Episode 73 – Paul Dunlop | Lean, Leadership and LEGO!

In this episode I chat with Paul Dunlop, who works with organizations to implement change and improvement through lean thinking and methodologies.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Paul, welcome to the podcast, looking forward to connecting. We were just chatting before the recording and I love your energy. I love what you bring. How’s life? 

Paul Dunlop  00:13

Life is good, Murray, it’s great to be here. And thank you for having me along. Pretty excited to talk about a bit of Lego. But um, yeah, life is good, life is different with current circumstances. But yes, it’s great. I think I’ve been able to, you know, use that horrible word pivot. But do things a little bit differently and think a bit differently with some of the, I guess the time I’ve had? 

Murray Guest  00:41

Yeah, there’s some new words that have come out this year isn’t there, there’s pivot and pandemic, while they’re not new, they’re just getting used so much at the moment. Hopefully, we’re bringing some different words in 2021. 

Paul Dunlop  00:54

Absolutely, that don’t start with P. 

Murray Guest  00:58

Well, you’ve got a whole bunch of P-words that you, you know, those pillars that you use, or the companies you work with, they’re people, process, play and profit. And I want to talk a bit about that, and the work you do with different organizations. But one thing that really attracted me to what you do was just this phrase of chaos to calm. Tell me where that came from.

Paul Dunlop  01:25

Um, I guess that, well, it funnily enough, it came from my clients’ mouths, not mine. So what I experienced was client by client, organization by organization, that these are the words that they would use, this would be what the organization would feel like when you when you walked in. So being I guess, a lean person, what I tend to experience is chaos in the process, that chaos, you know, people working very, very hard to achieve the day to day outcomes. And like I say, you can you can literally see it play out you can feel it, there’s a lot of emotion, you know, the environments are very reactive, there’s a lot of firefighting going on, a lot of short term thinking. So that’s that chaos. And I’ll literally get phone calls these days. And people say I’m in bloody chaos I need help Paul, and that’s what it is. Where is, you know, the other end of the spectrum, the calm, is what a, you know, again, to me what a real lean organization feels like whether we’re using, you know, the lean word or not. It doesn’t feel like much is happening. And people have time and space to actually think above the day to day process and be more strategic or think about improving their process or their culture or their problems, whatever it might be. So yeah, that was an easy tagline to get.

Murray Guest  03:00

Yeah, and I love that, as you said, it’s come from those interactions and conversations with your clients. And I can imagine, you know, the the shift that lean helps bring from chaos to calm. What’s your 25 words or less definition of lean for those people that may not know much about it? 

Paul Dunlop  03:22

It’s a very good question. 

Murray Guest  03:25

I want a lean answer about lean.

Paul Dunlop  03:27

Yeah. I might struggle with that. Yeah, look, lean. I think lean means many things to many people, depending on your experience. I think from the outside looking in, many people see lean as a, perhaps a bit of a quick fix. It’s more to do with cost cutting and ruthless efficiency and all of those things. So there’s a lot of misconceptions around it, which often when I’m engaging with, with clients, and with people, it’s dispelling those myths, and it’s almost talking about more what lean isn’t than what it actually is. So for me, lean is a, it is a way of thinking. Full stop. So there’s lots of tools and there’s lots of buzzwords, and all of those sorts of things that surround lean. But essentially lane is about creating engagement in your organization. It’s about creating a culture of learning and a culture of problem solving. And it’s about creating, you know, a leadership culture where leaders are servants and leaders are supporting their teams to achieve the outcomes. So you know, there is a set of tried and tested tools that sit around lean, but though, those tools are really just there to enable the habits which enable the behavior which enables the cultural change over time.

Murray Guest  05:06

Yeah, and I think when you talk about resetting some of those misconceptions about Lean, what I’ve heard in the past is that people have felt like lean was so focused on the processes and the systems and not the people. And that’s developed some of those negative or hindering perceptions around lean. And my understanding, and I know from the work that you do, there is very much a people-focus on those improvements. And as you said, changing the culture.

Paul Dunlop  05:32

Yeah, absolutely. All too often I think it can become like any change process, very top down, and that can get lost in translation. To me, lean is about that ownership and empowerment, and it disengaged, actually disengages people rather than engages. So you see versions where it’s, it is top down, sometimes it’s bottom up, it’s almost kind of revolution from the front lines. But that can only get so far without, you know, the support from, you know, middle and senior leadership. So it’s finding that balance and getting that harmony, which is often there’s a bit of tension in getting that right. But when it clicks it’s extremely powerful. 

