the last 12 years? 

Murray Guest  36:45

So based on the research, if I was to quote Don Clifton’s research around the point seven retest validity, so 70% of that dominant strengths are going to stay the same throughout your life, because they’re primarily from nature, and those early nurture years. However, the other bit too, that is, if you go through a major life event, they can change. So I would say after my accident at the end of 2018, my empathy was already low, but it’s lower. If it could be. My family’s well aware of that. And I would say my deliberative, though, deliberative has gone up. Deliberative being that deliberate decision making, weighing up the pros and cons, that risk awareness that definitely has increased, I’d say. And, yeah, and I think that’s understandable. I think the empathy piece comes from a bit of, well this happened to me, what you’re going through is not that important. 

Brigette Landy  37:51

I get that, too. That’s understandable as well. I reckon. 

Murray Guest  37:54

I’ve got to be careful about that. I think.

Brigette Landy  37:58

I just wanted to, say, give you a shout out as well, you connected me with a guy by the name of Luke Jamison. He’s a thought leader in CX and EX. And he’s actually presenting at our next CX networking session, which you would know all about, because you presented at the last one.

Murray Guest  38:19

And such a great network. I mean, we had a huge attendance. This is, I think it was the last one before COVID.

Brigette Landy  38:26

It was yeah. The lucky last in person. And we’re hosting them online now. So another, another fun zoom session, but it will be awesome.

Murray Guest  38:35

So yeah, no, Luke is a great guy. I met Luke through the Lego Serious Play certification we did together. He is an awesome guy, a great thinker, energy, sort of thought leader in that CX space and gamification. And it is a shame it’s not in person. But that is where we are. I’m doing a presentation next week to a networking group online. So another one of those. But yeah, great. I’m glad that you guys have connected.

Brigette Landy  39:06

Yeah, definitely. And we’ve already put the word out to our network. And they’re really needing it at the moment. They want something that, you know, can help them through whatever it is that they’re going through, which a lot of their struggles at the moment in that CX world is employee engagement, and finding ways to make things fun for people while they’re not, probably not in the office environment, or not in the contact center environment, a lot of them are at home, and I think it could be awesome for that.

Murray Guest  39:36

Yeah. And that that connection you talked about, and I think my experience in that CX world and of course, nowhere as big as yours, but that passion that people have for people, and then that connection, if they’re all been working at home by themselves, they’re missing that. So I think bringing that back in is is so important right now.

Brigette Landy  40:01

Yeah, totally my, my biggest problem with hosting this session is that I think with our zoom account, I think we’ve only got a maximum of 100 attendees. So I’m probably going to have to upgrade that because there has been such a positive response so far. I’m really looking forward to it.

Murray Guest  40:17

When is it on? 

Brigette Landy  40:18

On the fourth of September. 

Murray Guest  40:20

Awesome. Well, of course, we can also put, we’ll make sure the links in the show notes. We’ll put it out there as well. Yeah. So recruitment is all about people. And having that connection. So this is rapid fire. I only do rapid fire every so often, but rapid fire questions Brige. Okay, so people get to know you even more. Okay, you ready? 

Brigette Landy  40:44

I’m ready. Yep. 

Murray Guest  40:46

What is your 3pm guilty snack? 

Brigette Landy  40:50

Look at the moment it would be apple and peanut butter. 

Murray Guest  40:56

Okay, there’s no judgment here. That’s fine. 

Brigette Landy  41:01

Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. 

Murray Guest  41:03

Okay. All right. You play guitar. What do you like to play on the guitar?

Brigette Landy  41:10

The last thing I played was Nirvana. So I like I like acoustic grunge. 90s stuff.

Murray Guest  41:19

Nice. Okay. So question. Have you ever had a mullet? 

Brigette Landy  41:26

No, no. I’ve had an undercut? 

Murray Guest  41:30

Yeah. Okay, cool. Gotcha. What’s a food you really don’t like?

Brigette Landy  41:37

Peas. I love all vegetables. Except peas. I still will eat them. But I would never choose them.

Murray Guest  41:45

I’m going to talk about my wife here, she is to put the peas in the pockets of her dressing gown at the table cause she hated them so much. And emptied them out in the toilet or somewhere down the track. 

Brigette Landy  41:55

Oh, that’s awesome. I’m all for that. Go Tammy. 

Murray Guest  42:00

Where’s your dream holiday destination?

Brigette Landy  42:04

I love the United States. As I said I was meant to be there right now. Anywhere tropical, hot with some ocean or a pool. I’m usually pretty happy with that.

Murray Guest  42:16

Gotcha. If you were hosting a client in Newcastle, where would you take them?

Brigette Landy  42:23

Ah, this is a great question. So my favorite place to go at the moment is The Falcon, which is up on Pacific Street in Newcastle East, an American vibe bar. You can probably catch a bit of an American theme for me at the moment. So we’d go to The Falcon and then I’d take them along the harbour and the beaches and the Anzac walk. That’s pretty cool, too.

Murray Guest  42:49

It is, it is. And for anyone listening that hasn’t made it to Newcastle. Honestly, it’s the best in Australia, isn’t it Brige? 

Brigette Landy  42:57

Oh, in the world. 

Murray Guest  43:00

Awesome. Well done. That was painless, just some rapid fire questions there just to get to know you even more. So thank you. 

Brigette Landy  43:08

Thanks, Muz. I’m intrigued by that word, painless. To describe that. 

Murray Guest  43:14

Some people just don’t like those questions. But you know, related number one, I’m happy to ask anything. So that was good. So thank you, again, so much for this conversation, talking about recruitment, talking about your passion for what you do. I love what you do. I love the work of the team and Forsythes Recruitment and HR. So thank you. Your energy comes across fantastically. And speaking of energy, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Brigette Landy  43:47

I had to think about this. But I came back to what I had immediately thought when you asked me that question. And I feel like it’s doing the things that give you energy. So doing the things that really energize you. So whether it’s a certain task at work, or whether it’s doing the things that give you energy at home, taking the dog to the park, whatever it is, it’s the stuff that gives you energy.

Murray Guest  44:16

I would love to add too, if I may, I can imagine that phone call that you make to clients or to candidates when they get the job that they’ve been dreaming of, that must give you this energy that inspires you just go, right what’s next. Let’s keep going. 

Brigette Landy  44:34

Totally yeah, you’re spot on with that. 

Murray Guest  44:37

Thanks again so much. I’ve loved catching up chatting to you. And can I just ask if anyone wants to reach out to you, want to know more about the work you do and connect online, where’s the best place to do that?

Brigette Landy  44:49

Probably LinkedIn. I’m always on LinkedIn. So linkedin.com/blandy.

Murray Guest  44:57

Great. Yes. And you post some fantastic stuff on LinkedIn. I think it’s a really valuable what you’ve been putting on there. So yep, please keep doing that.

Brigette Landy  45:06

Yeah, that’d be great. I’ve been loving the posting and the engagement. And we started doing it during COVID. Actually, I started getting a bit more active and regular with my LinkedIn. And yeah, the engagements been awesome.

Murray Guest  45:20

Great. So one last question, though. I’ve just thought of this. I was gonna ask earlier, it’s come back around into my conscious. If someone is looking for a job right now, what would be your tip for them to take action on? 

Brigette Landy  45:38

Just one tip, or? There’s a whole heap of tips. 

Murray Guest  45:40

Give us hundreds. Well, just give us a couple.

Brigette Landy  45:43

Well, they need to get on to LinkedIn, and follow my colleagues because they’re always passing advice about how to look for a job. And you need to get comfortable with video. Definitely. And, and if you can access some free online courses about or not even free, if you happen to pay for it even better, but about personal branding, as a candidate, or a job seeker, you are selling yourself, you need to get really comfortable with that. You need to get good at that.

Murray Guest  46:14

Wow. And I’m so glad I asked that question because there’s some really good tips there so thank you. Brige. This has been awesome. I hope all goes well over the coming weeks. I’ll make sure I share the upcoming cx networking event in the shownotes and have a great holiday next week. Keep well and healthy. Look forward to a coffee maybe sometime in the future. 

Brigette Landy  46:37

Yeah, maybe in 2022. Thanks. It’s been great.

Episode 62 – Chris Dhu | Leadership through crisis

In this episode I chat with Chris Dhu about all things risk, response, learning agility and leadership.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Welcome Chris to the podcast, mate. I’m so glad you’re available to join me. I know you’re a busy man and busy is, I shouldn’t use that word because I know you don’t like that word very much.

Chris Dhu  00:13

Thanks, Murray, I’m very glad to be joining you for this podcast. Yes, I have, “my attention is stretched”, I refuse to say that I’m busy.

Murray Guest  00:23

I’m looking forward to the chat, beecause over the years, I’ve really enjoyed our discussions around leadership and culture, and also just the passion you have for and how important that is, in the work that you do as a leader in the business. Can I just ask first off, you know, it’s been a topsy turvy year. What’s your your reflection, you think might just on these past? It’s funny, I lose track of weeks? I know six weeks, eight weeks? What’s what’s your reflection from a leadership perspective? And from a personal perspective?

Chris Dhu  01:02

Ah, I’ll start from a leadership perspective, Murray, I think 2020 it’s not the 2020 anyone envisioned? Let’s just sight the bloody obvious. The great thing about 2020 is it’s given awesome people, particularly, the people in my immediate circle, but also in Australia, the chance to stand up. It’s a massive opportunity. And lately, leadership’s various, it’s quite easy when when times are easy. Yep, there’s been several individuals, both macro and micro level across Australia that are really set to the pount I’m prouder, then I’ve ever been to be Australian, I’m prouder then I ever have been to be a New South Wales of New South Welshen, so to speak. I’m proud to be associated with the groups that I do, given the 2020 request.

Murray Guest  01:57

I love that. And I remember years ago in my career, someone saying people remember how you behave when times are tough. And I remember, you know, going back 20 years when there was redundancies and organizational change, and how some people would respond, and as you said, some would would perform better and others not. What are some leadership attributes you think you’ve seen really shine in these last couple of months?

