Episode 79 – Michael Fearne | Launch of The LSP Method book!

In this episode, I welcome back LEGO® Serious Play® expert Michael Fearne, to discuss his new book, The LSP Method. 

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Michael, welcome to the Inspired Energy podcast. Once again. This is our second conversation. So great to have you back. How’s your week been?

Michael Fearne  00:11

It’s been fantastic. Thanks, Murray. It’s good to be a two time guest on your podcast. The week’s been great, really exciting, you know, lots of fun things happening, released a book about what I do with Lego Serious Play. So yeah, it’s been a whirlwind at the moment, still going.

Murray Guest  00:29

I’ve read the book. And I’m really looking forward to sharing some of the insights out of the book today and the book process. It is a great book. And we’ll make sure there’s a link to the LSP Method in the show notes. Everyone should be checking that out if you’re as passionate about Lego Serious Play as Michael is, and I am. And I was just saying I love I love the book cover. I mean, I love the the bright yellow, it’s got that Lego color and the brick just bouncing out of there. Can I just, before we get into anything else, because I love the cover. How did that come about?

Michael Fearne  01:03

The cover? Yeah, well, it’s interesting. So I guess it dives into a little bit of my perfectionism that I’m trying to sort of rein in a little bit. So the book itself I was, I was getting a company to help me through the process. So all the way from, you know, it’s two years ago, it’s like another world ago, I flew to Texas to do a two day workshop with a whole bunch of other people that kick started this book writing process. And they take you through that, the editing, and we ended up getting to the cover. And yeah, so they had a cover designer, they sent me a few sort of images. And I was just like, No, no, no, no, no. And I did the cardinal sin that no author should ever do, which is try and design their own cover. So perfectionism went into overdrive a little bit there. So I tried to rein that in. And yeah, I ended up with a cover that I’m really happy with. It’s just a simple brick that is interesting. Is it paint splatter, or is it melting? It’s just turning Lego into a different form. So I’m really happy with that. And obviously, what’s inside.

Murray Guest  02:02

Well, I love what you’ve said, there. It’s about turning Lego into a different form, which is what LSP is all about, isn’t it?

Michael Fearne  02:08

Yeah. And that was that was part of it with that that brick image on the front, it’s just reorienting people’s thinking about what Lego is from a child’s toy to, you know, a really useful tool in a meeting, in a class, in a workshop.

Murray Guest  02:21

And for those people that are thinking, hang on, what are they even talking about? What is LSP? What’s your high level definition that you impart to people?

Michael Fearne  02:32

Yeah, yeah, it’s probably good to let people know we’re talking about Lego stuff. Um, so what Lego Serious Play is, the easiest way to understand it is it’s just it’s a method to use in meetings and workshops and classes. So when you’re having a conversation, and what it does is it really, really engages people. So you put some Lego in front of people, you ask them a question, and then they build their answer to that question using Lego and these sort of metaphorical and storytelling techniques. And so what it does in the end is make people think differently. And the follow on from that is they communicate differently. And so you end up with with different conversations in, you know, the the typical meeting that you have, whether it’s online now, or whether it’s in person, it changes that dynamic, and you get some really interesting insights flowing from them.

Murray Guest  03:17

And I love the training I did with you at the start of the year, pre COVID. And I, I believe what I’ve experienced using LSP, in my workshops is a richness of conversation that wouldn’t have happened. So for years, I, you know, been using some of the traditional tools of flip charts and whiteboards, post it notes and things like that. But when we get people playing and building an answer to a question, the richness of the conversation I always find is much deeper and honestly, more valuable.

Michael Fearne  03:47

Yeah, I say it sort of brings more of the whole person to the conversation and to work like this often in business there’s, you know, I call them facades. That sounds harsh, but it is, they are these barriers that we put up about this is the you know, the way we should act in this situation. And I find what Lego Serious Play does, as a method, it breaks that down and in lots of cool ways, whether it’s clay, or whether it’s to do with getting in flow. There’s lots of different cool science underneath. But it’s just about bringing that facade down. And when you see the real human, then you can just be more authentically you. And what flows from that is just as, as a facilitator, it’s mesmerizing. And you know, the cool thing is you get results from it as well. But I just love sitting there and being mesmerized by the stories that I hear. Yeah, that and all that stuff. Interestingly I’ve been doing a bit of reading about this thing called the default mode network which is about that that mind that’s ticking on in the background, it’s all the things you said, Well, you know, how is someone viewing me? What is my manager thinking? What should I be doing? And what Lego Serious Play as a method does, it sort of quietens that down, and it just allows you to be you and be in the moment and allow that creativity that we all have, and just everything to flow out. And so yeah, I love that it has sort of well being and sort of good feelings attached to it, which we don’t often have at work as well. So I love I love all those aspects, from the results to the the feeling that people get when they’re just in it.

Murray Guest  04:30

And I think about Brene Brown’s work about vulnerability and how we through that vulnerability and losing your armor and opening up and building trust. And you’re right, all those judgments that we have about is this the thing I should say, is my manager going to think something, is the other team members going to assess me and all that stuff. Lego Serious Play enables that to drop away much easier, doesn’t it? I’m sure you could share lots of stories that you’ve seen the impact of when you’ve created a space where people are building an answer to a question, and those conversations start. But before you share one, I want to share one, which I haven’t told you about recently, where we’re having a conversation with the team, and we’re talking about, we want you to build what 2020 was like for you. We’re near the end of 2020. So quite a simple, but I’d like to think quite a big question could go a few different ways. And we had some answers from some people on the team where it was building an answer, where it was like, I got to spend more time with my children. And I had this flexibility. And you know, there was this positivity that came out of the changes in 2020. A team member then shared this build that had been created, where their minifigure is surrounded by walls of Lego, and the net over the top. And I felt like I’ve been in a cage and stuck in my home and haven’t been able to connect with other team members. And then the tears started flooding. And it’s this space of openness, vulnerability and truth that came out. Where if I just asked a question, you know, let’s let’s reflect on 2020, we wouldn’t have got there. And I had the hair standing up on my arms. And this moment of, wow, this just shows how powerful this process is to then open up so honestly, so rapidly and authentically for the team members to get Okay, let’s talk about this. And it was it was so great.

Michael Fearne  07:11

I love that. So, so good to hear like, that’s what I love. It’s like, that’s part of the reason why I do what I do is to firstly be in the room to see those and to sort of set the stage for that to happen. But to hear what you just said like other people are doing that as well. Like I get the hairs standing up on my arm and things like that. Just hearing that story, because I remember that sort of thing happening in my workshops, too. And, yeah, I think the speed with which it happens, which you mentioned is just amazing. It just, whether it’s the Lego, the way you set it all up. It’s just, you just never get to those conversations. And yeah, examples I’ve had, I’ve had, like, probably in seven years, I’ve had easily over 10 people crying in workshops in a good way, like in a sort of cathartic, you know, I’m heard, I’m listened to, and I move through it. And that’s just hugely powerful on a, like an individual level. Yeah, I loved hearing that.

Murray Guest  08:03

Yeah. And in in the book, and we’ll talk about your book in a minute, you do talk about the applications of LSP are so big and broad. And it’s not just something that we do in corporate, it can be used in so many different areas. Which, again, is because we’re creating this space for these powerful conversations and deep conversations.

Michael Fearne  08:25

Yeah, and it’s interesting where Lego Serious Play started, like it started as this not just the business world, but like a strategy tools, I think of like the C suite, and you know, late 90s, everyone with their, you know, the old white guy with a tie. And you know, and it’s fascinating to see how it’s cascading down now. And like, while I wrote the book to be aimed at a more business and corporate audience, like I’m saying people in academia and universities, like high school teachers and primary school teachers, like I had them in mind with this book, and, you know, therapy and community engagement. And just, there’s so many spaces outside of the business world that it’s, it’s slowly cascading down to.

Murray Guest  09:03

Yeah. Which again, you think about some of the elements that we’ve talked about in our previous conversation around, you know, that kinesthetic learning and play and having fun and, you know, the learnings being locked in through all those, you know, applies to all those areas.

Michael Fearne  09:19

Yeah different people, different topics. Yeah, the base of the method is so flexible. I’m fascinated to see where it goes over the next 10 years.

Murray Guest  09:29

So am I and I’ll be keep talking to you and finding your progress. Because your book is I’m sure going to project you even bigger in the world of Lego Serious Play, which is fantastic. So my wife wrote a book a few years ago, and she said, it’s like having a baby. This build up and then the birthing and ohh it’s done. How do you relate to that analogy?

Michael Fearne  09:58

Well, I relate to it on two fronts. It is definitely I’m feeling I have felt that but it’s also my, my wife is pregnant and were like, she’s 34 weeks, we’re six weeks away. So it’s like there’s lots of birds going, I’ll be able to compare it exactly. To the actual process. But yeah, it’s um, it’s been a long time coming like in terms of…

Murray Guest  10:20

The gestation period has been a couple of years.

Michael Fearne  10:23

It has. Well, yeah, it sort of goes back to when I started with Lego Serious Play and even just facilitation. But really seven years ago, when I sort of came across the method and, and again, it was in a book, there was the inventor, Johan Roos, wrote a book from 2006 just his early, sort of inklings of the method. And that’s really sparked off my interest. And then sort of seven years later, I’ve written a book, based on his methods, you know, with all the twists and turns from the last seven years in my experience, so yeah, it’s been a long time. The actual writing process I started in probably April 2019. It was when I went over to Texas to do that. And what was fascinating when I first started writing, it was, you know, we’re running a lot of computers now, like run a lot of online calls and all sorts of stuff. And I started trying to type it out just in Word, and there was so many distractions. So what I did was I just got a pen, and I got these cool little notepads. And I just wrote it out by hand. And so I wrote about 40,000 words, just with pen and paper. And I remember sitting on the bus, like I decided to catch buses back then, pre pandemic, to the coworking space where I was working. And I remember just sitting there and it would just flow out, it was such a feeling of flow, because, you know, I, I’d been running sessions, I’d been training people in it, and it was just this. It’s almost like the muse, you’re just getting it out. And yeah, the hand was a bit sore by the end of it, and I had to then type it all into a computer, but it sort of felt apt for you know, what was very hands on method to write it.

Murray Guest  11:55

Was there anything that that you found in that writing process that really helped that getting in the zone, and the flow and it coming out? 

Michael Fearne  12:04

I think a couple of things. It’s interesting, the process, they call it the vomit draft. Yeah. So it’s literally getting everything out. Like don’t censor yourself. And it’s so that you, and it’s good to do with the creative process as well, you just get it out, and then you can edit, then you can mold it into something after that. But you start censoring yourself and editing and checking and thinking too much about it, then you know, you never get there. And so to get into that, that permission to just write down crap, just vomit, just put it all out is is so freeing. I think that was the thing that really helped helped to just get it out.

Murray Guest  12:43

Yeah, let go, and that perfectionism you mentioned at the start with your book cover, I can imagine back then when you’re writing, thinking about Oh, how do I say this? Or how am I going to frame this up? But just going put that to the side. And my friend Paul, who’s an artist coach, he talks about putting the critic in the corner, and just just doing it.

Michael Fearne  13:02

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think with the, there’s plenty of time for the critic later, like there’s editing, there’s all sorts of stuff that you can do that to bring back in that perfectionism. You know, or that that attention to detail, but there’s there’s times to, to really just let it go and be creative. And then times to pull it back. Yeah, it’s um, I think I think, you know, being being creative or getting things done is about flipping between these modes, and really finding when, you know, not getting caught in the perfectionist mode, or, you know, if later on when I’m editing and proofreading if you’re just in the flow, then you miss a lot of stuff. And so it’s it’s being able to switch and getting the help if you realize that you can’t, you know, hiring someone to help you do that sort of stuff.

Murray Guest  13:46

I’ve heard when people are writing a book, they think about who they’re writing the book for. Did you think about writing this book for yourself?

