Episode 113 – Dr Rajesh Kumar | Cross-Cultural Competence

In this episode I speak with Dr Rajesh Kumar — an expert in International Business Strategy and Cross-Cultural Management — on the importance of cultural competence in shaping global business success.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

Rajesh, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I really appreciate our quick chat that we just had and getting to know you a little bit. But I’m really excited about sharing the uniqueness of your expertise and what you do with the podcast community today. Thank you so much. Now, something that I know about you is you’ve lived in a variety of places around the world. 

Rajesh Kumar  

Correct. Yes. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Because your work has taken you to some amazing places. Where are you living right now?

Rajesh Kumar  

I’m in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Murray Guest  

I have been there. It was a really enjoyable trip. And it’s a beautiful part of the world. How’s how’s life there at the moment for you?

Rajesh Kumar  

Well, you know, it’s it’s good. It’s just been extremely hot the past few days, or the last week or 10 days, it’s been in the 90s. And that’s been a little surprising. But I think it’s going to cool down. And so that’s good.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, good. Well, in the 90s. So we’re talking high 30s, pushing into the 40s.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I mean, this is the kind of temperature you get in India, during the summer.

Murray Guest  

You don’t expect it in Philadelphia? No.

Rajesh Kumar  

Well, no summers can be hot, you know, but I think you may even get 90s or even more than that. But you do not get 20 or 30 days of that.

Murray Guest  

Ah, yeah. Yeah. That continual. 

Rajesh Kumar  

That’s the saga. Okay. You can you can get it does get hot in the summer.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Well, so your area that you have been working in for some time is international business strategy and cross cultural management. I understand that. So help me understand how did you get to be focusing in this part of the work that you do? How did you get to focus on this?

Rajesh Kumar  

So I think a number of things one was my own personal experience as I moved from India to England, and then to the United States. And so the first thing one noticed was that India and England are very different societies culturally, historically. And you know, when you cross cultures, you do face challenges, whether communication, whether in understanding other people’s thinking. So I did face a cultural shock when I moved to England, and and then again, when I moved to the US, so I think I became attuned to the idea that cultural differences are important. And then later on, I think, in the mid 80s, when I was completing my PhD at NYU, I focused on the cross cultural dimension. And at that time, you know, there were a lot of Japanese companies coming to the United States. And so there was a huge cultural gap. And in fact, and, and I focused on negotiations and looking at how culture impacts that. And what amazes me is that in 1987, 1988 it is understandable, because America is a big market, they’re not dependent on any other countries. So there were traditionally insular and there was a good reason for, for that, a lot of American companies really didn’t expose much of the demand and our was internal, so there’s no need to do it. But fast forward 30, 35 years, 40 years down the road, when you go to any supermarket and buy and notice that most of the things are from China, or from other Asian countries. And you’ll see very little Made in America, and I suspect the same might be in Australia as well. So the world has become a very different place, very globalized yet, you know, when you talk to people on these free, you know, people, just the ordinary people, they’re still clueless about culture.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I’ve traveled a little bit and my skin crawls, my hairs stand up a little bit, when I do see those people traveling and they’re not appreciative, they’re not respectful of those cultural differences. And I think that when we do there’s there’s a real curiosity there that has to come out isn’t there?

Rajesh Kumar  

Right? That is still not there. Right. You know, I think, and I think in America, as you know, in particular, there has always been the belief in American exceptionalism. And and I think the idea that everyone should imitate what Americans do, America is the best. And that feeling is still there. But I think and so when you have that feeling, then it also impacts the ability to learn from others. Right? So if, if American values are global values, then then of course, why should people learn from, from any others. So there’s a unique aspect to this particular culture. And yet the thing is that a lot of businesses, a lot of alliances and more partners from China or Japan or elsewhere. So in the business community, there is definitely an awareness, but still not that much. And what America actually, as a unique situation, because of its place in the global economy, I think the same blindness, or cultural blindness, I would say exists in all countries. 

Murray Guest  

I think that’s a good point to make, and I want to understand that a bit more around, it’s not about pointing the finger at one country is it, it’s around, that there’s a consistent shift that needs to be made?

Rajesh Kumar  

Right, it is simply the case that in other countries, because they are so dependent on the US, so they need to do business there. So there is the imperative to learn about American practices, and all of that. And even that, at times can get challenging, and I was just on a podcast yesterday evening with some people in Japan, and we were discussing the challenges of global negotiations. So you know, I think circus of culture is something which is it is unconscious, it is there. And it manifests itself in the kind of assumptions that we make. And this is the biggest problem. Because the assumptions that we have are unconscious.

Murray Guest  

What do you think is one of the assumptions that people may have, that subconsciously, they’re not even aware about?

Rajesh Kumar  

So you know, like, I’ll just give you an example. So in this podcast, one person related a story that they when they were in China, for example, so woman just asked her, What is your salary? Something which would never be asked in the US now, so for the person in that particular country, it was a natural thing to ask. It was something that, that you expect, kind of small things and big things that can actually impact interactions. And so other, for example, in America, you know, in general, North America and European countries, you expect, if I asked you a question, you will give me a direct response. Yes, that is expectation. And if you don’t get that response, then you might really wonder what’s going on here? Is the person interested? You know, and again, I had an interesting story yesterday, where an American manager was giving a presentation to some Japanese and so after the presentation, he laid out the price of the product, there was total silence in the room, they did not respond. And this gentleman got so frustrated, he lowered the price. And he did not really understand that the Japanese way of doing things is different. And the fact that they did not respond immediately is not a sign, is not saying that they are unhappy with the price necessarily. So it is the small instances, but you can see assumptions coming into play.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And my own personal experience. So back in the in the 90s, I worked for a global company, and I was part of a number of projects that were across different countries. And I remember that what you’re referring to there sort of occurring a few times where you might ask someone a direct question in a in a project meeting and you might not get the exact answer, or a roundabout sort of answer. And what I think I learned out of some errors and mistakes that I made that that was just a way of communicating, didn’t mean being honest. But that was their way of communicating.

Rajesh Kumar  

Exactly. And these are just some examples, but they’re just illustrative of the kind of problems that might arise. So, in many countries, in Latin America, or in Asia, if you’re doing business, you spend a lot of time socializing, drinking, you don’t get to the talk of the heart of the proposal necessarily very soon. But I guess for people from your culture or in Britain, or in the US, they might get frustrated. Unless they’re not aware.

Murray Guest  

And, and so I can imagine the awareness is a place to start.

Rajesh Kumar  

It is a place to start, but that’s not sufficient.

Murray Guest  

No. So when you work with companies and help them improve this, how do you get the shift from awareness to a change in behavior, which has better cultural appreciation?

Rajesh Kumar  

That’s the issue. Because, you know, I think one of the challenges is that that process is going to take time, and I think it is still, so that could require more time and would require a number of workshops or interventions. But a lot of companies do not have the budget or are not willing to actually spend a lot of a lot of time on that. And the other issue again, I was talking to some people is that many companies will, you know, will only hire people like us. Yeah. And in some sense, that’s actually already too late. Because so one of my messages is that if you’re doing business globally, you have to be prepared, prepared, prepared, preparation, is the key to success.

Murray Guest  

Can I just jump in there, I’m also wondering about a couple of times, you’re sort of referencing those subconscious biases that you might have. Yeah, and I think the more aware of those we can be, so that we aren’t being driven by those without realizing it. 

Rajesh Kumar  

Absolutely. And I think that’s very, very important. And I think personality also comes in, because there are some individuals who have the natural ability, or the talent, or ability to really pick up various skills, and to change their behavior. Whereas others are going to be more rigid, more introverted, and I think they’re going to have a harder time. Because much of the world, a lot of businesses is very relational. Which means you’re spending a lot of time with each other, you know, socializing and getting to know each other.

Murray Guest  

So I’ve worked with a number of leaders that have a role where they’re based somewhere like Singapore, or Australia or in London, and then they’ve got teams that are based around the world. And they’re having regular meetings like we are today over zoom or teams or something else. And what I’m wondering is, how those different cultures are respected, appreciated in those meetings, when they get together.

Rajesh Kumar  

It’s a tough issue. And it’s one, I think, which will vary from company to company, based on what we know how well they are prepared for that. In the sense that a, are they conscious of the potential problems? And are they respectful of the diversity in the group? So one of the challenges there would be, in a zoom, in a virtual meeting, that becomes more difficult, because you don’t have a face to face interaction. And one of the questions, one of the challenges is that for people coming from collectivistic cultures, they may not be so ready to speak up. So how do you get them to participate in the meeting?

Murray Guest  

So what’s, what’s your tip for that?

Rajesh Kumar  

So I think, you know, you have to actually create a certain level of psychological safety. And I think it’s not going to happen in one meeting. But I think it’s going to take a little bit of time. And the managers who are leading it have to be consistent. And you have to use subtle ways of trying to encourage those people to participate. And I think once you’re able to build this level of psychological safety, then I think it will be easier, it will never be quite the same as a lot of American, or in an Australian group. But you know, I think the question is to attain a working level. And I think that’s what the that’s what the goal should be.