Chris Dhu  02:22

It really starts with the last quarter of 2019 by the State of New South Wales, specifically in the last quarter, of 2019 November/December facing some harrowing times and a lot of customers and constituency now of our business, faced some really tough times and it required a lot of people to stand up. A lot of people that have organizations and, and I was proud to be a part of that recovery effort and I was proud to be a part of it, of the way it was led, as well as very, very happy to fall in line and follow the leadership of the RFS and, and the way that that went through watching, particularly the northern part of the state, rally together in a time of need, we got five minutes to catch our breath over Christmas, and then the south of the state had the turn. Not that it should be referred to as a turn, but always, the focus shifted there. I watched all the organizations that were part of that recovery grow. The rapid learning, the learning agility, from quarter to quarter for 2019, to quarter 1 2020 was absolutely second and I was fantastic to be a part of. And certainly I was I was reflecting and learn off learn off each other very, very quickly. Then we went from a point at which we were we were facing a localized threat. And we were banding together. So it was requiring mass mobilization into a location and mass assistance to almost the counter offset in the way that we’re now in facing an invisible threat. And we’ve actually had to distance ourselves rather than respond in one location. So we’ve gone actually had people say to me on a rather face the fire, at least I knew where it was. Yeah, that’s an interesting insight. But watching the way people have taken the growth from what we what we experienced as a team, to then how we apply that to COVID It’s been fantastic.

Murray Guest  04:29

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s funny that, uh, not funny. I shouldn’t say you funny, but it’s easy to forget how bad things were at the end of last year and the start of this year, because with COVID times seem to have changed so dramatically from that time, but it’s good to reflect on that. And the leadership and the teamwork that so many organizations pulled together to, as you said, serve the community. I like how you actually mentioned rapid learning because there was that right I’ve heard I remember you and I were talking about earlier this year, how quickly people adapted and learn what they need to do change on the fly, to keep delivering on the work they need to do.

Chris Dhu  05:14

He was a really good example of that. The RFS Commissioner Rob Rogers watching salaries, first press briefings from from the north coast fire responses. And then watching the growth relative highs, I think that’s a that’s a real representation of what was going on in everyone’s world. And I like the way I actually see what we’re doing with COVID as a state and as Australia. A form of pulling together as much as that doesn’t sound quite right. That we’re pulling together. But it looks different, doesn’t mean it feels different. And I think it’s once again, it’s fantastic. Shows how quickly we can reflect, learn, and grow and reflect, learn and grow, keep going around that cycle. Every day is different. And what it builds is agility and responsibility, which particular is COVID code, it’s not going away, we were now preparing ourselves for ourselves for potential waves type approach on on off and that sort of stuff. agility is going to be the most important thing. And certainly, when I talk about agility, agility, and leadership is how we’re going to tackle that.

Murray Guest  06:29

Yeah. When you say leadership, I think not just leaders that have titles, but that’s self leadership and leadership at all levels.

Chris Dhu  06:37

And in all directions, leadership appears. Leadership Up, down, left, right. It’s incredibly important.

Murray Guest  06:44

Yeah, well, I may have lost track of time, but I think it must have been back around January, when you were down the south coast and how you were following the direction of the leadership of a whole range of different people doesn’t matter what level they are in the business, because that’s what was needed.

Chris Dhu  07:01

Yeah, that was quite interesting. I think this if I’m, if I’m right, and calling out the specific example, Murray, a member of I hit up, hit up the fleet function for essential energy. And as part of our for our bushfire response, we actually reorganized our structure as such, so that members of the team became hub response hub leaders. And yeah, I actually wound up being a response hub team member and reporting to someone that had traditionally reported to me which, obviously a really unique situation and a test of the strength of the team, that we’re able to understand that respected. Pay homage, to know why it’s there. And knowing that we’re committed to a common purpose, a common vision makes a massive, massive difference in that space. So yeah, it was a really cool, a really cool example of, of leadership, leadership agility, and ability, ability to respond

Murray Guest  08:00

Yeah, and I’m just reflecting on ego, and just throwing that out there that in those times, you can’t have an ego that’s going to get in the way of that agility. If your egos stuck in there, I need to be the leader, I need to be right, I need to be in control. That’s not going to work in that situation at all, is it?

Chris Dhu  08:19

No, not at all. And it’s its ego, ego or sense of self is, is can be quite destructive at times, at times, it can be productive as well, when it can be quite destructive when it’s not consistent with purpose. And that’s, the piece that’s really important there that the purpose of us conducting the response operations in the bush in the bushfire ravaged zones was that our customers were, you know, dire time of need, and we were there to provide the support. So having that laser light focus to that purpose, putting all the other stuff to the side and working together as a team. That’s, where that ego, all of a sudden slips away, I don’t like saying ego as a negative term if ego is aligned to that purpose, and it can actually be quite helpful. If it’s aligned with that purpose. If it’s, if it’s called a different intent or a different objective, then absolutely, that’s that’s distracting that needs to be that needs to be talked about. That’s a courageous conversation that needs to be.

Murray Guest  09:22

Yeah. You’re actually bringing to my awareness through that process and that support that you and the team went through how when there is a clear purpose, and we’re aligned in that purpose, how powerful that is. And a crisis and emergencies emergency situation gives you that. And then it’s about how do we take that to the day to day work? To make sure we are aligned to that purpose, day in day out?

Chris Dhu  09:51

Yeah, I think in that in that situation, and no different to COVID what we’re going through right now. It’s you can touch and feel and hold it. It’s a purpose. We’ve got laser-like focus on the purpose, because it’s real, it’s tangible. It’s relatable. That’s the challenge for anyone, you know, in senior leadership role as a new leader in a role is quite often beat the company, smaller companies, Every company has some form of vision, objective and purpose. And it’s always written iand clearly, you know, this is something I’m quite passionate about. It’s about how is that real for you? How’s that? how those words resonate with you? And how they, how they look and feel in your world? And are they consistent with your values. And that would be a big conversation that needs to be had. As soon as it becomes real, you can believe in it, and you can leave it anything less than it’s inauthentic. And and essentially, at that point in time, your visceral feeling a state of which I would hide you, or an idea that it might not be in the best and may not be leveraging your maximum potential but but unlocking that is really hard. I think the advantage of events such as bushfires and COVID, is it brings it into real Neato focus, which makes it easy to relate to but you’re right, doing it on a daily basis with a with a with a corporatized. Vision is difficult. That doesn’t mean we run away from it means we try hard.

Murray Guest  11:18

Yeah, yep. Now I made a comment to my wife the other day, I was thinking about your business and some similar businesses. And what I said was, I said that the businesses I work with, that seem to manage risk day in day out, seem to have responded better to COVID. So in my my work, I work with, you know, a whole range of different companies. And it seems like those ones that have a better risk understanding has a management perception and how they will go after that have responded better to COVID. What’s your thoughts on that one?

Chris Dhu  11:58

I think that’s a really good observation, Murray. And I think we could we could talk about this for an hour on risk. Obviously, I have a background in asset management. So risk management is something I’m really okay with. And without sounding like a broken record, I think this goes back to that tangibility again, particularly when Australia being nice working society that absolutely values worker health and worker wellbeing, which I’m incredibly proud to be a part of safety, in particular physical safety is really well understood. Which means things like risk perception, Hazard management, Hazard awareness, Hazard control, are really easy to talk about. It’s, I find it really interesting that the best, the companies that are really good at managing risk are quite often successful in their own right. And I can call that a number that, no, if you’re really good at managing risk, you’ll manage financial risks, social risk, cyber risk, sovereign risk, political risk, all in the same way that as you will physical risk. Having a really good understanding of what is important. So what actually, or actually say that the companies that are really good at managing risk, and particularly hazard awareness, perception and management, are the ones that are going to prosper and are prospering through COVID they tend to be the ones that see the opportunity and and see the see the the opportunity to pivot delivery models, for example, having good conversation with a friend the other day, and we talked about COVID. And the particular business he was he was part of he said, You know, COVID has actually not forced us to change our strategy. Our strategy hasn’t changed strategy of, of community and environment, which is what they’re in is the same, our delivery models change. So that’s actually because it’s not a strategy change. It’s a delivery pivot that does not require a structural change in our business doesn’t we’re managing that this way versus a business that is pivoting to a new product, which is absurd. Absolutely. Strategy change. Now we’re talking about ground up granite build their businesses that I see will go well, and are going well continue to go Well, I think the your point around physical high risk, high risk industrial businesses, we have we have an advantage, quite simply because we’ve we’ve had to get we’ve had a good because the the half life of impact from poor safety performance is absolutely it’s small, you have to be able to manage it really quickly, really well, really succinctly. That’s where so I think that that hazard management approach to short term hazard management is much better with those with those businesses, which is what’s coming to the fore.

Murray Guest  14:47

And I also think about managing a hazard you can’t see is part of the business that you do that you’re involved with. And we’ve got another one right now in this pandemic Yes, yes, the hidden or developing hidden or developing hazard management is always really interesting.

Chris Dhu  15:08

And we’ve actually been having a lot of conversations around this around trying to manage a hazard. We don’t have a real great handle on the likelihood we understand the consequences, but we’re not quite sure of the likelihood. And we’re now in a situation where we’re having to trade off some of that against existing risks. In my particular space or a managed fleet. We’re talking recently about social distancing, is there? Absolutely, there’s a fantastic control to prevent contagion of COVID. And that turning into the disease. One of the potential controls that was spoken with me about was single occupants in motor vehicles on the face very, very good as a risk control, definitely gonna control the spread of contagion. However, we also know that the most dangerous activity in the Australian workplace is driving motor vehicles. So in our increasing our exposure there, so we had a really interesting conversation around What’s that? What’s the arbitrage or the risk? If we’re going to take on more? Can we manage that? Because by introducing a control to control contagion, we’re actually eroding our control and road safety. So we need to consciously manage the bias. That’s the advantage that companies in industrialized settings have in this situation.

