Episode 69 – Lockdown Leadership | Self-Care

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Self-care.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:00

Welcome everybody to conversation five in what the best leaders are doing during lockdown. Here I am, again with Becky Hammond. And we are talking about taking care of self and self care. Such an important thing right now, and has been obviously through COVID-19. And right now in this period of transition, and it’s honestly something which I think, unfortunately we do sometimes as people and as leaders we can let slip. But right off the bat, I’m going to say self care isn’t selfish, looking after yourself is so important. And as we’re going to explore in this conversation, how the best leaders are making sure they’re investing in themselves, so they can show up for themselves the best, for the people they lead, and for everyone else around them. Becky, how are you? And what do you think about this whole topic of self care?

Becky Hammond  00:54

Hmm, you know, this is one that I’m particularly excited about, I think, you know, one of the leaders that I spoke with, have you had the chance to listen to the strength in crisis series that we did on the podcast anyway, one of the healthcare leaders said, I have never worked so hard to achieve so little. Now there is a lot like some people, you know, went home and felt like they had a lot of time, and some industries, and some organizations and some leaders felt like, oh, my goodness, I didn’t think that life could get any busier or any more stressful. And so, you know, it has been hard for leaders in especially in those industries to say, Yeah, I should prioritize myself, right? Because just like you said, you know, you’re a little catchy catchphrase, like, taking care of yourself isn’t selfish. And it’s not. And not only is it not selfish, but it is the best thing that you can do for your leadership and for your team members as well. I had a, there was a leader who that I was talking to who blocked out time when she hit a wall. She like woke up one morning, she had hit a wall. And she just said, What am I going to do about this, and when she reflected on her life, she’s like I have been working for 24 days straight. And there’s no way that I’m, that this is good for me or for my team. And so she looked at her calendar and just said the next time I could do this, is like a Tuesday or something, next time I could do that is Friday morning, blocked out for a couple hours. She exercised that morning, she went on a walk with her kids. And she just, she took care of her body and her mind. And she was able to show up that day. And the following week, even with just such a different energy to her work, even though the stress stayed the same. The busyness maintained the same but because she has chosen to pause and take care of herself, her entire perspective and outlook changed.

Murray Guest  03:00

You remind me of helmet time.

Becky Hammond  03:03

What? Oh, helmet time, like how much time like riding a bike? The goal?

Murray Guest  03:08

Yeah, yes, yes, a bicycle. Okay. So a leader I was talking to about a week ago, in a session he was talking about his feeling of stress of anxiousness of overwhelm, very aligned with unfortunately, your leader of working so hard, but feeling like not getting stuff done right now, not achieving. And we’re doing a call on zoom. And in the background is his bike, his bicycle. And I said to him, when was the last time you rode your bike? He goes, I used to ride twice a week, but I hadn’t written now for a month. And he said, I love riding my bike, but I just don’t have time right now. And I said, I said, What is it like when you ride your bike? And he said, I feel free. I feel like I’m a child again. And I totally align. You know, I love my riding my bike. And, and I said, so what’s happened? He said, I just haven’t been making time for it. But you know what he said, I miss my helmet time. And it’s that that getting out and doing that thing, that exercise, his self care. Yes, it’s physical, but also the emotional connection and the mental benefits of riding the bike. And so he calls it his helmet time. And I love that. And I’ve heard from him since that he’s been back out for some helmet time a couple of times a week and feeling so much better. Yeah, so much. Just short, short bicycle rides. But again, it’s the neural connection of when he’s on the bike, he’s taken to a different place and feels better.

Becky Hammond  04:50

So yeah, and it’s not always about necessarily the physicality of it, though that is a part of it, taking care of your body, your physical body, it’s also creating a mental space. And so on a bicycle, you could probably do both, right, you’re creating this, there’s a physicality to it. But there’s also this mental space of like, no one’s calling me, you know, no-one’s talking to me, I’m able to either check out if that’s what you need to do or use that time to process through things without interruptions, without judgment from yourself or others of what you’re doing as you’re just sitting there and thinking. It also looks like maybe scheduling a vacation or a staycation or making sure that you’re blocking time off where you are unplugged for a while. There was a leader that I was working with who said, you know, she was too busy to take a vacation, but she was going to do it anyway. Because she realized that not only was it good for her, but she wanted her team to feel through the freedom to say it is okay to unplug. And that, you know, she just came back and she like, I feel so much better. Like I feel like, Yes, she’s like, yes, I do want to stay on vacation, I wanted to just stay here. But now that I am back, I feel refreshed. I feel a new sense of energy to be able to put into this role. And so not only was it for herself, but then also for her team to say like, Look, if somebody at this level can take a vacation without checking their email, and without getting on calls, then, you know, I can, I can do that too. And you will find as a leader that your team comes back, refreshed, and maybe they even come back with new ideas. Because time away helps you to have perspective.

Murray Guest  06:47

Yeah, and I think what you’re exploring there, Becky, something that’s so important, and that’s those leadership symbols and walking the talk, which demonstrate the the importance of something, not just by saying it, of course, by doing it. When we talk about self care, like, you know, taking a break, what else do you think leaders could be doing to demonstrate that to their team?

Becky Hammond  07:12

You know, I think part of it has to do with, okay, so we talked about physicality, we talked about taking a break. So there’s like a physical aspect and mental aspect. There’s also kind of a self reflection aspect of, if you’re really taking care of yourself, you are leaving time in your day, or your thought processes, to come to a deep awareness of how you show up, how that matters, what your strengths are, what energy you have when you walk into a room, you know, we talked about our leaders who give a damn program like, what if you could just pause for a second before you bust into a room? I mean, maybe not a bust, no, maybe not a bust-in kind of type, but before you walk into a room like what energy are you bringing in there? Are you bringing a nervous energy? Are you bringing your stress energy? Or are you bringing something that when people walk in, they’re like, oh, leaders here, that’s awesome. Right? Like, oh, there’s a peace that you bring just by being here, like, Oh, my gosh, I’m so glad to see you. Because, you know, as we talked about in our last episode, like you bring a sense of clarity, I can ask you these questions, I know we have trust together. So just understanding like, it’s all part of self care, I think this idea of self awareness, being a part of our self care, and that it benefits, you know, not only you and your psyche, but your team, as you really are aware of how you’re showing up and what that impact is that you’re having on them.

Murray Guest  08:36

Yeah, and all those little symbols, again, create a culture, they encourage the team behavior, they also help you demonstrate how they can be at their best. I can share unfortunately, an example that’s not as good. And a leader I was talking to in the last month, and he was talking about his business. And I said, how’s the team going? He said, Oh I make sure the team have lunch every day. I encourage them to have lunch every day. And they have lunch in an area not far from my office. I’ve got a double door into my office and I can see them. And I said so what do you do when they come in to have lunch? And he said, I don’t have time for lunch. I just quickly eat my food in front of the computer. And I said, So how do you think that looks? I’ve got some inauthenticity, some misalignment there. And he goes, Oh I never thought about that. I said, So the team connects over lunch, you know, you bond as people over food. And even if you take out 15 minutes, if you do have some busyness, you’re gonna send a different message. He goes, Oh I have never thought about that.

Becky Hammond  09:49

Yeah. Oh, man. That’s such a good example, and how easy it is for you know, us as leaders to be like, well, I’m busy, but they should do this but I’m not, you know, that creates an environment that you probably aren’t contending as leader. Talk a little bit about, you talk a little bit about seeing articles on LinkedIn and things like that about the third space. What does that mean? What is it? You’re talking about investing in the third space? What does that mean? And what does it have to do with our self care and our well being?

Murray Guest  10:19

I have loved this conversation about the third space, I’ve been sharing with a range of people in my workshops, and yeah, as you said, on LinkedIn, I put a post on there, which has had a lot of traction, which is fantastic. It’s something which I find is a real simple way for us to think about where we’re investing our time and you know, that self care to be at our best. So, you know, if you think about home is your first space. And then work is your second space. And generally, for people, let’s just say, pre COVID-19, they were very separate. I’m at home, I go to work. And they’re separate. And in between those is a commute in some description, maybe drive, public transport, walk, ride a bike. And then our third space is this thing that we do in our life that is separate from home and work, which helps us be at our best, something we love doing, invest in your self care, we’re passionate about. And it could be riding a bike, it might be going to the gym, it could be doing yoga, and maybe reading a book, could be catching up with friends and shopping, might be going to the cinema, to the movies. You know, I could go on and on and on. Yeah, all the possibilities. What has happened, unfortunately, in the past few months is space one and space two come together as one thing. Working at home, and my space one, space two is together, I’m at home. And I’ve also not able to invest in my third space, because things aren’t happening, things are closed down, or I’ve got restrictions. That has led to, unfortunately, stress and impacts on well being, mental health. So we need to pause and reinvest in that third space, create that third space. And honestly, I think it’s something so again, simple but can have a real reset and how we’re looking after ourselves. So for example, my wife, Tammy, she’s been doing yoga at home. The local yoga studio has been doing classes online. And that’s been really good for her. People I know that have got a stationary bike at home, and they might ride the bike at lunchtime at home. People that had been catching up with friends, and then they couldn’t, have started to catch up with friends whilst maintaining social distancing. But they’re going for a walk together separately, but starting to connect, because that third space is so important because we know our world is just work and home all blended together. We haven’t got that distinction to help us be at our best.

Becky Hammond  13:13

Yeah, it seems like no matter what, it’s the first thing to go right. Like when life gets stressful, let alone the fact that your worlds have collided, that it’s the first thing to go. I remember, I’ve actually just recently got back to it. But I’ve been doing ceramics. So I like to throw things, make things out of clay. And I had done this for 13 years. And then I started working a job in San Diego where it was many, many hours. And I got achiever, like overdrive. And I didn’t do that anymore, you know, and so this is like way before the world that we’re living in right now. And yet, it’s like it’s that, that I would always when I was doing it regularly, I would every Wednesday I would say, Oh I don’t want to go. And then David would say, Yeah, but you always feel better when you do. And then I would say, Fine, I’ll go. And then when I came back, it was like, Oh my gosh, it was amazing. It’s awesome. And I was like a different person. I was like a better person to be around. And that’s, you know, that’s what you offer your team when you set aside time for the third space even when you don’t want to, and it doesn’t have to be physical. It can be like you said reading a book, or you know, as it was for me like putting my hands in mutton you know, it’s just a, there’s a different psyche that’s created when you decide to invest in a difference space outside your family.

Murray Guest  14:35

In the Leaders Who Give a Damn program, in the module of well being, I remember us talking about joy. And one of the things that bring you joy and making the time to reflect what are those things that bring you joy and revisiting those and bring those back into your life. And, ceramics, for you, I’m just hearing that right now. It lights you up, gives you joy. And you’re a better person to be around.

Becky Hammond  15:02

Yep, that is true, you can ask my husband.

Murray Guest  15:06

So similar, similar to another leader that I’ve been working with, he is a surfer, he loves to surf and he’s one of those water people, he loves being in the water. And if he doesn’t get that surf, he can start to feel a bit grumpy and is a bit tough to be around. And he knows that about what he does. And what he has been doing is making sure he gets that surf in. And he’s even been, I would say, quite clear, again, linking back to our conversation on clarity, clear on his boundaries, he’ll look at when the surf is up, as they say, and he’ll make sure that he’s able to go for that surf, but then he’ll work longer hours when he needs to. And he’s actually, he’s had a meeting come through from a peer that said, Can we meet at this time? And he said, Oh no I’m unavailable at that time. I’m going for a surf. And they said, what!? And he said, No, we can chat at six o’clock tonight if it’s that important, otherwise, tomorrow, but I need to get my surf in today. Again, setting some boundaries and making sure he’s looking after himself. And I know that might be hard for some people to do in the type of work that they do. So more think about, well, what is your third space? And what does your self care look like? And make sure you’re creating those boundaries. And you’re doing that for yourself as well.

Becky Hammond  16:24

Yeah. Yeah. And so then what’s the impact? You know, you and I’ve kind of just both been dancing around it. But what are we like, what’s the impact on your team if you decide to take care of yourself? Why do we say that self care isn’t selfish?

Murray Guest  16:42

Well, do you either make time for your health now or make time to be sick later on? And that’s not from me, that’s from Dr. Mark Hyman, he says that, and I totally agree with that. And it’s about taking that time out for you now. Because down the track, there’ll be things which will, will show up, unfortunately, in your own health and well being. And I also think that you are lucky, you said and articulated so well, you’re a better person to be around when you have invested in that self care. You’re a better communicator, you’re leading better, you’re showing up. Excuse me, I’m going to cough. Better connection with your team for sure.

Becky Hammond  17:28

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no one wants the burnt out version of you. I think in the end, that’s what it comes down to, you’re gonna show up better for your team and for your family, both, both of those first two worlds, if you invest in your third. You know, the burnt out version, I’ve seen leaders who are the burnt out version, and they are not kind people to be around. Nor do they seem to treat their family well, either. You know, there was a guy that was the leader of one of the managers that I was managing. And there was a story that he was kind of proud of that on the day that his daughter was born, within 30 minutes of her birth, he was taking a call that he just had to take. And that just, I mean, that just ruffled the feathers of relator guy, like you? And that wasn’t being an inspiring leadership example that his team was after at all, and know that burnt out version creates somebody who’s quicker to get angry, they’re more impatient. And that impatience comes at home, it comes with your team. And that ends up being the result when you don’t take care of yourself, you don’t invest in that, in that third space.

Murray Guest  18:49

100%. Yeah, and there’s an ad for paracetamol that we have in Australia, and I can’t remember which company it is. It doesn’t matter, I think in this point, but their slogan is soldier on. Make sure you can soldier on. And it’s all about, you know, pressing on. And yes, there’s some things that we need to get done each day. And yes, we need to make sure we were there for our family, and yet work hard and for our teams that we lead. But in essence, we’re also going to look after ourselves along the way. We’re going to pause. We’ve got to make sure we’re filling that cup and investing in our third space. So Becky, I would ask if the leaders listening to our conversation today, are thinking, Okay, I’m hearing all this and I’m starting to think about what I can do to invest in my self care. What’s the action, do you think, that would help them move this forward?