Murray Guest  

Do you think, do you think it works if a leader tries to call it out, quite overtly, and help the team articulate what is important for them in the way they communicate? So do you think that would work with some cultures, but other cultures even might find that difficult to do?

Rajesh Kumar  

Yes, some might find it difficult to do unless you already built, unless you’ve had side talks with them beforehand. And then get them on board. So like, in Australia, or North America, you come to a group and, you know, the leader says, whatever it is. And so if those people are not so familiar with the leader, and it’s their first meeting, there will obviously be a certain degree of hesitancy.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. And I think that’s a really good point. I think that socializing, the concept before the meeting, so, again, building psychological safety.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yes. Yes. That’s, that’s, that’s very, very critical. So in these teams, one other issue is the question of power. And so the leader has to be careful that not one group dominates. Because I think if you have, if you have a power imbalance, you have, say, Americans or British dominating that meeting, then the others will just shut up.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, I know. I have seen that, unfortunately. So I understand what you mean there.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yeah.

Murray Guest  

Okay, great. Great. And this is really fascinating. Thank you. And I know, it’s a challenge for a lot of people that work, as I was saying, across different countries, but also, what has been great in Australia, is we are getting more cultures represented here. So yes, more people moving here, first second generation, that are working in businesses. So you’re working with people day in day out from different cultural backgrounds as well. 

Rajesh Kumar  

Yeah, of course. And Asia is, you know Australia’s very multicultural. And I guess you’ve got a lot of immigrants from Hong Kong, China, India, and other parts of the world. 

Murray Guest  

Yes. So when you talk about cultural competence, how, if I was to explain that to the people I work with, how could I articulate that.

Rajesh Kumar  

So it is your ability to actually, you know, understand cultural situations, what’s going on, you know, what is, you know, what you might see overtly may not be what’s happening internally, so the ability to decode what is going on, as opposed to what appears to be going on. And there’s often a difference. So in this case, which an example I gave you, this man had no idea about the situation when he was making this presentation to the Japanese. He could not decode what silence meant. Right? So that’s got to be able to decode situations as to what is actually going on. Because unless you don’t understand that you cannot have a response, or you cannot have an effective response. So that’s one thing. Then I think you also got to have the temperament to be able to build relationships. And and that requires patience, perseverance, and the ability to overcome failures.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, because I was wondering about that gentleman in that situation where he didn’t consider the cultural difference. So when, when that gentleman gets in that situation, or if someone feels they’re in that situation where maybe they have misread the difference.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yes.

Murray Guest  

What do you do then?

Rajesh Kumar  

So I think you don’t want to be in that situation ideally. So you should have been more aware of what the typical Japanese response is going to be. He should have known that silence does not mean that they are disagreeing with your view. He could have given them space, if they are silent, he could also have been silent. Right?

Murray Guest  

In that situation, do you know what happened? What was the final outcome?

Rajesh Kumar  

So he lost out. So they settled at a lower price. Because they figured out that he’s lowering his price. So then it worked to the Japanese advantage. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah gotcha. Yep. And, and I guess, when it comes to major contracts, or major sales, not understanding or preparing, as you’re saying, which is so critical, and not seeing the culture, can have some real impact.

Rajesh Kumar  

Oh it does, and also in relation to the issue of contracts. Meaning of contracts, and how flexible should the contracts be. So in Japan, it’s more, you know, they have a much more of a flexible view of contracts. So the assumption is that if situations change, then you should also be prepared to accommodate. But in North America, Australia, England, it’s a different view, you signed a contract and so that comes with its own obligations and duties. So but even here, you know, I think if the contract is big enough, and the parties are in a long term relationship, they might renegotiate it but that would be more done on a more informal basis.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Okay, gotcha. So sounds like there’s some key differences between culture you’ve identified over the years, and you’ve talked about communication, even that listening and pausing, but even how we might manage contracts. What are some of the other major differences that you’ve noticed between cultures?

Rajesh Kumar  

The issue of time is important. And maybe you’ve experienced it when you were working in those global teams.

Murray Guest  

So I’ve got a thought, but what are you what are you thinking about time in this situation?

Rajesh Kumar  

Some cultures like US, Australia, so we agreed to meet at nine o’clock. 9pm. So in India, time has a much more lasting view. So if you invite someone for dinner at 730, they might, they might not show up to 830 or nine. And so the expectation is that there’s going to be a delay. So so obviously, that can drive people a little, those who are not used to it. Frustrating, yes. And so you need to plan for it. And, and so what that means is, I was giving this advice to someone yesterday, that if you are doing projects in India, and you know, you plan for a couple of weeks of delay, if you expect the projects to be done in, say two weeks, right? Recognize it might. you pad it up, and you recognize it might be three or four weeks. Right. So the issue of time is important, because it impacts everything.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And guess what I was also thinking about there with time is when you communicate to someone, how you will get back to them on a task or some information. And I feel like that there’s some differences there. And I’d love to know what you think. Whether it could be, someone might say I’ll get back to you next Wednesday morning and someone might be I’ll get back to you when I get back to you, like a bit more broad, bit more open.

Rajesh Kumar  

Right? Yes, yes. So I think, you know, you’ve got to just factor that in and the decision making and the other thing is you can try to create your own culture, culture that might actually where you train or educate people the importance of sticking to time or to deadlines. And, and certainly if you’re submitting a bid or you’re trying to complete a project on time, then I think you know, that is critical, because otherwise you may face penalties.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. So what’s popped into my head here is, I love what you’re saying about creating your own culture, because what I’m thinking is, how do you create that culture that’s like a middle ground? Right? It’s not like everyone has to come across to one country’s culture or another, but how do we respect and appreciate both or multiple and find that middle ground?

Rajesh Kumar  

Right. So you know, you work in this particular area in terms of corporate culture. So and you must have said, it’s essentially, it’s essentially creating, you know, what I would say, company wide ethos, the company does various things, which in a very broad level, then you allow for unique local variations.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, okay. Yeah. And I think where I’ve done work with teams and leaders around creating their culture, their way of working, I think my do better is, let’s overtly also talk about the cultural differences as well. 

Rajesh Kumar  

Of course, yes, yes, yes. When you’re doing this, you will obviously talk about this as well. And I think a lot of global companies have their own training development centers, with people from different parts of the world for workshops and training. And so I think that would be the way to actually build that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I think you’re right. And I think that the there’s a word that we’ve been exploring, which I think is so important, is that curiosity, you know, that appreciation.

Rajesh Kumar  

Absolutely, very important. Yes. The only thing I would say is that, for the small to medium sized company, the cultural barriers may be more of a challenge. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah. 

Rajesh Kumar  

Because they don’t have the resources, either the financial and managerial to, to say, provide these training programs, and, and all of this.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, no, that’s a good point. So if there’s a leader or owner from a small business that would like to invest in that cultural competency, where do you think they could start?

Rajesh Kumar  

Oh, there are a lot of training shows, that a lot of training companies in Australia that do this business. There are, you know, and, and, you know, a lot of companies I also provide services in that area. So there’s a lot of service providers.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I think. So maybe searching for that global, sorry, global competency, cultural competency as well. But also, I know that you’ve got a range of articles on your website as well, which is a good place to go have a look.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yeah, right. There’s lots of different. Yes, absolutely. Go ahead.

Murray Guest  

No, no, no, no, please. I’m excited. I want to ask you another question. But Rajesh please continue.

Rajesh Kumar  

I’m just saying cultural differences, so there’s been a lot of discussion about globalization, and what impact it is having. And actually, in a way, paradoxically, and based on what’s going on in the world, I think it just seemed that people are moving apart, rather than coming together. And I think culture is one aspect of it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, of course. What do you think, and for you I’m just wondering, obviously, the last couple of years COVID has been something that’s impacted? What do you think that has, what has been the impact of that? Do you think?

Rajesh Kumar  

I think it’s been quite profound, I think, at different levels, I think, you know, so it has impacted campaigns, approaches to doing business. And I was talking to someone who does a lot of business in Asia, and he was saying because of COVID, they could not travel. And that impacted their ability to do business in those countries. Yeah, because they’re relationship-based cultures. And then you know, and then different countries have had very varying, and very conflicting COVID policies, like China is having their zero COVID strategy. And I think even Australia was pretty stuck.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, we had some very strict staying at home rules for some time. And the other challenge we had was quite different at the same time across across different capital cities in the country. Yeah, yeah.

Rajesh Kumar  

Right. So, so yeah, a lot of countries have had those policies, and it is shifting and changing, but I think we are still not where we ought to be.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Okay. So what, what work are you doing at the moment? Who, what sort of companies are you supporting at the moment? What are you doing with them?

Rajesh Kumar  

Right, so really providing them coaching and training in terms of negotiation, in terms of cross cultural issues. All of that. Yes.

Murray Guest  

Yeah great. And one of the things I’m pondering is, there’s there’s the real I guess, overt glaring differences between some cultures, and then others it’s a bit more subtle, for example, what would be a subtle difference between, say, the English culture and the American culture that you’ve been more aware of?

Rajesh Kumar  

Right, so you know, I think one is their approach towards money. In America everything is about money. And I think Britain, British are less so, or at least you don’t overtly talk about it. Not to that not to that same degree.