Murray Guest  06:22

Oh, yeah. And it’s funny, as we’re talking, you’re taking me back, geez, nearly 30 years, must be 25-26 years when I first started in fmcg, in the food industry, and, you know, just in time and GMP and 5S, a lot of those tools were just the way of working in fmcg. And for me as like, as a first real job back then in my early 20s, I thought all companies worked like this. I couldn’t be more wrong.

Paul Dunlop  06:57

No, it’s interesting. Yeah certainly locally as well, like I see people coming out of the automotive industry who have been at Toyota or Ford or wherever, and they really, really struggle. Because that’s all they know. They’ve been in that environment for such a long time. And it’s very, very challenging for those people to shift into, let’s say the normal, you know, particularly in manufacturing, mindset, which is, you know, somewhat of that that chaos mentality. So, yeah, you see all parts of the spectrum.

Murray Guest  07:37

Can I ask, you mention change. Where do you think change falls down and doesn’t lock in sustainably in organizations? And lean obviously is one of those change initiatives that often, unfortunately, that happens with.

Paul Dunlop  07:55

I probably come back to two key points – it’s common sense, and it’s discipline. And, look, I have a, I’m a simple guy, I have a very simple approach to these things. But for me, I see change processes sometimes, again, we’ve spoken about the top down. So it’s about making that change, I guess, accessible and easy to understand, there has to be a clear sense of why, you know, why are we doing this? What are the objectives? So we need clearly expressed and clearly articulated objectives around that. I think every organization has the best intentions, they, one way or another, they acknowledge where they are, whether they do something about it or not is a different thing. But the intention to be better and do better is always there. But it is just the ability to execute on that consistently. So again, a lot of lean programs are talking about Kaizen events and those sorts of things. And they’re, they’re sort of once off and I heard a lean guy, Mike Robbo, said it’s four days and a pizza party. And these, I guess, change and transformation and building habits, that can’t happen by a once off. It’s not, you know, if you’re losing weight or getting fit, you know, it’s not just crash diets and things like that. It has to be building a structure and the habits and daily routines to actually make that change. And the change is always incremental. We, we have quick wins, sure, there’s low hanging fruit all the time, but that that change has to be, you know, small steps, everybody making small steps over time. And a lot of organizations I think, really struggle with that concept. Because, you know, we’re human beings, we’re impatient. We want those quick things happening. We want it to be easy. Change is hard, change is really hard. It’s difficult, it’s awkward. It’s very uncomfortable at times, it’s confronting, particularly for leaders to have to look in the mirror. And that’s I think a lot of where my more difficult conversations come in the transformation process is actually showing leaders that well, perhaps presenting them with some self awareness. There was a few sort of Gordon Ramsay moments. And taking them on that journey of, well, actually, it can be different, and it should be different. And that different for you led to a much better place for you personally, and a much better place for your team. So, a bit of a long winded answer to that question. But I think for me the change process is just daily execution. And, and sticking to those structures such as, you know, your daily meetings and visual boards and, you know, Daily Standard Work and Five S, all of those sorts of things, even if it’s, you know, at the start small commitments that you actually execute on those commitments.

Murray Guest  11:17

It is interesting, isn’t it, that as humans we approach change outside of work with a level of perseverance and commitment. Whether that as you said, fitness or health goal or saving money or whatever it might be, financial, yet in business we seem to think tick the box and get it done overnight. But that same perseverance and discipline is needed for that change and to a) see the benefits and b) to lock in as a habit. What’s the shift you reckon for leaders to start to apply that internally in the business, like if you’ve got someone that’s like, oh no we just need to do it, are you Gordon Ramsay yelling at them? How are we getting them to change that mindset?

Paul Dunlop  12:03

*laughs* Maybe. Look again, I think it’s so it’s developing that emotional, like particularly for leaders, I think it’s developing that emotional connection. I work with a lot of middle managers and senior leaders who are, you know, career in manufacturing, let’s say career production managers or whatnot, they’ve based their success on a particular approach and got to that point. So those habits and behaviors in their mind has led to success, but we start to look at what’s going on in the in the current state, and they’re busy, they’re working very long hours, they’re fatigued, they’re, you know, literally, you know, can’t concentrate, they can’t be present. And that’s just in the workplace. And then you start to discuss what’s going on outside of work and their family life’s suffering, they’re not spending enough time with their kids, they’re not eating well, they’re unhealthy. So on and so forth. So it’s just about, I think, for me, I’ll spend a time painting that picture. And starting to, you know, one of the first exercises I’ll do with a leader is to do leader standard work. So okay, what are your must do, should do, like to do, nice to do type activities? And let’s really understand, are you playing in your lane? What is your clear role and responsibility? What should you be doing versus what are you actually doing?

