Episode 77 – Kristen Ulmer | Fear Expert

In this episode I chat with Kristen Ulmer, who is a thought leader on fear and anxiety. Kristen draws from her tenure as the most ‘fearless’ female extreme skier in the world, from intently studying Zen for 16 years and also from facilitating thousands of clients on flow and peak performance.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Kristin, welcome to the podcast. I’m actually really excited to talk to you today about fear, and how it shows up in all the different ways. And I loved getting to meet you two years ago in Bali. Man, it feels like so long ago. But I’m really keen to talk to you about it today. You’ve got such an important message. And just before we started recording, I started to talk a bit about what 2020 has been like, and this fear that’s in community in society at the moment. But before we get into that, how are you? And I hope you’re well and healthy today?

Kristen Ulmer  00:40

Well, the reason why you feel excited is because fear is an exciting topic. You mentioned the word fear, and people perk right up. I’m doing well. I’m in Salt Lake City, I’m healthy, going through divorce, which was unexpected, because I was very happily married. And so this is a strange time for me. And it’s definitely cracking me open towards greater learning and growing on the subject of fear than ever before. Which is that’s the that’s the bonus. All this shit in here, there must be a pony somewhere. That’s the pony for me.

Murray Guest  01:15

I like that analogy. Well, I haven’t heard that one. But yeah, I get that. And fear can show up in so many different ways. I’m sure it’s showing up in lots of different ways in your life right now, shows up my life in lots of different ways. So what are you tapping into right now from a fear perspective?

Kristen Ulmer  01:34

Well, it’s not that fear shows up in many different ways. It’s more that it shows up in many different places in our life. Fear is just fear, it’s very, very simple. It’s just a feeling of discomfort, it’s proven by science to first show up in the body. It comes from the amygdala, the the oldest part of the brain, it’s the manufacturing plant for fear and data is run through the amygdala. And if there’s a threat, it produces the feeling of discomfort called fear that’s supposed to lead to immediate, you know, physical reaction without thought. And, right now, this is a scary time for us all, actually, you know, just life is scary in general. And life has gotten scarier, not even, you know, even before COVID just because more happens in 24 minutes than used to happen in 24 years, like in our great grandparents era, there’s just so much going on and the amygdalas producing a lot of fear. And then now there’s COVID and some of us are fleeing COVID you know, fear is helping us flee it and sequestering at home. And some of us are fighting COVID, you know, the the fight or flight response, the scientists and the doctors and all that. And so we’re right on target with our fear response. And just added yet one more thing to be afraid of, in this crazy ride called life, this COVID thing is one more thing on the list.

Murray Guest  03:00

So just to help us all get on the same page, how do you define fear at its very simple, simplest definition.

Kristen Ulmer  03:06

People have a very complicated relationship with fear. And so we think of fear as being very complicated. But fear is actually very, very simple. It’s a emotion, a primary emotion, from which a lot of your human experience is created. And there’s been studies done, there are five basic primary emotions. And similar to three primary colors, red, yellow, and blue. The entire color spectrum is created like an infinite number of colors. There are also primary emotions from which the entire human experience is created. And these five are fear, anger, sadness, and those three are kind of considered the bad emotions. And then there’s joy, which is considered a good emotion. And then sexuality is actually labeled an emotion. I think that actually I prefer eroticism as the emotion and that includes the sexual but isn’t limited by it. And for some people, you know, eroticism or sexuality is considered good. And for some people, it’s considered bad. But these are the emotional experiences that form our lives as humans. And what we tend to do is we tend to want to create positive emotional experiences. And when we feel negative emotion, sadness, what do we do we apologize, we try to stop crying as fast as possible. We’re embarrassed by it. Anger, you know, anger management courses, or like, put a lid on it, you know, lock it in the basement, do not let that out. Fear, where some people are in denial of it. Some people avoid it. They don’t want to do anything scary. Some people fight it, they want to conquer, overcome it. So we have these incredibly complex relationships with the so called negative emotions. That makes them very complicated and fear is one of them. But fear, my definition of it, is just it’s a simple emotion, it’s just in our bodies, like I said, proven by science, a feeling of discomfort that leads to action. But then when things go wrong, all of a sudden you have fearful thoughts, and then your racing mind in the middle of the night, and you have phobias, and obsessive compulsive disorder, and PTSD, and depression and anxiety disorders. All of these are a result of the way that we subsequently treat that very simple fear response in our bodies. And most of us are trying to get rid of it. Like I said, ignore it, avoid it, etc, etc. And it’s like ignoring the truth about the human experience. And that’s what causes problems with fear and causing it to appear complex. But really, at its core, it’s a very simple emotion.

Murray Guest  05:52

So what I’m thinking about also is around that safety mechanism that we have to try and keep us safe. And that fear emotion is saying, hang on, the perspective that I’m giving you right now that you’re tapping into is that that is going to hurt you in some way. And so react to that, and it’s like, help me out here, but it’s like a future emotion. It’s like, I’m thinking about, as a human, that this thing in the future is going to hurt me in some way. So protect myself by fight flight freeze.

Kristen Ulmer  06:25

Right. And so what you’re referring to is just when people start to project in the future of things that they’re afraid of. You know, if people are in their heads around fear, you know, your body isn’t living in the future, it’s not living in the past, it’s just living in the moment. And so long as your fear response, you know, you’re just staying in your body and dealing with your emotions, emotionally, there’s no projection on the past or future or any of that. But the second, you start thinking about fear, and you’re in your head, and your head is always thinking about the past, projecting the future, you know, which is that also is a sign that something has gone wrong. And, I mean, there’s four basic ways that people deal with fear. And just as I outline these, you know, I want everybody to just notice which one are they, and I’m going to rank them from worse way to deal with fear, to the best way to deal with fear. The worst way to deal with fear – level one – is resistance to it. And don’t get too caught up on the word resistance, there’s many different ways to resist fear, but any kind of like, trying to get rid of it or denying it, probably the biggest form of resistance I see is being in your head, trying to understand it and think about it as a way to not have to feel it, like with a therapist or something. And then there’s acceptance, which is a step in the right direction, but it’s still kind of dealing with your emotions intellectually, like, Oh, you know, it is not a sign of personal weakness, it’s supposed to be here. Level three is where you start dealing with emotions emotionally, where you embrace it. And then level four is where you have intimacy with your emotion. And if you can learn to do level three and level four, then it’ll never wind up, fear will never wind up in your thoughts. And you’ll never be thinking about future fear or projecting, you know, thoughts into the future about things you might be afraid of. I’m like in relationships, for example, like, Oh, my gosh, I’ve met this guy, he’s really cute. But the last time, you know, I got in a relationship, it was a disaster, and I don’t want to fall in love with them. And then he could hurt me. And you know, next thing, you know, you’re in your head. That is usually the result of dealing with fear intellectually, and also being in resistance to it. And then it’s just going to persist and show up in wacky weird ways, as fearful thoughts.

Murray Guest  08:43

And even in that very quick example, I could picture someone’s mind jumping to the past, bring that emotional template framework around it, and then jumping to the future – what’s going to happen – as opposed to being in the present, and living in that emotion and embracing the emotion as you said.

Kristen Ulmer  08:59

Yeah, and let me just say, we’re starting off running like I’m introducing some really complex information like in the first five minutes of the podcast, I mean, we can simplify this and back way up if you want.

Murray Guest  09:16

Well, I’m loving this.

Kristen Ulmer  09:17

Going down this rabbithole. Like I said, I don’t expect people to really understand because there may be some missing pieces. But you know, it’s really interesting. Being a fear expert. It’s like I can just meet somebody. And when they start to say, Oh, yeah, this is my issue with fear. I’ll be like, Oh, yeah, I’ve seen it before. You know, that’s probably what’s happening.

Murray Guest  09:40

So let me just tap into something there. Why a fear expert? So obviously, there was the over 20 films that you’re a part of, and all these amazing jumps and experiences you had. At which point that how’d it lead you to going, you know what I’m going to really tap into and explore and help others around fear.

Kristen Ulmer  10:03

Being a professional skier was a very strange experience. I mean, it was very hedonistic. I had a massive ego trip. I mean, it was fun, fun, fun and dangerous and exciting and all of that. And I realized now, the whole time I was a professional skier, something felt off. Like I remember being on a chairlift at least five times looking at my skis saying, What am I doing? This is stupid. And, you know, I was the best in the world at a very dangerous, exciting sport. Nothing stupid about that from the outside looking in, but from the inside looking at them, like there’s, What is this? Why am i doing this, this doesn’t feel right. And I realized now that it was just part of my education, to be able to look at fear and anxiety from a new lens, from a different angle. You know, like be a fear and anxiety expert. My training didn’t come from a master’s degree or a PhD in college, I’m not like, kind of parroting things I learned from a professor or from another self help guru, like, I have come up with some really unique concepts and ideas that are actually the radical opposite of most of all of what’s out there. And I came to it just through 33 years now of just real life experience. You know, first, I mean, what is extreme skiing, it means that I was risking my life for a living, you know, the definition of extreme is the consequences of failure, and certainly in the context of extreme skiing, are death. And so I was making life or death decisions on a daily basis for 15 years, you know, dealing with a tremendous amount of fear, far more than the average public and I learned you don’t learn from experience, you learn from reflecting on the experience. I had enough of a curiosity sparked during those times, because I was considered fearless, to really reflect on those 15 years and figure out exactly what I did right by fear and what I did wrong by fear. And then studying is an approach to fear and then working with 10,000 clients now, like I have basically come up with exactly why people struggle with fear and anxiety and other people don’t. And what to do about it. That is currently not being taught by pretty much anyone. So this is, this is really new, super sexy information that comes from a, you know, from I mean, I’m, like, groomed by the universe for 33 years now to bring this message. And, and I see my ski career as just an education.

Murray Guest  12:40

Yeah, so I think, so my definition here that I thought I had as you’re talking about extreme skiing, or extreme sport, I think if the average person let’s just say anybody watches a sport and thinks, ‘I can do that’, that’s skiing, or that’s mountain biking, or that’s, you know, motorbike riding. But then when we add the word extreme to it, it’s like, straightaway, I can’t do that. I just, the average person can’t see themselves. So I watched a number of videos of what you were doing. I mean, the front flip in Wyoming. That was in Wyoming, wasn’t it? Yeah?

Kristen Ulmer  13:19

That was in Alaska.

Murray Guest  13:21

Yeah. And I, I’m, I’m watching that thinking, I hope she lands this. Of course, she lands it but I’m gonna hope she lands this and it’s just but it’s just magical, you know, landscape that you’re playing in as well. Like, just just beautiful as well. So this is popping into my head right now, how did you balance the ‘I’m appreciating this magical landscape, that’s just you know, that only I get to see and experience’, and at the same time thinking, ‘Oh, shit, this is pretty fearful stuff.’

Kristen Ulmer  13:52

Back in my ski career, I didn’t feel fear.

Murray Guest  13:56

Ah.

Kristen Ulmer  13:57

And as beautiful as the landscape was for me, that wasn’t the draw for me. For me, the draw was radical self expression. You know, yes, I noticed landscape, but it really wasn’t that big of a deal to me, you know, it was the self expression. I want to address if somebody feels fearless, like I did, what actually is going on. Like if they have a kid who seems to be fearless, you know, what’s the difference between that one kid versus the other kid that you know has a lot of fear. The difference is that that kid enjoys feeling fear, they’re not fearless. Neurochemically fear and excitement are exactly the same thing. And if you have, and I talked about the four levels, if you embrace fear, and if you have an intimate relationship with fear, it just feels like excitement and presence. It actually takes you into the zone and little else does, like extreme sports are notorious for taking people into the zone. It’s like you have to be in an altered state to survive some of these things, you know, and just be tapped into some intuition or instinct, because you know, you have to make instant reactions that will save your life or not save your life.

Murray Guest  15:13

So what’s the impact of calling someone fearless?

Kristen Ulmer  15:19

It sets our society up to live under an impossible ideal. Like, people would look at somebody like me and say, Oh, she’s fearless. I wasn’t fearless. You know, I was motivated by fear of not being special, fear of not being loved. That’s what had me do all these super sketchy things. The fear was the draw. I loved feeling fear, you know, I was addicted to it. It actually became an unhealthy addiction to me like a heroin addict. You know, I became a fear addict. And I mean that I was absolutely not fearless. It’s just that I, the part of me that became a world class athlete, I was having an intimate relationship with fear. And keep in mind, I have confirmed this with pretty much you name it, name the athlete I’ve talked to them. I interviewed 26 World Class professional, extreme athletes in the last year and a half for probably two hours each just on fear. And they didn’t even know that this is what was going on. But by the end of the couple of hours, they’re nodding their head so hard I thought their neck was gonna break like Alex Honnold who free solo’d El Capitan. Laird Hamilton, arguably the best big wave surfer in the world. What we are, we’re not fearless. And there’s a rumor going around that Alex Honnold had a damaged amygdala. That’s not the case. He thought that test that was done on him was not realistic and very stupid. What we are tapping into and make no mistake, this is not just with athletes, this is also with business men and women, people who you admire who are doing amazing things. What they are, is they’re having an intimate relationship with fear. And as a result, they come across as fearless. The people who come across as very, very fearful, actually, what they are, is they’re afraid of fear, which is different. Like they, they don’t want to feel fear, they are in resistance to it. And actually the awful feeling that we associate with fear, that’s not fear. Fear is actually I mean, it’s uncomfortable. But it’s, it feels more like excitement when you’re having an intimate relationship with it. The awful feeling we associate with fear is actually our resistance to feeling it. It’s I don’t want this I don’t want to feel this. What’s wrong with me? This is an awful feeling. It’s that resistance that feels so awful, not the fear itself.

Murray Guest  17:45

So at that resistance level, we’re fighting it, we’re pushing it away, or trying to run from it.

Kristen Ulmer  17:50

Right. And we’re actually taught to do this in our culture. Like, that’s where all the language comes from. You want to conquer and overcome fear. Well, look at that language triumph over it, it suggests a war, a mighty battle against this huge enemy. And that puts you at war with fear, which means it puts you at war with your own body, where the fear is, it puts you at war with the amygdala, you do not want to pick a fight with fear and you do not want to pick a fight with the amygdala, they will win every time.

Murray Guest  18:19

So fear’s good as well. And I’m not telling you, I’m just thinking this through.

Kristen Ulmer  18:26

Let me just adjust that before you move on. Fear’s not good ‘as well’. Fear is good, period. Like, I do not see good fear, bad fear. Like there’s good stuff, bad stuff about it. If you embrace fear, the good stuff is all you get. If you’re intimate with fear, it actually takes you into a spiritual place, an altered state, it’s a gorgeous experience. And the fear becomes one of the best parts of your life. If you are in resistance to fear, only the good stuff shows up. Like whatever your relationship is, with fear determines whether it’s like one of the best parts of your life or one or one of the worst parts of your life.

Murray Guest  19:07

For the listeners, how do they then determine where their relationship sits with fear?

Kristen Ulmer  19:15

I love that question. You know, I’ve done hundreds of podcasts, nobody has ever asked me that. That’s an excellent question. So how does one determine.. Well, you know, I bought a sat radio and went out to the mountains once, I bought it at REI, this is back in the 90s, the damn thing wouldn’t work. And I turned it on, it’s just static, just, you know, white noise. I brought it back to REI. I’m like, What the hell this thing didn’t work? And they said, Well, did you raise the antenna? I’m like, Ohh. It’s like our life is just static, like we can’t see or tell anything about what’s going on in our undercurrent unless we raise our antenna. And it used to be said that knowledge is power. But the guy who said that said that in like the late 1400s, when we also believe the world was flat, right? It’s kind of outdated. What’s more true in today’s world is that knowledge is power or awareness is power. And so it starts with just having an awareness practice, like, what’s my deal with fear? I mean, we are mostly living in denial about fear, like, we do not want to believe that fear is as big a part of our lives as it is. And actually, the amygdala is manufacturing fear all the time, it’s to the point where it’s actually with us every moment of every single day, in pretty much every interaction we have, I feel it right now. You know, because I’m aware of it. And, and so just becoming aware of the fear itself to start with, and then become aware of your relationship with that fear. Like I like to personify it, see it as a person in our lives, like a roommate that you live with all the time, like, what is my relationship with it? Am I in denial of this roommate? Do I ignore this roommate? Am I in a war with this roommate? Do I hate this roommate and wish he would go away? Like, just getting to know your relationship with fear is absolutely the crucial first step towards having a healthy relationship with it. Because you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge. You may think that fear is the problem. But you may actually learn by having an awareness practice that you are the problem, you’re actually picking a fight with fear. And then that leaves fear no choice but to retaliate. I mean, all gets revealed once you raise your antenna.

Murray Guest  21:35

Hmm, gotcha. And once taking the time to actually understand that relationship. And then let’s say I’ve realized, I’m actually resisting my feeling, I’m at level one. If there’s a simple technique to help me start to really accept my fear, to then move to that next level, what could I do?

Kristen Ulmer  22:01

The the first, well, it’s interesting how we’re just organically leaning towards my top three tips for people. The first tip is just become aware of your relationship with fear. The second Hot Tip is to change your language around how you talk about fear and less, view fear. And back to being a roommate, you know, if you’re used to saying, Oh, my gosh, fear is holding me back from doing the things I want to do. It’s not true. My unwillingness to feel fear is holding me back from doing the things I want to do. It’s like, okay, your fear is next to you. And your fear is only here to help. I’m going to say that, again, your fear is only here to help, like nature did not get this wrong. Fear is like the perfect design. Not only does it keep you safe, but it perks you up, makes you sharp, focused, helps you bring your A game to everything you do. It makes you feel alive. You know, it’s very exciting. If you’re ever bored, go and do something that scares you. And you’ll see, it’ll be the highlight of your day, maybe even of your year, like fear is only here as a resource, of source of motivation, all of that. It’s wonderful. And so, here you have this roommate, who’s like here to support you. And you’re like, you’re holding me back. It’s like, oh, wait a second. No, he’s not holding me back. I’m holding me back, because I’m unwilling to kind of see this roommate that I have is somebody that’s here to help me. So change your language about that roommate, like start talking about fear in a positive way.

Murray Guest  23:42

Our words shape our world, don’t they? Yeah, I totally agree.

Kristen Ulmer  23:48

Yeah, there’s just so much that comes from switching from a pessimistic or negative view of fear, to seeing fear as a positive and then changing the way you think about it and talk about it accordingly. It’s just like, you’d make that one simple shift. And you can’t even believe how much your life starts to become magic. You work through issues, scary things faster, like I’m going through a divorce right now. It’s a very dark, emotional time for me, a lot of fear, a lot of anger, a lot of sadness, you know, because I’m embracing it all. I’m in flow with it all. I’m moving through this difficult time much faster. I’m learning incredible lessons from it. You know, you don’t get stuck in a war with your own body and your own self. And it’s just, I don’t know, just having that kind of optimistic and positive view of fear will also get you taking more risks. You know, and then when you take the risks, like, ask me about Alex Honnold at some point, and I’ll tell you what we explored because I think that people are going to be very surprised by what he and I came up with is happening with him. 

Murray Guest  25:00

And can I just say if you haven’t watched free solo, it is such a fantastic documentary. I really enjoyed it. Well, it’s funny because as you were talking about the language and the words we use and how we describe our fear, I wondered if that was a theme that came out of your conversations with the athletes you’ve spoken to in the last 18 months? Did they consciously choose or were they consciously aware of how they describe their internal dialogue towards their fears? Or was that something that came out of some of those conversations?

Kristen Ulmer  25:38

What I found was, I interviewed 26 World Class extreme athletes, the best in the world at their sports, multiple sports. Similar to when I was going through my ski career, and people called me fearless. I believed my own hype. I felt fearless, I acted fearless. I wasn’t aware that fear was playing any part of my life. And I was also, you know, if you’d interviewed me when I was 24 years old, I would have had no clue what my relationship was with fear. And a lot of these athletes I interviewed who were in their 30s, 40s, or 50s, and they basically, they are the poster children, for people that do scary things with their life. And you think that they would have some sort of understanding of what their relationship was with fear. 23 of the 26 had no clue. Even when they were in their 50s, Alex Honnold had no clue what his relationship was with fear. And usually what they would start off the interview with would be just parroting stuff that they’ve heard from self help gurus, like, Oh, I don’t let fear get in my way, you know, I put it out of my mind, I’m, you know, I am able to conquer my fear. And so it doesn’t hold me back. Or, or they’ll say something like, I’m a scaredy cat. But I feel the fear and do it anyway. You know, like, the, the cliches were profound. It’s like, okay, everybody’s the same old, you know, that, that they’ve heard. But then I would say, Well, have you ever thought about it this way? And do you think that this might be going on? And what do you think about this? And, and I would, some of them, I would facilitate a conversation broker, that conversation between them and their fear. And, and one by one, we found out some similarities here that people were eventually were like, Oh, my gosh, that’s, I think that’s it. That’s it. That’s what’s going on. And that’s where I came up with the intimacy thing. And so Alex Honnold, you know, seemingly the poster child for what to do about fear. What we came up with is two things, basically. And so this is a great segue into that. He’s not fearless. And if he was fearless, he said he would have just tried to free solo El Capitan the first year he was in Yosemite, and in his words, he would have died for sure. Because we concurred that anybody that’s fearless just dies, you know, or perceives himself. And a lot of these extreme athletes do die. And most of the ones who die, walk around all cocky saying, Yeah, I’m not afraid of anything. You know that those people are super dangerous.

Murray Guest  28:17

Not just dangerous to themselves, but dangerous to the people around them as well.

Kristen Ulmer  28:21

Absolutely. Well put, and what was really going on with Alex, I mean, he spent 10 years before he free solo’d El Capitan, is that he is just willing to feel fear. He even enjoys feeling fear. And so he’s willing to step out of his comfort zone, where there exists fear. And so this is a podcast about business, it’s like, you know, the, the people who are willing to take risks and step out of their comfort zone, are also willing to have fear. Because where there’s risk, there’s fear. And so you, you know, like, imagine a circle, this is your comfort zone, you’re still gonna feel fear within your comfort zone. But if you’re willing to take on more fear, you’re willing to step out of your comfort zone. And you do that often enough, you know, put a dot outside your comfort zone, each time you take a risk, eventually connect the new dots, you have a bigger comfort zone. And so that’s what Alex did, every year is in Yosemite kept taking little risks, you know, the magical number is 4%, 4% out of your comfort zone, studied by science, right? Is the optimal flow state because then the fear takes you into a flow state, if you’re in flow with it, that is, if you’re intimate with it. And then so he just kept expanding his comfort zone bigger and bigger and bigger until the day he free solo’d El Cap. It wasn’t that big of a stretch for him to step out of his very expanded comfort zone and do what he did. And so that’s the secret of success with anyone who finds out their greatest potential. You don’t find out your greatest potential by just thinking about it. You find out your greatest potential by taking risks. So willingness to feel fear actually supports you figuring out what your greatest capabilities are. And so there’s a lot of people that are fear avoiders, which is a form of resistance to fear.

Murray Guest  30:12

Yep. Back to level one then.

Kristen Ulmer  30:14

Yeah, right, right. So willing to feel fear, embracing fear, you will take risks, you will step out of your comfort zone. And here’s the clincher with this, this is the bonus. Not only is there no learning and growing, without a willingness to feel fear, you know, because fear is very expensive for the body to manufacture. It requires a lot of energy, you actually support the amygdala and the body by expanding who you are, and and, you know, expanding your comfort zone, because then it doesn’t have to manufacture fear anymore. So here’s the conclusion of that – you cannot have less fear by controlling it. The only way you can have less fear is by taking risks, and expanding your comfort zone. And that comes from a willingness to feel fear. So the only way you can have less fear is found by a willingness to feel fear in the first place.

Murray Guest  31:11

That’s that’s gold, right there. Yeah, I love that.

Kristen Ulmer  31:15

Not just for business, anything, relationships, I mean, life, just finding out your greatest potential as a human being. And then while you’re out of your comfort zone, how do you deal with the fear? Well, you have an intimacy with it. And so it takes you into that altered state called flow or the zone. That was the second secret of Alex.

Murray Guest  31:34

Well, the thing I’m thinking about here, whether that’s what you were doing as an extreme skier, or Alex, free soloing El Capitan, that there’s it’s not like, as you said, this is bravado of just going in and doing it. And tell me if I’m wrong here. But the planning, the preparation, which actually sets for success. So I haven’t seen a video of you, because I haven’t watched all the videos of you and your preparation. But what I’m thinking about when I saw Alex, was all the preparation he did to make sure, yes, he’s embracing the fear. He’s intimate with it. And he knows how he can set himself for success. And the analogy I’m drawing here is, let’s say someone’s listening to this, and they’ve got to do a presentation. And they’re really fearful about that. Or they want to have a conversation with another leader within the business. And they’re fearful about that. It’s not like just pushing the fear aside and running in there. But there’s, How do I embrace that and actually prepare for success to actually achieve what I’m trying to do?

Kristen Ulmer  32:32

Right, it’s, it’s like, there’s two ways to deal with a speech, you know, or presentation or a job interview. You know, you’re slightly under prepared her or, anyway, anything that you’re going to do in business, you have two basic ways of dealing with it. And look at you as Batman and your fear as Robin. You could either punch Robin in the face, and feel powerful, and he’s laid out on the floor and just, you know, crumpled, and you go in there and you give the speech, right? And you think, ah ha! But guess what. Now, Robin’s pissed off, he’s gonna come back, and he’s gonna terrorize your life and seek vicious revenge, which is what fear does. The other thing is, you can bring Robin on stage with you, and you’re stronger together than apart. What that looks like, in practical terms, and this is gonna really shock some people. Because what most people do, if they’re about to give a speech, or have a difficult conversation, is the punching Robin in the face. And what that looks like is they rationalize fear away, there’s nothing to be afraid of, I’ve got this, I’m totally prepared. They take three deep breaths, they breathe in calm, they breathe out their fear. They just block it out by maybe cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, more positive, they replace it with something more positive. Like, all these things that we’re taught to do regarding fear, are just forms of resistance. And they work. They’re proven by science to work. In fact, scientifically, they work, they calm you down in about four minutes. And that’s why they’re taught. You know, that’s why everybody teaches this kind of thing. And they rationalize there’s nothing to be afraid of. It’s just false evidence appearing real. It’s just all in my head. That is absolutely not true. It is very scary to give a speech. So and then you start to distrust yourself. So there’s long term consequences of that. And there’s Carl Jung, whatever you resist persists. So yes, it works. But then the next time you give a speech, you have to do it for four and a half minutes. And then the next time it takes five minutes, and the next thing you know, you go home and you have an anxiety disorder, that seems unrelated. You’re like What’s up with this? I just had a panic attack or you’re picking fights with your wife. You know, because you haven’t dealt with your fear at work, and you’re just kind of throwing it at her when you get home, or you can’t sleep, you have insomnia because you didn’t deal with your fear during the day. It gets very clever. It hijacks your mind in the middle of the night when you’re trying to sleep and runs its agenda in your thoughts in the middle of the night, or you have PTSD from giving the speech, on and on. I mean, you eventually wind up with some form of weird depression or anxiety disorder. It’s like, next thing you know, there’s some part of your life that just doesn’t make sense. So that’s the first choice. You know, that’s the punching Robin in the face. The second choice is what I teach is a four step process of I mean, I feel like I’ve been talking for a long time. Do you have any questions before I move on to that? 

Murray Guest  35:47

No this is great. I’d love to. Well, the second choice is bringing Robin on stage.

Kristen Ulmer  35:51

Yeah. And it’s a little more nuanced than that. It’s more about honoring Robin. So that Robin isn’t hysterical. You know?

Murray Guest  36:01

Yeah. I’m seeing old Batman TV show here with a POW and a Wham. And that’s what I’m seeing.

Kristen Ulmer  36:11

Yeah, but usually they’re fighting enemies you know. Fear’s not an enemy, fear’s your Robin. So it’s how you treat Robin. How I deal with fear, when I’m about to give a speech is I go find, of course, I’m always super nervous before I go on stage and the word anxiety, nerves, worry, are just other names for fear. You know, we don’t like to call it fear anymore. We call it anxiety. Like nobody calls it fear. Like the guy on Wall Street, he’s like, Oh, my gosh, I’m pickled in anxiety. And we’re like, oh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But if he says, Oh, I’m pickled in fear, they’re like, Oh, my gosh, what’s wrong with you?

Murray Guest  36:49

Yeah.

Kristen Ulmer  36:50

It’s the same exact thing! Specifically anxiety is recirculating fear that’s stuck in your body. And it’s there because you’ve blocked fear from being in flow, and it’s stuck in your body and recirculating.

Murray Guest  37:04

Can I just say, and the bit that you said before, which I absolutely loved, and I want to make sure that people didn’t miss it is, if we push it aside, we don’t discuss it, we don’t embrace it. We don’t, you know, welcome it in some area, it’s going to show up and recycle and get, you know, like a volcano and show up in some other way in our life. And I think it’s so powerful.

Kristen Ulmer  37:29

It could show up as anger issues too, like, classic example is somebody that, like a kid that has a really scary home life. And fear makes him feel powerless, but he has to feel something. And so he feels anger instead. Because it makes him feel powerful. But fear and anger are very closely tied. In fact, when I mentioned getting the primary emotions, in some studies, anger isn’t even a primary emotion. Anger is mostly made up of fear. So yeah, like for for fight, it’s anger, for flee, it’s fear. Yeah, so anyway, it’s just God, it’s such a bad idea to resist fear. And yet, every single self help guru or psychologist or doctor will help you do that. Cause it works. Right.

Murray Guest  38:24

Yeah, but I think the bit that you’ve you’ve very clearly articulated is it works for a period of time, for a moment in time.

Kristen Ulmer  38:31

Yeah right. Right. And then, of course, people ultimately medicate their fear away. And 20 to 40% of their aliveness in the process.

Murray Guest  38:41

I have a question. Do you think you would have done anything differently when you were extreme skiing, if you knew what you know now, back then.

Kristen Ulmer  38:56

Yes, absolutely. And just bookmark the four steps. I will say that the reason why I know all this is because I did some things right by fear. And I did some things wrong by fear during my ski career. And what I’m explaining, you know, that people do wrong by fear I myself did. I was one of those really clueless, stupid athletes that walked around all cocky and arrogant, saying, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m lucky to be alive. I also burned out. You know, I thought I burnt out on the skiing but really, I burnt out on how much effort and energy it took me to block out fear, a tremendous amount of fear and I I crashed my adrenals, I wound up also having PTSD because I saw a lot of friends die and didn’t know how to handle the emotions there for my ski career. Another thing is I became such a rigid person in order to not feel fear and after about 10 years, like I was just in a sport as violent as extreme skiing, you need to be more slinky-like, and like we look at ski racers, for example, and they’re in their 30s. And they start having an injury after injury after injury. What is that? It’s not because they’re getting older. It’s because they’re very rigid in order to be quote, fearless, and you throw a tin can against a brick wall, it’s gonna break, right? Yeah, you throw a slinky against a brick wall, it’s gonna be just fine. They just become so rigid that the slightest, you know, issue, you break. So I had a lot of injuries. And it almost got to the point where every time I went skiing, and I did something difficult or dangerous, that required an impact, I wound up having at least a little injury from it. Not because of my age, but because of my compromised relationship with fear. But the things that I did right by fear is what made me a world class athlete in an incredibly difficult sport. So I had a real paradox going on, I both radically did what should be done regarding fear. And that’s what made me so great. And I radically did what shouldn’t be done regarding fear. And that’s what caused a lot of problems for me. And when I retired, I set to figure out what the heck had gone wrong. And that’s what led me to the conclusions that I’ve come up with today that have been tried and true with, you know, a lot of like, probably 10,000 people now. So.

Murray Guest  41:22

Yeah, and as you’ve said a number of times, and I totally agree, this is a human thing. It’s not an athlete thing.

Kristen Ulmer  41:29

Yes. Yes, it is. I mean, look at the statistics of anxiety disorders. They’re, they’re only getting worse and worse and worse, despite all these methods and modalities, you know, to punch Robin in the face, like, we’re only getting more and more afraid we’re only having greater anxiety, greater depression, greater PTSD. It’s like, one in five people in America have an anxiety disorder. One in four Europeans struggle with either anxiety or depression. Like it’s crazy. And the numbers are just getting worse every year. Despite all these meditation apps and breathing exercises and cognitive behavioral therapy, it’s not working. Right? Let me tell you what does work though.

Murray Guest  42:14

So I’m on stage with, I’m Batman, I’ve got Robin, I haven’t punched him. You know, we’re a partnership. What am I doing next?

Kristen Ulmer  42:26

Okay, so let’s back up. I was recently asked to give a speech, and it was in front of 10,000 people, it was last weekend. And it’s a lot of people. It’s very scary. And for me, I’m on the phone, they’re like, do you want to do this? They’re gonna pay me a lot of money. And I thought, well, the question isn’t, you know, do I want to do this, or make that kind of money? The question is, am I in the mood for fear right now? A lot of fear, because it’s going to be super scary. And the answer was..

Murray Guest  42:58

Can I just pause, because there’s a really good lesson here, which is, it’s not like tick, I’m done with fear. Because here I am talking to you. And you’re very open and vulnerable that it is an ongoing conversation relationship. And I think that’s really important that people don’t look at you or someone else and go, Oh they’ve got it sorted, they’re done. And I think this is really important that it’s actually an ongoing, help me if I’m getting this incorrectly, but it’s an ongoing relationship with our fear. And that ongoing self awareness.

Kristen Ulmer  43:31

Yes. And, you know, when my book came out three years ago, I googled it, you know, people that are fear experts anxiety, you know, fear. Everybody has an opinion about what to do about fear, but nobody on the planet that I could find anywhere. I mean, I spent days searching, was willing to call themself a fear expert. And why is that? Because I think that we expect our fear experts to a) be fearless and b) teach other people how to be fearless. It’s impossible. And it’s undesirable. Nobody’s willing to claim that they’re fearless. That’s just, you know, ridiculous. So yes, I’m a fear and anxiety expert. And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, this is gonna be terrifying. 10,000 people. And, and it’s way out of my comfort zone. Like the most i’d spoken to was 1500 people when I got the phone call. So then I hang up the phone. And I said, Yes, of course. Because feeling fear is my thing, right?

Murray Guest  44:29

Yes.

Kristen Ulmer  44:30

I’m not a fear avoider. I embrace fear. I know that it’s gonna expand who I am as a person. And I figured, okay, either I’ll do a great speech, and then I’ll feel amazing afterwards, and feel the cortisol high and all of that. And I’ll have felt connection to the audience and gotten my message out there. Or I’ll crash and burn. Right, humiliate myself and have another growth opportunity to know what not to do next time. So either way, it’s a win. So I say yes. And then I have three months with fear just nagging me, you know, Robin’s like, Hey, you better stop watching Netflix, you better get your butt off the couch and write that speech and memorize that speech, or else you’re going to be really embarrassed. So it motivates me, you know, there’s a saying in Zen, a good horse moves even the crack of a whip. So it was like cracking me like you got to get off your butt. So then I prepared, prepared, prepared, and I like to be just a little underprepared the day of so that the fear can be with me to help keep me sharp and focused. If I have the speech to memorize, I just blank out and just blah blah blah, right, and repeat it like a robot. So the fear, I know it’s going to keep me sharp and focused and on point when I give the talk. So I’m a little underprepared. So it’s 10 minutes before I’m going to go on, last weekend. And I’m terrified. I’m shaking, you know, I’m about to talk about fear and anxiety, and I’m practically having a panic attack. So this is what I did. And I went and found a quiet place to be by myself. And I did four steps, I closed my eyes, and I acknowledged that it’s normal and natural for me to feel fear. Of course, I feel fear, you know, I’m about to give a speech. It’s not a sign of personal weakness, it’s not a character flaw. It’s just a sign that I’m human. And that’s the acceptance part. You know, the second step is I found the fear in my body, like, Where was it, it was in my chest and in my throat. And I put my hand on it, and I noticed how strong it is. And then the third step is I then looked into whether I was in resistance to this fear. You know, I don’t after teaching what I teach for a really long time, I’m very rarely in resistance to my fear anymore. But certainly when I was just putting these concepts together, I was still in resistance to it. I didn’t want to feel it. And the resistance actually is the awful feeling, not the fear itself. So I then notice, am I in resistance to this fear? And what if it was there, what it would look like is I don’t want to feel this, I don’t want to do this, I don’t want to be here. This sucks. I hate this feeling. I hate this feeling. You know, it involves thoughts, but it wasn’t there, right. But you want to check in on the resistance, because you want to have that antenna up, you want to have that awareness. Suffering equals discomfort times resistance, if your discomfort of fear is a level 10. And your resistance is a level 10. 10 times 10. That’s a whole lot of suffering. But if your discomfort is a level 10, which you’re going to feel innately you know, and your resistance, which is, you know, is taught in our culture. Let’s say you get it from a 10 down to a one, what’s 10 times one, not a lot of suffering, you get the resistance down to a zero, there’s no suffering. And it’s that way with anything hot, cold… Wim Hof, like, you don’t resist the cold, it takes you into an altered state. You go into a sweat lodge, you don’t resist the heat, it takes you into an altered state. With fear, if you don’t resist the fear, it takes you into an altered state. Same with pain. That’s the reason why people love getting tattoos, half of them, they don’t resist the pain, it takes them into, like any kind of lack of resistance. It just takes you into a flow state. And then level four. And this is where the science comes in. I mentioned before that if you rationalize it away, you know, if you take breathing exercises, the fear calms down in four minutes. If you do step four, it’s been proven by science, the fear calms down in four seconds. And there’s no long term effects. Which is level four or step four. I just had an intimate experience with my fear. So I just put my hand on my chest where the fear was, and I just had kind of a like, put the Barry White on, right. It’s not sexual. You hear intimacy. It’s more like, like, have you ever had an intimate experience with a piece of cheesecake?