Murray Guest  16:29

Yeah, yeah, that’s, uh, yeah, I think that perspective of, Okay, we’re going to implement a control. And let’s think about what the impact of that control is. And does that introduce greater risk of flow on effect, the ripple effect, that may be an organization’s that’s not used to doing that would be unaware of. 

Chris Dhu  16:49

And this is where leadership starts to starts to move into risk management in the way that the world is in a vacuum. With that particular example, there is going to be situations where it makes sense to single person operate motor vehicles, because we will be able to control the existing risk in another way. However, that’s not going to be applicable everywhere. And this is where the leadership comes in that we need. We need people that are committed to our, to our vision, to our purpose, understand our values, understand what we’re trying to achieve. So we can make really great decisions on the fly in the moment that address the specifics and the contextual setting. Because the world isn’t a vacuum. Yeah, that risk leadership is sort of arrived. That’s a term that maybe it should be can see, here’s something that I think that’s the advantage of working in those in those high risk environments is much more comfortable in making those decisions and balancing, likelihood, consequences, outcomes and controls.

Murray Guest  17:56

So Mike, tell me, what’s something out of COVID-19. And the changes to ways of working that you want to make sure continues going forward?

Chris Dhu  18:09

I’ve been asked this question a couple of times, right. There’s 1000s and 1000s of micro things, which is a good way of avoiding that question. The I’ve, for quite some time, I am quite innovative, I do like to move around. I’m quite social. I do I do pride myself on being very mobile, hyper mobile, to use a term. That’s even myself, I’ve found I’ve had to click that for COVID It’s ironic that we’re a stay at home. We’re a stay at home as a principal and here I’m talking about being more mobile. It’s quite ironic, but I think being more agile is an in that being able to work is what we do not where we are is the piece that I’d love to see a part of it. The other the other piece, I think, is that now more than ever, I’ve never been a massive fan of the term work life balance. Primarily because I’m conscious that me saying that comes across quite negative. The reason I, let me turn that constructive. The reason I’m not I’m not happy with work life balance is because it immediately puts the two at odds. Which is, it essentially introduces a silo that doesn’t need to be there, you know, so me and my partner are talking about going through some changes now. And we’re talking about one of the things that particularly for me, that work is me is intellectual stimulus. And if I lose that, that’s going to that’s going to cause us a significant heart ache because I’m going to turn that intellectual knee towards our life may be different. So I think from that perspective, it’s actually blurred that line. It’s made it so blurry that it’s better I like that. Now we’re talking about life and power. What we do is work part of what we do is leisure part of what we do is sleep and all of a sudden, we’re getting better at actually making it homogenous.

Murray Guest  20:10

I agree with you because I feel like it that old saying, and we’re not the only one saying it, that work life balance is saying your life happens outside of work. And work is this thing. You have to, you know, begrudgingly do day in day out. And you know, thank God, it’s Friday, you’ve got it done. And then you can live your life, which that’s no way to live the other five days of the week.

Chris Dhu  20:33

Absolutely. And I think its really cool, especially having this conversation is a really deep reflective conversation with some of my team earlier this week, around alignment, your alignment to my wife, and Murray, you’ve heard me say I say this, I join a purpose, I don’t join a company. That’s, that’s my overwhelming motto. And we’re talking around the way when someone’s really committed to a purpose. And, and where it’s really hard, but having that extrinsic motivation, and we’re committed to a purpose. And when someone gets really committed, they can actually wind up starting to sacrifice some of their own welfare, wellness, welfare, whatever, financial could be anything. That’s actually that’s actually a sign of someone burning white hot. And it’s a it’s a short pass. So we’re having a really good conversation around how do we balance the intrinsic or self worth for self growth against the greater the greater girdle the extrinsic purpose, making sure, if it’s, if it’s 100% intrinsic, that’s someone that’s that’s likely got a value set that’s misaligned with the team or the company. If it’s someone that’s overly community company, then they’re likely going to burn white hot, and there may be some some damage being done that we’re unaware of this sort of if you can imagine as a spectrum of 100 to zero somewhere in the middle is the right answer. And yeah, and it’s our job as leaders to make sure that we’re balancing that so that we get a long term so that you know, they could the career, the the employee lifecycle is maximized, you know, that that’s the piece. So it’s a really cool discussion. And I think, what’s happening COVID will allow us to do that better, because now we’re not talking about business and personal work and life being separate, separate things that are in constant competition.

Murray Guest  22:20

I am seeing that, and I’m seeing that how people are thinking about people, again, as people not that they weren’t before, but it’s just come to the fore even more, you know, you’ve got people having zoom calls and online meetings, inviting people to their house in ways that they hadn’t before. And there’s this openness, and they are, you’re a real person, I want to make sure that you’re okay, going forward, and I care about you. And I think you’re right, it sort of brought that out even stronger, which is really powerful.

Chris Dhu  22:53

Yeah it’s splendid, the support network that’s around employee. That’s around a friend. Yeah, I think of, I now know, the support network around some of my best friends a lot better than I say, friend as colleague because to me, the word friend and colleague isn’t changeable. It’s not, there’s not so I now know, their support network. I knew the professional support network. Now I know the home support network a lot better. And we’re more open about it is just more open. It’s ironic that we’re more open about it. When we’re socially separated, together, it’s sort of counterintuitive, but it’s really great.

Murray Guest  23:32

Yeah, and I mean, I was asking you what you what you think is one of the good things out of COVID to continue. And I love what you’ve talked about with agility and that flexibility and that mobility. I’m thinking also about if I had another word that hopefully rhymes is vulnerability. I think that that has increased through this process, that openness.

Chris Dhu  23:54

Yeah, and and it builds trust. That’s the piece. That’s the piece there that that we talk we talk about humans and ultimately humans are fallible and ironically an expert is someone that’s, that’s just made collective certifies in a particular field. Yet we find it really hard to talk about them. And certainly that’s, that’s something that I feel we, through COVID we’ve gotten better at which has allowed us to build better levels of trust. That’s not not happening everywhere. But it certainly is moving in the right direction. And that would be my only caution with this topic is we don’t want to wind up in a situation where we have pockets of excellence. We need to make sure that the virtual rooms that this this creative growth is happening are connected, if that makes sense. And the virtual rooms are now now even less visible. Ifthat make sense? Youqnd I could be talking on on this particular zoom call and then after this zoom call you can be talking to someone in Western Australia could be talking to someone in New Zealand or somewhere in different parts of the world.

Murray Guest  25:05

Yep. 

Chris Dhu  25:06

We haven’t visibly left. So making that would go on in the caution with this with the with the increase in understanding of each other the increase the improving, or the increasing vulnerability, the increase improving trust, making sure that that’s actually across to the best extent we can across the board and not areas of, of hyper growth that are inadvertently leaving other areas behind. Because when we do come back together, and whatever the new normal is, as much as that’s the new normal, I don’t think is ever going to be settled. Yeah, that could be quite the stock, the stock sort of reality, restart of social dynamics and will require shock to the system. So let’s make sure we do that really smart.

Murray Guest  25:54

Yeah, and I’m actually thinking how important it is around the alignment of leaders. So that there is that alignment about how we are working now and what that looks like going forward. So that communication, that understanding that agreement, or in that alignment, so that that brings along a level of understanding and implementation in whatever that new normal looks like.

Chris Dhu  26:20

Alignment of leaders is really interesting, outside of behavioural alignment, so beliefs, attitudes, behaviors, alignment, that should absolutely be something we’re working on every single day and, having courageous conversations if it’s not there, because the problem certainly doesn’t get better with age. Or what I’m seeing is there’s a lot better alignment around our use of our use of attention and I called it out at the start, I’m not a massive fan of the word busy. And there’s a bit of contextual setting required here. Take it give it time is a really, really easy thing to measure, arguably one of the easiest metrics in the world and that makes that things are easy to measure tend to get measured. And ironically, some of the software platforms that we use consistently in business, Ie outlook are designed to be very sticky, they make it make it feels good to manage your time and feels like we’re achieving something. I’m also consciously aware that if I take give it give it time, 10 hours, or 10 hour block, for example, I don’t have 10 hours of attention, I can’t be present for 10 hours, I’m gonna weigh in, in and out and so very conscious with where I place my attention. And I’m very conscious whenever I’m sort of looking at how my day is gonna play out, for example, this this particular zone, very high intellectual load, very high attention requirement. The activities I’m doing in the side of that, I would deliberately, deliberately make sure therefore information or I’ll be clear with people that I’m within virtual rooms. In this case, I’m just coming out of a really intense session. So I’m here and I’m cool to have a light chat but lets park any heavy stuff.

Murray Guest  28:06

I hope this isn’t too heavy for you.

Chris Dhu  28:08

It’s enjoyble, it’s enjoyable. But I think that’s that’s the piece that’s gonna be really interesting, as we as we graph back to hearing locations, again, is how do we better manage the tension, because time is a really poor proxy for and I think this has been given that there’s been some level of standardization, ie we’re all looking at a camera or a monitor at the moment. We’ve essentially sat established a control. So now everyone’s having to think a little bit more about attention and how it relates to time. Because we’re all not moving. We’re all now doing largely same activities sitting in chair looking, standing looking. It’d be really interesting to see how that conversation evolves, as we move back into office environments, and sorry, co located situations. How do we how do we maintain that focus of, of let’s not manage time anymore? Let’s manage our attention and refining  our attention to

Murray Guest  29:05

Yeah, and I think you’ve mentioned courageous conversations a couple of times. And I like to think they are happening more at the moment. People are having these conversations because they need to, and that they continue in the new world, where it’s like, okay, where did where’s the attention at? Where is it not? And having that, and not just slipping back into old habits, which weren’t serving was very time measured.

Chris Dhu  29:31

I think you and I have discussed the the, the book, it’s it’s The Manager, it’s and it’s its posture of managers to coaches, I think is a term I have the terminology wrong.

Murray Guest  29:45

No you’re spot on. Yep.