Michael Fearne  13:56

No I didn’t. I didn’t, it wasn’t for myself, because it’s a really, really good question. Because the thing that that catches a lot of people to start with a lot of things is like, Who’s it for? And what level of detail do I need to go through? And there’s always fears that come up as well. Like, for me, it was how will I be viewed by some of the other sort of respected people in in my world. So as people who had written books, people who are doing training in Lego Serious Play, some of the fathers of the method, like how would they view me like I had all these things going in my mind. And they were sort of blocks. And a big part of doing a book on this process is getting that out, like getting those fears aside and realizing who I’m writing this for. So who I was writing it for, I had a very particular person who was actually someone who came along to training a few years ago. And I said, you’re the person I’m writing it for, because you’re emblematic of like everyone that I want to read it. And I left out you know, some stuff, not because I wanted to hold it back, but because it wasn’t useful for that person. Um, so there’s a couple of things in Lego Serious Play that are very narrow, like the really strategic use of it. Like in strategies like a two day workshop, and I’m thinking I could put that in. And I’m sure the, you know, I would, I would show myself to be smart to the other sort of, you know, senior people in the Lego Serious Play world. But I’m like, Who cares? That’s not who I’m writing it for writing for that person, and what do they need? And they don’t need that. So I’ll cut it out. And so I mean, it ended up still like a 300 page book, it could have been like, 1000 pages, like it’s that complex. But you just got to keep paring it back. My mantra was make it easy, make it accessible. Think of that person and keep writing for them.

Murray Guest  15:33

And has that person seen the book?

Michael Fearne  15:35

I don’t know actually, I haven’t told her that she was the avatar. But I thought I had it in my mind. So it’s sort of the, you know, the corporate, she’s, you know, she’s in the corporate world. But she’s an innovator as pushing the boundaries a little bit slightly unsure, but, you know, willing to try something new. And so yeah, all these characteristics, and we go, I went through a process of writing this person’s, you know, psychographics, demographics, all of that down. But no, she doesn’t know. I should send her an email.

Murray Guest  16:04

Yeah, fantastic. And I think there’s something about that acknowledgement, isn’t there. And I’ve done that over the past couple of years, reaching out to some past managers and acknowledging them for the impact they had. And I’m just wondering what that might look like for you of saying, hang on, here’s a copy of the book. And thank you.

Michael Fearne  16:22

Yeah, totally. And even even in the book as well, like acknowledgments, like thinking about who to acknowledge, like, I’m so aware that I, you know, it’s the whole standing on the shoulders of giants, like we literally, and let’s not just say with Lego Serious Play where someone invented it, someone helped develop it, I learned it, and then I sort of added to it. But I’m really appreciative of just everything in this world, like, someone invented clothes a while back. Like I’m living off that invention, and everything that I look around in my room, and like someone that sort of human history has been this, this progression of people innovating, and we’re the beneficiaries of it, like everything. And, you know, I’m so thankful for that, even in the small world of Lego Serious Play.

Murray Guest  17:06

Earlier this year, I was going to see a client, and I was opening my backpack to get something out. And I went, who invented zippers, zippers are awesome. They’re everywhere. And I just had this moment of appreciation for zippers and how good they are.

Michael Fearne  17:21

Yeah exactly. These almost everything. Oh, my god, there’s so many things that I’m just thankful for. You know, you want to acknowledge people, you know, that are important and have helped you and but really, it’s, it’s almost like the entirety of human history has helped to where we are. And so I sort of have that gratitude within me. And yeah, it is nice to verbalize it to, you know, some key people, but also know that it’s..

Murray Guest  17:54

So, Michael, you mentioned fear. And I think about and I had actually Kristin Ulmer, who was known as the world’s most fearless person, or female, she was an extreme skier recently on the podcast, fantastic conversation. But I think about when you mentioned fear about that fear people have of putting themselves out there and that, you know, we fear public speaking more than death. And then you think writing a book is like public speaking, putting myself out there. How did you manage that process, work through that?

Michael Fearne  18:33

Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s one of the biggest things we all face, like it’s the little self talk about judgment of others. And you mentioned Brene Brown before, like that, quote, from the start, about the sort of man in the stadium like that was the one sort of there fighting and the blood and the sweat and, like, I’d rather just be that person and just go down in flames, if it’s if that’s the way like, that’s my motto is, it’s just, you’re there. It’s not the critic, it’s not the person judging. It’s the one that’s actually on the playing field. It’s striving and failing and coming up short, and, you know, not being timid and things like that. So that story, I know it’s not hers, but that had a big impact on me. And I think I’m fortunate in the respects that I’m, I’m very much an introvert. So I like my own sort of company. And that’s where I get my energy from, even though I go out and I do quite an extroverted job as a facilitator. But I think I’ve found this nice balance between I care what people think, but I also don’t care. It’s important, but it’s also you know, if there’s critics, then that’s, that’s their thing. I guess it’s having that strong sort of self worth, self identity, self esteem, and, you know, the others, if they don’t like my stuff, I’m happy to find people that do and value it and use it and all that. So yeah, it’s um, it’s been a long process, but it’s understanding your own identity in mind and your place in it all.

Murray Guest  20:05

Yeah, I can connect with what you’re saying. And I feel like I’ve become a better facilitator over the years with letting go of those judgments or fears. And just showing up as my authentic self, which then we connect with people when they’re their true self. So I feel like that’s helped me. I still, obviously, do think about it at times and worry about it. Because, you know, we go through ups and downs. But you know, when I come back to that, and going, Okay, this is me, and how can I show up as the best version of me, that does help me I know. I’m wondering, back to your book process, the the process you went through and the people that you partner with to help get your book out. Is there any specific techniques or tips that they gave you to help process this as well? And process the fears?

Michael Fearne  20:51

Yeah, totally, they did, that they have a whole fear sort of activity that they do. And what’s great, I’ll let you know that the company is called Scribe Media, Scribe Writing. And what’s really interesting is, they just put out all their stuff for free, like, literally, there’s a book which has their entire process in it, you can go to their website, and they have a school where you can just do everything. And they then you know, you then which is what I did you go through their paid program, if you want to get extra help, and editing and proofreading, and you know, weekly accountability calls and all that sort of stuff, but they just put all this stuff out there. And so yeah, there’s a whole bunch of tips that feel free to check them out. But, you know, they go through that fear identifying process, and to help you work through that. And also about what you know, what you want to get out of it. Like, you know, in this day and age, you don’t make money from books, like if you want to make money, don’t write a book. That’s the big thing. So for me, they they get you to identify, well, why are you writing the book? And for me, you know, part of it’s legacy, like I want to, you know, the best thing was, I got some books delivered to my house just before the book launch. I opened it up, I got one and I and the first one I gave was to my four year old daughter, I said, this is this is for you. Yeah, she’s in there, for my partner and my daughter. And so to me, that legacy of just putting something in the world and knowing that it will continue, much like kids, having kids, you know, legacy, but there’s also, you know, getting that information in in front of people so that they can use so that your impact can be wider. So I think it’s identifying what impact you want to make in the world with whatever project you’re doing, and really getting clear on that. And, you know, for a lot of it, if you focus on money or that sort of success, you know, that’s a harder road. And it’s not as a satisfying road, if that’s your measure of success, that flows later on. But yeah, so that was a really interesting process to go through where to start as well.

Murray Guest  22:46

Yeah. And I really appreciate you sharing that you are working with Scribe and Scribe Media. And we’ll make sure there’s some links so that people might want to check that out as well. So when you look at your book, is there’s some sections that you’re more proud of? Or is this something that you just read or you look at and you go, Wow, I’m so glad that’s in there.

Michael Fearne  23:08

Oh, yeah. interesting. Well, the first line is pretty hilarious. I have to say, so I probably should share that with the audience. So yeah, when I first met my brother in law’s, and there was five of them. And they just had no like, they’re like, what is this lego thing he does this can’t like this can’t be a real job. And they actually thought I was a drug dealer. They thought I was carrying around giant bags of Lego, and, you know, internationally, and thought I was some kingpin of, you know, some international crime syndicate, because it just was so ridiculous what I did. So I’m quite proud of the start of the book. But I think in general, it’s practical and just it’s all very how-to, very tactical, there’s just like every little little twist, little turn that I’ve done over the last seven years, and not even just from me, but from what I’ve learned as well from other people. I love that that’s in there. So it’s very tactical, in terms of, you know, do this, do this. But if you want, you know, to vary it I’m really proud of the level that I’m proud of the people that helped as well, like, there’s a chapter on the people, some other facilitators, and they sort of pop in throughout the book to add their little tips, which I think is good.

Murray Guest  24:20

Yeah I really liked that section, because you’ve got different facilitators from around the world about how they use Lego Serious Play, what’s their insight, which brings in some different, you know, perspectives and knowledge and I think some ideas for other people as well.

Michael Fearne  24:35

Yeah, I was really excited to get that in there and have them sort of come back throughout the book with little tips here and there. I’m actually thinking the next book was just going to be me working with a whole bunch of facilitators like a chapter on, you know, with Murray about how you use it and a chapter with other people about how they use it, because that’s what I’m learning is, you know, this base level information is great, but it is about how people are using, it’s about community. It’s about sharing that and, you know, I’ve started to realize that, particularly with what’s happening with the pandemic, how important community is and sharing and I’m being open. And so yeah, I’m proud of that. And you know, that’s probably gonna be featured in whatever I do in the future.

Murray Guest  25:10

I heard that, at the time of recording here, that book two is on its way.

Michael Fearne  25:15

Oh, yeah, I’ve actually got the topics lined up for the next three books. I don’t know when I’ll get to it. But yeah, there’s there’s plenty now that the base information for Lego Serious Play is just out there in this book, like, I feel like it was, it was held back a lot like it was the last 10 years has been a model of scarcity, where, you know, the, the information has been sort of protected, and you needed to sort of find a way to get it. And the thing I love about the book is it just says, look, here’s all the information, at least according to me, and let’s, let’s build on top of that, and, you know, as soon as you write a book, it’s out of date, like, you know, I’m hoping in the next 10 years that it’ll get updated. And you know, with all the new stuff that people have done.

Murray Guest  25:54

So is there a bit of a creativity flow that’s now happened, where this as you were doing this book and getting it out, it’s like, Ah, this idea of the next one, this idea for the next one. Was that sort of happening?

Michael Fearne  26:04

Totally, so the next book, there’s one chapter in the book, which talks about sort of example sessions, and then another chapter in the book, which talks about other people and what they’re doing and for the next book just wants to be an expansion of that. It wants to be okay, let’s take this topic and really explode into a chapter and dive into how people are using it like this, and another chapter on this sort of topic. And so almost like the recipe, not the recipes, but the different different areas, which, you know, I didn’t devote as much time as I wanted to in the first book, because, you know, you got to draw a line somewhere. And now, yeah, there’s that. And then I’m fascinated by the theoretical and the scientific underpinnings of Lego Serious Play, I think that’s going to be the third book, just diving deep into that. And I’ve just started exploring Lego Serious Play in virtual reality. So I think that’s going to be the fourth book to see, you know, what that might look like.

Murray Guest  26:53

We had a really good online session, I remember early this year about bringing those elements of play to the online learning. Obviously, there’s been a big pivot this year with zoom and online facilitation. And I just loved that that session we had about, okay, how can you bring some of that to the online sessions, and I’ve done some of that with and had some interaction. And I know some other people doing some interesting things was sending Lego out to people. But like you were explaining to me at the time, you can bring the, let’s say, the foundation of the approach of what we’re talking about to other things in your house and that facilitation as well.

Michael Fearne  27:29

Yeah, yeah. I mean, doesn’t have to be Lego, it works really well. But I think it’s a it’s like a mindset, and it is some of those underlying principles. And, you know, we’re doing a lot in the online world. So I’m hopeful in 2021, they’ll, you know, more people around the world, we’re very fortunate in Australia that will hopefully get back to some face to face stuff, maybe sooner than others, like they are doing in New Zealdn at the end of the month. And the rest of the world will hopefully follow with its vaccines and you know, all sorts of stuff, but the online world and like I said, I’m interested in virtual reality and other stuff like that, that’s still going to have a place. But I’m looking forward to getting back in the room. And yeah, running a few more sessions, I have to say.