Murray Guest  49:12

Oh, yeah. Yeah, blueberry cheesecake.

Kristen Ulmer  49:16

Oh, yeah. So imagine putting your hand on wherever your fear is and having an intimate experience with that fear. And it calms right down. And anyone that has a child, if their child’s upset and has a lot to say, if you just spend some quality time with them, and just completely love on them. They always calm right down. It’s the same with your fear. And then I went on stage and I was very reasonable and Robin was there with me to keep me sharp and focused because I was a little underprepared and he wasn’t screaming or yelling, and it was a really beautiful practice.

Murray Guest  49:54

Yeah, well, and I’m sure you knocked it out of the park. The bit that I think I also take from that, as you said that underprepared bit is that level of underprepared keeps you on your toes, keeps you focused, keeps you aware. Keeps you curious, I would say.

Kristen Ulmer  50:09

And why is that, is the question. Well, because the fear is the very thing, that little extra drop of fear. It’s like the secret sauce to great performance.

Murray Guest  50:24

Wow, this has been so good. Thank you. This is awesome. And those four tips, those four tips, I think, whatever you are facing as a person in your life right now, I’ve got a mountain bike trail that I go to regularly and as you know, I ride, still. And there’s a name of this part of the trail called ‘the drop off’. That name, when I hear it, I can feel it in my gut straightaway. I’m like, it’s the drop off. And I’ve seen someone go over the handlebars down the drop off. And so I can now have a better way to approach the drop off, which I’ve been avoiding every time I get there. There’s the A line, there’s the B line. We want to take the A line. But you know, I’ll be taking the B line now. So how do I now prepare myself and actually stop future projecting myself into that situation? And and pushing the fear? As opposed to right, how do I prepare myself and be having an intimate relationship to where I feel that fear in my guts. I’ll get back to you on that one.

Kristen Ulmer  51:35

Okay, well, I’ll just real quick, you know, like anything, it takes practice, do the four steps before you go out on the mountain bike trail. So that you’re prepared.

Murray Guest  51:44

Yeah. But as you talked us through that journey of your presentation, this is a four step process you could apply to a difficult conversation or presentation. You know, facilitating a discussion in a meeting, you know, the list could go on. Because any of those situations, because I think, here’s a part that I think that I think you’ve mentioned, but I just want to make sure that we sort of mentioned it in that is that the level of fear that someone feels no matter what they’re doing, it’s their level of fear. It’s not, I’ve got to feel the same level of fear as someone else. Like it’s a very unique and personal thing, isn’t it?

Kristen Ulmer  52:26

It is and it isn’t. You know, other people are just really good at pretending they don’t feel fear. Like I think that I think that everyone comes with a basic kind of general comfort zone. Like Alex probably started with a bigger comfort zone than most and other people are, you know, maybe innately born to be more fear avoidant. But I think that pretty much all of us feel fear every moment of every single day in nearly every interaction we have. And there’s no exceptions to that. There’s one woman that had a damaged amygdala. And they were worried she wasn’t going to live for very long, like, imagine an animal that had no fear response, out on a freeway, like they don’t live very long. So no, we’re we’re all, like, if you’re ever wondering if you feel more fear than other people, I don’t think you are. You know, it’s all determined by how we deal with the fear. That makes all the difference in the world.

Murray Guest  53:26

Yeah. I’ve just thought of something. I’m gonna throw this out there. Have you seen the new trailer for the new Dune movie that’s coming out?

Kristen Ulmer  53:35

I haven’t.

Murray Guest  53:37

So I haven’t read the book. But my wife tells me I need to read the book. There’s a statement at the end of the movie, which is fear is the mind killer.

Kristen Ulmer  53:49

The writer of Dune is one of my, I mean, his quotes about fear are my least favorite. Almost.

Murray Guest  53:56

Yeah, and I’m just thinking, and I’m taking this way out of context, but I’m wondering what the intent of that is.

Kristen Ulmer  54:05

It’s just wrapped up in the same message that everybody is saying out there that fear is the enemy. I would modify. I’m really good at modifying quotes. I would modify that quote to say the unwillingness to feel fear is the soul killer. Or let me try it. Let me see. Thinking about fear rather than feeling it will kill your mind. I don’t like that one. 

Murray Guest  54:37

I like the first one. Yeah, that was good. That was good.

Kristen Ulmer  54:43

Yeah.

Murray Guest  54:44

So to wrap this up, I got a couple of last questions to ask and I asked some people this question and you’ve reminded me of the power of getting our message out because you’ve got so much to share. If I gave you a billboard on the side of the freeway that everyone’s going to drive past and see, everyone in the world, all 7 billion of us going to see this billboard. What’s your message on that billboard? Let’s just think we can travel by the way, because right now travel is a bit of a difficult thing, but you know.

Kristen Ulmer  55:25

Resist well, geez, your relationship with fear is the most important relationship of your life. So make sure it’s a great one.

Murray Guest  55:35

Love that. Love that. Yeah, I think, and I heard that from you in Bali, and that has stuck with me. And that I think takes us full circle with what we’ve talked about today around how important that self awareness is and how your relationship is, and we’re not punching our fear in the face. But you know, or that roommate of fear. But yeah, having that healthy relationship. Yeah.

Kristen Ulmer  56:00

And maybe the where we can leave it too because it we’re in times of COVID right now, right now, it’s really, really clear what people’s relationships with fear are. Like the people that ignore fear, ignore the Coronavirus. It’s like, it’s really becoming clear, like I can see everywhere what people’s relationship is with fear, if they’re, you know, resistance like I said, comes in many different forms. And the most common ways that I see people deal with fear or not deal with fear, are, they ignore it, they avoid it, they run away from it. Like one of the current techniques that people do, you know, to deal with anxiety or fear is they exercise a lot, you know, or go do yoga. And they see it as a way to deal with their fear. But I see it as their way for them to continue to not deal with fear, because then it makes their life tolerable, so that they, you know, can get by it’s like they get by another, I actually have a couple of friends that have to exercise like four or five times a day, you know, like four or five hours a day just to be able to sleep at night. They’re just, it’s just, it’s not helping them, it’s actually giving them just a band aid so that they don’t ultimately ever deal with the issue at hand, which is they’re not dealing with their fear in an honest way. And so right now, because it’s scary time, and we have the time like this would be a perfect opportunity to start a fear practice, and learn how to be intimate with your fear, and even just spend a moment to just be honest about how afraid you are of getting the Coronavirus. It’s not even the deaths, but it does incredible damage to your brain and your lungs and your taste buds like and on and on. It’s just, also somebody who’s losing their business that they’ve developed for 30 years, like, it’s a super scary time for them, can they just sit with their fear, instead of trying to drink it away or, like can we all just take a moment now that we have a pause, to learn how to find our fear in our bodies, notice if we’re resisting it, touch that spot and maybe not resist it this time, but embrace it, like give it a hug. Give it some love. If you learn how to love your fear, it’s self love practice, you know at its finest, and then learn how to be intimate with it. It’s like being intimate with the nature of life itself. And then just see what where that river takes you like, just be in flow with it. Until drop by drop by drop, you become a mighty river.

Murray Guest  58:40

Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, for your wisdom, for your your vulnerability of just your journey of understanding and exploring and helping us understand fear. And I’ll make sure there’s a link to your book, The Art of Fear, why conquering fear won’t work and what to do instead. Because it’s a fantastic book, and I’ll make sure there’s a link in that in our notes so people can check that out as well. It’s been so, so inspiring to have this conversation. So thank you Kristen, for your time. I do need to ask you, as this is the inspired energy podcast, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Kristen Ulmer  59:26

Well, if I were to keep on theme, the day that I am no longer interested in saying yes to scary things is the day that I lose my inspiration. It’s like fear is energy in motion. And by choosing to do things that scare me. It creates a lot of energy for me and it inspires me and it helps me expand to my greatest potential. And so the tie in for inspired energy and fear, it’s not at the denial of fear. It’s the inclusion of fear and you’ll find your greatest energy and your greatest inspiration.

Murray Guest  1:00:14

I think that’s going near, well, the top of the list of definitions. Thank you so much. Love it. Love it.

Kristen Ulmer  1:00:20

Last thing. I have a free fear and anxiety assessment on my website KristenUlmer.com. And if people want to start raising their antenna, it’s totally free. It’s 20 really fascinating questions and you can find out what your unique relationship is with fear that you may not be aware of.

Murray Guest  1:00:38

So I’ll make sure there’s a link to that because that is awesome. Also, the book plus also you run ski camps, the art of fear ski camps in Utah. So I hope that with all COVID and what’s happening and moving forward, you’re still getting to do those in the in the near future.

Kristen Ulmer  1:00:58

I am with safety precautions in place, of course.

Murray Guest  1:01:01

Yeah. Great. So I’ll make sure that’s all linked in our show notes for people to check all that out. And honestly, if you’ve got something from this conversation, as you’re listening to this, please make sure you tag Kristen and myself on social media and share that. And if you didn’t get something out of this, you weren’t listening. There was so much gold. What Kristen had to share. So thank you again so much. I really appreciate your time, your knowledge and your openness for all that you are doing to help us reframe and understand fear better.

Kristen Ulmer  1:01:33

Thank you, Murray.

Episode 74 – Jim Collison | CliftonStrengths Community Manager Gallup

In this episode I chat with Jim Collison, a powerhouse Talent Acquisition and CliftonStrengths Community Manager at Gallup.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Jim, I am so excited to be catching up with you on the podcast, I have known you for, it must be four years. And I’ve heard your voice dozens, if not hundreds of times. So great to have you on the podcast. How’ve you been? How are you this week? 

Jim Collison  00:18

Muz, great to be with you. Sorry in advance that you had to listen to that voice hundreds of times. But I hope it’s been helpful.

Murray Guest  00:26

Definitely been helpful. You are a leader, obviously, in the strengths industry, in the strengths movement, and helping people really more deeply understand what it means to really focus on what it is that makes them so unique. Now, I want to ask you something that I don’t know the answer to to kick us off. Why strength for you?

Jim Collison  00:51

That’s a good, it’s a super good question. Probably 15 years ago, I was a part of an organization that had been purchased by another organization. And we were the one that got bought. And so we were sitting around because there wasn’t a lot to do you know, in the in between time. So I was kind of looking for some things to do. And I came across that book First Break All The Rules. It had to be I mean, it was a brand new book at the time. And I read through it cover to cover and I went oh my gosh, like, not only do I want to be led this way, I want to lead my family this way. And I took that book kind of as a as a parenting guide, kind of crazy. Well, the follow on to that is Now Discover Your Strengths. And so I looked around the building, of the organization I was part of. It had been an early adopter of strengths. And it had never made it to our department. So I looked around the building and found Now Discover Your Strengths and took the assessment. And for the first time ever, kind of nailed me as an individual. Kind of like, yes!

Murray Guest  01:57

Had you done other assessments before strengths?

Jim Collison  02:03

No I really hadn’t. That had just not been a part of a part of what I done. But after taking that one, I remember taking it home and saying not only do we need to parent this way, but this thing really nailed me. And we got a book for Sarah, my wife. And she took it and I think for the first time I understood our marriage. Well, it’s like, oh, okay, so, you know, 15 years ago, early in the strength journey, you know, never could have predicted that my life would have turned out to be what it is today of podcasting a couple times a week on the subject, it seems like especially here during the pandemic. And so that was the early genesis of it that was this opportunity to, to to see it for real, in how those, I hear this experience from people who take it. And I see them online, I talked to them on Facebook, it and that never gets old because that was that was my experience as well.

Murray Guest  02:58

So when you say you really understood your marriage, and I guess the key part of that is understanding Sarah, is there a partnership or a complementary strengths that happened between you and Sarah in your relationship?

Jim Collison  03:13

We finally understood or at least I finally understood our opposites, right? They always say opposites attract. And for the longest time, I never, I never really understood her belief. And I didn’t know what to call it. But I have, I have so little of that I have so much situational ethics, I have so much fire fighting in the moment, I have so many shades of grey. And she is black and white with belief like belief, discipline, one, two for her. And I just didn’t think that was possible in a person, just to be honest, like I was like, there is no way anybody can be that disciplined, and then have those values and beliefs that are so locked in. And so I doubted it for a lot of years. And I just I just didn’t think it could be true. And in some cases, I kind of fought it. And that was not good for our marriage. And so once I understood I could trust it. It was true. It was what she said it was, well that that changed a lot of things for us. And you know, it’s not like the sun came out and rainbows appeared. And they’re unicorns. We still had lots of work to do. Yeah, but it began the process of some, some healing and some moving forward and some other things we struggle with early in our marriage. It was a significant moment.

Murray Guest  04:30

Yeah, for Tammy and I it was her activator and connectedness versus my responsibility. And we would, I would say get triggered at times. Where early on it’d be like, she would say, let’s go for a holiday. Let’s just go! And I’m like, hang on, hang on. We got to organize, have we balanced it out? Have we worked it out with my ex wife, with the kids? Have we budgeted for this? She goes, No it’s all going to work out. My connectedness says it’s all going to work, let’s just go. And I could feel internally that this this was wrong.

Jim Collison  05:05

You know, when we were the we were the opposite of you guys. I’m like, Hey, let’s just go figure this thing out, right? We’ll be fine. Let’s just go figure it out. Let’s get one step at a time, we’ll figure it out. And she wanted to know all the details, she kind of, she needed that stability she wanted, she needed to know, way ahead of what things were happening. And it was it was difficult for us for sure. I’m sure you felt that as well.

Murray Guest  05:32

Yeah. And I would say that, again, like, similar to your story there for us, it’s been a way to have the conversations without getting emotional, not negative emotion. So just saying a helpful emotional way of really understanding each other. And to help say, oh so that’s the way you see the world. And a link here that I can draw, I’ve ran lots of workshops with teams, and the slide with the Don Clifton quote, which says, Let’s look at what’s right with people not fixate on what’s wrong with them. Honestly, Jim, early on, I would sort of introduce that quote, and just move on. And I then came to this realization, we need to really just talk about what does it mean to make people right. And now I have, in sessions, had half an hour to an hour conversations, not even talking about strengths, how do we make people right? And I think that’s what we brought into our marriage. So is that what you think has also happened in your broader family about how we see each other in a way that we look at each other and making each other right, and you know, those differences and appreciating those? 

Jim Collison  06:45

Yeah that’s a really good question. And we started parenting our children kind of with this mindset of let’s figure out what they’re good at. And then let’s really give them every opportunity to do that. And, you know, again, a good example of, you know, you think so, okay, that’s gonna lead to these perfect kids that are going to do these things, right. And, you know, my oldest, big kid, great football player, and we did everything we could to encourage him in the sport to play. And I remember having a conversation, he could have played the one level, maybe scholarship level, here in the United States pretty easily. And I said, you know, we need to do a few things. This was like his junior year, we’re gonna need to do a few things if you’re going to do that, to put you in a position. He goes, Yeah, I’m not really interested in that. Like, it was, he didn’t think about or he had thought about it in advance. He goes, ah my shoulder hurts, and my knees aren’t very good. I don’t want to be crippled for the rest of my life. And you had this realization, like, Oh, as a parent, I was kind of hoping he would continue to play football and none of the other kids were, were athletically inclined. And so this was going to be, for the most part, the end of our kind of sports with our kids. And, but that didn’t mean I kept… Yeah, he was good at it. But that doesn’t mean I just keep pushing him. You know, like, wow, that’s, that’s too bad for you, you’re gonna do this thing. It also means listening. And saying when they say, Hmm, you know, and he had he had solid reasons. Now, there’s been, you know, there’s been times my kids have said, Yeah, I’m not really interested in school, I’m not going to do my homework. And you go, you don’t have a choice. This is what you need to do. Right? So there’s, there’s differences in that, but Muz we really spent an enormous amount of time trying to figure out, where do their gifts and their talents lie. We’ve had top five taken for all the kids. And in not just what their themes are, but then what are those areas where they invest and they really become strengths. And then how can we encourage more of that, and that’s not perfect, by the way, it’s super, super hard to do. Because they don’t know themselves. And so, but but we have spent, you know, the last 15 years really kind of working on that. My youngest daughter is now a senior in college in in a journalism program. And she’s a great example of you know, she was really good at math. And her math teacher was like, she can go places with math. And she’s like, I hate math. I do not want to do this long term. I want to be a journalist. And so we sent her to a j school at a local college around here, I just dropped her off tonight, that’s got a really great program, and she’s thriving in it. And so you know, if we would have followed maybe even her teacher’s recommendations without really talking to her about it and saying, what are your passions? What are you really good at? She’s great at writing and editing and all those things as well. We would have missed it, you know, and so there’s sometimes I think, too, there’s, realizing what they don’t want to do, even if they have the natural talent and aptitude. Maybe it’ll come back at another time. She recognizes it.

Murray Guest  09:57

Do you think that’s also a difference between being good at something, and something that you really love doing that energizes you and you thrive at.

Jim Collison  10:04

Yeah, right on, I’m a really good test taker, like, I am really good at taking tests, but then that information is gone, you would not want me as your doctor, I’d study for the test, and I’d be able to do it on game day. But then, you know, when it came to the actual, practical application of it, I need to do things over and over and over again, you know, I’m a better talker than I am, you know, in science or in math. So, yeah, I do think there are things we’re good at, that we don’t, you know, those things are good every once in a while, but that’s definitely, you know, maybe not where we want to lean all of our time into, and Muz, I think, let me ask you this, let me reverse, you know, the roles here. I think sometimes those things change over time, as well. In other words, I, I discovered some things I get good at it, I do it for a while. And then I kind of figure like, okay, it’s been a season for me, have you had that experience where you’ve done something well for a while, you really enjoyed it, and then it kind of it changes on you?

Murray Guest  11:03

Yeah, well, I reflect back early in my career, being a quality manager, and I would crunch numbers around quality data, using Excel and Access and, you know, out of a data cube and doing all of that. And honestly, Jim, that does not excite me thinking about doing that at all right now. Put me in front of a group of people, you know, getting a chance to talk to someone like you like we are today, that fills me up, that energizes me. Whereas that and, and to find out Communication is, you know, number three in my top five was not a surprise.

Jim Collison  11:39

It’s very similar. I was a data warehousing engineer at the bank when just before they got bought, and I wrote sql. I wrote code, and I was okay at it. I enjoyed doing it. But it’s not something I’d want to do. I’ve done some project management. Nah, that’s not. It’s okay. I can do it. When I got the opportunity to start podcasting, you know, about 11 years ago now and 10 years with my own program. And then about eight years at Gallup, I found, for now, you know I say that people think that this is a foregone conclusion that I’m going to do this forever. And I’m like, right now, it’s great. I don’t know if it’s gonna last forever. I got to make hay while the sun is shining. So I’m doing as much as I can with it now. But that Woo, Communication, back loaded with some Maximizer in there, the Arranger and Activator, they’re perfect in filling that role, that that window may not always be open. But while it is I am. You know, I’m running through it as fast as I can.

Murray Guest  12:44

I think the fact that there have been, what is it? Six seasons? Eight seasons? Of Called To Coach, it links back to what would sort of alluding to here with strengths that there’s a real depth of understanding. It’s not like, hey, we’ve talked about the top the 34 themes, tick the box.

Jim Collison  13:02

Yeah, six seasons of Theme Thursday. Where that’s literally all we do, is talk about the themes. I joke, when I’m around strengths folks, I always joke and say, you know, we get sometimes we get stuck in the name it, name it and name it, we never actually aim that thing towards something. And then I’m a hypocrite because I go right back to the six years of Theme Thursday, that is literally a name it, name it and name it exercise. But it speaks to the depth, right? Each season kind of has a different focus on this. And so the depth alone allows us to continue to work in that space and do those kinds of things.

Murray Guest  13:39

I want to ask you about your experience in podcasting. So I’ve got way less experience than yourself, but I’m absolutely loving it and getting some lessons. What have been some of the biggest lessons you’ve got just by doing podcasting as a, as a thing that you’ve been doing for so long now?

Jim Collison  13:57

Yeah, the number one thing I learned in this is that it’s my job as a podcaster as a web caster, as a broadcaster, whatever you want to call it, interview or whatever. Is to make other people the big deal. Like when I realize it’s my job to amplify other people’s messages, when it’s my job to make other people look great. When it’s my job to get out of the way and let other people have their time in the sun and to shine. It exploded. The you know, the effectiveness of it exploded, as far as it being the people listening to it and people using it, getting out of the way and letting the guest shine. That’s, that’s my job is to stay out of the way. Now, because I’m there and because I say those crazy things, I am Jim Collison and live from the Gallup studios for whatever, right, whatever we’re doing, I’m associated with it. And so I have some I have some recognition with that and it’s good. It’s just enough for me, but I’m not the expert. Right, it’s my job to find the experts. And to make the experts look great. And I think if anything that I’ve learned in this, that’s what I’ve learned is I’m, I’m, I am a good, I’m a good amplifier. I am a good at, hopefully, I’m good at making other people look great. And if that’s what I’m doing, then I’m happy.

Murray Guest  15:24

Can I add to your greatness, if I may? Because I want to highlight you today. It’s asking really good questions, which actually links to being a really good listener. And, and I can hear in the questions you ask, it’s, again, building off what that person is saying, creating this opportunity for them to to shine, and the question you’re asking is giving them that opportunity to do that. And I love the way you do that.

Jim Collison  15:53

It takes a little bit of practice, though Muz, to be honest, like, you know, people say, how do you do it the way you do it? And I said, what I’ve done it 1500 times, you know, I’ve done it, maybe 2000 times like it. I was just driving home tonight thinking I’m doing another podcast next weekend. And they’re gonna ask me like, how many podcasts have you done, and I was starting to piece them together. I think I’ve done, at first I thought like 1000. And then like, No, I think I’ve got a few more. Not bragging about the number that I’ve done. But just understanding the amount of practice, right, is that talent plus investment. That that that adds to this to this equation, right? Or I think it’s times in you, you just picked up a few things along the way. And so yeah, the ability to hear what people are saying, and then they’ll they’ll clue in to one little thing, and you hang on that for a second and then come back around and allow them to expand that out or know just enough things to kind of keep that conversation going. Know the right questions to ask at the right time. To really to really let them shine. Yeah, it’s practice. Like at the end of the day, it’s just practice.

Murray Guest  17:09

I think there’s a link here to coaching and I remember early on in high performance coaching program I did years and years ago, and that message of it’s all about the coachee, not the coach. And for you I’m hearing it’s all about the person you’re interviewing, not about you.

Jim Collison  17:23

Correct. Yeah. Correct. It’s, it’s really about giving them and setting them up to just to put the best foot forward they can and making them feel comfortable. I think this is okay. So that was one, making a big deal. But in the conversation, the second thing is, how do you make people feel comfortable? You know, and tonight, as we were connecting, you know, you’re like, yeah, you’re kind of relaxed. And I’m like, Well, if I was nervous, that would make you nervous. And we may not have that great of a conversation. I feel like it’s my job as the host. When people come on, even if the world is collapsing around us. I have to say, I got this, like, there’s almost, I tell guests, there’s nothing you can do I can’t fix. So don’t worry about that. Like, don’t think about that. You know, don’t worry about the lining. And don’t worry about your microphone, I’ve got all that, I’ll take care of, I’ve done this so many times. I can do this with my eyes closed or sleeping in some cases, because I do dream about podcasting sometimes. Right, it’s my job to make them feel comfortable.

Murray Guest  18:25

So let’s draw a link to the leaders that listen to my podcast. If I’m a leader, and I want to be better at shining the light on someone, creating opportunities for them to grow, and helping them feel relaxed and confident. What’s the lesson from podcasting of how we do that, that leaders could take on? What’s your tip there?

Jim Collison  18:46

As a leader, you got to give up everything. Because, you know, we go into podcasting thinking this is going to be my show. Yeah, like, or this is going to be my thing. And I have to give that up and say, No, this isn’t about me. This is about the other people I’m having on, this is about what’s going on in their world. And I did give that up. And I think leaders, the really good ones get this naturally is that it’s never about me as a leader and how to advance my career. It’s always about advancing the careers of those around me. And, and rising tides lifts all boats. All ships, right. And so it really to be honest with you, if you’re a leader give up on that anyways, there’s, there’s nothing in that, like, you don’t want that next position, just to be 100% honest with you. You’ve got one right in front of you now. And as we record this, you know, it’s October of 2020. Muz we’re in the middle of a crisis. And we need good leaders to kind of give up on themselves and their career and say, How can I advance the careers of others? What can I do to bring this team together and move them forward? The best thing for your career is maybe giving up on it, then really leading people compassionately.

Murray Guest  20:03

I’m loving that we’re having a three hour conversation today, Jim about ego and letting go of the ego. So let’s do this. But you’re right. And can I just say you draw attention to a crisis, let’s just say we’ve got multiple of those at the moment. There’s lots going on. I actually, it’s funny, I think no matter where you are in your role as a leader in an organization, which which point you’re at, whether you’re a new leader, up and coming leader, or you’re, you know, heading towards the end of your career, and it’s about the legacy, it is about the people and those leaders you create around you to lift. Can I ask, just to peel back the layer one more bit? The letting go – what was that like as a journey? I’m sure that wasn’t just a flick of the switch one afternoon? 

Jim Collison  20:55

No it was kind of something I had to realize, even through parenting, was that the less the agenda was about me, and the more of the agenda was about my kids or, or about my marriage, the better it became, the more effective it was. And, and I actually early on, I managed at Gallup and I don’t know if was the best experience because I hadn’t seen yet that this wasn’t really about me. And so maybe, you know, maybe a decade ago that began to kind of really settle in. And I remember and like you said, it’s not like a switch flipped. But I remember at some point thinking, you know, it’s my job to make other people a big deal. Muz when I started doing that, right, when I realized that, my attitude about people changed. And the way I approach people changed. And I began thinking, I don’t care what’s in it for me. Like, this isn’t about me. I don’t care. In fact, oftentimes I have to be, I push things back. Because people want me in them. And I’m like, No, no, it’s not. It’s not about me. And they’re like, I know but we need you. Can you can you please say yes to this? Because we need you right now. We we just recently launched a new podcast in Portuguese, which is super cool. So we have some partners in Brazil, and I helped them get that going. And as we were talking about the format, they were like, Oh, yeah, and you can I’m like, No, no, no, no, I don’t speak that. We don’t care come speak English. And then we’ll speak Portuguese later. And and I kind of resisted it at first and at one point they asked me, no, we need you. Like, could you please be here and stop fighting us to not be here? And and yeah, no, absolutely. I get it. I get it to that point. So but but helping them, sacrificing for them, helping them. It’s why it’s eight o’clock on a Sunday. And I’m spending time with you. It’s why I produce a Theme Thursday in Japanese at 9:30 on a Tuesday and Wednesday nights. It’s why I’ll stay up till 12 to do a podcast in India. Right? Lots of folks like, you know, my friends at Gallup will be like, Man, it’s really late. I’m like, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter.

Murray Guest  23:17

So I’m linking there to when you find the thing that is your thing that inspires, lifts you, energizes you, you’re given the chance to be your best. Like you’re saying, it doesn’t matter. Because I can really, I’m in that flow. I’m loving it. How do you balance that out with looking after your own health though, that you’re not, you know, let’s say over playing, over dialing something there where you’re putting yourself, because you got to look after yourself through all that as well. So how do you do that?

Jim Collison  23:47

Yeah, you do. And yeah, I think you have to be intentional about that. Is your anything else. Early in the pandemic, I kind of came up with a micro workout concept where I would spend 10 or 15 minutes seven or eight times a day doing little mini workouts and that actually worked out really well for me. In early in the pandemic we had a lot of time. I had more time. Well, yeah, I had more time, a different schedule. When, in the summer when things started, really summer here in the United States. So June, July, August timeframe, things really got busy at Gallup, like things really, really picked up and I found it was just easier to sit in this chair all day. Right? And I’m confessing to you Muz that the last four months have been dismal in that area. Probably not sleeping as well. Probably not, you know, I put on the COVID-19 as they say, right? That I’m gonna have to lose again at some point. Um, well, so I keep saying to myself, it’s a season, things are just crazy right now. Next Wednesday, I leave for a week of vacation and I’m taking off to get some downtime. And by the way, I’m taking a vacation of five years. So this is a good like, a really good thing to get out. Get beyond for a week. And when I get back it’ll be a little bit cooler outside, it’ll give me an opportunity to work out a little bit more. The trick is it’s not forever, you know, it’s just been for four months.

Murray Guest  25:11

So I, over the past few months in my online programs, have asked leaders and team members, do you want life to go back? Do you want life to go back the way it was pre COVID? And out of I think 200 odd people, it was like, 2 or 3% said yes. So I would like to know, what do you think it’s going to look like post the COVID-19? What do you think is, from what you’re hearing, what you’re feeling, what you’re sensing, what do you think it’s gonna look and feel like?

Jim Collison  25:44

A super great question. I think the rubber band is stretched and it will never really go back all the way to where it was before. It’s kind of this, the way I’m kind of thinking, I don’t think what we’re doing today is sustainable, to be honest. I just this, this craziness, this crazy thing we live in right now. It’s not sustainable. How long? I don’t know, if I could predict those kinds of things I’d be wealthy and not have to work another day in my life. So I can’t. But I think eventually we’ll get back to a hybrid. But certainly, what has changed is everyone’s up their game on remote working, and the ability to connect like this. Muz I’ve been doing this for 10 years now. And up until about eight, the first eight years, it was terrible to get people to do this. The lighting was bad. Their audio is bad. Everything was bad, right? Well, now because of work, they’ve had up their game, man that has made my life a lot easier as a podcaster. I just am like, it’s so much easier to get people to connect. And so I think our communication this way has gotten better. The ramifications of that, I’m not sure what that means. Because now I can be reached easier. You know, you’re reaching me at eight o’clock, 8pm on a Sunday night, I’m okay with that. But what will that mean? I don’t know how that all plays out, if that’s a good thing or a bad thing?

Murray Guest  27:10

Yeah, I think the the conversations around our ways of working with teams is really, really important. So let’s get some alignment and agreement around, well, what does that look like? If I’m a team member, I’m working from home three days a week, and my working hours that meet the needs of the business, but I’ve also got that balance, I’m looking after myself and my family at the same time. So removing assumptions and having those conversations is really important.

Jim Collison  27:37

I’ve actually worked more hours at home, you know, down here, sooner, most days start about 7:30 as opposed to use to starting at 8:30, when I would when I drive in most days finish at 5:30 or 6, which is kind of standard for when I was in the office. So I’m starting a little bit earlier, I’m being a little bit more effective. I am fine. I’m sitting a lot more here. Because I used to at least walk to meetings. Now you just dial up people. I am finding though I’m having more smaller meetings throughout the day. And they’re more effective, because we don’t chit chat this way.

Murray Guest  28:17

See, and can I just say that’s a real challenge for teams. And I think I’d love to get your perspective that I think it’s a Simon Sinek quote, which is, “Teams are built before the meeting starts.” And with Zoom, and whatever online platform you’re using, Microsoft Teams or whatever, it’s like, okay, we’re on, let’s chat about the topic, we’ve got not the the investment in us as human to human connecting. So I think it’s really important we don’t skip that. We bring that into the conversation.

Jim Collison  28:46

Yeah. And I try to actually connect early to be there for anybody else joining early and then have those, try to have those conversations. At Gallup we’re a super social company. So the first five minutes is that kind of connecting anyways. What I found in the past, though, is what we did is we talked, we would do that for 10 minutes, and then we’d have 15 minutes of a meeting and then we’d have 25 minutes after the fact. Okay, the 25 minutes is probably fat that we can cut, just to be 100% honest. Virtually, we just cut those off sooner. And so we’re just we’re more effective that way than we were. I am getting way more work done now than I was pre-pandemic, and it’s more satisfying, just to be honest. They’ve invited us to come back in we have all kinds of measures in place to make sure it’s safe and distancing and masked and all that stuff. But I’m finding I come down here in the morning and I’m like, ah, and not for safety reasons. Not for you know, not for what you think. I’m craving the work that I’m able to do here at home because it’s been so successful over the last six months.

Murray Guest  29:55

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. So I’d love to know for people listening, I’m sure would be intrigued. What’s the best thing about working for Gallup?

Jim Collison  30:07

So many great things about working for Gallup.

Murray Guest  30:10

That’s a good thing.

Jim Collison  30:12

It is, you know, the best thing for me is, is this thing called trust. And in the role that I’m in, over the last, especially the last eight years, I’ve worked with people who just trust me. And there’s nothing I… If you ask me, you know, what’s my greatest need? It is to be trusted. And I don’t know why, that’s crazy. You know, I just I mentioned early in this, my wife has belief and discipline, you think that would play nicely into that, and not as much, but at work, I want to be trusted. And and they have, you know, the folks that I work with, trust me to do what I need to get done. And it’s just, it has been in the freedom and the way that I need to get it done. Listen, it hasn’t come without questions. Like I’ve done some things. And they’ve been like, Hey, where are you going with that? I’ve made mistakes in the process. Don’t get me wrong. But that the trust to continue to push forward is is is paramount to my engagement.

Murray Guest  31:15

And obviously, we’ve got some strong links between high trust organizations and high performance and engagement.

Jim Collison  31:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, right on, I think it’s one of those, you know, of the four needs. I mean, that’s one of the four needs of followers.

Murray Guest  31:30

That’s exactly right.

Jim Collison  31:31

I think you just, for me, I don’t need as much stability. I need I do need a little hope. You know, in that, but man, the trust component of it is huge.

Murray Guest  31:43

Yeah. Can I ask if you feel like someone betrays your trust, is that a triggering thing for you? Is that like, hang on. If you don’t get it is that like, hey, we’ve got to sort something out.

Jim Collison  31:58

Yeah, I go a little sideways. If I’m either questioned or, or my integrity is questioned, or I see somebody going around me for something. And, by the way, they may be justified. You know, I don’t walk on water. Right. I walk in water. So it may be justified, but yeah that’s a definite trigger for me, I go a little sideways, when those kinds of things don’t happen.

Murray Guest  32:24

Is there any links you see between your dominant talents and trust?

Jim Collison  32:29

Oh, that’s a great question. I’m going to get coached, I’m gonna, I’m gonna treat this like some free coaching. This is gonna be pretty, pretty great. You know, I think so the Influence for me is so high, right? Four of five are influencing themes. And, and I’m a self admitted influencer, that’s what I do. It’s what my job is to do. And it’s tough if people don’t trust you, it’s tough for that influence to happen. And so I think there’s a correlation between the two, because I’m not just influencing our strengths coaches or I’m not just influencing folks who purchase Clifton strengths, or I’m not just influencing the community, I’m also influencing Gallup people, like it’s equally important that they trust me and that I that I help them move in directions I think is smart for us. And if they don’t trust me, it’s, you know, I just I dive in, I start, you know, calling. Hey, we got to talk about this thing. So yeah, I think it’s tied to the influencing for sure.

Murray Guest  33:28

Well, I mean, that’s a high trust culture to actually be able to ring someone and say, hang on, we need to talk about this and know that you’re coming from a place of good.

Jim Collison  33:37

Well, I just I had a call last week with a co worker who said to me, You said something and hurt my feelings, I just want to tell you that. Oh, what did I say? Sorry, you know, the 1000s of things I say a day. And it was a great moment of just healing and not to be like, Oh, you know I didn’t mean that. He’s like, I know, I know you didn’t. But it did hurt my feelings. I’m like, I’m sorry. Like, I didn’t intend to go down that path. So those kinds of things Muz in some organizations are cancer. And once it starts, right, then it starts then they start saying things and things are said behind people’s backs. And it starts growing in a team and the team falls apart over one person getting their feelings hurt. So I think it is important, we are able to have that openness. I do work with great people that I could just say, hey, that didn’t feel great when you said that. And they don’t immediately go on the defense. Right?

Murray Guest  34:36

I think, I mean, for people listening, that’s a great example of the measure of the trust in the organization, that you can have those conversations, and they can be challenging and constructive. And people are open to having those conversations.

Jim Collison  34:51

Yeah, yeah, it’s not easy. In the moment, I felt really bad. And when I got done with the call I was, then I start thinking about all the things I’ve said in the last couple of weeks, you know, you’re like, Oh my god, am I doing this to everybody? But no, it’s good.

Murray Guest  35:09

I had a company I was working with a few years back and one of their sayings was no triangles. And I loved it. It was, so Murray says something to Jim. Jim says something to Sarah. And Jim says to Sarah, I didn’t like what Mary said. But so then he goes to Sarah, and Sarah goes to me, and then I go back and we’re forming triangles everywhere, instead of just going back and forward. One on one. And it’s just a simple phrase, I loved it.

Jim Collison  35:36

I mean, to be clear, distrust among, in nature is important, because we won’t survive. If you trusted everything right. In, we are the dominant species on the planet, because we trusted each other at that point. And so I mean, that’s, that’s kind of genetically built into us. I think for some folks, it just needs to be learned, like, they just need to learn it’s gonna be okay. We don’t we don’t hang out in tribes anymore. So there’s not a lot of great opportunities for that to happen in our communications a little separated and now we don’t depend upon each other for some of those basic life and death things anymore, right. And so I think you got to kind of help teams along with that. And I’m not talking about falling backwards off the table, right? I’m talking about real world situations where managers practice that with their teams. Where the manager leads by saying, leading by example, and maybe be saying, Hey, I saw this happen. Let’s talk about it. Or, hey, I’m open enough that if I’ve hurt you, in some way, come tell me and then demonstrate what that looks like. When it actually, you know, the manager doesn’t get defensive. The manager doesn’t get angry. That has to be modeled. It’s hard. It’s the hardest part about being a manager, I think.

Murray Guest  36:55

Yeah. So I’m going back to your point earlier about letting go. It’s not about you. And being approachable, and, and being open and vulnerable and having those conversations. If we’re doing those things we are, you know, let’s say breaking some rules, like you said early on.