Chris Dhu  29:46

The I think there’s a really there’s a really, when we hear the term managers to coaches really easy to go towards coaches being highly, highly motivated, highly motivating individual and that absolutely, it’s true. I think of the best coaches that I’ve worked for both in a professional setting personal and sporting settings. They are very motivational individuals, and they draw their motivation from absolutely, absolutely a commitment to a higher purpose, a vision, a objective is forging code, it might be the winning of something, for example, in a personal setting, it might be some sort of life life goal. A really important piece of that of being inspirational and demonstrating commitment to undying purpose for what a better way is to show and to absolutely show when an expectation isn’t met. And to make sure that that’s clear. That that’s really important to do. And it’s something that I think the professional world or use the word I think they’re with intent think your professional world has grappled with a lot, too, we tend to jump straight towards transactional management, ie X amount of widgets per hour, as opposed to behavioral and belief type management. Yeah, really kind of see that stay, to stay. Because at the end of the day, if we if we’re managing, we can’t act our way into a belief we can’t act our way into an attitude that absolutely has to be intrinsic can call. That’s I’m really keen to say that particularly stay into the into the New World, we’ve had to transition without with a with a new operating model. We’re now there’s a lot less colocation, there’s a lot less oversight. So we’re now relying on people’s intrinsic motivation. A lot more. Yeah, we’re now realizing we have to manage it, we have to own it, we have to understand we have to talk about that. So we need to transition that back to the work environment, when the transactional measures can be done better. That doesn’t mean we go back to them, if that makes sense. Literally, like the whole times easier to measure, therefore it gets measured.

Murray Guest  31:59

Yeah, of course. The paper I just want to add to this element, too, is we talk about manager to coach, I like people to think about coach like, so if you think about the attributes and the behaviors of a coach, asking questions, Unlocking Potential being really present, helping someone support their development. I think that’s what this is about, too. So how to managers leaders do more of that. And bring those ways of working and ways of being that a coach does into their management practice.

Chris Dhu  32:34

Yeah, yeah, I think and as far as that coach, like, could also add the the road mapping types here, I want to use Word planning, but that that forward looking, certainly conversation that we’re having a lot within within the leadership team that I’m a member of at moment is around where we’re now transitioning into winter, in Australia. We’re talking Yeah, we’re now seeing shorter days, we’re seeing colder weather that has a significant impact year on year, on top of influenza and everything else that comes with that. I see a significant mental impact year on year. That means it’s going to be amplified this year. So what the one, the one thing we do have in our at our disposal now is time, and we must use it wisely. Because if we don’t, once again, this probably isn’t gonna give it this probably isn’t gonna get better with it. So let’s talk about now let’s make sure we’ve got active strategies. Now that strategy may just be as simple as raising a conversation allowing people giving the people the freedom within a framework to actually solve it. Or it could be something more didactic or transactional I don’t know, but at least important things we start the conversation. And to me, that’s, that’s a coach’s role. That’s that piece that we need to be asking the right questions to make sure that we’re setting up setting up for success. Yeah. And equally, you know, that requires a really open and transparent relationship with with the teams that if we’re seeing something doesn’t quite sound right for them quite as well, right? Hey, this good chimes let’s rise. And let’s let’s talk about

Murray Guest  34:14

Now I want to just wrap that up, because want to move on to some other topic. But I think what you’re also reminding me of something I’ve picked up in the positive change through COVID-19. And that’s been a more frequent focus communication, with leaders with teams, where previously it might have been Let’s wait for a period of time to have a meeting and then we’ll discuss it but where what I’m seeing from the good leadership practices, we’re talking more frequently more focused, and people find that really valuable. So it’s giving that that more regular and frequent conversation.

Chris Dhu  34:53

Yeah, and old ads that no more frequent and more focus but also more topical, as well. Now saying, particularly I think of mine, my world, I can now I can now attend a meeting in three or four different parts of New South Wales, with three or four different teams in rapid succession where historically, I would have relied on being there in person, potentially. 

Murray Guest  35:20

Yeah, gotcha.

Chris Dhu  35:20

That’s that that means that I can now deliver a much more focused conversation because I’m now walking from one team or silo walking from one team to another, and delivering a very focused message because I’m still on that topic. But it’s also a topical message, I’m able to get that information to to that team faster. So that half life of communications really should slow down. So get information out as quickly as possible.

Murray Guest  35:57

Yeah. All right. I’m going to try something with you. Here we go. Some rapid fire questions. 

Chris Dhu  36:03

Okay. 

Murray Guest  36:04

Let’s see how you go. What is values based leadership?

Chris Dhu  36:11

Values based leadership is commitment to a common purpose and alignment of personal and extrinsic goes.

Murray Guest  36:20

Ooh, you’ve done well, to answer that one in such a short fashion, because I know how passionate you are about values. 

Chris Dhu  36:26

You remember so? 

Murray Guest  36:28

Fantastic. Now, tell me when you say and I’ve heard this quote from you before? I don’t know what report I need till I see it. Tell me what that one means. 

Chris Dhu  36:41

Yeah, reporting is really, really interesting in so many different ways. I’m sort of answer your question with an example of a brief period of my career where I spent some time in a in a BA role. And I was I was taught by a very good friend of mine, that a really good bi one, once again, to go back to values based leadership understands, understands what needs to be done, it acts in a very ethical way ethical and aligned to, to the objective to the common objective. That means the VA can quite often understand what needs to be done, and how to get there. And for exactly, yeah, that could in this particular situation, I was doing some stuff around maintenance, maintenance analytics, and there was some things that didn’t quite seem right. For example, sugar compliance was was the standard deviation to compliance was incredibly narrow, which, you know, if you think of a traditional maintenance managers perspective, you know, the maintenance manager is likely likely to thumbs up, to thumbs up moving forward type thing, as in that roles are bi and having experienced, you know, minus managers role was actually seen. That doesn’t sound right. We need more Dean. As a result, by acting with that with values and ethically ethically aligned behavior, I was actually I will try and cover some some anomalies in which way that so there was, there was ways we could manage better manage the department better. And I was able to present that to the maintenance manager and say, Hey, I know, I know, the headline number looks okay. But there’s some stuff in here that we can do better. Now that that particular maintenance manager at that point in time came to the assault, but didn’t even know they’d say that. Yeah, gotcha. That in three years, you think of that, that’s where a statistician, a statistician starts to make that step into into that analyst will the leadership world, we’re able to improve that departments performance. And what what that actually short story, what that actually uncovered was, was some stuff around system, the system was very, very hard to use. And so as a result, attainment team and figured out ways to use it, that that actually will enable them to deliver what they needed on a daily basis. But it didn’t, it didn’t actually, it didn’t help the engineering team actually improve the assets while maintaining. So it turned out it was actually a system driving behavior rather than behavior driving system. So but I think if if we had if we had someone in that role that had basically delivered on the requirement of the maintenance manager, which was I need to see show your compliance data improve, it would have never happened. Yeah. And so that’s where that saying comes from. And it’s amazing how often you when I sit with my own team, and we might start with a question, and it might be Yeah. What’s our What’s our risk profile in relation to incident incidents involving crimes? That might be the question and that could take you down 25 different reporting ones, which which reporting line you go down is really important and that’s heavily recorded. On one side.

Murray Guest  40:01

So first bit of feedback, rapid fire questions are out the window. And that’s, that’s okay. Because I love it when you give me this, this data, this information is insight. And I love how you linked the BA role and I don’t know what report I need to I set back to values based leadership and creating a culture of values love and trust. Because as a BA, you couldn’t have done that if you were trusted and empowered.

Chris Dhu  40:29

And absolutely in this this, trust and trust is such an important word and is it’s commonly used, seldom understood would be, would be the way I’d term trust that it had trust and trust has to be it’s obviously a genuine, genuine attribute. And if you’ve got it, it’s just the glue that makes things work. And you don’t know, don’t know why things are working, but they just work. And then when it’s not there, it just feels like it feels like a big gearbox. And none of that none of the gears are sticking together, you know, it’s just grinding all day long. That’s what it feels like that that particular that particular example that team that I was a part of. We we had we enjoyed fantastic success. But when I’m when I think back to town with a smile on my face. Now when I think back to that time, the success we enjoyed wasn’t in the form of financial returns to the business or anything, anything of that nature, the success we enjoyed was actually working more by having a really trusting and open relationship and having that that framework and the freedom to work within Tyler, it drove up all of our engagement, we were actually committed to the to the common theme we were there to do. And as a result, we’re all highly engaged. We all enjoyed working with each other things just started to click and people are removed at a time we would have people come and speak to us and say, Oh, you know how it has it’s working. So well. Why do you think this works? so well? And none of us would answer the question was as an artist, and I think that comes back to that trust base was knowing what I know now or my answer would have been?

Murray Guest  42:08

Yeah, yeah. Great. I’m going to give you another test, though, on the rapid fire questions, mate, where we’ve got a little little bit more time. So my question is around, if you could articulate the role of leadership, and successful culture transformation. If you could pass on, you know, a couple of tips, let’s just say two tips to someone to a leader who’s listening to the podcast, if you really want to lock in cultural, cultural transformation. You know, what, what would you say those key tips for a leader? Well, I’m trying to think of two, you can go one or 50.