Murray Guest  28:04

Yeah, well, I know what I’m doing with some clients at the moment of blended approach. So we’re doing some face to face and some online, and how we can create a program where it’s embracing this different way of working, and then the face to face, I think is going to have more value, because it’s like, we’re getting together face to face now.

Michael Fearne  28:24

Yeah.

Murray Guest  28:25

Yeah. The other thing, I’m wondering, do you have any hopes for your book? Like what’s a hope for your book?

Michael Fearne  28:36

My hope for the book is that it’s, it sort of becomes the not the de facto standard, but the first book that people go to, like they want to learn Lego Serious Play. And if people are still interested in reading books, and that’s the way they like to learn, then grab this one, because it’s got everything you need. And I think that’s the hope is that, that the information within it will just spread. Like I love hearing that story you said before, you know that you came along to my training, you got some information, you applied it, you had a fantastic experience, and you helped someone and, you know, there was another one from a lady who’s up in Queensland who’s doing Lego Serious Play with, you know, people in what’s called the Global South. So things like East Timor, and community programs there. And I just love hearing that. So I’m just fascinated. There’s a guy in Uganda that I was just chatting with the other day, and he’s starting to apply in his startup co working space. And I just love those stories. Like that’s what I love. That’s what I get a real kick out of. And so that’s my hope for the book is that people just around the world will start doing more Lego Serious Play and, and we can move past it being this sort of exclusive type activity to really start to build on top of it and really progress it and innovate with it.

Murray Guest  29:49

I look forward to seeing some photos of people reading the book on public transport or in the middle of nowhere and you’re like, Ah, there’s my book and someone’s reading it.

Michael Fearne  29:59

Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, now that it’s out, and I, my big aim is just to get it into people’s hands and like we’re chatting a little while back, it’s not like you make huge money from a book, you really don’t, it’s just the impact you want in the world. And books are just one way to do it. And so sort of, you know, it’s a big effort to, and I spent a bit of money to get all my information to a book, but just the payoff is, just the excitement of seeing where people take it.

Murray Guest  30:27

I’m just thinking about what else you think might happen, like the future of Lego Serious Play? Do you have any thoughts about where that may go? You talked about your excitement of understanding the different applications and how people are using it. Do you have any thoughts about where this may look in the future? What it might look like as well?

Michael Fearne  30:47

Yeah, yes, I’ve had this vision probably for maybe three or four years now, once I really started thinking about and once I got comfortable with the method, had this vision in my mind that in sort of every office, in every school, just in every space, there’s literally like a bag of Lego over there. And people know how to do Lego Serious Play. And when they’re having a conversation, they’ll sit down, they go, you know what, Murray, I think we need to get the Lego and just change this conversation, let’s get it, we know how to do it, let’s just build it, it’s almost like a self service, you know, let’s just almost like a post it note a whiteboard, the Legos there, we know how to do Lego Serious Play, let’s use it to have a better conversation. There will always be places for the experts in terms of, you know, sort of bringing an external facilitator in because there’s, there’s certain things that we do in terms of, you know, allowing the group, you know, to the idea of an external facilitator is that you are helping that process. And so they’ll always be, you know, sort of space for us to come in, but I just see it at a lower level, just everyone using it themselves. And I mean in the end, I’d love to just be out of a job, honestly, like it was like everyone does Lego Serious Play. And you know, they they have that information. And that’s decades off. But that’s sort of the dream is, is just sort of ubiquitous use of it in the right moment. Like it’s not for every conversation, but for the right moment, the right conversation, we know how to do it, let’s grab the Lego. And let’s get some value out of it.

Murray Guest  32:13

Yeah, yeah, I love that vision of it just being there. And as you said, people being self driven, because they know, when they bring that to the table, how it’s going to enhance the conversation and take it to another place. Yeah. And and that vision could be playing out anywhere. Because it’s applicable to us as humans having those conversations.

Michael Fearne  32:37

Families, like people running it with families, and like, I’d love to see it in more in therapy as well, where people are actually externalizing, you know, what’s happening internally within them, which is essentially what the method is, is just getting what’s in your mind out to chat about it. And so whether it’s, whether it’s corporate, whether it’s, you know, sort of therapeutic type environments, whether it’s educational, which I think is still huge uses there as well. Lots of green space, or blue sky or whatever metaphor you want to use.

Murray Guest  33:06

Yellow space.

Michael Fearne  33:09

Shaped like a brick…

Murray Guest  33:11

Yeah. So just to wrap up today’s conversation. There’s been some weird baby names this year. Michael, I don’t know if you’ve seen there was actually, I did see a story about a Covid or a Corona in some areas.

Michael Fearne  33:28

Okay, wow that’s a brave choice.

Murray Guest  33:31

It is. Have you spoken to your wife about any potential Lego related baby names?

Michael Fearne  33:39

Um, what’s interesting on baby names, so our approach to naming children that seem to work well, for the first one, is to do a bit of research, have a bit of a shortlist and then and wait to see who they are. So we’ve got six weeks from when they’re born to when we have to actually give them an official name. We took all that six weeks with our first child. So that’s the sort of process we go through. But it probably won’t be anything to do with Lego or..

Murray Guest  34:03

I didn’t think so.

Michael Fearne  34:04

No, what’s interesting with like, I think I’ve mentioned before, like, I’m not the hugest fan of Lego like, I don’t dislike it, but I’m not like, you know, when when this conversation ends, I’m not going to go and build with Lego and things like that. It’s, it’s, I love what it does. And I think it’s fine if you love Lego, and you want to bring that into work, it’s fine if you hate Lego, and you just want to use it for, you know, this method for the conversation. So it’s, um, it’s funny in our household we have, we’re sending our kids to a Steiner school. So there’s lots of wood, and then suddenly, there’s all these bright plastic in the room, which is pretty hilarious.

Murray Guest  34:35

Yeah, gotcha. And I was not expecting a Lego child name. I was just putting that out there. But actually interesting I think your process is very similar to ours, with my wife where, here’s a few names, but who is this person that’s been brought into this world and, you know, because then that’s a different perspective that maybe we didn’t even think of because this person is you know, that person.

Michael Fearne  35:04

Yeah, you want to meet them.

Murray Guest  35:05

Yeah.

Michael Fearne  35:06

I have to say on the Lego stuff. I do say ‘awesome’ a lot more now since I started using Lego for work, almost every email there’s an awesome in there and I have found it seeping into my vocabulary a lot more. So it’s obviously getting in at the DNA level.

Murray Guest  35:20

Yep, yep. Well, it’s funny I was not a Lego person. I don’t think we even had Lego growing up. It’s the sort of thing that that wasn’t in our house. I don’t think we had the money for it at the time when I was a child, but we do have it now. But a bit like you, I love what it creates and space. And I do a bit of building on the side. But I’m not I’m not a I’m not going to be on brick master or anything like that. That is not not my path in life, that’s for sure. Yeah, mate, thank you so much for your time, I would definitely make sure there’s links to your program, to the book, to Scribe learning, it was just so good to read through the book, to read the information you’re sharing, the openness and it’s such a practical book, there’s so much value in there for anyone that’s intrigued about Lego Serious Play, if they’re an existing facilitator, or they have done the training and they want to just help it help them with some reference to it as well. So congratulations on a fantastic book.

Michael Fearne  36:25

Thank you Murray, much appreciated. Just for everyone out there, like it took a couple of years to do it. But I plugged away, small steps and whatever process whether it’s the book, whether it’s you know, course or whatever you’re doing, it’s just, you just keep at it. Like you know, any psychological barriers that come along, you knock them down and you keep going and you know what, it works out in the end you just keep going.

Murray Guest  36:45

I’ve got a couple of half written books and you’ve inspired me to take some action get into those. So thank you so much, Michael, and all the best for the next few weeks with a new being in the in the house. And I hope that goes fan- awesome – I hope it goes awesome.

Michael Fearne  37:04

It will, I’m excited.

Murray Guest  37:05

Yeah. Thanks again, Michael.

Michael Fearne  37:06

Thanks.

Episode 73 – Paul Dunlop | Lean, Leadership and LEGO!

In this episode I chat with Paul Dunlop, who works with organizations to implement change and improvement through lean thinking and methodologies.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Paul, welcome to the podcast, looking forward to connecting. We were just chatting before the recording and I love your energy. I love what you bring. How’s life? 

Paul Dunlop  00:13

Life is good, Murray, it’s great to be here. And thank you for having me along. Pretty excited to talk about a bit of Lego. But um, yeah, life is good, life is different with current circumstances. But yes, it’s great. I think I’ve been able to, you know, use that horrible word pivot. But do things a little bit differently and think a bit differently with some of the, I guess the time I’ve had? 

Murray Guest  00:41

Yeah, there’s some new words that have come out this year isn’t there, there’s pivot and pandemic, while they’re not new, they’re just getting used so much at the moment. Hopefully, we’re bringing some different words in 2021. 

Paul Dunlop  00:54

Absolutely, that don’t start with P. 

Murray Guest  00:58

Well, you’ve got a whole bunch of P-words that you, you know, those pillars that you use, or the companies you work with, they’re people, process, play and profit. And I want to talk a bit about that, and the work you do with different organizations. But one thing that really attracted me to what you do was just this phrase of chaos to calm. Tell me where that came from.

Paul Dunlop  01:25

Um, I guess that, well, it funnily enough, it came from my clients’ mouths, not mine. So what I experienced was client by client, organization by organization, that these are the words that they would use, this would be what the organization would feel like when you when you walked in. So being I guess, a lean person, what I tend to experience is chaos in the process, that chaos, you know, people working very, very hard to achieve the day to day outcomes. And like I say, you can you can literally see it play out you can feel it, there’s a lot of emotion, you know, the environments are very reactive, there’s a lot of firefighting going on, a lot of short term thinking. So that’s that chaos. And I’ll literally get phone calls these days. And people say I’m in bloody chaos I need help Paul, and that’s what it is. Where is, you know, the other end of the spectrum, the calm, is what a, you know, again, to me what a real lean organization feels like whether we’re using, you know, the lean word or not. It doesn’t feel like much is happening. And people have time and space to actually think above the day to day process and be more strategic or think about improving their process or their culture or their problems, whatever it might be. So yeah, that was an easy tagline to get.

Murray Guest  03:00

Yeah, and I love that, as you said, it’s come from those interactions and conversations with your clients. And I can imagine, you know, the the shift that lean helps bring from chaos to calm. What’s your 25 words or less definition of lean for those people that may not know much about it? 

Paul Dunlop  03:22

It’s a very good question. 

Murray Guest  03:25

I want a lean answer about lean.

Paul Dunlop  03:27

Yeah. I might struggle with that. Yeah, look, lean. I think lean means many things to many people, depending on your experience. I think from the outside looking in, many people see lean as a, perhaps a bit of a quick fix. It’s more to do with cost cutting and ruthless efficiency and all of those things. So there’s a lot of misconceptions around it, which often when I’m engaging with, with clients, and with people, it’s dispelling those myths, and it’s almost talking about more what lean isn’t than what it actually is. So for me, lean is a, it is a way of thinking. Full stop. So there’s lots of tools and there’s lots of buzzwords, and all of those sorts of things that surround lean. But essentially lane is about creating engagement in your organization. It’s about creating a culture of learning and a culture of problem solving. And it’s about creating, you know, a leadership culture where leaders are servants and leaders are supporting their teams to achieve the outcomes. So you know, there is a set of tried and tested tools that sit around lean, but though, those tools are really just there to enable the habits which enable the behavior which enables the cultural change over time.

Murray Guest  05:06

Yeah, and I think when you talk about resetting some of those misconceptions about Lean, what I’ve heard in the past is that people have felt like lean was so focused on the processes and the systems and not the people. And that’s developed some of those negative or hindering perceptions around lean. And my understanding, and I know from the work that you do, there is very much a people-focus on those improvements. And as you said, changing the culture.

Paul Dunlop  05:32

Yeah, absolutely. All too often I think it can become like any change process, very top down, and that can get lost in translation. To me, lean is about that ownership and empowerment, and it disengaged, actually disengages people rather than engages. So you see versions where it’s, it is top down, sometimes it’s bottom up, it’s almost kind of revolution from the front lines. But that can only get so far without, you know, the support from, you know, middle and senior leadership. So it’s finding that balance and getting that harmony, which is often there’s a bit of tension in getting that right. But when it clicks it’s extremely powerful. 