Becky Hammond  19:47

Yeah, there’s two things that really come to my mind. One is very tangible, which is a scheduled time. So you create calendar events all day. Right, you create calendar events with your, your team members, maybe you are starting to create clarity in your team and you have a morning huddle, you create time in your calendar, that’s one of the things we talk about in tackling busyness in Leaders Who Give a Damn is, it feels like you don’t have control of your calendar. And there are some things that are just outside your control. But there are little things that you can do to make a difference. And this one will make a huge difference, scheduling time in your calendar for self health, for the opportunity to invest in that third space. And just start with you know, if I was going to be very, very practical as I just start with one time per week, and maybe that’s 10 minutes before you usually wake up in the morning. Or maybe it’s you know, as the leader that you worked with said like scheduling, blocking out the time when the surf is high. Maybe it’s scheduling a lunch break in, because you’ve been working from home, and you realize, well, I could go out and hang out with my kids for 15 minutes, whatever feels life giving, but don’t make it – I caution again, especially if you’re a leader that’s listening to this and you’re like interested in self growth, you’re probably like, okay, yeah, I could do this, right – like, if there’s an inclination to say, I’m going to do it all or I’m going to do not at all. And just start small and said, You don’t have to do it all, just start small. That just one small change in your calendar scheduling time would be the first thing that I would recommend. And the second part has a little bit more to do with mindset, giving yourself a mental break. Letting yourself know like this self care to teach yourself and to talk to yourself to say, you can only control what you can control. And everything else you have to let go. And trust that it will happen that you’ve been doing all these other things like giving grace and kindness, you’ve been talking to your team, have been providing clarity, you’ve been flexible and individualizing, you are doing everything, you are building yourself up as the great manager. Those are the things you can control. If you can’t control it, you have to let go. And you will give yourself a mental break, you will invest in your well being by just saying you know what, I can’t control that. And so I’m going to, you know, not worry about it. Easier said than done. But it gives yourself a mental break when when you enable yourself to do that.

Murray Guest  22:29

I totally agree. And I think that’s a beautiful link back to our last conversation on clarity. Bring that clarity in about, you know, what can I focus on? What can I not? And taking the time to journal that, write that down, working through and process that. I would love to just add a third little suggestion for the leaders. Yes, this is about self care, but also the care for your team and asking your team, how are they investing their own self care?

Becky Hammond  22:54

Yeah, I love that.

Murray Guest  22:57

We talked in the last conversation about, obviously, clarity and how you bring that to the table with your team. But also, my suggestion is how can you bring this conversation to the table as well? And just asking them, how are you investing in yourself this weekend or in this week, so that they are also making sure that they’re being at their best, and explore the concept of their third space, and what that looks like for them. Again, knowing your people is very important as leaders, and this is a way to show that you really give a damn about them, and you’re making sure they’re looking after themselves.

Becky Hammond  23:29

Yeah, and what better way, no better way really, than to be doing it yourself. Because that gives you a lot of credibility as you go into that conversation with them.

Murray Guest  23:38

100% Becky, this has been, again, a great chat and a great series as we’ve talked about these leaders in lockdown, and the leaders in lockdown that are making the best out of this difficult and challenging time, and how they have been demonstrating some of these themes that you and I have talked about over these five conversations. We’ve talked about obviously going all the way back to grace and kindness and how important that is and leading with grace and kindness, we talk about communication, individualization, which obviously is so important in knowing the individual needs and requirements of your team members. Last week, we talked about clarity. And here we’ve just wrapped up talking about self care and how important it is to look after yourself. So many great stories of what leaders are doing so well right now. And a couple of examples of the not so good ones. But also, you know, I’m learning from you all the time, these conversations Becky about your experiences as well. So thank you for all that you bring to these conversations.

Becky Hammond  24:52

Thank you. I feel like that the thanks goes to the leaders because leaders are the ones, you guys are the ones that are doing the hard work. You know, if it ever comes off that Murray and I are saying that this is an easy thing, you just put these five themes into place, and you should be, you know, hunky dory. Easy, breezy. That’s not what we’re talking about, you know, you guys know, as leaders that you’re, you’re doing the hard work, and by investing in growth of yourself and of your team, and learning from other leaders that are doing it well, that are saying, you know what this situation sucks. But we will, as leaders, have an opportunity and a privilege and honor to be able to impact how people feel about this season. And, and can provide real stability, trust, hope, compassion, the things that your followers need, and that your team members need. You are the ones that have that potential.

Murray Guest  25:52

And I just like to also say, Becky, after a conversation I had this week, and one of my sessions with some leaders, I finished it saying, I don’t want you to finish this session thinking this means a lot more work. And I certainly don’t want any leader thinking, out of these conversations thinking Becky and Murray are saying, oh, wow, I’ve got all these extra things to do, right now. I know, that’s not our intent. Our intent is actually, honestly, for a lot of us is doing less. And also changing a little bit, the way you do some things. So that actually gives you more value, and really helps demonstrate how much you care about your people through your words and actions. And it might feel like extra time right now for some of these conversations. But you’ll see those benefits we’ve been exploring in these conversations.

Becky Hammond  26:43

Yep, you can really be a leader who gives a damn.

Murray Guest  26:45

So as Becky just said, Leaders Who Give a Damn is a fantastic, and I say that because I think it was so great, all the conversations we had in Leaders Who Give a Damn, we explored seven key elements of what that looks like in that program, we talked about self awareness, wellbeing, know your people, managing perceptions, prioritizing conversations, and valuing relationships and tackling busyness. And obviously, in today’s conversation of self care, and links well to wellbeing and to self awareness. And as I remember I was talking about in that program, you can’t be the leader you want to be if you don’t look after yourself. You need to make sure you put the fuel in your tank. And certainly there’s lots of links in today’s conversation in those modules. If you want to know more, check out Leaders Who Give a Damn. Obviously, there’s the conversations I just mentioned and each one of those modules of those conversations, we support you with resources and worksheets to help you apply the key things we talk about. So check out the show notes to have a look at Leaders Who Give a Damn.

Becky Hammond  27:59

Sounds awesome. We’d love to have you a part of our community. And it’s been really fun to have these conversations and hopefully provide some insights that our leaders, that we have the honor to work with, have been showing us.

Murray Guest  28:12

100%. So wishing everyone health, happiness, safety and self care beyond this conversation and look forward to talking to you again soon, Becky, Thanks again so much.

Becky Hammond  28:24

All right. It’s been a pleasure. Bye now. Bye.

Episode 68 – Lockdown Leadership | Clarity

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Selfcare.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Becky Hammond  00:01

Well, good morning, Murray Guest. I was gonna say just your first name, but I decided to say both. So good morning. I’m so excited that we’re having this conversation today.

Murray Guest  00:11

Well, good afternoon to you. And you know, we are talking about clarity in this conversation and you’re bringing some clarity right into it from the start around, you know, names and time of the day. How have you been?

Becky Hammond  00:30

Doing good, you know, I mean, it is, it’s a crazy time still, like, I didn’t think that if we were in July, we would still be saying that. And, and we are, we’re saying that there is still a lot of uncertainty. And I know even in my personal life, we’ve had just kind of some close calls and just some things where we felt like, wow, one moment could change a lot of things. And I think that kind of all speaks into what we’re talking about today. And why this topic, this theme of clarity has come up, as one of the key elements of leaders who are doing it well, are really doing well, in this season of lockdown, of uncertainty. You know, I mean, a lot of organizations are not in their same, you know, we’re all staying at home, and we’re all working from home. But there’s been a lot of changes. And it continues to be uncertain in this time. And so this, this theme of clarity has been one that the leaders who are doing it well are just, they are starting to have a clear voice and a clear perspective. And they are communicating that to their team. So, Murray, this is a topic that is near and dear to your heart, and that you have seen leaders all around you do well, you’ve also been able to encourage others that aren’t seeing the importance of it to say, okay, well what happens if you practice clarity, practice, practice communicating more clearly, and painting pictures of expectations. So let’s dive into this topic a little bit more. Why don’t you, first if you would, just define clarity for us? What do you mean when you say that the best leaders are those who can create clarity for their team?

Murray Guest  02:19

So I totally agree with everything you just said then, Becky, around this time right now in July 2020. And what it’s like and, you know, things changing so rapidly. And who would have thought that after what we’ve been through the last few months, we’d be still in this situation right now. Before I share my perspectives, I just hope everyone that’s listening to us is happy, healthy and well, because it is something on the minds of every conversation I’m having with people and of leaders. And I think links back to some of our early conversations about our care for our team as well. I think about, you know when you see on Instagram those beautiful pictures of nature, of this still water and you see the pebbles underneath the water, or you might see the reflection or you see these beautiful shots where it shows underneath the water and then above the water. And it’s just, you look at that and you feel calm, you feel peace. And you think wow, I just would love to be there. I’d love to swim in there, I’d love to just, you know, experience that. It’s not the photos on Instagram of a murky dam, where you go, Hey, I can’t wait to put my foot in that one. And I follow nature, which is just a very simple, simple account on Instagram but shares those type of photos all the time. And honestly, I look at those and I think that’s just beautiful. And it brings this calmness to my sense of being when I look at those and I love it. The murkiness, the lack of clarity, imagine going for a walk if we were walking in the in the forest, and it’s a hot day, we’re with our children. And there’s a lake and we say, let’s go for a swim and we walk up to the lake and it’s crystal clear. We go Okay, we can see the hazards. We can see maybe there’s a log that’s washed down. We can see how deep it is, if there’s any weeds or anything like that. And we say yeah, let’s go for a swim. If it’s all murky, kids, let’s just back up and you know, play on the sand and let’s lie on the pebbles. We won’t go in the water. So clarity in nature gives us this calm. The beauty. We understand what’s in front of us.

Becky Hammond  04:39

Security in some ways, right?

Murray Guest  04:41

Yeah. A sense of knowing, you know, what’s ahead. Yeah. And as leaders, we need to provide that clarity. We need to lead clarity and those clearing conversations. And this time, right now, as we’re talking about lessons in leadership in lockdown. Unfortunately, we’ve just got all these bits that are adding to the murkiness that we need to bring to the surface and bring that clarity.

Becky Hammond  05:11

Kind of filter out, filter out the things that are creating the murkiness, that are creating the lack of clarity.

Murray Guest  05:17

Yeah, 100%. And we were talking before this conversation about assumptions and about just going through in our leadership roles or in our life about, we’re just assuming this or just assuming that or maybe people understand that, or, you know, I’ve told them once, they get it. But having those conversations, when we bring clarity to the conversation, just think for a moment about how that feels. And not just the calmness, but it reduces the anxiety, reduces the stress, it gives us clear direction moving forward, aligns with my what’s my purpose, what are my  priorities? And also, where can I provide value right now? And people need that. Because right now we’ve got all these other bits around us that we don’t know what’s happening. There’s change from, you know, organizations, from policies, from communities, to governments, and all that’s happening. So I need clarity, I need clarity right now. So I can feel at my best, and I can, I can deliver on what I need to do.

Becky Hammond  06:24

Yeah, what a powerful position if, as a leader, you could actually impact your team’s psyche, in a really uncertain time, by just creating clarity even in just in one space, right? Like, we’re still gonna have lack of clarity or those murky waters in some of our other areas. But what if in one space, as a leader, you can create a sense of ahh for them in one very important part of their life where they actually spend, you know, most of their time, if you’re working full time.

Murray Guest  06:56

Yeah. And I, I think about some of the work I’ve done over the years in partnering with organizations that work in high risk areas. So for example, power generation, where, you know, I want to talk about power, talk about electricity. And what I’ve heard and what I’ve found out and talking to the leaders in those emergency situations where we’ve got to be really switched on. What happens is people talk more, they communicate more frequently, they reduce the assumptions, the murkiness more, they’re communicating frequently. And clearly. And what happens is productivity, safety, performance improves in those situations, when things are at their most dangerous, their normal day to day work. Because they’re bringing that clarity in day to day, and this has been repeated many, many times. The challenge for them is how do we take that mindset and that driving and leading of clarity, into our normal business as usual.

Becky Hammond  08:01

Right, when there’s not a sense of urgency or emergency at which maybe even happened at the beginning of kind of lockdown time, right? Like, people were like having more regular conversations and things like that, because it felt like there was a lot of adrenaline up. But then what happens once the adrenaline wears off, and now you are kind of still in an uncertain environment. But you’re back to your day to day. And as leader, you know, where can we find that oomph and that drive to create clarity? So what have you seen, what what stories can you tell us about, you know, the leaders that you’ve seen that really have done this well, or, you know, the impact that it has had, either way, when they’ve done it well, or when they haven’t done it well?

Murray Guest  08:46

So over the past few months, I’ve been talking to lots of leaders. And thankfully, there’s some really good examples where the leaders have done this really well. And I think it’s not just about the team that you lead. But it could be those people you work with side by side, your peers, but also leading clarity upwards sometimes as well. Quick example around a leader that I know, he needed to really get clear with his team about what are the priorities right now? And you might think, is that such a big thing? Well, what was happening with this team, and with a lot of teams right now, is people are working from home, some are working back in the office. There’s a transition going on right now, like some in different areas right now. And the workload isn’t just the same in some areas, it’s increasing because they’ve got projects and they’ve got business as usual type tasks to do as well. And people are starting to feel overwhelmed, they’re starting to feel like, Well, how do I deliver this? How do I still actually maybe do a bit of home schooling, pick my kids up, in the office some days and for the most I’m at home, and it was the team going to that leader and saying, hang on, I actually don’t know what’s the biggest priority right now. And then the conversation generated and evolved into, you know what, that chunk of work, that project, let’s leave that for a few months. And they are like, Really? I didn’t even know we could do that. That was that, let’s leave that but this right here, this other project we need to deliver on, that needs to be done right now, you know, and the tasks for that need to be done right now. But leave this other bit and leave this other bit. And I think what the best leaders are doing is actually just bringing the unknown to the surface, they’re actually making it very overt. They’re having that conversation more frequently to make sure, Hey, I’m not telling you how to do your job. But what I’m going to do is make sure you’re clear on what our priorities are.