Murray Guest  13:44

And can I just say, a) I was looking at online recently about your Leader Standard Work tool, and I just love that approach. And b) what’s popping in my head is just even asking those questions, I’m sure just unravels this awareness of well I actually don’t even know what I’m meant to be doing.

Paul Dunlop  14:01

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it’s just that getting clarity in the environment and clarity at all levels of the environment. But when we look at what leaders are doing, again, I have this conversation a lot is that we look at, we have a problem with leadership in that we promote people who are technically good at their jobs. And just because you’re good at your job, we assume that you’re good at managing people who are good at the job. And we forget that there’s a big transition between the technical aptitude and running a team of people and having those soft skills. So people tend to, and I think we are getting better. But there’s still a long way to go in terms of equipping those aspiring leaders from the frontlines right through with those tools and those structures to support them to be successful leaders. So what tends to happen is that those middle managers and senior leaders, they gravitate back towards the happy place, the comfort zone of their technical skill, and they crowd the lower levels of the organization. That’s where our micro managers, and that’s where a lot of the time gets eaten up. Because it’s in that day to day hustle and bustle. And there’s almost an addiction there too. The hero mentality.

Murray Guest  15:26

Yeah. And I, you know, you shared online recently about decluttering your time, and I’m just thinking about that video and your insights to that around bringing again, as you said, the self awareness of what’s taking up my time, what’s filling my day? And is it the best use of my time as a leader? And asking, who is the best person to do this other than me? Or the system, or whatever else it is? Can I ask, there was an article that HBR had, I think it was last year, I could be wrong, might’ve been the year before. And I’ve shared it with a few clients. And some of them they’ve, they’ve actually been a little bit taken aback. And I’ll tell you, the title of the article was, If I’m so successful, why am I working 70 hours a week. And in the article it does talk about some of those habits and behaviors, but also even the ego that comes in about being the hero and the rescuer, and filling up your day doing all that stuff. That’s not the best use of the leader’s time.

Paul Dunlop  16:32

Yeah. Yeah. And again, that’s the conversations I start to have, is just calling bullshit on that. In your mind, you think you’re doing this but reality’s very different. You know, you’re bemoaning the fact that your people don’t want to take responsibility or ownership or whatever, or they can’t, because you’re not letting go.

Murray Guest  16:56

So and what I’m thinking here is that awareness of the chaos that I’m in, how much of that I’m creating myself as a leader, as opposed to it’s everyone else’s bloody fault. So if I want to go from chaos to calm, I gotta have my level of ownership and change.

Paul Dunlop  17:12

Yeah. It’s, you know, I say it’s like going to AA, you’ve got to acknowledge that there’s a problem first. You’ve got to take you know, listen to Jocko Willink’s podcasts are taking that ultimate responsibility. It’s, you know, forget blaming the process, or your tools or your people or whatever, it’s all on you. And once you can accept that, and you’re good with that, then we can start moving forward. So, you know, it’s the easy bit of the change process for me is the front lines. I’ll just go out there and go, Hey, what’s going on? And they go blah. One, someone’s actually asked me a question and shows some air about what’s happening. And they’re prepared to listen to me and maybe do something about it. Okay, cool. All right. And let’s go and talk to the leaders and away we go.

Murray Guest  18:11

Can I ask if it’s okay for you to share a story of or an example of one of the companies or teams you have worked with where you’ve seen that shift from chaos to calm and what’s been the impact of that?

Paul Dunlop  18:26

Yes, I won’t mention the client name but a building products manufacturer in Melbourne. So the leader, the production manager is the quintessential chaos agent and I guess when I speak and I share his story with many clients over the last couple of years is that yeah, working 70 hours a week. Absolutely burnt out. Literally when I first started meeting with this guy he would be late to the meetings and that’s just a no no with me. Number one KPI.

Murray Guest  19:13

Just for clarity everyone, Paul was early to our meeting today.