Murray Guest  

So the openness or the readiness to discuss money, openly, much more America.

Rajesh Kumar  

Everything about, you know, that that’s, you know, it’s the land of making money, it’s the American dream, it’s the and of course, you know, obviously, this is a country that has had a huge number of billionaires and the environment is friendly towards that. So that’s one thing. Second, of course, you know, I think Britain has a much deeper, longer historical legacy. It’s been a much longer settled society, in America about 200 years. So I think, you know, so the British have a certain view of history. And I think for America it’s the new frontier.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And it’s a bit like, in Australia being, you know, how we need to reconcile with indigenous people is an ongoing thing, it’s something we need to do a lot more work with here in Australia. Again, short history of white people being here, which we’re settled by convicts.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yeah, exactly. And then I think Americans are much more aggressive. Than the British, in a general sense. Because cultural differences are matters of degree, out of time. So you know, so even within Europe, I’ve lived in Denmark, I’ve lived in France, I’ve lived in Finland, you can also notice subtle differences there. So Denark is a very homogeneous country in a way. Just what 5 million people I think. And, and so very closed.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Whereas I mean, America. 300 or so. Yes.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yes, yes. Yes. So. So you know, so I think to even understand culture, you have to understand the history, the, you know, where are the countries coming from. And that’s, I think, also one of the issues in terms of the tensions that we have seen between the West and China, for example. China is a very ancient civilization. Yeah. And, you know, all and so I think, and the point that I’m making is that in international business, you have to look at three important things. One is culture. Never also forget about history or politics. And third, you have to look at the context of the situation. And so which is again, I think that cultural factor because Americans don’t pay attention to the history and, and, and so China is a ancient civilization that’s been around for even much longer than what America has been. So their view is colored by their past historical experiences. Same goes for India as well. Yeah, yeah. So you know, so the legacy of British colonialism, imperialism, still writs large, as well as in China.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I think one of the things you said earlier, again, about preparation, linking the cultural understanding, the history, the context and building that preparation. Yeah.

Rajesh Kumar  

Absolutely. And I think what employers do is, so when you build a relationship, if you can convey to the other person that you know about their culture and are interested in learning about it, it’s an easier way to build rapport.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah.

Rajesh Kumar  

And so I think it’s good from that standpoint. And I think more broadly, it’s also good, because then you can recognize what might be feasible, what might not be feasible?

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And you’re reminding me of the global team was working with last year. And they were meeting online, every month, as a group from a number of different countries. And I think what was great is that realization they came to was the way they were structuring the meeting of being very structured, very focused on our results, what are we delivering on, represent, or reflect or appreciate or respect those different cultures around how we want to run that meeting. And where that was coming from, because some people wanted to spend the first 15 minutes let’s just chat and connect.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yeah, yes, yes, yeah.

Murray Guest  

But this leader with all good intent was saying, right, we just need to update on our KPIs. So again, I think there’s that appreciation and curiosity.

Rajesh Kumar  

Recognize you have to manage diversity. Yeah. And understand that too. That’s why I said to build a common culture. And that comes from an understanding of what the gap is, and then using tools and skills and other facilitation methods to create that, to create that, to create that overall sense of, you know, you know, wellbeing, respect among the group.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great. Now, I’m intrigued, I need to ask you, you’ve mentioned before you’ve lived in quite a number of places around the world. Which ones stand out to you, because you’ve lived in some amazing parts of the world. Like, which one do you wish you could go back and live in again?

Rajesh Kumar  

Oh, well. That’s, that’s, that’s a hard question. You know, I think all countries have their own unique charms and insights. And to tell you my story, so I’ve lived in in the US for 20 plus years, and in Europe for about 15. And so I moved back to the US in 2014, from England. And then actually, I spent six months in New Zealand in 2019. So but I was in India, generally from 2016 to 2020. And I eventually decided to relocate back to the US. So I’ve completed my journey where I started from, not from where I started from, from where I became a little settled to come back to this particular country. Now, this is a very individualized experience. So for me, I think eventually, it is a US.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, wow. Great. And have you lived only in Philadelphia or have you lived in other parts of the country.

Rajesh Kumar  

New York and lived in Boston. I’ve lived in California. I lived in Columbus, Ohio. So I’ve lived in London, Nottingham, Aarhus, Vasa, Paris, Wren and Andover.

Murray Guest  

And now your base is the US. Where would you like to travel to that you haven’t traveled to? 

Rajesh Kumar  

South America. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. South America. That’s right. And some parts of Asia.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I love the traveling that I do with my wife, and we get to really experience the culture. 

Rajesh Kumar  

And have you been to India? 

Murray Guest  

Well, my wife has but I haven’t. And she, she loved it. She spent a couple of weeks there. And she thought it was fantastic. And she’s traveled more than I. So yes, I would. I would love to now that we can travel again after the last few years.

Rajesh Kumar  

Now, it’s now it’s now it’s easy. Yes.

Murray Guest  

I would definitely like to go there. And again, South America like you. And there’s parts of Europe I haven’t been to that I’d love to go and experience.

Rajesh Kumar  

Yes, yes. 

Murray Guest  

I was just gonna say but yeah, when when traveling and meeting people and hearing their stories, and, and trying the local food. I think there’s something just that helps us connect when we do that, and I love doing it. Yeah I’ve been mindful of, being mindful of those assumptions. And, and checking those, and holding those maybe a bit loosely. 

Rajesh Kumar  

Wonderful. That’s that’s, that’s brilliant. You know, so I think cultural travel opens a new vista for you. And many people don’t realize the benefits that it brings. They are conscious of the costs and all of that. Yeah. And many people are very quick. And that’s the other thing I would say. Many people are very quick to make judgments. And, and probably in any situation, but in cross cultural situations, it can be dangerous. Because you make judgments, because you don’t, even when you don’t have full information. Right. So I think the thing is that we work in our mind 90% of the time. And the mind works unconsciously. And the mind likes to control the things. And so too, because control gives you predictability. So what the mind does is makes judgments for you. And the question is, you can’t make judgments when you don’t really know fully what’s going on? And there’s another challenge in cross country situations.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Which I think, definitely what’s jumping out to me through our conversation today is that that curiosity and those assumptions, but also something you sort of, I think is so powerful there about that slowing down. When you rush in, that’s not going to help.

Rajesh Kumar  

So this gentleman, the example I gave you, this person rushed, he lowered his price. He could not wait. And so that also reflects time, is very conscious of time. Yeah, he could not deal with the delay. And, and he used his American model to project onto the Japanese. That because they have not said anything, it means that they, they’re not happy with the price.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great, great. So again, such a valuable example where taking the time to understand those cultural differences.

Rajesh Kumar  

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And again, a cultural factor, because I think Asian cultures spend much more time because of understanding. Not not American or European cultures.

Murray Guest  

Dr. Kumar, thank you so much. for your time today. It’s been wonderful to connect with you. And I’ve realized, as we were talking, in my excitement, I jumped in a few times when you were talking.

Rajesh Kumar  

And that’s fine.

Murray Guest  

Once again, this is my awareness of my, my, you know, slowing down to really appreciate those differences. So it’s been so good to connect with you and learn. And I’m sure lots of people listening today would have got so much value out of this. Really appreciate the knowledge that you have in this area, because as you said, so important for anyone working across different cultures.

Rajesh Kumar  

Right. Thank you, Murray. I think it was a pleasure to be on your show. And thank you for inviting me.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, thank you so much. So to wrap things up, I have two quick questions. First one is if people would like to know more about the work you do, and they want to get in contact with you, where should they reach out?

Rajesh Kumar  

That can go on my LinkedIn profile or my website.

Murray Guest  

Great. And I’ll make sure they’re both linked in the show notes so people can connect with you there. So thank you. And the last question is, what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Rajesh Kumar  

It’s, I would say it is, you know, just breaking out of your old habits. It is, it is being very creative in creative ways.

Murray Guest  

I love that. And I think breaking out of those old habits, and being creative is such a great summary of what we’ve talked about today. And brings that energy. Thank you so much.

Rajesh Kumar  

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Murray.

Murray Guest  

All the best for the rest of 2022.

Rajesh Kumar  

Thank you, same to you, and hope you recover soon. Thank you.

​

Episode 112 – Rupal Patel | CIA to CEO

In this episode I speak with Rupal Patel, an ex-CIA agent turned business owner who helps her audiences leverage the CIA mindset to remake the rules of success.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

So tell me about the book launch yesterday.

Rupal Patel  

It was, well, so I’m a first time author, and have always loved to write have always been a writer in some capacity. And so having my first published book was a huge deal for me just emotionally. And then, you know, getting to celebrate it with total strangers, with people who I’ve known for a long time. And everybody in between was just, it was amazing. And one of the coolest things was, I don’t know for you, Murray, but like in here in the UK, the past few years, obviously have been full on which I’m guessing we’re the same there too. But I found myself connecting with so many people online, and effectively picking up friends online, just through, you know, events that you would attend or random conferences, or whatever it was. And so, it just became so normal. That yesterday when I met some of these people in the flesh for the first time, it was a bit of a like, but I feel like I’ve known you forever, you know, like, it’s, it was just it was a really cool experience. It was it was wonderful, and really buzzy great people, some great conversation, really wonderful for me to be able to celebrate, you know, having a published book. And yeah, I, as I said, before we started recording, I’m still writing.