Chris Dhu  42:58

Easily 50. The first one would be don’t understate it, I just don’t understate it. The transformations that I’ve been involved with, it’s very easy to get caught up in the strategy development. Really easy to for that to happen. And largely because strategy development is is very rewarding, equally for myself. So it’s a bit of self feedback when you get caught up here as well. We’ve all heard we’ve all heard the sayings in culture eats strategy for breakfast is one of the most common ones. Once again, it’s around my ear not real for you. It’s when we’re when we’re looking at a strategy and we’re saying, Hey, we want to go, we want to we want to head in this direction. We want to take this hill really sit down and understand. Okay, well, what is a cool quote, culture look like to take that hill? And obviously there’s going to be there’s going to be overarching, which is what we all need to know why we’re doing it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I would add to that, every individual needs to know why taking the hills important for them as well, that goes to that, that piece around intrinsic extrinsic motivation. So it’s a why, why for me, type thing. And then there’s all the other little pieces that go around it. What are we, if we, if we’re aiming to increase our cadence, for example, to go to go after that goal in the short term? What’s the backside of that require it we can’t sustainably increase cadence unless we make structural meaningful change. If we if we increase our cadence and we don’t make change, all we’re doing is driving everything harder and driving everything harder. Obviously, shaunc shortens the life cycle. So when you start talking about doing that with humans, obviously engagement falls off and return rates for the meaningful measures going the wrong direction. So making it Real making the car what when? How does the cultural I personally I like to start with a bit of a bit of discussion dialogue, type stuff with with key key team members, key stakeholders, I like to use the toy, my go to tool is a cultural web, I’ll put that up on a wall with a whole bunch of sticky notes. And so right over there with our rituals for examining its rituals, control structures is one of them. Routines is another symbols isn’t a sticky note, or it’s a symbol. So we want to say, Yeah, for example, if we’re, if if we’re say cleaning, a large turnaround of an industrial facility, or structure might be very important for that, because that’s a critical requirement. When you’re running your turnaround, we’re going to structure with hard with hard start and finish type things. Or we might have hard roll guides. That’s an important symbol, for example, that that start, you start to pick up all these all these things in touch and hold my starter if they can’t, is that consistent with the culture or build a culture? If they’re if they’re inconsistent with the culture, they wrote it? So that’s a really cool tool, right? And then, and then you start to refine that down into into a brand. Yeah, I’d say brand is probably better terms for that. But what are we who are we in certainly in the team that I’m leading now, we sell on the three words of resourcefulness, initiative, and professionalism. That’s what we are. So, for example, if you think of a, if you think of a routine, think of a ritual for professionalism, it may be preserved, but we don’t move our leadership team timeslots, we leave them where they are. And if we can’t, if we can’t make it for whatever reason, we provide a really good, it’s mutually shared accountability, we provide a really good reason to the entire team, not the leader to the entire team on why and we do that using different communication methods. But that’s, that’s important, because we are professional.

Murray Guest  46:59

And links back to your point earlier about, then they’re not just words, what do they actually look like? How do we how do we know how we’re going to hold each other mutually accountable? What are those behaviors that go with it? Mate, I’m mindful of our time. That’s, you know, getting close to 50 minutes has been fantastic. And we haven’t even touched on strengths, something I’m passionate about. And I know you are. So that’ll be conversation number two, I’d say. 

Chris Dhu  47:24

Very good. 

Murray Guest  47:25

Plus a bunch of other stuff I’m sure we could talk about. I want to thank you, mate. Thank you so much for your openness, your insight, the the perspective you bring to leadership and culture, and even the openness and sharing upfront around the experiences you’ve had in the past, you know, six months as a team and a business, and what that’s been like, and what’s that shown and some of those lessons out of that. So I know that was really valuable for everyone listening. So thank you so much. Thanks for thanks for the opportunity. And I look forward to continuing the conversation. We will now you can’t get away with giving me your definition of inspired energy. You have given me one beforehand, which are going to be honest, I absolutely love it. But I’ll put you on the spot and see if you can remember what you said or what what comes to mind right now.

Chris Dhu  48:16

In the spirit of openness and honesty, I can’t remember what I said the first time inspired energy. I was immediately on the spot right now and say inspired energy. It’s a form of energy that’s unlocked. It’s unlocked by commitment to a greater purpose. And it’s an apparent obviously it has the purpose has to be aligned with your own with your own personal values and your own personal goals.

Murray Guest  48:50

That’s pretty spot on to what you said. 

Chris Dhu  48:55

Consistent.

Murray Guest  48:56

That is it consistent it is. Again, thanks so much. Can I just ask anyone listening, If you got something out of this conversation, don’t hesitate to share it online. We’d love to know what you found out of this. We feel like we’ve covered a lot lots of great insights from Chris from his leadership, perspective and, and journey and, again, Chris, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time, mate. Keep well keep healthy and I’ll talk to you soon. 

Chris Dhu  49:21

Thanks mate.

Episode 61 – Aaron Kearney | Journalist & Director of AKS Media

In this episode I chat with Aaron Kearney, a multi-award-winning broadcaster, photo-journalist, and sports commentator. The Director of AKS Media International, Aaron is in demand across the globe for his experience in broadcasting, commentary, storytelling and innovation.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

So Aaron, welcome to the podcast. I am excited to be chatting to you today. My memory of you goes back a long way, early 90s watching you cover my brother’s rally stories on sport on prime. And then over the years, we’ve connected a range of times and of course, they’re being listened to you on the ABC and now you’ve moved on to doing different things, mate, how are you?

Aaron Kearney  00:28

The answer to that changes almost on a minute by minute basis at the moment, but I don’t think I’m Robinson Crusoe there. I think everybody at the moment, is a short walk from a rooster to a feather duster and back again. But no, I’m great. And actually, for all of the challenges, and there have been many in recent times on it’s given me lots of cause for celebration and lots of cause for calibrating how fortunate my circumstances are, you know, I wouldn’t want to be an eighty year old woman in a fifth floor walk up in northern Italy right now put it that way.

Murray Guest  01:06

Yeah, well, I think that we were just talking off air before we started the podcast about that gratitude and perspective. And that’s something that I’ve certainly, I’d like to have gained more of this year, and the clients I work with, they’re talking about that as well. And appreciating those little things in life. So for you, and this past couple of, you know, months actually feels like years. I don’t know how long it’s been

Aaron Kearney  01:28

Same sort of thing the other day saying, I can’t believe how young I look in photos from this morning. Yeah, so that

Murray Guest  01:39

it is a bit like that. Tony told me on your you know, your gratitude list or perspective list at the moment? What’s at the top, what are you really appreciating at the moment?

Aaron Kearney  01:47

Yeah, it’s interesting that you say that, because at least part of the lockdown experience has been, I feel like me personally. And as a family. In some ways, we’ve been training for this in a perverse way. In, for example, each night, when we sit around the table, we actively have, we go around the table and do somebody who’s in my thoughts and something that I’m thankful for. And recently, we’ve added in a success that I had today, because of its excesses might have been a bit feeling public. So we’ve done that as, as a ritual. And it is really a ritual. I mean, obviously, the five year old begins a certain kind of answer and, but what it does is it momentarily makes you get out of yourself and the business of life and actually take a drone I view with only for 30 seconds. And so we’ve done that system, medically over time. And now it suddenly feels really important and really functional and whatever. And so look, without diving too deep on philosophy too early in our chat, I live my life with a series of benchmarks. And I look at my imaginary perfect scenario, and my imaginary horror scenario. And if I do that, I’m generally running about an eight and a half or a nine out of 10 at any given point. And that remains true even in the challenging circumstances. So I’m very lucky to live in Australia, both practically, you know, we have more sunshine, and it’s easier to socially distance, and there’s state recreation area, you know, 500 meters from my home, all of those sorts of things. And then, you know, there’s the the freedom that we have here, there’s all of those sorts of things. The people who are locked down with I’m quite fond of everybody’s experience.

Murray Guest  03:54

Yeah. 

Aaron Kearney  03:55

And you know, and I am healthy. And on some level, I’m afraid of COVID. But as with all things in life, I feel like I’ve, I’ve given myself the best chance of surviving it if it comes my way. So, I mean, I’m thankful on every single level.

Murray Guest  04:13

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think this is very similar party self appreciation, and even that preparation for right now. As a family, we have been connecting more over dinner, and we used to play the alphabet game every night and different things. We’ve started topic jar. So topic jar is at night, which everyone throws a piece of paper with one topic in it into the jar, and then we draw one out and then you’ve got a week to prepare and then present that back to the family. And we’ve had a whole range of topics from why mullets are cool through to black holes and where do they come from? So it’s like a big range. But again, it’s that connection with family, which, you know, is one of those little things I think that I’m hearing a lot of people really appreciating right now and and it Like you, I’m happy with who I’m connected with and, and within the, in the home. Yeah. Um, so is there anything you’re missing?

Aaron Kearney  05:11

Ah, yeah, I mean, I miss travel my entire life was travel in 2019, I had, arguably the best and most successful year of my life, I worked in 22 countries, I went to Oxford, I went to a world cup, we created all sorts of history that I had that I had, I knew 2020 was not going to be able to top 2019 I didn’t think it would get so far under the bar of 2019. So, um, you know, I miss my life, I had a really, really good life. And it doesn’t mean as I’ve just said, it doesn’t mean I hate my life now, doesn’t mean I’m miserable. I’m not. But there was a lot of awesome about my existence that has ceased to be at the moment. But again, that’s a very selfish or inward looking way of doing it. You know that. There’s also 50,000 people in the US right now, who wish they had my things to complain about, you know, so yeah, yeah, I’m so awkward picture. Yes, I missed it. Yes, I miss Tara, I do miss terribly. And at times, like, let me put it this way, I was talking to a friend the other day. And this is said, without judgment of other people, this is just about me. If life is a poker table, right. And in February 2020, we’re all sitting around, some people had $50 worth of chips on the table. And some people had $100,000 worth of chips on the table. And so therefore, if you lose the hand of 2020, some people lost more than others. So I feel like I had a really fat stack of chips that went away from me in the last couple of months.

Murray Guest  06:58

Yeah, and, and I think what I know from you is that you really appreciated the work you’re doing last year and the travel, and maybe now it’s like, I appreciate it even more,

Aaron Kearney  07:09

Unquestionably. And part of the buisiness of all of that was you were in the car driving at a high speed the whole time. I’m talking metaphorically. And so those moments are paused. Why do I love it? What am I achieving? What is my motivation? there perhaps wasn’t a lot of time for that reflection. And I have certainly had, I mean, this is going to sound absurd, but I mean, we were watching a TV series. The other weekend, there was like an international diplomat who landed and was met in a car and driven and then met with the politicians about, and I was sitting there in my underpants. Because that was me. So yeah, you know, there’s, if you have been fortunate enough, and yet, it’s hard work and all that sort of thing. But there’s also a hell of a lot of fortune. If you’ve been fortunate enough to carve out a life that you enjoy. And then obviously, you’re going to miss it when it goes away.