Becky Hammond  10:55

Don’t you think that sometimes leaders think that this is kind of like a boring conversation to have? Like, they might say, well, I mean, like, you talked about assumptions, but even more than assumptions, just like well, I mean, it’s just not that interesting, right? Like, I was talking to a leader today who said that she had a meeting with her team. They’ve been hit very hard by the impact of COVID-19. And they had to do layoffs, and they’ve had to restructure. And she decided to have a meeting with everybody on her team. There’s like 40 people there. And there’s, I think, four or five different departments, and everybody was on a zoom, live. And she went through four or five different org charts. And she explained who was in what role and what they were going to be doing. And as she got off, she was just like, oh, my goodness, poke my eyes out. I’m sure everyone was so bored. You know, like, this is not a riveting conversation. But what she found was that people were text messaging or Facebook messaging or emailing her saying, that was the best meeting that we could have ever had in this moment. Thank you so much for going through that. And what they were saying was, thank you for providing clarity when we were feeling stressed. You know, I mean, when people are getting laid off, of course, you’re stressed, it’s unclear, then not only is it, man, am I keeping my job, but what are other people doing? And who do I go to now for, you know, to work on this project? Or who am I supposed to collaborate with on this? And what she did by having a boring – what she thought was a boring – meeting, she made a peace in her team that she probably couldn’t have achieved in any other way, except for going through a boring org chart.

Murray Guest  12:55

Yeah, and I think that’s a great example, where, through that process, I can imagine the flow of the conversation of, Hey, I just want to confirm this bit of information. And I just want to check on what’s that person’s role now, and now I understand it. So it’s again, you know, getting everyone on the same page, removing the assumptions. This is the org chart going forward right now. And this is how we are going to work together. I mean, that is showing, I think, the vehicle that the discussion, the org chart, helps create greater clarity, not just on the org chart, but I’m sure other things will have fallen out from that as well.

Becky Hammond  13:32

Yeah, yeah, definitely following up with a Q&A and people feel because the leader is being forthright, they feel more secure, that they can ask questions, because they have a construct for asking them now, it’s not just kind of out of left field, and you know that the leader has given the impression that she is open for their questions and for their concerns and cares about their everyday job.

Murray Guest  14:00

This leads me to a point, Becky, I think is really important for us to consider that sometimes we need to provide clarity about where we can’t provide clarity. And in that conversation this may have come up. I’m, of course, not too sure. But what this looks like sometimes is people thinking, Oh, we won’t talk about that because we don’t know. What happens is everyone else is creating their own story, their own meaning of what they think is going on right now. And as a leader, you might need to say, actually what I would encourage people to say is, right now, all we know is this, and that’s all we do know. And this other part, you know, about an org chart or a change or what’s happening from projects in the future, whatever it might be, we don’t know what’s happening there. And so therefore can’t provide ant more clarity but I can provide you clarity on this. Again, reduces that stress and the assumptions and the stories and potentially gossip as well.

Becky Hammond  15:00

Yeah, when you and I talked back a while ago, for my strengths in crisis, it feels like years ago, it might have only been a few months ago. You mentioned a leader who you had worked with who said that it was communicated this idea of creating clarity, even when it wasn’t going to be popular, even when the decisions that were being made, like weren’t going to be giving the fuzzy feeling. Can you share that story again, about what she said?

Murray Guest  15:38

Yeah, I’ve got a few stories. I think it was this one.

Becky Hammond  15:43

I’ll let you know if it sounds familiar.

Murray Guest  15:46

Well, one that this does remind me of many, many years ago, when I was working for an organization and redundancies were happening. And I remember talking to the CEO, and we were walking to one of those town hall meetings where all the staff were going to be there. And I remember I just happened to be walking next to the CEO. And I said – and I was quite, quite young and junior in that day – and I said something like, Oh, are you going to talk about redundancies? You know, people are really worried and maybe you are going to talk about something like that? And she paused, walking, again, great leadership, didn’t just keep walking, paused, looked at me and she said, Murray, of course I am. People want to know what’s going on. I’m going to talk about it and answer the questions as best I can right now.

Becky Hammond  16:34

Yeah, and that’s a scary thing to do sometimes.

Murray Guest  16:38

Yeah, yeah. And I’ve seen the opposite to that happen. You know, redundancies, obviously, are an emotional process for a lot of people, for lots of reasons. But when you can provide that clarity, again, it makes it easier, you know, it links back to us talking about leading with grace and kindness, and how important that is. The other story that I want to share also is about leading clarity upwards as well. And a leader I was talking to earlier this week, she shared some frustrations about, how I am being communicated from my leader one on one, I feel like I’m not getting the full picture. Whereas my peer, who is having one on ones and another peer having one on ones. We all feel a bit misaligned in our approach and how we’re leading our teams. And they said, Look, what do we what do we do about this? And so they actually went to their manager collectively and said, hang on, we don’t think this process is working. We feel like we’re missing some gaps. And that there’s a lack of alignment and clarity. Can we change this process and meet collectively, more often, to reduce that? And they were actually a little bit concerned because they didn’t know how this manager would respond. And he was very much like, Yeah, sure. Okay, let’s do this. How does it work? I’m glad you came to me. Again, some assumptions there, but so powerful, because I’ve spoken to them again since and they’ve said, it’s been so good. It’s just helped us get clear for not just us, but for when we are leading our teams as well.

Becky Hammond  18:17

Wow. I love that. I love that as a leader, you can seek the clarity. Like so when you start to see things are murky, you don’t just have to sit there and trudge through the murky water, you can also start to pursue ways of cleaning that up. And I mean, it could feel a little risky, like you said, like they said, I don’t know how he’s gonna take this. But in the end, you know, hopefully you’re approaching a leader who says, Well, if we can create more clarity, then in the end, it’s going to be better for all of us. 

Murray Guest  18:53

I was just going to say sometimes when we do jump in that clear water, we can stir it up a little bit. And it can get a little murky. And sometimes to create clarity, it’s going to get a little bit, I don’t know I’m going back to the metaphor here, a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit murky.

Becky Hammond  19:13

Your shoes are gonna get wet.

Murray Guest  19:14

Yeah, maybe maybe a little cold, you know, a little bit, a little bit uncomfortable. That’s what it’s about. But through that, you’re going to get the the clarity that you need for you, your team. And it’s just so needed right now, Becky.

Becky Hammond  19:29

Yeah. So what does it look like? So you’re talking about some really great stories, what are some of like the actions and behaviors? So as a leader, I’m listening right now, I’m like, okay, those are some good stories, but like, how do I actually go about doing that? Like, what are some actual behaviors that you are observing that are repeatable by other people who might be listening today?

Murray Guest  19:55

So I think about from this conversation with clarity, there’s a couple of angles that a leader can go down. One is their own self clarity, where they need that. And to take the time out to reflect and think what is causing me stress right now? Where am I lacking clarity? And write it down, write down the list and actually do the work, and say, Okay, now who do I need to talk to to increase that clarity for each one of these things, and then plan and actually have that conversation and explain your intent. I need to know clarity on this project, I need to know clarity around what’s happening. But actually, then make sure you have the conversations. So that reduces your own sense of stress and worry, it helps you get focused. And then the second thing is to actually have that conversation with your team. I invite all leaders to be thinking about, sorry, not even thinking, let’s take that back. At their next meeting, at their next meeting, to actually say to the team, where do you need more clarity right now? What do you need clarity on?

Becky Hammond  21:13

So inviting them to help you point out the murky parts?

Murray Guest  21:20

Yeah, point out the murky parts. And then make sure you listen, and then create space to have that conversation. And you may not have all the answers, and that’s okay, that’s 100% okay. But create the space to have the conversation and then generate some actions where you need to follow up and get the answers or give them the understanding that you don’t have the answer right now, to reduce that. For some teams, you might need to give them some time to reflect on that and then come back to that. And, and others that actually might generate, which I think happens quite a lot, is the clarity that team members are going to provide to each other. So it’s not all about you as the leader saying, hey, I need to tell you this, this and this, but it’s actually going to increase the understanding between team members as well. The third one, I think that is really important is actually talk to your team about how often you are talking in your meetings. Is the cycle of your meetings matching the rhythm of your work? 

Becky Hammond  22:29

What does that mean? 

Murray Guest  22:30

So we think about how our work flows in our teams, sometimes we are getting through work at a pace where we need to talk more frequently to match the information flow that’s coming in and the decisions we need to make. So for example, a team might be meeting once a month or something like that, yet they need to have updates more frequently and get that alignment throughout the month. So another great example of this in the recent months, a leader I know was meeting with his team once a week. And it was a pretty good meeting. But with working from home and all of the changes to the arrangements, they now have that that huddle meeting every morning on zoom, where they check in on what are our priorities, how are we going, what’s working, and the team are definitely saying we want this to continue when we go back into the office, because that’s happening every day and how valuable it is in bringing that clarity. I think we talked about this one in communication when we spoke about that, because it is such an important thing right now in having those conversations more frequently to match the needs and the rhythm of the work, of the team.

Becky Hammond  23:50

What if a leader is feeling like man, I just don’t have time. I don’t have time for like more meetings. So what have the best been doing that have helped them with that? Because it’s not that the best leaders aren’t busy, they are. Everyone’s busy, right?

Murray Guest  24:06

Well, I’d ask the question of leaders that say that what’s the most valuable thing that you should be doing with your time? And what’s the time cost to have the conversation now? And what’s that impact if you don’t have it now, and how you’re actually repeating a conversation model times down the track? A leader I was talking to yesterday, she said to me, she said, Murray, I actually went back to my team after our last session where we talked about clarity. So it’s awesome when leaders do the work. And she said, I was thinking about this conversation, and she said, I realized when I was delegating I would normally just tell them, Hey, can you do this bit of work? And leave it. And she said, I paused and I actually said I need it by this date. I need it to look like this and this is the priority. And she said she was really clear, she said it only took me an extra couple of minutes. And she said, I even felt a bit uncomfortable. But the person was like, thank you so much. And she said, previously, there would have been five or six, you know, backwards and forwards, trying to sort the work out. So to answer your question, Becky, I think, yeah, it’s the role of the leader to actually bring that clarity and have those conversations sooner. Because when you let that go, you know, when you let it fester, when you let the water go murky, you’ll pay the price.

Becky Hammond  25:33

Yeah, yeah. So it’s like incremental meetings are going to, in the end, be more efficient than one grand meeting or going down the wrong path, because it was fogged over right, to mix our metaphors a little bit. But so that nothing’s a surprise, right, especially in performance, in evaluation, right? Like, I mean, this is some of the basics of managing of like, well, if you don’t tell them what you’re expecting, then it’s not fair to hold them accountable to something that they didn’t know was the bar. And so in some ways you can’t afford not to, even though it feels like maybe it’s because you’re busy. I mean, it feels so stressful.

Murray Guest  26:21

I think it’s a great link to It’s The Manager, which is the Gallup book that Jim Harter and Jim Clifton released last year. But we talk about past work and future work. And past work was an annual review and future work is an ongoing conversation. That’s what we’re talking about here. It’s not, hey, how you going, once a year. It’s an ongoing conversation about what’s working and what’s not, and how can you acknowledge the good and improve in some areas. And again, that’s that mindset of the ongoing conversation as a leader to provide that clarity in other areas as well.

Becky Hammond  27:11

Yeah. So what’s the impact? And we’ve been talking about it kind of incrementally as we’ve gone along here. What have you found, the leaders who are creating the most clarity in their teams, what is happening to their team? Why should leaders be like, Oh, yeah, I want to create clarity.

Murray Guest  27:31

Honestly, they are happier. They are thriving, they are more productive. They feel less stress. And they, I think there’s less resentment. Because I think sometimes we can get some of those negative emotions of, I’m not hearing and I’m creating a story why I don’t know and why it’s murky. I wish my leader would tell me, but I’m too busy… and all that stuff. So all that’s going. So we’ve got more happiness, more engagement, more productivity, and less stress.

Becky Hammond  28:13

Right. As an institution, my experience says that we do not take into account the emotional stress and the impact that that has as much as we could or should. That it’s like, as if you’re carrying an extra weight on your back, you know, you’re like a, you’re a marathoner, and every day, you’re starting at zero, and you’re trying to get to the end. And that emotional stress of not having clarity is like carrying an extra weight. So that as you go, you’re not going to be as productive, you’re not going to be as happy doing it. Because you have an extra weight on your back, you’re going to be thinking about things that, you know, maybe you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t spend your time spinning your wheels about. And, but when you can, as a leader, release that from them, it’s like you’re taking the burden off their back, and they can feel lighter. And more, you know, like you said, happier and less distracted by the emotional weight of a stress of the lack of clarity.

Murray Guest  29:22

Yeah, I think to add to that, there’s less conscious attention. There’s less thinking. There’s less worry about, Oh I’m thinking about all these elements right now, I can actually focus on what I need to do right now. And I’m thinking about other analogies right now that are just so relevant to this conversation. You think about when you go on a holiday and you plan it. Where are we going? What does it look like? Where are we staying? And some people might prefer to just go, I’m heading out and that’s fine. Generally, though, I would say everyone’s got some level of plan as big or small as it is. And when we have that structure, and that clarity that’s going to help us get there. I think even with the people that like the smallest amount of planning, that enables them to know where I’ve got some clarity, and when I can, you know, go with the flow. It’s when we just don’t know at all, again, anxious, what am I doing? What does it look like? I have no idea. I was in America years ago, and you and I talking about driving in America, it’s hard enough driving on the other side of the car, let me tell you that.

Becky Hammond  30:38

I have had that experience. Yes.

Murray Guest  30:41

But then too, so there’s one bit of clarity, how do I drive from the other side of the car? And then to actually, you know, drive across is it the i45? Whatever it is.. 

Becky Hammond  30:52

You’ve been to Omaha too many times.

Murray Guest  30:57

I’m trying to think which it was, you know, so many big roads. But then to actually say, I drove from Los Angeles out to Las Vegas, and to get out of LA, and where am I going? I needed to know, where am I going? Which corner do I take? Which street sign? How do I do that? Because I remember that knot in my stomach with a, a car full of family and luggage and trying to get across five lanes of traffic. Right? Where am I going? How am I going to get there? So I can make the best, safest decisions to reduce that stress. It’s exactly what we’re talking about right now, as leaders we need to provide that.