Jim Collison  37:14

Yeah, it’s not easy. This is not and it’s not magic. It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t, it doesn’t feel good. You think it’s Oh, yeah. Oh, I’m gonna get there. And it’s gonna be Nirvana. Right? No, this is actually in the midst of these these when you do them, right. It’s actually harder. But it’s better in the long run.

Murray Guest  37:33

Well, I think about that ongoing investment in the relationship you have with Sarah, I have with Tammy, as a leader, it’s very similar with your team. It’s that ongoing investment, having those ongoing conversations and doing that as well.

Jim Collison  37:44

Yeah, you gotta keep practicing.

Murray Guest  37:46

Yeah. So I want to go back to one of your top five, which maybe is quite often misunderstood. So Woo. Number two. When you saw that come out in your report, was that a ‘yeah, that’s a validation. I am not surprised,’ or was that a surprise for you?

Jim Collison  38:06

No it got a rock fest, like a fist pump. I was like, Yes. Because it did. I did. I did agree with all of it. Yeah, this is me. 15 years ago, when I first saw it, I didn’t really understand all the nuances of it. And so, you know, yeah, I’d love to, I love to get to know people. I love to be at the center of the attention of the party. I love to be the one pulling people together. I love you know, I loved all those things about it. What I kind of learned to what kind of learned over the years is that these aren’t, you know, being the life of the party is not a success trait. Like that’s not what Don Clifton meant, there’s some there’s some hints in there. But what he meant was, how can you have influence over people and move them in directions? I think it’s kind of the heart of leadership, in getting people, convincing people. I think it’s a sales theme, to be honest, by convincing people to do something different or to do more of the thing that they’re currently doing. Right, be more productive. The key word in there is ‘do’ – to get people to do – like that’s what it, that’s what we’re trying to get done here. And I think maybe the last five years have I really kind of understood as we’ve been doing all the theme Thursday’s that’s an influencing strength. It’s it’s moving people in directions. And I yeah, I really like that. That casts lots of success on a team. And so I got to deploy it through these webcasts. What we do on the webcast is one big woo exercise. Woo and communication, let’s be honest, and those come together pretty frequently.

Murray Guest  39:47

And and Woo, you could see exist as part of who you were even before? You know, knowing that it was…

Jim Collison  39:55

It’s my name. I’m the poster child. Like it should be me in there, I agree with it all, for sure.

Murray Guest  40:04

If you had to get one of your dominant talents tattooed on your body, to say, this is me, like I and I’ve truly lived breathed this, this is me which one or two would it be?

Jim Collison  40:17

I think in the last two years, I never really understood Maximizer. It just didn’t, and I’ve said this on the on the webcast. So if you’ve heard me say this before, I apologize. But I’ll say it again, because he asked the question. We always say quality, like they demand quality, and I didn’t see any of that in me. I mean, I don’t really care, to be honest. Like I say, Good enough, pretty often. And those kids think it’s like, what’s the deal here? And in my 40s, I started running. And I didn’t just run a 10 k, I mean I ran a few. And then I’m like, no, maybe I can run a half. And then I ran a few of those. And then I could probably do a full and then I did five of those. And as I started reflecting back, that’s a whole Maximizer. Because it’s whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing. Right, I’ve said that it has become my mantra over the last couple of years, in discovering that has been especially in the heart of the pandemic. You know, we did all last year, I did 50 webcasts all last year, I did 50 by June this year. I mean, if that is not an example of whatever is worth doing is worth overdoing during a pandemic, I could turn on, you know, a little help from activator in there. Yeah, I could turn on this woo, and communication and maximize, and using my definition, the crap out of it. And so if there’s anything that I that I value now that I didn’t understand just a few years ago, to be honest, that now I really, really value like, it’s probably my one serious strength. You know, it’s probably the one I think this could take me somewhere if I can just harvest this. And it’ll influence all the rest of them. So Maximizer would be the one for me, again, not a quality thing. I don’t make things better, although sometimes I do. I just do more than anybody else does. I can’t stop at one. You know, I gotta, if we’re gonna do one, we could do 10 or 100.

Murray Guest  42:10

So I’m making the assumption that that also just shows up for you week in week out about how do I make this better? How do I improve on the way I’m doing this?

Jim Collison  42:19

Yeah, if improve equals doing more then Yes. Like, I want to do more, and in most cases, Muz to be honest, they have to be done more efficiently. If I’m going to do more, they have to be more efficient. And so that means doing them better. You have a lot of people. So that all fits in that definition.

Murray Guest  42:36

Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. Um, so partnerships play a big part in your life. You’ve got some strong partnerships, you know, Micah is such a great one. What’s been your insights around partnerships over the years that you can really, you know, just reflect on and share that, that that sort of brought to the surface for you about how powerful partnerships are?

Jim Collison  43:03

Well, there, the power of two is amazing. And, you know, Micah is just the tip of the iceberg on my partnerships at Gallup. And some partnership I had that no one in this community will ever know is Jodi Kennedy. And actually, she was my first partner in recruiting. And Jody and I did some amazing things around internships and high school internships, stuff nobody will ever see except a whole different side of the world, right. And a powerful partner. The, the key was, I think, in those partnerships is I had to be willing to give as much as my partner was going to give and that it wasn’t just going to happen, I needed to cultivate it. And so you know, we’re in a little bit of a down cycle with Theme Thursday right now, because we’re done producing for the year, we have one more coming up, I don’t have as many opportunities to connect with Micah during this. She’s become an important part of just my weekly routine over the last six years of talking to her and getting coaching and the time we spend together and so I was just talking to her late last weekend like you know, we’re gonna have to schedule time like it’s this isn’t gonna just happen we’re gonna have to schedule time to be together to make sure we’re having, we’re fostering this. And the other part about that in the relationships is I had to completely be okay that I had to completely be okay with who she was both with with Sarah and with Micah and with Jodi, the gals in my life that I work with, I don’t just work with women. Dean is another great example of guys that I’ve worked with, Mike McDonald is another one right? I think I can you know, Jeremy Petrosini is another one right? That I had to be willing to give just as much in in in really be you know, not come demanding like you, you need to fill this role in my life. That’s not that’s not how it starts. It needs to be back to the you know, the conversation. How do I make like when when I figured out I need to make Micah a big deal. Our relationship began to grow at that point, because everybody wants to be a big deal. And then she reciprocated that.

Murray Guest  45:07

Yeah, yeah. And it shines through in the banter and the way that you just support each other through those those conversations. 

Jim Collison  45:18

Muz let me let me, before we move on from that, let me also say, I think sometimes that call it karma, the universe or whatever, whatever you want to fill in with that. But I think sometimes things align in a way and you connect with a person in a way, doing a job doing a task, doing a thing, where it just, it’s perfect. And in, you know, my work with Jodi, and my work with Micah, and I worked with Dean, the planets are aligned right now. And, and so those things are working really, really, very, very well. And I think you have to take advantage of that when it does hit. You can’t wait for tomorrow, there’s no manyana on there.

Murray Guest  45:58

Yeah.

Jim Collison  45:58

You need to nail it now. Because you don’t know it’s gonna, you know, you don’t know what’s going to happen in the future, you need to jump in with both feet and give it full attention and really maximize it. Again, there’s my Maximizer. Because it may not come back.

Murray Guest  46:15

Can I just say, I’m a) loving us chatting. And we didn’t know that where this would go. And, and I and I had no hesitation at all about where we’d go and b) the ideas that we’re sharing. You’re bringing up around what people can actually do about this stuff. So what I’m thinking right now is if you’re listening to this conversation, thinking, Okay, where do I take this? Take time out to think about those partnerships you have right now. And how do you actually invest in them even more, so that you can create what Jim’s talking about? And strengthen those partnerships, create the opportunity for us both to be the best that you can be.

Jim Collison  46:56

I think it starts with a simple question. What can I do for you today? Like, so many people are just waiting to hear those words. Like what can I do for you today? How can I help you? And then actually do it. Like it’s not, it’s not rocket science.

Murray Guest  47:12

Yeah.

Jim Collison  47:13

It’s it’s just a matter. It’s hard. Don’t get me wrong. It’s hard. But asking that question. What can I do for you today is super important.

Murray Guest  47:25

Besides the partnerships, and what we’ve talked about today, what’s your biggest reflection on 2020?

Jim Collison  47:39

We’re not through it yet. We have a we have a lot to,

Murray Guest  47:45

You have an election coming up too by the way.

Jim Collison  47:46

I know, I know it, trust me. And I just I just recorded the Gallup podcast, which I’m an executive producer for. We did an interview on Saturday for that. And I was listening to them talk and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, we have so much. We have so much yet to go through the year. Um, I am, well it’s been a disaster in a lot of ways, and a lot of people’s lives have been changed in this. I don’t like to waste any opportunity. And I think for some folks, this is an opportunity, an opportunity to retool, I think for some organizations, this is an opportunity to retool, for many of them, they’re decimated, and they’re gonna have to re hire back. Why not do it on a strengths based basis? Like, why not start doing things right now, if you’re changing jobs, maybe you’re listening to this, and you’re unemployed, and you’re thinking how to find a job, your next job, by the way, it’s a great opportunity to interview them before you go there to go to a strengths-based organization to get what you are looking for, to begin with. And so I don’t want to minimize anybody’s pain and suffering and difficult time at this point. I’m not trying to say, thank goodness for this. I’m not. It’s been a disaster for many people, and I definitely feel for them. Saturday was international Mental Health Day. And it came at a good time, because we all need to check that right. But at the same token, for some folks, this is going to be the opportunity they were waiting for. They were in a crappy job that they just couldn’t leave because they were afraid, or they didn’t want to leave because they were they don’t want to take the risk. Right. And for some organizations, they didn’t deserve to be around. Like, they were doing things terribly. And this shook it out. Right. And so I guess, you know, it’s I don’t want to say look on the bright side of everything, because I don’t think that’s what I’m trying to say here. But there are opportunities in this and as 2020 shakes out, I guess for the leaders that are listening, what kind of new opportunities do you have to make things better? Okay, how do you start 2021 better? What can you do right now, to finish 2020 strong. I think there’s some options for some people there.

Murray Guest  50:01

What I’m thinking about that, too is, you know, what can you do? What’s in your control? What can you take action on right now? There’s a bunch of things happening in the world right now that are out of our control. But what can you do that’s in your control, in your influence, and you take action on those things right now? And I think that’s been highlighted in 2020. I think trust, you mentioned trust and how important that is to you. But also think trust has been heightened and highlighted how important it is. Because we work these different working arrangements and people working different hours and flexibility. That doesn’t work without trust. We’re going to keep building that trust going forward.

Jim Collison  50:35

I totally agree.

Murray Guest  50:38

What’s the future of the strengths movement? In 25 words or less?

Jim Collison  50:43

I think it’s, I think it’s strong. I think it’s strong. And we have so many great, we’re just getting started Muz. Like, we haven’t reached any peak. There’s no like, we’re just getting going and by the way, I think for this next generation, these Gen Z years, or whatever we’re going to call them. They get this, but I think naturally, they get this. We don’t have to fight them. They understand that. Oh, yeah. If I focus on what I’m good at, yeah. So you know, the next generation, the working generation that’s coming in now, the young kids, they get it. And by the way, let’s stop picking on them. Okay, leaders, let’s stop making them feel bad about who they are. They’re the next generation. Let’s pump into them some confidence and stability, some hope, some trust, like, let’s start getting that into them, because they’re the next gen for us. And I think they’re going to be fantastic. My daughter is one of them. And I’m kind of looking forward to watching this generation rocket.

Murray Guest  51:45

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that’s a point that you kick that off with that so important that it’s not like, Hey, we’re there. Let’s tick the box. Because as you said, it’s still going, it’s still growing. There’s a depth that’s just evolving all the time. And, you know, let’s be honest, it’s not just Gallup that’s talking about strengths. You know, the amount of times I hear people saying, Hey, this is a good thing. We should be focusing on what people do at their best.

Jim Collison  52:11

Yeah, yeah. And we just have a system to do it. And it’s a pretty great system, I think. But we’ve got a lot of work to do. And you know, at the end of the day, doesn’t matter if, if I’m an Arranger, Woo, Maximizer, Communication, Activator, but it doesn’t matter if I’m not using it. We got to get people out there focusing on that using that for success.

Murray Guest  52:31

Yeah. 100%. Totally agree. I have a couple of questions to wrap us up in this wonderful conversation, let you get back to your Sunday night of relaxing. First question is, What is your definition of inspired energy?

Jim Collison  52:47

Yeah, you asked that on the form, by the way, I don’t ever relax. That’s just not a part of what I do. So let’s, let’s get that done. You know, and I think that maybe fits into my definition of inspired energy. Like, right now I’m in the zone, I can’t, I don’t want to relax. I don’t, I don’t need to relax. For the most part. Even on this vacation that I mentioned I’m going on earlier, it’s kind of a working vacation, I got some things planned. We’re gonna do some fun stuff. But it’s that energy driven when you’re wholly and completely engaged. Those are big definitions that there’s always, there’s always exceptions, right. But when you’re wholly and completely engaged in something, that energy that comes from that, if you ask me, I’d say that’s inspired energy. That’s how I would I would define it.

Murray Guest  53:30

Yeah, and I can feel that in the way you talk about your work and what this has been like for you, and the levels of productivity and satisfaction that you’re playing in. You know, it’s like, there’s exponential building on that energy, isn’t it? Like, yeah, I’m working, but I’ve got more energy.

Jim Collison  53:51

Exactly. You don’t want to stop. I’d say 530. And I’m like, I need to. I’ve been tracking down coaches around the world who I’ve lost contact with, by email. It’s an I have to find them on LinkedIn. It’s incredibly, it’s just manual. And I am pumping through those. I’ve done 1600 of those Muz over the last month and a half, just grinding through them because it needs to be done. Right. It’s just what I need to find these people that’s inspired right? Yeah, I have to find these people.

Murray Guest  54:18

Love it. Love it. And my friend, where’s the best place for people to connect with you online?

Jim Collison  54:25

Well, that’s always a great question, because I’m all over the place. The greatest place to connect with our strengths related work, is at Gallup.com/cliftonstrengths. And there are tons of resources available there, including all these podcasts that we talked about. The last couple years. They have transcripts associated with them. We have pull quotes in there all kinds of great materials. By the way, there’s great folks like Roy and Mark and Micah who do all that with me, right? Pretty, pretty incredible work that they do behind the scenes there. And so that’s really the best kind of way. If you want to, if you have questions about anything at Gallup, it’s easier to remember coaching@gallup.com, if you want to, they’ll route that to me if that’s what needs to go there. But that’s a lot easier than remembering my email address. So coaching@gallup.com.

Murray Guest  55:11

Fantastic. And I’ll make sure there’s links to the Gallup website and to that email, but also the Facebook group for anyone that’s interested in Strengths, if they’re not already a member, because it is such a healthy, generous community as well. So I’m gonna make a shout out to that community as well. Jim, I just want to take a moment to also celebrate, acknowledge the work that you do do. That constant that you have been for all those seasons of Call to Coach and everything else that you do. It’s really the podcast. And also for that community I just mentioned, where you are the backbone. And the head, often around just steering that supporting that creating a space for people to share, to learn to grow to support, and this passion you have to support others, and to lift them up. And to do that, and the strength space movement wouldn’t be where it’s at without that consistent energy and focus you give it and as someone that has been the receiver of that, I can’t thank you enough. Have a beer with you next time in Omaha whenever that is, but on on behalf of the community I want to thank you so much for all that you do.

Jim Collison  56:29

Muz those are very, very kind words. And I appreciate that. And thanks just for the just for being a solid partner out there with us. I couldn’t do this if I was shouting from the mountaintop, and there weren’t people doing things like creating their own podcast. It couldn’t be just me. And so thank you for the work that you do to continue to help get the word out and to coach people in the work that you do and workshops and in the coaching. So thank you.

Murray Guest  57:00

Wonderful, Jim, and I’ve loved our conversation on this podcast. It’s been fantastic, so much gold in this conversation today. Really appreciate it. And certainly, if anyone’s listening, you got something out of this conversation, which I’m sure you did. Please make sure you share it online, tag Jim and myself and also use the hashtag inspired energy. And if you have any questions, as Jim said, make sure you flick those through to coaching@gallup.com. And he will get back to you or someone from the Gallup team will as well. Jim all the best for the remainder of a productive healthy, happy 2020. And I look forward to speaking to you again soon.

Jim Collison  57:38

Yeah you as well. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Murray Guest  57:41

Thank you.

​

Episode 69 – Lockdown Leadership | Self-Care

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Self-care.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:00

Welcome everybody to conversation five in what the best leaders are doing during lockdown. Here I am, again with Becky Hammond. And we are talking about taking care of self and self care. Such an important thing right now, and has been obviously through COVID-19. And right now in this period of transition, and it’s honestly something which I think, unfortunately we do sometimes as people and as leaders we can let slip. But right off the bat, I’m going to say self care isn’t selfish, looking after yourself is so important. And as we’re going to explore in this conversation, how the best leaders are making sure they’re investing in themselves, so they can show up for themselves the best, for the people they lead, and for everyone else around them. Becky, how are you? And what do you think about this whole topic of self care?

Becky Hammond  00:54

Hmm, you know, this is one that I’m particularly excited about, I think, you know, one of the leaders that I spoke with, have you had the chance to listen to the strength in crisis series that we did on the podcast anyway, one of the healthcare leaders said, I have never worked so hard to achieve so little. Now there is a lot like some people, you know, went home and felt like they had a lot of time, and some industries, and some organizations and some leaders felt like, oh, my goodness, I didn’t think that life could get any busier or any more stressful. And so, you know, it has been hard for leaders in especially in those industries to say, Yeah, I should prioritize myself, right? Because just like you said, you know, you’re a little catchy catchphrase, like, taking care of yourself isn’t selfish. And it’s not. And not only is it not selfish, but it is the best thing that you can do for your leadership and for your team members as well. I had a, there was a leader who that I was talking to who blocked out time when she hit a wall. She like woke up one morning, she had hit a wall. And she just said, What am I going to do about this, and when she reflected on her life, she’s like I have been working for 24 days straight. And there’s no way that I’m, that this is good for me or for my team. And so she looked at her calendar and just said the next time I could do this, is like a Tuesday or something, next time I could do that is Friday morning, blocked out for a couple hours. She exercised that morning, she went on a walk with her kids. And she just, she took care of her body and her mind. And she was able to show up that day. And the following week, even with just such a different energy to her work, even though the stress stayed the same. The busyness maintained the same but because she has chosen to pause and take care of herself, her entire perspective and outlook changed.

Murray Guest  03:00

You remind me of helmet time.

Becky Hammond  03:03

What? Oh, helmet time, like how much time like riding a bike? The goal?

Murray Guest  03:08

Yeah, yes, yes, a bicycle. Okay. So a leader I was talking to about a week ago, in a session he was talking about his feeling of stress of anxiousness of overwhelm, very aligned with unfortunately, your leader of working so hard, but feeling like not getting stuff done right now, not achieving. And we’re doing a call on zoom. And in the background is his bike, his bicycle. And I said to him, when was the last time you rode your bike? He goes, I used to ride twice a week, but I hadn’t written now for a month. And he said, I love riding my bike, but I just don’t have time right now. And I said, I said, What is it like when you ride your bike? And he said, I feel free. I feel like I’m a child again. And I totally align. You know, I love my riding my bike. And, and I said, so what’s happened? He said, I just haven’t been making time for it. But you know what he said, I miss my helmet time. And it’s that that getting out and doing that thing, that exercise, his self care. Yes, it’s physical, but also the emotional connection and the mental benefits of riding the bike. And so he calls it his helmet time. And I love that. And I’ve heard from him since that he’s been back out for some helmet time a couple of times a week and feeling so much better. Yeah, so much. Just short, short bicycle rides. But again, it’s the neural connection of when he’s on the bike, he’s taken to a different place and feels better.

Becky Hammond  04:50

So yeah, and it’s not always about necessarily the physicality of it, though that is a part of it, taking care of your body, your physical body, it’s also creating a mental space. And so on a bicycle, you could probably do both, right, you’re creating this, there’s a physicality to it. But there’s also this mental space of like, no one’s calling me, you know, no-one’s talking to me, I’m able to either check out if that’s what you need to do or use that time to process through things without interruptions, without judgment from yourself or others of what you’re doing as you’re just sitting there and thinking. It also looks like maybe scheduling a vacation or a staycation or making sure that you’re blocking time off where you are unplugged for a while. There was a leader that I was working with who said, you know, she was too busy to take a vacation, but she was going to do it anyway. Because she realized that not only was it good for her, but she wanted her team to feel through the freedom to say it is okay to unplug. And that, you know, she just came back and she like, I feel so much better. Like I feel like, Yes, she’s like, yes, I do want to stay on vacation, I wanted to just stay here. But now that I am back, I feel refreshed. I feel a new sense of energy to be able to put into this role. And so not only was it for herself, but then also for her team to say like, Look, if somebody at this level can take a vacation without checking their email, and without getting on calls, then, you know, I can, I can do that too. And you will find as a leader that your team comes back, refreshed, and maybe they even come back with new ideas. Because time away helps you to have perspective.

Murray Guest  06:47

Yeah, and I think what you’re exploring there, Becky, something that’s so important, and that’s those leadership symbols and walking the talk, which demonstrate the the importance of something, not just by saying it, of course, by doing it. When we talk about self care, like, you know, taking a break, what else do you think leaders could be doing to demonstrate that to their team?

Becky Hammond  07:12

You know, I think part of it has to do with, okay, so we talked about physicality, we talked about taking a break. So there’s like a physical aspect and mental aspect. There’s also kind of a self reflection aspect of, if you’re really taking care of yourself, you are leaving time in your day, or your thought processes, to come to a deep awareness of how you show up, how that matters, what your strengths are, what energy you have when you walk into a room, you know, we talked about our leaders who give a damn program like, what if you could just pause for a second before you bust into a room? I mean, maybe not a bust, no, maybe not a bust-in kind of type, but before you walk into a room like what energy are you bringing in there? Are you bringing a nervous energy? Are you bringing your stress energy? Or are you bringing something that when people walk in, they’re like, oh, leaders here, that’s awesome. Right? Like, oh, there’s a peace that you bring just by being here, like, Oh, my gosh, I’m so glad to see you. Because, you know, as we talked about in our last episode, like you bring a sense of clarity, I can ask you these questions, I know we have trust together. So just understanding like, it’s all part of self care, I think this idea of self awareness, being a part of our self care, and that it benefits, you know, not only you and your psyche, but your team, as you really are aware of how you’re showing up and what that impact is that you’re having on them.

Murray Guest  08:36

Yeah, and all those little symbols, again, create a culture, they encourage the team behavior, they also help you demonstrate how they can be at their best. I can share unfortunately, an example that’s not as good. And a leader I was talking to in the last month, and he was talking about his business. And I said, how’s the team going? He said, Oh I make sure the team have lunch every day. I encourage them to have lunch every day. And they have lunch in an area not far from my office. I’ve got a double door into my office and I can see them. And I said so what do you do when they come in to have lunch? And he said, I don’t have time for lunch. I just quickly eat my food in front of the computer. And I said, So how do you think that looks? I’ve got some inauthenticity, some misalignment there. And he goes, Oh I never thought about that. I said, So the team connects over lunch, you know, you bond as people over food. And even if you take out 15 minutes, if you do have some busyness, you’re gonna send a different message. He goes, Oh I have never thought about that.

Becky Hammond  09:49

Yeah. Oh, man. That’s such a good example, and how easy it is for you know, us as leaders to be like, well, I’m busy, but they should do this but I’m not, you know, that creates an environment that you probably aren’t contending as leader. Talk a little bit about, you talk a little bit about seeing articles on LinkedIn and things like that about the third space. What does that mean? What is it? You’re talking about investing in the third space? What does that mean? And what does it have to do with our self care and our well being?

Murray Guest  10:19

I have loved this conversation about the third space, I’ve been sharing with a range of people in my workshops, and yeah, as you said, on LinkedIn, I put a post on there, which has had a lot of traction, which is fantastic. It’s something which I find is a real simple way for us to think about where we’re investing our time and you know, that self care to be at our best. So, you know, if you think about home is your first space. And then work is your second space. And generally, for people, let’s just say, pre COVID-19, they were very separate. I’m at home, I go to work. And they’re separate. And in between those is a commute in some description, maybe drive, public transport, walk, ride a bike. And then our third space is this thing that we do in our life that is separate from home and work, which helps us be at our best, something we love doing, invest in your self care, we’re passionate about. And it could be riding a bike, it might be going to the gym, it could be doing yoga, and maybe reading a book, could be catching up with friends and shopping, might be going to the cinema, to the movies. You know, I could go on and on and on. Yeah, all the possibilities. What has happened, unfortunately, in the past few months is space one and space two come together as one thing. Working at home, and my space one, space two is together, I’m at home. And I’ve also not able to invest in my third space, because things aren’t happening, things are closed down, or I’ve got restrictions. That has led to, unfortunately, stress and impacts on well being, mental health. So we need to pause and reinvest in that third space, create that third space. And honestly, I think it’s something so again, simple but can have a real reset and how we’re looking after ourselves. So for example, my wife, Tammy, she’s been doing yoga at home. The local yoga studio has been doing classes online. And that’s been really good for her. People I know that have got a stationary bike at home, and they might ride the bike at lunchtime at home. People that had been catching up with friends, and then they couldn’t, have started to catch up with friends whilst maintaining social distancing. But they’re going for a walk together separately, but starting to connect, because that third space is so important because we know our world is just work and home all blended together. We haven’t got that distinction to help us be at our best.

Becky Hammond  13:13

Yeah, it seems like no matter what, it’s the first thing to go right. Like when life gets stressful, let alone the fact that your worlds have collided, that it’s the first thing to go. I remember, I’ve actually just recently got back to it. But I’ve been doing ceramics. So I like to throw things, make things out of clay. And I had done this for 13 years. And then I started working a job in San Diego where it was many, many hours. And I got achiever, like overdrive. And I didn’t do that anymore, you know, and so this is like way before the world that we’re living in right now. And yet, it’s like it’s that, that I would always when I was doing it regularly, I would every Wednesday I would say, Oh I don’t want to go. And then David would say, Yeah, but you always feel better when you do. And then I would say, Fine, I’ll go. And then when I came back, it was like, Oh my gosh, it was amazing. It’s awesome. And I was like a different person. I was like a better person to be around. And that’s, you know, that’s what you offer your team when you set aside time for the third space even when you don’t want to, and it doesn’t have to be physical. It can be like you said reading a book, or you know, as it was for me like putting my hands in mutton you know, it’s just a, there’s a different psyche that’s created when you decide to invest in a difference space outside your family.

Murray Guest  14:35

In the Leaders Who Give a Damn program, in the module of well being, I remember us talking about joy. And one of the things that bring you joy and making the time to reflect what are those things that bring you joy and revisiting those and bring those back into your life. And, ceramics, for you, I’m just hearing that right now. It lights you up, gives you joy. And you’re a better person to be around.

Becky Hammond  15:02

Yep, that is true, you can ask my husband.

Murray Guest  15:06

So similar, similar to another leader that I’ve been working with, he is a surfer, he loves to surf and he’s one of those water people, he loves being in the water. And if he doesn’t get that surf, he can start to feel a bit grumpy and is a bit tough to be around. And he knows that about what he does. And what he has been doing is making sure he gets that surf in. And he’s even been, I would say, quite clear, again, linking back to our conversation on clarity, clear on his boundaries, he’ll look at when the surf is up, as they say, and he’ll make sure that he’s able to go for that surf, but then he’ll work longer hours when he needs to. And he’s actually, he’s had a meeting come through from a peer that said, Can we meet at this time? And he said, Oh no I’m unavailable at that time. I’m going for a surf. And they said, what!? And he said, No, we can chat at six o’clock tonight if it’s that important, otherwise, tomorrow, but I need to get my surf in today. Again, setting some boundaries and making sure he’s looking after himself. And I know that might be hard for some people to do in the type of work that they do. So more think about, well, what is your third space? And what does your self care look like? And make sure you’re creating those boundaries. And you’re doing that for yourself as well.

Becky Hammond  16:24

Yeah. Yeah. And so then what’s the impact? You know, you and I’ve kind of just both been dancing around it. But what are we like, what’s the impact on your team if you decide to take care of yourself? Why do we say that self care isn’t selfish?

Murray Guest  16:42

Well, do you either make time for your health now or make time to be sick later on? And that’s not from me, that’s from Dr. Mark Hyman, he says that, and I totally agree with that. And it’s about taking that time out for you now. Because down the track, there’ll be things which will, will show up, unfortunately, in your own health and well being. And I also think that you are lucky, you said and articulated so well, you’re a better person to be around when you have invested in that self care. You’re a better communicator, you’re leading better, you’re showing up. Excuse me, I’m going to cough. Better connection with your team for sure.

Becky Hammond  17:28

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no one wants the burnt out version of you. I think in the end, that’s what it comes down to, you’re gonna show up better for your team and for your family, both, both of those first two worlds, if you invest in your third. You know, the burnt out version, I’ve seen leaders who are the burnt out version, and they are not kind people to be around. Nor do they seem to treat their family well, either. You know, there was a guy that was the leader of one of the managers that I was managing. And there was a story that he was kind of proud of that on the day that his daughter was born, within 30 minutes of her birth, he was taking a call that he just had to take. And that just, I mean, that just ruffled the feathers of relator guy, like you? And that wasn’t being an inspiring leadership example that his team was after at all, and know that burnt out version creates somebody who’s quicker to get angry, they’re more impatient. And that impatience comes at home, it comes with your team. And that ends up being the result when you don’t take care of yourself, you don’t invest in that, in that third space.

Murray Guest  18:49

100%. Yeah, and there’s an ad for paracetamol that we have in Australia, and I can’t remember which company it is. It doesn’t matter, I think in this point, but their slogan is soldier on. Make sure you can soldier on. And it’s all about, you know, pressing on. And yes, there’s some things that we need to get done each day. And yes, we need to make sure we were there for our family, and yet work hard and for our teams that we lead. But in essence, we’re also going to look after ourselves along the way. We’re going to pause. We’ve got to make sure we’re filling that cup and investing in our third space. So Becky, I would ask if the leaders listening to our conversation today, are thinking, Okay, I’m hearing all this and I’m starting to think about what I can do to invest in my self care. What’s the action, do you think, that would help them move this forward?

Becky Hammond  19:47

Yeah, there’s two things that really come to my mind. One is very tangible, which is a scheduled time. So you create calendar events all day. Right, you create calendar events with your, your team members, maybe you are starting to create clarity in your team and you have a morning huddle, you create time in your calendar, that’s one of the things we talk about in tackling busyness in Leaders Who Give a Damn is, it feels like you don’t have control of your calendar. And there are some things that are just outside your control. But there are little things that you can do to make a difference. And this one will make a huge difference, scheduling time in your calendar for self health, for the opportunity to invest in that third space. And just start with you know, if I was going to be very, very practical as I just start with one time per week, and maybe that’s 10 minutes before you usually wake up in the morning. Or maybe it’s you know, as the leader that you worked with said like scheduling, blocking out the time when the surf is high. Maybe it’s scheduling a lunch break in, because you’ve been working from home, and you realize, well, I could go out and hang out with my kids for 15 minutes, whatever feels life giving, but don’t make it – I caution again, especially if you’re a leader that’s listening to this and you’re like interested in self growth, you’re probably like, okay, yeah, I could do this, right – like, if there’s an inclination to say, I’m going to do it all or I’m going to do not at all. And just start small and said, You don’t have to do it all, just start small. That just one small change in your calendar scheduling time would be the first thing that I would recommend. And the second part has a little bit more to do with mindset, giving yourself a mental break. Letting yourself know like this self care to teach yourself and to talk to yourself to say, you can only control what you can control. And everything else you have to let go. And trust that it will happen that you’ve been doing all these other things like giving grace and kindness, you’ve been talking to your team, have been providing clarity, you’ve been flexible and individualizing, you are doing everything, you are building yourself up as the great manager. Those are the things you can control. If you can’t control it, you have to let go. And you will give yourself a mental break, you will invest in your well being by just saying you know what, I can’t control that. And so I’m going to, you know, not worry about it. Easier said than done. But it gives yourself a mental break when when you enable yourself to do that.

Murray Guest  22:29

I totally agree. And I think that’s a beautiful link back to our last conversation on clarity. Bring that clarity in about, you know, what can I focus on? What can I not? And taking the time to journal that, write that down, working through and process that. I would love to just add a third little suggestion for the leaders. Yes, this is about self care, but also the care for your team and asking your team, how are they investing their own self care?

Becky Hammond  22:54

Yeah, I love that.

Murray Guest  22:57

We talked in the last conversation about, obviously, clarity and how you bring that to the table with your team. But also, my suggestion is how can you bring this conversation to the table as well? And just asking them, how are you investing in yourself this weekend or in this week, so that they are also making sure that they’re being at their best, and explore the concept of their third space, and what that looks like for them. Again, knowing your people is very important as leaders, and this is a way to show that you really give a damn about them, and you’re making sure they’re looking after themselves.

Becky Hammond  23:29

Yeah, and what better way, no better way really, than to be doing it yourself. Because that gives you a lot of credibility as you go into that conversation with them.

Murray Guest  23:38

100% Becky, this has been, again, a great chat and a great series as we’ve talked about these leaders in lockdown, and the leaders in lockdown that are making the best out of this difficult and challenging time, and how they have been demonstrating some of these themes that you and I have talked about over these five conversations. We’ve talked about obviously going all the way back to grace and kindness and how important that is and leading with grace and kindness, we talk about communication, individualization, which obviously is so important in knowing the individual needs and requirements of your team members. Last week, we talked about clarity. And here we’ve just wrapped up talking about self care and how important it is to look after yourself. So many great stories of what leaders are doing so well right now. And a couple of examples of the not so good ones. But also, you know, I’m learning from you all the time, these conversations Becky about your experiences as well. So thank you for all that you bring to these conversations.

Becky Hammond  24:52

Thank you. I feel like that the thanks goes to the leaders because leaders are the ones, you guys are the ones that are doing the hard work. You know, if it ever comes off that Murray and I are saying that this is an easy thing, you just put these five themes into place, and you should be, you know, hunky dory. Easy, breezy. That’s not what we’re talking about, you know, you guys know, as leaders that you’re, you’re doing the hard work, and by investing in growth of yourself and of your team, and learning from other leaders that are doing it well, that are saying, you know what this situation sucks. But we will, as leaders, have an opportunity and a privilege and honor to be able to impact how people feel about this season. And, and can provide real stability, trust, hope, compassion, the things that your followers need, and that your team members need. You are the ones that have that potential.

Murray Guest  25:52

And I just like to also say, Becky, after a conversation I had this week, and one of my sessions with some leaders, I finished it saying, I don’t want you to finish this session thinking this means a lot more work. And I certainly don’t want any leader thinking, out of these conversations thinking Becky and Murray are saying, oh, wow, I’ve got all these extra things to do, right now. I know, that’s not our intent. Our intent is actually, honestly, for a lot of us is doing less. And also changing a little bit, the way you do some things. So that actually gives you more value, and really helps demonstrate how much you care about your people through your words and actions. And it might feel like extra time right now for some of these conversations. But you’ll see those benefits we’ve been exploring in these conversations.

Becky Hammond  26:43

Yep, you can really be a leader who gives a damn.

Murray Guest  26:45

So as Becky just said, Leaders Who Give a Damn is a fantastic, and I say that because I think it was so great, all the conversations we had in Leaders Who Give a Damn, we explored seven key elements of what that looks like in that program, we talked about self awareness, wellbeing, know your people, managing perceptions, prioritizing conversations, and valuing relationships and tackling busyness. And obviously, in today’s conversation of self care, and links well to wellbeing and to self awareness. And as I remember I was talking about in that program, you can’t be the leader you want to be if you don’t look after yourself. You need to make sure you put the fuel in your tank. And certainly there’s lots of links in today’s conversation in those modules. If you want to know more, check out Leaders Who Give a Damn. Obviously, there’s the conversations I just mentioned and each one of those modules of those conversations, we support you with resources and worksheets to help you apply the key things we talk about. So check out the show notes to have a look at Leaders Who Give a Damn.

Becky Hammond  27:59

Sounds awesome. We’d love to have you a part of our community. And it’s been really fun to have these conversations and hopefully provide some insights that our leaders, that we have the honor to work with, have been showing us.

Murray Guest  28:12

100%. So wishing everyone health, happiness, safety and self care beyond this conversation and look forward to talking to you again soon, Becky, Thanks again so much.

Becky Hammond  28:24

All right. It’s been a pleasure. Bye now. Bye.

Episode 68 – Lockdown Leadership | Clarity

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Selfcare.

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Transcript

Becky Hammond  00:01

Well, good morning, Murray Guest. I was gonna say just your first name, but I decided to say both. So good morning. I’m so excited that we’re having this conversation today.

Murray Guest  00:11

Well, good afternoon to you. And you know, we are talking about clarity in this conversation and you’re bringing some clarity right into it from the start around, you know, names and time of the day. How have you been?

Becky Hammond  00:30

Doing good, you know, I mean, it is, it’s a crazy time still, like, I didn’t think that if we were in July, we would still be saying that. And, and we are, we’re saying that there is still a lot of uncertainty. And I know even in my personal life, we’ve had just kind of some close calls and just some things where we felt like, wow, one moment could change a lot of things. And I think that kind of all speaks into what we’re talking about today. And why this topic, this theme of clarity has come up, as one of the key elements of leaders who are doing it well, are really doing well, in this season of lockdown, of uncertainty. You know, I mean, a lot of organizations are not in their same, you know, we’re all staying at home, and we’re all working from home. But there’s been a lot of changes. And it continues to be uncertain in this time. And so this, this theme of clarity has been one that the leaders who are doing it well are just, they are starting to have a clear voice and a clear perspective. And they are communicating that to their team. So, Murray, this is a topic that is near and dear to your heart, and that you have seen leaders all around you do well, you’ve also been able to encourage others that aren’t seeing the importance of it to say, okay, well what happens if you practice clarity, practice, practice communicating more clearly, and painting pictures of expectations. So let’s dive into this topic a little bit more. Why don’t you, first if you would, just define clarity for us? What do you mean when you say that the best leaders are those who can create clarity for their team?