Murray Guest  06:22

Oh, yeah. And it’s funny, as we’re talking, you’re taking me back, geez, nearly 30 years, must be 25-26 years when I first started in fmcg, in the food industry, and, you know, just in time and GMP and 5S, a lot of those tools were just the way of working in fmcg. And for me as like, as a first real job back then in my early 20s, I thought all companies worked like this. I couldn’t be more wrong.

Paul Dunlop  06:57

No, it’s interesting. Yeah certainly locally as well, like I see people coming out of the automotive industry who have been at Toyota or Ford or wherever, and they really, really struggle. Because that’s all they know. They’ve been in that environment for such a long time. And it’s very, very challenging for those people to shift into, let’s say the normal, you know, particularly in manufacturing, mindset, which is, you know, somewhat of that that chaos mentality. So, yeah, you see all parts of the spectrum.

Murray Guest  07:37

Can I ask, you mention change. Where do you think change falls down and doesn’t lock in sustainably in organizations? And lean obviously is one of those change initiatives that often, unfortunately, that happens with.

Paul Dunlop  07:55

I probably come back to two key points – it’s common sense, and it’s discipline. And, look, I have a, I’m a simple guy, I have a very simple approach to these things. But for me, I see change processes sometimes, again, we’ve spoken about the top down. So it’s about making that change, I guess, accessible and easy to understand, there has to be a clear sense of why, you know, why are we doing this? What are the objectives? So we need clearly expressed and clearly articulated objectives around that. I think every organization has the best intentions, they, one way or another, they acknowledge where they are, whether they do something about it or not is a different thing. But the intention to be better and do better is always there. But it is just the ability to execute on that consistently. So again, a lot of lean programs are talking about Kaizen events and those sorts of things. And they’re, they’re sort of once off and I heard a lean guy, Mike Robbo, said it’s four days and a pizza party. And these, I guess, change and transformation and building habits, that can’t happen by a once off. It’s not, you know, if you’re losing weight or getting fit, you know, it’s not just crash diets and things like that. It has to be building a structure and the habits and daily routines to actually make that change. And the change is always incremental. We, we have quick wins, sure, there’s low hanging fruit all the time, but that that change has to be, you know, small steps, everybody making small steps over time. And a lot of organizations I think, really struggle with that concept. Because, you know, we’re human beings, we’re impatient. We want those quick things happening. We want it to be easy. Change is hard, change is really hard. It’s difficult, it’s awkward. It’s very uncomfortable at times, it’s confronting, particularly for leaders to have to look in the mirror. And that’s I think a lot of where my more difficult conversations come in the transformation process is actually showing leaders that well, perhaps presenting them with some self awareness. There was a few sort of Gordon Ramsay moments. And taking them on that journey of, well, actually, it can be different, and it should be different. And that different for you led to a much better place for you personally, and a much better place for your team. So, a bit of a long winded answer to that question. But I think for me the change process is just daily execution. And, and sticking to those structures such as, you know, your daily meetings and visual boards and, you know, Daily Standard Work and Five S, all of those sorts of things, even if it’s, you know, at the start small commitments that you actually execute on those commitments.

Murray Guest  11:17

It is interesting, isn’t it, that as humans we approach change outside of work with a level of perseverance and commitment. Whether that as you said, fitness or health goal or saving money or whatever it might be, financial, yet in business we seem to think tick the box and get it done overnight. But that same perseverance and discipline is needed for that change and to a) see the benefits and b) to lock in as a habit. What’s the shift you reckon for leaders to start to apply that internally in the business, like if you’ve got someone that’s like, oh no we just need to do it, are you Gordon Ramsay yelling at them? How are we getting them to change that mindset?

Paul Dunlop  12:03

*laughs* Maybe. Look again, I think it’s so it’s developing that emotional, like particularly for leaders, I think it’s developing that emotional connection. I work with a lot of middle managers and senior leaders who are, you know, career in manufacturing, let’s say career production managers or whatnot, they’ve based their success on a particular approach and got to that point. So those habits and behaviors in their mind has led to success, but we start to look at what’s going on in the in the current state, and they’re busy, they’re working very long hours, they’re fatigued, they’re, you know, literally, you know, can’t concentrate, they can’t be present. And that’s just in the workplace. And then you start to discuss what’s going on outside of work and their family life’s suffering, they’re not spending enough time with their kids, they’re not eating well, they’re unhealthy. So on and so forth. So it’s just about, I think, for me, I’ll spend a time painting that picture. And starting to, you know, one of the first exercises I’ll do with a leader is to do leader standard work. So okay, what are your must do, should do, like to do, nice to do type activities? And let’s really understand, are you playing in your lane? What is your clear role and responsibility? What should you be doing versus what are you actually doing?

Murray Guest  13:44

And can I just say, a) I was looking at online recently about your Leader Standard Work tool, and I just love that approach. And b) what’s popping in my head is just even asking those questions, I’m sure just unravels this awareness of well I actually don’t even know what I’m meant to be doing.

Paul Dunlop  14:01

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So it’s just that getting clarity in the environment and clarity at all levels of the environment. But when we look at what leaders are doing, again, I have this conversation a lot is that we look at, we have a problem with leadership in that we promote people who are technically good at their jobs. And just because you’re good at your job, we assume that you’re good at managing people who are good at the job. And we forget that there’s a big transition between the technical aptitude and running a team of people and having those soft skills. So people tend to, and I think we are getting better. But there’s still a long way to go in terms of equipping those aspiring leaders from the frontlines right through with those tools and those structures to support them to be successful leaders. So what tends to happen is that those middle managers and senior leaders, they gravitate back towards the happy place, the comfort zone of their technical skill, and they crowd the lower levels of the organization. That’s where our micro managers, and that’s where a lot of the time gets eaten up. Because it’s in that day to day hustle and bustle. And there’s almost an addiction there too. The hero mentality.

Murray Guest  15:26

Yeah. And I, you know, you shared online recently about decluttering your time, and I’m just thinking about that video and your insights to that around bringing again, as you said, the self awareness of what’s taking up my time, what’s filling my day? And is it the best use of my time as a leader? And asking, who is the best person to do this other than me? Or the system, or whatever else it is? Can I ask, there was an article that HBR had, I think it was last year, I could be wrong, might’ve been the year before. And I’ve shared it with a few clients. And some of them they’ve, they’ve actually been a little bit taken aback. And I’ll tell you, the title of the article was, If I’m so successful, why am I working 70 hours a week. And in the article it does talk about some of those habits and behaviors, but also even the ego that comes in about being the hero and the rescuer, and filling up your day doing all that stuff. That’s not the best use of the leader’s time.

Paul Dunlop  16:32

Yeah. Yeah. And again, that’s the conversations I start to have, is just calling bullshit on that. In your mind, you think you’re doing this but reality’s very different. You know, you’re bemoaning the fact that your people don’t want to take responsibility or ownership or whatever, or they can’t, because you’re not letting go.

Murray Guest  16:56

So and what I’m thinking here is that awareness of the chaos that I’m in, how much of that I’m creating myself as a leader, as opposed to it’s everyone else’s bloody fault. So if I want to go from chaos to calm, I gotta have my level of ownership and change.

Paul Dunlop  17:12

Yeah. It’s, you know, I say it’s like going to AA, you’ve got to acknowledge that there’s a problem first. You’ve got to take you know, listen to Jocko Willink’s podcasts are taking that ultimate responsibility. It’s, you know, forget blaming the process, or your tools or your people or whatever, it’s all on you. And once you can accept that, and you’re good with that, then we can start moving forward. So, you know, it’s the easy bit of the change process for me is the front lines. I’ll just go out there and go, Hey, what’s going on? And they go blah. One, someone’s actually asked me a question and shows some air about what’s happening. And they’re prepared to listen to me and maybe do something about it. Okay, cool. All right. And let’s go and talk to the leaders and away we go.

Murray Guest  18:11

Can I ask if it’s okay for you to share a story of or an example of one of the companies or teams you have worked with where you’ve seen that shift from chaos to calm and what’s been the impact of that?

Paul Dunlop  18:26

Yes, I won’t mention the client name but a building products manufacturer in Melbourne. So the leader, the production manager is the quintessential chaos agent and I guess when I speak and I share his story with many clients over the last couple of years is that yeah, working 70 hours a week. Absolutely burnt out. Literally when I first started meeting with this guy he would be late to the meetings and that’s just a no no with me. Number one KPI.

Murray Guest  19:13

Just for clarity everyone, Paul was early to our meeting today.

Paul Dunlop  19:18

Yeah, so I was but yeah, and you know, he would be sitting there, the phone would be ringing and just all over the place. He would be everywhere but with me in the room. So we had a few sort of niggly conversations let’s say, but he was able to start to acknowledge that okay, things for him are broken. And we’d go out into the business and yeah, literally chaos, a lot of again in a manufacturing environment, but just a lot of defects in the workplace. A lot of work in process, very messy, disorganized. There had been a couple of attempts of communication and visual management in the workplace but had fallen over. So there was these kind of, and I do see this a lot of, you know, the relics of Lean. So we’ve had a go at Lean, hasn’t worked, not for us.

Murray Guest  20:14

I’ve had a few clients say to me, we’ve done 2S. 

Paul Dunlop  20:17

Yeah. And it’s interesting, a lot of clients, and that’s a whole other topic, but a lot of clients that think they’re doing 5S or, you know, 1 or 2S. But yeah, so this manufacturer, again, what I see is the culture and the performance is always a reflection of the leadership and where the leaders are at. And again, this guy had grown up in the business, 20 year veteran of the process, knew the process intimately, but couldn’t let go. He was just very much out in the day to day, like I said, when when you’ve got managers at that level, their heart and soul is very much out there in the front lines, it just completely crowds a space and people step back. So literally, I would see that, you know, he’d go on the shop floor, he’d be literally, you know, eyeballing and, you know, yelling at people pretty aggressive, because of his internal world. And, you know, as we’ve started to go through and highlight a lot of those things, one of the first things I started with with him, was his Leader Standard Work and starting to challenge what he was doing, how much time was being dedicated, you know, 70 hours, very much a case of, do you really think after 45 hours a week, you’re effective? You know, what are you doing? And, again, his wife was not that happy with the version of him that she did see, you know, he was tired, emotional, all those sorts of things. So, over I think it’s been about 18 months now, I actually had a long conversation with him over the phone yesterday, and he’s moved to a place now where, you know, he’s got the three layers of management underneath him, he’s let go. He’s letting his team leaders and supervisors, his production managers do what they need to do, they’ve now implemented daily communication meetings, I’ve done a power of work around 5S, and the place just looks completely different. Completely different. He’s now going through a period where he, he said, Paul, I’m uncomfortable now because I don’t know what to do with myself. Because I’ve created so much space. 

Murray Guest  22:45

Isn’t that a great place for him to be in though?

Paul Dunlop  22:48

Yeah. And it’s amazing. It’s a great, you know, let’s bring that on. That’s great discomfort to have. And he’s now going okay, well, I see all this opportunity now to, to grow and develop. I have already grown and developed to get to this point. So not everyone can do that. And that’s the discussion I’ve had with him. It’s kind of, you know, being with him along this journey of, you know, self development and growth internally as a leader, but he has been prepared to do that. And he’s got a long way to go. But I say to him, Well, I’m, I’m on the same journey. I’m still learning, I’m still growing, I’m still making mistakes. That’s okay. And that discomfort is where the growth is going to happen.

Murray Guest  23:40

I also wonder about the loss of identity that people go through that work with you, of what they were holding on to which made them who they are, up until that point. And letting that go and creating that new identity. And even for this guy, perhaps where he’s at, a new legacy and a new leadership shadow that he’s casting.