Murray Guest  

It’s so great that you’ve got the book out. And I mean, from CIA to CEO is such a great title. I love it. I mean, it draws me in straightaway. And so what’s the journey been like to get from, you know, the original concept of the book and writing that to now launching it? What’s that journey been like for you?

Rupal Patel  

It’s been mostly amazing. And a bit of an emotional roller coaster. So the practical side of things has been actually really fast and really straightforward. So the ideas in the book have been in my head, and things I’ve been talking about, things I’m working with, I’ve been working with clients with on for the better part of the past eight years. So that was all sort of percolating in the background. But what took me quite a lot of time and effort was, surprisingly, not the writing itself, it was getting into a structure. Because I had so many ideas, I had so many things that I wanted to share and to contribute. And it just, it felt like, there was so much and I just didn’t know how to put it all in a in a coherent structure. So that’s what took the longest time that that process, I would take took the better part of six months. And then once I got that structure in place, the writing was an absolute breeze, it took not that long, it was me and my flow and my zone of genius, whatever you want to call it. So that part was just wonderful. But yeah, what was the hard part of the journey was the getting the structure right.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I’ve got you. Okay, so I am so honestly, looking forward to reading the book and real transparency, haven’t read it yet. But I’m so, because honestly, it’s a different perspective on the podcast, and I’ve met lots of people that talk about leadership from different angles, from corporate and military. But what you bring in your experience in the CIA is very unique. And I love that you’re bringing that to people that really understand the skills, the tools, and you know, your experiences to help people as leaders in their own lives.

Rupal Patel  

Well, exactly. And you said it perfectly, because it’s not just for people who are leaders who have that title, or who sort of see themselves as leaders, it is quite literally, about literally about leading your life. So being a leader of your life, but also living the life that you choose that you design for yourself that you very consciously make the choices about. And so many of us don’t give ourselves the time to do that, to really think about, you know, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? Is this somebody else’s plan for me? And or is this something I really care about? Am I showing up for my values? It’s all of these big and big questions, some small, but some very big, we don’t really take the time to answer them. And so the purpose of the book is to really force people to take a pause. And you don’t have to be a leader or CEO to do this to take a pause and reflect on your life, on yourself. And then just start making small and incremental tweaks so that you can live more authentically, more powerfully and just with less friction in your life in every way possible.

Murray Guest  

And I feel like the journey that we’ve had as a society for the last couple of years. You mentioned before about what COVID has been like in the UK, Australia, obviously very, very similar. And I think that authenticity, that getting back to who you are has just rang true and true as something that people really need right now. How have you been through COVID and lock downs and all that? What’s, what’s life been like for you?

Rupal Patel  

It was full on. So I was pregnant with my second child. Basically, that whole first year of lockdown. So early 2020, and we had a toddler, a young toddler at home. So it was exhausting in every way possible. For you know, for lots of reasons, because of what was happening in the economy, in the world, our business was just going through a lot of challenges. So it was mentally taxing, emotionally taxing, plus, having a very active, very sociable three year old on our hands, trying to keep her entertained and educated. And thank God for Bluey. Right, and thank God for telly you because to be honest, there were long stretches of time where we would just plant her in front of the telly, because we had to work we didn’t have the luxury of being furloughed, or you know, all of those things. So it was really tough. And there were some really, really just dark times and times where guilt would overwhelm me, I would feel guilty that, you know, I wasn’t doing enough for my daughter, I would feel guilty that I wasn’t doing enough for business, I would you know, all of this stuff just compounded and not having the outlet, not having the social network, not having, you know, everything we’ve that we all went through, it was just really tough. It was really tough. And thankfully, in hindsight, it felt like it went very quickly. But in the moment, it was like, time just was it was like wading through molasses, you know.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha. I think on my own personal reflection, I think about the community element, the personal connection. And that really being challenging for me, I’m I’m very much a people person, I love my, you know, my close friends, and just the, I guess a lack of opportunity or choice to connect with people being taken away, I found that challenging at times.

Rupal Patel  

Yes. And for me, I’m also I’m very similar to you and I also the physical side of things like not hugging people, but not even, one not seeing them. But not just having that just that like sort of that loving touch, you know, with a friend or even a family member, and just seeing my husband and daughter for large stretches of time. It’s just too much. There’s no family in the world that needs to spend that much time together, no matter how much you love each other. You know, and I say this slightly flippantly, but at no point in human history, has that ever been the case for families see nobody other than themselves, you know. And so that was tough. It was just really rough.

Murray Guest  

I totally agree. And, and I talked to some of my clients and leaders I work with around that third space. So you have your workspace, your home space, and that third space where it might be going for a walk, going to the gym, or a ride or reading a book in the park doesn’t matter. But that third space is so important for that health of those relationships. And that’s been so hard.

Rupal Patel  

Yes, it really has, there were times where I would just ask my husband, sometimes not so kindly, basically leave the house and take our daughter with him. So I could get some of that third space for me and I and I, you know, again, without being too dark and glum about it, there were some difficult conversations. But I think that were really helpful in that time. Because, like you said that protecting that third space is so essential. And I am an incredibly high energy extroverted person, but I need to recharge by being alone and not having distractions, not having anyone physically around me. And so recognising that and then having that tough conversation of like, basically, can you get the hell out of my face for a little bit? It was it was important to do it. And now you know, my husband and I have a better understanding of just the type of space and the amount of space and the quality of space that we both need. And I don’t know if that would have that conversation would have ever happened, had it not been forced on us to have that conversation.

Murray Guest  

That’s a great point that I’d like to think that COVID generated some opportunities for people to have some really important conversations about what’s important to me, what’s important to you, so that people can understand that at a deeper level. And you sound like my wife because Tammy had said to me a few times she said I don’t know what that is but go for a bike ride. Get out on your bike, you need to get out.

Rupal Patel  

Yes, exactly. Exactly. The thing that saved our marriage was my husband going for midnight bike rides for long stretches because that was his third space and yeah, like you said it’s it’s with all challenge comes opportunity and thankfully once we made our peace with the challenges and sort of started to get them a bit under control. We were, we created a bit more space to have those conversations and to take those opportunities.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, fantastic. And how are the how the children going now?

Rupal Patel  

They’re amazing. I am very lucky. So it was tough on my, my toddler because she, you know, she, for a long time would get really scared to see strangers and we’d be out in a park. And she’d see people coming in, she’d freeze, and she’d run back to me, you know. And so, as a very naturally outgoing, sort of sociable girl, it was hard to see that and I think it did leave a bit of a mark that I think though thankfully, she’s, you know, children are so resilient. And she was just old enough where we could sort of explain to her what was going on. So she’s now you know, she’s absolutely flourishing. And then the baby that we have during COVID is, is now 19 months old. She, yeah. And she is, she’s just a riot. She’s super high energy. She sort of was born into a world where she couldn’t see half of people’s faces for large stretches of her life. But now she can, she’s just rolling with it. So thankfully, both of my girls were old enough or too young to have really been hit by it on a very deep level, I think. But yeah, they’re both they’re both fantastic. And thank God for nurseries and schools. Now that they have that structure back in place, I think it makes all the difference in the world.

Murray Guest  

Totally agree. Totally agree. So, so great to hear. I have to be really honest. So I’ve just put myself in your husband’s shoes with three girls in the house. I wonder how he’s going.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, he’s he’s a very patient man. He’s very, I’m very lucky with my my immediate family and extended family. But he’s, he’s the perfect counterbalance to me I’m very high energy and very, very, yeah, just very high energy, where it seems just he’s got this cool British setting, mostly unflappable, he is just the coolest cucumber, but the second you tip him over the head, you better give him a wide berth, because you do not want to be there when he explodes. So he’s got that fire. But most of the time, he’s just even tempered, which makes a huge difference. Having three very strong willed girls and women in his life, I think he needs to be that kind of person.

Murray Guest  

Sounds like a good man. That’s for sure. Yeah. So I’d like to know a bit more about your transition from CIA, which is obviously something we could talk about, and I’d love to. Part of me is like, I’d love to know. And part of me is like, oh, there’s probably parts you can’t talk about.

Rupal Patel  

Of course, well you can ask, and I won’t tell you what I can’t tell you.

Murray Guest  

But tell me about your life in the CIA. What was that like?