Murray Guest  02:19

So I totally agree with everything you just said then, Becky, around this time right now in July 2020. And what it’s like and, you know, things changing so rapidly. And who would have thought that after what we’ve been through the last few months, we’d be still in this situation right now. Before I share my perspectives, I just hope everyone that’s listening to us is happy, healthy and well, because it is something on the minds of every conversation I’m having with people and of leaders. And I think links back to some of our early conversations about our care for our team as well. I think about, you know when you see on Instagram those beautiful pictures of nature, of this still water and you see the pebbles underneath the water, or you might see the reflection or you see these beautiful shots where it shows underneath the water and then above the water. And it’s just, you look at that and you feel calm, you feel peace. And you think wow, I just would love to be there. I’d love to swim in there, I’d love to just, you know, experience that. It’s not the photos on Instagram of a murky dam, where you go, Hey, I can’t wait to put my foot in that one. And I follow nature, which is just a very simple, simple account on Instagram but shares those type of photos all the time. And honestly, I look at those and I think that’s just beautiful. And it brings this calmness to my sense of being when I look at those and I love it. The murkiness, the lack of clarity, imagine going for a walk if we were walking in the in the forest, and it’s a hot day, we’re with our children. And there’s a lake and we say, let’s go for a swim and we walk up to the lake and it’s crystal clear. We go Okay, we can see the hazards. We can see maybe there’s a log that’s washed down. We can see how deep it is, if there’s any weeds or anything like that. And we say yeah, let’s go for a swim. If it’s all murky, kids, let’s just back up and you know, play on the sand and let’s lie on the pebbles. We won’t go in the water. So clarity in nature gives us this calm. The beauty. We understand what’s in front of us.

Becky Hammond  04:39

Security in some ways, right?

Murray Guest  04:41

Yeah. A sense of knowing, you know, what’s ahead. Yeah. And as leaders, we need to provide that clarity. We need to lead clarity and those clearing conversations. And this time, right now, as we’re talking about lessons in leadership in lockdown. Unfortunately, we’ve just got all these bits that are adding to the murkiness that we need to bring to the surface and bring that clarity.

Becky Hammond  05:11

Kind of filter out, filter out the things that are creating the murkiness, that are creating the lack of clarity.

Murray Guest  05:17

Yeah, 100%. And we were talking before this conversation about assumptions and about just going through in our leadership roles or in our life about, we’re just assuming this or just assuming that or maybe people understand that, or, you know, I’ve told them once, they get it. But having those conversations, when we bring clarity to the conversation, just think for a moment about how that feels. And not just the calmness, but it reduces the anxiety, reduces the stress, it gives us clear direction moving forward, aligns with my what’s my purpose, what are my  priorities? And also, where can I provide value right now? And people need that. Because right now we’ve got all these other bits around us that we don’t know what’s happening. There’s change from, you know, organizations, from policies, from communities, to governments, and all that’s happening. So I need clarity, I need clarity right now. So I can feel at my best, and I can, I can deliver on what I need to do.

Becky Hammond  06:24

Yeah, what a powerful position if, as a leader, you could actually impact your team’s psyche, in a really uncertain time, by just creating clarity even in just in one space, right? Like, we’re still gonna have lack of clarity or those murky waters in some of our other areas. But what if in one space, as a leader, you can create a sense of ahh for them in one very important part of their life where they actually spend, you know, most of their time, if you’re working full time.

Murray Guest  06:56

Yeah. And I, I think about some of the work I’ve done over the years in partnering with organizations that work in high risk areas. So for example, power generation, where, you know, I want to talk about power, talk about electricity. And what I’ve heard and what I’ve found out and talking to the leaders in those emergency situations where we’ve got to be really switched on. What happens is people talk more, they communicate more frequently, they reduce the assumptions, the murkiness more, they’re communicating frequently. And clearly. And what happens is productivity, safety, performance improves in those situations, when things are at their most dangerous, their normal day to day work. Because they’re bringing that clarity in day to day, and this has been repeated many, many times. The challenge for them is how do we take that mindset and that driving and leading of clarity, into our normal business as usual.

Becky Hammond  08:01

Right, when there’s not a sense of urgency or emergency at which maybe even happened at the beginning of kind of lockdown time, right? Like, people were like having more regular conversations and things like that, because it felt like there was a lot of adrenaline up. But then what happens once the adrenaline wears off, and now you are kind of still in an uncertain environment. But you’re back to your day to day. And as leader, you know, where can we find that oomph and that drive to create clarity? So what have you seen, what what stories can you tell us about, you know, the leaders that you’ve seen that really have done this well, or, you know, the impact that it has had, either way, when they’ve done it well, or when they haven’t done it well?

Murray Guest  08:46

So over the past few months, I’ve been talking to lots of leaders. And thankfully, there’s some really good examples where the leaders have done this really well. And I think it’s not just about the team that you lead. But it could be those people you work with side by side, your peers, but also leading clarity upwards sometimes as well. Quick example around a leader that I know, he needed to really get clear with his team about what are the priorities right now? And you might think, is that such a big thing? Well, what was happening with this team, and with a lot of teams right now, is people are working from home, some are working back in the office. There’s a transition going on right now, like some in different areas right now. And the workload isn’t just the same in some areas, it’s increasing because they’ve got projects and they’ve got business as usual type tasks to do as well. And people are starting to feel overwhelmed, they’re starting to feel like, Well, how do I deliver this? How do I still actually maybe do a bit of home schooling, pick my kids up, in the office some days and for the most I’m at home, and it was the team going to that leader and saying, hang on, I actually don’t know what’s the biggest priority right now. And then the conversation generated and evolved into, you know what, that chunk of work, that project, let’s leave that for a few months. And they are like, Really? I didn’t even know we could do that. That was that, let’s leave that but this right here, this other project we need to deliver on, that needs to be done right now, you know, and the tasks for that need to be done right now. But leave this other bit and leave this other bit. And I think what the best leaders are doing is actually just bringing the unknown to the surface, they’re actually making it very overt. They’re having that conversation more frequently to make sure, Hey, I’m not telling you how to do your job. But what I’m going to do is make sure you’re clear on what our priorities are.

Becky Hammond  10:55

Don’t you think that sometimes leaders think that this is kind of like a boring conversation to have? Like, they might say, well, I mean, like, you talked about assumptions, but even more than assumptions, just like well, I mean, it’s just not that interesting, right? Like, I was talking to a leader today who said that she had a meeting with her team. They’ve been hit very hard by the impact of COVID-19. And they had to do layoffs, and they’ve had to restructure. And she decided to have a meeting with everybody on her team. There’s like 40 people there. And there’s, I think, four or five different departments, and everybody was on a zoom, live. And she went through four or five different org charts. And she explained who was in what role and what they were going to be doing. And as she got off, she was just like, oh, my goodness, poke my eyes out. I’m sure everyone was so bored. You know, like, this is not a riveting conversation. But what she found was that people were text messaging or Facebook messaging or emailing her saying, that was the best meeting that we could have ever had in this moment. Thank you so much for going through that. And what they were saying was, thank you for providing clarity when we were feeling stressed. You know, I mean, when people are getting laid off, of course, you’re stressed, it’s unclear, then not only is it, man, am I keeping my job, but what are other people doing? And who do I go to now for, you know, to work on this project? Or who am I supposed to collaborate with on this? And what she did by having a boring – what she thought was a boring – meeting, she made a peace in her team that she probably couldn’t have achieved in any other way, except for going through a boring org chart.

Murray Guest  12:55

Yeah, and I think that’s a great example, where, through that process, I can imagine the flow of the conversation of, Hey, I just want to confirm this bit of information. And I just want to check on what’s that person’s role now, and now I understand it. So it’s again, you know, getting everyone on the same page, removing the assumptions. This is the org chart going forward right now. And this is how we are going to work together. I mean, that is showing, I think, the vehicle that the discussion, the org chart, helps create greater clarity, not just on the org chart, but I’m sure other things will have fallen out from that as well.

Becky Hammond  13:32

Yeah, yeah, definitely following up with a Q&A and people feel because the leader is being forthright, they feel more secure, that they can ask questions, because they have a construct for asking them now, it’s not just kind of out of left field, and you know that the leader has given the impression that she is open for their questions and for their concerns and cares about their everyday job.

Murray Guest  14:00

This leads me to a point, Becky, I think is really important for us to consider that sometimes we need to provide clarity about where we can’t provide clarity. And in that conversation this may have come up. I’m, of course, not too sure. But what this looks like sometimes is people thinking, Oh, we won’t talk about that because we don’t know. What happens is everyone else is creating their own story, their own meaning of what they think is going on right now. And as a leader, you might need to say, actually what I would encourage people to say is, right now, all we know is this, and that’s all we do know. And this other part, you know, about an org chart or a change or what’s happening from projects in the future, whatever it might be, we don’t know what’s happening there. And so therefore can’t provide ant more clarity but I can provide you clarity on this. Again, reduces that stress and the assumptions and the stories and potentially gossip as well.

Becky Hammond  15:00

Yeah, when you and I talked back a while ago, for my strengths in crisis, it feels like years ago, it might have only been a few months ago. You mentioned a leader who you had worked with who said that it was communicated this idea of creating clarity, even when it wasn’t going to be popular, even when the decisions that were being made, like weren’t going to be giving the fuzzy feeling. Can you share that story again, about what she said?

Murray Guest  15:38

Yeah, I’ve got a few stories. I think it was this one.

Becky Hammond  15:43

I’ll let you know if it sounds familiar.

Murray Guest  15:46

Well, one that this does remind me of many, many years ago, when I was working for an organization and redundancies were happening. And I remember talking to the CEO, and we were walking to one of those town hall meetings where all the staff were going to be there. And I remember I just happened to be walking next to the CEO. And I said – and I was quite, quite young and junior in that day – and I said something like, Oh, are you going to talk about redundancies? You know, people are really worried and maybe you are going to talk about something like that? And she paused, walking, again, great leadership, didn’t just keep walking, paused, looked at me and she said, Murray, of course I am. People want to know what’s going on. I’m going to talk about it and answer the questions as best I can right now.

Becky Hammond  16:34

Yeah, and that’s a scary thing to do sometimes.

Murray Guest  16:38

Yeah, yeah. And I’ve seen the opposite to that happen. You know, redundancies, obviously, are an emotional process for a lot of people, for lots of reasons. But when you can provide that clarity, again, it makes it easier, you know, it links back to us talking about leading with grace and kindness, and how important that is. The other story that I want to share also is about leading clarity upwards as well. And a leader I was talking to earlier this week, she shared some frustrations about, how I am being communicated from my leader one on one, I feel like I’m not getting the full picture. Whereas my peer, who is having one on ones and another peer having one on ones. We all feel a bit misaligned in our approach and how we’re leading our teams. And they said, Look, what do we what do we do about this? And so they actually went to their manager collectively and said, hang on, we don’t think this process is working. We feel like we’re missing some gaps. And that there’s a lack of alignment and clarity. Can we change this process and meet collectively, more often, to reduce that? And they were actually a little bit concerned because they didn’t know how this manager would respond. And he was very much like, Yeah, sure. Okay, let’s do this. How does it work? I’m glad you came to me. Again, some assumptions there, but so powerful, because I’ve spoken to them again since and they’ve said, it’s been so good. It’s just helped us get clear for not just us, but for when we are leading our teams as well.

Becky Hammond  18:17

Wow. I love that. I love that as a leader, you can seek the clarity. Like so when you start to see things are murky, you don’t just have to sit there and trudge through the murky water, you can also start to pursue ways of cleaning that up. And I mean, it could feel a little risky, like you said, like they said, I don’t know how he’s gonna take this. But in the end, you know, hopefully you’re approaching a leader who says, Well, if we can create more clarity, then in the end, it’s going to be better for all of us. 

Murray Guest  18:53

I was just going to say sometimes when we do jump in that clear water, we can stir it up a little bit. And it can get a little murky. And sometimes to create clarity, it’s going to get a little bit, I don’t know I’m going back to the metaphor here, a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit murky.

Becky Hammond  19:13

Your shoes are gonna get wet.

Murray Guest  19:14

Yeah, maybe maybe a little cold, you know, a little bit, a little bit uncomfortable. That’s what it’s about. But through that, you’re going to get the the clarity that you need for you, your team. And it’s just so needed right now, Becky.

Becky Hammond  19:29

Yeah. So what does it look like? So you’re talking about some really great stories, what are some of like the actions and behaviors? So as a leader, I’m listening right now, I’m like, okay, those are some good stories, but like, how do I actually go about doing that? Like, what are some actual behaviors that you are observing that are repeatable by other people who might be listening today?

Murray Guest  19:55

So I think about from this conversation with clarity, there’s a couple of angles that a leader can go down. One is their own self clarity, where they need that. And to take the time out to reflect and think what is causing me stress right now? Where am I lacking clarity? And write it down, write down the list and actually do the work, and say, Okay, now who do I need to talk to to increase that clarity for each one of these things, and then plan and actually have that conversation and explain your intent. I need to know clarity on this project, I need to know clarity around what’s happening. But actually, then make sure you have the conversations. So that reduces your own sense of stress and worry, it helps you get focused. And then the second thing is to actually have that conversation with your team. I invite all leaders to be thinking about, sorry, not even thinking, let’s take that back. At their next meeting, at their next meeting, to actually say to the team, where do you need more clarity right now? What do you need clarity on?

Becky Hammond  21:13

So inviting them to help you point out the murky parts?

Murray Guest  21:20

Yeah, point out the murky parts. And then make sure you listen, and then create space to have that conversation. And you may not have all the answers, and that’s okay, that’s 100% okay. But create the space to have the conversation and then generate some actions where you need to follow up and get the answers or give them the understanding that you don’t have the answer right now, to reduce that. For some teams, you might need to give them some time to reflect on that and then come back to that. And, and others that actually might generate, which I think happens quite a lot, is the clarity that team members are going to provide to each other. So it’s not all about you as the leader saying, hey, I need to tell you this, this and this, but it’s actually going to increase the understanding between team members as well. The third one, I think that is really important is actually talk to your team about how often you are talking in your meetings. Is the cycle of your meetings matching the rhythm of your work? 

Becky Hammond  22:29

What does that mean? 

Murray Guest  22:30

So we think about how our work flows in our teams, sometimes we are getting through work at a pace where we need to talk more frequently to match the information flow that’s coming in and the decisions we need to make. So for example, a team might be meeting once a month or something like that, yet they need to have updates more frequently and get that alignment throughout the month. So another great example of this in the recent months, a leader I know was meeting with his team once a week. And it was a pretty good meeting. But with working from home and all of the changes to the arrangements, they now have that that huddle meeting every morning on zoom, where they check in on what are our priorities, how are we going, what’s working, and the team are definitely saying we want this to continue when we go back into the office, because that’s happening every day and how valuable it is in bringing that clarity. I think we talked about this one in communication when we spoke about that, because it is such an important thing right now in having those conversations more frequently to match the needs and the rhythm of the work, of the team.

Becky Hammond  23:50

What if a leader is feeling like man, I just don’t have time. I don’t have time for like more meetings. So what have the best been doing that have helped them with that? Because it’s not that the best leaders aren’t busy, they are. Everyone’s busy, right?

Murray Guest  24:06

Well, I’d ask the question of leaders that say that what’s the most valuable thing that you should be doing with your time? And what’s the time cost to have the conversation now? And what’s that impact if you don’t have it now, and how you’re actually repeating a conversation model times down the track? A leader I was talking to yesterday, she said to me, she said, Murray, I actually went back to my team after our last session where we talked about clarity. So it’s awesome when leaders do the work. And she said, I was thinking about this conversation, and she said, I realized when I was delegating I would normally just tell them, Hey, can you do this bit of work? And leave it. And she said, I paused and I actually said I need it by this date. I need it to look like this and this is the priority. And she said she was really clear, she said it only took me an extra couple of minutes. And she said, I even felt a bit uncomfortable. But the person was like, thank you so much. And she said, previously, there would have been five or six, you know, backwards and forwards, trying to sort the work out. So to answer your question, Becky, I think, yeah, it’s the role of the leader to actually bring that clarity and have those conversations sooner. Because when you let that go, you know, when you let it fester, when you let the water go murky, you’ll pay the price.

Becky Hammond  25:33

Yeah, yeah. So it’s like incremental meetings are going to, in the end, be more efficient than one grand meeting or going down the wrong path, because it was fogged over right, to mix our metaphors a little bit. But so that nothing’s a surprise, right, especially in performance, in evaluation, right? Like, I mean, this is some of the basics of managing of like, well, if you don’t tell them what you’re expecting, then it’s not fair to hold them accountable to something that they didn’t know was the bar. And so in some ways you can’t afford not to, even though it feels like maybe it’s because you’re busy. I mean, it feels so stressful.

Murray Guest  26:21

I think it’s a great link to It’s The Manager, which is the Gallup book that Jim Harter and Jim Clifton released last year. But we talk about past work and future work. And past work was an annual review and future work is an ongoing conversation. That’s what we’re talking about here. It’s not, hey, how you going, once a year. It’s an ongoing conversation about what’s working and what’s not, and how can you acknowledge the good and improve in some areas. And again, that’s that mindset of the ongoing conversation as a leader to provide that clarity in other areas as well.

Becky Hammond  27:11

Yeah. So what’s the impact? And we’ve been talking about it kind of incrementally as we’ve gone along here. What have you found, the leaders who are creating the most clarity in their teams, what is happening to their team? Why should leaders be like, Oh, yeah, I want to create clarity.

Murray Guest  27:31

Honestly, they are happier. They are thriving, they are more productive. They feel less stress. And they, I think there’s less resentment. Because I think sometimes we can get some of those negative emotions of, I’m not hearing and I’m creating a story why I don’t know and why it’s murky. I wish my leader would tell me, but I’m too busy… and all that stuff. So all that’s going. So we’ve got more happiness, more engagement, more productivity, and less stress.

Becky Hammond  28:13

Right. As an institution, my experience says that we do not take into account the emotional stress and the impact that that has as much as we could or should. That it’s like, as if you’re carrying an extra weight on your back, you know, you’re like a, you’re a marathoner, and every day, you’re starting at zero, and you’re trying to get to the end. And that emotional stress of not having clarity is like carrying an extra weight. So that as you go, you’re not going to be as productive, you’re not going to be as happy doing it. Because you have an extra weight on your back, you’re going to be thinking about things that, you know, maybe you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t spend your time spinning your wheels about. And, but when you can, as a leader, release that from them, it’s like you’re taking the burden off their back, and they can feel lighter. And more, you know, like you said, happier and less distracted by the emotional weight of a stress of the lack of clarity.

Murray Guest  29:22

Yeah, I think to add to that, there’s less conscious attention. There’s less thinking. There’s less worry about, Oh I’m thinking about all these elements right now, I can actually focus on what I need to do right now. And I’m thinking about other analogies right now that are just so relevant to this conversation. You think about when you go on a holiday and you plan it. Where are we going? What does it look like? Where are we staying? And some people might prefer to just go, I’m heading out and that’s fine. Generally, though, I would say everyone’s got some level of plan as big or small as it is. And when we have that structure, and that clarity that’s going to help us get there. I think even with the people that like the smallest amount of planning, that enables them to know where I’ve got some clarity, and when I can, you know, go with the flow. It’s when we just don’t know at all, again, anxious, what am I doing? What does it look like? I have no idea. I was in America years ago, and you and I talking about driving in America, it’s hard enough driving on the other side of the car, let me tell you that.

Becky Hammond  30:38

I have had that experience. Yes.

Murray Guest  30:41

But then too, so there’s one bit of clarity, how do I drive from the other side of the car? And then to actually, you know, drive across is it the i45? Whatever it is.. 

Becky Hammond  30:52

You’ve been to Omaha too many times.

Murray Guest  30:57

I’m trying to think which it was, you know, so many big roads. But then to actually say, I drove from Los Angeles out to Las Vegas, and to get out of LA, and where am I going? I needed to know, where am I going? Which corner do I take? Which street sign? How do I do that? Because I remember that knot in my stomach with a, a car full of family and luggage and trying to get across five lanes of traffic. Right? Where am I going? How am I going to get there? So I can make the best, safest decisions to reduce that stress. It’s exactly what we’re talking about right now, as leaders we need to provide that.

Becky Hammond  31:43

Yeah, I love that. That’s a that’s a really tangible metaphor that we can kind of think about where are we going and how are we going to get there. And so we don’t have to be stressed when driving, we can just chat with our family instead of feeling stressed and overwhelmed. So what, if there are leaders listening right now that are like, okay, I’ll try it. Or, oh, I see how I could add a little bit more clarity, or let’s just see what the impact would be. What do you think that, what do you suggest that leaders would do right now that they can say, Okay, this is a tangible thing that I’m going to do next week, or this week with my team?

Murray Guest  32:23

Yeah, so I think the first thing would be to have that conversation with the team. To actually say, right, we’ve got our standard team meeting, but let’s bring to the topic at the start of the meeting this concept of clarity. And you can even use the traffic light analogy. So right now, where have we got green lights, so we can just go straight ahead. Where do you feel like you’ve got some amber lights where you don’t quite understand, you know, I need a bit of information. And, and then we have our red lights, where have I got red lights right now where I actually don’t understand, I need clarity. Really simple. And then just go through that with the team. Again, bringing out the clarity, bring it out. And some of that you’ll find will be, as I said earlier from the leader within the team, or maybe from customers, internal customers, internal suppliers, where then it’s going to drive some real tangible steps to say, Okay, I’m going to go find that out, I’m going to find out what we need to know.

Becky Hammond  33:36

And not be afraid to say I don’t know, let’s let’s think about that.

Murray Guest  33:40

Yeah, let’s loop back on that. Let’s come back in our next meeting. You don’t need to solve everything in that first discussion. Yeah, let’s go and find out and we’ll come back. That’s what I say people should do first. And I think, of course, team meetings are a great places that but again, like we said earlier, think about what it means for you one on one for your own, you know, manager that you report to or leader you report to and how you can get more clarity for yourself as well. The other thing I would say Becky is try it out at home.

Becky Hammond  34:17

Hmm that seems like a whole other ballgame.

Murray Guest  34:25

It’s something which I put my hand up as a husband and father where I’ve missed the clarity bus. Let’s just say. And haven’t provided that. And the stressful conversations I’ve had. So what I’d say is yeah, have the conversation at home if you have a partner and about where are we missing that right now? And, and how can we improve that clarity and, and just see how that can reduce maybe some stress and improve that well being.

Becky Hammond  35:00

Yeah, and kind of circling all back around the uncertainty. If we can create certainty in some of the most important areas of our lives, then even though we still live in the midst of uncertainty, we’re going to have less stress and experience more well being in some of those key areas in our lives. So cool. Love that. Love that last little tip. I think I’m, I think you were trying to coach me on that one. So I will take that one. I’ll take that one home. Conversations like we’ve been having today are ones that we also have in our Leaders Who Give a Damn program. And, you know, what’s the connection? What do you think the connection to the Leaders Who Give a Damn program and clarity really is?

Murray Guest  35:44

Ah, so definitely I would say knowing your people is one of our modules, we talk about leaders who give a damn around knowing their needs and knowing them. Definitely also prioritizing conversations. That’s a key part that we talk about in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program. And as you said earlier, Becky, not just waiting to have the conversation. But yeah, let’s talk about that reduction of, of anxiousness or murkiness and bring the clarity there. And even the last one, tackling busyness. You mentioned leaders are busy, have always got a lot on their plate. But I would say this is a key part in our leadership roles, and making this a priority. And it will then give you that reduction in your busyness because I think, I’d like to say a lot of leaders will find it will prevent some of that re-communication and re-work and going over things that’s happening right now.

Becky Hammond  36:49

Yeah, yes, I love it. That is totally true. And we, in the program, in addition to tips and stories, provide some clear action that leaders can take. The idea is that we want this to be useful to you, very consumable. And so if leadership is something that you care about, if you care about caring for your people, then definitely check out Leaders Who Give a Damn. We have one more podcast in this series about lockdown leadership. So next week, we are going to be talking about self care, well being and just understanding the importance of taking care of yourself and the impact that is having on some of the best leaders that we have the pleasure and honor to work with during this time. So thank you, Murray for sharing your insight on clarity and your stories. And it’s just been a pleasure to chat as always.

Murray Guest  37:46

Right back at you Becky, always a pleasure chatting with you. And thank you for sharing your insights and stories from across the pond.

Becky Hammond  37:55

Murky or clear?

Murray Guest  37:57

Clear. A clear pond. Yes. See you next week.

Becky Hammond  38:00

All right. See you now. Bye

Episode 67 – Lockdown Leadership | Individualization

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Selfcare.

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Transcript

Becky Hammond  00:00

Well, hello there Murray Guest, I’m so glad that we get to have another conversation today about what leaders are doing in lockdown and have done in lockdown, and the themes that seem to be shining out of the best leaders, the most resilient leaders that we know. So, welcome, as we talk about this.

Murray Guest  00:21

Thank you, Becky. And I know you and I’ve been talking quite a bit in between having these conversations about these themes. And whether people are based in my part of the world or your part of the world or anywhere, there’s some common themes that are certainly arising from our conversations, and also some of the articles that we’ve been reading and things we’ve been seeing as well. So it’s great to connect and talk about these themes. And I think this one is a really important one. I’m hearing this a lot as leaders are in lockdown, and even right now, as there’s so many different versions of transitioning back into the workplace, back into organizations. And this theme of individualization in leadership, so so important.

Becky Hammond  01:05

Yeah, you know, Gallup has said for a long time, that the best managers, the ones that kind of rise to the top are those who individualize. And I think for some leaders, this is a super frustrating statistic, because, you know, it does require, it requires energy. It requires thoughtfulness, it requires work. But what we’re seeing is that it is true, the best leaders out of this crisis are individualizing, they are asking the tough questions of themselves to say, what could I do to add to making this experience to be one that is smoother, to be one that is more flexible, that doesn’t jump to conclusions, or base their theories of what’s happening on assumptions, and they are truly, truly individualizing? I know that we have some stories from some of the best leaders that we are working with right now. I’m curious to know, kind of what’s one of those stories that rises to the top for you, as we talk about individualization and flexibility?

Murray Guest  02:09

Yeah, I certainly want to share a few of those stories, because I’ve been inspired by how leaders really bring that individualization to their daily leadership and the way they’re approaching it. And I think even just to pause for a moment and reflect on this idea of managing people to a job description, and treating them like parts of a factory process, you know, like the old style management. That has been highlighted through this experience that we’ve all been in, in the past, you know, three or four months, how that just does not work, that doesn’t engage people, they don’t feel connected. And honestly, we don’t treat them as humans and as whole people, if we manage people like that. Yeah, and as you’ve just highlighted, Gallup, has highlighted and identified the research that that individualization is so important. And one of the stories I want to share, Becky, is a leader that I’ve been working with, and they manage an operations area, and they needed to, you know, start to have people work from home. While some people still need to be coming to, basically a depot as you would call in America, or down here we call it a depo. That’s the same place.

Becky Hammond  03:32

Oh what a cultural adjustment. Thank you for being so sensitive to my language. I definitely would not have known what you meant if you said depo. So thank you.

Murray Guest  03:45

So I have been corrected by some of my American friends in the past on that one. So it’s one of those ones. But let’s talk about the depot. And how through this process, they needed some people to be based there and some working from home and how they make that work. And I think, to be honest, an ineffective leader and a leader that may be taking the easy route, would have just said, okay, you’re at home, you’re at work based on your job or your role. And just, you know, cut it down the middle. And to be honest, that is easier, and that is faster. But you know what, it doesn’t engage people. It doesn’t treat them like humans, it doesn’t consider what’s going on in their world and their life. And what this leader needed to do was actually, you know, pause and actually say, Who needs to be at home? Not ‘who do we need at work’, but who needs to be at home right now with what’s going on in the world? Yeah, so a totally different approach, which I know took time, took focus, took energy, and even felt difficult because it’s like hang on, we are putting people first. Hang on, but that is is important. And so what they did was they went through that process and didn’t take a long time, but also took some really valuable time and they identified that one of the leaders has a daughter who’s immune compromised. And through that process said, right, so it’s best for you to work at home for this next period of time. So that you’re okay, your family is okay. And she’s okay. And in having that come to surface as in, right, so how do we actually start to even use this as an opportunity for some improved succession planning and people stepping up. Which then there was a flow on effect, where we then had a leader that was working from home and someone else could step up into his role. And then someone else that normally works, let’s say, on the floor, stepping up again. So opportunity out of crisis. So everyone was looked after, everyone could do their role slightly differently. But then we had this great opportunity for development. And that, I think, is a really good example of that individualization and flexibility we want to talk about today.

Becky Hammond  06:11

Yeah, totally reminds me, or occurs to me in this moment that it takes a good deal of creativity. It’s not just the time but like thinking outside of the proverbial box, like, it says, Okay, this is the role that this person has always played. And this is what we need them to do, or what we need our organization to do. So how can we still get the same things done, and how people maybe take different rules or different priorities? Your story reminds me of the healthcare leader that I was working with, who had very similar outcomes of, okay, usually every person is in the office, there are zero remote workers when you are working in a healthcare setting, you know, pre March 2020. And but they said we want to we are committed to keeping these people employed. And so what can they do, they looked at, there was two particular people who had family members who were just higher risk. And they said, it’s not worth it for you to come into the office, we’re exposed to the general population every day. And so they were creative. They had to, you know, reorganize some things, readjust some things, people had to take on different responsibilities and roles, but I think the leader, the leader’s example of showing like, it’s okay, we can do this, you know, kind of gets back to the grace that we talked about in the first episode of this series, which is, you know what let’s all breathe a little bit, like breathe in and breathe out some grace and say, we can we can be flexible, we can individualize to the, to the people that have real human needs. You know, HBR, Harvard Business Review, wrote an article, I think, was back in 2011 2012, that just said, People aren’t assets. You know, we talked about like people saying, you know, people are assets. Well, people aren’t assets. They’re humans that need to be to be cared about and to be looked after as unique individuals, and not as every one of them being exactly the same as being a cog in the system.

Murray Guest  08:18

Yeah, and I think, additionally, Becky, I’m thinking about a conversation I had recently with a leader. And actually, I should say, it was a group of leaders where we were talking about our assumptions. And I know that as humans, we make assumptions all the time. As people we make assumptions, we make assumptions when we drive down the road that the car coming towards us is going to be on the other side of the road. And our brains need to make these, yeah, I was careful how I frame that one. And those assumptions we make in all areas of our lives, and we need to from a brain perspective, otherwise, we’d be focusing on absolutely everything. And we’d have that sense of overwhelm. And I think this is just raising to the awareness and in this conversation, of this group of leaders, about we can’t just assume what people are doing or can’t just assume that they can deliver exactly on their role if they’re working from home, or that they can work from home, or they can or they can do their job elsewhere. It’s about being present, having that grace and kindness that I loved our conversation on, and knowing our people to a depth that shows we care, but also, and this is where the difficulty is, I’m gonna call it, we want to know people but also have some boundaries there as well. So it does take some time and energy and focus, but it’s about this is true leadership.

Becky Hammond  09:47

Yeah, yeah. Reminds me of that concept of emotional templates that we talked about in Leaders Who Give a Damn program, of what you’re reminding me that like some of those things are things that we need, where we need to cut like, especially if they’re positive emotional templates that we can create those things, these assumptions, these filters of the situation that we’re about to go into. But when we find that we’re creating a negative emotional template or a negative assumption, that’s where we kind of as leaders, the best leaders, they check themselves. I was talking to a leader today who, man she’s so good at individualizing. She’s saying, you know, okay, I talked to this, I said, I said something to the effect of how is your team doing? And she’s like, Well, yesterday, I would have said great. And today, I’m not so sure. And so she had a conversation with one of her employees that she usually has great rapport, great trust with. And today, something happened, by the end of the call, it was clear that there was, there was something going on that there was either a lack of trust, or that there was just, maybe toes being stepped on, or I know, as a coach, I was helping her think through that, and what that might be. And I think one of her greatest strengths as a leader is that even in this sense of crisis, where you know, one of the true answers as to why things might be going wrong, is because people are tired, right? They are exhausted, they have been working more hours than they ever have. And she was doing a great job of just saying, Well, what is it for this person? You know, she and I, I coach from a Strengths Finder perspective. So we’re talking about the strength of that particular person, and what might be causing the riff or it might have caused this like, difference in interaction. And in the end, yeah, maybe there were some strengths related things about relator and significance and some different approaches that this leader could take. And so that’s individualizing. Right there. And then also just realizing, fatigue is setting in. And so what can we do to assume positive intent, go back to people with, go back to your your team with, like, hey, that didn’t go so well? What can we do to make that go better? Or, what do I not know that I should know, that will help me to tailor our conversations a little bit better.

Murray Guest  12:06

And I think that’s just another great example, Becky, of a leader that’s really being present, and, and really present to the needs of their team, and how they’re feeling. And I think the important part here for people to just reflect on also is, this doesn’t mean that’s taking away from your job, this is your job as a leader, this is a core element of being a leader. And I’ll even build on that and say, while it might feel like it’s taking away some of the conversation from where you’re up to with your projects, where you’re up to on some of your work, or where you’re up to and delivering on X, Y and Z. By having these conversations, it puts people in a space so they can deliver on their work and actually feel more engaged in their jobs. So I think we’ve got to just, and this has just highlighted so importantly, through this, this process, through this pandemic, how important we are connecting with our people on their individual needs. And a leader I was working with a couple of weeks ago, she told me she had to change the way she conducted her one on one conversations with her team. And it was a great awareness where she realized that it was all project based. It was all, where you’re at with your work. How are you delivering on the timelines? Have you been speaking to stakeholders. And the awareness she got was, Hang on, I’ve missed that leadership component. I’ve missed that conversation. I’ve missed the check in, where are you at? Like you’re leader, a great example. So she brought that in, and the shift on the productivity, the shift on how people were connected, and even communicating with each other shifted significantly, by her showing that care at the start of every one on one. Again, good practice and a simple change but made a big difference.

Becky Hammond  14:07

I love that it’s just the power of showing up first with, this is a human I’m talking to, kind of like, you’re not an asset, you’re not a to do list to me. It was challenging for people like me who are to do list kind of people, like okay, well we have these things that we need to take care of. Right. But it’s like you said, it’s not adding to your job, it IS your job to get to know them so that then you know if you’re going to be able to get through all that checklist of things. And the leader that I was working with who said, you know what, they started to do one word check ins at the beginning of every meeting. So you sometimes you feel like I don’t have time to like get everybody’s like how they’re feeling today and like you know, download everything about how their weekend was and all that. But if you’re having a team meeting, you know, it’s pretty powerful for people to go around the room. And say one word. You know what you don’t have to explain it, you don’t have to, it doesn’t have to be happy. It doesn’t have to be good, or it could be. But what happens if you go around the room and everyone says their one word like, this is how I’m coming to this meeting today, then you as a leader can individualize to the team or to that meeting, or like, if everyone in the room says, overwhelmed, exhausted, burnt out, then you know that you have a different situation than if most people are saying, you know, what, pretty good, or, you know, I’m feeling content today, or I’m relaxed. Those are very different experiences that you as a leader can then kind of tailor your to do list to after that.

Murray Guest  15:39

Such a simple process. But I can imagine the openness, the vulnerability, that creating the space for people to start to share how they’re feeling. And you know what I think a good leader in that situation might say, we need to pause the conversation about this project. And we need to maybe talk about what’s just come out of that review of how we’re all feeling to make sure we reconnect and how we are looking after ourselves and looking after each other in that moment. I do that often in my workshops, and around with teams and those themes of I’m feeling busy, I’m feeling overwhelmed and feeling tired. Because people, I feel, like are juggling, and we talked about this in one of our I think it was in the training we did a few weeks back. People feel like they’re juggling a lot more balls at the moment. So yeah, I think that check in from a leader is again, a simple step, but really impactful, shows you care as a leader. The bit I want to add, Becky, that’s so important is if you’re going to ask that question, be prepared for the answer, be prepared. Be prepared for what people say, because if they’re going to say, Hey, I’m feeling tired, or I’m feeling a bit lost, or I’m feeling overwhelmed or stressed, you know, we’ve given them the space to share that. Now let’s do something with that. Because if someone raises that, and we go, Okay, now, let’s move on to the projects.

Becky Hammond  17:07

Okay, that being said, check, check, check, right, like, yeah, what do you think? What What have you seen some of the best leaders do? Or what are what are some of your experiences of, you know, not derailing your entire project? You might not be able to, but really still addressing some of those, you know, what does it look like to be ready for the responses that people give you?

Murray Guest  17:32

Yeah, so I think that’s a really good point. And I think it’s that preparation. So being aware that if I’m going to ask that question that I’m already thinking about, okay, how do we support? How do we share so I know leaders that are thinking, Right, in my agenda that is a part of the process. And then what I’m going to make sure I can do is, I’ve got some suggestions that I might bring to the table, after more of a coaching approach. So for example, if people saying I’m a bit stressed, I’m a bit overwhelmed, or I’m feeling too busy right now. Okay, so the coaching approach would be so what are you going to do about that? Or what support do you need? Or what additional resources? Who could we delegate some work to? So ask some coaching questions, but as a leader, also having ready to bring to the table some ideas in case the team, you know, don’t quite get there. So but you know, in the start with that coaching approach, so I’d say that’s the first thing. The second thing is, you know, being very mindful on and listening with intent for anyone that needs follow up after that meeting. So one of those tailored one on one check ins. Yeah. So you might need to check in with someone and and catch up with them and say, Look, hey Becky, I noticed that right now, you’ve said you’ve got so much on your plate, you’re not too sure where to start. Let’s catch up after the meeting and talk through that so I can help you with some of the priorities on that work right now.