Paul Dunlop  24:03

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I’ve been there probably been there multiple times in not only my professional life, in my, in my personal life, as well. And that is a big part of it. When I talk about that letting go, there’s lots of different types of letting go. I see leadership is something that’s very paternal. And you know, as you watch your kids grow you’re letting go, it’s hard not to be that person that’s doing it for them and then all of a sudden, you’re having to let that go and that changes who you are. So for me, you know, particularly in that process, it’s going from, I guess that almost autocratic type leader to a servant leader and finding the feel good and finding the value in actually helping other people and watching other people grow and develop. And it’s amazing when that starts to happen. And, you know, he’s seen these people almost come from nowhere. And there’s one guy in this particular factory who doesn’t speak, he’s Vietnamese, he’s really working hard on his English but doesn’t speak a lot of English. But he has just been an absolute 5S powerhouse, this guy is just, you know, taking extra time in his work hours to paint lines on the floor and tidy his work area and standardize at all. And it’s amazing. It’s really powerful stuff.

Murray Guest  25:44

I’m thinking about that how that leader has changed his approach through working with you. And that’s created space for other people to learn and grow and step into. And the ripple effect, honestly mate it’s hard to measure, isn’t it? Because it’s not just now, there’s a future ripple effect as well.

Paul Dunlop  26:02

Yeah. And that just keeps, keeps growing. Because other people now are looking at these sort of early adopters, let’s say. And, you know, we’re well and truly through that phase, but other people have seen that and just sort of ridden on the coattails, so to speak. The frontline and middle shop floor management now are owning projects and scoping projects. And so it just grows legs. And that’s where, like I say creating that that space and then actually becoming a leader who grows leaders. And that that’s probably my approach to this and say, well I don’t really care so much about the product or the service. I’m interested in you growing people and developing people. Your KPIs as a leader is how many leaders do you grow and develop? How many leaders do you make? That don’t need to be formal leaders, you know, the guy doing the 5S, he’s a leader.

Murray Guest  27:02

Yeah. I think that’s such a great measure, isn’t it to know who is, and retaining talent, retaining those natural leaders, giving them the opportunity to lead a change, lead an implementation, or lead a team, and they stay with the business. And I’m excited, I look forward to looking back with you in six months time and seeing where this guy’s at. Because as you said, he’s now in this discomfort. Is this stepping into the unknown about well, what’s next for him as well?

Paul Dunlop  27:31

Yeah, and oh, now he’s in that space. And I can keep the tension on and keep sort of, you know, not pushing, but holding him accountable. And that’s almost I think, in my role, that’s what I become is a bit of an accountability measure. I’m there to, you know, give you a cuddle when you need it. But it’s also about continuing to push and to challenge to allow people to grow. And, you know, as far as they want to grow.

Murray Guest  28:04

Yeah. Just want to change the topic a little, not much, just a touch, chaos to calm in 2020. Tell me what you’ve learned or experienced in 2020. With all that we’ve been experiencing, and what you’ve seen, either for yourself or those clients, considering this, this experience we’ve had?

Paul Dunlop  28:35

Yeah. Interesting question. I mean, a lot of that is, I guess, my personal reflections from a consultant point of view. So I’ve been consulting for three years in my own business. And as a consultant, I would have worked pretty much every day in those three years, which is quite an achievement. But within, I think, three days and a few phone calls, I lost probably 50% of my business off the bat. So from my own experience, it’s been very challenging, I’ll say, it’s probably after the kind of initial oh shit type moments, then it was, okay, you know, my own discomfort, and what am I going to do? What am I going to do differently? How am I going to use the time that’s available to me? So that’s been interesting. I’ve been very much the probably the tradesman who never does any work at home. So it’s been good for me to actually look at my business and also spend some time working on you know, my own professional and personal development. So, you know, that that’s kind of how I’ve looked at that. I had early conversations with them. I said, Well, I don’t want to come out the other side, however long this lasts, I don’t want to come out the other side of that feeling like I’ve wasted that time. This is precious time, whether it’s given me more time, I’ve got three kids at home. And it’s given me, you know, a lot of valuable time at home with them and my wife, and it’s just time we never have had outside of, you know, having a holiday or, or whatever. So, that side of things. For my clients, it’s been extremely challenging, particularly in the manufacturing space. So I have a manufacturing client base, I have some local government and not for profit and some other client types or industry types. So yeah, particularly in manufacturing has been really challenging people just getting one their heads around how they manage, you know, from the health and safety point of view, the COVID requirements, how they mitigate the risk in their business, obviously, how the external market conditions have affected them. I’d say some of my clients have never been busier. So they’ve had the challenge of keeping up with the demand in the current environment. Others have, it’s been a bit up and down. And they’ve had to, again, manage those those issues, perhaps losing some employees, often quite valued employees. And that’s been difficult. So there’s been a whole range of different challenges for them. Obviously, the way I support them has been more remote and virtual. At the same time, that’s, you know, to be honest, I would reckon I’d been on zoom half a dozen times, prior to March. And now it’s three, four times a day. And it’s just, it’s provided a different way of doing business. And I’ve enjoyed that, I think the clients have got a lot of benefit out of it, too. It’s made me much more accessible to support them. So yeah, there’s been a lot of difference. But I think everything for me personally, it’s, it’s enriched a lot of things for me, it’s, you know, I’ve picked up international clients through this period now, and oh, this is doable. So yeah, it’s been probably positive.

Murray Guest  32:29

I have very similar path to yourself this year, in regards to my clients, the work I do, and how it’s been very much shifting to online. And also different clients have been impacted. But I’m thinking as you’re talking through your clients, and talk about influencing change, leadership, where’s the best value of my time, removing waste, all those are so valid and important right now, aren’t they? And that’s what’s going to help people get through that, you know, those because the change of a COVID, or a change in industry or a change in you know, a market, they’re all, you know, can put them all in the same bucket, and they’re all going to impact the company and how they respond to that through the things you do, I can see you’re going to help them.

Paul Dunlop  33:14

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the, you know, the client I was talking about before, you know, the change in their thinking has positioned them very, very well for what they had to deal with. And to me, they, they were the gold standard of, you know, how an organization responded to the circumstances, you know, they had a case recently, as well and managed that. And, you know, that obviously, there’s some mandatory reporting and whatnot, goes on. And, you know, the external bodies that came in, were really, really pleased with the way they had managed. So, you know, that that’s an example. But many organizations, I think, in this situation will be wishing that they had, or, you know, thought a little more about, you know, lean or agile or whatever it might be, to put themselves in a position to deal with this. You know, because again, lean really isn’t that different to the design thinking methodology, innovation, you know, PDCA is that’s all it is. It’s about experimentation and throwing ideas around and finding a way forward. So, again, it’s not those businesses that at least are thinking in that way. It’s definitely positioned them in a, you know, put them in a position of strength, or at least it’s given them I think, options.

Murray Guest  34:50

Yeah, and I when we’re going through the conversation earlier about decluttering. It’s hard to see the opportunities for improvement if there is all that crap. There is all that stuff that’s coming up. If you are Marie Kondo in your business, let’s just say, do you refer to Marie Kondo sometimes, Paul?

Paul Dunlop  35:09

No. 

Murray Guest  35:11

You know what I’m talking about, I assume? 

Paul Dunlop  35:13

I actually don’t. 

Murray Guest  35:15

Marie Kondo is the lady that helps people declutter their house. 

Paul Dunlop  35:21

Yeah, okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. 

Murray Guest  35:23

Yeah, the Japanese lady does some great work around does it bring you joy? And if it doesn’t, you know, say goodbye to it and let it go. Does this process bring you joy? Does this piece of equipment bring you joy? If not let it go. Yeah, check it out. I think she challenges some people’s thinking about people feeling like, well, you’re telling me I have to let go of stuff. But obviously, there’s some other mindset stuff there that has to really shift of course, as well. Yeah, but I guess the bit I was thinking about through all that is, it’s hard to see the opportunities if we’re just full of all that deep, that cluttering.

Paul Dunlop  36:07

Yeah. And I think that lies at the heart of a lean approach is just to, you know, talk about the concept of value and non value and waste. And it’s about really creating those visuals around what’s important and getting that focus around what’s important and giving people a sense of that purpose. And I think, you know, to go off on a little bit of a tangent is that one of the first things I will ask people in organizations is, what does a good day look like for you? And most people I find can’t really answer that question very well, but they might have their own idea of what that is. But there’s certainly no clear definition of, at the end of the day this is what achievement looks like for me, this is what success is. And so I look at that. And I think, wow, that’s, that’s really sad that we expect human beings to come to our workplace and give their time, sure they get a paycheck, but put in time and effort, but not to be really clear around what good is, and certainly not to get any feedback around that. So I think that visualization, and I guess the support and energy we can put around that is only a good thing.

Murray Guest  37:40

100%. And that question, of course, looks different for each individual. And that’s something that’s been highlighted, I think, in 2020. Through all the changes of working arrangements and flexibility, how everyone’s situation is very unique. We’ve got to take that into account. And what a best day looks like, does someone get a chance to use their strengths and bring their best selves to work day in, day out? You’ve mentioned Lego a couple of times, and it’s something we both are a bit passionate about, because we can see the benefit of Lego and what it brings. How did you get into Lego Serious Play? Or were you a Lego fan beforehand?

Paul Dunlop  38:26

Okay, so yeah, a Lego fan, I grew up with Lego, I grew up with meccano. So very hands on sort of practical person. Through my lean experience, so I do, you know, run a lot of lean workshops that are simulation based so already understand that the value of kinesthetic learning and practical learning. So there’s a couple, I run a 5S, a PDCA simulation with Lego already. I have an associate in New Zealand, Rob Bull, who is a lean guy as well and sort of late last year started talking about Lego Serious Play and started posting around and I was curious, what’s all this about? So we had a few conversations about it. And he got me excited and got me some exposure to it. So I started doing my own research and yeah, sort of, did my Lego Facilitators training last month with Michael, who you did your training with, so yeah, it’s really, for me, opened up a whole new world and really opened my eyes to I guess the possibilities. So, you know, in my day to day consulting work, I’d run a lot of workshops, a lot of brainstorming sessions and problem solving sessions, whether they’re around strategy or vision or, you know, perhaps root cause analysis, whatever it might be. And you know, there’s a bunch of stakeholders in the room. It’s sticky notes on the wall and those sorts of things. So I guess what Lego now brings is another medium, another tool, to the toolbox. It’s not a one size fits all, as you know, but where Lego now comes in as it starts to, I think create a more democratic process in terms of creating a, it’s not just the the loudest voice in the room that gets heard. By creating a Lego model, you know, it’s almost replacing the sticky note, which is, you know, a few words which may or may not mean anything to people in the room. It’s flat, it’s one dimensional, it’s kind of lifeless, really, whereas a Lego model is bringing that idea to life. And it’s got a story behind it. And we’re starting to obviously talking in metaphors and things.

Murray Guest  40:58

I totally hear everything you’re saying, Paul, and I love the richness of conversation that it generates. And I think for those introverted people that might have trouble articulating a point, as you’re saying, on a post it note or a piece of paper. If you talk to the build that you’ve created, it gives them this opportunity to open up and I’ve loved that richness that helps generate.

Paul Dunlop  41:22

Yeah, 100%. And I think it drives, particularly in a group situation, that curiosity, you know, I’m big on non judgement and curiosity. And it just, I think that that level playing field where people have something very real, very tangible, there’s a, you know, there’s an opportunity to discuss that, there’s an encouragement there for others in the group to ask questions and be curious and it really opens up people, I don’t know how to put it, but there’s much more of an emotional connection to it. There’s a lot more depth to the conversation or the story we learn about the people as well as their their experience. So it’s extremely powerful from that point of view. It is almost like kryptonite. Sometimes you don’t know how powerful that thing is. So yeah, my experience so far, you know, whether it be one on one or in group situations is that this is a tool that provides so much value.

Murray Guest  42:36

I agree from my experience so far. And I’m looking forward to using it more as we’re doing back to more face to face workshops. But you’ve really reminded me as well the power of that kinesthetic learning in that hand-mind connection, and how important that is. And there’s so much of that lost in, in training, and just the day to day work that people do in offices and coming back to that is powerful, and helps that learning process.