Becky Hammond  31:43

Yeah, I love that. That’s a that’s a really tangible metaphor that we can kind of think about where are we going and how are we going to get there. And so we don’t have to be stressed when driving, we can just chat with our family instead of feeling stressed and overwhelmed. So what, if there are leaders listening right now that are like, okay, I’ll try it. Or, oh, I see how I could add a little bit more clarity, or let’s just see what the impact would be. What do you think that, what do you suggest that leaders would do right now that they can say, Okay, this is a tangible thing that I’m going to do next week, or this week with my team?

Murray Guest  32:23

Yeah, so I think the first thing would be to have that conversation with the team. To actually say, right, we’ve got our standard team meeting, but let’s bring to the topic at the start of the meeting this concept of clarity. And you can even use the traffic light analogy. So right now, where have we got green lights, so we can just go straight ahead. Where do you feel like you’ve got some amber lights where you don’t quite understand, you know, I need a bit of information. And, and then we have our red lights, where have I got red lights right now where I actually don’t understand, I need clarity. Really simple. And then just go through that with the team. Again, bringing out the clarity, bring it out. And some of that you’ll find will be, as I said earlier from the leader within the team, or maybe from customers, internal customers, internal suppliers, where then it’s going to drive some real tangible steps to say, Okay, I’m going to go find that out, I’m going to find out what we need to know.

Becky Hammond  33:36

And not be afraid to say I don’t know, let’s let’s think about that.

Murray Guest  33:40

Yeah, let’s loop back on that. Let’s come back in our next meeting. You don’t need to solve everything in that first discussion. Yeah, let’s go and find out and we’ll come back. That’s what I say people should do first. And I think, of course, team meetings are a great places that but again, like we said earlier, think about what it means for you one on one for your own, you know, manager that you report to or leader you report to and how you can get more clarity for yourself as well. The other thing I would say Becky is try it out at home.

Becky Hammond  34:17

Hmm that seems like a whole other ballgame.

Murray Guest  34:25

It’s something which I put my hand up as a husband and father where I’ve missed the clarity bus. Let’s just say. And haven’t provided that. And the stressful conversations I’ve had. So what I’d say is yeah, have the conversation at home if you have a partner and about where are we missing that right now? And, and how can we improve that clarity and, and just see how that can reduce maybe some stress and improve that well being.

Becky Hammond  35:00

Yeah, and kind of circling all back around the uncertainty. If we can create certainty in some of the most important areas of our lives, then even though we still live in the midst of uncertainty, we’re going to have less stress and experience more well being in some of those key areas in our lives. So cool. Love that. Love that last little tip. I think I’m, I think you were trying to coach me on that one. So I will take that one. I’ll take that one home. Conversations like we’ve been having today are ones that we also have in our Leaders Who Give a Damn program. And, you know, what’s the connection? What do you think the connection to the Leaders Who Give a Damn program and clarity really is?

Murray Guest  35:44

Ah, so definitely I would say knowing your people is one of our modules, we talk about leaders who give a damn around knowing their needs and knowing them. Definitely also prioritizing conversations. That’s a key part that we talk about in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program. And as you said earlier, Becky, not just waiting to have the conversation. But yeah, let’s talk about that reduction of, of anxiousness or murkiness and bring the clarity there. And even the last one, tackling busyness. You mentioned leaders are busy, have always got a lot on their plate. But I would say this is a key part in our leadership roles, and making this a priority. And it will then give you that reduction in your busyness because I think, I’d like to say a lot of leaders will find it will prevent some of that re-communication and re-work and going over things that’s happening right now.

Becky Hammond  36:49

Yeah, yes, I love it. That is totally true. And we, in the program, in addition to tips and stories, provide some clear action that leaders can take. The idea is that we want this to be useful to you, very consumable. And so if leadership is something that you care about, if you care about caring for your people, then definitely check out Leaders Who Give a Damn. We have one more podcast in this series about lockdown leadership. So next week, we are going to be talking about self care, well being and just understanding the importance of taking care of yourself and the impact that is having on some of the best leaders that we have the pleasure and honor to work with during this time. So thank you, Murray for sharing your insight on clarity and your stories. And it’s just been a pleasure to chat as always.

Murray Guest  37:46

Right back at you Becky, always a pleasure chatting with you. And thank you for sharing your insights and stories from across the pond.

Becky Hammond  37:55

Murky or clear?

Murray Guest  37:57

Clear. A clear pond. Yes. See you next week.

Becky Hammond  38:00

All right. See you now. Bye

Episode 67 – Lockdown Leadership | Individualization

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Selfcare.

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Transcript

Becky Hammond  00:00

Well, hello there Murray Guest, I’m so glad that we get to have another conversation today about what leaders are doing in lockdown and have done in lockdown, and the themes that seem to be shining out of the best leaders, the most resilient leaders that we know. So, welcome, as we talk about this.

Murray Guest  00:21

Thank you, Becky. And I know you and I’ve been talking quite a bit in between having these conversations about these themes. And whether people are based in my part of the world or your part of the world or anywhere, there’s some common themes that are certainly arising from our conversations, and also some of the articles that we’ve been reading and things we’ve been seeing as well. So it’s great to connect and talk about these themes. And I think this one is a really important one. I’m hearing this a lot as leaders are in lockdown, and even right now, as there’s so many different versions of transitioning back into the workplace, back into organizations. And this theme of individualization in leadership, so so important.

Becky Hammond  01:05

Yeah, you know, Gallup has said for a long time, that the best managers, the ones that kind of rise to the top are those who individualize. And I think for some leaders, this is a super frustrating statistic, because, you know, it does require, it requires energy. It requires thoughtfulness, it requires work. But what we’re seeing is that it is true, the best leaders out of this crisis are individualizing, they are asking the tough questions of themselves to say, what could I do to add to making this experience to be one that is smoother, to be one that is more flexible, that doesn’t jump to conclusions, or base their theories of what’s happening on assumptions, and they are truly, truly individualizing? I know that we have some stories from some of the best leaders that we are working with right now. I’m curious to know, kind of what’s one of those stories that rises to the top for you, as we talk about individualization and flexibility?

Murray Guest  02:09

Yeah, I certainly want to share a few of those stories, because I’ve been inspired by how leaders really bring that individualization to their daily leadership and the way they’re approaching it. And I think even just to pause for a moment and reflect on this idea of managing people to a job description, and treating them like parts of a factory process, you know, like the old style management. That has been highlighted through this experience that we’ve all been in, in the past, you know, three or four months, how that just does not work, that doesn’t engage people, they don’t feel connected. And honestly, we don’t treat them as humans and as whole people, if we manage people like that. Yeah, and as you’ve just highlighted, Gallup, has highlighted and identified the research that that individualization is so important. And one of the stories I want to share, Becky, is a leader that I’ve been working with, and they manage an operations area, and they needed to, you know, start to have people work from home. While some people still need to be coming to, basically a depot as you would call in America, or down here we call it a depo. That’s the same place.

Becky Hammond  03:32

Oh what a cultural adjustment. Thank you for being so sensitive to my language. I definitely would not have known what you meant if you said depo. So thank you.

Murray Guest  03:45

So I have been corrected by some of my American friends in the past on that one. So it’s one of those ones. But let’s talk about the depot. And how through this process, they needed some people to be based there and some working from home and how they make that work. And I think, to be honest, an ineffective leader and a leader that may be taking the easy route, would have just said, okay, you’re at home, you’re at work based on your job or your role. And just, you know, cut it down the middle. And to be honest, that is easier, and that is faster. But you know what, it doesn’t engage people. It doesn’t treat them like humans, it doesn’t consider what’s going on in their world and their life. And what this leader needed to do was actually, you know, pause and actually say, Who needs to be at home? Not ‘who do we need at work’, but who needs to be at home right now with what’s going on in the world? Yeah, so a totally different approach, which I know took time, took focus, took energy, and even felt difficult because it’s like hang on, we are putting people first. Hang on, but that is is important. And so what they did was they went through that process and didn’t take a long time, but also took some really valuable time and they identified that one of the leaders has a daughter who’s immune compromised. And through that process said, right, so it’s best for you to work at home for this next period of time. So that you’re okay, your family is okay. And she’s okay. And in having that come to surface as in, right, so how do we actually start to even use this as an opportunity for some improved succession planning and people stepping up. Which then there was a flow on effect, where we then had a leader that was working from home and someone else could step up into his role. And then someone else that normally works, let’s say, on the floor, stepping up again. So opportunity out of crisis. So everyone was looked after, everyone could do their role slightly differently. But then we had this great opportunity for development. And that, I think, is a really good example of that individualization and flexibility we want to talk about today.

Becky Hammond  06:11

Yeah, totally reminds me, or occurs to me in this moment that it takes a good deal of creativity. It’s not just the time but like thinking outside of the proverbial box, like, it says, Okay, this is the role that this person has always played. And this is what we need them to do, or what we need our organization to do. So how can we still get the same things done, and how people maybe take different rules or different priorities? Your story reminds me of the healthcare leader that I was working with, who had very similar outcomes of, okay, usually every person is in the office, there are zero remote workers when you are working in a healthcare setting, you know, pre March 2020. And but they said we want to we are committed to keeping these people employed. And so what can they do, they looked at, there was two particular people who had family members who were just higher risk. And they said, it’s not worth it for you to come into the office, we’re exposed to the general population every day. And so they were creative. They had to, you know, reorganize some things, readjust some things, people had to take on different responsibilities and roles, but I think the leader, the leader’s example of showing like, it’s okay, we can do this, you know, kind of gets back to the grace that we talked about in the first episode of this series, which is, you know what let’s all breathe a little bit, like breathe in and breathe out some grace and say, we can we can be flexible, we can individualize to the, to the people that have real human needs. You know, HBR, Harvard Business Review, wrote an article, I think, was back in 2011 2012, that just said, People aren’t assets. You know, we talked about like people saying, you know, people are assets. Well, people aren’t assets. They’re humans that need to be to be cared about and to be looked after as unique individuals, and not as every one of them being exactly the same as being a cog in the system.

Murray Guest  08:18

Yeah, and I think, additionally, Becky, I’m thinking about a conversation I had recently with a leader. And actually, I should say, it was a group of leaders where we were talking about our assumptions. And I know that as humans, we make assumptions all the time. As people we make assumptions, we make assumptions when we drive down the road that the car coming towards us is going to be on the other side of the road. And our brains need to make these, yeah, I was careful how I frame that one. And those assumptions we make in all areas of our lives, and we need to from a brain perspective, otherwise, we’d be focusing on absolutely everything. And we’d have that sense of overwhelm. And I think this is just raising to the awareness and in this conversation, of this group of leaders, about we can’t just assume what people are doing or can’t just assume that they can deliver exactly on their role if they’re working from home, or that they can work from home, or they can or they can do their job elsewhere. It’s about being present, having that grace and kindness that I loved our conversation on, and knowing our people to a depth that shows we care, but also, and this is where the difficulty is, I’m gonna call it, we want to know people but also have some boundaries there as well. So it does take some time and energy and focus, but it’s about this is true leadership.

Becky Hammond  09:47

Yeah, yeah. Reminds me of that concept of emotional templates that we talked about in Leaders Who Give a Damn program, of what you’re reminding me that like some of those things are things that we need, where we need to cut like, especially if they’re positive emotional templates that we can create those things, these assumptions, these filters of the situation that we’re about to go into. But when we find that we’re creating a negative emotional template or a negative assumption, that’s where we kind of as leaders, the best leaders, they check themselves. I was talking to a leader today who, man she’s so good at individualizing. She’s saying, you know, okay, I talked to this, I said, I said something to the effect of how is your team doing? And she’s like, Well, yesterday, I would have said great. And today, I’m not so sure. And so she had a conversation with one of her employees that she usually has great rapport, great trust with. And today, something happened, by the end of the call, it was clear that there was, there was something going on that there was either a lack of trust, or that there was just, maybe toes being stepped on, or I know, as a coach, I was helping her think through that, and what that might be. And I think one of her greatest strengths as a leader is that even in this sense of crisis, where you know, one of the true answers as to why things might be going wrong, is because people are tired, right? They are exhausted, they have been working more hours than they ever have. And she was doing a great job of just saying, Well, what is it for this person? You know, she and I, I coach from a Strengths Finder perspective. So we’re talking about the strength of that particular person, and what might be causing the riff or it might have caused this like, difference in interaction. And in the end, yeah, maybe there were some strengths related things about relator and significance and some different approaches that this leader could take. And so that’s individualizing. Right there. And then also just realizing, fatigue is setting in. And so what can we do to assume positive intent, go back to people with, go back to your your team with, like, hey, that didn’t go so well? What can we do to make that go better? Or, what do I not know that I should know, that will help me to tailor our conversations a little bit better.

Murray Guest  12:06

And I think that’s just another great example, Becky, of a leader that’s really being present, and, and really present to the needs of their team, and how they’re feeling. And I think the important part here for people to just reflect on also is, this doesn’t mean that’s taking away from your job, this is your job as a leader, this is a core element of being a leader. And I’ll even build on that and say, while it might feel like it’s taking away some of the conversation from where you’re up to with your projects, where you’re up to on some of your work, or where you’re up to and delivering on X, Y and Z. By having these conversations, it puts people in a space so they can deliver on their work and actually feel more engaged in their jobs. So I think we’ve got to just, and this has just highlighted so importantly, through this, this process, through this pandemic, how important we are connecting with our people on their individual needs. And a leader I was working with a couple of weeks ago, she told me she had to change the way she conducted her one on one conversations with her team. And it was a great awareness where she realized that it was all project based. It was all, where you’re at with your work. How are you delivering on the timelines? Have you been speaking to stakeholders. And the awareness she got was, Hang on, I’ve missed that leadership component. I’ve missed that conversation. I’ve missed the check in, where are you at? Like you’re leader, a great example. So she brought that in, and the shift on the productivity, the shift on how people were connected, and even communicating with each other shifted significantly, by her showing that care at the start of every one on one. Again, good practice and a simple change but made a big difference.