Paul Dunlop  19:18

Yeah, so I was but yeah, and you know, he would be sitting there, the phone would be ringing and just all over the place. He would be everywhere but with me in the room. So we had a few sort of niggly conversations let’s say, but he was able to start to acknowledge that okay, things for him are broken. And we’d go out into the business and yeah, literally chaos, a lot of again in a manufacturing environment, but just a lot of defects in the workplace. A lot of work in process, very messy, disorganized. There had been a couple of attempts of communication and visual management in the workplace but had fallen over. So there was these kind of, and I do see this a lot of, you know, the relics of Lean. So we’ve had a go at Lean, hasn’t worked, not for us.

Murray Guest  20:14

I’ve had a few clients say to me, we’ve done 2S. 

Paul Dunlop  20:17

Yeah. And it’s interesting, a lot of clients, and that’s a whole other topic, but a lot of clients that think they’re doing 5S or, you know, 1 or 2S. But yeah, so this manufacturer, again, what I see is the culture and the performance is always a reflection of the leadership and where the leaders are at. And again, this guy had grown up in the business, 20 year veteran of the process, knew the process intimately, but couldn’t let go. He was just very much out in the day to day, like I said, when when you’ve got managers at that level, their heart and soul is very much out there in the front lines, it just completely crowds a space and people step back. So literally, I would see that, you know, he’d go on the shop floor, he’d be literally, you know, eyeballing and, you know, yelling at people pretty aggressive, because of his internal world. And, you know, as we’ve started to go through and highlight a lot of those things, one of the first things I started with with him, was his Leader Standard Work and starting to challenge what he was doing, how much time was being dedicated, you know, 70 hours, very much a case of, do you really think after 45 hours a week, you’re effective? You know, what are you doing? And, again, his wife was not that happy with the version of him that she did see, you know, he was tired, emotional, all those sorts of things. So, over I think it’s been about 18 months now, I actually had a long conversation with him over the phone yesterday, and he’s moved to a place now where, you know, he’s got the three layers of management underneath him, he’s let go. He’s letting his team leaders and supervisors, his production managers do what they need to do, they’ve now implemented daily communication meetings, I’ve done a power of work around 5S, and the place just looks completely different. Completely different. He’s now going through a period where he, he said, Paul, I’m uncomfortable now because I don’t know what to do with myself. Because I’ve created so much space. 

Murray Guest  22:45

Isn’t that a great place for him to be in though?

Paul Dunlop  22:48

Yeah. And it’s amazing. It’s a great, you know, let’s bring that on. That’s great discomfort to have. And he’s now going okay, well, I see all this opportunity now to, to grow and develop. I have already grown and developed to get to this point. So not everyone can do that. And that’s the discussion I’ve had with him. It’s kind of, you know, being with him along this journey of, you know, self development and growth internally as a leader, but he has been prepared to do that. And he’s got a long way to go. But I say to him, Well, I’m, I’m on the same journey. I’m still learning, I’m still growing, I’m still making mistakes. That’s okay. And that discomfort is where the growth is going to happen.

Murray Guest  23:40

I also wonder about the loss of identity that people go through that work with you, of what they were holding on to which made them who they are, up until that point. And letting that go and creating that new identity. And even for this guy, perhaps where he’s at, a new legacy and a new leadership shadow that he’s casting.

Paul Dunlop  24:03

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I’ve been there probably been there multiple times in not only my professional life, in my, in my personal life, as well. And that is a big part of it. When I talk about that letting go, there’s lots of different types of letting go. I see leadership is something that’s very paternal. And you know, as you watch your kids grow you’re letting go, it’s hard not to be that person that’s doing it for them and then all of a sudden, you’re having to let that go and that changes who you are. So for me, you know, particularly in that process, it’s going from, I guess that almost autocratic type leader to a servant leader and finding the feel good and finding the value in actually helping other people and watching other people grow and develop. And it’s amazing when that starts to happen. And, you know, he’s seen these people almost come from nowhere. And there’s one guy in this particular factory who doesn’t speak, he’s Vietnamese, he’s really working hard on his English but doesn’t speak a lot of English. But he has just been an absolute 5S powerhouse, this guy is just, you know, taking extra time in his work hours to paint lines on the floor and tidy his work area and standardize at all. And it’s amazing. It’s really powerful stuff.

Murray Guest  25:44

I’m thinking about that how that leader has changed his approach through working with you. And that’s created space for other people to learn and grow and step into. And the ripple effect, honestly mate it’s hard to measure, isn’t it? Because it’s not just now, there’s a future ripple effect as well.