Becky Hammond  19:05

Yeah, it reminds me of a leader, one of the best leaders that I have worked with in the recent years who says that he, during this time of crisis, maybe it was probably about, I don’t know, six or seven weeks in where people are starting to feel that burnout. He said that he had just a conversation with one of his team members who came to him and just said, You know what, this is a lot. I don’t know, if I can manage this. I’m feeling completely overwhelmed. And as he just kind of stood, stood in that place, and had a listening ear, stood, I don’t know, he might have been sitting because he was probably on a zoom call at that point, but had a listening ear for her situation. You know, by the end, they were laughing together. And he was just kind of letting her know like, You’re not the only one that’s feeling like this and here’s some strategies that maybe we can try and, you know, he’s good at cracking jokes and such. And so they were laughing together, you know, high positivity, strength type leader. And, you know, at the end of the conversation, she just said, you know what I came in just feeling so down and I appreciate that I’m able to have a conversation with you that you’re willing to stop and talk to me. And you can always make me laugh, even if I feel like, you know, everything’s about to crash, crash and burn. So you know, that I feel like that’s an example of, of tailoring that one on one of, of knowing that it was not time to be like, I mean, it probably wasn’t even time to be like, Okay, well, let’s list out everything that you have going and see what we can eliminate it, you know, that might have been a helpful fix. But really, all she needed was that emotional connection, and that sense of being understood and being heard, and adding a little bit of levity back into her life at that time. So that leader just did a really good job of individualizing that experience so that he was helping her get what she needed in that moment.

Murray Guest  21:03

Yeah, I love that. And I love the practical examples with these great leaders that you work with Becky, because I think it helps us understand how this can look, in a day to day approach. I just want also flag I think what’s a really important distinction here. Leaders caring about their people is obviously important, something that we are so passionate about. But leaders also aren’t counselors. So it’s also striking that balance of showing you care, building that trust, but also being aware of when you may need to refer or suggest other support mechanisms your organization has to support that person as well. And just so I think that’s an important element that leaders need to be mindful of, and not stepping over and getting and also not being too emotionally invested. And show you care. Yeah. But at the same time, making sure that you keep some boundaries there as well. Yeah, I think the bit that I just add to that, explaining your intent is really important. If you are asking someone how they’re doing or you’re asking how things are, some people may be thinking, Oh, this is a bit personal, you’re diving in too quick. So it needs trust. But explaining your intent that the reason I’m doing that is because I do care about you, I want to make sure you’re okay. Some simple words to explain your intent go a long way.

Becky Hammond  22:28

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know, we’ve talked a little bit, kind of all weaving throughout these stories are some of the behaviors that we’ve seen of good leaders that individualize and are providing flexibility in this kind of lockdown time and after, we’ve talked a little bit about impact. What more would you say about the type of impact that being an individualizing leader, a flexible leader, really has on your team and your team culture and your end products?

Murray Guest  23:01

Well, I think the word we’ve said a few times is trust and 100% I think it builds trust, builds that greater connection between team members and the leader, also reduces stress, anxiety, and worry. I think it also builds employee engagement, it builds that connection to the team and that connection to the organization and the purpose. And you and I’ve talked about this in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program around, you know, the, I think it’s 70% of an employee’s engagement relates to their relationship with their manager. So if my manager shows, my leader shows, they care about me, then I’m engaged, and I’m going to show up. So there’s the impact there, isn’t just from human to human, but also from a business sense. So I think the other thing that also does is that creates a new way of working and a new team culture, that transition to this time right now where some businesses are working back in the office or back in their workplace. And then beyond that. Over the past few weeks, I’ve been running workshops with a range of clients. And I’ve been asking the question, Who wants things to go back to the way they were before this all started? I think you know the answer. Drumroll for the surprise. Yes. It’s been, I think around 200 people, and honestly, I’d be like, two people have said we want it to get back the way it was. Everyone has enjoyed or been inspired or appreciated or changed the way of working, been exposed to a different way and wants something out of that to continue, whether it’s the flexibility, whether it’s the start time, whether it’s working from home, whether it’s the type of work they do, it’s just so strong, so strong right now. And unfortunately, though, I was talking to a team recently, and they said that the message they got from a leader was when you go back into the work, it’s back to five days a week, exact same hours back to what we’re doing. And they’re all like, hang on, hang on, hang on. That’s not what we want. And there’s this conversation happening right now about how do we individualize? How do we take what’s worked for me and what’s going to work for the team going forward? Because otherwise, Becky, if we don’t do that, as leaders, there’s going to be massive, honestly, massive emotional mental impact and massive disengagement.

Becky Hammond  25:55

Yeah, yeah, that is a really striking, a striking story about, you know, an organization saying, you know, we’re just gonna go back to doing what we were doing. It’s not like, we’re asking you to do anything more than what you did before. Yet, people are starting to say, but look, I’m doing a great job. And look at all the less miles that are on my car, the less pollution that we’re putting in the air, the less number of hours I spent on the train, and you know, all the different elements, whatever kind of they’re pulling out as man, this was a real benefit to me, and I’m still doing a good job for you, aren’t I? You know, and yeah, it’s really fascinating.

Murray Guest  26:33

And I’m getting the chance to invest in my health and well being, whilst I’m not commuting into the workplace. Now, I’m not saying, and I don’t want to put my assumption out there for people to think that I’m saying everyone should work from home going forward. I’m not saying that. I know that’s not what you’re saying, either. I think what we’re very clear on is it’s the individual needs of the person and the team and the business and how they can all come together. Because there’s lots that has worked over these past few months. And I think from a habit point of view, if it takes 21 days to form a new habit, people have been forming new habits for over 90 days. And if we consider that, we consider that we’ve got people that have formed some new habits and new ways of working, and they’re getting locked in pretty solid. And, like you said, it’s working in the sense that they’re delivering on what the team needs as well.

Becky Hammond  27:31

Right, right. Since as you’re saying these things that I’m gonna take your Venn diagram approach, I feel like there’s a middle, right, there’s the me, there’s my team, there’s an organization, and where does that overlap? And, you know, as an individual team member as well, you know, you don’t just get to do whatever you want, right? There has to be some from the team and from the leader and from the organization. And I think for the first time we’re seeing that. That it can work when there can be a really great place of overlap of all those things, and still be focusing on the human and the individual and, and what people need. Yeah, really good.

Murray Guest  28:15

Yeah. I totally agree, Becky. And I think that’s a good way to, I think, wrap up this conversation and for leaders to actually take that pause, and maybe even get the piece of paper out or get out their device and think about those diagrams, those circles and how they do intersect. What do my individuals need, what do my team members need? What does our team need? What do I need? What does the organization need? And how do we map that going forward? Talk to your team. And really listen, and be prepared then to invest the time and shaping this amazing opportunity going forward. Because right now, there are so many different versions of work that is being developed and being implemented. And it’s about finding the one that works for you and for your team and for those individuals in your team.

Becky Hammond  29:11

Yeah. Now, I love that practical application of just kind of being able to see like, where do these things overlap? We’re not saying that, I think what I’m careful of is we’re not saying that every individual’s needs have to trump everything. I mean, that won’t work, right? It won’t work. Not everyone can get every thing that they feel like they need. Maybe they can, but most likely they can’t. And so where are those biggest sections of overlap? And how can we come to a solution that looks at the individual for their situation, the individual for their strengths. I think about individual ways to encourage and recognize each employee. I mean, this has been something that’s been a thing, you know, since the beginning of management, and it feels even more important in this time where people are feeling just more uncertain. And so as a manager, you know, one practical takeaway is just okay, think about who each of my team members are as an individual, and what can I do to encourage and recognize them for the work that they are doing during this time, and the value that they provide based on their individual needs and their individual strengths.

Murray Guest  30:24

And, of course, Becky, there’s a really great link here to Module Three in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program, which is knowing your people. And I know as you go through that module, there’s some resources there to help you invest in deepening that knowledge of your people, to connect with them on an individual level. So if you haven’t checked out that program, I would love you to check that out. Because I know that module links so strongly to what we’re talking about today.

Becky Hammond  30:51

Yep. And it leaves you with some real good, solid action planning guides and some practical next steps that you can take to individualize as a leader and even more when it comes to knowing who your people are, and being a leader that inspires them to follow. So yeah, definitely check that out if you haven’t, and we will be excited to continue this series about leadership in lockdown. Next week, whenever the next episode is in our fourth episode of this series, we will be talking about clarity. And clarity is something that Murray, you especially have been thinking about and are passionate about in this time, that you’ve been seeing the best leaders are those that create a sense of clarity, and there’s some interesting ways that they’re doing it and that you’re seeing that happen. So I’ll be excited to dive into that in the next episode.

Murray Guest  31:42

So Becky, if you expect to get a word in next time, you’re going to be severely disappointed. I am so passionate about clarity, and I am looking forward to talking about that with you. So thanks again so much. I love I love love our conversations and thanks everyone for listening.

Becky Hammond  32:01

Yep, and thanks to the inspiring leaders that are teaching us what it looks like to lead well in lockdown. Bye now

Episode 66 – Lockdown Leadership | Communication

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Selfcare.

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Transcript

Becky Hammond  00:01

Hello, good morning. good afternoon, Murray. How are you today?

Murray Guest  00:06

I’m really good, Becky, thank you. It’s fresh morning here, winter, of course in the southern hemisphere, but I’m really appreciating the the coolness and I’m appreciating… Honestly, I’m really appreciating the sunrises each, each morning at the moment. And I’m loving starting my day chatting to you about leadership, something that we’re so passionate about. And so, tell me what are we getting into today?

Becky Hammond  00:29

It kind of sounds like a little bit like a game show. Right? Like, so what’s up next, right. Now, you know what this series we just, we one, you heard before, you might have caught that before it was about grace and kindness. And really what we’re talking about is about what are good leaders doing right now? And what has come out of this time of crisis? You know, we started asking ourselves, What are they doing? What did they do so well? And what did they learn maybe even the hard way during this crazy world crisis that that we see them carrying forward into what might end up being a new normal, or maybe uncertainty is the new normal. And so what works as a leader as we move into a time that that maybe feels just as uncertain, if not more practiced, at least at this point. And so the themes that we are talking about over these five podcasts are grace and kindness, which you can check in the last episode, communication, we’re talking about that today, individualization and flexibility, clarity, and taking care of self. So today, we are going to dive into this concept about communication. And communication is something that I think is, it’s an overused word, so maybe I would choose a different one. Or maybe we can define it in a way that really separates it from just like, okay, yeah, good communication is a good idea. What do we mean by communication, Murray?

Murray Guest  02:04

I think that’s a really good point can I just say, Becky, on communication. Over the years when I’ve been running workshops, and I have asked teams, what can we do better? And people say communication, and I go, Ugh. Because it’s like, it’s such a broad word. And it means I could ask 20 people to write down on a piece of paper in a room, what’s communication? I get 20 different answers. So you’re right, it means so much. It means so much. So I think that’s an important point that let’s be clear, when we say communication, what are we talking about, and also for people to think about what it means for them. The second thing, though, before we get into it, I just want to mention something. I’ve been running a leadership program with a team or a group of people at an organization this past couple of weeks. And the question I’ve been asking in every session is who wants things to go back to the exact same way they were? Before this all happened, before we were working from home, working in isolation? And I’ll say my quantitative analysis of these, you know, worked with 60 leaders in this group in the last two weeks, it’s been honestly like one or two people. It’s everyone wants it to, to change in some way, for it to stay changed with these new ways of working, there’s new flexibilities, there’s new communication processes happening. People don’t want it to go back to the way they were, they can see the value and the benefit. So I think that’s where these conversations are really important to actually take the time out and say, What is working? And how do we leverage that and keep that going?

Becky Hammond  03:46

Right, and not just fall back into the way we used to do things because we used to do them and when they were comfortable, and we knew how to do it that way, but rather really pushing yourself as a leader and as a team to say, you know, what might work better? And especially what might work better, because some things just won’t ever be the same?

Murray Guest  04:06

Hmm. I totally agree. And communication. Great question about when we say that, what do we mean, what are we talking about? So yes, there’s the word we use. There’s things that we say. But there’s also the the amount of listening we’re doing. So how much are we listening to each other, listening to our teams? And then is that the whole other part of our communication, which is the energy we bring, there’s the body language, there’s our hand gestures. There’s all those little messages that we provide people. I’ve got, quote, again, from someone that I love working with is, I can’t hear what you’re saying, because what you’re doing is so loud. So as much as we may be communicating by speaking something, it’s being lost through our behaviors as well. So the way we communicate is so much and of course with all the changes in our ways of working, a lot of the behavioral communication has been lost in zoom, and online meetings and things like that. So I think that’s something that we need to be mindful of then and to be honest, even tap into that even more to really watch and to really be focused in those in those meetings and conversations. So yeah. So communication, something which I know for the people I’ve been working with has been focused on, to see how that could be improved. And how that can be something which they take forward in the way they’re working back to whatever the new normal is. Yeah. So Becky, what’s been happening with some of the clients you’ve been working with? What have you been hearing about this?

Becky Hammond  05:45

It’s kind of interesting, because as you talk about, like, all the different aspects of communication, I also think about how it’s kind of important at every level, and in every space you occupy. And I think now more than ever, you know, we might have always said communication was important in our families and our work. But now we’re saying our families and our work might be together forever, or at least in new ways. And certainly they have been over the last several months. And so a couple different stories, conversations come to my mind about leaders who’ve been really effective. And communicating well, and having, sometimes that means having tough conversations, sometimes that means having the hard conversation, I think of a leader who they were running this really big event. And it didn’t go off. Well, from a technological standpoint, the end goal actually was better than they expected. So that was the silver lining. But when she was going back to talk to her team about what went wrong, on the tech side, there was there was some pretty big defensiveness, and she’s just kind of wondering like, Okay, how do I, how do I get the whole story. And as we were talking, I realized, if they don’t have this conversation, then trust is breaking down. And so she in the end, just said, in the end, she just asked for the straight story and said, I can back you up better to these other departments if I know exactly what happened, even if you are the one that was at fault, or you had some fault in this, you know, like, in general, most problems we have, every party has some fault. And what that did was it led to more trust, not less. So even though her leader that was working for her did have some like, ooh, I don’t know, that wasn’t really the best, you know, that wasn’t the best thing to do. So maybe it was a mistake, instead, build more trust, because they were able to have a conversation and really able to communicate about that particular thing. And so that’s one of the stories that stands out to me about the power of communication. And just the challenge of it. It’s not an easy thing to do as a leader.

Murray Guest  07:59

Yeah, I totally agree. And there’s lots of programs and literature out there about having courageous conversations. And I think if anyone wants to invest in having those conversations, you can check out some of that. And of course, we do talk about in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program, because having those conversations are what shapes the culture. And I think in the program, I might say something like every conversation is an opportunity to influence the culture. I think I say a number of times, I’m a big believer in it. And I think that’s something which we can’t lose sight of as leaders for every time we have those conversations, it’s going to influence the culture in some way. And that culture of trust that you just referenced, that that leaders generating and creating, through having those conversations and owning her part, I heard that as well. Owning her part of whatever happened is so important. There’s a quote, I want to share as well that I looked up in preparation for this one, this chat about communication, and it’s from Leonard Saffir, who’s a public relations executive. And what he says is, in crisis management, be quick with the facts and slow with the blame.

Becky Hammond  09:21

Plays so well back to our conversation about grace as well. Like there’s a pause there. There’s that breath if you’re practicing, taking that breath now to inhale grace and exhale grace to other people. You just pausing to take the facts and don’t just jump to conclusions.

Murray Guest  09:43

Yeah, and it’s something which you know, in the times of crisis that we start to realize how important communication is. And what I do hope is anyone that’s listening to this they actually take that timeout, take the pause to say okay, how has my communication adjusted through this process of working from home in different arrangements, and how’s it helping me be a better leader? And how can I keep that going forward? A simple process one of the teams that I’ve been working with was doing, they had a weekly meeting, which to be honest, wasn’t that effective. They felt like it could have been clear in the purpose, clear in the process that they were having are getting together. What was happening was, they would meet for, I think, was about an hour and a half, sometimes for a week. But they wouldn’t chat that often throughout the week, throughout the week, you know, every day, there might have some project meetings, but not that good effective alignment as a team. And since working from home, they’ve implemented a daily huddle, where every morning, every morning without fail, they’re on zoom. And they are connecting as a team, and not just about what the priorities are today, what do we need to deliver on, where we’re up to with some of our challenges and goals, and some of their internal customers which was a big focus for this team. But, how are we? And they actually have a measure through to five, of where’s our health level at? And actually share that, and they check in on that. And they talk about that. And they support each other. So I actually, luckily, at the moment, I’m working with that team, and they were talking about this. And I said, Okay, so who wants this to continue when you go back in the office? And everyone’s like, Yes, me, me, me, we have to keep doing this. The value of the alignment, the engagement, they’re feeling more connected. And they are talking the other day about the speed of agility. So with this communication increase, and here’s a thought, Becky, I’d love your perspective on this, I think every team needs to talk more frequently, more regularly. Because I think too often we’ve got these old processes where, Oh we’ll just talk about this in the meeting, you know, each week or each month, or whatever it is. But when we talk more frequently for a shorter period of time in effective meeting, it builds that alignment, builds the understanding and builds that speed of decision making.

Becky Hammond  12:24

Yeah, yeah, well, the phrase that comes to mind, and I don’t know if I just made this up, or if I heard this somewhere, so let’s just be honest about that. To me, in my mind, it says less more frequently, right? So like this team that was having hour and a half meetings, they’re not meeting any more, right, they’re meeting the exact same amount of time, if they’re meeting every day of the week for 15 minutes, yet, they feel more connected, they feel less bored, they feel more engaged with each other, they understand their team better. They, what I’m just hearing you say right now, are working together better as a team, which I assume also means like getting to their goals in a more effective manner as well. And so, yeah, I love that I, I think to be efficient, and be connecting with people and working towards goals. I mean, to me, that’s a dream as a leader.

Murray Guest  13:20

Yeah, yeah, high Achiever for Becky, they’re getting…

Becky Hammond  13:26

Hey, I put that connection in there for you and your relator. So.

Murray Guest  13:31

So something I think that you started to mention before, and I might have cut you off. So I do apologize. But that was my communication coming out. But what I think is something that has been highlighted here in the past couple of months is also the importance of communication at home. And what I’ve been sharing with some teams I’ve been working with is team meetings at home. And so we have team meetings at work, you know, what’s on our plate and what projects, but we need to have those at home as well. And Tammy and I have been having team meetings for some time. And we explore a whole range of things of you know, what’s in the calendar for the children, what’s on our calendar, who’s coming, who’s going, you know, who needs the bandwidth the most on the Wi Fi, whatever, who needs the quiet time in the house. So stop talking, you know, so we can do all that. But I think I’d like to know what you’re hearing as well about this need for the increase of communication and clarity at home as well.

Becky Hammond  14:37

Yeah, yeah, there’s one leader that brings to mind who actually has always worked from home so she runs her own business from home. But now all of a sudden she doesn’t have a nanny. She doesn’t have her kids in school. Her husband is a teacher, is now at home working as well. And one of the things I was just most impressed with by her is how they brought communication as their main tool for thriving during this time, they just said, Okay, we’re gonna, I mean, communicate about the same things that you’re talking about, like, Okay, I have this important call at this time, you know, as a video recorded call, we need, I need all the bandwidth, or I need the kids out of the house for these two hours or we’re going to have constant, you know, bickering in the background of all my, you know, all my recordings or of my coaching calls. And so I was just very impressed how she brought that to the forefront. You know, this is a person who had been married for a long time, they’ve been working together for a long time in terms of running their family. But it was the first time that they really had to, like you say, have a team meeting about what, what is it gonna be like to run and operate here. And, you know, I have to always bring it back to this big overarching theme of grace. Because as you communicate, you’re offering grace to each other, you’re giving each other opportunities to compromise and to give and to take a little bit and to know that it’s not going to be, it’s not easy for either one of you in this particular situation, yet, it’s, it’s a worthy thing to fight for that. That solid communication, everyone feels like they’re operating on the same page.

Murray Guest  16:14

You know, what the other thing that I’m picking up with this theme of grace is also this theme of removing the assumptions or validating our assumptions. So we’re running off them as part of life and the way we live, but with this, this need to actually bring to the fore and talk through it. So we’re not just making an assumption of a, you know, that I’m going to need this time. Because I need the quiet time. All right, you know, no, actually, let’s talk about it. Let’s make it clear. Let’s make it over and work through that. And I’m hearing how people are getting that the importance and the impact that’s having. So it’s removing those assumptions, removing the stress. So yeah, definitely.

Becky Hammond  16:58

Yeah. So what would you say kind of are the common behaviors or actions that leaders I mean, like, so we’re talking about communications, there’s some some really good stories that we’ve heard some of it’s about, you know, about building trust. What, what are some of the practices that you feel like these are the key parts of what good communication looks like, coming out of crisis and kind of into even an uncertain time.

Murray Guest  17:28

Yeah, so I think what pops into my head first on this, Becky is having that conversation sooner. So I think about the difference between great managers and good managers, and great managers act sooner. And I think that’s one of the key things is communicating sooner, not waiting, whether that’s one on one or with the team, but having those conversations sooner. So that’s one thing. Second thing is being aware that it may be difficult. And even making that clear with the person talking about it, might be a tough conversation, but saying, hey, look, I know this might feel a bit icky. This might be a bit clunky, but I know it’s something we need to talk about. So you actually put that out there. Because that will then ease the tension. I think the other thing is, don’t rush it. Don’t be like, hey, it’s before we’re about to start our meeting. And I’ve got two minutes to tell you this is really important thing, which we have never talked about and blah. So you allow yourself again, the grace and the kindness for you and the person you’re talking to or the people through the time to have that conversation. And to do that effectively, you might need to do a bit of preparation. So a leader I was talking to this week, he needs to provide some feedback as a colleague, not someone he leads, but a peer. And he’s not happy with the way they’ve been interacting on a project. And we had a really valuable conversation about how he’s going to prepare for that conversation, not just go in and blurt it out. So again, that preparation is really important. And again, how you can show up with some empathy and kindness for that person. I think the other part is being open to owning your stuff as well. So with communication, it’s about how can we be future focused, solution focus, moving forward. And what’s your contribution? And when you own your stuff, when you show that vulnerability that opens up the space for someone else to own theirs as well. And that takes courage and courage creates a space for other people to own theirs as well.

Becky Hammond  19:41

That’s true. Yeah. And you’re talking about being a good manager versus a great manager. Another thing that great managers do in this concept of communication is they individualize their communication. The best leaders that I’ve ever met, really understand their team. I mean, kind of this goes back to knowing your people from Leaders Who Give a Damn program, that when you really know them, you can individualize your communication. And then their communication becomes much more effective. If you know that someone loves recognition and praise, then you can start every conversation with a genuine specific recognition and praise, right? Or if you know that you need time to think about things, you can give them a little, you know, heads up. But first, before you have a homerun conversation, saying, Hey, you know, I want to talk about this XYZ. And so I wanted to give you a little bit of time to think about it. I mean, those two examples, like there’s, you know, hundreds of different examples of ways that can utilise communication.

Murray Guest  20:49

Well, the bit that I think, and you and I are very passionate about strengths, and I think about knowing the strengths and preferences of people and how they like to be communicated with not to, with, and the one that I see comes up quite a bit is that context. And knowing when you’re communicating with someone how important context is to them, some people it’s not so important that might not be that, that big for them to know the detail, know the why, know the past and others, it is so important, and knowing that changes how that conversation’s going to go. Because I’ve seen it when that context has been left out. And it’s important to someone and they still just don’t get the why or the how and and they’re not engaged to it. And it honestly just doesn’t land. Whereas if someone has that importance to them, and you know that and, as you said, individualize the communication and embrace that, they’re going to really listen, and you’re going to have a much better conversation.

Becky Hammond  21:48

Yeah, and you’re going to be less frustrated as a leader too, right? Because more of your things are going to land, more of the things you want to communicate are going to compute, that you’re going to have a more rich dialogue back and forth, instead of just like, here I’m communicating to you. And yet, you don’t, you don’t know if it lands, you don’t know if it really sticks, if it’s really accepted and understood. And so you’ll be less frustrated, if you realize like, Oh, this person needs lots of context, don’t be, you know, I don’t need to be frustrated by that, I just need to provide that. And now, they’re going to be on board with the, you know, the next steps or at least more readily on board with the next steps.

Murray Guest  22:26

And as we talk about in Leaders Who Give a Damn program, we talk about self awareness. And there’s the self awareness about our own blind spots and our own communication preferences. And being aware of that, how they might show up. So yes, we want to tailor our communication for those people we’re talking with, but also how we might have our own blind spots, which are going to maybe not match this and just being aware of that, and, and being a bit flexible about that. So we can be effective in that communication. Something we talk about in one of our future conversations Becky, just want to plant the seed here, it’s really important, is the importance of clarity. And it’s such a theme that I know you and I are going to talk about with some passion. And we’ve seen this. And of course communication and these more frequent, regular, short conversations, bring that clarity. And with clarity, we reduce stress, we reduce anxiousness, we increase engagement, we actually improve the alignment and productivity. So communication and clarity go beautifully together.

Becky Hammond  23:32

Yeah, and have such an amazing impact not just on your team, but on yourself as a leader as well, just like, I can breathe easier. I mean, I know for a fact that that leader who didn’t really want to dig into the details of all the things that went wrong on that tech issue. When she did, she breathed easier, because now she can trust this person going forward as well. So it wasn’t just about resolving the past, but trusting going forward. And in that communication piece was a huge part of her feeling a new level of trust with that, that person.

Murray Guest  24:10

So a couple of suggestions here I want to put out Becky, it sort of builds beautifully on your individualization of communication that you mentioned. So one of them is, and this was a quote from a manager recently I was talking to, he said, Everything doesn’t need to be a zoom meeting.

Becky Hammond  24:28

Wait, what? It doesn’t?! 

Murray Guest  24:31

No, no. And his perspective that he’s been feeling is, Okay, we’re all working from home, hey, everyone, let’s embrace zoom, and just zoom, zoom, zoom zoom all the time. And he’s like, I’m so over it. He said, can’t we just have a quick phone call sometimes. And I think that the evolution was everything was being emailed. And then now we sort of moved into these online meetings. So I think take the pause in your communication and what’s the best platform for this conversation? Is it zoom? That could be, but it also might be an email, or it might be a quick phone call, might even be a text message. But knowing what’s going to be best. Another one I want to quickly share. And that is don’t schedule your meetings for 60 minutes or 30 minutes.

Becky Hammond  25:21

What what, like 54 minutes or something?

Murray Guest  25:25

Hey I like 54 minutes. Imagine being invited to a meeting for 54 minutes, people are going to say, What? Why is it 54? What I do with the other six minutes, what happens? You know what, with that six minutes take a breath. We do talk about this in Leaders Who Give a Damn. And it’s just a little tweak. It’s a little twist. So many teams and leaders have back to back meetings. If we give ourselves some grace, give ourselves some time. You know what, I’ll put my hand up here and say, I reckon that what you want to cover in 60 minutes is going to get covered in 50 minutes or 54 minutes, as you said. Or not 30 minutes, but 25. And what they will give you is some time, give you some time and some grace to go to the bathroom, to get a drink, to get to eat. If you’ve got back to back meetings. I challenge people. Stretch. Let’s get out of our seats. I challenge people to try this and see the impact. And actually let us know and share it online. I’d love to know. Yep, tag Becky and I. And what’s the impact when you’ve started setting meetings for 54 minutes or 23 minutes? And it’s going to change people’s mindset and start to rewire their brain. Again, something different is happening. And let’s just give it a shot and see what difference it makes.

Becky Hammond  26:53

Yeah. And just one little additional challenge to that. Try not to fill those extra six minutes with checking your email real fast between meetings, right? I mean, sometimes you got to do that. Or maybe you’re checking it in your meeting. But the the point of that is to create space, and to create a mental space for the next meeting, maybe so that you’re communicating well in the next meeting, and not just kind of blowing off steam from the last meeting. And so as you do that, you’re kind of being intentional about what do I use those six minutes for, those five minutes for, that are in between meetings as well.

Murray Guest  27:27

100% totally agree. And I think that’s a great build on the shortened meetings that and to what we’re talking about here in leadership about investing in yourself, giving yourself that time and your team. Because when you do that there’s a ripple effect as well. So Becky, to wrap us up, I’d love you to share what some of the links here that you see with our Leaders Who Give a Damn program as well.

Becky Hammond  27:56

Yeah, yeah, you know, over seven modules, Murray and I have seven conversations. And in those seven conversations, we talk about self awareness, well being, knowing your people, managing perceptions, prioritizing conversations, valuing relationships at every level, and tackling busyness. And I would say that communication is a common thread that is kind of weaved throughout every single one of those modules. And, and kind of like today where we try to leave you with a couple of like, well, what can I do with this? That’s that’s what we do in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program as well. That’s even more robust with worksheets and action items and just kind of an action plan for how can I really put these things into place so that my leadership does make an impact so that I am a leader that other people just are hankering to follow, are inspired to follow. And so if you’re enjoying conversations like this podcast, I think you’ll really, really enjoy the Leaders Who Give a Damn program.

Murray Guest  28:57

I totally agree. And I’ve loved our conversations on that program just as much as this one today. And just getting to share the great things that leaders are doing that are working and what we know have worked over the years as leaders ourselves. So again, Becky, this has been awesome chatting about the importance of communication and I look forward to some of those tags as people try some of these little tips we’re talking about. So thank you again, so much.

Becky Hammond  29:25

Yeah, this has been wonderful. And our podcast number three in this series, we’ll be talking about individualization and flexibility. So stay tuned for that one, we’ll love to have a conversation about what that means as a leader and what it can mean into this kind of new period coming out of crisis. So we’ll chat later, Murray.

Murray Guest  29:45

Yep. See you on individualization. Thanks, Becky. 

Becky Hammond  29:48

All right. Bye.

Episode 65 – Lockdown Leadership | Grace & Kindness

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged that are making the best thrive, and even make changes that they are keeping into the future. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualisation & Flexibility, Clarity, and Taking Care of Self.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:00

So it’s June 2020. And it has been an unprecedented 2020 for so many reasons. In Australia, we’ve had bushfires, there’s been crisis around the world. And of course, we’ve had COVID-19. So many people working from home, their lives and livelihoods impacted. I am so fortunate and appreciative of my health at the moment, and I know a lot of the leaders I’ve been talking to have that renewed perspective. The other thing is, in catching up with my great friend and colleague, Becky Hammond, we’ve been talking about some of those leadership themes that have been shining through right now. And how they’ve been so important in leading teams and leading ourselves to be honest, through these challenging times. And we’re going to explore those key themes in a series of conversations, which I’m so excited to do, because I absolutely love catching up with Becky, and I love the knowledge and insights she brings. So Becky, looking forward to talking with you today. 

Becky Hammond  00:59

Yeah, I’m looking forward to it as well. It seems like this has just been something that kind of naturally, organically came out of conversations that we’ve been having not only together about, you know, our work together with leaders who give a damn, but also with the conversations with leaders that we’ve been having, you know, I mean, I would say since what, early to mid March, and that who have been dealing with world crisis and what that has meant for their individual lives, personally in their families, and then also in their role as leaders and with their teams. So there’s just there been some themes that have stuck out and there’s, I don’t know, what did we decide? There’s five or so themes that we’re going to just kind of have some conversations around and really try to provide some actionable next steps like, Okay, this is what some of the best leaders are doing. And so how can I put a couple of these little behaviors into my own leadership to make a difference now, even as we’re kind of coming out of crisis, those themes are grace and kindness – we did a whole free training on that which man, this is this one’s packed. There’s communication, individualization and flexibility, clarity, and then taking care of self. So over the next five podcasts, we’ll be diving into each of those in more depth. And today, we’re talking about grace and kindness.

Murray Guest  02:30

Yeah, you’re exactly right. I remember a few weeks back, man, I’m losing track of time and weeks at the moment. But yeah, we talked about the importance of grace in our leadership and how important that theme is. And you’re right, Becky, there’s these leaders that I’ve been connecting with over these past eight weeks. And they’ve been sharing with me what’s working and what’s not. And there’s been some real key themes coming out of that. And this idea about leading with more grace, leading with more kindness with their people. People’s situations have been turned, really upside down in so many ways. Companies having to find ways and systems and processes and cultures, to be honest, to have people work from home, and have people feel empowered, trusted and supported to do their work at home in very different unique situations, while at the same time worrying about their lives, their health of themselves, their family, and the people they love. So leading with grace and kindness is just so important. Because you know what, we are talking about people, we are talking about humans. And I want to go back to my first little point that has been so important is this new perspective and gratitude that we have for those people, and for our own lives and those people that we have in our lives. So Becky, I just want to, before we jump into this, when you think about grace, when you think about what that looks like, what do you think when we say leading with grace looks like? What’s your sort of definition there?

Becky Hammond  04:07

Yeah, you know, I think a lot about this concept myself and I, there’s a definition that I have loved and I teach my kids which is unmerited favor. So it’s giving favor where you don’t deserve it. And I think that looks like giving yourself and others a break. And, and expecting the best or thinking the best. Assuming the best I guess is the word I’m looking for, assuming the best in the situation, and giving a break when the best isn’t actually happening.

Murray Guest  04:44

And I think I just also agree totally on that idea of assumptions. And as humans we’re making assumptions all the time. As leaders, we’re making assumptions about people. We make assumptions of our partners and our children and and I think it’s about, maybe honestly, in this time resetting those assumptions and thinking, Okay, what assumptions am I making and are those assumptions filled with grace? Are they filled with kindness? And there was a group I was working with recently, a group of leaders. And I actually, I said something which had a bit of a discussion happened around, it was a bit maybe a bit controversial at the moment. But I said, No leader should be assuming that their team members can deliver on the exact same work they were doing before they started working from home, we just can’t make those assumptions. And later on, of course, we’re going to talk about individualization and now leadership and how important that is. But you’ve had some leaders you’ve been working with who have been doing this really well. And you’ve got a couple of stories that I think would be great to hear about that help you understand what, you know, what this grace looks like in reality.

Becky Hammond  05:54

Yeah, in action. Yeah. Cuz I think it’s easier to say than do and I think that’s the thing that’s been interesting is like, the leaders that I’ve been talking to you say, Yeah, I just, I think my strategy needs to give myself more grace, or I need to give my team more grace. Well, what does that really look like in action? One leader that I was talking to you said, you’re not going to get it right. And just kind of like, it’s been her mantra. And I think that, to me, feels like grace in action, to give yourself a break. I mean, it’s good, that idea of giving yourself a break to know in advance that you’re going to make mistakes, especially in a situation and unprecedented situations that you’ve never been in before, and no one has ever been in before. She said that she was sitting, and that there was a younger colleague who was sitting in a board meeting and said something to the effect of, you know, well, this is my first pandemic, so I don’t really know what I’m gonna do. And she’s like, yeah, it’s everyone’s first pandemic, right? We don’t know, we don’t, we’re not, we’re not going to get it right every time. So I feel like that’s grace in action. And that same leader was, I feel like she was giving her, she had some really tangible stories in her own life of how she was able to live that out. One of those had to do with a project timeline. She’s somebody who is high in the Clifton strengths responsibility theme. And so for her, like, meeting a deadline was really, really important. And one night she had these budgets due and she realized that she could stay up until two in the morning and get them done. And technically get them in on time, because it was in before the next day, responsibility, you share that strength too.

Murray Guest  07:41

So I totally connect with this story.

Becky Hammond  07:46

But she was exhausted. And what she, as she stepped back and kind of looked at her situation, she said, You know what, I’m not going to be giving my best work, there could be errors in this, I could just miss something, I could miss something big. And so instead, she wrote a little note to her colleagues and said, I need to submit this tomorrow. And I will do it with fresh eyes. And it will get in. And so at three o’clock the next day, she submitted something that she was proud of, and that she knew wasn’t gonna have errors in it. But that type of, that type of grace to herself was not something that she was accessing very often, prior to this crisis situation. Because maybe, because she didn’t have to as much, things just weren’t as stressful and weren’t, they didn’t have as much pressure. But also because her life wasn’t as complicated as it is, as it is now working from home with kids and husband at home. And you know, all the different variables that, you know, that we need to give our ourselves grace for.

Murray Guest  08:48

Yeah, and I think, I love that we, you know, talk about our role as leaders and the people that we lead, but there’s also leading self. And here, I’m hearing so strongly that importance of how can I be kind to myself, how can I show myself some of that grace as well, because we need to look after ourselves as much as we do the people we lead. And I actually, the bit that’s popped into my head, Becky, as we were exploring this great example is, there’s possibly I think some things that were happening before, I’d say COVID-19 hit. And as a leader, that’s just highlighted the importance of those things. And what I mean by that is, yes, I had grace in my leadership, yes I was kind, but now I need to do it even more. So now I need to actually think even more consciously about where I’m investing my time. And the messages I’m sending, and the way I’m doing that. So that changing language, as you said, we’re not going to get it right. While that’s so small, in a few words, but so powerful. And, and, and then to extend that to, you know, I’m actually going to have a bit of courage and call a colleague and say look, I just can’t get it done. I’m gonna get to it tomorrow.

Becky Hammond  10:03

Yeah, that does take courage.

Murray Guest  10:05

I was gonna say, similar, a leader I was talking to they were talking about changing their language as well from the expectations on their team from not asking for something by close of business, to start of the next day. 

Becky Hammond  10:23

And how did that make a difference? 

Murray Guest  10:25

Yeah. So, again, I think it builds beautifully off your example of changing the culture and changing it to be okay to work in with some grace of the challenges that everyone’s got in their life, with children or home situation, whatever that may be, to say, Yes, I need this back, I need a report or some data or some information. But I can wait till the start of tomorrow. So what that might mean for this person is I’ve got some things I need to do this afternoon. I can actually get into that a bit later on. Yeah, maybe after dinner, which is something we probably wouldn’t normally do and encourage because we want to, but that’s just become so blurred. But what it created was grace, and also created flexibility. And the team said, Hey, we really appreciate knowing that.