Rupal Patel  

It was phenomenal. It was one of those, those, that period of my life where quite literally, I would wake up at five or six, whatever time it was in the morning, and be genuinely excited to get to work. It was one of the most formative and just life enhancing experiences of my life. And I got to work with brilliant people, like just some really, incredibly big brained and very, yeah, just brilliant people, I got to do really exciting work that was meaningful to me, because I have by sort of my university and sort of educational training, study politics and foreign policy. And so it was fantastic for me to actually find a practical use for that very sort of intangible skill. I love to learn languages, I love to live in different countries and really understand how cultures operate and, and really just analyse the world and think about it and be able to, yeah, just critically assess what’s going on. And so it was a dream job in every way possible. Plus, I got to do some really cool training in like weapons and tactical driving and you know, all this kind of stuff, that as a normal human being, you don’t really know how to treat a sucking chest wound, you know, your normal onboarding process at most jobs. So it was fantastic. And I think for me, fundamentally, what made it so powerful and such a compelling sort of part of my life was the sense of mission, the sense of common purpose, the sense of doing work that mattered. And yes, of course, as with any career, there were ups and downs, especially in a very politicised organisation, not internally politicised, but externally, where everybody had a view of what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. And you can’t always defend yourself because most of what you do is classified and so you just sort of have to take the criticism on the chin and acknowledge that well, they are operating from what they think is the full picture but they don’t really know. And surprising or maybe unsurprisingly, that’s been a really important lesson that I brought with me into my career as a as a CEO and in the work that I do with my clients is this understanding that no matter how smart we are, how capable, how well trained, there’s always a part of the picture that we just don’t have. So it’s not to, to sort of throw our hands up in despair and, you know, sort of paralyse us, it’s more to acknowledge that we don’t know everything, we don’t necessarily have all the answers, and specifically for leaders who feel like they have to be the one with the solution and with the answer, it’s like having the humility to acknowledge that actually, well, maybe you don’t have the full picture. And because that is true, allow others to contribute to the process, the solution, that whatever it is, and recognise that all of the best ideas don’t necessarily come from you. And it’s having that humility to learn.

Murray Guest  

How does, how do you think a leader takes their ego and parks that? And has that curiosity? Because that’s a challenge I do see. 

Rupal Patel  

I think so much of it is, we’ve created this social expectation of leaders as and we put a lot of demands on them, you know, they’re the ones who are the visible, sort of whipping boys when things go wrong. And they’re also the ones who don’t really get the credit when things go, right. And so, I think fundamentally, as a society, one we have work to do in how the sort of the stereotypes we create around what we expected our leaders and what we demand of them. But then secondly, as leaders themselves, I think, look, not all leaders are, you know, sort of, Oh, it’s my way or the highway, but the ones who are I think benefit from, you know, a bit of a, I guess, again, from having like, some organisational safety, you know, whether it’s from the board or from their team or whatever, to take risks to acknowledge when they don’t know the answer is to say, I don’t know, but then also to start practising that very difficult thing of allowing people to challenge you and inviting those discussions and not surrounding yourself with sycophants and yes men and yes women, but inviting debate and discussion. And, of course, as the leader, you have the final say, it’s not to say that other people make the decisions for you, but to at least allow the input and to create a culture in your organisation of conversations going both up and down, is really important. I think sometimes it might have to be enforced, if that’s not your natural leadership style. But I do think there’s a growing understanding and a growing awareness amongst leaders that they do have to engage with others just more more often and more substantively because especially of everything that’s happened in the past few years, and we’ve proven that some of the things that we thought were just golden truths about how people work and what they need, and all this stuff have been disproven, right, you know, and so, the shakeup of the past few years, I think, is inviting and allowing a lot of really important conversations to start. So I think that’s one way. And then secondly, for leaders, I think, too many leaders and a lot of just high achievers in general, really, really conflates their identity and their sense of self with their title and their position. And doing the work to divorce that to say, Okay, well, my value as a human being is not only because I’m the CEO, or I’m the Managing Director, or whatever, and starting to play around with that concept, even even if just mentally in your own head, can be really healthy. Because all of a sudden, a challenge or someone else having an idea or bringing a solution to the table that didn’t come from you isn’t a threat to that identity. It’s just another idea, another solution, another voice, as opposed to it undermining who you are as a fundamental human being. And it’s so hard because so many people. And you know, I put my hands up and say, I used to do this as well. It’s like, I don’t know who I am if I don’t have a company behind me or a title behind me. And it takes a lot of work to, to separate your sense of self from what you do.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I had a conversation with a leader earlier this week around a similar challenge where there was some changes around how they’re organising their work. And there was that sense of, Well, if I get this person to do that part of my job, well, then who am I? What’s my identity? Where do I add value? And it was like working through that. Because there was like that whole challenge of well, that’s who I am by based on the work that I do. Yeah, the bit that you’re saying without saying it, which I love is this bit around how do we as leaders slow down and have these conversations and explore it? Without just as you saying, I’ve got enough data, let’s go, I’ve got enough data. Let’s go. Actually, let’s slow down and explore a bit more.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly. And also, you know, just taking the time to explore internally what’s going on because again, like you said, with data, we are bombarded with data as leaders, as just normal human beings living our day to day existence. And one of the things that I found to be so powerful and that I sort of brought from the CIA into my work now with other leaders, is this idea of tactical ignorance. So instead of just swimming and drowning in all of the well, data masses information coming at us, it’s really important to start developing that skill of knowing what is noise, and knowing what is the signal, and then choosing to ignore all of the noise. 

Murray Guest  

How do we separate the noise from the signal? How do I do that?

Rupal Patel  

Well, I think fundamentally, it comes down to knowing what is the end goal, right? So for example, you know, I’ll give you a very personal example, when I was operating in the field, one of my jobs was to brief a four star general who was the commanding general of US and international forces in an active war zone. And I’m a civilian 20-something woman going to brief this, you know, highly decorated four star general in his sort of home turf, right? We’re in an active war zone. He knows what he’s doing. Yeah. So there’s so much noise around that, right? He’s so important. He’s a four star general, I’m just a lowly civilian, and I’m only 20 years old, well not 20, I was in my 20s. You know, all of that stuff around seniority and age and experience, etc. That could have, that is all just noise, right? That was part of the bigger picture. But it was creating all of this noise in my head. But the signal, what was important that I needed to focus on and ignore all of that other stuff was, well, what is my job? My job is to go in and brief him on our most recent analysis of what’s happening in the war effort and answer his questions as best I can. So my job was to focus on that signal, to focus on that job, to focus on the outcome, the mission at hand, and ignore, very consciously ignore all of that other noise, all of that other stuff about hierarchy, and seniority, and who’s who, and all that kind of stuff. And everybody in every situation, and then again, especially over time, you you start to develop a feeling for it, right? You want you can sort of intuitively understand well, actually, if I get to the crux of the issue, this is what’s important. So all of that other stuff. For a lot of leaders, you know, a lot of leaders do sort of suffer from what I call comparisonitis, right? They’re looking at other companies, they’re looking at other leaders that you know, the growth trajectories of this business, that’s all noise, that is a total distraction from your mission, your signal, which is to focus on your company, your growth, your trajectory, and leave all of that other stuff to other people to worry about.

Murray Guest  

So to help you park the noise to sort of like, I guess, acknowledge it, and then park that. Did you go through a process mentally? Or did you write it down? Like what works for you in the field?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, so a couple of things is, it takes work. So it’s not something that is like, Okay, well, you switch it on, or you switch it off. I mean, it takes constant attention in any arena. But for me, one of the things that I that really helped was to constantly ask myself that question, well, what is the job? What is the job? What is my role? What am I bringing to this table? What is my value? What? Because, again, so many of us compare ourselves to the people we’re speaking to, and in our companies, oh, this person so important, that person has this title, they have this experience. Again, all noise. What is your job? What is the value you are bringing in? Constantly asking yourself that question, is a really great way to just break that pattern of like spinning ourselves up into a tizzy around all of that other stuff.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And as humans, we’re fantastic at creating stories and meaning, aren’t we?

Rupal Patel  

Yes. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. And I think, you know, it’s, I’m glad you said that word meaning, because one of the things I fundamentally believe is that we can make things mean as much or as little as we want to. And that is a choice. And it sounds really annoying. And really, maybe I don’t know, overly Zen or woowoo, or whatever. But it is genuinely a choice to say, for example, when you fail at something, you can choose to say, Oh, my God, I’m destined to fail at this. And I should just throw in the towel and never try this again. Or you could choose to view it as you know what everybody fails sometimes. A failure is just a part of the process towards success. And sometimes you fail 10 times and then you get the success. Sometimes you have to fail 100 times, but knowing that it is just a part of the process totally changes the meaning of that failure. So it’s not about you. It’s not about you being fundamentally flawed in any way. It’s, oh, actually, no, this is just a part of the process. So I’m going to choose to take that meaning and it’s not about being naive or about being like burying your head in the sand and ignoring, you know, responsibility or anything like that. It’s just about choosing a different meaning. And that is, you know, informed and objective as opposed to this, like, Oh, I’m just doomed to failure and I throw it all in now.