Paul Dunlop  26:02

Yeah. And that just keeps, keeps growing. Because other people now are looking at these sort of early adopters, let’s say. And, you know, we’re well and truly through that phase, but other people have seen that and just sort of ridden on the coattails, so to speak. The frontline and middle shop floor management now are owning projects and scoping projects. And so it just grows legs. And that’s where, like I say creating that that space and then actually becoming a leader who grows leaders. And that that’s probably my approach to this and say, well I don’t really care so much about the product or the service. I’m interested in you growing people and developing people. Your KPIs as a leader is how many leaders do you grow and develop? How many leaders do you make? That don’t need to be formal leaders, you know, the guy doing the 5S, he’s a leader.

Murray Guest  27:02

Yeah. I think that’s such a great measure, isn’t it to know who is, and retaining talent, retaining those natural leaders, giving them the opportunity to lead a change, lead an implementation, or lead a team, and they stay with the business. And I’m excited, I look forward to looking back with you in six months time and seeing where this guy’s at. Because as you said, he’s now in this discomfort. Is this stepping into the unknown about well, what’s next for him as well?

Paul Dunlop  27:31

Yeah, and oh, now he’s in that space. And I can keep the tension on and keep sort of, you know, not pushing, but holding him accountable. And that’s almost I think, in my role, that’s what I become is a bit of an accountability measure. I’m there to, you know, give you a cuddle when you need it. But it’s also about continuing to push and to challenge to allow people to grow. And, you know, as far as they want to grow.

Murray Guest  28:04

Yeah. Just want to change the topic a little, not much, just a touch, chaos to calm in 2020. Tell me what you’ve learned or experienced in 2020. With all that we’ve been experiencing, and what you’ve seen, either for yourself or those clients, considering this, this experience we’ve had?

Paul Dunlop  28:35

Yeah. Interesting question. I mean, a lot of that is, I guess, my personal reflections from a consultant point of view. So I’ve been consulting for three years in my own business. And as a consultant, I would have worked pretty much every day in those three years, which is quite an achievement. But within, I think, three days and a few phone calls, I lost probably 50% of my business off the bat. So from my own experience, it’s been very challenging, I’ll say, it’s probably after the kind of initial oh shit type moments, then it was, okay, you know, my own discomfort, and what am I going to do? What am I going to do differently? How am I going to use the time that’s available to me? So that’s been interesting. I’ve been very much the probably the tradesman who never does any work at home. So it’s been good for me to actually look at my business and also spend some time working on you know, my own professional and personal development. So, you know, that that’s kind of how I’ve looked at that. I had early conversations with them. I said, Well, I don’t want to come out the other side, however long this lasts, I don’t want to come out the other side of that feeling like I’ve wasted that time. This is precious time, whether it’s given me more time, I’ve got three kids at home. And it’s given me, you know, a lot of valuable time at home with them and my wife, and it’s just time we never have had outside of, you know, having a holiday or, or whatever. So, that side of things. For my clients, it’s been extremely challenging, particularly in the manufacturing space. So I have a manufacturing client base, I have some local government and not for profit and some other client types or industry types. So yeah, particularly in manufacturing has been really challenging people just getting one their heads around how they manage, you know, from the health and safety point of view, the COVID requirements, how they mitigate the risk in their business, obviously, how the external market conditions have affected them. I’d say some of my clients have never been busier. So they’ve had the challenge of keeping up with the demand in the current environment. Others have, it’s been a bit up and down. And they’ve had to, again, manage those those issues, perhaps losing some employees, often quite valued employees. And that’s been difficult. So there’s been a whole range of different challenges for them. Obviously, the way I support them has been more remote and virtual. At the same time, that’s, you know, to be honest, I would reckon I’d been on zoom half a dozen times, prior to March. And now it’s three, four times a day. And it’s just, it’s provided a different way of doing business. And I’ve enjoyed that, I think the clients have got a lot of benefit out of it, too. It’s made me much more accessible to support them. So yeah, there’s been a lot of difference. But I think everything for me personally, it’s, it’s enriched a lot of things for me, it’s, you know, I’ve picked up international clients through this period now, and oh, this is doable. So yeah, it’s been probably positive.