Becky Hammond  11:15

That’s really cool. One of the things that comes to my mind when I think about grace and kindness, too, is not, it’s not the big things. It’s not as much the big things that we’ve seen the leaders do, but also kind of some of the little things, little ways that, you know, maybe don’t have anything to do with the actual business product that you’re producing, but that they are doing to create a sense of grace and kindness to crew to be a leader leader who exudes that I know, you have a couple examples of that as well.

Murray Guest  11:46

Yeah, and another one, which we hadn’t talked about before that I was only exploring this week with a leader. And she was talking about how powerful it is to actually observe the behavior. And she, she just had that reminder around, people will say something like, yeah I’m not going to work all through the night. And yeah, yeah, I’m having lunch. And you know, but what she said, for her kindness in her leadership, she was really mindful of, actually, they’re saying that, but their behavior is showing, and actually, really constructively challenging them on their behavior and showing that kindness and resetting those expectations. So I thought that was really good from her doing that. And of course, the big one, which I talked about in my podcast earlier this year, was a local manufacturer near where I live, who, to be honest, they make big dishwashing machines for restaurants and cafes, and all that. And diners, as you would call them, Becky.

Becky Hammond  12:48

I don’t know if I’ve ever used that word.

Murray Guest  12:54

Their world, their business took a you know, a big hit, a big stop, because all of that just finished. And all those businesses were closed down. And the leader of that business and I had a really good chat. And he said what he was aware of is people in that business had recently bought houses. These were employees that had new mortgages, new families, and they were going to have their livelihoods impacted if they didn’t have a job, if they weren’t able to pay their mortgage, and like very serious situations. And so they pivoted very quickly, and I think it was like 10 days, very, very quickly, and started manufacturing hand sanitizer in bulk and providing that and selling that. The fantastic thing is they’ve been very, very busy. They are now moving back into their normal manufacturing as well because you know, lockdown laws are changing. But what I’m really glad to say is also the leader was really aware of the of the importance of the culture, the communication, and keeping everyone engaged throughout that process. And then another great thing is they’ve been recognized locally, in the media, in newspapers and on the TV just for doing that. So yeah, just a really great story about Yes, it’s a pivot and yes it’s innovation, but there’s a real kindness and grace in that as well.

Becky Hammond  12:59

Right? Because it sounds like it was motivated by trying to keep people employed. Not necessarily even, I mean part of it is the result, right, but not necessarily even motivated by trying to keep their business afloat, which of course, was an equal concern, right. But what can we do to help keep these people employed? And what can we do to help meet a need that the world has right now? I mean, talk about extending grace, for yourself to the people that work for you to the entire world. That’s pretty amazing example.

Murray Guest  14:51

Yeah. And, you know, some people might be listening to them thinking, I can’t do that in my business. I can’t make that that big change. I can’t have that innovation. So I think what it’s also about is thinking about the small little things like some of those examples of the language and the also the very small messages you can send your team. So one I’d love to share is, I know about a couple of leaders who I’ve been talking to recently who have really started to focus in on where’s the team at? Where’s the energy of the team? How are they feeling at the start of their meeting? Because as someone saying to me recently, it was a bit novel, hey, we get to work from home isn’t this great? This is new. I get to work from home. And yet, there’s energy there. And I’m working from home. And next to me is my child who’s drawing and this is fun. And then after a few weeks, it was like, Oh, this is hard work. 

Becky Hammond  15:51

And he doesn’t want to draw anymore. Yeah, you know, they’re like, throwing the crayons and eating them. And yeah.

Murray Guest  15:59

And, and another lady this week was talking about how she often is working, and next thing the cat is on the keyboard. So there’s that our human children, and also the the pet children as well as challenges. Yes. So after the novelty has worn off, and we’ve sort of in the hamster wheel, the importance of leaders of leading with grace and kindness to actually not just push through in an agenda, not just push through this as our standard meeting approach, but actually doing that pause and saying, how are we? How are we feeling? And do we actually need to talk more about that right now than what we thought we’re going to talk about, which is an update on some projects or some tasks, because what’s more important is you and your well being not that project, because you know what, that could slide a little bit because I care about you. And if you think just bring that into your language, and your approach can just have such a big ripple effect, to not just how someone feels, but then their engagement, and you’ll get the productivity as well.

Becky Hammond  17:09

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it’s sometimes hard to make that connection, right. Like, it’s hard to make that like, you know, what, part of me bristles a little bit when you say, well, we don’t have to, you know, we have to concentrate on that initiative, even though that’s due tomorrow, right? Rather, we should be focusing on the energy of our team and how people are really doing. But just like you said, there’s like that there’s a ripple effect. That, that in the end, you will get that thing done for tomorrow, and you will get it done happy, right? People will enjoy getting those things done, and potentially even show up even more engaged and ready for the next project.

Murray Guest  17:49

Yeah, well, I think the bit there, and I think you’re right, we still have things that need to get done. We still have tasks, projects, goals that need to be delivered on right. And it’s about considering how we are feeling, considering where we’re at, considering how individuals are at, how do we bring that to the table in a constructive, supportive way to then deliver on what we need to deliver on? So do we need to provide more support? Do we need to move resources? Do we need to start to share the workload? How are we exploring it, discussing that instead of just again, making some assumptions? Right? Now I want to know about flowers, and a leader you’re working with who did something which I thought was very, very beautiful, just such a powerful thing to do.

Becky Hammond  18:38

Yeah, and it really is powerful. And so, so simple, so, so easy. Right during towards the beginning of the stay at home orders in the town where this person works, she decided to go to a flower shop. So you know, when that was still open, and supported the local flower shop and bought some flowers, and went and delivered them to each person’s house on her leadership team with a handwritten note, and flowers, and she didn’t even ring the doorbell, she just left them at the door and then sent a text message that said, Hey, something’s at your door. So it was completely you know, at the time, especially because people were, you know, we’re very nervous about being anywhere near each other. They, she just, you know, was respectful of what was going on. But then also recognizing you’ve been putting in a lot of work, you’ve been putting in a lot of hours. In this particular industry was one that didn’t come to a standstill. In fact, they were having to figure out more and more things that they that they’ve never had to figure out before and refunding a lot of money to people who had already paid. And so they were feeling extremely stressed and working days and days and days in a row by that point, and this little gesture this little act of kindness. Just it, it put breath into the lives of the leaders that were working so tirelessly for her and forth for the organization.

Murray Guest  20:14

I love that. And it’s such a great example of grace in action. Because as you said at the start, it’s, it’s without expectation of it coming back to you. It’s without, to be honest, it’s with surprise. So it’s not like she knocked on the door and said, Hey, here’s your flowers, I want you to see that I’m delivering them. It was very much, I’m just doing this as a gift of appreciation, and to brighten your day. And she didn’t need to be there for that. So and you’re right, yes, there would have been some costs there. But it wouldn’t have been, you know, astronomical. But the value I’m sure people felt when they saw that would have been, you know, much more than the cost of it itself. And very similar, but a bit different. A leader I know, they, in their organization, again, very similar, busy, even busier. But they needed to run these Lunch and Learn sessions, which a lot of companies do, where they might provide lunch, or you bring your own lunch. So they’ll running those over zoom, and what this leader did, so everyone’s working from home at lunch and learn. So prior to the lunch and learn, sent everyone a voucher for Uber Eats. So the encouragement was, you know, contact someone in your local area. And luckily, everyone could, and organize something that you want to eat. That’s your thing. So it might have been Mexican or Italian or a bit of pizza, what it was doesn’t matter. But that was your thing, and have that delivered. So everyone’s opening up their Uber Eats bag for the lunch and learn together. So a bit of cost there. But again, it was, Hey, I’m being kind in my leadership. I’m being appreciative in his again, surprise to the team. 

Becky Hammond  22:09

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. It’s just a special way to be creative. I mean, they, they probably were providing lunches during lunch and learn pre March, right? And now they’re just doing it in a different way, in a way that would be surprising and delighting. And, you know, I mean, that’s the thing with grace, you say it’s like, it’s unmerited. It’s not like, it’s not like the person is expecting accolades, right, but also the person who receives it. They’re just doing their job, right. I mean, at this point, they’re just doing their job. It’s not like they’re, they deserve to have Uber Eats show up, or they deserve to have flowers and a note and a handwritten note, yet the leader is offering grace by giving that to them when it goes beyond it goes above and beyond just recognizing that it has nothing to do with their performance, but everything to do with that desire to kind of operate from grace and kindness.

Murray Guest  23:08

Yeah, and I think there’s a renewed perspective, there’s a renewed gratitude. There’s a renewed engagement, and even connection, if you think of those those flowers, or, yeah just the flowers, everyone in that team thinking, hey, we’ve all got flowers today. Yes, we are working from home, we are miles apart. But you know what, we’re all connected still, we’re all so connected. And same with the Uber Eats as well. And I know that that gratitude has been renewed in a lot of leaders I’ve been talking to and how they are refreshing that in their perspective to help them and help their team. And I know for me, it’s something which I’ve really drawn on in these past eight weeks, around my family, and around the chance to see my children exercising together, the chance to be more creative. Interestingly, Becky, I don’t I think we’ve talked about this, but my wife and I, Tammy and I’ve played backgammon every afternoon for the past eight months, not eight months, weeks, it’s felt like eight months, eight weeks, eight weeks, I think we’ve missed two days. And it’s only just for 15 minutes, you know, and she’s been teaching me and she’s much better than me, let’s be honest. But it’s the simple smallest thing, which, you know, there’s there’s some great benefit for strategic thinking coming out of it. But it’s more of a connection. And that would not have happened out of this process out of you know, what’s happened to us. So I think there’s something about taking the time to pause and we talk about the power of the pause quite a bit to have that gratitude of what we’ve got and how that helps us because that links I think beautifully to that kindness as well. 

Becky Hammond  24:57

Yeah totally. And when you think about the impact That you are having as a leader when you’re operating from grace, this is not something that’s easy to choose. It’s not something that’s really easy to do. Because you might not feel like I mean, even simple things like not feeling like going to the store and getting flowers or writing a note, you’re busy too. You’re just as busy. You are maybe busier than your team of leaders that you’re leading. Yet, yet, there’s an impact that goes that, just goes miles and miles or kilometers and kilometers, excuse me. You know, and when I think about the impact, I’m thinking like, well, what’s the alternative? Do we want, you know, if what we’re trying to build is compassion and trust and hope through offering grace, like the alternative is like begrudging, shame based perfectionistic leadership that’s rigid and presumptive and, you know, like that, when I put those two things side by side, even though grace is harder, the results that you get from grace and kindness are so much more significant and so much more human. That you say, okay, maybe it’s worth the extra effort.

Murray Guest  26:17

Yeah, and I think the slowing down, to be honest, the slowing down, that does come with being a bit more graceful being a bit more kind, and leadership might feel like it’s taking more time, it’s slowing us from what we’re doing right now. But then that, as we said earlier, there’s a flow on effect, a ripple effect from that, and it builds. There’s a leadership quote, that I learned, oh, gee, must have been 10-12 years ago, and I still come back to it quite a bit. And it’s a very simple phrase, how we get there matters. And we are getting somewhere. But how we get there really matters, the way we work, the way we interact, the way we come together as people as humans. And we show that care and kindness for each other is so important. I mean, at the end of the day, what sort of leader do you want to be remembered for? What’s your legacy? And I think, yes, this has been difficult. I don’t want to gloss over that. Yes, it’s been hard, people’s lives and livelihoods have been impacted. But at the same time, it gives us an opportunity for us to look in the mirror and say, Okay, how can I be a more graceful and kind leader? And be a leader others want to follow?

Becky Hammond  27:37

Yeah definitely.

Murray Guest  27:41

Yeah. So just to wrap this up this great conversation, oh, I get so energized talking to you about this stuff. So thank you. What do you think are some simple things? What do you think are some simple things people could do that could help them to really tap into this grace and kindness?

Becky Hammond  27:59

Yeah, I think we’ve shared some really good examples of things that you could do, simple things you could do to add, modify to what fits your team. Another one that I’ve loved that a healthcare leader recently expressed to me and suggested was breathe. Now, that sounds like what does this have to do with grace. But as I thought about it, she was talking about the pause that we were talking about, you know, in order to breathe well, you have to pause, you have to stop. You can’t I mean, you don’t breathe your best. Unless you’re, you know, an elite Olympic athlete, you’re not breathing your best when you’re running a million miles an hour, right? You’re breathing your best when you’ve stopped, you paused, you slowed. And I, I just I had this visualization about the breath that she was talking about. It’s like, the simple act of like taking a breath in like, *gasps* and then letting it out. Slowly, exhaling. The inhale is like the act of receiving grace to yourself. So bringing that into yourself, filling yourself with like, it’s okay, I’m not going to get it right. And then exhale, is letting that grace out to others. I just love what that physicality does. And also the word picture does of like I’m breathing grace in and, and letting it out to others.

Murray Guest  29:24

I love that so much. And I think, you know, there’s so much power in tapping into our breath and mindfulness and meditation, but just that simple connection with grace and doing that, at the start of every meeting at the start of conversations at the start of your day, and you can bring that anytime into your life. But I honestly love that connection with grace as well that bring it in and lending it out to everyone around you in your circle as well. So, yeah, simple, but effective. And as you said, there’s some things we’ve covered, build on that as well around some of those simple messages and tokens and language you’re using with your teams and with those people that you work with, and being more mindful of that and think about, okay, how can I say this with grace? How can I communicate with grace? How can I show that and tapping into that? And I know that as we continue this podcast conversation, we will, in the future conversations, tap back into this and link into this with some of the future topics we’re going to talk about. The other thing, Becky, I think we’ve had some great links to the Leaders Who Give a Damn program. I mean, in there we talk about self awareness, we talk about your well being. But of course, we talk about knowing your people. And we’ve got a great module about how important is knowing your people. And so I know in that program, we we explore these concepts, and they link beautifully to grace and kindness as well.

Becky Hammond  30:58

Yep, in each of those conversations, kind of like today, but even more so, we leave every leader with some real true action, some action planning guides, and some worksheets and things that, you know, you can listen to a conversation and say, okay, maybe I can take one nugget out. But the program itself is designed to be able to help say, okay, yes, you need to take a nugget out. And what’s that going to be for you? And how are you going to put it into play? And let us be the ones that can help you do that. So yeah, so if you’re liking these types of conversations, you will love Leaders Who Give a Damn.

Murray Guest  31:36

So thank you so much for talking about grace and kindness and leadership. And in our next conversation, we’re going to talk about how important communication has been in these past couple of months and some of the insights and stories that we’ve got to share with people from the leaders we’ve been talking to him working with. So I look forward to doing that with you, Becky. Thanks again so much.

Becky Hammond  31:57

Yes, thank you, Murray. Always a pleasure. And I look forward to the next very important conversation about communication.

Episode 63 – Sharon Hespe | The Good Gut Girl

In this episode I chat with Sharon Hespe, a naturopath who is also known as The Good Gut Girl and who wholeheartedly believes that it is possible to change your life through good gut health.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Welcome, Sharon to the podcast. Great to see you. Great to catch up with you, how you been? 

Sharon Hespe  00:08

Fantastic Mary, how are you?

Murray Guest  00:10

I’m good. I’m feeling good today, I am feeling a bit heavy hearted about all that’s going on in the world, that’s for sure, particularly in America, and it is spreading obviously, the protests and the awareness around just what’s going on, and the changes that need to be made. And whilst you and I both understand strengths, and I do joke around and say my empathy is low, and yours is high, I’m definitely feeling it at the moment that heaviness as well.

Sharon Hespe  00:36

Yeah, that’s understandable. There are major changes going on now all at the moment. And, and sometimes it’s a little bit hard to cope with everything, because there is just so much going on.

Murray Guest  00:48

Yeah, and I know that certainly you help with your clients that you see around how to handle that and do that. And similar to myself, I guess, the client I see quite often is coming back to what’s in your control, what can you do about it? And, having the conversation I think is really important as well.

Sharon Hespe  01:05

That is very true. And often I will say to my patients, there is nothing that I can do to control what’s going on around you. But there are lots of herbal medicines and supplements I can give you that will help you to relax into what’s going on and not be so stressed about what’s happening. So it gets you the herbs and supplements will help you to adapt to situations rather than reacting.

Murray Guest  01:31

And that building of resilience within the body with the work that you do so that we can handle what’s going on in our world. I’m sure that’s that’s what I’m hearing there. Now you are known as the good gut girl. Which I love. I love it such a great saying and a great perspective that you bring that people I know need to learn about on ask, Why? Why this focus on the gut? How did that come about for you in your area of naturopathy?

Sharon Hespe  02:05

Gosh, I remember many years ago, or around 12 years ago, when I was studying in a clinic, we had a supervisor and she was really big on food intolerances. And it was such a complex world. And I remember thinking, I’m not sure that I’m really gonna get into food intolerances when I get out and become a naturopath because it’s so complex, it’s so hard. Sure, there must be an easier way to make money. So I remember when I first became a naturopath and my very first patient had a food intolerance was like, Okay, I really know what to do here, because I’m really experienced because of my clinic supervisor, and then the next person and then the next person. So I did probably half my work in the beginning around food intolerances. And then a letter landed in my letterbox from the council, and they were saying that they wanted to help health professionals to build their business within the St. George, the St. George community. So I thought, Okay, that sounds great. So they, they created and ran a business course for us. And it was absolutely brilliant. And in one of those lessons, I can remember one of the facilitators saying, you really need to pick something that is that is happening now that there is a future to and you really need to nation, it was like, Huh, okay, I think I know what I need to do. So I said, Look, I really think I need to focus on food intolerances because I have a lot of experience in it. And more and more people are coming down with gut problems. So I did and that’s what I really focused on. And since then, that’s almost, in fact, that is the only patients I do see I’ve got problems. If I have someone with fertility or song with cancer or someone with some other problem, I will refer them on automatically because in my mind, I’ve got problems day in, day out. So when I sit and listen to somebody, immediately it comes straight to mind. I never have to go to a textbook, I never have to go and look something up because it’s just what I do day in day out.

Murray Guest  04:18

And your your depth of knowledge from seeing all those people and understanding their needs is this I can imagine this library that you have just ready access to in your head and from all those experiences.

Sharon Hespe  04:30

That’s correct. And there’s a lot of anecdotal symptoms with gut problems, lots of anecdotal symptoms that you see. So if, for instance, if somebody would would present with a fructose malabsorption problem, they would have pain high up in the gut, that pain at times will be really severe. There will be worse after garlic and onions there will be worse after fruit on an empty stomach. There could be anxiety there will be liver function problems just straight away before I even test, I will think, okay, it’s likely that there’s an intestinal absorption problem here, because those symptoms are very, very common in that gut problem.

Murray Guest  05:13

So for those people listening that may not have an understanding of the difference between a food allergy and a food intolerance. Okay, can you help us understand those differences?

Sharon Hespe  05:24

Yes, yes, they’re both mediated by the immune system. But an allergy is an IGE mediated problem. And an intolerance or sensitivity is mediated by the IDG part of your immune system. So with the IGE part, it’s like we almost saw that has a peanut allergy or a seafood allergy. So the reactions that you get will happen between around sometimes 30 seconds, up to five to 10 minutes, after you ingest that food, we’re any tolerance will happen, you will get a symptom between possibly half an hour and up to five days later. So it makes it quite difficult to, to work out what’s going on. So I do test a lot for intolerances, because it’s just the easiest way to do it. But yeah, there’s a big difference between an allergy and intolerance. And obviously, allergies are life threatening emergencies. And you, you will always have an epi pen, and there’s a huge difference. And once you either have an allergy or you have an intolerance, then you understand what’s going on.

Murray Guest  06:26

Yeah, I think that’s a distinction that I was aware of that an allergy is life threatening, whereas an intolerance is and tell me if this is incorrect it in causes health, I guess, concerns and problems and discomfort, but doesn’t have that same consequences that are that when you have the allergy it has?

Sharon Hespe  06:49

That’s correct. That is right. But it does create some really uncomfortable and really awful symptoms to people that they have to live with day in, day out. And sometimes people just tend to get used to it and their illness becomes the new, normal way of feeling that this is how these sounds always been sad people feel. Whereas an allergy it’s a totally different thing.

Murray Guest  07:13

I’ve heard some things in the media. Over the years of that there’s more people having food intolerances than the past. And they’re on the increase on wondering Is that what’s happening? Or are we just getting better at identifying them? Or is it a bit of both?

Sharon Hespe  07:30

Look, I do think it’s a bit of both. But there are a few things that really will contribute to a food intolerance or a gut problem, and that is stress. And you look at the world, especially since January this year, and look at the stress people have been on it. It’s been huge. But as well as stress, it’s poor dietary choices. So too much weat, too much dairy, too many processed foods. So people say oh, in my day, you know, my grandparents didn’t have that. They had a very different life than we have now. They had a community to help them they had family to help them. And they had food from the gardens, you know, or they had they had a lot of fresh food, they didn’t have nearly as much processed food as we have, or nearly as much stress. So both of those things are huge contributors to food intolerances.

Murray Guest  08:17

So if I’m walking around, and I think I’ve got a food intolerance, what should I do?

Sharon Hespe  08:25

Okay, first thing is you need to find a naturopath that is great with gut health, because they will be able to help you. I say to people, 

Murray Guest  08:35

Can I just go back a second? How would I even know if I’ve got a problem?

Sharon Hespe  08:38

Interesting. That’s true. That’s true. So you would have symptoms and all go really probably from the head down. You may be getting headaches, you may feel a bit foggy, you may have a terrible memory, you may be getting mouth ulcers, you may be getting indigestion or reflux, you may be getting gut pain, that gut pain may be high up on your ribs or it might be lower down. You may be getting bloating, you may be tired a lot. Your muscles may ache you may have. Your poo might smell all of those sort of things are symptoms that you may or may not have.

Murray Guest  09:20

I think that’s a quite a big list and actually I think brings attention that when we are out of alignment those problems you know got a can impact so many parts of our body can’t it. 

Sharon Hespe  09:32

Off course it does. Yes. 

Murray Guest  09:35

Okay, so then as you’re saying if we’ve got some of those complaints, or we’ve got some of those health concerns, and my normal is like that and I’m don’t want that normal anymore. You started to say then see a naturopath that has a knowledge and skill around gut health.

Sharon Hespe  09:53

Yeah, that is so true. And the key that our that the way that I like to operate. I’ve the way I do things is you need to find the cause of what’s going on. So and we’ve we’ve got problems, it can be really things, it can be a food intolerance, it can be SIBO, which is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, it might be a fruit, just malabsorption problem, or it could be just too much bad bacteria in that gut. And you know, we all see that television ads where you’ve got the good bacteria dancing, and the bad bacteria dancing, and the bad bacteria tend to take over. And that just means there’s too much bad bacteria in your gut, it can be a Candida overgrowth, it might be a parasite, it could be a salicylate problem, it could be a histamine problem. So there are quite a few things that can be. But the key is, as with all health conditions, you need to find the cause, before you can treat it properly, there is only so much that you can do symptomatically

Murray Guest  10:49

it really is about finding the cause. And something you’re saying before about the timeframe that the symptoms can show up, Is there like a load that you can slowly build up over a period of time with those food intolerances or those problems, it’s not like a switch, and it just happened. So it could be a number of things going on to get to a point where you’ve got the pains and the aches and the symptoms. Yeah, that is very true, it’s a little bit similar to the perfect storm. And often what you’ll see when people have a food intolerance, they’ll have a stressful event. So then I’ll get married, then we’ll get divorce, that they bought a house or had a child or someone’s died. So they’ll have this really stressful event that happens to them. And they gut lining becomes in really bad shape. And if the food proteins are not being broken down or digested properly, those food proteins drop into that leaky gut through that leaky gut into the bloodstream. And you’ll have a reaction. So I’ll use myself as an example as to how this happened. And about nearly 10 years ago, now, my mother was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And she had passed away within the week. And she was already she was 63 years old. So that’s a relatively young age. And then all of a sudden, she was alive, relatively healthy. And within a week she passed away. So it was a really stressful time for me. And I can still remember the stress of that time and about. So I went back to work and do the whole funeral all of the things that you’re supposed to do when somebody dies. And then about three months later was like, why am I so tired, I was so tired, I would set my phone alarm for 20 minutes and sleep on the couch between patients, because I was so exhausted. And it took me quite a while to work out what it was and then hang on a minute. Maybe I’ve got a food intolerance. But I’d never had any other symptoms, no bloating, no pain, no constipation, none of the other symptoms that are talked about at all. And I thought well just test yourself and see. So I did I did the finger prick blood testing clinic process at all, and was like, Oh my god, I there was about five or six foods that showed strong intolerance as well. Okay, I still wasn’t convinced. I thought okay, well just remove the foods and see how you feel. I felt terrible for the first four or five days as I removed those foods from my diet. But But that day forward, I six was like, I could run to the top of Mount Everest, I felt so good. And that’s when I knew Okay, it was a 50 chance but but those are sort of things you see with a food intolerance, you see a stressful event, and you will always I always had a little bit of hay fever. That’s it. That’s the only sign off into my head. And obviously, I had gotten to like other people. This is my new normal. This is how I’m supposed to feelwhen it wasn’t. So it’s quite interesting.  There are things that I’m thinking about too is when we’re under stress quite often we go to drinking and eating things which aren’t the best for us. 

Sharon Hespe  13:49

Always. 

Murray Guest  13:50

Which then compound the problem, I guess.

Sharon Hespe  13:52

Yeah, that’s true. And too What happens is people think, well, I feeling really bad anyway. So why would I do what I want to wait? Because how much worse can I really feel?

Murray Guest  14:03

I’m feeling crap. So you know what, I’m just going to drink some more so I can not feel it. And then I might eat a whole bunch of, I don’t know junk food or comfort food? Because that’s what I’m feeling like, and then that’s not helping as well.

Sharon Hespe  14:15

That’s correct. That’s exactly what happens. Yeah, it’s a huge, vicious cycle that sometimes you need someone just to step in and intervene and say, let’s look at things in a different way.

Murray Guest  14:27

So you mentioned good and bad bacteria. What are some things which help us build that good bacteria in our gut?

Sharon Hespe  14:36

Okay, with the good bacteria you need to, for really good gut health you need around 40 different plant foods per week, which is a lot of plant foods per week. Ideally, if your gut is in great shape, you will cope with those sorts of plant foods. And that will keep your gut in fantastic shape. So it’s about variety. It’s about brightly colored foods and things such as that

Murray Guest  15:00

Okay, and I’ve heard that drinking doesn’t help those good bacteria. When I say drinking I mean drinking alcohol.

Sharon Hespe  15:09

Yeah, alcohol, alcohol and caffeine can be really detrimental to the gut lining, it’s really quite inflammatory and you’ve got it that lining you can imagine, it’s like having. If you can imagine your fingers, your hand and you open up your hand, and you can spread your fingers out beautifully. And that hand works really, really well. So then imagine, if three of those fingers were stuck together and only one was open, your hand won’t function very well, like that. You’ve got the same if it’s not in great shape, it can’t function well. And, and then you’re in flaming that one little part that is still open, then it just compounds and becomes worse and worse and worse.

Murray Guest  15:51

Yeah. Okay. So this is a bit of a reset for me. Thanks, Sharon. I mean, I’m now drinking less drinking less coffee. You’re just ticking off these things, maybe what else am I gonna cut out next your going to tell me, no chocolate!

Sharon Hespe  16:07

Ah, I see. The problem with chocolate is the dairy. So I think he is people always forget that chocolate has dairy, but it’s dairy milk chocolate. So look, dairy. A1 dairy in particular is the probably the food that is most problematic for most people. But you can have dark chocolate, because that doesn’t have any dairy milk in it. You just need to be careful when you read the label that doesn’t say it contains milk solids.

Murray Guest  16:38

So I do have I do like my dark chocolate. And I am mindful also of enjoy life in moderation. So having those small bits of dark chocolate. But I you know, I think we all slip up and that’s something maybe which I wonder about too, and about being kind to ourselves when we do slip up a little bit because we got to be kind to ourselves, maybe to get back moving forward again, don’t we? 

Sharon Hespe  17:02

Yeah, of course. And I often say to people, you know, when they come in for their second or their third appointment, They say, look, I need to be honest. I haven’t, you know, haven’t done what you’ve asked me and I feel terrible. And I say, Look, you’re human, it’s okay. You know, just get back on the horse. And let’s start again, it doesn’t mean that you’ve ruined all the work that we’ve done. It just means that you’re humans. And and, you know, just don’t be so hard on yourself. Let’s give you find ways to help you to do it better. 

Murray Guest  17:34

Yeah, great, great. I need to ask about the emergence, if that’s the right word about kombucha in the last must be last couple of years, I guess. And I admit, I don’t mind, if I’m at the shops or if I’m getting some petrol from the service station, I might grab a bottle of kombucha. And I’m, I’m telling myself, that’s a better alternative, and I haven’t drank coke and things like that for years, that I’m telling myself that’s a better alternative and it’s doing me some good. How much good is it doing me? Really,

Sharon Hespe  18:09

Kombucha is a little bit like sauerkraut and it’s a little bit like all of the so called functional foods. Now that probably 60 is probably a good word for them. Now, with your gut health, they say that things like kombucha and sauerkraut, give your gut good bacteria. In fact, they don’t give your gut good bacteria. They are like all other foods and they are transient. But one good thing about them is that another food so that’s another source of variety for your gut, which is also good. So I said, Look, you know, maybe one kombucha week is fine, but a kombucha everyday is too much. And often I will see patients that say okay, I’ve been on this huge health kick. I’m having kombucha I’m having sauerkraut I’m juicing everyday. And they’re just getting worse. And I’m thinking yeah, no, you’re just getting worse. So it doesn’t mean that those things in large quantities are better for you have those sort of things in small quantities. And I always think that water is probably the best thing. Just get a sparkling mineral water one time. Get a kombucha the next we want to have a treat. A kombucha is fine, but treat it as a treat food. Not a normal food.

Murray Guest  19:19

Yeah, not an everyday food. Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. I’m also thinking about what I’ve learned over the years about listening to my body, and how powerful that’s been around my decision making or what it’s telling me or if I need to slow down. I’d love to know your perspective around how much we do and how much you see the power and listening to our body.

Sharon Hespe  19:44

Listening to your body tells you a lot. And I find when a patient first comes in and I ask them a series of questions. They have no idea what is going on in their body. But once we remove problematic foods, whether they be intolerances or SIBO foods or fructose foods or foods that are bad for the bacteria in your gut, people then start to listen to their body. And then they’ll have a food that they’re not supposed to have. And they can feel exactly what’s going on. So sometimes it needs for somebody to say to you, let’s look at things in a different way before they actually do stop and listen. And once they do, stop and listen, they go, Ah, now I can hear. Yeah, it’s like that whole, you can’t see the forest for the trees until someone points out that particular tree and what that will do for you, and then you Okay, now I can see.

Murray Guest  20:34

Yeah, that awareness now and then taking more notice of it as you consume different foods and what the reaction is that your body might be had this yeah, gotcha. Okay. Shaz I’d love to know, I mean, you’ve shared a couple of stories about yourself. But is there a story or some insights around someone you’ve helped, of course, mindful of, we don’t want to know their personal details. But I’d love to know the impact that you’ve had in some of the people you’ve worked with.

Sharon Hespe  21:00

Yeah, I think the biggest the biggest stories that I do see, come from young children, and from people that have terrible diarrhea. And often I have people that come to see me, and honestly, it’s sometimes it’s heartbreaking, and I almost feel myself in tears. Because for these people to get to work, they need to take medication, such as gastro stop, because if they don’t, they actually won’t make it to work to get to the toilet in time. So as often, it’s as simple as it might be an egg intolerance. It might be a fructose malabsorption, it just might be too much bad bacteria. And just a small change in diet makes a huge difference. You know, so with adults, I see that a lot. And I love that. But it’s with children. It’s so you will see a small child that will come to see with one of their parents, or their carers, and they tell me pain is terrible. You know, and actually, there is one great, great story that I will tell you about a child that once came to see me, there was a lady, she came to see me she had four children, and her youngest boy, was the one that was unwell. And I don’t like to test children. I like to if I do need to send the probiotics I will, I do prefer to set up let’s remove a couple of foods first. So we removed these two foods from this child’s diet. And the mother came back in I think was probably a month later. And she said Sharon, she said, Thank you so much. She said, I thought I just had a quiet child. She said the three of my boys were like, bouncing off the walls and the chairs and the counters like energetic children. And she said, My fourth child, she said, I just thought he was quite he used to like lay on the couch. He says sit around, he never had any energy. He didn’t used to do much. And she said now I realized he was just unwell. And because he was only two, he couldn’t tell his mother he was unwell. And as soon as you remove the food, she said, he just became what the other three children and he was. So things like that make such a huge change in people’s lives and and then his poor mother felt so guilty. She said, Oh my god, I thought I had this quiet child, but she said he’s been on welfare the whole two years of his life. So so that was that was a nice heartwarming story,

Murray Guest  23:20

That is beautiful. And your many, examples of the child but also the adults where you’re changing and working with them to change the quality of their life. So that they can live a better quality of life and a better day to day life. And as you said not have to fear going to work or wondering where the next toilet is, or worrying about even that I can imagine some people in that situation to have like a day to day management of what are they going to do and organizing their life around that.

Sharon Hespe  23:52

Yeah, often people’s day to day management is okay, I’m going from here to and I live in hurstville Grove in just south and city. So a person Saturday management, if they will go into North Sydney, they would know where every public toilet was on the way. That’s their way of managing it. Which I can understand if that’s the way that that’s the only way they can do it. But that is how people do manage their lives when they have something that’s happening like that, which it’s sad because it’s just not necessary.

Murray Guest  24:23

Yeah. And I can imagine then, if we’re taking that out of the day to day management, that then opens up attention in the consciousness to focus on other things and enjoy life much much better. Yeah, of course.

Sharon Hespe  24:36

Yeah, that’s right. It’s life changing. Yeah, getting your guts in great shape. is life changing for many people? Hmm.

Murray Guest  24:44

Is there a saying a question just popped into my head and that is, is there different needs? Like, generally that guts need through different life stages. So as we get older, do we need to think about things differently for our gut, or is it more on an individual level,

Sharon Hespe  25:01

It’s more of an individual level. But as we get older, we get we have less stomach acid in our gut. That is probably one of the things that happens when we get older. And often you see in elderly people, they just, they’ve been cooking for 70 years, and they just don’t want to cook anymore couldn’t be bothered. So they will tend to have tea and toast and things like that, which are not great for anybody. But it is more of an individual thing, rather than what you see for the over the lifespan.

Murray Guest  25:35

And there trends within families, you know, is that genetically, that that sort of influences some of those intolerances as well.

Sharon Hespe  25:45

Often, often you will see a parent and a child have the same, exactly the same intolerances. And often people will ring me and say, Look, I want to bring myself and my children and I say, pick the person that is the most unwell in your family. Let’s get them right. First, let’s remove the foods that showed to be a problem for that person. And keep everything else the same in the family. And you will find that that comes that that they will all come together as well. So yeah, it’s often something you see that does run in families. And often if a pregnant mother has poor gut health, that child will as well have poor gut health. Not always, but it’s a common common thing.

Murray Guest  26:25

Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Okay. Yeah. This has been fantastic Shaz, I love your passion for what you have for the work that you do and the people you are seeing. How’s it been? I just want to ask for the past couple of months with COVID. And a change of working. How’s that been working out for you as well?

Sharon Hespe  26:47

Look, it’s it’s been I’ve had to pivot and move online, like many people did any fact as naturopaths, we were told our association said, Look, you actually don’t have to go online, you can still see people if you want to. But my thoughts were and especially in the beginning, it was such a panic with that with the COVID. My thoughts were, I didn’t want to catch the Coronavirus and give it to a patient then to give it to their patient to to give it to the whole family, if that makes sense. So I said okay, I’ll just move online, like everybody else did. And it was great. But my biggest skill is empathy. So it’s quite difficult to speak to somebody on a screen and look at a camera and, and get a great understanding of what’s going on in their life. So it can be done, but it’s not as ideal as it is in person. But I do notice what I have started to see now is people that now have to go back to work. And they say, Oh, no, I have to get back on that train. Now. I better fix my gal has seen a host of people in this last couple of weeks, realizing that they actually do need to go back to an office environment. And the I’d better get my updates before I go back. So they don’t have to get off at work right. Get off at all these stations on the way to find the nearest toilet.

Murray Guest  28:05

Yeah, gotcha. You just reminded me of something I did want to talk about. And that is with their own immunity and gut health. What’s the relationship there?

Sharon Hespe  28:14

Look, with immunity and and gut health. It’s, there’s this huge, huge relationship because about 70% of your immunity is within your gut. So if you don’t get your gut in great shape, then it makes sense that your immune system also will not be in fantastic shape. So and like I discussed before, the gut barrier is suppose contains a whole bucketload of immune complexes and it’s a really complex situation. So I suppose the basics are if you want your immune system to stay in great shape, you need to keep your gut lining in great shape. It’s as simple as that.

Murray Guest  28:53

So whilst we thinking about in coming into winter in the southern hemisphere and the flu and obviously COVID-19 looking after our guard to increase our immunity is really important.

Sharon Hespe  29:07

It’s it’s super important and not only will it help your immune system, but you will feel fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah. And there are a few things like I said to people, like you know, try and limit your wheat and dairy intake to once a week. Try limit your alcohol content to two servings a week. Make sure you really really increase those immune system features such as zinc, so your seafood, your red meat, your nuts and seeds, your vitamin D foods like fatty fish and eggs. Your vitamin C foods, capsicum, strawberries, citrus are fantastic. So your vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin A food so all yellow, orange fruits and vegetables that pumpkin, carrot, oranges all have great amounts of vitamin A in there. You can get this great variety in your diet. It will really really help to keep your gut healthy.