Murray Guest  08:23

Yeah, I very similar to you. I do it was doing a fair bit of travel with clients around the place last year, I doubt 

Aaron Kearney  08:28

I would often see your backside disappearing out of William down airport. 

Murray Guest  08:33

Well, I don’t miss the train trip to Sydney, Particularly one on the way home. Now I just want to talk a bit about that fantastic work you’re doing in the Pacific. Just to help everyone understand the impact and the type of work you’re doing the Pacific and how Sport and Sport journalism was making such a difference. Help us understand what that means to the people of the region that,

Aaron Kearney  08:57

Yeah, it’s the actual logistics and the process. And all of that is complicated to explain. I know my mom gets frustrated, because she used to be able to say he’s on the TV, or he’s on the radio. And everyone understood now it’s quite difficult for me to explain what I do. But basically, I had a number of prongs to my work. I was in and M in, even though on the holding pattern in international media development. So that manifests in a range of different ways. So earlier this year, for example, I was in vanderwaal to teaching mobile journalism. So if you’re on a remote island, like the ones that were just hit by tropical cyclone Herald, how can you create some cohesive news coverage and get it back to home base that they can then be distributed to the world? So international media development from a sport perspective, it was for example, last year, we did the first indigenous Pacific language coverage, so we need a guy and bislama have a Women’s World Cup so I trained those commentators and took them to France. That’s what it looks like their sports deployed. So for example, in the last week, I’ve been involved in scripting, some stuff for the young Matilda’s who have done a diplomatic outreach to the victims in the Pacific, not only of COVID but also of how there’s the international sports development stuff and we can get into that if you would like that. People who there is a nuanced distinction between sports development and sports for development and very briefly the tweet version is this sports development is when you go to Tonga and see 120 kilos highly athletic Jonah Lomu style 15 year olds, right? And you go, I’m gonna get him for the Auckland warriors, or I’m gonna get him for the Newcastle Knights, and then you bring them out, put them on a wage program, get them patient, that’s sports development. Right? So, who is building a new grandstand in Vanuatu that is also sports development. sport for development is where you create a school’s program where eight year old boys play against eight year old girls, I’ll give you a perfect example. I’ve just done a social video in my earlier trip to Vanuatu, they have a program called spider ball, which is modified water polo. And essentially, the game incentivizes equality, you know, unless the girls are involved, you know, do as well blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it is using sport to develop a society. And so I’ve been involved in a in the delivery of that, but overwhelmingly in the communication, your face and communication. So if you’re in walger, you can see how your tax dollars are at work in something like this. And if you’re in Korea bus, you can learn about how disability sport is changing people’s lives. So Geez, if that was the tweet version, you wouldn’t want the war version. But yeah, you can see why it’s complicated. Yeah, but

Murray Guest  12:00

I can also, I feel like it’s a much more in depth sort of program. Like you’re saying, yes, it’s important to identify natural talent and develop that in someone and give them every opportunity to achieve their level of performance. But I’ll be honest, the second part of that story is a bit that gives me the tingles, that’s the bit that lights me up. Because that’s got this, this ripple effect. It’s called longevity. It’s impacting societies and communities. I bet you get the buzz when you’re over there doing that,

Aaron Kearney  12:33

Hugely so. And it’s addictive in a number of ways. To pick up the thread that you just said there, though, the why it matters so much is because in this post colonial environment, in this era of identity, and egalitarianism, which is entirely appropriate, sport, music is another and food is another but they’re not my expertise. Sport is a language that is ostensibly egalitarian, it’s mano a mano, it isn’t fair for a whole heap of reasons, you know, from drug use, or nutrition programs or training to coaching levels to facility, right, but it is ostensibly 13 on 13 men Oh, man, oh, woman Oh, a woman? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, and so it, it is a way to communicate through a mechanism that is not speaking down or speaking up. It’s right. So it’s very powerful in that regard. It is also a delightful parable for all of the big lessons of life, sometimes you play really well and lose, right? Sometimes it’s all about you shining as an individual, sometimes it’s about you playing your role in it, right. So all of the things that we love about the sport and equally applicable in that environment. So there’s all of that. And then, for me, personally, I made documentaries in Africa 20 plus years ago. And that went away because of the Asian currency crisis and whatever that was, where our money was coming from. But I always dreamed of going back into that developing space. But until digital disruption, I wasn’t a doctor or a teacher. So there was no value in my skill set. It’s only been in the last few years that my skill set has been marketable or valuable in those environments. And so I’ve looked at the chance to go back.

Murray Guest  14:41

Yeah, and I know that when you and I were talking about this conversation about pivoting and the pivot you’ve made from being a journalist to the type of work you do now. And actually, I know that when you did those documentaries in South Africa, you had some interesting moments.

Aaron Kearney  14:57

Oh, but yeah, I mean, we got, I spent Christmas Day, or I bought the same the year but I spent Christmas day there was a series of civil wars. The Sudan’s hadn’t split at that point, for example. And essentially, we were at a border, there was all sorts of confusion. We nearly died on a number of occasions, we had a lot of gunplay, and essentially, we were stamped out of one country. And then there was a no man’s own minefield to the next country. And we couldn’t get across it. So we spent Christmas Day effectively unassigned citizens citizens that have been stabbed out of one country and not into another. And we actually got to the other country by following goat herders through the minefield because they knew where the landmines were, and we’re not more importantly, well, and so we followed them through. I mean, yeah, there was lots of hairy moments. And like, I say to people, it was simultaneously one of those experiences because the wind for months was, we were to give context, we were making documentaries about an expedition that was the first in history to go from the Cape of Good Hope. So the, the very bottom of South Africa, to Alexandria, which is on the Mediterranean Sea. So in Egypt, so we went the full length of Africa entirely off road, and your extraordinary experience terrifying. If at any point, at any point, you would come at me and said, there’s a chopper, do you want to go home on a jumped on that thing in a heartbeat?

Murray Guest  16:43

Yeah

Aaron Kearney  16:44

So I was scared, and it was so deadly. And I genuinely thought we were coming home. Having got through it, it was the formative experience of my life, probably.

Murray Guest  16:56

I this may be hard for you to wrap up in a statement because I admire your ability to communicate. What on reflection now of that formative process, and you know, the journey you went on? What’s something that you’ve taken from that for the rest of these years to to now?

Aaron Kearney  17:17

Yep, I can give you I think, a succinct answer to that. And that is that our way is not the only way. That is to say, as you move through life, and it can be people who look and sound very similar, like you and I, who ostensibly have a lot in common, but we move through the world in our own unique ways, well, then that is exponentially more the case if you are in Samoa, or Sudan, or Somalia, or South America. And so essentially, being a journalist, and all of the other work that I’ve done is that I’m just a student of humanity. I just like learning how people work, what drives people. And what I have taken away from that experience, and then leveraged into all of my other travel and all of my other learning is that I want to understand, maybe I am doing things the very best way they can be done. Or maybe I’m just giving them the very best way they can be done for me. Maybe in some wisdom that can be drawn from, you know, 1000s of years of culture, whether it be indigenous or Pacific or African culture. And not only that, I just really want to spend some of my time on the planet, talking to people who aren’t exactly like me.

Murray Guest  18:42

Yeah. So I’ve just now I tell me if I’ve invented this, or I’ve just heard it. As you’re talking, the phrase that pops into my head is magnified curiosity. I feel like you’re already curious. Yet the Curiosity is gone. Let’s go 10 times.

Aaron Kearney  19:00

Let me illustrate your point. back at you with an example. There was when I was working for the ABC, there was a back when the ABC had money. There was a consultant that came from the US. And she said, I’ll let you in on a little secret. There’s really only one rule that we apply, there’s 10 commandments, but it essentially boils down to one rule when we are choosing talent, as they call it, people to talk on the radio or the television or whatever. And she said, You have to be infinitely interested in everything. And she said, You are like a Labrador puppy. You mercy. You. You know, sniff that Not that I’ve ever run around behind that look over the head and say yeah, and I mean, I used to be embarrassed by that level of enthusiasm. I used to try and suppress it. And now I don’t I just own it. And you know, I am what I am and I’m not apologizing for it.

Murray Guest  19:55

So as you know, mate I’m a strength coach, and I focus on strengths and so I’m just hearing your strengths and saying yes embrace that be that that is who you are. I’m wondering that it said dad was a journalist. Was there anything else you wanted to do when you were younger? Or was it following in dad’s footsteps was the path?

Aaron Kearney  20:15

No, he was quite strident in wanting me to not be a journalist. I’m not entirely sure why. I mean, it’s not a way to get rich, I know that much. I mean, I think he had a, a fulfilled and interesting life. So it’s hard. I’ve never actually asked why he didn’t want me to but he was quite enthusiastic for me not to do it.

Murray Guest  20:43

Well, what did you want to do when you were?

Aaron Kearney  20:46

Law, I did work experience at Newcastle courthouse. Yeah. And I really liked the I had a quite romanticized idea of you know, addressing the jury and having the decision overturned, you know, and a bit of time working in Newcastle courthouse squared that out of me real fast.

Murray Guest  21:06

So while you’re doing your work experience at Newcastle courthouse, I was at the Newcastle Herald. 

Aaron Kearney  21:13

Oh, work? Yes, that’s right. I’d forgotten that. 

Murray Guest  21:16

So that was my work experience. You know, wanting Yeah, but I also had long hair I wanted to be Michael Hutchins. So that’s 

Aaron Kearney  21:29

That’s a that’s a fun duel, ambition. Newcastle heralder, Michael Hudson. 

Murray Guest  21:37

So but then obviously law after experiencing that wasn’t for you. And journalism.