Becky Hammond  14:07

I love that it’s just the power of showing up first with, this is a human I’m talking to, kind of like, you’re not an asset, you’re not a to do list to me. It was challenging for people like me who are to do list kind of people, like okay, well we have these things that we need to take care of. Right. But it’s like you said, it’s not adding to your job, it IS your job to get to know them so that then you know if you’re going to be able to get through all that checklist of things. And the leader that I was working with who said, you know what, they started to do one word check ins at the beginning of every meeting. So you sometimes you feel like I don’t have time to like get everybody’s like how they’re feeling today and like you know, download everything about how their weekend was and all that. But if you’re having a team meeting, you know, it’s pretty powerful for people to go around the room. And say one word. You know what you don’t have to explain it, you don’t have to, it doesn’t have to be happy. It doesn’t have to be good, or it could be. But what happens if you go around the room and everyone says their one word like, this is how I’m coming to this meeting today, then you as a leader can individualize to the team or to that meeting, or like, if everyone in the room says, overwhelmed, exhausted, burnt out, then you know that you have a different situation than if most people are saying, you know, what, pretty good, or, you know, I’m feeling content today, or I’m relaxed. Those are very different experiences that you as a leader can then kind of tailor your to do list to after that.

Murray Guest  15:39

Such a simple process. But I can imagine the openness, the vulnerability, that creating the space for people to start to share how they’re feeling. And you know what I think a good leader in that situation might say, we need to pause the conversation about this project. And we need to maybe talk about what’s just come out of that review of how we’re all feeling to make sure we reconnect and how we are looking after ourselves and looking after each other in that moment. I do that often in my workshops, and around with teams and those themes of I’m feeling busy, I’m feeling overwhelmed and feeling tired. Because people, I feel, like are juggling, and we talked about this in one of our I think it was in the training we did a few weeks back. People feel like they’re juggling a lot more balls at the moment. So yeah, I think that check in from a leader is again, a simple step, but really impactful, shows you care as a leader. The bit I want to add, Becky, that’s so important is if you’re going to ask that question, be prepared for the answer, be prepared. Be prepared for what people say, because if they’re going to say, Hey, I’m feeling tired, or I’m feeling a bit lost, or I’m feeling overwhelmed or stressed, you know, we’ve given them the space to share that. Now let’s do something with that. Because if someone raises that, and we go, Okay, now, let’s move on to the projects.

Becky Hammond  17:07

Okay, that being said, check, check, check, right, like, yeah, what do you think? What What have you seen some of the best leaders do? Or what are what are some of your experiences of, you know, not derailing your entire project? You might not be able to, but really still addressing some of those, you know, what does it look like to be ready for the responses that people give you?

Murray Guest  17:32

Yeah, so I think that’s a really good point. And I think it’s that preparation. So being aware that if I’m going to ask that question that I’m already thinking about, okay, how do we support? How do we share so I know leaders that are thinking, Right, in my agenda that is a part of the process. And then what I’m going to make sure I can do is, I’ve got some suggestions that I might bring to the table, after more of a coaching approach. So for example, if people saying I’m a bit stressed, I’m a bit overwhelmed, or I’m feeling too busy right now. Okay, so the coaching approach would be so what are you going to do about that? Or what support do you need? Or what additional resources? Who could we delegate some work to? So ask some coaching questions, but as a leader, also having ready to bring to the table some ideas in case the team, you know, don’t quite get there. So but you know, in the start with that coaching approach, so I’d say that’s the first thing. The second thing is, you know, being very mindful on and listening with intent for anyone that needs follow up after that meeting. So one of those tailored one on one check ins. Yeah. So you might need to check in with someone and and catch up with them and say, Look, hey Becky, I noticed that right now, you’ve said you’ve got so much on your plate, you’re not too sure where to start. Let’s catch up after the meeting and talk through that so I can help you with some of the priorities on that work right now.

Becky Hammond  19:05

Yeah, it reminds me of a leader, one of the best leaders that I have worked with in the recent years who says that he, during this time of crisis, maybe it was probably about, I don’t know, six or seven weeks in where people are starting to feel that burnout. He said that he had just a conversation with one of his team members who came to him and just said, You know what, this is a lot. I don’t know, if I can manage this. I’m feeling completely overwhelmed. And as he just kind of stood, stood in that place, and had a listening ear, stood, I don’t know, he might have been sitting because he was probably on a zoom call at that point, but had a listening ear for her situation. You know, by the end, they were laughing together. And he was just kind of letting her know like, You’re not the only one that’s feeling like this and here’s some strategies that maybe we can try and, you know, he’s good at cracking jokes and such. And so they were laughing together, you know, high positivity, strength type leader. And, you know, at the end of the conversation, she just said, you know what I came in just feeling so down and I appreciate that I’m able to have a conversation with you that you’re willing to stop and talk to me. And you can always make me laugh, even if I feel like, you know, everything’s about to crash, crash and burn. So you know, that I feel like that’s an example of, of tailoring that one on one of, of knowing that it was not time to be like, I mean, it probably wasn’t even time to be like, Okay, well, let’s list out everything that you have going and see what we can eliminate it, you know, that might have been a helpful fix. But really, all she needed was that emotional connection, and that sense of being understood and being heard, and adding a little bit of levity back into her life at that time. So that leader just did a really good job of individualizing that experience so that he was helping her get what she needed in that moment.

Murray Guest  21:03

Yeah, I love that. And I love the practical examples with these great leaders that you work with Becky, because I think it helps us understand how this can look, in a day to day approach. I just want also flag I think what’s a really important distinction here. Leaders caring about their people is obviously important, something that we are so passionate about. But leaders also aren’t counselors. So it’s also striking that balance of showing you care, building that trust, but also being aware of when you may need to refer or suggest other support mechanisms your organization has to support that person as well. And just so I think that’s an important element that leaders need to be mindful of, and not stepping over and getting and also not being too emotionally invested. And show you care. Yeah. But at the same time, making sure that you keep some boundaries there as well. Yeah, I think the bit that I just add to that, explaining your intent is really important. If you are asking someone how they’re doing or you’re asking how things are, some people may be thinking, Oh, this is a bit personal, you’re diving in too quick. So it needs trust. But explaining your intent that the reason I’m doing that is because I do care about you, I want to make sure you’re okay. Some simple words to explain your intent go a long way.

Becky Hammond  22:28

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know, we’ve talked a little bit, kind of all weaving throughout these stories are some of the behaviors that we’ve seen of good leaders that individualize and are providing flexibility in this kind of lockdown time and after, we’ve talked a little bit about impact. What more would you say about the type of impact that being an individualizing leader, a flexible leader, really has on your team and your team culture and your end products?

Murray Guest  23:01

Well, I think the word we’ve said a few times is trust and 100% I think it builds trust, builds that greater connection between team members and the leader, also reduces stress, anxiety, and worry. I think it also builds employee engagement, it builds that connection to the team and that connection to the organization and the purpose. And you and I’ve talked about this in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program around, you know, the, I think it’s 70% of an employee’s engagement relates to their relationship with their manager. So if my manager shows, my leader shows, they care about me, then I’m engaged, and I’m going to show up. So there’s the impact there, isn’t just from human to human, but also from a business sense. So I think the other thing that also does is that creates a new way of working and a new team culture, that transition to this time right now where some businesses are working back in the office or back in their workplace. And then beyond that. Over the past few weeks, I’ve been running workshops with a range of clients. And I’ve been asking the question, Who wants things to go back to the way they were before this all started? I think you know the answer. Drumroll for the surprise. Yes. It’s been, I think around 200 people, and honestly, I’d be like, two people have said we want it to get back the way it was. Everyone has enjoyed or been inspired or appreciated or changed the way of working, been exposed to a different way and wants something out of that to continue, whether it’s the flexibility, whether it’s the start time, whether it’s working from home, whether it’s the type of work they do, it’s just so strong, so strong right now. And unfortunately, though, I was talking to a team recently, and they said that the message they got from a leader was when you go back into the work, it’s back to five days a week, exact same hours back to what we’re doing. And they’re all like, hang on, hang on, hang on. That’s not what we want. And there’s this conversation happening right now about how do we individualize? How do we take what’s worked for me and what’s going to work for the team going forward? Because otherwise, Becky, if we don’t do that, as leaders, there’s going to be massive, honestly, massive emotional mental impact and massive disengagement.

Becky Hammond  25:55

Yeah, yeah, that is a really striking, a striking story about, you know, an organization saying, you know, we’re just gonna go back to doing what we were doing. It’s not like, we’re asking you to do anything more than what you did before. Yet, people are starting to say, but look, I’m doing a great job. And look at all the less miles that are on my car, the less pollution that we’re putting in the air, the less number of hours I spent on the train, and you know, all the different elements, whatever kind of they’re pulling out as man, this was a real benefit to me, and I’m still doing a good job for you, aren’t I? You know, and yeah, it’s really fascinating.

Murray Guest  26:33

And I’m getting the chance to invest in my health and well being, whilst I’m not commuting into the workplace. Now, I’m not saying, and I don’t want to put my assumption out there for people to think that I’m saying everyone should work from home going forward. I’m not saying that. I know that’s not what you’re saying, either. I think what we’re very clear on is it’s the individual needs of the person and the team and the business and how they can all come together. Because there’s lots that has worked over these past few months. And I think from a habit point of view, if it takes 21 days to form a new habit, people have been forming new habits for over 90 days. And if we consider that, we consider that we’ve got people that have formed some new habits and new ways of working, and they’re getting locked in pretty solid. And, like you said, it’s working in the sense that they’re delivering on what the team needs as well.

Becky Hammond  27:31

Right, right. Since as you’re saying these things that I’m gonna take your Venn diagram approach, I feel like there’s a middle, right, there’s the me, there’s my team, there’s an organization, and where does that overlap? And, you know, as an individual team member as well, you know, you don’t just get to do whatever you want, right? There has to be some from the team and from the leader and from the organization. And I think for the first time we’re seeing that. That it can work when there can be a really great place of overlap of all those things, and still be focusing on the human and the individual and, and what people need. Yeah, really good.

Murray Guest  28:15

Yeah. I totally agree, Becky. And I think that’s a good way to, I think, wrap up this conversation and for leaders to actually take that pause, and maybe even get the piece of paper out or get out their device and think about those diagrams, those circles and how they do intersect. What do my individuals need, what do my team members need? What does our team need? What do I need? What does the organization need? And how do we map that going forward? Talk to your team. And really listen, and be prepared then to invest the time and shaping this amazing opportunity going forward. Because right now, there are so many different versions of work that is being developed and being implemented. And it’s about finding the one that works for you and for your team and for those individuals in your team.

Becky Hammond  29:11

Yeah. Now, I love that practical application of just kind of being able to see like, where do these things overlap? We’re not saying that, I think what I’m careful of is we’re not saying that every individual’s needs have to trump everything. I mean, that won’t work, right? It won’t work. Not everyone can get every thing that they feel like they need. Maybe they can, but most likely they can’t. And so where are those biggest sections of overlap? And how can we come to a solution that looks at the individual for their situation, the individual for their strengths. I think about individual ways to encourage and recognize each employee. I mean, this has been something that’s been a thing, you know, since the beginning of management, and it feels even more important in this time where people are feeling just more uncertain. And so as a manager, you know, one practical takeaway is just okay, think about who each of my team members are as an individual, and what can I do to encourage and recognize them for the work that they are doing during this time, and the value that they provide based on their individual needs and their individual strengths.

Murray Guest  30:24

And, of course, Becky, there’s a really great link here to Module Three in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program, which is knowing your people. And I know as you go through that module, there’s some resources there to help you invest in deepening that knowledge of your people, to connect with them on an individual level. So if you haven’t checked out that program, I would love you to check that out. Because I know that module links so strongly to what we’re talking about today.

Becky Hammond  30:51

Yep. And it leaves you with some real good, solid action planning guides and some practical next steps that you can take to individualize as a leader and even more when it comes to knowing who your people are, and being a leader that inspires them to follow. So yeah, definitely check that out if you haven’t, and we will be excited to continue this series about leadership in lockdown. Next week, whenever the next episode is in our fourth episode of this series, we will be talking about clarity. And clarity is something that Murray, you especially have been thinking about and are passionate about in this time, that you’ve been seeing the best leaders are those that create a sense of clarity, and there’s some interesting ways that they’re doing it and that you’re seeing that happen. So I’ll be excited to dive into that in the next episode.

Murray Guest  31:42

So Becky, if you expect to get a word in next time, you’re going to be severely disappointed. I am so passionate about clarity, and I am looking forward to talking about that with you. So thanks again so much. I love I love love our conversations and thanks everyone for listening.

Becky Hammond  32:01

Yep, and thanks to the inspiring leaders that are teaching us what it looks like to lead well in lockdown. Bye now

Episode 66 – Lockdown Leadership | Communication

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged where the best leaders are thriving and implementing changes to successfully take their team and organisation forward. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualization, Clarity, and Selfcare.

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Transcript

Becky Hammond  00:01

Hello, good morning. good afternoon, Murray. How are you today?

Murray Guest  00:06

I’m really good, Becky, thank you. It’s fresh morning here, winter, of course in the southern hemisphere, but I’m really appreciating the the coolness and I’m appreciating… Honestly, I’m really appreciating the sunrises each, each morning at the moment. And I’m loving starting my day chatting to you about leadership, something that we’re so passionate about. And so, tell me what are we getting into today?

Becky Hammond  00:29

It kind of sounds like a little bit like a game show. Right? Like, so what’s up next, right. Now, you know what this series we just, we one, you heard before, you might have caught that before it was about grace and kindness. And really what we’re talking about is about what are good leaders doing right now? And what has come out of this time of crisis? You know, we started asking ourselves, What are they doing? What did they do so well? And what did they learn maybe even the hard way during this crazy world crisis that that we see them carrying forward into what might end up being a new normal, or maybe uncertainty is the new normal. And so what works as a leader as we move into a time that that maybe feels just as uncertain, if not more practiced, at least at this point. And so the themes that we are talking about over these five podcasts are grace and kindness, which you can check in the last episode, communication, we’re talking about that today, individualization and flexibility, clarity, and taking care of self. So today, we are going to dive into this concept about communication. And communication is something that I think is, it’s an overused word, so maybe I would choose a different one. Or maybe we can define it in a way that really separates it from just like, okay, yeah, good communication is a good idea. What do we mean by communication, Murray?