Murray Guest  

Which I think links to something that you do help your clients with around having a growth mindset. Around where’s the opportunities to learn, to grow. Because I think where the, what’s really clear I’m getting here is it’s not about ignoring it. It’s actually that did happen, how do I learn from that and apply that in whatever is coming up next for me in my life?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah. And that’s not easy to do, right? Because it takes a lot of, again, self reflection. And that is one of the hardest things to do is to look inward and to without blame, or without sort of talking yourself down or anything like that, to just own your choices, take responsibility for those choices. And then with that understanding that, hey, I had some part to play in this, what can I do about it, right, because we can’t change the world, we can’t change the economy, we can’t, well, we can change our government through election, we’re sort of stuck with them for a few years in between, you know, there’s so many things we can actively change. So fundamentally, it comes back again, to just controlling what you can control and stop admiring the problem, stop obsessing over everything that’s going wrong. And again, vent, get it out of your system, you know, crawl under the covers and sob about it if you need to. I mean, I’ve been there where I’m like, I just need to get the tears and the snot out, and then I’m gonna wipe my face up and keep on going. But it is we do have those choices. And we are lucky, you and I, and many of your listeners, to live in societies where we have so many choices. And they’re not, we’re not all gifted with the same quality or quantity or any of that. But we have so much more at our disposal than billions of other people. So just make better choices for where you want to go as opposed to staying stuck with where you’re at.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah. And that that leads back to the self leadership you mentioned a little while ago about that. you are a leader of your life. And, and yeah, we make choices. Sometimes those choices aren’t the best. But let’s learn from those for the next choice we’re going to make.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly, and one of the things that I started doing that was really helpful to make that process of learning very concrete, as opposed to just like, oh, yeah, I’ll learn from it and I won’t make the mistake next time. Because we are, human beings are notoriously bad at remembering things accurately. You know, we have all of these biases.

Murray Guest  

We’re very good at repeating the same mistake as well. 

Rupal Patel  

Yes exactly. And so again, a way to just encapsulate the learning in a very tangible way, every year for the past, I want to say at least six or seven years, I have sat down and looked back over the entire year, and literally sat with my diary with, you know, sort of, where have I gone? Who have I met? What did I do? Where did I travel, all this stuff, what kind of work was I doing, and just looked at everything, and then encapsulated using those things as triggers for what I did, and how things went, etc. And then at least coming up with 10, just big lessons learnt that year, you know, this is what I learned this year, these were the mistakes, this is some of the things that I shouldn’t repeat, these are some of the things that went really well and why they went really well. And just trying to I mean, it’s, it’s usually between 10 and 15. But 10 is a good number to aspire to. And then what I take it one step further or two steps further one, I share it with other people so that hopefully, others can learn from my mistakes and not make the same themselves. And then secondly, for myself, is as I’m planning the year ahead, I look back and I say okay, well, these were the things that went wrong, why? What can I do? What can I build into my business? What can I build into my life, to make it less likely that I’ll repeat those mistakes, because until you go through a process of some sort, where you’re making all of the memories and the ideas and whatever else concrete, you will just repeat it again and again and again, in a different form. So we have to stop. And for me, I find putting things down and making them very concrete is a way to break that pattern and to actually capture the year and capsulate it into something valuable and usable. And then actually use those lessons and build it into your life somehow.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, fantastic. I, I think in the busyness of life, I think it’s easy to not do it. And what I hear from you and I totally, totally agree with you, is the power of actually slowing down and that reflection and saying well, what can I take from that? What’s working, what’s not? And then take that forward. I love that. My thought here is that, so there’s a lot of leaders that listen to the podcast and as a leader of a business, how do I create that culture, that that culture where people feel it’s okay to fail? And when we do, we learn from that intelligently to move forward? Like if, as a leader how do I do that? Like what’s what’s a tip that you know, that really helps a leader create that culture?

Rupal Patel  

I think fundamentally, it’s about being the example yourself. So first and foremost, for example, taking that time out to reflect and then letting you your team know about it, you know, saying, Look, maybe you send out an email, or you talk about it in an all hands or whatever way you communicate it to your team. But you know, I don’t know, every Thursday from 10am to 1130, I’m going to be, you know, having my quiet time, whatever you want to call it, where I’m just going to sit and reflect and, you know, think about some of the challenges, maybe come up with solution, whatever it is, that’s my thinking time, and then invite if you know it’s appropriate, and for your team, and the rest of your organisation to do the same. And to make it a structured thing, and not people are going off and having coffee breaks or having, you know, sort of smoke breaks or whatever people do. But you know, this is built into part of your, like, your job role. And, you know, this is a thing you do every week, you can institutionalise it if you want to in some very formal way that, you know, everybody’s got to do this 90 min, or whatever you want to do it. So first lead by example. And then, you know, again, put it in into the sort of the bones of your business in whatever way is realistic. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

I like that, because it’s, it shifts it from it, it’s a it’s a, I’ll get round to it some time, to actually just part of the way we operate.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly. And it’s because you know, if you’re starting your own company, you can set the tone of the culture from the beginning. And that’s sort of a lot easier to do it from the beginning, if you’re already operating a running ship, so where you can still do that, I think so many people think that oh, well, this is how it’s always been done, I don’t want to shake the, rock the boat or whatever it is, and but as a leader, the whole reason you’ve been brought in is to lead the company and to leave your mark on it in some way. And if you think it’s going to change and improve the organisation, and the culture, and, you know, all of the other things that are important, all of the metrics that are you care about, then by all means, of course, you can institutionalise it. That’s why you’re getting paid the big bucks. You know, that’s why you’ve got the title and, and the office and all that stuff. So yeah, absolutely make those changes. And it can even be in things like, I hate this whole idea of face time in office cultures. I think it’s such and in certain industries and finance and, and consulting and a lot of, you know, sort of those really intense environments. It’s like, well, you can’t leave before the boss leaves, it’ll be sort of a blot on your on your ledger book kind of thing. And everybody knows it’s BS, you know, and everybody finds a way to squander the time, I don’t know, scrolling on social media, taking tonnes of breaks, like human beings are infinitely creative when it comes to that kind of thing. And we shouldn’t be penalising our team for being good at what they do, and being able to finish their job in four hours or six hours, and then force them to waste another, you know, five to six hours of their lives by just sitting in the office. Like it’s a huge waste of everybody’s time and effort and energy. So if you’ve if you recognise as a leader that face time cultures are nonsense than again, that’s something you can change in your business, you can choose to say, hey, look, I’ve been in the office for six hours, I got my day’s work done, I’m peacing out now. You know, you can do that. And you can say it in a way that’s a little bit more appropriate for your work environment. But you can set the tone or at least, if you can’t do that yourself, invite others to do it, and then maybe force yourself to do it every so often. So you are walking the talk, and it’s not just oh, well, he’s telling us to do it. But if we actually do it, then we’re going to be penalised for it in some way. And then you have to make sure that people aren’t penalised for it, that it is going down the whole organisation that there isn’t a middle manager somewhere being like, Oh, well, this person didn’t leave until, you know, six o’clock and this person left at two. And, you know, you got to make sure that it’s safe to do these things, and that there isn’t any blowback. But again, as the leader, you have the the ability to do that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And then to set the culture. The thing, the thing again, that links I think beautifully back here is through COVID what I’ve seen with the people I work with, is this reset around what flexibility means for different people. And working from home to hybrid working, now working back in the office. And if I finish, and I need to go pick up my children, or I want to go to the gym, or I just need to go and run a few errands. That’s okay. And I need that now. And I think good companies, great companies are recognising that flexibility is very important to people as we move forward.

Rupal Patel  

For sure. And I think companies, you know, if you’ve hired well, if you’ve done your due diligence, and you’ve chosen good people, then most people, not all, you know, I’m not gonna lie, there will be some people who sort of take advantage of this system. But that’s going to be true in every environment, in every culture. But most people, if you’ve hired well and chosen well and incentivize them in the right way, and sort of again, understand them and what makes them tick, then yes, they will not abuse your trust, they will be thankful for the fact that you’ve you’ve allowed them to flex their brains and contribute to something that they care about in their careers in their professional lives, but then also have a life outside of work because what I have gotten so fed up with is this conversation we’ve been having for decades now about work life balance. And what I think is so annoying about that whole discourse is it creates a false dichotomy between work and life. And it’s that there is no separation, there’s never been a separation, people have been faking it and have been, you know, have been doing all sorts of damage to their health or to their family lives, or whatever, to try to create those separations. But it’s not real, right? So if you can create an environment where you trust people, you empower them, you incentivize them, and then let them just get on with things, a lot of people will not let you down. Some will, but that’s going to be true, even if you force them to show up into the office from like, I don’t know, six to six every day. So, you know, it’s understanding the trade offs and making these choices very consciously. And then yes, of course, creating the accountability mechanisms and all that other stuff in place. So you don’t get too much sort of abuse. But I think, again, people acknowledge that it’s important to be seen and treated as people and as humans, and not just machines and robots. So there’s, there’s still so much work that we can do. But I think again, fundamentally, it comes down to people will appreciate you treating them as adults.