Murray Guest  32:29

I have very similar path to yourself this year, in regards to my clients, the work I do, and how it’s been very much shifting to online. And also different clients have been impacted. But I’m thinking as you’re talking through your clients, and talk about influencing change, leadership, where’s the best value of my time, removing waste, all those are so valid and important right now, aren’t they? And that’s what’s going to help people get through that, you know, those because the change of a COVID, or a change in industry or a change in you know, a market, they’re all, you know, can put them all in the same bucket, and they’re all going to impact the company and how they respond to that through the things you do, I can see you’re going to help them.

Paul Dunlop  33:14

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the, you know, the client I was talking about before, you know, the change in their thinking has positioned them very, very well for what they had to deal with. And to me, they, they were the gold standard of, you know, how an organization responded to the circumstances, you know, they had a case recently, as well and managed that. And, you know, that obviously, there’s some mandatory reporting and whatnot, goes on. And, you know, the external bodies that came in, were really, really pleased with the way they had managed. So, you know, that that’s an example. But many organizations, I think, in this situation will be wishing that they had, or, you know, thought a little more about, you know, lean or agile or whatever it might be, to put themselves in a position to deal with this. You know, because again, lean really isn’t that different to the design thinking methodology, innovation, you know, PDCA is that’s all it is. It’s about experimentation and throwing ideas around and finding a way forward. So, again, it’s not those businesses that at least are thinking in that way. It’s definitely positioned them in a, you know, put them in a position of strength, or at least it’s given them I think, options.

Murray Guest  34:50

Yeah, and I when we’re going through the conversation earlier about decluttering. It’s hard to see the opportunities for improvement if there is all that crap. There is all that stuff that’s coming up. If you are Marie Kondo in your business, let’s just say, do you refer to Marie Kondo sometimes, Paul?

Paul Dunlop  35:09

No. 

Murray Guest  35:11

You know what I’m talking about, I assume? 

Paul Dunlop  35:13

I actually don’t. 

Murray Guest  35:15

Marie Kondo is the lady that helps people declutter their house. 

Paul Dunlop  35:21

Yeah, okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. 

Murray Guest  35:23

Yeah, the Japanese lady does some great work around does it bring you joy? And if it doesn’t, you know, say goodbye to it and let it go. Does this process bring you joy? Does this piece of equipment bring you joy? If not let it go. Yeah, check it out. I think she challenges some people’s thinking about people feeling like, well, you’re telling me I have to let go of stuff. But obviously, there’s some other mindset stuff there that has to really shift of course, as well. Yeah, but I guess the bit I was thinking about through all that is, it’s hard to see the opportunities if we’re just full of all that deep, that cluttering.

Paul Dunlop  36:07

Yeah. And I think that lies at the heart of a lean approach is just to, you know, talk about the concept of value and non value and waste. And it’s about really creating those visuals around what’s important and getting that focus around what’s important and giving people a sense of that purpose. And I think, you know, to go off on a little bit of a tangent is that one of the first things I will ask people in organizations is, what does a good day look like for you? And most people I find can’t really answer that question very well, but they might have their own idea of what that is. But there’s certainly no clear definition of, at the end of the day this is what achievement looks like for me, this is what success is. And so I look at that. And I think, wow, that’s, that’s really sad that we expect human beings to come to our workplace and give their time, sure they get a paycheck, but put in time and effort, but not to be really clear around what good is, and certainly not to get any feedback around that. So I think that visualization, and I guess the support and energy we can put around that is only a good thing.

Murray Guest  37:40

100%. And that question, of course, looks different for each individual. And that’s something that’s been highlighted, I think, in 2020. Through all the changes of working arrangements and flexibility, how everyone’s situation is very unique. We’ve got to take that into account. And what a best day looks like, does someone get a chance to use their strengths and bring their best selves to work day in, day out? You’ve mentioned Lego a couple of times, and it’s something we both are a bit passionate about, because we can see the benefit of Lego and what it brings. How did you get into Lego Serious Play? Or were you a Lego fan beforehand?