Murray Guest  29:58

I think that’s such a beautiful list of the rainbow of colors that you mentioned earlier. And that variety. And if you’re seeing that, that rainbow, you’re seeing that variation on your plate. Not the beiges, you know, the browns, the whites. That’s going to obviously make a difference. Yeah. Yes, it does. That I think that’s such a great list of foods you just talk through, for people to think about and think about their color. But if someone’s listening, before we wrap up, shares, I want to know if there’s a little strategy that you know, would help everybody what would that be?

Sharon Hespe  30:45

Find out what’s going on your gut? Get tested, find out you need to Yeah, yeah. And you can guess. And you can put in this way you could put in that food and you can try this, you can try that. But don’t guess get a test?

Murray Guest  31:00

Oh, I like that. Okay, now, I want to ask you, you mentioned empathy a couple of times empathy, number one, in your top five strengths. And in the past, through a program, you found out your top five strengths. And with Tammy and I are working on that. I just want to check in because I love the impact strengths is made in people’s lives. What was the impact for you knowing those strengths for you.

Sharon Hespe  31:35

It makes you understand how you think about things and how you view the world. And and I know sometimes when you can over dial your strengths, that’s also not great, either, it’s important to understand, okay, this is what my strength is, this is what I’m good at. But also to remember that there are other people that have other strengths, and you need to work together. And it’s important to understand where your strengths lie. So you can use them responsibly and ethically. And understand what your weaknesses are. So you can work on improving those.

Murray Guest  32:13

Fantastic, I love how you’ve referenced your empathy a couple of times, and I can imagine that something you need to need to be conscious of in the way that you are empathetic, but also not getting fully involved in the emotions of your patients as well.

Sharon Hespe  32:29

 I must admit I’m quite good at that and what I say to patients, and this is one reason why I don’t do fertility work. And this might sound a bit strange, like, if I was to do fertility work, I would feel that it’s more responsibility to give you a baby, we’ve got work, it’s more responsibility to find out what’s going on to say to you, I need to do this, this and this and this. But when you decide to go home, and you decide that you’re not going to do that, that’s not my problem. I’ve given you all of the information. I’ve given you everything I can can. But you need to now take responsibility. And I will cut myself off there and say this is now your responsibility. I’m here to support you. But I need you to do something. I can’t do everything.

Murray Guest  33:12

Yeah, people need to do the work themselves, don’t they? 

Sharon Hespe  33:15

That’s correct yes. And that’s what I said, when I do that work. They feel fantastic. You know, people say to me, oh, thank you so much. Thank you. Let’s look, I’m just doing my job. You’ve done the work. And this is why you feel so good.

Murray Guest  33:29

I cut out dairy. And that was a challenge for me, particularly cheese. I love my cheese that I’d shifted my type of milk in my coffee some time ago. And also I cut out meat for some time, but I am eating some more meat there was what he was eating salmon and some other fishes might through that. But the way I felt was a lightness, I felt lighter. And my being. And I think there’s that, that heaviness with some foods and it doesn’t, it’s not just the heaviness in the gut. There was a heaviness over all my energy. So that lightness was something which I found, to be honest, the lightness I found addictive. I wanted to have more of that and feel like that and not feel the heaviness. 

Sharon Hespe  34:17

Yeah, that often that happens. Yes, yeah. 

Murray Guest  34:19

Yeah. Now, Sharon, Tell me please, what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Sharon Hespe  34:28

I think it’s inspiration to do things that are going to give you energy. 

Murray Guest  34:36

Love it. That’s such a beautiful, I think summary of what is all about for these conversations. And I think that anyone listening to this great chat with you, the good gut girl is going to get some inspiration to find out more about their gut and to feel that lightness and their energy and I love how you I talked about a new norm, not the norm that we have now that we get used to have that heaviness and changing that.

Sharon Hespe  35:06

That is so true, you know that the way that people can feel and do feel once they discover what’s going on, they got and they make those changes. And sometimes it’s as small as removing one or two foods and doing things like eating three meals a day stop snacking, just sometimes it just takes a small shift in things that no set of people there. So all that people sometimes do, I feel so silly should not know that. I say no, you know, you know what you know best. I know what I know best. And it’s up to me to share with you my knowledge so that you can learn how to get better yourself.

Murray Guest  35:43

Fantastic. Now, I love that nice a great way for us to wrap up. If someone wants to find out more about you and the work that you do and how you work with your patients where’s the best place to find you online. The best place is my website which is www dot the good girl.com.au I have quite a large Facebook group as well a quite a large following. And I post daily on Facebook and I’m in the middle at the moment of 50 tips in 50 days so I’ll be popping a gut tip a day up on Facebook so people can have a look on Instagram the good girl the underscore good underscore, underscore girl and just by email naturopathic Sharon his.com delay you so they some great links and make sure all those are in the show notes. And particularly I think that Facebook one where you’re sharing at the moment those 50 tips in 50 days for a good guy i think that’s that’s fantastic. So lots of information there for people. Make sure all those links are in the show notes and thank you again for your time and your knowledge. shares. This has been awesome. So thank you. I also want to encourage anyone that’s listening to this conversation with Sharon if you got something out of it and you want to share it online, I’d love you to do that. Please tag the good get go. And myself Murray Guest hashtag inspired energy because every time you share that everyone else gets to get your insight as well. So we we share the knowledge and inspiration. So shares Thanks again so much for your time and energy all the best for the rest of 2020 and for your health and keeping warm because it’s getting cold down here. But again, awesome chatting with you. 

Sharon Hespe  37:27

Thank you Murray was great to chat with you again too.

Episode 62 – Chris Dhu | Leadership through crisis

In this episode I chat with Chris Dhu about all things risk, response, learning agility and leadership.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Welcome Chris to the podcast, mate. I’m so glad you’re available to join me. I know you’re a busy man and busy is, I shouldn’t use that word because I know you don’t like that word very much.

Chris Dhu  00:13

Thanks, Murray, I’m very glad to be joining you for this podcast. Yes, I have, “my attention is stretched”, I refuse to say that I’m busy.

Murray Guest  00:23

I’m looking forward to the chat, beecause over the years, I’ve really enjoyed our discussions around leadership and culture, and also just the passion you have for and how important that is, in the work that you do as a leader in the business. Can I just ask first off, you know, it’s been a topsy turvy year. What’s your your reflection, you think might just on these past? It’s funny, I lose track of weeks? I know six weeks, eight weeks? What’s what’s your reflection from a leadership perspective? And from a personal perspective?

Chris Dhu  01:02

Ah, I’ll start from a leadership perspective, Murray, I think 2020 it’s not the 2020 anyone envisioned? Let’s just sight the bloody obvious. The great thing about 2020 is it’s given awesome people, particularly, the people in my immediate circle, but also in Australia, the chance to stand up. It’s a massive opportunity. And lately, leadership’s various, it’s quite easy when when times are easy. Yep, there’s been several individuals, both macro and micro level across Australia that are really set to the pount I’m prouder, then I’ve ever been to be Australian, I’m prouder then I ever have been to be a New South Wales of New South Welshen, so to speak. I’m proud to be associated with the groups that I do, given the 2020 request.

Murray Guest  01:57

I love that. And I remember years ago in my career, someone saying people remember how you behave when times are tough. And I remember, you know, going back 20 years when there was redundancies and organizational change, and how some people would respond, and as you said, some would would perform better and others not. What are some leadership attributes you think you’ve seen really shine in these last couple of months?

Chris Dhu  02:22

It really starts with the last quarter of 2019 by the State of New South Wales, specifically in the last quarter, of 2019 November/December facing some harrowing times and a lot of customers and constituency now of our business, faced some really tough times and it required a lot of people to stand up. A lot of people that have organizations and, and I was proud to be a part of that recovery effort and I was proud to be a part of it, of the way it was led, as well as very, very happy to fall in line and follow the leadership of the RFS and, and the way that that went through watching, particularly the northern part of the state, rally together in a time of need, we got five minutes to catch our breath over Christmas, and then the south of the state had the turn. Not that it should be referred to as a turn, but always, the focus shifted there. I watched all the organizations that were part of that recovery grow. The rapid learning, the learning agility, from quarter to quarter for 2019, to quarter 1 2020 was absolutely second and I was fantastic to be a part of. And certainly I was I was reflecting and learn off learn off each other very, very quickly. Then we went from a point at which we were we were facing a localized threat. And we were banding together. So it was requiring mass mobilization into a location and mass assistance to almost the counter offset in the way that we’re now in facing an invisible threat. And we’ve actually had to distance ourselves rather than respond in one location. So we’ve gone actually had people say to me on a rather face the fire, at least I knew where it was. Yeah, that’s an interesting insight. But watching the way people have taken the growth from what we what we experienced as a team, to then how we apply that to COVID It’s been fantastic.

Murray Guest  04:29

Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s funny that, uh, not funny. I shouldn’t say you funny, but it’s easy to forget how bad things were at the end of last year and the start of this year, because with COVID times seem to have changed so dramatically from that time, but it’s good to reflect on that. And the leadership and the teamwork that so many organizations pulled together to, as you said, serve the community. I like how you actually mentioned rapid learning because there was that right I’ve heard I remember you and I were talking about earlier this year, how quickly people adapted and learn what they need to do change on the fly, to keep delivering on the work they need to do.

Chris Dhu  05:14

He was a really good example of that. The RFS Commissioner Rob Rogers watching salaries, first press briefings from from the north coast fire responses. And then watching the growth relative highs, I think that’s a that’s a real representation of what was going on in everyone’s world. And I like the way I actually see what we’re doing with COVID as a state and as Australia. A form of pulling together as much as that doesn’t sound quite right. That we’re pulling together. But it looks different, doesn’t mean it feels different. And I think it’s once again, it’s fantastic. Shows how quickly we can reflect, learn, and grow and reflect, learn and grow, keep going around that cycle. Every day is different. And what it builds is agility and responsibility, which particular is COVID code, it’s not going away, we were now preparing ourselves for ourselves for potential waves type approach on on off and that sort of stuff. agility is going to be the most important thing. And certainly, when I talk about agility, agility, and leadership is how we’re going to tackle that.

Murray Guest  06:29

Yeah. When you say leadership, I think not just leaders that have titles, but that’s self leadership and leadership at all levels.

Chris Dhu  06:37

And in all directions, leadership appears. Leadership Up, down, left, right. It’s incredibly important.

Murray Guest  06:44

Yeah, well, I may have lost track of time, but I think it must have been back around January, when you were down the south coast and how you were following the direction of the leadership of a whole range of different people doesn’t matter what level they are in the business, because that’s what was needed.

Chris Dhu  07:01

Yeah, that was quite interesting. I think this if I’m, if I’m right, and calling out the specific example, Murray, a member of I hit up, hit up the fleet function for essential energy. And as part of our for our bushfire response, we actually reorganized our structure as such, so that members of the team became hub response hub leaders. And yeah, I actually wound up being a response hub team member and reporting to someone that had traditionally reported to me which, obviously a really unique situation and a test of the strength of the team, that we’re able to understand that respected. Pay homage, to know why it’s there. And knowing that we’re committed to a common purpose, a common vision makes a massive, massive difference in that space. So yeah, it was a really cool, a really cool example of, of leadership, leadership agility, and ability, ability to respond

Murray Guest  08:00

Yeah, and I’m just reflecting on ego, and just throwing that out there that in those times, you can’t have an ego that’s going to get in the way of that agility. If your egos stuck in there, I need to be the leader, I need to be right, I need to be in control. That’s not going to work in that situation at all, is it?

Chris Dhu  08:19

No, not at all. And it’s its ego, ego or sense of self is, is can be quite destructive at times, at times, it can be productive as well, when it can be quite destructive when it’s not consistent with purpose. And that’s, the piece that’s really important there that the purpose of us conducting the response operations in the bush in the bushfire ravaged zones was that our customers were, you know, dire time of need, and we were there to provide the support. So having that laser light focus to that purpose, putting all the other stuff to the side and working together as a team. That’s, where that ego, all of a sudden slips away, I don’t like saying ego as a negative term if ego is aligned to that purpose, and it can actually be quite helpful. If it’s aligned with that purpose. If it’s, if it’s called a different intent or a different objective, then absolutely, that’s that’s distracting that needs to be that needs to be talked about. That’s a courageous conversation that needs to be.

Murray Guest  09:22

Yeah. You’re actually bringing to my awareness through that process and that support that you and the team went through how when there is a clear purpose, and we’re aligned in that purpose, how powerful that is. And a crisis and emergencies emergency situation gives you that. And then it’s about how do we take that to the day to day work? To make sure we are aligned to that purpose, day in day out?

Chris Dhu  09:51

Yeah, I think in that in that situation, and no different to COVID what we’re going through right now. It’s you can touch and feel and hold it. It’s a purpose. We’ve got laser-like focus on the purpose, because it’s real, it’s tangible. It’s relatable. That’s the challenge for anyone, you know, in senior leadership role as a new leader in a role is quite often beat the company, smaller companies, Every company has some form of vision, objective and purpose. And it’s always written iand clearly, you know, this is something I’m quite passionate about. It’s about how is that real for you? How’s that? how those words resonate with you? And how they, how they look and feel in your world? And are they consistent with your values. And that would be a big conversation that needs to be had. As soon as it becomes real, you can believe in it, and you can leave it anything less than it’s inauthentic. And and essentially, at that point in time, your visceral feeling a state of which I would hide you, or an idea that it might not be in the best and may not be leveraging your maximum potential but but unlocking that is really hard. I think the advantage of events such as bushfires and COVID, is it brings it into real Neato focus, which makes it easy to relate to but you’re right, doing it on a daily basis with a with a with a corporatized. Vision is difficult. That doesn’t mean we run away from it means we try hard.

Murray Guest  11:18

Yeah, yep. Now I made a comment to my wife the other day, I was thinking about your business and some similar businesses. And what I said was, I said that the businesses I work with, that seem to manage risk day in day out, seem to have responded better to COVID. So in my my work, I work with, you know, a whole range of different companies. And it seems like those ones that have a better risk understanding has a management perception and how they will go after that have responded better to COVID. What’s your thoughts on that one?

Chris Dhu  11:58

I think that’s a really good observation, Murray. And I think we could we could talk about this for an hour on risk. Obviously, I have a background in asset management. So risk management is something I’m really okay with. And without sounding like a broken record, I think this goes back to that tangibility again, particularly when Australia being nice working society that absolutely values worker health and worker wellbeing, which I’m incredibly proud to be a part of safety, in particular physical safety is really well understood. Which means things like risk perception, Hazard management, Hazard awareness, Hazard control, are really easy to talk about. It’s, I find it really interesting that the best, the companies that are really good at managing risk are quite often successful in their own right. And I can call that a number that, no, if you’re really good at managing risk, you’ll manage financial risks, social risk, cyber risk, sovereign risk, political risk, all in the same way that as you will physical risk. Having a really good understanding of what is important. So what actually, or actually say that the companies that are really good at managing risk, and particularly hazard awareness, perception and management, are the ones that are going to prosper and are prospering through COVID they tend to be the ones that see the opportunity and and see the see the the opportunity to pivot delivery models, for example, having good conversation with a friend the other day, and we talked about COVID. And the particular business he was he was part of he said, You know, COVID has actually not forced us to change our strategy. Our strategy hasn’t changed strategy of, of community and environment, which is what they’re in is the same, our delivery models change. So that’s actually because it’s not a strategy change. It’s a delivery pivot that does not require a structural change in our business doesn’t we’re managing that this way versus a business that is pivoting to a new product, which is absurd. Absolutely. Strategy change. Now we’re talking about ground up granite build their businesses that I see will go well, and are going well continue to go Well, I think the your point around physical high risk, high risk industrial businesses, we have we have an advantage, quite simply because we’ve we’ve had to get we’ve had a good because the the half life of impact from poor safety performance is absolutely it’s small, you have to be able to manage it really quickly, really well, really succinctly. That’s where so I think that that hazard management approach to short term hazard management is much better with those with those businesses, which is what’s coming to the fore.

Murray Guest  14:47

And I also think about managing a hazard you can’t see is part of the business that you do that you’re involved with. And we’ve got another one right now in this pandemic Yes, yes, the hidden or developing hidden or developing hazard management is always really interesting.

Chris Dhu  15:08

And we’ve actually been having a lot of conversations around this around trying to manage a hazard. We don’t have a real great handle on the likelihood we understand the consequences, but we’re not quite sure of the likelihood. And we’re now in a situation where we’re having to trade off some of that against existing risks. In my particular space or a managed fleet. We’re talking recently about social distancing, is there? Absolutely, there’s a fantastic control to prevent contagion of COVID. And that turning into the disease. One of the potential controls that was spoken with me about was single occupants in motor vehicles on the face very, very good as a risk control, definitely gonna control the spread of contagion. However, we also know that the most dangerous activity in the Australian workplace is driving motor vehicles. So in our increasing our exposure there, so we had a really interesting conversation around What’s that? What’s the arbitrage or the risk? If we’re going to take on more? Can we manage that? Because by introducing a control to control contagion, we’re actually eroding our control and road safety. So we need to consciously manage the bias. That’s the advantage that companies in industrialized settings have in this situation.

Murray Guest  16:29

Yeah, yeah, that’s, uh, yeah, I think that perspective of, Okay, we’re going to implement a control. And let’s think about what the impact of that control is. And does that introduce greater risk of flow on effect, the ripple effect, that may be an organization’s that’s not used to doing that would be unaware of. 

Chris Dhu  16:49

And this is where leadership starts to starts to move into risk management in the way that the world is in a vacuum. With that particular example, there is going to be situations where it makes sense to single person operate motor vehicles, because we will be able to control the existing risk in another way. However, that’s not going to be applicable everywhere. And this is where the leadership comes in that we need. We need people that are committed to our, to our vision, to our purpose, understand our values, understand what we’re trying to achieve. So we can make really great decisions on the fly in the moment that address the specifics and the contextual setting. Because the world isn’t a vacuum. Yeah, that risk leadership is sort of arrived. That’s a term that maybe it should be can see, here’s something that I think that’s the advantage of working in those in those high risk environments is much more comfortable in making those decisions and balancing, likelihood, consequences, outcomes and controls.

Murray Guest  17:56

So Mike, tell me, what’s something out of COVID-19. And the changes to ways of working that you want to make sure continues going forward?

Chris Dhu  18:09

I’ve been asked this question a couple of times, right. There’s 1000s and 1000s of micro things, which is a good way of avoiding that question. The I’ve, for quite some time, I am quite innovative, I do like to move around. I’m quite social. I do I do pride myself on being very mobile, hyper mobile, to use a term. That’s even myself, I’ve found I’ve had to click that for COVID It’s ironic that we’re a stay at home. We’re a stay at home as a principal and here I’m talking about being more mobile. It’s quite ironic, but I think being more agile is an in that being able to work is what we do not where we are is the piece that I’d love to see a part of it. The other the other piece, I think, is that now more than ever, I’ve never been a massive fan of the term work life balance. Primarily because I’m conscious that me saying that comes across quite negative. The reason I, let me turn that constructive. The reason I’m not I’m not happy with work life balance is because it immediately puts the two at odds. Which is, it essentially introduces a silo that doesn’t need to be there, you know, so me and my partner are talking about going through some changes now. And we’re talking about one of the things that particularly for me, that work is me is intellectual stimulus. And if I lose that, that’s going to that’s going to cause us a significant heart ache because I’m going to turn that intellectual knee towards our life may be different. So I think from that perspective, it’s actually blurred that line. It’s made it so blurry that it’s better I like that. Now we’re talking about life and power. What we do is work part of what we do is leisure part of what we do is sleep and all of a sudden, we’re getting better at actually making it homogenous.

Murray Guest  20:10

I agree with you because I feel like it that old saying, and we’re not the only one saying it, that work life balance is saying your life happens outside of work. And work is this thing. You have to, you know, begrudgingly do day in day out. And you know, thank God, it’s Friday, you’ve got it done. And then you can live your life, which that’s no way to live the other five days of the week.

Chris Dhu  20:33

Absolutely. And I think its really cool, especially having this conversation is a really deep reflective conversation with some of my team earlier this week, around alignment, your alignment to my wife, and Murray, you’ve heard me say I say this, I join a purpose, I don’t join a company. That’s, that’s my overwhelming motto. And we’re talking around the way when someone’s really committed to a purpose. And, and where it’s really hard, but having that extrinsic motivation, and we’re committed to a purpose. And when someone gets really committed, they can actually wind up starting to sacrifice some of their own welfare, wellness, welfare, whatever, financial could be anything. That’s actually that’s actually a sign of someone burning white hot. And it’s a it’s a short pass. So we’re having a really good conversation around how do we balance the intrinsic or self worth for self growth against the greater the greater girdle the extrinsic purpose, making sure, if it’s, if it’s 100% intrinsic, that’s someone that’s that’s likely got a value set that’s misaligned with the team or the company. If it’s someone that’s overly community company, then they’re likely going to burn white hot, and there may be some some damage being done that we’re unaware of this sort of if you can imagine as a spectrum of 100 to zero somewhere in the middle is the right answer. And yeah, and it’s our job as leaders to make sure that we’re balancing that so that we get a long term so that you know, they could the career, the the employee lifecycle is maximized, you know, that that’s the piece. So it’s a really cool discussion. And I think, what’s happening COVID will allow us to do that better, because now we’re not talking about business and personal work and life being separate, separate things that are in constant competition.

Murray Guest  22:20

I am seeing that, and I’m seeing that how people are thinking about people, again, as people not that they weren’t before, but it’s just come to the fore even more, you know, you’ve got people having zoom calls and online meetings, inviting people to their house in ways that they hadn’t before. And there’s this openness, and they are, you’re a real person, I want to make sure that you’re okay, going forward, and I care about you. And I think you’re right, it sort of brought that out even stronger, which is really powerful.

Chris Dhu  22:53

Yeah it’s splendid, the support network that’s around employee. That’s around a friend. Yeah, I think of, I now know, the support network around some of my best friends a lot better than I say, friend as colleague because to me, the word friend and colleague isn’t changeable. It’s not, there’s not so I now know, their support network. I knew the professional support network. Now I know the home support network a lot better. And we’re more open about it is just more open. It’s ironic that we’re more open about it. When we’re socially separated, together, it’s sort of counterintuitive, but it’s really great.

Murray Guest  23:32

Yeah, and I mean, I was asking you what you what you think is one of the good things out of COVID to continue. And I love what you’ve talked about with agility and that flexibility and that mobility. I’m thinking also about if I had another word that hopefully rhymes is vulnerability. I think that that has increased through this process, that openness.

Chris Dhu  23:54

Yeah, and and it builds trust. That’s the piece. That’s the piece there that that we talk we talk about humans and ultimately humans are fallible and ironically an expert is someone that’s, that’s just made collective certifies in a particular field. Yet we find it really hard to talk about them. And certainly that’s, that’s something that I feel we, through COVID we’ve gotten better at which has allowed us to build better levels of trust. That’s not not happening everywhere. But it certainly is moving in the right direction. And that would be my only caution with this topic is we don’t want to wind up in a situation where we have pockets of excellence. We need to make sure that the virtual rooms that this this creative growth is happening are connected, if that makes sense. And the virtual rooms are now now even less visible. Ifthat make sense? Youqnd I could be talking on on this particular zoom call and then after this zoom call you can be talking to someone in Western Australia could be talking to someone in New Zealand or somewhere in different parts of the world.

Murray Guest  25:05

Yep. 

Chris Dhu  25:06

We haven’t visibly left. So making that would go on in the caution with this with the with the increase in understanding of each other the increase the improving, or the increasing vulnerability, the increase improving trust, making sure that that’s actually across to the best extent we can across the board and not areas of, of hyper growth that are inadvertently leaving other areas behind. Because when we do come back together, and whatever the new normal is, as much as that’s the new normal, I don’t think is ever going to be settled. Yeah, that could be quite the stock, the stock sort of reality, restart of social dynamics and will require shock to the system. So let’s make sure we do that really smart.

Murray Guest  25:54

Yeah, and I’m actually thinking how important it is around the alignment of leaders. So that there is that alignment about how we are working now and what that looks like going forward. So that communication, that understanding that agreement, or in that alignment, so that that brings along a level of understanding and implementation in whatever that new normal looks like.

Chris Dhu  26:20

Alignment of leaders is really interesting, outside of behavioural alignment, so beliefs, attitudes, behaviors, alignment, that should absolutely be something we’re working on every single day and, having courageous conversations if it’s not there, because the problem certainly doesn’t get better with age. Or what I’m seeing is there’s a lot better alignment around our use of our use of attention and I called it out at the start, I’m not a massive fan of the word busy. And there’s a bit of contextual setting required here. Take it give it time is a really, really easy thing to measure, arguably one of the easiest metrics in the world and that makes that things are easy to measure tend to get measured. And ironically, some of the software platforms that we use consistently in business, Ie outlook are designed to be very sticky, they make it make it feels good to manage your time and feels like we’re achieving something. I’m also consciously aware that if I take give it give it time, 10 hours, or 10 hour block, for example, I don’t have 10 hours of attention, I can’t be present for 10 hours, I’m gonna weigh in, in and out and so very conscious with where I place my attention. And I’m very conscious whenever I’m sort of looking at how my day is gonna play out, for example, this this particular zone, very high intellectual load, very high attention requirement. The activities I’m doing in the side of that, I would deliberately, deliberately make sure therefore information or I’ll be clear with people that I’m within virtual rooms. In this case, I’m just coming out of a really intense session. So I’m here and I’m cool to have a light chat but lets park any heavy stuff.

Murray Guest  28:06

I hope this isn’t too heavy for you.

Chris Dhu  28:08

It’s enjoyble, it’s enjoyable. But I think that’s that’s the piece that’s gonna be really interesting, as we as we graph back to hearing locations, again, is how do we better manage the tension, because time is a really poor proxy for and I think this has been given that there’s been some level of standardization, ie we’re all looking at a camera or a monitor at the moment. We’ve essentially sat established a control. So now everyone’s having to think a little bit more about attention and how it relates to time. Because we’re all not moving. We’re all now doing largely same activities sitting in chair looking, standing looking. It’d be really interesting to see how that conversation evolves, as we move back into office environments, and sorry, co located situations. How do we how do we maintain that focus of, of let’s not manage time anymore? Let’s manage our attention and refining  our attention to

Murray Guest  29:05

Yeah, and I think you’ve mentioned courageous conversations a couple of times. And I like to think they are happening more at the moment. People are having these conversations because they need to, and that they continue in the new world, where it’s like, okay, where did where’s the attention at? Where is it not? And having that, and not just slipping back into old habits, which weren’t serving was very time measured.

Chris Dhu  29:31

I think you and I have discussed the the, the book, it’s it’s The Manager, it’s and it’s its posture of managers to coaches, I think is a term I have the terminology wrong.

Murray Guest  29:45

No you’re spot on. Yep.

Chris Dhu  29:46

The I think there’s a really there’s a really, when we hear the term managers to coaches really easy to go towards coaches being highly, highly motivated, highly motivating individual and that absolutely, it’s true. I think of the best coaches that I’ve worked for both in a professional setting personal and sporting settings. They are very motivational individuals, and they draw their motivation from absolutely, absolutely a commitment to a higher purpose, a vision, a objective is forging code, it might be the winning of something, for example, in a personal setting, it might be some sort of life life goal. A really important piece of that of being inspirational and demonstrating commitment to undying purpose for what a better way is to show and to absolutely show when an expectation isn’t met. And to make sure that that’s clear. That that’s really important to do. And it’s something that I think the professional world or use the word I think they’re with intent think your professional world has grappled with a lot, too, we tend to jump straight towards transactional management, ie X amount of widgets per hour, as opposed to behavioral and belief type management. Yeah, really kind of see that stay, to stay. Because at the end of the day, if we if we’re managing, we can’t act our way into a belief we can’t act our way into an attitude that absolutely has to be intrinsic can call. That’s I’m really keen to say that particularly stay into the into the New World, we’ve had to transition without with a with a new operating model. We’re now there’s a lot less colocation, there’s a lot less oversight. So we’re now relying on people’s intrinsic motivation. A lot more. Yeah, we’re now realizing we have to manage it, we have to own it, we have to understand we have to talk about that. So we need to transition that back to the work environment, when the transactional measures can be done better. That doesn’t mean we go back to them, if that makes sense. Literally, like the whole times easier to measure, therefore it gets measured.

Murray Guest  31:59

Yeah, of course. The paper I just want to add to this element, too, is we talk about manager to coach, I like people to think about coach like, so if you think about the attributes and the behaviors of a coach, asking questions, Unlocking Potential being really present, helping someone support their development. I think that’s what this is about, too. So how to managers leaders do more of that. And bring those ways of working and ways of being that a coach does into their management practice.

Chris Dhu  32:34

Yeah, yeah, I think and as far as that coach, like, could also add the the road mapping types here, I want to use Word planning, but that that forward looking, certainly conversation that we’re having a lot within within the leadership team that I’m a member of at moment is around where we’re now transitioning into winter, in Australia. We’re talking Yeah, we’re now seeing shorter days, we’re seeing colder weather that has a significant impact year on year, on top of influenza and everything else that comes with that. I see a significant mental impact year on year. That means it’s going to be amplified this year. So what the one, the one thing we do have in our at our disposal now is time, and we must use it wisely. Because if we don’t, once again, this probably isn’t gonna give it this probably isn’t gonna get better with it. So let’s talk about now let’s make sure we’ve got active strategies. Now that strategy may just be as simple as raising a conversation allowing people giving the people the freedom within a framework to actually solve it. Or it could be something more didactic or transactional I don’t know, but at least important things we start the conversation. And to me, that’s, that’s a coach’s role. That’s that piece that we need to be asking the right questions to make sure that we’re setting up setting up for success. Yeah. And equally, you know, that requires a really open and transparent relationship with with the teams that if we’re seeing something doesn’t quite sound right for them quite as well, right? Hey, this good chimes let’s rise. And let’s let’s talk about

Murray Guest  34:14

Now I want to just wrap that up, because want to move on to some other topic. But I think what you’re also reminding me of something I’ve picked up in the positive change through COVID-19. And that’s been a more frequent focus communication, with leaders with teams, where previously it might have been Let’s wait for a period of time to have a meeting and then we’ll discuss it but where what I’m seeing from the good leadership practices, we’re talking more frequently more focused, and people find that really valuable. So it’s giving that that more regular and frequent conversation.

Chris Dhu  34:53

Yeah, and old ads that no more frequent and more focus but also more topical, as well. Now saying, particularly I think of mine, my world, I can now I can now attend a meeting in three or four different parts of New South Wales, with three or four different teams in rapid succession where historically, I would have relied on being there in person, potentially. 

Murray Guest  35:20

Yeah, gotcha.

Chris Dhu  35:20

That’s that that means that I can now deliver a much more focused conversation because I’m now walking from one team or silo walking from one team to another, and delivering a very focused message because I’m still on that topic. But it’s also a topical message, I’m able to get that information to to that team faster. So that half life of communications really should slow down. So get information out as quickly as possible.

Murray Guest  35:57

Yeah. All right. I’m going to try something with you. Here we go. Some rapid fire questions. 

Chris Dhu  36:03

Okay. 

Murray Guest  36:04

Let’s see how you go. What is values based leadership?

Chris Dhu  36:11

Values based leadership is commitment to a common purpose and alignment of personal and extrinsic goes.

Murray Guest  36:20

Ooh, you’ve done well, to answer that one in such a short fashion, because I know how passionate you are about values. 

Chris Dhu  36:26

You remember so? 

Murray Guest  36:28

Fantastic. Now, tell me when you say and I’ve heard this quote from you before? I don’t know what report I need till I see it. Tell me what that one means. 

Chris Dhu  36:41

Yeah, reporting is really, really interesting in so many different ways. I’m sort of answer your question with an example of a brief period of my career where I spent some time in a in a BA role. And I was I was taught by a very good friend of mine, that a really good bi one, once again, to go back to values based leadership understands, understands what needs to be done, it acts in a very ethical way ethical and aligned to, to the objective to the common objective. That means the VA can quite often understand what needs to be done, and how to get there. And for exactly, yeah, that could in this particular situation, I was doing some stuff around maintenance, maintenance analytics, and there was some things that didn’t quite seem right. For example, sugar compliance was was the standard deviation to compliance was incredibly narrow, which, you know, if you think of a traditional maintenance managers perspective, you know, the maintenance manager is likely likely to thumbs up, to thumbs up moving forward type thing, as in that roles are bi and having experienced, you know, minus managers role was actually seen. That doesn’t sound right. We need more Dean. As a result, by acting with that with values and ethically ethically aligned behavior, I was actually I will try and cover some some anomalies in which way that so there was, there was ways we could manage better manage the department better. And I was able to present that to the maintenance manager and say, Hey, I know, I know, the headline number looks okay. But there’s some stuff in here that we can do better. Now that that particular maintenance manager at that point in time came to the assault, but didn’t even know they’d say that. Yeah, gotcha. That in three years, you think of that, that’s where a statistician, a statistician starts to make that step into into that analyst will the leadership world, we’re able to improve that departments performance. And what what that actually short story, what that actually uncovered was, was some stuff around system, the system was very, very hard to use. And so as a result, attainment team and figured out ways to use it, that that actually will enable them to deliver what they needed on a daily basis. But it didn’t, it didn’t actually, it didn’t help the engineering team actually improve the assets while maintaining. So it turned out it was actually a system driving behavior rather than behavior driving system. So but I think if if we had if we had someone in that role that had basically delivered on the requirement of the maintenance manager, which was I need to see show your compliance data improve, it would have never happened. Yeah. And so that’s where that saying comes from. And it’s amazing how often you when I sit with my own team, and we might start with a question, and it might be Yeah. What’s our What’s our risk profile in relation to incident incidents involving crimes? That might be the question and that could take you down 25 different reporting ones, which which reporting line you go down is really important and that’s heavily recorded. On one side.

Murray Guest  40:01

So first bit of feedback, rapid fire questions are out the window. And that’s, that’s okay. Because I love it when you give me this, this data, this information is insight. And I love how you linked the BA role and I don’t know what report I need to I set back to values based leadership and creating a culture of values love and trust. Because as a BA, you couldn’t have done that if you were trusted and empowered.

Chris Dhu  40:29

And absolutely in this this, trust and trust is such an important word and is it’s commonly used, seldom understood would be, would be the way I’d term trust that it had trust and trust has to be it’s obviously a genuine, genuine attribute. And if you’ve got it, it’s just the glue that makes things work. And you don’t know, don’t know why things are working, but they just work. And then when it’s not there, it just feels like it feels like a big gearbox. And none of that none of the gears are sticking together, you know, it’s just grinding all day long. That’s what it feels like that that particular that particular example that team that I was a part of. We we had we enjoyed fantastic success. But when I’m when I think back to town with a smile on my face. Now when I think back to that time, the success we enjoyed wasn’t in the form of financial returns to the business or anything, anything of that nature, the success we enjoyed was actually working more by having a really trusting and open relationship and having that that framework and the freedom to work within Tyler, it drove up all of our engagement, we were actually committed to the to the common theme we were there to do. And as a result, we’re all highly engaged. We all enjoyed working with each other things just started to click and people are removed at a time we would have people come and speak to us and say, Oh, you know how it has it’s working. So well. Why do you think this works? so well? And none of us would answer the question was as an artist, and I think that comes back to that trust base was knowing what I know now or my answer would have been?

Murray Guest  42:08

Yeah, yeah. Great. I’m going to give you another test, though, on the rapid fire questions, mate, where we’ve got a little little bit more time. So my question is around, if you could articulate the role of leadership, and successful culture transformation. If you could pass on, you know, a couple of tips, let’s just say two tips to someone to a leader who’s listening to the podcast, if you really want to lock in cultural, cultural transformation. You know, what, what would you say those key tips for a leader? Well, I’m trying to think of two, you can go one or 50.

Chris Dhu  42:58

Easily 50. The first one would be don’t understate it, I just don’t understate it. The transformations that I’ve been involved with, it’s very easy to get caught up in the strategy development. Really easy to for that to happen. And largely because strategy development is is very rewarding, equally for myself. So it’s a bit of self feedback when you get caught up here as well. We’ve all heard we’ve all heard the sayings in culture eats strategy for breakfast is one of the most common ones. Once again, it’s around my ear not real for you. It’s when we’re when we’re looking at a strategy and we’re saying, Hey, we want to go, we want to we want to head in this direction. We want to take this hill really sit down and understand. Okay, well, what is a cool quote, culture look like to take that hill? And obviously there’s going to be there’s going to be overarching, which is what we all need to know why we’re doing it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I would add to that, every individual needs to know why taking the hills important for them as well, that goes to that, that piece around intrinsic extrinsic motivation. So it’s a why, why for me, type thing. And then there’s all the other little pieces that go around it. What are we, if we, if we’re aiming to increase our cadence, for example, to go to go after that goal in the short term? What’s the backside of that require it we can’t sustainably increase cadence unless we make structural meaningful change. If we if we increase our cadence and we don’t make change, all we’re doing is driving everything harder and driving everything harder. Obviously, shaunc shortens the life cycle. So when you start talking about doing that with humans, obviously engagement falls off and return rates for the meaningful measures going the wrong direction. So making it Real making the car what when? How does the cultural I personally I like to start with a bit of a bit of discussion dialogue, type stuff with with key key team members, key stakeholders, I like to use the toy, my go to tool is a cultural web, I’ll put that up on a wall with a whole bunch of sticky notes. And so right over there with our rituals for examining its rituals, control structures is one of them. Routines is another symbols isn’t a sticky note, or it’s a symbol. So we want to say, Yeah, for example, if we’re, if if we’re say cleaning, a large turnaround of an industrial facility, or structure might be very important for that, because that’s a critical requirement. When you’re running your turnaround, we’re going to structure with hard with hard start and finish type things. Or we might have hard roll guides. That’s an important symbol, for example, that that start, you start to pick up all these all these things in touch and hold my starter if they can’t, is that consistent with the culture or build a culture? If they’re if they’re inconsistent with the culture, they wrote it? So that’s a really cool tool, right? And then, and then you start to refine that down into into a brand. Yeah, I’d say brand is probably better terms for that. But what are we who are we in certainly in the team that I’m leading now, we sell on the three words of resourcefulness, initiative, and professionalism. That’s what we are. So, for example, if you think of a, if you think of a routine, think of a ritual for professionalism, it may be preserved, but we don’t move our leadership team timeslots, we leave them where they are. And if we can’t, if we can’t make it for whatever reason, we provide a really good, it’s mutually shared accountability, we provide a really good reason to the entire team, not the leader to the entire team on why and we do that using different communication methods. But that’s, that’s important, because we are professional.