Murray Guest  

Oh, yeah. 100% so agree with you. And I feel like this, I assume, Rupal that you’ve seen this thought about the great resignation. For me, it’s actually the great realignment. People are saying, Do I feel aligned with this company, this way of working, this culture? If I don’t, I’m going to go elsewhere. Because there’s a culture which I’m more connected with, a leader I’m more connected with.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, yeah. And, and that’s great to see that there are people who are making that choice. What’s really frustrating for me, and I don’t know if this is the same in Australia, what’s been happening. And this has been a problem that then COVID just exacerbated, is there are droves of women who are leaving the workforce, not because they’re unaligned or because they’re they anything else, but they cannot afford childcare. And in most societies, even to the 21st century, women are the primary caregivers. And a lot of women in the UK and in the US in particular, have to make that choice of well, I literally cannot afford to put my child in childcare. So I will have to quit my job so that I can be the one taking care of them. And that is a huge problem that COVID just really brought to light and you know, it started out because women were trying to do it all, we’re trying to work from home and raise kids and be homeschooling their children and all this stuff. And I’m not saying men weren’t helping or chipping in, but it was predominantly the weight was being put on women. So in addition to having to work, and you know a normal jobs of during the course of the day while worrying about family, try not to get COVID, homeschooling your child, feeding them endless snacks, there was all of this stuff. And so that was creating another sort of bubbling up problem of its own. And then when everybody sort of, and under this, you know, what’s been going on for decades is this problem of like childcare just not being affordable. And so women are making this really horrible choice of choosing, having to choose their family over themselves in a lot of ways. And it’s such a, I find it society has so much work to do on this front. And I feel fundamentally that governments and companies have a lot to do a lot of work to do in supporting women who have young families if they are the primary caregiver to provide affordable childcare, because it’s just stupid that 50% of the population has more often than not, has to make that trade off and has to make that choice. And it’s bad for business. It’s bad for the economy. It’s bad for individual humans. And it’s bad for families, you know, and it puts women at financial risk for the long term. And so this is my sort of rallying cry, I guess, for the organisations and the leaders who do listen to your podcasts. It’s to start having those tough conversations, start engaging with your women and talking to them about well, you know, what can we do? And it’s, it is mostly a problem for women. Yes, there are men who are primary caregivers or whatever. But fundamentally, again, every society that I know of it is the women who take the backseat, have have their careers take the backseat when they start a family. And that shouldn’t be a penalty that you pay for allowing the human race to move on, to keep going on and grow. So it’s, yeah, there’s a lot of work to be done on that front.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I know you shared something recently on LinkedIn about this. I saw an article that and of course, it’s and I’ve, I’ve heard, and I’ve experienced, but of course, I’m not a woman. But people talk about they look forward to the day when their children can go to school, because of the costs with schooling versus childcare and what that means, and it shouldn’t have to live like that where we’re all sort of wishing out that time to get to that and shifting it to have a place where we can I don’t know, I don’t know the answer, that’s for sure. But I know we need a better balance of how can we support that diversity in the workplace because women bring so much perspective and insight and creativity in the workplace.

Rupal Patel  

They bring the same that men bring, right? Like, it’s, again, it’s, I think it’s just a fundamental issue around equality and, and what I find really strange is that it’s a problem at all, you know, because if you’re a numbers person, and a lot of companies sort of live and die by the numbers, research, study, after study after study after study has shown that companies that have women in leadership positions, companies that make you know, are flexible, and family friendly, and all these things that again, disproportionately help women, all of this stuff is good for the bottom line, they’re better, they’re stronger companies, they’re more financially successful, female led startups are financially more successful, and yet, they get just 1% of VC funding, like all of the research shows why it’s a good idea for companies and governments to put money behind women, and supporting women staying in the workforce. Why it’s not happening is beyond me. Because if it was just about the money, there’s all the data in the world to support that it makes financial sense, as well as just good common sense, right? Because 50% of the population is a massive part of the population. And all of the untapped talent is probably costing the economy billions, if you want to just reduce it to, you know, financial, the financial aspects. So, again, I don’t know why it’s not happening,

Murray Guest  

I was gonna say, you might be able to, quote the source of this one. But I did hear a little while ago that countries that were led by women did better through COVID.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, I remember seeing a lot of articles about that. And I don’t know what the studies were or what the how they defined did better like, and you know, what were the trade offs? I don’t know any of that stuff. So, you know, I sort of shy away from making sweeping judgments about oh, women are better at this or men. Because I think it just again, it creates too much of a division between men do this, and women do this and know what, like, women should be in charge of everything. It’s not binary. It’s not either it’s all men or it’s all women, it’s, it should just be people. And women, because of our biology, we are, of course, the ones who are having kids and then allowing the human race to, you know, keep continuing on. But we shouldn’t have to then pay the cost of that with our careers and with our sense of financial independence, personal and intellectual fulfilment. And again, from a company perspective, there is a huge pool of untapped, highly qualified, highly trained, you know, degreed up the wazoo women, who for this very stupid reason of childcare, are just sat at home, literally, like their brains I won’t say atrophying, but their brains just sat there, not contributing in the ways that they could be. So again, from a very just, if you want to be very instrumentalist about it, like, there’s a huge source of talent, of ideas, of innovation, all of the stuff that you just need to start tapping into and being creative about how you tap into it. 

Murray Guest  

If you’ve got one sort of suggestion for a leader or CEO of companies around this to make an impact around this challenge, what would it be?

Rupal Patel  

I would say start with subsidising childcare, if you can’t provide it on site, some companies obviously are going to be too small to be able to provide on site. But and I don’t mean just like a few quid here or a few dollars or whatever here or there, like properly subsidise it and do the maths based on you know, whatever salary structure you’ve got in place. So that is not, oh, well, okay, I’m just going to be making a few extra dollars here or there. And it’s okay. But it actually makes sense for women to go back to work and they will still have, you know, the income and all that kind of stuff. It’s it’s doable. I think it takes some creative thinking and some creative leadership. But that’s an easy place to start, at least start doing the numbers, you know, have your accountant or your your financial team start running the numbers, what would it cost? And then what would you get? You know, there is always yes, there’s going to be a bit of a trade off. And you have to look at the cost and the benefit. But I think the benefits side of things will far outweigh both the numbers as well as in just being a company that stands for something, the reputational benefit, all that kind of stuff that comes from being a bit more innovative on this. And at the end of the day, that’s just make sense. Like, again, I say I’ve reduced it to things to the very simplest, I think this is a stupid problem to have in the 21st century in the democracies in which we’re living in.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Thank you. I love that this conversation has brought this out because it’s such, so powerful to hear your passion and as you said, there’s some real things that could be done to change it and make it much better. I do have a question that sort of builds off this is a little bit. And so I, assumptions and my checking my assumption here, that the CIA is male dominated. 

Rupal Patel  

Yeah. Yeah. 

Murray Guest  

And a lot of women that I work with and clients that I have, they often are in male dominated workplaces. How does, I mean, it’s a big, big question, but how does a woman manage that? What are your thoughts? How do they find their voice? And that courage that confidence in those male dominated workforces?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, gosh, yeah, this is a massive one. So a couple of things. So I’ll speak from my own experience. And then some of the work I’ve done with the women that I work with, I think, first and foremost, it’s acknowledging that you deserve to be in that room. Because so often, we look around and we see, oh, God, I’m the only woman like I can’t screw up here, or they’re holding me to a higher standard, or some people might be thinking, Oh, she’s only here because she’s a woman. So that again, there’s all of that noise in the background, right? So it’s about ignoring that noise. Because you know, no one gave you that job, no one invited you into that board or to that room out of pity, you are there for a reason. And now own the fact that you are in that room, it doesn’t matter, you know, what room who they are, what they’ve done, it’s it’s not about them, it’s about you. Because, again, you might have seen this from yours, your work Murray is, I’ve been a lot around a lot of high achievers of all stripes, you know, billionaires and people who are titans of industry and all this kind of stuff. And not all of them deserve to be in that room, you know, not all of them got there on merit. And I think my view, and I believe this very strongly is we do not live in a meritocracy, I wish that we did, I wish that the smartest or the best or the whatever, always won. But we all know, for example, from recent US elections, for example, that the best person for the role doesn’t always get it, right. It doesn’t mean we have to like it. But that is just what happens. Sometimes people get their job or their title or the position because who they are, their family, the money they had, the country club that they belong to, all of these other things, right. So we don’t know the full story behind how anyone got to where they are. So let’s just take a slightly lighter view of like, well, I belong here, too. I know my story, I know what I did to work here, to get here, to earn my place here. So just own it. There’s no tangible thing you can do necessarily, but it is a mental exercise of just reminding yourself that you do belong there. Because that helps quiet a lot of the like the confidence issues that come from feeling like oh, God, like these people are this and they’ve done that, well. You don’t know how they got there. You don’t know why they’re there, you know, and again, we can all name dozens of examples of really shitty people who got to the top of things, you know, and so you deserve it.

Murray Guest  

I really don’t like the term fake it till you make it.  

Rupal Patel  

No, I hate that so much. Yeah. 