Aaron Kearney  21:44

Yeah, I went into comms journalism comms at Newcastle University and got a placement as you had to do work placement. And I turned up at the Maitland Mercury, which was my local paper, and they were lovely. But they basically said, Dude, we haven’t got time to witness you go and find something. So I think I produced like three stories that week. And some the timelines a little blurry. But some months later, they came back at me and said, there’s a good issue.

Murray Guest  22:18

Yeah, great. Yeah. Now I’ve got something that I want to throw at you. And now it’s talking about us catching up. And that is I growing up I thought about journalism as truth. And it’s like when you turned on the radio at six o’clock for the six o’clock news. Sorry, I turn on the radio got the TV. 6pm News, that if you read in the paper, that was the truth. And in recent years, there’s a term of fake news that has started to get thrown about. And there are articles out there which have clickbait and they have this sort of way of you know, sensationalizing whatever’s going on. At bloody frustrates me. Because it’s like, the truth is still there or a perspective on what’s happening, which is a element of truth. But then there’s all this other stuff. I just wonder where it’s going. And I wonder what your thoughts are about where it is now, and where we are going to ensure that integrity of journalism? Sorry, big question

Aaron Kearney  23:26

Yeah, big question and what I’m trying, what I’m trying to do is, pick a pathway that won’t take up the rest of our time. To answer here is my hope rather than my fervent belief, here is this is what I cling to, to address the problem that that you’ve just raised when you get your first job when you’re Michael Hutchinson anycast. All right, and you get your $66 a week, I’m probably showing my age, and you think to yourself, I can eat McDonald’s drive thru three meals a day if I want. And so you do prove it right. And then you wash it down would be that night and after nine months, or 12 months or whatever, and your belly is hanging over your belt and your face is full as its you guys. I don’t know if this is a healthy way forward. For me. I feel like social media is the McDonald’s drive thru and the $66 and that people gorge themselves because they could and it didn’t really matter that you ate some disgusting food from time to time because it wasn’t your lifestyle. But now we’re deep into that process and people are waking up and going, oh my god. If you are what you eat, then you most certainly are what you read and consume in the media. And if I don’t start putting some fiber in my intellectual diet, I am going to be in deep deep trouble when you see people like why even as we are facing a global crisis because we don’t have a vaccination. Why is anti vaccine on the rise? Because facts as you describe them, ceased to have value when information became ubiquitous? Once upon a time information had value that was what you learned. That was my expertise that I had. And I shared with you right? Now you can google everything, there is no mysteries. So information got devalued and emotion got empowered, right? Because the value is I feel something that there’s your angry face on Facebook, right? There’s your happy face. So now everything is emotionally ramped up informationally rent down. That’s how you get this this disproportion. So we find ourselves in a situation where when people feel like they do right now untethered, the world’s out of control, everything I thought I knew is gone. conspiracy theories take hold because they give meaning they tell you that someone’s in control. Right? Are you with the orange? Do you think he’s running the show? Right. So I, what I hope is that I am I am not. I neither the general population nor me particularly has any effect if I continue the food metaphor of eating three Michelin meals every night for our information, listening only to classic FM and reading on the Oscar Wilde, right? Yeah. But at the other end of the scale, if all you are reading is Breitbart, and conspiracy theories and anti vaccine and Instagram influences. My fervent hope is somewhere in the middle, we’re gonna open subway, where you can have some nice choices, some healthy choices at a reasonable access level. And so yeah, I think I feel like flushing through I feel Yeah, to some degree.

Murray Guest  26:50

Yeah, it’s like, well, there’s there’s not a switch. Not that there’s a spectrum here where the pendulum swinging, too, and it’s gonna sit somewhere in between all that,

Aaron Kearney  26:58

And there’s no universal answer either. I’m like, it’s easy to be romantic for that time of facts, right. But as you say, they will somebodies facts. There are indisputable facts. If you walk out of a second floor building, you will plummet to Earth right here. But then there are other things is Scott Morrison doing a good job, you can apply some facts to make your butt ransom. I don’t we don’t need to explain that. But what is easy to romanticize is that there was always boobie magazines, and there was always people and there was always what was the one use of the world or whatever, right? Yeah, garbage has always existed as well. It’s just you had to go looking for the garbage ones. Now the garbage finds here.

Murray Guest  27:40

And I actually think the other big challenges that confirmation bias that’s running, which a lot of people aren’t aware of, but they’ve got and it’s, I’m going to, I’m going to go and look for that data or that information to confirm what I already think. Yeah. And then that feedback loop in that circle.

Aaron Kearney  28:01

And we all are, right, there’s a there’s a there’s a there’s a psychological phenomenon that says what you see is all there is right? If you live in the Philippines, you everybody’s Asian when you say he’s Asian, if you live in Western Sydney, and you your reality looks like united colors of Benetton ad, right? If you live in West walls, and in Newcastle, you think everyone looks like you went on there, right? So. So we all have confirmation bias, where the problem comes is not knowing enough to know what you don’t know. That is to say, I’ve given some of the best years of my life trying to engage people who I really value, but who are doing crazy stuff online because they go well, all I’m saying is why isn’t there a shadow on the flag on the moon? I’m just raising the question. I’m like, No, no, no, no, you don’t get to raise the question. You have to find the answer. You know. 

Murray Guest  29:11

It’s like, I want to throw this thing out there and kick it around, or on a throw it out there and walk away. I’d only want to kick it around.

Aaron Kearney  29:17

Totally. And, and then you say to them, well, that’s utterly disingenuous. No, I’m just I’m just having this. Okay. So you think you’re divorced from your opinions? Do you go out there and say you think pedophilia is alright. So yeah, that washes, see whether you can divorce yourself from your opinion. So part of what I’ve always struggled with, and funnily enough, I’m struggling with it right now, because I’m being a bit cheeky and playing around online and my social media, you know, telling,

Murray Guest  29:45

I’m enjoying it, by the way,

Aaron Kearney  29:47

Eyebrow raising jokes and that sort of thing. And part of it always is, is that I’ve never known a world where my name and reputation was not attached to the media that I produced right? Once upon a time that was like a byline in a newspaper. Then it was what came out of my mouth on the radio. Now there’s the social media aspect of it. And what’s hard for me is that I realized that there are lots of people from different circumstances who don’t actually put any cache in their own opinion. They’re just talking about, you know, they’re just saying it because they’re saying it. And I find that hard. That’s a foreign language.

Murray Guest  30:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I think about, though, like you’re saying the junk food analogy, it’s always been there. But it’s now more readily available yet. But there are still some very good sources for information. And I think sometimes it’s about directing people to an alternative source. And sometimes, you know, just to throw another metaphor out there, you can lead the horse to water, but you’re not going to force it to drink. So we’re going to we can put it out there, but a tough time, we’re making those choices to whether they’re going to actually read that or actually absorb that information. 

Aaron Kearney  31:02

I know that everybody’s solution to every problem is make teachers teach it in the curriculum, or whatever else. And so I’m not that guy. But what I do think is this, that the two themes that you’ve raised in the last five minutes here are going to be two of the most critical resources that any individual can have in the front half of the century. And that is one to actually understand critical thinking, to not only be able to execute it, but understand what you’re doing, right. So it’s not enough to be able to pass the ball, you have to understand the science of how you’re passing the ball. So to understand and execute critical thinking, and also to have high levels of media literacy. And where I get very anxious, is it sometimes attributed to Paul Keating here, I’m going here, I am going to perpetuate a lie. Right? So I don’t know who said it but we’ll credit it with Abraham Lincoln, right. But somebody said, and I required it often is that if somebody has got an eight second solution for you, it’s no solution, because all the eight second problems were solved 300 years ago. But we are in a world where we are in a world where eight seconds is all you’ve got to solve my problem, man, I’m a busy guy. Well, you got we got your eight seconds solve my problem solve my problem solve my problem. And you know what you can do in eight seconds, all you can do is come to me and go. You’re not the problem. That guy over there is the problem. And I got Yeah, good luck with that. Good. Yeah, that’s right. So I’m really, really worried about this idea that in a world that only has patience for simplicity. The only way forward is to embrace complexity.

Murray Guest  32:59

Yeah, and be okay with sitting with the complexity and having the deep conversations on a narrow topic, as opposed to just the surface level. Eight second conversations, it’s the main, it’s the tweet. 

Aaron Kearney  33:16

And, again, I’m a Pollyanna. I’m an eternal optimist. One of the things that I’m hoping will come from this crisis that we’re all living through, is that we will in fact, realize that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are of equal value, that we will indeed get some, we will return some kudos to people who have given 20 years to a field of study, and not give their opinion equal value to Elon or Whoopi Goldberg or Andrew bolt or whatever else that that actually we will weigh opinions better, and that we will continue or we will return to a world where expertise has some value. 

Murray Guest  34:04

Yeah, I must admit that is something which, to be honest, I hadn’t thought about. But now in hindsight, thinking about those experts getting the coverage they deserve for the years, they’ve put in a certain field of science of medicine, and decisions or policies being made on what they bring my Pollyanna to build off your phrase there is what does that look like more broadly in everything we do? Because that would be you know, let’s listen to the experts. Not because my uncle studied medical science, so I’ve got a good idea of it. No, actually, everyone’s got a good you know, let’s use the experts.

Aaron Kearney  34:45

So let me put it to you in your field then, right. This to me is where the rubber hits the road in terms of authenticity. You have your business and Your program, because you are bringing a certain amount of expertise to the table, right? You believe that you have a special knowledge to impart in your realm. Right? But that’s not enough. You also spend a lot of time making that a product that people can sit and consume, right? You make it entertaining, you speak the language that people want to hear you gamified all of those sorts of things they do right and more all of my work. So what? How does one rationalize that? Do you at one end say, Well, I don’t actually care what got them in the door? They ate at my restaurant? Guys, if it’s the guy spinning the sign, so be it. I know, they ate good food in my restaurant, right? Or do you say to yourself, no, this is this is too important for me to prostitute my message. So I’m drawing the two poles, the answer is somewhere near the equator, I think. And that’s what we’re all pulling. But but it’s a genuine thing that I dwell upon often, how much do you treat information with an expertise with the gravitas that it deserves? And how much do you market it?