Paul Dunlop  43:06

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I think, you know, again, from the outside looking in, yeah it sounds a bit silly and a bit novel, and whatever, but it’s, you know, the underscore is on the Serious, the Lego is just the medium to have that. And yeah, there’s absolutely that, you know, I think as well getting into that flow state, so where people are just lost in, in the actual play, and they’re just thinking about putting blocks together. Obviously, through the Lego Serious Play methodology, there’s always a question. And I like Michael’s approach, don’t have a meeting with yourself, don’t overthink it, you know, just build and it’s like, you know, when you do any personality profiling or any surveys that, you know, the advice is just answer the question as quickly as possible. Just build the model as quickly as possible. And then there’s that, I guess, that reflection at the end where you, you’ve probably had a bit of a thread in your mind around what you’re doing. But you haven’t really thought too much about it. At the end, and in the builds that I’ve done, I’m like, wow, okay, I get this, this makes perfect sense to me. And you’re able to really start to you know, that post hoc thinking and really reflect heavily on it. And it’s amazing how much sense it actually makes to you.

Murray Guest  44:34

Yeah, I, I agree. And I’ve loved using it. And I’m using again with some clients in the coming weeks. And I love again, that process that Michael introduced to me and capturing it with the photos and that, I guess, momento that people have or even anchoring for that conversation they had to then, you know, revisit that in the future and come come back to that and how powerful that’s been so. Yeah, Paul, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on board, chatting about Lego Serious Play just then. But obviously, leadership, change, lean. Helping leaders and cultures go from chaos to calm. I was talking a lot recently about clarity, you talk about clarity and obviously that’s something we’re both aligned in how important that is and what that brings. What’s life look like for the rest of 2020?

Paul Dunlop  45:33

Lots more Lego hopefully. Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve only really started putting that out there over the last few weeks. And it’s generated a lot of interest. So I’m really excited to start doing some some bigger workshops. I’ve got a strategy workshop on the horizon, which I’m really excited about. So yeah, a lot more Lego. Obviously, Melbourne, currently is starting to looking at starting to open up. So there’s been a few clients there that I haven’t physically been able to get to. So I’m looking forward to sort of re establishing that. So yeah, that’s kind of the, the demand stay ahead is yeah, just getting back into physically being in the workplace, which would be good.

Murray Guest  46:25

So hopefully some some good news, I think on Sunday about changes going forward for Victoria, which is, from all that’s been reported numbers are heading in the right direction, which is fantastic. And, of course, challenging times, but that sounds like heading in the right direction and quicker than maybe what was anticipated earlier, which is great. Now I’m going to ask you three last questions. First one is just something you’re happy to share that you love to do that’s not directly work related, what’s something that you want to open up and let us know that you’d love to do that maybe not playing with teams and leaders around lean and Lego and other things.

Paul Dunlop  47:10

I don’t switch off easily. So I am an avid reader. So I kept saying leaders are readers. So it’s very important for me to live my own methodology. So yeah, constantly reading all sorts of books, particularly, I guess, on the topic of leadership, I’ve been reading a lot of Ryan Holidays books lately and getting into stoicism and all of that, which has been fantastic. So yep, constantly reading. The other thing I’ve been I think I posted yesterday, one of the kind of lockdown activities that I’ve really enjoyed is getting into the Wim Hof Method. So doing the breath work and the cold showers and ice baths and all that. So that’s yeah, I’ve really enjoyed that.

Murray Guest  48:01

I did some late last year in Bali, the ice baths. And after my accident, you know, controlling my breath and that mindfulness was quite difficult. And I still remember the first bath I lasted like 40 seconds and my wife found it very funny. I was panting and breathing all over the place but day five I was in the ice bath for over six minutes. So yeah, it’s hard to explain to someone if they haven’t done it the impact that has on I think focus, energy. I loved it.

Paul Dunlop  48:39

Yeah, it’s fantastic. And just starting to get to that point where you’re controlling your autonomic responses. Yeah. Very powerful stuff.

Murray Guest  48:51

Well done. And again, there’s a great example of something that you can’t just do once you got to persevere. You’ve got to keep going at it. Second last question, your definition of inspired energy? 

Paul Dunlop  49:07

Hmm, for me, inspired energy. I guess where I see that and almost what I live for and in my job is where I’m sure you’ve seen this, is the light comes on in people’s eyes. For me, at the front lines of organizations where people have, you know, what we’ve talked about through our conversation, that that space and that ownership and that permission to really grab hold of what they’re doing and to make change, to make positive change, or at least to the joy of the process of experimentation. So for me, everything I do is geared towards that moment where the penny drops and people get get that. It is literally inspired energy. Yeah.

Murray Guest  50:05

And I hear you. And you’re right. I’ve seen that. And that that drives me for the work that I do. And it’s funny, I was running a workshop recently, one of my first face to face workshops, and a leader’s name came up and he said, I met that leader years ago, and I’ve just done some more work with him. And now he’s all switched on. He’s driving us. He’s identifying hazards, and we’re improving. He goes, do I have you to blame? Oh, that’s a good thing I think. So that was good. So yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Paul Dunlop  50:39

100%. And that’s exactly what it looks like. So for me, yeah, all the hard work, all of the difficult conversations, all of the slow going, it’s all worth it for those moments.

Murray Guest  50:52

Yeah, I agree. Paul, you do amazing work, and sustainable work too which is so important, and not just ticking the box, which I think is so needed. If anyone wants to reach out and check out the work you do or to contact you, where’s the best place to do that online?

Paul Dunlop  51:11

At the moment, it will be LinkedIn. So there is a website under construction at the moment so that will arrive hopefully in the next few weeks. But yeah, LinkedIn is the best way. Currently, my contact details are all on there. So yeah, please don’t hesitate to get in touch.

Murray Guest  51:29

Yeah, fantastic. And as of course you are based in Melbourne, but with what’s going on in the world, you are available to serve people all around the world. Absolutely. So if anyone listening to this conversation, if you’ve got something out of it, and I’m sure you did. Paul has a wealth of knowledge that he just shared. Make sure you share it online, on LinkedIn, tag Paul and myself. And let us know, that would be awesome. Paul, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the chat. Look forward to keeping in contact and all the best for the rest of 2020.

Paul Dunlop  52:06

No thank you, Murray. Appreciate that. And it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Episode 64 – Michael Fearne | Expert in LEGO Serious Play (Pivotal Play)

In this episode I chat with Michael Fearne, who is the founder of Pivotal Play, a facilitation consultancy in Melbourne, Australia.

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Transcript

Murray Guest  00:01

Michael, welcome to the podcast. It’s great to catch up. It feels like so long ago since I met you in January of this year on the LSP course. So much has changed since then, how have you been keeping?

Michael Fearne  00:14

I’ve been keeping very well. It’s a lifetime ago, it feels like, it really was. But yeah, going well, obviously. Strange Times, but doing well, the family’s doing well.

Murray Guest  00:25

Yeah, I think that a main thing is that they’re all you know, well, healthy at the moment, and a renewed perspective on health and well being. I mean, you and I were just chatting even about our immunity and how important that is right now. But I also want to just start off the bat and say it was such a great course. And yes, we got to play with Lego. And yes, I learned about Lego serious play. But you also created a really good atmosphere over those three days connecting with different participants, and about the essence of play and how important play is. So I’m so glad that we can catch up and talk more about that.

Michael Fearne  01:02

Yeah, no, I love those three days, like I actually learned a lot myself, it’s probably the most favorite part of my, my working life. So yeah, it’s the people I get to meet like yourself and others, it’s great.

Murray Guest  01:14

So tell me, why are you so passionate about play? And how did you get to be in this position you’re in now where you are training people on helping organizations through play and Lego serious play? How did this all come about?

Michael Fearne  01:29

Wow, that’s a fantastic question. How did I get here?

Murray Guest  01:33

Yeah.

Michael Fearne  01:34

All these things. It’s funny, I was thinking, I’ve been thinking a lot about that, about how you get to where you are, particularly in these times. And I think it’s funny, I was thinking about the connecting the dots. So I know it was, I think was Steve Jobs, his 2005 Stanford commencement speech where he talks about, you can only connect them backwards, you know, you can never sort of see forwards. And so I’ve been thinking back to, well, how did I get to this point, like a lot of people think oh, Michael, you know, you play with Lego all day, and you get paid for it. And it’s fantastic. And it is, but it’s, it’s more about, like, where it all sort of started. And all goes back to when I was younger, and even even sort of, you know, growing up thinking about how I sort of learned to play and we all learn to play in lots of different ways. And I think that the play that I liked, and it was, you know, it wasn’t actually more solitary play. I don’t know if you knew this Murray but do you remember the Choose Your Own Adventure books?

Murray Guest  02:26

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So yes, used to borrow them from the school library and used to dive into them for the week or two weeks, we could borrow them. And then yeah, loved it. Loved it.

Michael Fearne  02:37

Yeah. And so that’s where I started, like, you know, you, for those who don’t know, it’s like, you know, you read a passage, and then you choose where to go in the book. It’s like you’re part of the story. And so that’s where I really started my love of playing and going along and showing my sort of nerdy sort of background, I ended up in other games like computer games, and it’s all throughout, I guess, my childhood, like a lot of people, you start to learn about play, that’s how you experience the world. And you sort of go away from it in that sort of, you know, maybe in your 20s, and you start to get into work and play gets sort of sidelined.

Murray Guest  03:08

All the seriousness of life comes in doesn’t.

Michael Fearne  03:11

It’s like we have this separate world. Well, we, when we’re younger, the things that just merge. So play is just your life. And then suddenly we split and we work and play. It’s this thing that happens in the evening, or it happens on the weekends. And it’s compartmentalized. And so yeah, I think for me, it’s been about bringing those sort of two worlds back together. That’s been sort of my journey. And that’s what I hopefully do for people like yourself that come along to a course or perhaps in my workshop, it’s about sort of bringing those two worlds back together. And so yeah, just looking back, you sort of connect all these dots. And I think, Oh, yeah, look back. And, you know, I loved, I love story. And I love play. And I sort of see all that in my work now.

Murray Guest  03:51

And I will obviously talk a little bit about LSP, which is the Lego Serious Play, because you’re right, it’s not just about creating, that I’ve learned, it’s about the story and the questions and the ability for people to communicate more deeply. But something has popped in my head, I just don’t want to lose the thought. It’s about that loss of play due to judgment. I think about when I take my kids to the park, and they make friends with whoever’s there, and then they play and and then they move on. But they just, they’re in the moment playing, having fun, or at home. And I think there’s something about that loss of play due to we start to worry too much about what other people are thinking, Oh, I might look silly, I might look foolish, and then we stop playing. What’s your thoughts on that? Do you think that that’s a part of what we’re talking about? 

Michael Fearne  04:39

Oh that’s a huge part of it. And it’s all the things that like Brene Brown talks about that being vulnerable and play is, you know, you’re ultimately vulnerable, like you’re sending out you know, these trust signals like, Oh I’ll try this and, you know, what will the other people think and that’s what you’re doing, play, and that just gets shut down quite often in work environments and adult life and so yeah. It’s almost like, we don’t dare to play, because we worry about the judgment of others. And so if you can sort of embrace that vulnerability, and just play and see what happens, then yeah, it opens up so many, so many different avenues and options and exploration, which is what we did when we were kids.

Murray Guest  05:18

Yeah. And I think about play in the workplace, in the sense of if you can play it psychologically safe. And I think there’s a big difference between play, which is, you know, tomfoolery, as we would say, in Australia, I don’t know if they say that overseas, but you know, just just fooling about, not doing your work, but the element of play to bring that into the work you do. What do you know or what have you seen, when an organization or team start to do that? What does it mean for them? What is it? What’s the impact?