Paul Dunlop  38:26

Okay, so yeah, a Lego fan, I grew up with Lego, I grew up with meccano. So very hands on sort of practical person. Through my lean experience, so I do, you know, run a lot of lean workshops that are simulation based so already understand that the value of kinesthetic learning and practical learning. So there’s a couple, I run a 5S, a PDCA simulation with Lego already. I have an associate in New Zealand, Rob Bull, who is a lean guy as well and sort of late last year started talking about Lego Serious Play and started posting around and I was curious, what’s all this about? So we had a few conversations about it. And he got me excited and got me some exposure to it. So I started doing my own research and yeah, sort of, did my Lego Facilitators training last month with Michael, who you did your training with, so yeah, it’s really, for me, opened up a whole new world and really opened my eyes to I guess the possibilities. So, you know, in my day to day consulting work, I’d run a lot of workshops, a lot of brainstorming sessions and problem solving sessions, whether they’re around strategy or vision or, you know, perhaps root cause analysis, whatever it might be. And you know, there’s a bunch of stakeholders in the room. It’s sticky notes on the wall and those sorts of things. So I guess what Lego now brings is another medium, another tool, to the toolbox. It’s not a one size fits all, as you know, but where Lego now comes in as it starts to, I think create a more democratic process in terms of creating a, it’s not just the the loudest voice in the room that gets heard. By creating a Lego model, you know, it’s almost replacing the sticky note, which is, you know, a few words which may or may not mean anything to people in the room. It’s flat, it’s one dimensional, it’s kind of lifeless, really, whereas a Lego model is bringing that idea to life. And it’s got a story behind it. And we’re starting to obviously talking in metaphors and things.

Murray Guest  40:58

I totally hear everything you’re saying, Paul, and I love the richness of conversation that it generates. And I think for those introverted people that might have trouble articulating a point, as you’re saying, on a post it note or a piece of paper. If you talk to the build that you’ve created, it gives them this opportunity to open up and I’ve loved that richness that helps generate.

Paul Dunlop  41:22

Yeah, 100%. And I think it drives, particularly in a group situation, that curiosity, you know, I’m big on non judgement and curiosity. And it just, I think that that level playing field where people have something very real, very tangible, there’s a, you know, there’s an opportunity to discuss that, there’s an encouragement there for others in the group to ask questions and be curious and it really opens up people, I don’t know how to put it, but there’s much more of an emotional connection to it. There’s a lot more depth to the conversation or the story we learn about the people as well as their their experience. So it’s extremely powerful from that point of view. It is almost like kryptonite. Sometimes you don’t know how powerful that thing is. So yeah, my experience so far, you know, whether it be one on one or in group situations is that this is a tool that provides so much value.

Murray Guest  42:36

I agree from my experience so far. And I’m looking forward to using it more as we’re doing back to more face to face workshops. But you’ve really reminded me as well the power of that kinesthetic learning in that hand-mind connection, and how important that is. And there’s so much of that lost in, in training, and just the day to day work that people do in offices and coming back to that is powerful, and helps that learning process.

Paul Dunlop  43:06

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I think, you know, again, from the outside looking in, yeah it sounds a bit silly and a bit novel, and whatever, but it’s, you know, the underscore is on the Serious, the Lego is just the medium to have that. And yeah, there’s absolutely that, you know, I think as well getting into that flow state, so where people are just lost in, in the actual play, and they’re just thinking about putting blocks together. Obviously, through the Lego Serious Play methodology, there’s always a question. And I like Michael’s approach, don’t have a meeting with yourself, don’t overthink it, you know, just build and it’s like, you know, when you do any personality profiling or any surveys that, you know, the advice is just answer the question as quickly as possible. Just build the model as quickly as possible. And then there’s that, I guess, that reflection at the end where you, you’ve probably had a bit of a thread in your mind around what you’re doing. But you haven’t really thought too much about it. At the end, and in the builds that I’ve done, I’m like, wow, okay, I get this, this makes perfect sense to me. And you’re able to really start to you know, that post hoc thinking and really reflect heavily on it. And it’s amazing how much sense it actually makes to you.

Murray Guest  44:34

Yeah, I, I agree. And I’ve loved using it. And I’m using again with some clients in the coming weeks. And I love again, that process that Michael introduced to me and capturing it with the photos and that, I guess, momento that people have or even anchoring for that conversation they had to then, you know, revisit that in the future and come come back to that and how powerful that’s been so. Yeah, Paul, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on board, chatting about Lego Serious Play just then. But obviously, leadership, change, lean. Helping leaders and cultures go from chaos to calm. I was talking a lot recently about clarity, you talk about clarity and obviously that’s something we’re both aligned in how important that is and what that brings. What’s life look like for the rest of 2020?