Murray Guest  36:23

So it’s great to see this podcast is going to go for three hours. 

Aaron Kearney  36:29

Part One of an eight part series, the Muz and Az show!

Murray Guest  36:33

It’s such a great conversation and a good good question. And I think you’re right, there’s somewhere in the middle there where authenticity, people’s BSD, their bullshit, detectors are really strong, they can tell if you’re not being real, you’re not being honest. And I combined that with also being open and saying, This is what I know. But this is also what I don’t know. And what I don’t know, I’m here to help you find that out or to actually defer to someone else. So part of my role, and what I do is, as a facilitator owner, facilitate the learning out of the group. And I love that. And I know what I bring is the ability to do that, versus I’m mentoring you because they’re two very different things.

Aaron Kearney  37:20

Let me share with you something that you might find useful. Certainly some people listening to this, you’re welcome to steal it, because I think it’s absolute gold. So I had all sorts of first world white male middle class anxieties about going into developing nations and teaching in inverted commas. And, and the reality of it is, all of those things are unfounded, because there’s actually a prejudice in even thinking that way. So we’ve been setting that to one side. My opening gambit, when I’m dealing with a new group, is I say, what I want you to imagine is this, that we are at a cocktail party this week at this workshop. And I am the dude with the tray of hors d’oeuvres with the shrimps and the avocado, crab and the bumblebee. Now I know because I have a certain level of expertise, and I have worked around the world, I know that everything on this plate is edible, right? And I know that I can take this plate somewhere, and somebody will find something on it delicious. What I want you to do is to sample what’s on that plate that I bring around this week. I don’t expect you to eat every single item that is offered. What I actually hope you’ll do is go That’s nice. But if I gave that a coconut treatment, that would be perfect. In my restaurant here in Samoa. Right? Yeah. So I actually walk that through as a psychological process and say, pick it off, taste it, I’m not expecting at all to be for you. What I do hope is that a you’ll find something delicious and be your then take that and improve upon it for your own personal circumstance that I can’t even imagine what that circumstances. And Gee, I find that’s an effective opener, because it empowers those, you’re not talking down to anybody. And it actually invites them to take the morsels that you’re presenting and elaborate that for their own circumstance.

Murray Guest  39:17

Can I say I love that analogy. And my build is and when you taste this morsel, don’t just taste at once. Yeah, dont just use it once. Because I think sometimes we can taste something like that and go, yeah, that’s okay. But I’ll go back to whatever else I was eating before, or I might just try it once. Because if we want to use one of those, we’re gonna eat some of Aaron’s beautiful platter of finger food. Let’s actually try it over the next couple of weeks and see how it looks in my restaurant and how it works for me.

Aaron Kearney  39:53

100% And actually, I’m sure in your business in mind as well. That’s one of the biggest challenges then You have to say you will not actually get maximum results from one engagement.

Murray Guest  40:06

Yes. 100% Yeah. Now I’m going to quickly change the subject because I’ve got a question for you which you could talk for a while and but just want to quickly know your perspective, my friend, and that is sports taken hammering over these past couple of months. with major codes around the world, you know, pausing stopping, however you want to frame it up. It’s I know, a lot of people look to the sport as their religion in some way, you know, lifts their spirits brings them together, as you know, as pack animals as humans, we come together. And there’s some recent reports around the future, the elite as well, which is a concern. I also wish we had a basketball team in Newcastle. Sorry, yeah. Yeah. Mate, Wait, where’s it going to be? Honestly, you know, 12 months from now, six months from now.

Aaron Kearney  40:59

I heard somebody say on another podcast recently, I’m not in the business of predictions and forecasting. What I like to do is explore scenarios. And I feel like that’s really useful, because I think making predictions is a fool’s errand. But here’s what, here’s what I think. successful sports going forward, whether this be at franchise level, grassroots level, elite level. So often you see billionaires from coal mining or whatever else who get involved in sport, and fail spectacularly. And the reason why they fail spectacularly is that the skill set that makes you great at moving coal trains, right, screwing people down on price, clarifying your supply lines, having certainty around delivery, all of those sorts of things that give you value and turn you into a billionaire in that realm. Have no cachet. In the world of sport, in the world of sport, you are selling a sense of community, a sense of connection, and a sense of hope. And the sports that can, the hunger for those things has never been greater, the appetite for paying $150 for a jersey, and being watching people shoot up tin cans at the weekend when they should be socialized, relating, yes, the appetite for that has never been less the sports that come out the other side of this and can embrace the format in an authentic way, and resist the latter and reinvent themselves beyond that corporate mess. Those are the ones with a tomorrow.

Murray Guest  42:54

I thank you so much for that. And there’s a bit that I’m adding an artist one to think about as well. And that is the perspectives that players are getting out of this experience. And again, I’m I’m theorizing here, but the the journey for a lot of players for a lot of coser last few years has been meteoric with certain conditions and pays and salaries that are just amazing compared to the average person. And this new perspective that a lot of people you and I included, and the sports people in this process that are getting, hopefully also supports that new grounding, not just of the codes, but also of the players as well.

Aaron Kearney  43:43

Let me bring the conversation full circle and reiterate your point to you. So I particularly love working with para athletes when I’m talking about storytelling here working with para athletes, working with athletes in developing environments, and working with women. And the reason why, and this is a very broad brush. And I mean, there are many remarkable exceptions to what I’m about to say and kudos to them. We have some of them in this town. But your bog standard methodology for an elite male sports personnel is you’re identified at 13. You put on your weights and nutrition program at 14, you were siphoned off from the rest of the world, you were told you a special and you have an agent who talks about how many zeros are going to be on the indoor number. It doesn’t make you an interesting person doesn’t give you perspective, it does not make you well rounded. It does not educate you, right. If you’re somebody if you’re somebody who lost their leg in a lawn mowing accident, or has had to put themselves through nursing college while trying to be captain of the Matilda’s or whatever else the thing is right. You have an engagement with reality that is so much more interesting and illuminating. If less profitable, Then the next scenario that you’re talking about, and I just feel like, Look, barter. We’re kidding ourselves. So we think, you know, the Barcelona starting 11 is not going to be worth a billion dollars in five years time it very much is. But I do think that bolo, that crusty LA, I think that the the sands are shifting and there are new possibilities. And I mean, part of the positioning I’m trying to think for myself is if I have this vision, and if I believe this can happen, how do why happened to that process, as opposed to just observe it? So it’s one of the things that’s on my thinking quite at the moment.

Murray Guest  45:39

Thank you so much for that perspective. And I’m mindful of our time, and this has been, I’m gonna say part one,

Aaron Kearney  45:48

As you can see, I don’t really like talking, but I’m more than happy to do it as a favor. No, no, I would I would love to engage in and because you like me. It’s big ideas. And big ideas demand more than glib answers. Inevitably, it was going to go this way. So like any time, any circumstance, and as I say, that doesn’t even have to be in this forum. We can. When we’re all allowed to get together, we’ll sit on a stage and talk rubbish one day. 

Murray Guest  46:18

Oh, that sounds like a great idea, my friend now. Thank you so much. It’s been honestly, such a joy to talk to you. But also, I feel like we haven’t done justice to the impact you’ve made in communities and I’ve your career as a journalism and what you do now. It’s been a privilege to chat to us. And I value your perspective and value the impact you make. And so please keep doing what you’re doing. Thank you so much. 

Aaron Kearney  46:45

Beautiful words, thank you. And you know, I, people like you are the ones that made me have the bravery to quit a very nice salary in a very safe government organization and go out on my own and try and do something remarkable to believe in my strengths. And that’s that still makes me squirm to even say something like that. I don’t even like talking like that, but to embrace in my my strengths, and try and leverage them to do something that is beyond the ordinary. So yeah, back atcha. I really value what you do. And I’ve had a blast talking to you today.

Murray Guest  47:22

Yeah, thanks, mate. I know, they’re not easy decisions to make that leap.

Aaron Kearney  47:27

If i’d of known covid was coming I might have kicked it along the road, 18 months, but I’m looking forward to that whole 14 favoring the brave thing.

Murray Guest  47:40

It’s just a little bit further on. Now, just to wrap this up, you have given me your definition of inspired energy, and it’s what this podcast is called. And I’ve heard that today. Do you remember what you said? Or can you repeat it? 

Aaron Kearney  47:56

What did I say? As soon as you tell me. 

Murray Guest  47:58

Well, I’m gonna I’m gonna be no disrespect to anyone I’ve asked this question to before. And I said to Tammy, I said, I love already. The anticipation I had for having a chat with Aaron because his answer was, and I’d say this with all truthfulness, inspired energy is the offspring produced when dreams and determination have a passionate affair. 

Aaron Kearney  48:24

What a tosser! 

Murray Guest  48:28

I want to know who wrote that for you? Because that is beautiful.

Aaron Kearney  48:31

I’m pretty sure I’m pretty sure that must have been on my daily inspiration, Instagram. Not at all. I mean, I tell you what, that articulate. When you approached me about doing this, you know, I was under a, a wall of stuff going on. And where we started this conversation, saying you have good moments and bad moments. And I was zooming out and having a lot of thoughts about that fortune five, you know, going out What does it mean? What is it and I had inspired energy and I had inspired energy, but inspired energy was what motivated me to cut my safety ropes and do what I did a little over 12 months ago, and that is because I had drive and and I had a dream. And so what is that if not inspired energy?

Murray Guest  49:27

Yeah, 100% I, I can hear it in your voice. And I can feel it. And that’s the more important part. So thank you. 

Aaron Kearney  49:38

No, thank you. It’s been a blast.

Murray Guest  49:41

 Awesome, mate. Have a great rest of the week. See you in 2022 or whatever it is. 

Aaron Kearney  49:48

We’ll get within 1.5 meters of each other. 

Murray Guest  49:52

Thanks mate.