Michael Fearne  05:51

Yeah, I think it’s a really good distinction to make about like the history of play in work, because you’re exactly right. It’s, it’s been a very separate thing. And we all know, yeah, let’s go and do the team building, go karts thing, let’s have a ping pong table in our, you know, in our breakout room, and that has some benefits, like, there are different health and well being benefits. But it’s, I mean, it’s still that separation, it’s like, let’s do play over there. Let’s do work over here. And as you mentioned, it’s, to me it’s about bringing those things together. And so what that means is, it’s almost think of it more as playfulness, rather than just play. So it’s like this, this lens that you can put on, this playful lens that you can bring to your work. And it’s not something that you do all the time, like people think okay, play at work is that that guy or girl that joking around and, and for me, it’s more about taking a playful approach to the work you’re doing. And that’s why I love something like Lego Serious Play so much. So it’s just the work that you’re doing, you just like layering in a playful lens to your work. And that gives you different insights, then you can sort of take the lens or take the hat off, and then, you know, do work in a different way. But I think, I think for me, that’s what is playfulness. And what I see is just what we talked about before, it just frees people up. Like, you know, I think the modern business manager for the last probably 30 or 40 years has been about squeezing efficiency, you know, get more out of that orange, more juice, and suddenly there’s nothing left. And that that only takes you so far. And I think what play can do is and and what businesses need is new ideas, new directions, like you don’t efficient your way to sort of innovative new products and services and delighting customers, like you just can’t squeeze enough. And so I think that’s what play can do for and does for organizations, it just opens up whole new fields and whole new ways of thinking that allows different different services, different products. And that’s that’s sort of what I do with my my work with Lego Serious Play. But I think play more broadly can do that in business.

Murray Guest  07:55

Yeah, I’m just reflecting on different teams I’ve worked in or with over the years. And it’s like, you know, when you walk into a room, and there’s been a joke told, but no one’s laughing. But you know, something’s happened. There’s been a joke, there’s an essence to that environment to that room. And I feel like play brings, that may be a bit of magic, if I may use that word and say, okay, we are connecting, we have a bit of fun, we are doing serious things. But we don’t have to be over serious about it all the time. And creativity, innovation, I’m just thinking how that comes out in those teams more easily, but also in a way that builds off each other. And I know when we play with Lego, and we build the models, and we add them we we let go of the ego and build off each one of those. So yeah, just hearing you describe that. And I’m just thinking about how that looks in those teams that embrace that. Because I think honestly, Michael, right now it’s needed more than ever, after what we’ve been through in the past three months.

Michael Fearne  08:59

Definitely. And all the benefits of it from in from everything from wellbeing, to new ideas to new directions. But yeah, it’s interesting to talk about like going to that team, and we talked about psychological safety before. Yeah, I think a lot of these things build on each other. So if you get a team that’s comfortable to explore together, and there is that psychological safety, then you can bring in play, and it just does, it just builds on each other and builds up and up and up. And you’re talking about ego as well, I think. I think what play does is you’re so in my, like if I could think about when you were a kid or like, like me with my little daughter, like you watch play. And then like you’re just so in play, like you’re in flow. And I think that’s what it can do. It can help you to get out of out of your own way. So we’re all, we’re all very in business, we’re all very used to not the facade, but we’re used to a particular norm and a particular way of acting and I think that that hides both good ideas and also who you really are. And I think what play does is it just breaks that down. So I talked about breaking the facade down. And yeah, when you when you play, you can’t help but be in it and be you and, and ego sort of goes to the side, the business ego goes to the side and everything starts to flow and come out. And I think that’s what you want, like you want ideas coming out, you want diversity, you want to hear what you’re saying and what someone else from the team is saying. And because ultimately, I think creativity and new ideas is about connection, it’s about human connection, but it’s also about just connecting different ideas. So they’ve got an idea, they’ve got an idea, let’s take a bit of this, let’s put it together, much like we do with the Lego bricks, put them together, and suddenly you’ve got something new, it’s just nothing, nothing just comes formed out of the ether. It’s always, it’s always the, you know, a mixture of the things that you’re exposed to. And I think that’s what play can facilitate, because we just get out out of out of our own way.

Murray Guest  10:53

So in a practical sense, let’s say a leader’s listening to our conversation and thinking, Okay, how would I bring play into my team? How could I have a more playfulness in our discussions or problem solving? What’s a simple sort of way that could look or a practical way that could look?

Michael Fearne  11:14

Yeah, the first thing I always say is actually look at yourself and your approach. So I think to start with mindset, and whether it’s the leader, or whether, you know, you’re wherever you are in an organization, I always say don’t don’t wait for the organization to embrace play and make it a standard operating procedure. Like I always say…

Murray Guest  11:34

I like that. Yeah, it sort of sounds a bit weird when you say like that.

Michael Fearne  11:38

Yeah. But I mean, that’s the thing with with play, and sort of innovative methods and things like that. No, no company, no big organization is going to say, look, we’re going to adopt this across the board. So for example, the stuff I do with Lego Serious Play, I’ve worked with some really interesting, even conservative organizations, but like some something like a KPMG, or an EY, or a big bank, or things like that, they’re not going to do the whole like, not the whole organization is going to do it. It’s almost like built into the organization as a system that they they can’t, like the whole thing can’t, as I say, bring it back to you personally. So whether it’s you or your team, and the first thing is a mindset. And the first thing is to think it just needs to be integrated. So I just need to think it will happen, you know, bringing in a play lens whenever I see a problem. So if you’ve got a problem, and your normal way of doing it is just not working, think about how I can do that playfully. And there’s, there’s more, you know, techniques, I obviously use just the one – Lego Serious Play – which I think is fantastic. But you know, there’s other techniques that people use. I love the simple question of how would someone else solve this problem? So how, how would Airbnb solve this problem, how we will solve this problem? It’s just, it’s literally just playing with different options. And it all starts with your own mindset. And I think if you can, if you’re a leader, you can role model that, then that starts to filter down and be part of the culture.

Murray Guest  13:00

Yeah, leadership shadow. Leadership shadow, or if you’re a project manager, and you’ve got that shadow, you cast over the group of people. And that shadows cast instantaneously isn’t it, when you walk in the room, through your mindset, through what you bring? And that either creates a potentially serious and very, you know, I guess, didactic relationship? Or is it a playful situation? So how you show up is going to set that isn’t it?

Michael Fearne  13:30

Totally, totally. And it doesn’t have to be you come into the room and crack jokes like that’s not…

Murray Guest  13:35

Yes, yes. Good point.

Michael Fearne  13:36

I’m a serious person, like I’m noticing I’m not even that hugely playful. But it’s about this mindset of, Okay, well, how can we look at this differently? How can I bring this different playful lens to the work and I think people actually, it’s funny, like in organizations people are just looking for permission to do it. Like, when I say you can do this, like whether it’s with Lego bricks, people like, it just opens them up, like, play is just so deeply embedded with people like, it’s it’s the skill that we’ve been learning the longest, like, literally, it’s how we interact with the world from when we can first pick something up and put it in our mouth. And it’s there. It’s just like, you need to give people permission or unlock it, or I think you can do that by role modeling. I think you can do that by sort of saying, look, let’s look at a more playful approach at this.

Murray Guest  14:21

I think a good distinction there, again, that you shared is it’s not about cracking jokes and trying to be funny. It’s the element of play. And I’d even I just want to add to that is it’s also about there’s a process to it as well. It’s not like, let’s just throw Lego on the floor and go and play with it. There’s, there’s a process that goes with that.

Michael Fearne  14:41

Yeah. And look, I think, I think in terms of playfulness at work, you can go either way, you can have a very structured process. I personally like that. And that’s what why I love Lego Serious Play. You come in and there are steps and it sort of channels that but you can do a sort of more freeform playfulness. So I’m thinking some examples of, there was Southwest Airlines in the US, I’ve listened to a couple of videos of some of the flight attendants, when they’re doing the safety stuff at the start of, you know, you’re on a plane you’re about to take off, they’re doing the safety stuff. And they they give, they give their people sort of sort of free rein to sort of liven that up how they want. And you think, Oh my god, you know, safety procedure, let’s lock it down, like say the exact words like, you’re in Australia, we have videos and but over there, like there’s a guy doing a rap of safety stuff. And what it does is it breaks through, you know, the normal, you know, boring safety stuff, and suddenly people are listening and they’re engaged. I mean, that’s just a little mindset thing that that obviously leadership in that organization says, look, be a bit playful with this.

Murray Guest  15:44

I think Southwest do it well, Air New Zealand’s the other one, Air New Zealand have a collection that I’ve seen that they do very well. And you’re right. Again, it’s about there’s a serious message there about safety that we all understand the requirements in a crisis or emergency on the plane. Yet, many people that fly a lot like you and I have, it’s like, I’ve heard this so many times, I start to, start to maybe tune out a little bit not paying attention. So when that playfulness comes in, it’s like, oh, this is a bit different. You’ve got my attention. And it’s interesting. And I’ll remember that, and we talk about it. So yeah, that’s a great example of a simple change but big impact.

Michael Fearne  16:28

Yeah, and what it does for me, something like that, it connects on a human level as well, like I’m connecting more to that person that’s saying it and more likely to then do that thing that they’re they’re talking about, because I’m listening more, but I’m also just connecting more as a human. And there are other I mean, other examples, quite often it’s environmental, like when you think of play in, in businesses, they, they often look to the environment to do that. And I think that’s another way. So I think you can do it just as part of your work. But there’s also an environmental aspect to it as well. So I know that a company like Pixar, obviously, you know, the animation studio, very creative, and they all work in in huts. So not your open plan office, they had these cool little huts. And I know another example is the Google offices in Sydney have got the lifts, you go out and you’re in the train carriage and have these little scooters that you can scoot around to different rooms and things like that. And I think what that shows is it’s not each individual thing that is not that important, but it just shows a playful approach to getting to the next meeting or playful approach to doing the work. And so whether it’s environmental, whether it’s process driven, as there’s lots of different ways you can bring in a more playful approach.

Murray Guest  17:38

I even think back to your example about the ping pong table in the breakout room, or in the kitchen. And I’ve just got this image in my head of people sitting in their cubicles, typing away on the computer, and then it’s lunchtime, they go and play ping pong. And then they go back to their cubicles. And it’s like, hang on. That’s that’s not what play is at all. That’s not what we’re talking about. 

Michael Fearne  18:02

Yeah, yeah, I think for me, that’s, it’s like a really fuzzy ROI. Like, yeah, there is something there, there is a health and wellbeing aspect to that, which I think is important. But I think we can integrate play with work much better. And just like I said, just do your work in a more playful way. And I think as other things I still think can be around. But it’s sort of not stuff that I’m super interested in. I’m sort of super interested in how we actually achieve outcomes, but in a playful way.

Murray Guest  18:28

Can I ask, did you have a connection with Lego when you were a child and so therefore, Lego Serious Play was an easy sort of path for you?

Michael Fearne  18:38

Yeah, so like, like a lot of people you know, sort of hitting that that middle age. So I’m 42 at the moment and I definitely played with with Lego. I remember the sort of the space Lego was a very fun one, the moon base plates and all sorts, I can remember all of those, that was the iconic ones from sort of childhood growing up in the 80s. So yeah, that was a big part of my childhood. But like with a lot of people, it, it sort of, sort of tailed off in my later teenage years. Like Lego, we’re very aware as a company that their products are, for a lot of people, tails off around 13-14. And look honestly through my 20s and early 30s I didn’t touch a piece of Lego at all, like I wasn’t, I wasn’t a big Lego nut. And I just came across Lego Serious Play as a facilitation method. And I thought, wow, like I had used playful methods before, I had even taken PlayStations to my workshops before and yeah, cool, got people doing karaoke. So I definitely was into the playful approach because I find it’s a good way of stealth learning. You know, people don’t really realize they’re learning when you’re doing it in a playful way. But then, yeah, when I came across Lego Serious Play it, it just ticked all the other boxes of, you know, making like a method of opening people up and all that sort of stuff. So but then, yeah, then I got into Lego Serious Play. And yeah, I have a lot of Lego, 1000s and 1000s of dollars, the good thing is it’s all tax deductible because it’s a business expense. But I don’t play with a lot of Lego myself. Like my daughter comes in and steals daddy’s work Lego, and plays a lot with that, which was fun. But yeah, I don’t. And the great thing about something like Lego Serious Play is it brings a lot of people that love Lego, and then it brings people who don’t love Lego but want the results. And it just is like a nice melting pot. And I think that’s what play can do. We all connect with it in some way.