Murray Guest  02:04

I think that’s a really good point can I just say, Becky, on communication. Over the years when I’ve been running workshops, and I have asked teams, what can we do better? And people say communication, and I go, Ugh. Because it’s like, it’s such a broad word. And it means I could ask 20 people to write down on a piece of paper in a room, what’s communication? I get 20 different answers. So you’re right, it means so much. It means so much. So I think that’s an important point that let’s be clear, when we say communication, what are we talking about, and also for people to think about what it means for them. The second thing, though, before we get into it, I just want to mention something. I’ve been running a leadership program with a team or a group of people at an organization this past couple of weeks. And the question I’ve been asking in every session is who wants things to go back to the exact same way they were? Before this all happened, before we were working from home, working in isolation? And I’ll say my quantitative analysis of these, you know, worked with 60 leaders in this group in the last two weeks, it’s been honestly like one or two people. It’s everyone wants it to, to change in some way, for it to stay changed with these new ways of working, there’s new flexibilities, there’s new communication processes happening. People don’t want it to go back to the way they were, they can see the value and the benefit. So I think that’s where these conversations are really important to actually take the time out and say, What is working? And how do we leverage that and keep that going?

Becky Hammond  03:46

Right, and not just fall back into the way we used to do things because we used to do them and when they were comfortable, and we knew how to do it that way, but rather really pushing yourself as a leader and as a team to say, you know, what might work better? And especially what might work better, because some things just won’t ever be the same?

Murray Guest  04:06

Hmm. I totally agree. And communication. Great question about when we say that, what do we mean, what are we talking about? So yes, there’s the word we use. There’s things that we say. But there’s also the the amount of listening we’re doing. So how much are we listening to each other, listening to our teams? And then is that the whole other part of our communication, which is the energy we bring, there’s the body language, there’s our hand gestures. There’s all those little messages that we provide people. I’ve got, quote, again, from someone that I love working with is, I can’t hear what you’re saying, because what you’re doing is so loud. So as much as we may be communicating by speaking something, it’s being lost through our behaviors as well. So the way we communicate is so much and of course with all the changes in our ways of working, a lot of the behavioral communication has been lost in zoom, and online meetings and things like that. So I think that’s something that we need to be mindful of then and to be honest, even tap into that even more to really watch and to really be focused in those in those meetings and conversations. So yeah. So communication, something which I know for the people I’ve been working with has been focused on, to see how that could be improved. And how that can be something which they take forward in the way they’re working back to whatever the new normal is. Yeah. So Becky, what’s been happening with some of the clients you’ve been working with? What have you been hearing about this?

Becky Hammond  05:45

It’s kind of interesting, because as you talk about, like, all the different aspects of communication, I also think about how it’s kind of important at every level, and in every space you occupy. And I think now more than ever, you know, we might have always said communication was important in our families and our work. But now we’re saying our families and our work might be together forever, or at least in new ways. And certainly they have been over the last several months. And so a couple different stories, conversations come to my mind about leaders who’ve been really effective. And communicating well, and having, sometimes that means having tough conversations, sometimes that means having the hard conversation, I think of a leader who they were running this really big event. And it didn’t go off. Well, from a technological standpoint, the end goal actually was better than they expected. So that was the silver lining. But when she was going back to talk to her team about what went wrong, on the tech side, there was there was some pretty big defensiveness, and she’s just kind of wondering like, Okay, how do I, how do I get the whole story. And as we were talking, I realized, if they don’t have this conversation, then trust is breaking down. And so she in the end, just said, in the end, she just asked for the straight story and said, I can back you up better to these other departments if I know exactly what happened, even if you are the one that was at fault, or you had some fault in this, you know, like, in general, most problems we have, every party has some fault. And what that did was it led to more trust, not less. So even though her leader that was working for her did have some like, ooh, I don’t know, that wasn’t really the best, you know, that wasn’t the best thing to do. So maybe it was a mistake, instead, build more trust, because they were able to have a conversation and really able to communicate about that particular thing. And so that’s one of the stories that stands out to me about the power of communication. And just the challenge of it. It’s not an easy thing to do as a leader.

Murray Guest  07:59

Yeah, I totally agree. And there’s lots of programs and literature out there about having courageous conversations. And I think if anyone wants to invest in having those conversations, you can check out some of that. And of course, we do talk about in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program, because having those conversations are what shapes the culture. And I think in the program, I might say something like every conversation is an opportunity to influence the culture. I think I say a number of times, I’m a big believer in it. And I think that’s something which we can’t lose sight of as leaders for every time we have those conversations, it’s going to influence the culture in some way. And that culture of trust that you just referenced, that that leaders generating and creating, through having those conversations and owning her part, I heard that as well. Owning her part of whatever happened is so important. There’s a quote, I want to share as well that I looked up in preparation for this one, this chat about communication, and it’s from Leonard Saffir, who’s a public relations executive. And what he says is, in crisis management, be quick with the facts and slow with the blame.

Becky Hammond  09:21

Plays so well back to our conversation about grace as well. Like there’s a pause there. There’s that breath if you’re practicing, taking that breath now to inhale grace and exhale grace to other people. You just pausing to take the facts and don’t just jump to conclusions.

Murray Guest  09:43

Yeah, and it’s something which you know, in the times of crisis that we start to realize how important communication is. And what I do hope is anyone that’s listening to this they actually take that timeout, take the pause to say okay, how has my communication adjusted through this process of working from home in different arrangements, and how’s it helping me be a better leader? And how can I keep that going forward? A simple process one of the teams that I’ve been working with was doing, they had a weekly meeting, which to be honest, wasn’t that effective. They felt like it could have been clear in the purpose, clear in the process that they were having are getting together. What was happening was, they would meet for, I think, was about an hour and a half, sometimes for a week. But they wouldn’t chat that often throughout the week, throughout the week, you know, every day, there might have some project meetings, but not that good effective alignment as a team. And since working from home, they’ve implemented a daily huddle, where every morning, every morning without fail, they’re on zoom. And they are connecting as a team, and not just about what the priorities are today, what do we need to deliver on, where we’re up to with some of our challenges and goals, and some of their internal customers which was a big focus for this team. But, how are we? And they actually have a measure through to five, of where’s our health level at? And actually share that, and they check in on that. And they talk about that. And they support each other. So I actually, luckily, at the moment, I’m working with that team, and they were talking about this. And I said, Okay, so who wants this to continue when you go back in the office? And everyone’s like, Yes, me, me, me, we have to keep doing this. The value of the alignment, the engagement, they’re feeling more connected. And they are talking the other day about the speed of agility. So with this communication increase, and here’s a thought, Becky, I’d love your perspective on this, I think every team needs to talk more frequently, more regularly. Because I think too often we’ve got these old processes where, Oh we’ll just talk about this in the meeting, you know, each week or each month, or whatever it is. But when we talk more frequently for a shorter period of time in effective meeting, it builds that alignment, builds the understanding and builds that speed of decision making.

Becky Hammond  12:24

Yeah, yeah, well, the phrase that comes to mind, and I don’t know if I just made this up, or if I heard this somewhere, so let’s just be honest about that. To me, in my mind, it says less more frequently, right? So like this team that was having hour and a half meetings, they’re not meeting any more, right, they’re meeting the exact same amount of time, if they’re meeting every day of the week for 15 minutes, yet, they feel more connected, they feel less bored, they feel more engaged with each other, they understand their team better. They, what I’m just hearing you say right now, are working together better as a team, which I assume also means like getting to their goals in a more effective manner as well. And so, yeah, I love that I, I think to be efficient, and be connecting with people and working towards goals. I mean, to me, that’s a dream as a leader.

Murray Guest  13:20

Yeah, yeah, high Achiever for Becky, they’re getting…

Becky Hammond  13:26

Hey, I put that connection in there for you and your relator. So.

Murray Guest  13:31

So something I think that you started to mention before, and I might have cut you off. So I do apologize. But that was my communication coming out. But what I think is something that has been highlighted here in the past couple of months is also the importance of communication at home. And what I’ve been sharing with some teams I’ve been working with is team meetings at home. And so we have team meetings at work, you know, what’s on our plate and what projects, but we need to have those at home as well. And Tammy and I have been having team meetings for some time. And we explore a whole range of things of you know, what’s in the calendar for the children, what’s on our calendar, who’s coming, who’s going, you know, who needs the bandwidth the most on the Wi Fi, whatever, who needs the quiet time in the house. So stop talking, you know, so we can do all that. But I think I’d like to know what you’re hearing as well about this need for the increase of communication and clarity at home as well.

Becky Hammond  14:37

Yeah, yeah, there’s one leader that brings to mind who actually has always worked from home so she runs her own business from home. But now all of a sudden she doesn’t have a nanny. She doesn’t have her kids in school. Her husband is a teacher, is now at home working as well. And one of the things I was just most impressed with by her is how they brought communication as their main tool for thriving during this time, they just said, Okay, we’re gonna, I mean, communicate about the same things that you’re talking about, like, Okay, I have this important call at this time, you know, as a video recorded call, we need, I need all the bandwidth, or I need the kids out of the house for these two hours or we’re going to have constant, you know, bickering in the background of all my, you know, all my recordings or of my coaching calls. And so I was just very impressed how she brought that to the forefront. You know, this is a person who had been married for a long time, they’ve been working together for a long time in terms of running their family. But it was the first time that they really had to, like you say, have a team meeting about what, what is it gonna be like to run and operate here. And, you know, I have to always bring it back to this big overarching theme of grace. Because as you communicate, you’re offering grace to each other, you’re giving each other opportunities to compromise and to give and to take a little bit and to know that it’s not going to be, it’s not easy for either one of you in this particular situation, yet, it’s, it’s a worthy thing to fight for that. That solid communication, everyone feels like they’re operating on the same page.

Murray Guest  16:14

You know, what the other thing that I’m picking up with this theme of grace is also this theme of removing the assumptions or validating our assumptions. So we’re running off them as part of life and the way we live, but with this, this need to actually bring to the fore and talk through it. So we’re not just making an assumption of a, you know, that I’m going to need this time. Because I need the quiet time. All right, you know, no, actually, let’s talk about it. Let’s make it clear. Let’s make it over and work through that. And I’m hearing how people are getting that the importance and the impact that’s having. So it’s removing those assumptions, removing the stress. So yeah, definitely.

Becky Hammond  16:58

Yeah. So what would you say kind of are the common behaviors or actions that leaders I mean, like, so we’re talking about communications, there’s some some really good stories that we’ve heard some of it’s about, you know, about building trust. What, what are some of the practices that you feel like these are the key parts of what good communication looks like, coming out of crisis and kind of into even an uncertain time.

Murray Guest  17:28

Yeah, so I think what pops into my head first on this, Becky is having that conversation sooner. So I think about the difference between great managers and good managers, and great managers act sooner. And I think that’s one of the key things is communicating sooner, not waiting, whether that’s one on one or with the team, but having those conversations sooner. So that’s one thing. Second thing is being aware that it may be difficult. And even making that clear with the person talking about it, might be a tough conversation, but saying, hey, look, I know this might feel a bit icky. This might be a bit clunky, but I know it’s something we need to talk about. So you actually put that out there. Because that will then ease the tension. I think the other thing is, don’t rush it. Don’t be like, hey, it’s before we’re about to start our meeting. And I’ve got two minutes to tell you this is really important thing, which we have never talked about and blah. So you allow yourself again, the grace and the kindness for you and the person you’re talking to or the people through the time to have that conversation. And to do that effectively, you might need to do a bit of preparation. So a leader I was talking to this week, he needs to provide some feedback as a colleague, not someone he leads, but a peer. And he’s not happy with the way they’ve been interacting on a project. And we had a really valuable conversation about how he’s going to prepare for that conversation, not just go in and blurt it out. So again, that preparation is really important. And again, how you can show up with some empathy and kindness for that person. I think the other part is being open to owning your stuff as well. So with communication, it’s about how can we be future focused, solution focus, moving forward. And what’s your contribution? And when you own your stuff, when you show that vulnerability that opens up the space for someone else to own theirs as well. And that takes courage and courage creates a space for other people to own theirs as well.

Becky Hammond  19:41

That’s true. Yeah. And you’re talking about being a good manager versus a great manager. Another thing that great managers do in this concept of communication is they individualize their communication. The best leaders that I’ve ever met, really understand their team. I mean, kind of this goes back to knowing your people from Leaders Who Give a Damn program, that when you really know them, you can individualize your communication. And then their communication becomes much more effective. If you know that someone loves recognition and praise, then you can start every conversation with a genuine specific recognition and praise, right? Or if you know that you need time to think about things, you can give them a little, you know, heads up. But first, before you have a homerun conversation, saying, Hey, you know, I want to talk about this XYZ. And so I wanted to give you a little bit of time to think about it. I mean, those two examples, like there’s, you know, hundreds of different examples of ways that can utilise communication.

Murray Guest  20:49

Well, the bit that I think, and you and I are very passionate about strengths, and I think about knowing the strengths and preferences of people and how they like to be communicated with not to, with, and the one that I see comes up quite a bit is that context. And knowing when you’re communicating with someone how important context is to them, some people it’s not so important that might not be that, that big for them to know the detail, know the why, know the past and others, it is so important, and knowing that changes how that conversation’s going to go. Because I’ve seen it when that context has been left out. And it’s important to someone and they still just don’t get the why or the how and and they’re not engaged to it. And it honestly just doesn’t land. Whereas if someone has that importance to them, and you know that and, as you said, individualize the communication and embrace that, they’re going to really listen, and you’re going to have a much better conversation.

Becky Hammond  21:48

Yeah, and you’re going to be less frustrated as a leader too, right? Because more of your things are going to land, more of the things you want to communicate are going to compute, that you’re going to have a more rich dialogue back and forth, instead of just like, here I’m communicating to you. And yet, you don’t, you don’t know if it lands, you don’t know if it really sticks, if it’s really accepted and understood. And so you’ll be less frustrated, if you realize like, Oh, this person needs lots of context, don’t be, you know, I don’t need to be frustrated by that, I just need to provide that. And now, they’re going to be on board with the, you know, the next steps or at least more readily on board with the next steps.

Murray Guest  22:26

And as we talk about in Leaders Who Give a Damn program, we talk about self awareness. And there’s the self awareness about our own blind spots and our own communication preferences. And being aware of that, how they might show up. So yes, we want to tailor our communication for those people we’re talking with, but also how we might have our own blind spots, which are going to maybe not match this and just being aware of that, and, and being a bit flexible about that. So we can be effective in that communication. Something we talk about in one of our future conversations Becky, just want to plant the seed here, it’s really important, is the importance of clarity. And it’s such a theme that I know you and I are going to talk about with some passion. And we’ve seen this. And of course communication and these more frequent, regular, short conversations, bring that clarity. And with clarity, we reduce stress, we reduce anxiousness, we increase engagement, we actually improve the alignment and productivity. So communication and clarity go beautifully together.