Murray Guest  46:59

And links back to your point earlier about, then they’re not just words, what do they actually look like? How do we how do we know how we’re going to hold each other mutually accountable? What are those behaviors that go with it? Mate, I’m mindful of our time. That’s, you know, getting close to 50 minutes has been fantastic. And we haven’t even touched on strengths, something I’m passionate about. And I know you are. So that’ll be conversation number two, I’d say. 

Chris Dhu  47:24

Very good. 

Murray Guest  47:25

Plus a bunch of other stuff I’m sure we could talk about. I want to thank you, mate. Thank you so much for your openness, your insight, the the perspective you bring to leadership and culture, and even the openness and sharing upfront around the experiences you’ve had in the past, you know, six months as a team and a business, and what that’s been like, and what’s that shown and some of those lessons out of that. So I know that was really valuable for everyone listening. So thank you so much. Thanks for thanks for the opportunity. And I look forward to continuing the conversation. We will now you can’t get away with giving me your definition of inspired energy. You have given me one beforehand, which are going to be honest, I absolutely love it. But I’ll put you on the spot and see if you can remember what you said or what what comes to mind right now.

Chris Dhu  48:16

In the spirit of openness and honesty, I can’t remember what I said the first time inspired energy. I was immediately on the spot right now and say inspired energy. It’s a form of energy that’s unlocked. It’s unlocked by commitment to a greater purpose. And it’s an apparent obviously it has the purpose has to be aligned with your own with your own personal values and your own personal goals.

Murray Guest  48:50

That’s pretty spot on to what you said. 

Chris Dhu  48:55

Consistent.

Murray Guest  48:56

That is it consistent it is. Again, thanks so much. Can I just ask anyone listening, If you got something out of this conversation, don’t hesitate to share it online. We’d love to know what you found out of this. We feel like we’ve covered a lot lots of great insights from Chris from his leadership, perspective and, and journey and, again, Chris, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time, mate. Keep well keep healthy and I’ll talk to you soon. 

Chris Dhu  49:21

Thanks mate.

Episode 61 – Aaron Kearney | Journalist & Director of AKS Media

In this episode I chat with Aaron Kearney, a multi-award-winning broadcaster, photo-journalist, and sports commentator. The Director of AKS Media International, Aaron is in demand across the globe for his experience in broadcasting, commentary, storytelling and innovation.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

So Aaron, welcome to the podcast. I am excited to be chatting to you today. My memory of you goes back a long way, early 90s watching you cover my brother’s rally stories on sport on prime. And then over the years, we’ve connected a range of times and of course, they’re being listened to you on the ABC and now you’ve moved on to doing different things, mate, how are you?

Aaron Kearney  00:28

The answer to that changes almost on a minute by minute basis at the moment, but I don’t think I’m Robinson Crusoe there. I think everybody at the moment, is a short walk from a rooster to a feather duster and back again. But no, I’m great. And actually, for all of the challenges, and there have been many in recent times on it’s given me lots of cause for celebration and lots of cause for calibrating how fortunate my circumstances are, you know, I wouldn’t want to be an eighty year old woman in a fifth floor walk up in northern Italy right now put it that way.

Murray Guest  01:06

Yeah, well, I think that we were just talking off air before we started the podcast about that gratitude and perspective. And that’s something that I’ve certainly, I’d like to have gained more of this year, and the clients I work with, they’re talking about that as well. And appreciating those little things in life. So for you, and this past couple of, you know, months actually feels like years. I don’t know how long it’s been

Aaron Kearney  01:28

Same sort of thing the other day saying, I can’t believe how young I look in photos from this morning. Yeah, so that

Murray Guest  01:39

it is a bit like that. Tony told me on your you know, your gratitude list or perspective list at the moment? What’s at the top, what are you really appreciating at the moment?

Aaron Kearney  01:47

Yeah, it’s interesting that you say that, because at least part of the lockdown experience has been, I feel like me personally. And as a family. In some ways, we’ve been training for this in a perverse way. In, for example, each night, when we sit around the table, we actively have, we go around the table and do somebody who’s in my thoughts and something that I’m thankful for. And recently, we’ve added in a success that I had today, because of its excesses might have been a bit feeling public. So we’ve done that as, as a ritual. And it is really a ritual. I mean, obviously, the five year old begins a certain kind of answer and, but what it does is it momentarily makes you get out of yourself and the business of life and actually take a drone I view with only for 30 seconds. And so we’ve done that system, medically over time. And now it suddenly feels really important and really functional and whatever. And so look, without diving too deep on philosophy too early in our chat, I live my life with a series of benchmarks. And I look at my imaginary perfect scenario, and my imaginary horror scenario. And if I do that, I’m generally running about an eight and a half or a nine out of 10 at any given point. And that remains true even in the challenging circumstances. So I’m very lucky to live in Australia, both practically, you know, we have more sunshine, and it’s easier to socially distance, and there’s state recreation area, you know, 500 meters from my home, all of those sorts of things. And then, you know, there’s the the freedom that we have here, there’s all of those sorts of things. The people who are locked down with I’m quite fond of everybody’s experience.

Murray Guest  03:54

Yeah. 

Aaron Kearney  03:55

And you know, and I am healthy. And on some level, I’m afraid of COVID. But as with all things in life, I feel like I’ve, I’ve given myself the best chance of surviving it if it comes my way. So, I mean, I’m thankful on every single level.

Murray Guest  04:13

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think this is very similar party self appreciation, and even that preparation for right now. As a family, we have been connecting more over dinner, and we used to play the alphabet game every night and different things. We’ve started topic jar. So topic jar is at night, which everyone throws a piece of paper with one topic in it into the jar, and then we draw one out and then you’ve got a week to prepare and then present that back to the family. And we’ve had a whole range of topics from why mullets are cool through to black holes and where do they come from? So it’s like a big range. But again, it’s that connection with family, which, you know, is one of those little things I think that I’m hearing a lot of people really appreciating right now and and it Like you, I’m happy with who I’m connected with and, and within the, in the home. Yeah. Um, so is there anything you’re missing?

Aaron Kearney  05:11

Ah, yeah, I mean, I miss travel my entire life was travel in 2019, I had, arguably the best and most successful year of my life, I worked in 22 countries, I went to Oxford, I went to a world cup, we created all sorts of history that I had that I had, I knew 2020 was not going to be able to top 2019 I didn’t think it would get so far under the bar of 2019. So, um, you know, I miss my life, I had a really, really good life. And it doesn’t mean as I’ve just said, it doesn’t mean I hate my life now, doesn’t mean I’m miserable. I’m not. But there was a lot of awesome about my existence that has ceased to be at the moment. But again, that’s a very selfish or inward looking way of doing it. You know that. There’s also 50,000 people in the US right now, who wish they had my things to complain about, you know, so yeah, yeah, I’m so awkward picture. Yes, I missed it. Yes, I miss Tara, I do miss terribly. And at times, like, let me put it this way, I was talking to a friend the other day. And this is said, without judgment of other people, this is just about me. If life is a poker table, right. And in February 2020, we’re all sitting around, some people had $50 worth of chips on the table. And some people had $100,000 worth of chips on the table. And so therefore, if you lose the hand of 2020, some people lost more than others. So I feel like I had a really fat stack of chips that went away from me in the last couple of months.

Murray Guest  06:58

Yeah, and, and I think what I know from you is that you really appreciated the work you’re doing last year and the travel, and maybe now it’s like, I appreciate it even more,

Aaron Kearney  07:09

Unquestionably. And part of the buisiness of all of that was you were in the car driving at a high speed the whole time. I’m talking metaphorically. And so those moments are paused. Why do I love it? What am I achieving? What is my motivation? there perhaps wasn’t a lot of time for that reflection. And I have certainly had, I mean, this is going to sound absurd, but I mean, we were watching a TV series. The other weekend, there was like an international diplomat who landed and was met in a car and driven and then met with the politicians about, and I was sitting there in my underpants. Because that was me. So yeah, you know, there’s, if you have been fortunate enough, and yet, it’s hard work and all that sort of thing. But there’s also a hell of a lot of fortune. If you’ve been fortunate enough to carve out a life that you enjoy. And then obviously, you’re going to miss it when it goes away.

Murray Guest  08:23

Yeah, I very similar to you. I do it was doing a fair bit of travel with clients around the place last year, I doubt 

Aaron Kearney  08:28

I would often see your backside disappearing out of William down airport. 

Murray Guest  08:33

Well, I don’t miss the train trip to Sydney, Particularly one on the way home. Now I just want to talk a bit about that fantastic work you’re doing in the Pacific. Just to help everyone understand the impact and the type of work you’re doing the Pacific and how Sport and Sport journalism was making such a difference. Help us understand what that means to the people of the region that,

Aaron Kearney  08:57

Yeah, it’s the actual logistics and the process. And all of that is complicated to explain. I know my mom gets frustrated, because she used to be able to say he’s on the TV, or he’s on the radio. And everyone understood now it’s quite difficult for me to explain what I do. But basically, I had a number of prongs to my work. I was in and M in, even though on the holding pattern in international media development. So that manifests in a range of different ways. So earlier this year, for example, I was in vanderwaal to teaching mobile journalism. So if you’re on a remote island, like the ones that were just hit by tropical cyclone Herald, how can you create some cohesive news coverage and get it back to home base that they can then be distributed to the world? So international media development from a sport perspective, it was for example, last year, we did the first indigenous Pacific language coverage, so we need a guy and bislama have a Women’s World Cup so I trained those commentators and took them to France. That’s what it looks like their sports deployed. So for example, in the last week, I’ve been involved in scripting, some stuff for the young Matilda’s who have done a diplomatic outreach to the victims in the Pacific, not only of COVID but also of how there’s the international sports development stuff and we can get into that if you would like that. People who there is a nuanced distinction between sports development and sports for development and very briefly the tweet version is this sports development is when you go to Tonga and see 120 kilos highly athletic Jonah Lomu style 15 year olds, right? And you go, I’m gonna get him for the Auckland warriors, or I’m gonna get him for the Newcastle Knights, and then you bring them out, put them on a wage program, get them patient, that’s sports development. Right? So, who is building a new grandstand in Vanuatu that is also sports development. sport for development is where you create a school’s program where eight year old boys play against eight year old girls, I’ll give you a perfect example. I’ve just done a social video in my earlier trip to Vanuatu, they have a program called spider ball, which is modified water polo. And essentially, the game incentivizes equality, you know, unless the girls are involved, you know, do as well blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it is using sport to develop a society. And so I’ve been involved in a in the delivery of that, but overwhelmingly in the communication, your face and communication. So if you’re in walger, you can see how your tax dollars are at work in something like this. And if you’re in Korea bus, you can learn about how disability sport is changing people’s lives. So Geez, if that was the tweet version, you wouldn’t want the war version. But yeah, you can see why it’s complicated. Yeah, but

Murray Guest  12:00

I can also, I feel like it’s a much more in depth sort of program. Like you’re saying, yes, it’s important to identify natural talent and develop that in someone and give them every opportunity to achieve their level of performance. But I’ll be honest, the second part of that story is a bit that gives me the tingles, that’s the bit that lights me up. Because that’s got this, this ripple effect. It’s called longevity. It’s impacting societies and communities. I bet you get the buzz when you’re over there doing that,

Aaron Kearney  12:33

Hugely so. And it’s addictive in a number of ways. To pick up the thread that you just said there, though, the why it matters so much is because in this post colonial environment, in this era of identity, and egalitarianism, which is entirely appropriate, sport, music is another and food is another but they’re not my expertise. Sport is a language that is ostensibly egalitarian, it’s mano a mano, it isn’t fair for a whole heap of reasons, you know, from drug use, or nutrition programs or training to coaching levels to facility, right, but it is ostensibly 13 on 13 men Oh, man, oh, woman Oh, a woman? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, and so it, it is a way to communicate through a mechanism that is not speaking down or speaking up. It’s right. So it’s very powerful in that regard. It is also a delightful parable for all of the big lessons of life, sometimes you play really well and lose, right? Sometimes it’s all about you shining as an individual, sometimes it’s about you playing your role in it, right. So all of the things that we love about the sport and equally applicable in that environment. So there’s all of that. And then, for me, personally, I made documentaries in Africa 20 plus years ago. And that went away because of the Asian currency crisis and whatever that was, where our money was coming from. But I always dreamed of going back into that developing space. But until digital disruption, I wasn’t a doctor or a teacher. So there was no value in my skill set. It’s only been in the last few years that my skill set has been marketable or valuable in those environments. And so I’ve looked at the chance to go back.

Murray Guest  14:41

Yeah, and I know that when you and I were talking about this conversation about pivoting and the pivot you’ve made from being a journalist to the type of work you do now. And actually, I know that when you did those documentaries in South Africa, you had some interesting moments.

Aaron Kearney  14:57

Oh, but yeah, I mean, we got, I spent Christmas Day, or I bought the same the year but I spent Christmas day there was a series of civil wars. The Sudan’s hadn’t split at that point, for example. And essentially, we were at a border, there was all sorts of confusion. We nearly died on a number of occasions, we had a lot of gunplay, and essentially, we were stamped out of one country. And then there was a no man’s own minefield to the next country. And we couldn’t get across it. So we spent Christmas Day effectively unassigned citizens citizens that have been stabbed out of one country and not into another. And we actually got to the other country by following goat herders through the minefield because they knew where the landmines were, and we’re not more importantly, well, and so we followed them through. I mean, yeah, there was lots of hairy moments. And like, I say to people, it was simultaneously one of those experiences because the wind for months was, we were to give context, we were making documentaries about an expedition that was the first in history to go from the Cape of Good Hope. So the, the very bottom of South Africa, to Alexandria, which is on the Mediterranean Sea. So in Egypt, so we went the full length of Africa entirely off road, and your extraordinary experience terrifying. If at any point, at any point, you would come at me and said, there’s a chopper, do you want to go home on a jumped on that thing in a heartbeat?

Murray Guest  16:43

Yeah

Aaron Kearney  16:44

So I was scared, and it was so deadly. And I genuinely thought we were coming home. Having got through it, it was the formative experience of my life, probably.

Murray Guest  16:56

I this may be hard for you to wrap up in a statement because I admire your ability to communicate. What on reflection now of that formative process, and you know, the journey you went on? What’s something that you’ve taken from that for the rest of these years to to now?

Aaron Kearney  17:17

Yep, I can give you I think, a succinct answer to that. And that is that our way is not the only way. That is to say, as you move through life, and it can be people who look and sound very similar, like you and I, who ostensibly have a lot in common, but we move through the world in our own unique ways, well, then that is exponentially more the case if you are in Samoa, or Sudan, or Somalia, or South America. And so essentially, being a journalist, and all of the other work that I’ve done is that I’m just a student of humanity. I just like learning how people work, what drives people. And what I have taken away from that experience, and then leveraged into all of my other travel and all of my other learning is that I want to understand, maybe I am doing things the very best way they can be done. Or maybe I’m just giving them the very best way they can be done for me. Maybe in some wisdom that can be drawn from, you know, 1000s of years of culture, whether it be indigenous or Pacific or African culture. And not only that, I just really want to spend some of my time on the planet, talking to people who aren’t exactly like me.

Murray Guest  18:42

Yeah. So I’ve just now I tell me if I’ve invented this, or I’ve just heard it. As you’re talking, the phrase that pops into my head is magnified curiosity. I feel like you’re already curious. Yet the Curiosity is gone. Let’s go 10 times.

Aaron Kearney  19:00

Let me illustrate your point. back at you with an example. There was when I was working for the ABC, there was a back when the ABC had money. There was a consultant that came from the US. And she said, I’ll let you in on a little secret. There’s really only one rule that we apply, there’s 10 commandments, but it essentially boils down to one rule when we are choosing talent, as they call it, people to talk on the radio or the television or whatever. And she said, You have to be infinitely interested in everything. And she said, You are like a Labrador puppy. You mercy. You. You know, sniff that Not that I’ve ever run around behind that look over the head and say yeah, and I mean, I used to be embarrassed by that level of enthusiasm. I used to try and suppress it. And now I don’t I just own it. And you know, I am what I am and I’m not apologizing for it.

Murray Guest  19:55

So as you know, mate I’m a strength coach, and I focus on strengths and so I’m just hearing your strengths and saying yes embrace that be that that is who you are. I’m wondering that it said dad was a journalist. Was there anything else you wanted to do when you were younger? Or was it following in dad’s footsteps was the path?

Aaron Kearney  20:15

No, he was quite strident in wanting me to not be a journalist. I’m not entirely sure why. I mean, it’s not a way to get rich, I know that much. I mean, I think he had a, a fulfilled and interesting life. So it’s hard. I’ve never actually asked why he didn’t want me to but he was quite enthusiastic for me not to do it.

Murray Guest  20:43

Well, what did you want to do when you were?

Aaron Kearney  20:46

Law, I did work experience at Newcastle courthouse. Yeah. And I really liked the I had a quite romanticized idea of you know, addressing the jury and having the decision overturned, you know, and a bit of time working in Newcastle courthouse squared that out of me real fast.

Murray Guest  21:06

So while you’re doing your work experience at Newcastle courthouse, I was at the Newcastle Herald. 

Aaron Kearney  21:13

Oh, work? Yes, that’s right. I’d forgotten that. 

Murray Guest  21:16

So that was my work experience. You know, wanting Yeah, but I also had long hair I wanted to be Michael Hutchins. So that’s 

Aaron Kearney  21:29

That’s a that’s a fun duel, ambition. Newcastle heralder, Michael Hudson. 

Murray Guest  21:37

So but then obviously law after experiencing that wasn’t for you. And journalism.

Aaron Kearney  21:44

Yeah, I went into comms journalism comms at Newcastle University and got a placement as you had to do work placement. And I turned up at the Maitland Mercury, which was my local paper, and they were lovely. But they basically said, Dude, we haven’t got time to witness you go and find something. So I think I produced like three stories that week. And some the timelines a little blurry. But some months later, they came back at me and said, there’s a good issue.

Murray Guest  22:18

Yeah, great. Yeah. Now I’ve got something that I want to throw at you. And now it’s talking about us catching up. And that is I growing up I thought about journalism as truth. And it’s like when you turned on the radio at six o’clock for the six o’clock news. Sorry, I turn on the radio got the TV. 6pm News, that if you read in the paper, that was the truth. And in recent years, there’s a term of fake news that has started to get thrown about. And there are articles out there which have clickbait and they have this sort of way of you know, sensationalizing whatever’s going on. At bloody frustrates me. Because it’s like, the truth is still there or a perspective on what’s happening, which is a element of truth. But then there’s all this other stuff. I just wonder where it’s going. And I wonder what your thoughts are about where it is now, and where we are going to ensure that integrity of journalism? Sorry, big question

Aaron Kearney  23:26

Yeah, big question and what I’m trying, what I’m trying to do is, pick a pathway that won’t take up the rest of our time. To answer here is my hope rather than my fervent belief, here is this is what I cling to, to address the problem that that you’ve just raised when you get your first job when you’re Michael Hutchinson anycast. All right, and you get your $66 a week, I’m probably showing my age, and you think to yourself, I can eat McDonald’s drive thru three meals a day if I want. And so you do prove it right. And then you wash it down would be that night and after nine months, or 12 months or whatever, and your belly is hanging over your belt and your face is full as its you guys. I don’t know if this is a healthy way forward. For me. I feel like social media is the McDonald’s drive thru and the $66 and that people gorge themselves because they could and it didn’t really matter that you ate some disgusting food from time to time because it wasn’t your lifestyle. But now we’re deep into that process and people are waking up and going, oh my god. If you are what you eat, then you most certainly are what you read and consume in the media. And if I don’t start putting some fiber in my intellectual diet, I am going to be in deep deep trouble when you see people like why even as we are facing a global crisis because we don’t have a vaccination. Why is anti vaccine on the rise? Because facts as you describe them, ceased to have value when information became ubiquitous? Once upon a time information had value that was what you learned. That was my expertise that I had. And I shared with you right? Now you can google everything, there is no mysteries. So information got devalued and emotion got empowered, right? Because the value is I feel something that there’s your angry face on Facebook, right? There’s your happy face. So now everything is emotionally ramped up informationally rent down. That’s how you get this this disproportion. So we find ourselves in a situation where when people feel like they do right now untethered, the world’s out of control, everything I thought I knew is gone. conspiracy theories take hold because they give meaning they tell you that someone’s in control. Right? Are you with the orange? Do you think he’s running the show? Right. So I, what I hope is that I am I am not. I neither the general population nor me particularly has any effect if I continue the food metaphor of eating three Michelin meals every night for our information, listening only to classic FM and reading on the Oscar Wilde, right? Yeah. But at the other end of the scale, if all you are reading is Breitbart, and conspiracy theories and anti vaccine and Instagram influences. My fervent hope is somewhere in the middle, we’re gonna open subway, where you can have some nice choices, some healthy choices at a reasonable access level. And so yeah, I think I feel like flushing through I feel Yeah, to some degree.

Murray Guest  26:50

Yeah, it’s like, well, there’s there’s not a switch. Not that there’s a spectrum here where the pendulum swinging, too, and it’s gonna sit somewhere in between all that,

Aaron Kearney  26:58

And there’s no universal answer either. I’m like, it’s easy to be romantic for that time of facts, right. But as you say, they will somebodies facts. There are indisputable facts. If you walk out of a second floor building, you will plummet to Earth right here. But then there are other things is Scott Morrison doing a good job, you can apply some facts to make your butt ransom. I don’t we don’t need to explain that. But what is easy to romanticize is that there was always boobie magazines, and there was always people and there was always what was the one use of the world or whatever, right? Yeah, garbage has always existed as well. It’s just you had to go looking for the garbage ones. Now the garbage finds here.

Murray Guest  27:40

And I actually think the other big challenges that confirmation bias that’s running, which a lot of people aren’t aware of, but they’ve got and it’s, I’m going to, I’m going to go and look for that data or that information to confirm what I already think. Yeah. And then that feedback loop in that circle.

Aaron Kearney  28:01

And we all are, right, there’s a there’s a there’s a there’s a psychological phenomenon that says what you see is all there is right? If you live in the Philippines, you everybody’s Asian when you say he’s Asian, if you live in Western Sydney, and you your reality looks like united colors of Benetton ad, right? If you live in West walls, and in Newcastle, you think everyone looks like you went on there, right? So. So we all have confirmation bias, where the problem comes is not knowing enough to know what you don’t know. That is to say, I’ve given some of the best years of my life trying to engage people who I really value, but who are doing crazy stuff online because they go well, all I’m saying is why isn’t there a shadow on the flag on the moon? I’m just raising the question. I’m like, No, no, no, no, you don’t get to raise the question. You have to find the answer. You know. 

Murray Guest  29:11

It’s like, I want to throw this thing out there and kick it around, or on a throw it out there and walk away. I’d only want to kick it around.

Aaron Kearney  29:17

Totally. And, and then you say to them, well, that’s utterly disingenuous. No, I’m just I’m just having this. Okay. So you think you’re divorced from your opinions? Do you go out there and say you think pedophilia is alright. So yeah, that washes, see whether you can divorce yourself from your opinion. So part of what I’ve always struggled with, and funnily enough, I’m struggling with it right now, because I’m being a bit cheeky and playing around online and my social media, you know, telling,

Murray Guest  29:45

I’m enjoying it, by the way,

Aaron Kearney  29:47

Eyebrow raising jokes and that sort of thing. And part of it always is, is that I’ve never known a world where my name and reputation was not attached to the media that I produced right? Once upon a time that was like a byline in a newspaper. Then it was what came out of my mouth on the radio. Now there’s the social media aspect of it. And what’s hard for me is that I realized that there are lots of people from different circumstances who don’t actually put any cache in their own opinion. They’re just talking about, you know, they’re just saying it because they’re saying it. And I find that hard. That’s a foreign language.

Murray Guest  30:22

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I think about, though, like you’re saying the junk food analogy, it’s always been there. But it’s now more readily available yet. But there are still some very good sources for information. And I think sometimes it’s about directing people to an alternative source. And sometimes, you know, just to throw another metaphor out there, you can lead the horse to water, but you’re not going to force it to drink. So we’re going to we can put it out there, but a tough time, we’re making those choices to whether they’re going to actually read that or actually absorb that information. 

Aaron Kearney  31:02

I know that everybody’s solution to every problem is make teachers teach it in the curriculum, or whatever else. And so I’m not that guy. But what I do think is this, that the two themes that you’ve raised in the last five minutes here are going to be two of the most critical resources that any individual can have in the front half of the century. And that is one to actually understand critical thinking, to not only be able to execute it, but understand what you’re doing, right. So it’s not enough to be able to pass the ball, you have to understand the science of how you’re passing the ball. So to understand and execute critical thinking, and also to have high levels of media literacy. And where I get very anxious, is it sometimes attributed to Paul Keating here, I’m going here, I am going to perpetuate a lie. Right? So I don’t know who said it but we’ll credit it with Abraham Lincoln, right. But somebody said, and I required it often is that if somebody has got an eight second solution for you, it’s no solution, because all the eight second problems were solved 300 years ago. But we are in a world where we are in a world where eight seconds is all you’ve got to solve my problem, man, I’m a busy guy. Well, you got we got your eight seconds solve my problem solve my problem solve my problem. And you know what you can do in eight seconds, all you can do is come to me and go. You’re not the problem. That guy over there is the problem. And I got Yeah, good luck with that. Good. Yeah, that’s right. So I’m really, really worried about this idea that in a world that only has patience for simplicity. The only way forward is to embrace complexity.

Murray Guest  32:59

Yeah, and be okay with sitting with the complexity and having the deep conversations on a narrow topic, as opposed to just the surface level. Eight second conversations, it’s the main, it’s the tweet. 

Aaron Kearney  33:16

And, again, I’m a Pollyanna. I’m an eternal optimist. One of the things that I’m hoping will come from this crisis that we’re all living through, is that we will in fact, realize that everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are of equal value, that we will indeed get some, we will return some kudos to people who have given 20 years to a field of study, and not give their opinion equal value to Elon or Whoopi Goldberg or Andrew bolt or whatever else that that actually we will weigh opinions better, and that we will continue or we will return to a world where expertise has some value. 

Murray Guest  34:04

Yeah, I must admit that is something which, to be honest, I hadn’t thought about. But now in hindsight, thinking about those experts getting the coverage they deserve for the years, they’ve put in a certain field of science of medicine, and decisions or policies being made on what they bring my Pollyanna to build off your phrase there is what does that look like more broadly in everything we do? Because that would be you know, let’s listen to the experts. Not because my uncle studied medical science, so I’ve got a good idea of it. No, actually, everyone’s got a good you know, let’s use the experts.

Aaron Kearney  34:45

So let me put it to you in your field then, right. This to me is where the rubber hits the road in terms of authenticity. You have your business and Your program, because you are bringing a certain amount of expertise to the table, right? You believe that you have a special knowledge to impart in your realm. Right? But that’s not enough. You also spend a lot of time making that a product that people can sit and consume, right? You make it entertaining, you speak the language that people want to hear you gamified all of those sorts of things they do right and more all of my work. So what? How does one rationalize that? Do you at one end say, Well, I don’t actually care what got them in the door? They ate at my restaurant? Guys, if it’s the guy spinning the sign, so be it. I know, they ate good food in my restaurant, right? Or do you say to yourself, no, this is this is too important for me to prostitute my message. So I’m drawing the two poles, the answer is somewhere near the equator, I think. And that’s what we’re all pulling. But but it’s a genuine thing that I dwell upon often, how much do you treat information with an expertise with the gravitas that it deserves? And how much do you market it?

Murray Guest  36:23

So it’s great to see this podcast is going to go for three hours. 

Aaron Kearney  36:29

Part One of an eight part series, the Muz and Az show!

Murray Guest  36:33

It’s such a great conversation and a good good question. And I think you’re right, there’s somewhere in the middle there where authenticity, people’s BSD, their bullshit, detectors are really strong, they can tell if you’re not being real, you’re not being honest. And I combined that with also being open and saying, This is what I know. But this is also what I don’t know. And what I don’t know, I’m here to help you find that out or to actually defer to someone else. So part of my role, and what I do is, as a facilitator owner, facilitate the learning out of the group. And I love that. And I know what I bring is the ability to do that, versus I’m mentoring you because they’re two very different things.

Aaron Kearney  37:20

Let me share with you something that you might find useful. Certainly some people listening to this, you’re welcome to steal it, because I think it’s absolute gold. So I had all sorts of first world white male middle class anxieties about going into developing nations and teaching in inverted commas. And, and the reality of it is, all of those things are unfounded, because there’s actually a prejudice in even thinking that way. So we’ve been setting that to one side. My opening gambit, when I’m dealing with a new group, is I say, what I want you to imagine is this, that we are at a cocktail party this week at this workshop. And I am the dude with the tray of hors d’oeuvres with the shrimps and the avocado, crab and the bumblebee. Now I know because I have a certain level of expertise, and I have worked around the world, I know that everything on this plate is edible, right? And I know that I can take this plate somewhere, and somebody will find something on it delicious. What I want you to do is to sample what’s on that plate that I bring around this week. I don’t expect you to eat every single item that is offered. What I actually hope you’ll do is go That’s nice. But if I gave that a coconut treatment, that would be perfect. In my restaurant here in Samoa. Right? Yeah. So I actually walk that through as a psychological process and say, pick it off, taste it, I’m not expecting at all to be for you. What I do hope is that a you’ll find something delicious and be your then take that and improve upon it for your own personal circumstance that I can’t even imagine what that circumstances. And Gee, I find that’s an effective opener, because it empowers those, you’re not talking down to anybody. And it actually invites them to take the morsels that you’re presenting and elaborate that for their own circumstance.

Murray Guest  39:17

Can I say I love that analogy. And my build is and when you taste this morsel, don’t just taste at once. Yeah, dont just use it once. Because I think sometimes we can taste something like that and go, yeah, that’s okay. But I’ll go back to whatever else I was eating before, or I might just try it once. Because if we want to use one of those, we’re gonna eat some of Aaron’s beautiful platter of finger food. Let’s actually try it over the next couple of weeks and see how it looks in my restaurant and how it works for me.

Aaron Kearney  39:53

100% And actually, I’m sure in your business in mind as well. That’s one of the biggest challenges then You have to say you will not actually get maximum results from one engagement.

Murray Guest  40:06

Yes. 100% Yeah. Now I’m going to quickly change the subject because I’ve got a question for you which you could talk for a while and but just want to quickly know your perspective, my friend, and that is sports taken hammering over these past couple of months. with major codes around the world, you know, pausing stopping, however you want to frame it up. It’s I know, a lot of people look to the sport as their religion in some way, you know, lifts their spirits brings them together, as you know, as pack animals as humans, we come together. And there’s some recent reports around the future, the elite as well, which is a concern. I also wish we had a basketball team in Newcastle. Sorry, yeah. Yeah. Mate, Wait, where’s it going to be? Honestly, you know, 12 months from now, six months from now.

Aaron Kearney  40:59

I heard somebody say on another podcast recently, I’m not in the business of predictions and forecasting. What I like to do is explore scenarios. And I feel like that’s really useful, because I think making predictions is a fool’s errand. But here’s what, here’s what I think. successful sports going forward, whether this be at franchise level, grassroots level, elite level. So often you see billionaires from coal mining or whatever else who get involved in sport, and fail spectacularly. And the reason why they fail spectacularly is that the skill set that makes you great at moving coal trains, right, screwing people down on price, clarifying your supply lines, having certainty around delivery, all of those sorts of things that give you value and turn you into a billionaire in that realm. Have no cachet. In the world of sport, in the world of sport, you are selling a sense of community, a sense of connection, and a sense of hope. And the sports that can, the hunger for those things has never been greater, the appetite for paying $150 for a jersey, and being watching people shoot up tin cans at the weekend when they should be socialized, relating, yes, the appetite for that has never been less the sports that come out the other side of this and can embrace the format in an authentic way, and resist the latter and reinvent themselves beyond that corporate mess. Those are the ones with a tomorrow.

Murray Guest  42:54

I thank you so much for that. And there’s a bit that I’m adding an artist one to think about as well. And that is the perspectives that players are getting out of this experience. And again, I’m I’m theorizing here, but the the journey for a lot of players for a lot of coser last few years has been meteoric with certain conditions and pays and salaries that are just amazing compared to the average person. And this new perspective that a lot of people you and I included, and the sports people in this process that are getting, hopefully also supports that new grounding, not just of the codes, but also of the players as well.

Aaron Kearney  43:43

Let me bring the conversation full circle and reiterate your point to you. So I particularly love working with para athletes when I’m talking about storytelling here working with para athletes, working with athletes in developing environments, and working with women. And the reason why, and this is a very broad brush. And I mean, there are many remarkable exceptions to what I’m about to say and kudos to them. We have some of them in this town. But your bog standard methodology for an elite male sports personnel is you’re identified at 13. You put on your weights and nutrition program at 14, you were siphoned off from the rest of the world, you were told you a special and you have an agent who talks about how many zeros are going to be on the indoor number. It doesn’t make you an interesting person doesn’t give you perspective, it does not make you well rounded. It does not educate you, right. If you’re somebody if you’re somebody who lost their leg in a lawn mowing accident, or has had to put themselves through nursing college while trying to be captain of the Matilda’s or whatever else the thing is right. You have an engagement with reality that is so much more interesting and illuminating. If less profitable, Then the next scenario that you’re talking about, and I just feel like, Look, barter. We’re kidding ourselves. So we think, you know, the Barcelona starting 11 is not going to be worth a billion dollars in five years time it very much is. But I do think that bolo, that crusty LA, I think that the the sands are shifting and there are new possibilities. And I mean, part of the positioning I’m trying to think for myself is if I have this vision, and if I believe this can happen, how do why happened to that process, as opposed to just observe it? So it’s one of the things that’s on my thinking quite at the moment.

Murray Guest  45:39

Thank you so much for that perspective. And I’m mindful of our time, and this has been, I’m gonna say part one,

Aaron Kearney  45:48

As you can see, I don’t really like talking, but I’m more than happy to do it as a favor. No, no, I would I would love to engage in and because you like me. It’s big ideas. And big ideas demand more than glib answers. Inevitably, it was going to go this way. So like any time, any circumstance, and as I say, that doesn’t even have to be in this forum. We can. When we’re all allowed to get together, we’ll sit on a stage and talk rubbish one day. 

Murray Guest  46:18

Oh, that sounds like a great idea, my friend now. Thank you so much. It’s been honestly, such a joy to talk to you. But also, I feel like we haven’t done justice to the impact you’ve made in communities and I’ve your career as a journalism and what you do now. It’s been a privilege to chat to us. And I value your perspective and value the impact you make. And so please keep doing what you’re doing. Thank you so much. 

Aaron Kearney  46:45

Beautiful words, thank you. And you know, I, people like you are the ones that made me have the bravery to quit a very nice salary in a very safe government organization and go out on my own and try and do something remarkable to believe in my strengths. And that’s that still makes me squirm to even say something like that. I don’t even like talking like that, but to embrace in my my strengths, and try and leverage them to do something that is beyond the ordinary. So yeah, back atcha. I really value what you do. And I’ve had a blast talking to you today.

Murray Guest  47:22

Yeah, thanks, mate. I know, they’re not easy decisions to make that leap.

Aaron Kearney  47:27

If i’d of known covid was coming I might have kicked it along the road, 18 months, but I’m looking forward to that whole 14 favoring the brave thing.

Murray Guest  47:40

It’s just a little bit further on. Now, just to wrap this up, you have given me your definition of inspired energy, and it’s what this podcast is called. And I’ve heard that today. Do you remember what you said? Or can you repeat it? 

Aaron Kearney  47:56

What did I say? As soon as you tell me. 

Murray Guest  47:58

Well, I’m gonna I’m gonna be no disrespect to anyone I’ve asked this question to before. And I said to Tammy, I said, I love already. The anticipation I had for having a chat with Aaron because his answer was, and I’d say this with all truthfulness, inspired energy is the offspring produced when dreams and determination have a passionate affair. 

Aaron Kearney  48:24

What a tosser! 

Murray Guest  48:28

I want to know who wrote that for you? Because that is beautiful.

Aaron Kearney  48:31

I’m pretty sure I’m pretty sure that must have been on my daily inspiration, Instagram. Not at all. I mean, I tell you what, that articulate. When you approached me about doing this, you know, I was under a, a wall of stuff going on. And where we started this conversation, saying you have good moments and bad moments. And I was zooming out and having a lot of thoughts about that fortune five, you know, going out What does it mean? What is it and I had inspired energy and I had inspired energy, but inspired energy was what motivated me to cut my safety ropes and do what I did a little over 12 months ago, and that is because I had drive and and I had a dream. And so what is that if not inspired energy?

Murray Guest  49:27

Yeah, 100% I, I can hear it in your voice. And I can feel it. And that’s the more important part. So thank you. 

Aaron Kearney  49:38

No, thank you. It’s been a blast.

Murray Guest  49:41

 Awesome, mate. Have a great rest of the week. See you in 2022 or whatever it is. 

Aaron Kearney  49:48

We’ll get within 1.5 meters of each other. 

Murray Guest  49:52

Thanks mate.