Murray Guest  20:33

Yeah. So I remember after the workshop in January, and I was so excited and keen, and I think a few weeks later, I had a team workshop. And I brought my, my Lego Serious Play kit, which has 1000s of pieces, can’t remember now what we had in there. And I remember, it was quite a leveler for the team. Because a couple of people said, Oh, I love Lego, I want to dive straight in and someone else said, Oh, I’m no good at building and sat there. And then someone else said, I like to follow the plan. And then once I then, you know, went through, we’re gonna explore a question. And this is the power of what we’re trying to do here. Everyone sort of then came together in a way that they could then build and then discuss. And it actually, you could see that and I just, I loved it to see this shift in the way they were approaching the Lego as a as a tool to be honest, but also themselves as well.

Michael Fearne  21:31

Yeah, and, and that’s it, it’s so interesting. It’s almost like the Lego brick is, it’s like almost like a not a diagnostic tool. But it shows people’s relationship to play and their, their own mindset around creativity. And once you get past that, and you know, you realize that everyone’s got it. Everyone can play, everyone’s creative, everyone can tell the story. And once once you get that across the people and they experience and realize that it does all the things you’re talking about. Any I’m pretty passionate about Lego Serious Play as a method. And we haven’t really talked about you know much about what it actually is and things like that. 

Murray Guest  22:04

I was going to give you the, Give me the 25 words or less description here.

Michael Fearne  22:08

Well, it’s interesting I was doing this fun Lego Serious Play again a couple of days ago, and there was a guy who was sort of really instrumental in the in the early days of it called David Gauntlet, and he just described it as look, you just you just build things, and you’re talking about things. And I think that’s a really good way you use Lego to build sort of ideas and concepts and anything that’s in your mind, you can sort of get out as a 3D model. But you don’t do it in a literal way. You do it in a very story based metaphorical way. And there’s all these instructions about how you can do that and help to do that. But it’s a very sort of, very freeing method in terms of, it’s just getting what’s in your head out in some sort of object that you can talk about. And it sounds very simple. But once you’ve seen the power, once you do that, you you can externalize these ideas, then you can have conversations, and it’s easy to talk about something rather than being a head to head thing. It’s like, there’s an object that helps you to communicate.

Murray Guest  23:08

Yeah, and I know, from my experience on a couple of sessions, that it helps have the tough conversations as well, because like you’re saying, we’re talking about the model. And I think you even said during our program, Lego Serious Play helps construct the inside world versus the outside world. So we’re constructing the inside feelings, how I’m thinking, what are some of my emotions, and then I can talk about that in a safer way. And share that.

Michael Fearne  23:36

Yeah. Because it can be quite confronting when you’re, you know, whether it’s power dynamics, whether it’s something emotional, where you’re just talking, you know, person to person face to face, like that can be a very powerful, overwhelming, you know, experience for a lot of people where, if you can bring an object into it and allows you to talk through that, we talked about it being object mediated communication, where it’s like you’re talking through the object, and that it’s funny, all this very sounds, it all sounds so simple, let’s just use Lego bricks, and build and it is at the surface, but underneath, there’s just so many amazing things going on from the story and metaphor and new knowledge and flow. Like there’s so many amazing things that go underneath that I won’t dive too much into but it’s just, it’s satisfying to see it work time and time again. And I just go into every workshop with it going, I know it’s going to work because it has every other time. It’s so satisfying as a facilitator.

Murray Guest  24:32

I also think, well, while you’re not diving down, I know there’s that big link to kinesthetic learning. And and, you know, let’s, let’s put people in a room and tell them to sit down and learn and write stuff down. Versus let’s get them touching things, playing with objects, building, and I know the latter is going to be far more memorable and far more impactful for their learning and and connecting as people as well.

Michael Fearne  25:04

And I think what is, just you describing that there, what I’ve realized it’s just, it’s, it’s unlocking a lot of different ways of being that has been sort of restricted in the business world. So, you know, we’ve had these play skills which we don’t use it work, so we’re sort of unlocking that. And then when you talk about kinesthetic, it’s like, well, we don’t use our hands a whole lot. And so it’s just unlocking all these things that we all have, but for some reason, with business, we’ve sort of narrowed down what’s acceptable. And so it’s just, it’s just tapping into all the skills, you know, I’m sort of a more well rounded person, like a human connection, play, hands, all that sort of stuff.

Murray Guest  25:41

And I mentioned this at the start. And I think right now, it’s even more needed. Because I’m hearing so many people through COVID-19 and working from home and changing working conditions are rediscovering hobbies, rediscovering things they used to do, rediscovering bits that brought them joy, and a lot of that’s play. So art and craft and music. And like, you know, I’ve seen lots of people building Lego as well. And then it’s like, Okay, now let’s get back to work the way it was.

Michael Fearne  26:16

Yeah, it’s, it’s funny, like, it’s been such an interesting time. It’s, you know, it’s been, for a lot of people it’s been so very harrowing. But then it for you know, for others, it’s, it’s a thing that can open up a new world for them. And no, some people will go back to the way it was, some people want to hold on to that I’m just a big fan of change and adapting to change. And, obviously, you know, I run my business and so it’s always, you always sort of keeping on the edge of, of everything. But I just hope enough people really embrace you know, playful approaches like this and different. I mean, really, it’s a new way of working, this playful approach and I just don’t think it’s, I don’t think we should be building, rebuilding what we had, I think we should just be rebuilding something new because there’s other tools there and other ways of working that they can help to build so many different better worlds, you know, we’ve had in the past.

Murray Guest  27:14

Yeah. 100%. And what’s on your plate right now. So what’s coming up for you? What are you working on?

Michael Fearne  27:23

Well, it’s been interesting, like, I often talk about the sort of the, what I do, so Lego Serious Play facilitation, all of that. I’ve been diving a bit into the how I do it. So I’ve just finished my, earlier in the year finished writing a book, just going through the process of getting that published now. So it should be out later in the year. So that’s, that’s a real ‘how-to’ do all this stuff. The thing that’s really fascinating me, one of the things is the why, sort of why it works, why I do what I do. And so I’m already, my mind’s already going to another book of why these things work, probably should get the first one out. I think on a personal level, that’s probably for me is really diving into the why these things work. And I love that stuff. Now, that’s, that’s not particularly appealing to everyone and just, you know, often with what I do is it just works and people have it at a, you know, not at a high level, but it just works level. Whereas I really want to know why and the sort of depths of that. That’s one thing, the other side of it is community, like this time these last few months has just reinforced to me the sense of community and the communities that I mean, and particularly say with a Lego Serious Play community, I’ve started one of those, and I’m really, really diving into how to grow a community. So it’s yes, getting people like myself that are around the world and connecting them and how to promote that and do that. And this event we had just earlier in the week we had, you know, there was 68 people on a zoom call from 32 different countries. And it was such a, like the generosity and the sharing like it was just all free. Everyone was just, you know, the speakers, the participants, the people organizing. And so yeah, it’s something I think community is something that I was moving towards before this, but I think it’s really reinforced that. That’s where we’re gonna go. I think a lot of people are realizing that too. It’s like, it’s the human connection, you’ve all been listening.

Murray Guest  29:15

Yeah, I totally agree. And I even get the feeling that again, through the past three, four months that that connection, the appetite for it’s even stronger, and even on a global level, as you said, so it’s not just that, yes, there’s a connection next door, but then the connection around the world where we can explore those common things that we are passionate about. And I think also the appetite for doing things online is definitely changing. I mean, zoom usage has just gone through the roof. And their profit of course, but yeah, that’s changed as well. But just on that, I was going to ask something that popped in my head before, play with online training. We had a bit of a chat about this a few weeks ago, I know, um, what’s what’s your thoughts there?

Michael Fearne  30:02

Well, it’s interesting, you talk about the online stuff, because I like, like, to me, I’ve noticed that too, I’ve noticed that, you know, the acceptability of online, like, whether it’s learning, it was moving towards that where, you know, people were getting comfortable doing a lot more online. But this is obviously definitely sped that up. And I think that’s a good thing, because that just opens the world up even more. So you know, you can have 32 different countries in a room and things like that. So I think for me, that that’s going to be a focus for me as well. It’s like, well, how can I, you know, do more online and bring more people together? In terms of bringing play to online learning, I’m, I’m a big fan of, while I love online, I’m a big fan of hands and doing and building and physical, like, obviously, I use Lego bricks. So I’m always using the online stuff as a medium to tell people to do things in their space. Often, whether it’s Lego Serious Play, where I’m still getting people to build physically, just use the Zoom call, or the online call, or the online training to allow the communication of it. So I’m just a big fan of, you know, sending people off to parts of the house to get objects. And I mentioned David Gauntlet earlier in the call. So he’s a, he’s a professor in Canada, around creativity. And he runs these sessions where he literally gets people to get different objects from the house, bring them back, tell a story about them. And I think that sort of playful, creative approach of using what’s in the house, finding things, bringing it in, you know, into the online world, I think is the approach that I take and sort of recommend.

Murray Guest  31:40

So anyone listening that’s on any of my future online sessions, look out, you’re going to be getting stuff from places of your house and treasure hunt. Yeah, I know. We remember talking about that. But it’s one of those things just to bring into the facilitation, because I think it’s, it’s, again, the element of play and sharing. And obviously, you link beautifully to vulnerability as well. So yeah, yeah. Mike, this has been such a great chat. I’ve really enjoyed connecting with you, talking about your passion for play. And honestly, I get this childlike feeling when you talk about it, your energy for it. And you did bring into my awareness back in January, this word of neoteny. I think I pronounced it correctly. I hope so. So I, I just love what that is all about. And from my memory it’s about how as adults, we keep some of those juvenile characteristics. And I think that’s what you’re talking about.

Michael Fearne  32:43

Yeah, it’s all in us. It’s all still within us. And it’s been growing, it’s been developing for however old you are. It’s this sort of, the oldest skill is, is being a child and play. And it’s like, well just tap into it. It’s there. Everyone’s got it. I’ve seen it time and time again, play, stories. We all have it.

Murray Guest  33:03

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So just to wrap this up, I want to say thank you so much. It’s been, again, as I said, I get this, this joy and this buzz from our conversation. So I really appreciate your time. Thank you for sharing all of your knowledge. And I’m so excited about your book coming out. And I can’t wait to get a copy when it comes out. So make sure you let me know and make sure you come back on the podcast. So we can talk about your book as well.

Michael Fearne  33:27

Definitely, definitely. And yeah, I just wanted to say as well, Murray, like, always happy to chat about this with anyone. So if anyone in the audience just, I love play. I love talking about all this stuff. And seeing a more playful approach in the world just makes me happy.

Murray Guest  33:41

Fantastic, Mike, and thank you for that generosity. And just to wrap this up, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Michael Fearne  33:48

What’s interesting with inspired energy, so I think for me, the inspiration comes from people. I’m just, you probably don’t know this about me, but I’m at an extreme introvert, like I love my facilitator, but I come back home and I’m just like, I wind down, but I get inspired from the connections with other people. So I get that energy when I hear a story and that you don’t normally hear in business. And that’s what really inspires me. And when you say inspired energy, it made me think of something else, it made me think of aligned energy. Like I love what I do, because I don’t think of it as work. Like it’s just like, don’t settle for, you know, if you aren’t aligned, like find that passion. It’s almost like a cliche message that people send out now, but once you’re aligned with what you love doing and like, the energy just flows. Once it all lines up.

Murray Guest  34:40

I totally agree. I’ve asked this question over 60 times. And I love that definition of that alignment and how important that is because I’m a big believer in there’s no such thing as living a life of TGIF – Thank God it’s Friday. Let’s be TGIM – Thank God it’s Monday. I love what I do, and I get to do it every day. So I love that. So thank you, Michael. Thank you so much. And honestly anyone listening if you got something out of our conversation I hope you did, I reckon you would have because Michael’s passion certainly came across, please tag Mike and I and share it online, hashtag inspired energy. Again, Mike, thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate the chance to connect and chat and I hope you keep well keep warm, it’s getting cold and keep healthy.

Michael Fearne  35:30

You too, play well.