Becky Hammond  23:32

Yeah, and have such an amazing impact not just on your team, but on yourself as a leader as well, just like, I can breathe easier. I mean, I know for a fact that that leader who didn’t really want to dig into the details of all the things that went wrong on that tech issue. When she did, she breathed easier, because now she can trust this person going forward as well. So it wasn’t just about resolving the past, but trusting going forward. And in that communication piece was a huge part of her feeling a new level of trust with that, that person.

Murray Guest  24:10

So a couple of suggestions here I want to put out Becky, it sort of builds beautifully on your individualization of communication that you mentioned. So one of them is, and this was a quote from a manager recently I was talking to, he said, Everything doesn’t need to be a zoom meeting.

Becky Hammond  24:28

Wait, what? It doesn’t?! 

Murray Guest  24:31

No, no. And his perspective that he’s been feeling is, Okay, we’re all working from home, hey, everyone, let’s embrace zoom, and just zoom, zoom, zoom zoom all the time. And he’s like, I’m so over it. He said, can’t we just have a quick phone call sometimes. And I think that the evolution was everything was being emailed. And then now we sort of moved into these online meetings. So I think take the pause in your communication and what’s the best platform for this conversation? Is it zoom? That could be, but it also might be an email, or it might be a quick phone call, might even be a text message. But knowing what’s going to be best. Another one I want to quickly share. And that is don’t schedule your meetings for 60 minutes or 30 minutes.

Becky Hammond  25:21

What what, like 54 minutes or something?

Murray Guest  25:25

Hey I like 54 minutes. Imagine being invited to a meeting for 54 minutes, people are going to say, What? Why is it 54? What I do with the other six minutes, what happens? You know what, with that six minutes take a breath. We do talk about this in Leaders Who Give a Damn. And it’s just a little tweak. It’s a little twist. So many teams and leaders have back to back meetings. If we give ourselves some grace, give ourselves some time. You know what, I’ll put my hand up here and say, I reckon that what you want to cover in 60 minutes is going to get covered in 50 minutes or 54 minutes, as you said. Or not 30 minutes, but 25. And what they will give you is some time, give you some time and some grace to go to the bathroom, to get a drink, to get to eat. If you’ve got back to back meetings. I challenge people. Stretch. Let’s get out of our seats. I challenge people to try this and see the impact. And actually let us know and share it online. I’d love to know. Yep, tag Becky and I. And what’s the impact when you’ve started setting meetings for 54 minutes or 23 minutes? And it’s going to change people’s mindset and start to rewire their brain. Again, something different is happening. And let’s just give it a shot and see what difference it makes.

Becky Hammond  26:53

Yeah. And just one little additional challenge to that. Try not to fill those extra six minutes with checking your email real fast between meetings, right? I mean, sometimes you got to do that. Or maybe you’re checking it in your meeting. But the the point of that is to create space, and to create a mental space for the next meeting, maybe so that you’re communicating well in the next meeting, and not just kind of blowing off steam from the last meeting. And so as you do that, you’re kind of being intentional about what do I use those six minutes for, those five minutes for, that are in between meetings as well.

Murray Guest  27:27

100% totally agree. And I think that’s a great build on the shortened meetings that and to what we’re talking about here in leadership about investing in yourself, giving yourself that time and your team. Because when you do that there’s a ripple effect as well. So Becky, to wrap us up, I’d love you to share what some of the links here that you see with our Leaders Who Give a Damn program as well.

Becky Hammond  27:56

Yeah, yeah, you know, over seven modules, Murray and I have seven conversations. And in those seven conversations, we talk about self awareness, well being, knowing your people, managing perceptions, prioritizing conversations, valuing relationships at every level, and tackling busyness. And I would say that communication is a common thread that is kind of weaved throughout every single one of those modules. And, and kind of like today where we try to leave you with a couple of like, well, what can I do with this? That’s that’s what we do in the Leaders Who Give a Damn program as well. That’s even more robust with worksheets and action items and just kind of an action plan for how can I really put these things into place so that my leadership does make an impact so that I am a leader that other people just are hankering to follow, are inspired to follow. And so if you’re enjoying conversations like this podcast, I think you’ll really, really enjoy the Leaders Who Give a Damn program.

Murray Guest  28:57

I totally agree. And I’ve loved our conversations on that program just as much as this one today. And just getting to share the great things that leaders are doing that are working and what we know have worked over the years as leaders ourselves. So again, Becky, this has been awesome chatting about the importance of communication and I look forward to some of those tags as people try some of these little tips we’re talking about. So thank you again, so much.

Becky Hammond  29:25

Yeah, this has been wonderful. And our podcast number three in this series, we’ll be talking about individualization and flexibility. So stay tuned for that one, we’ll love to have a conversation about what that means as a leader and what it can mean into this kind of new period coming out of crisis. So we’ll chat later, Murray.

Murray Guest  29:45

Yep. See you on individualization. Thanks, Becky. 

Becky Hammond  29:48

All right. Bye.

Episode 65 – Lockdown Leadership | Grace & Kindness

Across this 5-part podcast series, I chat with Becky Hammond from Isogo Strong and unpack some common leadership themes that we have seen stand out during this crisis. As we’ve coached and worked with leaders over the past several months, themes have emerged that are making the best thrive, and even make changes that they are keeping into the future. These themes include Grace & Kindness, Communication, Individualisation & Flexibility, Clarity, and Taking Care of Self.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:00

So it’s June 2020. And it has been an unprecedented 2020 for so many reasons. In Australia, we’ve had bushfires, there’s been crisis around the world. And of course, we’ve had COVID-19. So many people working from home, their lives and livelihoods impacted. I am so fortunate and appreciative of my health at the moment, and I know a lot of the leaders I’ve been talking to have that renewed perspective. The other thing is, in catching up with my great friend and colleague, Becky Hammond, we’ve been talking about some of those leadership themes that have been shining through right now. And how they’ve been so important in leading teams and leading ourselves to be honest, through these challenging times. And we’re going to explore those key themes in a series of conversations, which I’m so excited to do, because I absolutely love catching up with Becky, and I love the knowledge and insights she brings. So Becky, looking forward to talking with you today. 

Becky Hammond  00:59

Yeah, I’m looking forward to it as well. It seems like this has just been something that kind of naturally, organically came out of conversations that we’ve been having not only together about, you know, our work together with leaders who give a damn, but also with the conversations with leaders that we’ve been having, you know, I mean, I would say since what, early to mid March, and that who have been dealing with world crisis and what that has meant for their individual lives, personally in their families, and then also in their role as leaders and with their teams. So there’s just there been some themes that have stuck out and there’s, I don’t know, what did we decide? There’s five or so themes that we’re going to just kind of have some conversations around and really try to provide some actionable next steps like, Okay, this is what some of the best leaders are doing. And so how can I put a couple of these little behaviors into my own leadership to make a difference now, even as we’re kind of coming out of crisis, those themes are grace and kindness – we did a whole free training on that which man, this is this one’s packed. There’s communication, individualization and flexibility, clarity, and then taking care of self. So over the next five podcasts, we’ll be diving into each of those in more depth. And today, we’re talking about grace and kindness.

Murray Guest  02:30

Yeah, you’re exactly right. I remember a few weeks back, man, I’m losing track of time and weeks at the moment. But yeah, we talked about the importance of grace in our leadership and how important that theme is. And you’re right, Becky, there’s these leaders that I’ve been connecting with over these past eight weeks. And they’ve been sharing with me what’s working and what’s not. And there’s been some real key themes coming out of that. And this idea about leading with more grace, leading with more kindness with their people. People’s situations have been turned, really upside down in so many ways. Companies having to find ways and systems and processes and cultures, to be honest, to have people work from home, and have people feel empowered, trusted and supported to do their work at home in very different unique situations, while at the same time worrying about their lives, their health of themselves, their family, and the people they love. So leading with grace and kindness is just so important. Because you know what, we are talking about people, we are talking about humans. And I want to go back to my first little point that has been so important is this new perspective and gratitude that we have for those people, and for our own lives and those people that we have in our lives. So Becky, I just want to, before we jump into this, when you think about grace, when you think about what that looks like, what do you think when we say leading with grace looks like? What’s your sort of definition there?

Becky Hammond  04:07

Yeah, you know, I think a lot about this concept myself and I, there’s a definition that I have loved and I teach my kids which is unmerited favor. So it’s giving favor where you don’t deserve it. And I think that looks like giving yourself and others a break. And, and expecting the best or thinking the best. Assuming the best I guess is the word I’m looking for, assuming the best in the situation, and giving a break when the best isn’t actually happening.

Murray Guest  04:44

And I think I just also agree totally on that idea of assumptions. And as humans we’re making assumptions all the time. As leaders, we’re making assumptions about people. We make assumptions of our partners and our children and and I think it’s about, maybe honestly, in this time resetting those assumptions and thinking, Okay, what assumptions am I making and are those assumptions filled with grace? Are they filled with kindness? And there was a group I was working with recently, a group of leaders. And I actually, I said something which had a bit of a discussion happened around, it was a bit maybe a bit controversial at the moment. But I said, No leader should be assuming that their team members can deliver on the exact same work they were doing before they started working from home, we just can’t make those assumptions. And later on, of course, we’re going to talk about individualization and now leadership and how important that is. But you’ve had some leaders you’ve been working with who have been doing this really well. And you’ve got a couple of stories that I think would be great to hear about that help you understand what, you know, what this grace looks like in reality.

Becky Hammond  05:54

Yeah, in action. Yeah. Cuz I think it’s easier to say than do and I think that’s the thing that’s been interesting is like, the leaders that I’ve been talking to you say, Yeah, I just, I think my strategy needs to give myself more grace, or I need to give my team more grace. Well, what does that really look like in action? One leader that I was talking to you said, you’re not going to get it right. And just kind of like, it’s been her mantra. And I think that, to me, feels like grace in action, to give yourself a break. I mean, it’s good, that idea of giving yourself a break to know in advance that you’re going to make mistakes, especially in a situation and unprecedented situations that you’ve never been in before, and no one has ever been in before. She said that she was sitting, and that there was a younger colleague who was sitting in a board meeting and said something to the effect of, you know, well, this is my first pandemic, so I don’t really know what I’m gonna do. And she’s like, yeah, it’s everyone’s first pandemic, right? We don’t know, we don’t, we’re not, we’re not going to get it right every time. So I feel like that’s grace in action. And that same leader was, I feel like she was giving her, she had some really tangible stories in her own life of how she was able to live that out. One of those had to do with a project timeline. She’s somebody who is high in the Clifton strengths responsibility theme. And so for her, like, meeting a deadline was really, really important. And one night she had these budgets due and she realized that she could stay up until two in the morning and get them done. And technically get them in on time, because it was in before the next day, responsibility, you share that strength too.

Murray Guest  07:41

So I totally connect with this story.

Becky Hammond  07:46

But she was exhausted. And what she, as she stepped back and kind of looked at her situation, she said, You know what, I’m not going to be giving my best work, there could be errors in this, I could just miss something, I could miss something big. And so instead, she wrote a little note to her colleagues and said, I need to submit this tomorrow. And I will do it with fresh eyes. And it will get in. And so at three o’clock the next day, she submitted something that she was proud of, and that she knew wasn’t gonna have errors in it. But that type of, that type of grace to herself was not something that she was accessing very often, prior to this crisis situation. Because maybe, because she didn’t have to as much, things just weren’t as stressful and weren’t, they didn’t have as much pressure. But also because her life wasn’t as complicated as it is, as it is now working from home with kids and husband at home. And you know, all the different variables that, you know, that we need to give our ourselves grace for.

Murray Guest  08:48

Yeah, and I think, I love that we, you know, talk about our role as leaders and the people that we lead, but there’s also leading self. And here, I’m hearing so strongly that importance of how can I be kind to myself, how can I show myself some of that grace as well, because we need to look after ourselves as much as we do the people we lead. And I actually, the bit that’s popped into my head, Becky, as we were exploring this great example is, there’s possibly I think some things that were happening before, I’d say COVID-19 hit. And as a leader, that’s just highlighted the importance of those things. And what I mean by that is, yes, I had grace in my leadership, yes I was kind, but now I need to do it even more. So now I need to actually think even more consciously about where I’m investing my time. And the messages I’m sending, and the way I’m doing that. So that changing language, as you said, we’re not going to get it right. While that’s so small, in a few words, but so powerful. And, and, and then to extend that to, you know, I’m actually going to have a bit of courage and call a colleague and say look, I just can’t get it done. I’m gonna get to it tomorrow.

Becky Hammond  10:03

Yeah, that does take courage.

Murray Guest  10:05

I was gonna say, similar, a leader I was talking to they were talking about changing their language as well from the expectations on their team from not asking for something by close of business, to start of the next day. 

Becky Hammond  10:23

And how did that make a difference? 

Murray Guest  10:25

Yeah. So, again, I think it builds beautifully off your example of changing the culture and changing it to be okay to work in with some grace of the challenges that everyone’s got in their life, with children or home situation, whatever that may be, to say, Yes, I need this back, I need a report or some data or some information. But I can wait till the start of tomorrow. So what that might mean for this person is I’ve got some things I need to do this afternoon. I can actually get into that a bit later on. Yeah, maybe after dinner, which is something we probably wouldn’t normally do and encourage because we want to, but that’s just become so blurred. But what it created was grace, and also created flexibility. And the team said, Hey, we really appreciate knowing that.

Becky Hammond  11:15

That’s really cool. One of the things that comes to my mind when I think about grace and kindness, too, is not, it’s not the big things. It’s not as much the big things that we’ve seen the leaders do, but also kind of some of the little things, little ways that, you know, maybe don’t have anything to do with the actual business product that you’re producing, but that they are doing to create a sense of grace and kindness to crew to be a leader leader who exudes that I know, you have a couple examples of that as well.