Paul Dunlop  45:33

Lots more Lego hopefully. Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve only really started putting that out there over the last few weeks. And it’s generated a lot of interest. So I’m really excited to start doing some some bigger workshops. I’ve got a strategy workshop on the horizon, which I’m really excited about. So yeah, a lot more Lego. Obviously, Melbourne, currently is starting to looking at starting to open up. So there’s been a few clients there that I haven’t physically been able to get to. So I’m looking forward to sort of re establishing that. So yeah, that’s kind of the, the demand stay ahead is yeah, just getting back into physically being in the workplace, which would be good.

Murray Guest  46:25

So hopefully some some good news, I think on Sunday about changes going forward for Victoria, which is, from all that’s been reported numbers are heading in the right direction, which is fantastic. And, of course, challenging times, but that sounds like heading in the right direction and quicker than maybe what was anticipated earlier, which is great. Now I’m going to ask you three last questions. First one is just something you’re happy to share that you love to do that’s not directly work related, what’s something that you want to open up and let us know that you’d love to do that maybe not playing with teams and leaders around lean and Lego and other things.

Paul Dunlop  47:10

I don’t switch off easily. So I am an avid reader. So I kept saying leaders are readers. So it’s very important for me to live my own methodology. So yeah, constantly reading all sorts of books, particularly, I guess, on the topic of leadership, I’ve been reading a lot of Ryan Holidays books lately and getting into stoicism and all of that, which has been fantastic. So yep, constantly reading. The other thing I’ve been I think I posted yesterday, one of the kind of lockdown activities that I’ve really enjoyed is getting into the Wim Hof Method. So doing the breath work and the cold showers and ice baths and all that. So that’s yeah, I’ve really enjoyed that.

Murray Guest  48:01

I did some late last year in Bali, the ice baths. And after my accident, you know, controlling my breath and that mindfulness was quite difficult. And I still remember the first bath I lasted like 40 seconds and my wife found it very funny. I was panting and breathing all over the place but day five I was in the ice bath for over six minutes. So yeah, it’s hard to explain to someone if they haven’t done it the impact that has on I think focus, energy. I loved it.

Paul Dunlop  48:39

Yeah, it’s fantastic. And just starting to get to that point where you’re controlling your autonomic responses. Yeah. Very powerful stuff.

Murray Guest  48:51

Well done. And again, there’s a great example of something that you can’t just do once you got to persevere. You’ve got to keep going at it. Second last question, your definition of inspired energy? 

Paul Dunlop  49:07

Hmm, for me, inspired energy. I guess where I see that and almost what I live for and in my job is where I’m sure you’ve seen this, is the light comes on in people’s eyes. For me, at the front lines of organizations where people have, you know, what we’ve talked about through our conversation, that that space and that ownership and that permission to really grab hold of what they’re doing and to make change, to make positive change, or at least to the joy of the process of experimentation. So for me, everything I do is geared towards that moment where the penny drops and people get get that. It is literally inspired energy. Yeah.

Murray Guest  50:05

And I hear you. And you’re right. I’ve seen that. And that that drives me for the work that I do. And it’s funny, I was running a workshop recently, one of my first face to face workshops, and a leader’s name came up and he said, I met that leader years ago, and I’ve just done some more work with him. And now he’s all switched on. He’s driving us. He’s identifying hazards, and we’re improving. He goes, do I have you to blame? Oh, that’s a good thing I think. So that was good. So yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Paul Dunlop  50:39

100%. And that’s exactly what it looks like. So for me, yeah, all the hard work, all of the difficult conversations, all of the slow going, it’s all worth it for those moments.

Murray Guest  50:52

Yeah, I agree. Paul, you do amazing work, and sustainable work too which is so important, and not just ticking the box, which I think is so needed. If anyone wants to reach out and check out the work you do or to contact you, where’s the best place to do that online?

Paul Dunlop  51:11

At the moment, it will be LinkedIn. So there is a website under construction at the moment so that will arrive hopefully in the next few weeks. But yeah, LinkedIn is the best way. Currently, my contact details are all on there. So yeah, please don’t hesitate to get in touch.

Murray Guest  51:29

Yeah, fantastic. And as of course you are based in Melbourne, but with what’s going on in the world, you are available to serve people all around the world. Absolutely. So if anyone listening to this conversation, if you’ve got something out of it, and I’m sure you did. Paul has a wealth of knowledge that he just shared. Make sure you share it online, on LinkedIn, tag Paul and myself. And let us know, that would be awesome. Paul, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the chat. Look forward to keeping in contact and all the best for the rest of 2020.

Paul Dunlop  52:06

No thank you, Murray. Appreciate that. And it’s been an absolute pleasure.