Murray Guest  11:46

Yeah, and another one, which we hadn’t talked about before that I was only exploring this week with a leader. And she was talking about how powerful it is to actually observe the behavior. And she, she just had that reminder around, people will say something like, yeah I’m not going to work all through the night. And yeah, yeah, I’m having lunch. And you know, but what she said, for her kindness in her leadership, she was really mindful of, actually, they’re saying that, but their behavior is showing, and actually, really constructively challenging them on their behavior and showing that kindness and resetting those expectations. So I thought that was really good from her doing that. And of course, the big one, which I talked about in my podcast earlier this year, was a local manufacturer near where I live, who, to be honest, they make big dishwashing machines for restaurants and cafes, and all that. And diners, as you would call them, Becky.

Becky Hammond  12:48

I don’t know if I’ve ever used that word.

Murray Guest  12:54

Their world, their business took a you know, a big hit, a big stop, because all of that just finished. And all those businesses were closed down. And the leader of that business and I had a really good chat. And he said what he was aware of is people in that business had recently bought houses. These were employees that had new mortgages, new families, and they were going to have their livelihoods impacted if they didn’t have a job, if they weren’t able to pay their mortgage, and like very serious situations. And so they pivoted very quickly, and I think it was like 10 days, very, very quickly, and started manufacturing hand sanitizer in bulk and providing that and selling that. The fantastic thing is they’ve been very, very busy. They are now moving back into their normal manufacturing as well because you know, lockdown laws are changing. But what I’m really glad to say is also the leader was really aware of the of the importance of the culture, the communication, and keeping everyone engaged throughout that process. And then another great thing is they’ve been recognized locally, in the media, in newspapers and on the TV just for doing that. So yeah, just a really great story about Yes, it’s a pivot and yes it’s innovation, but there’s a real kindness and grace in that as well.

Becky Hammond  12:59

Right? Because it sounds like it was motivated by trying to keep people employed. Not necessarily even, I mean part of it is the result, right, but not necessarily even motivated by trying to keep their business afloat, which of course, was an equal concern, right. But what can we do to help keep these people employed? And what can we do to help meet a need that the world has right now? I mean, talk about extending grace, for yourself to the people that work for you to the entire world. That’s pretty amazing example.

Murray Guest  14:51

Yeah. And, you know, some people might be listening to them thinking, I can’t do that in my business. I can’t make that that big change. I can’t have that innovation. So I think what it’s also about is thinking about the small little things like some of those examples of the language and the also the very small messages you can send your team. So one I’d love to share is, I know about a couple of leaders who I’ve been talking to recently who have really started to focus in on where’s the team at? Where’s the energy of the team? How are they feeling at the start of their meeting? Because as someone saying to me recently, it was a bit novel, hey, we get to work from home isn’t this great? This is new. I get to work from home. And yet, there’s energy there. And I’m working from home. And next to me is my child who’s drawing and this is fun. And then after a few weeks, it was like, Oh, this is hard work. 

Becky Hammond  15:51

And he doesn’t want to draw anymore. Yeah, you know, they’re like, throwing the crayons and eating them. And yeah.

Murray Guest  15:59

And, and another lady this week was talking about how she often is working, and next thing the cat is on the keyboard. So there’s that our human children, and also the the pet children as well as challenges. Yes. So after the novelty has worn off, and we’ve sort of in the hamster wheel, the importance of leaders of leading with grace and kindness to actually not just push through in an agenda, not just push through this as our standard meeting approach, but actually doing that pause and saying, how are we? How are we feeling? And do we actually need to talk more about that right now than what we thought we’re going to talk about, which is an update on some projects or some tasks, because what’s more important is you and your well being not that project, because you know what, that could slide a little bit because I care about you. And if you think just bring that into your language, and your approach can just have such a big ripple effect, to not just how someone feels, but then their engagement, and you’ll get the productivity as well.

Becky Hammond  17:09

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it’s sometimes hard to make that connection, right. Like, it’s hard to make that like, you know, what, part of me bristles a little bit when you say, well, we don’t have to, you know, we have to concentrate on that initiative, even though that’s due tomorrow, right? Rather, we should be focusing on the energy of our team and how people are really doing. But just like you said, there’s like that there’s a ripple effect. That, that in the end, you will get that thing done for tomorrow, and you will get it done happy, right? People will enjoy getting those things done, and potentially even show up even more engaged and ready for the next project.

Murray Guest  17:49

Yeah, well, I think the bit there, and I think you’re right, we still have things that need to get done. We still have tasks, projects, goals that need to be delivered on right. And it’s about considering how we are feeling, considering where we’re at, considering how individuals are at, how do we bring that to the table in a constructive, supportive way to then deliver on what we need to deliver on? So do we need to provide more support? Do we need to move resources? Do we need to start to share the workload? How are we exploring it, discussing that instead of just again, making some assumptions? Right? Now I want to know about flowers, and a leader you’re working with who did something which I thought was very, very beautiful, just such a powerful thing to do.

Becky Hammond  18:38

Yeah, and it really is powerful. And so, so simple, so, so easy. Right during towards the beginning of the stay at home orders in the town where this person works, she decided to go to a flower shop. So you know, when that was still open, and supported the local flower shop and bought some flowers, and went and delivered them to each person’s house on her leadership team with a handwritten note, and flowers, and she didn’t even ring the doorbell, she just left them at the door and then sent a text message that said, Hey, something’s at your door. So it was completely you know, at the time, especially because people were, you know, we’re very nervous about being anywhere near each other. They, she just, you know, was respectful of what was going on. But then also recognizing you’ve been putting in a lot of work, you’ve been putting in a lot of hours. In this particular industry was one that didn’t come to a standstill. In fact, they were having to figure out more and more things that they that they’ve never had to figure out before and refunding a lot of money to people who had already paid. And so they were feeling extremely stressed and working days and days and days in a row by that point, and this little gesture this little act of kindness. Just it, it put breath into the lives of the leaders that were working so tirelessly for her and forth for the organization.

Murray Guest  20:14

I love that. And it’s such a great example of grace in action. Because as you said at the start, it’s, it’s without expectation of it coming back to you. It’s without, to be honest, it’s with surprise. So it’s not like she knocked on the door and said, Hey, here’s your flowers, I want you to see that I’m delivering them. It was very much, I’m just doing this as a gift of appreciation, and to brighten your day. And she didn’t need to be there for that. So and you’re right, yes, there would have been some costs there. But it wouldn’t have been, you know, astronomical. But the value I’m sure people felt when they saw that would have been, you know, much more than the cost of it itself. And very similar, but a bit different. A leader I know, they, in their organization, again, very similar, busy, even busier. But they needed to run these Lunch and Learn sessions, which a lot of companies do, where they might provide lunch, or you bring your own lunch. So they’ll running those over zoom, and what this leader did, so everyone’s working from home at lunch and learn. So prior to the lunch and learn, sent everyone a voucher for Uber Eats. So the encouragement was, you know, contact someone in your local area. And luckily, everyone could, and organize something that you want to eat. That’s your thing. So it might have been Mexican or Italian or a bit of pizza, what it was doesn’t matter. But that was your thing, and have that delivered. So everyone’s opening up their Uber Eats bag for the lunch and learn together. So a bit of cost there. But again, it was, Hey, I’m being kind in my leadership. I’m being appreciative in his again, surprise to the team. 

Becky Hammond  22:09

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. It’s just a special way to be creative. I mean, they, they probably were providing lunches during lunch and learn pre March, right? And now they’re just doing it in a different way, in a way that would be surprising and delighting. And, you know, I mean, that’s the thing with grace, you say it’s like, it’s unmerited. It’s not like, it’s not like the person is expecting accolades, right, but also the person who receives it. They’re just doing their job, right. I mean, at this point, they’re just doing their job. It’s not like they’re, they deserve to have Uber Eats show up, or they deserve to have flowers and a note and a handwritten note, yet the leader is offering grace by giving that to them when it goes beyond it goes above and beyond just recognizing that it has nothing to do with their performance, but everything to do with that desire to kind of operate from grace and kindness.

Murray Guest  23:08

Yeah, and I think there’s a renewed perspective, there’s a renewed gratitude. There’s a renewed engagement, and even connection, if you think of those those flowers, or, yeah just the flowers, everyone in that team thinking, hey, we’ve all got flowers today. Yes, we are working from home, we are miles apart. But you know what, we’re all connected still, we’re all so connected. And same with the Uber Eats as well. And I know that that gratitude has been renewed in a lot of leaders I’ve been talking to and how they are refreshing that in their perspective to help them and help their team. And I know for me, it’s something which I’ve really drawn on in these past eight weeks, around my family, and around the chance to see my children exercising together, the chance to be more creative. Interestingly, Becky, I don’t I think we’ve talked about this, but my wife and I, Tammy and I’ve played backgammon every afternoon for the past eight months, not eight months, weeks, it’s felt like eight months, eight weeks, eight weeks, I think we’ve missed two days. And it’s only just for 15 minutes, you know, and she’s been teaching me and she’s much better than me, let’s be honest. But it’s the simple smallest thing, which, you know, there’s there’s some great benefit for strategic thinking coming out of it. But it’s more of a connection. And that would not have happened out of this process out of you know, what’s happened to us. So I think there’s something about taking the time to pause and we talk about the power of the pause quite a bit to have that gratitude of what we’ve got and how that helps us because that links I think beautifully to that kindness as well. 

Becky Hammond  24:57

Yeah totally. And when you think about the impact That you are having as a leader when you’re operating from grace, this is not something that’s easy to choose. It’s not something that’s really easy to do. Because you might not feel like I mean, even simple things like not feeling like going to the store and getting flowers or writing a note, you’re busy too. You’re just as busy. You are maybe busier than your team of leaders that you’re leading. Yet, yet, there’s an impact that goes that, just goes miles and miles or kilometers and kilometers, excuse me. You know, and when I think about the impact, I’m thinking like, well, what’s the alternative? Do we want, you know, if what we’re trying to build is compassion and trust and hope through offering grace, like the alternative is like begrudging, shame based perfectionistic leadership that’s rigid and presumptive and, you know, like that, when I put those two things side by side, even though grace is harder, the results that you get from grace and kindness are so much more significant and so much more human. That you say, okay, maybe it’s worth the extra effort.

Murray Guest  26:17

Yeah, and I think the slowing down, to be honest, the slowing down, that does come with being a bit more graceful being a bit more kind, and leadership might feel like it’s taking more time, it’s slowing us from what we’re doing right now. But then that, as we said earlier, there’s a flow on effect, a ripple effect from that, and it builds. There’s a leadership quote, that I learned, oh, gee, must have been 10-12 years ago, and I still come back to it quite a bit. And it’s a very simple phrase, how we get there matters. And we are getting somewhere. But how we get there really matters, the way we work, the way we interact, the way we come together as people as humans. And we show that care and kindness for each other is so important. I mean, at the end of the day, what sort of leader do you want to be remembered for? What’s your legacy? And I think, yes, this has been difficult. I don’t want to gloss over that. Yes, it’s been hard, people’s lives and livelihoods have been impacted. But at the same time, it gives us an opportunity for us to look in the mirror and say, Okay, how can I be a more graceful and kind leader? And be a leader others want to follow?

Becky Hammond  27:37

Yeah definitely.

Murray Guest  27:41

Yeah. So just to wrap this up this great conversation, oh, I get so energized talking to you about this stuff. So thank you. What do you think are some simple things? What do you think are some simple things people could do that could help them to really tap into this grace and kindness?

Becky Hammond  27:59

Yeah, I think we’ve shared some really good examples of things that you could do, simple things you could do to add, modify to what fits your team. Another one that I’ve loved that a healthcare leader recently expressed to me and suggested was breathe. Now, that sounds like what does this have to do with grace. But as I thought about it, she was talking about the pause that we were talking about, you know, in order to breathe well, you have to pause, you have to stop. You can’t I mean, you don’t breathe your best. Unless you’re, you know, an elite Olympic athlete, you’re not breathing your best when you’re running a million miles an hour, right? You’re breathing your best when you’ve stopped, you paused, you slowed. And I, I just I had this visualization about the breath that she was talking about. It’s like, the simple act of like taking a breath in like, *gasps* and then letting it out. Slowly, exhaling. The inhale is like the act of receiving grace to yourself. So bringing that into yourself, filling yourself with like, it’s okay, I’m not going to get it right. And then exhale, is letting that grace out to others. I just love what that physicality does. And also the word picture does of like I’m breathing grace in and, and letting it out to others.

Murray Guest  29:24

I love that so much. And I think, you know, there’s so much power in tapping into our breath and mindfulness and meditation, but just that simple connection with grace and doing that, at the start of every meeting at the start of conversations at the start of your day, and you can bring that anytime into your life. But I honestly love that connection with grace as well that bring it in and lending it out to everyone around you in your circle as well. So, yeah, simple, but effective. And as you said, there’s some things we’ve covered, build on that as well around some of those simple messages and tokens and language you’re using with your teams and with those people that you work with, and being more mindful of that and think about, okay, how can I say this with grace? How can I communicate with grace? How can I show that and tapping into that? And I know that as we continue this podcast conversation, we will, in the future conversations, tap back into this and link into this with some of the future topics we’re going to talk about. The other thing, Becky, I think we’ve had some great links to the Leaders Who Give a Damn program. I mean, in there we talk about self awareness, we talk about your well being. But of course, we talk about knowing your people. And we’ve got a great module about how important is knowing your people. And so I know in that program, we we explore these concepts, and they link beautifully to grace and kindness as well.

Becky Hammond  30:58

Yep, in each of those conversations, kind of like today, but even more so, we leave every leader with some real true action, some action planning guides, and some worksheets and things that, you know, you can listen to a conversation and say, okay, maybe I can take one nugget out. But the program itself is designed to be able to help say, okay, yes, you need to take a nugget out. And what’s that going to be for you? And how are you going to put it into play? And let us be the ones that can help you do that. So yeah, so if you’re liking these types of conversations, you will love Leaders Who Give a Damn.

Murray Guest  31:36

So thank you so much for talking about grace and kindness and leadership. And in our next conversation, we’re going to talk about how important communication has been in these past couple of months and some of the insights and stories that we’ve got to share with people from the leaders we’ve been talking to him working with. So I look forward to doing that with you, Becky. Thanks again so much.

Becky Hammond  31:57

Yes, thank you, Murray. Always a pleasure. And I look forward to the next very important conversation about communication.