Murray Guest  

And whereas what I’m hearing from you is, don’t fake it, you own it, you deserve to be there. And you own that space. You own that position, you own that, your place in the room.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly, exactly. The whole fake it till you make the thing. I think it’s just I find it again, really irritating with work life balance become this, this trope that everyone started using. And it’s just it’s so unhelpful because also a lot of people just feel really inauthentic doing that, right? Yeah. And I don’t want you to, as a, for example, a woman to go in. I mean, I didn’t, I couldn’t go and be like, Look at me, I’m so big, and brawny and alpha, and I’m tough guy, like, no one’s gonna believe that. Like, it’s just, I could try to fake it until I died. And it would not work. I couldn’t ever make it like that, right. But there are other things you can do. So owning your place in the room. And again, that’s an internal exercise, but then also start practising taking up actual space. So a lot of women shrink into themselves or stand against the wall or won’t take a seat at the table, or whatever it is. And so, practice, if you’re going to show up actually showing up, you know, like I said, stand tall, use your voice contribute something, yes, if you’re really nervous, and it’s something that’s outside of your comfort zone, you’ll have to practice and you might start, your heart might start racing when you do it and you know, whatever it is, but it gets easier with practice else. All of the stuff gets easier with practice and your presence and how you feel in yourself will you know you can you can work on that you can project different things in different ways. Even just talking about it. I’ve started sitting taller, you know, and, and it’s little things like that. And then it’s also very practical things of really understanding what do you bring, like what is, doing that self reflection doing that analysis of who you are as a leader as a contributor, and then recognising that again, it’s okay if it doesn’t conform to the archetype of being really gregarious or outgoing or, you know, hard nosed or whatever it is that you’re telling yourself, and then practice, again practice bringing that value to light. So if you are, for example, a bit more introverted, and are the type of person who does sort of stay very quiet in group settings or meetings or whatever it is, just take a baby step, you know, ask a question to begin with, you don’t have to be leading the meeting. But start practising, actually using your voice. And again, all of these things become easier with time and with practice. And none of this is going to overnight revolutionise your career and how you feel but all of these baby steps compound, and as the confidence builds, as you get more comfortable using your voice, it just builds on itself, and it can really, really help you feel more like the leader you already are.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. I feel like I’d love to add one, because this is something that I’ve seen sometimes with some of the ladies and sorry women I’ve worked with, and that is around setting boundaries, being clear on your own personal boundaries, I think is super important. And then for males as well, but for women, I think that’s really important.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, yeah. And it’s about boundaries, but also one of the things that I saw, so yes, have boundaries and understand, like, Look, I’m not gonna respond to emails after 7pm, or whatever it is, you know, can be something very tangible like that. Or it’s like, no, I’m just not going to come to this meeting because it’s a waste of time. You know, that kind of stuff. That’s all very, very important. But I also think, and again, this is not going to be appropriate in all work settings, but to take a slightly lighter approach to things. So instead of everything being this big way thing again, choosing what things mean, right? So instead of feeling like, oh, they said that to me, because I’m a woman. Yeah, maybe they did. Oh, maybe they didn’t. I don’t know. Obviously, in some instances, you sort of, you’re always having to play that game of like, what was the intention behind that, right, but trying to decouple that, and again, recognising it for the noise that it is like, yes, maybe they slighted you because you’re a woman, and that’s really effing annoying. But maybe they’re just an asshole. You know what I mean? So like, you can’t, you can’t change them. But what you can change is how you internalise it, and how you view that as a reflection on you and who you are, and whether you belong there. And, and again, look, there will be situations where you can’t take it so lightly, right, where people are actively challenging your role, your position, your livelihood, and that is a totally different ballgame that requires you to, you know, file the complaint or to confront the person or do that thing. But a lot of these little like micro aggressions and micro frictions. I would say you have to choose your battles on, right, because it can be as women, it’s exhausting. It’s exhausting. I mean, because you are constantly bombarded with like I said, these micro aggressions these micro frictions, these these signals, and these both overt and subtle things that tell you, Oh, you don’t belong, or it’s still a boys club or whatever. And again, in different industries, it’s, it’s worse than another’s. So you just sadly, as many of us have been doing for a lot of our careers, you have to yes, take it on your chin for some of the time. But then choose the things that are worth it to you to speak up about and choose your battles and then fight those effing battles as hard as you possibly can. Because if you don’t do it, who will?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I love that. And for me, I, I feel like getting clear on your values, what’s important to you and standing by those. And then what can you just let go of, what can you not put the meaning around the other stuff as well. I feel like we could talk again, to be honest.

Rupal Patel  

Let’s do it.

Murray Guest  

I feel like I haven’t explored your whole journey in the CIA and, and more around what you bring to your leadership conversations with the people you work with. So I’ve loved catching up with you, loved hearing about some of your examples and what you do. It’s been so good. But I do want to know, who do you work with these days? Like, what are those clients you’re working with now?

Rupal Patel  

Yeah. So it’s, it’s a mix, actually, it’s about I would say 70% corporate executives and teams, and then about 30% high growth startups and founders. So it’s, it’s basically growth oriented companies, both in financial growth but also sort of team growth and market growth and that kind of thing. But who wants to do it in a very thoughtful way so not growth for its own sake, not you know, pursuing the hockey stick numbers or whatever it is, that’s, you know, sexy headlines for their own sake, but like doing things very thoughtfully, and, and without, again, helping them cut through all of the noise to find what is important, what is driving us here, what’s what are our values as a team as an organisation or as a leader? You know, a lot of the work I do that starts out being team related ends up actually being leadership related and, you know, and how, how do I how do I lead myself? And then it becomes Okay, well, how do I think this team, how do we lead this organisation. And then leadership becomes something that everybody does, it’s not, and in different ways and with different levels of impact, etc, etc. But yeah, it’s all about, it’s all about growth, both as an organisation, but then also as individuals. So yeah, growing companies and growing humans.

Murray Guest  

And your clients are based in the UK.

Rupal Patel  

They’re everywhere. Yeah, so I’ve got some in India, some in the US, some in the UK, all over the world. So yeah, that’s the beauty of again, the past few years is that all of those physical boundaries have in many ways been broken down. So it’s been really exciting to get to work with companies from all over different cultures in different regions, because the circumstances are often obviously very different. But the fundamentals are totally universal. And that’s what’s been really nice to see.

Murray Guest  

And what’s life like living in the UK? Because obviously, you didn’t grow up there?

Rupal Patel  

No, it didn’t. Do you know, it’s, I really like it, for this time in my life, where I’m at, as a person, as an individual, as a professional, it’s the perfect place to be, I think, my very generous, not very generous, but my general view is that the UK is the right for me balance between American capitalism and ambition and growth and you know, sort of hard charging like that alpha stuff tempered with Europeans sort of socialism light. So it’s a really nice middle ground. I imagine Australia to be the same. I’ve never visited Australia but I love Australians.

Murray Guest  

It’s not that far honestly.

Rupal Patel  

22 hours no big deal. So yeah, I think for me, it’s a good match.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I love when I travel, trying different food and I’m wondering what’s a food that you’ve now fallen in love with whilst you’ve been living in the UK? 

Rupal Patel  

I mean, if you want me to give you British food, make something up. I mean, I don’t dislike British food, chips is amazing, right? Like we do fish and chip Fridays at home. And that’s always a treat, but it’s not really anything I crave. I’m sorry. I love I love, my favourite foods are Ethiopian food, Lebanese food and Indian food. Yeah, so luckily, I’ve got all of that here. And then fish and chip Fridays.

Murray Guest  

My wife did the living in London and Bristol and a few areas in her late 20s. And she talks about chips and curry sauce.

Rupal Patel  

I have not tried it yet. I can’t bring myself to do it. I know. The other thing. I can’t bring myself to eat is beans on toast. I’ve yet to try beans on toast. Yeah, and everyone thinks I’m crazy. But I can’t.

Murray Guest  

I’m with you on that. I think I did like that was a thing when I was younger. But no, you’re not missing out on anything. There’s plenty of good curries and other things you can be eating.

Rupal Patel  

Exactly. It’s the national dish. Right? So.

Murray Guest  

So thank you so much. I love your energy. I love your passion. I love the unique insights that you bring to leadership from from an organisation perspective, but also that self leadership. And I feel like this hour has gone so quick. So wonderful. Yeah, I do want to ask a couple of last questions. First one was where’s the best place for people to find you online?

Rupal Patel  

My website which is rupalypatel.com.

Murray Guest  

Wonderful. Okay, so we can send people there, while the link also to your book in the show notes.

Rupal Patel  

Yeah, here it is.

Murray Guest  

And my last question, which I ask on everyone that comes on the podcast is what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Rupal Patel  

For me, it’s an easy one. It’s doing the hard work to really understand who you are and what makes you tick and what your values are. And then living a life in alignment with that.

Murray Guest  

Oh, I love that so much. Thank you. That is that’s got me thinking about myself, which I love. And I hopefully gets plenty of listeners thinking about what that looks like for them as well. So this has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much. 

Rupal Patel  

It’s been my pleasure. 

Murray Guest  

We’ll be talking again, I know we will be. 

Rupal Patel  

Let’s do it.

Murray Guest  

Let’s do it. Thank you.

Rupal Patel  

Thanks.

Episode 111 – Chloe Oestreich | Executive Developmental Coach

In this episode I speak with Chloe Oestreich, who coaches leaders from Fortune 500 companies on how to communicate effectively, be heard and lead with impact.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

Chloe, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for reaching out last week, we had a great chat last week getting to know you and what you do what you’re passionate about. And I am excited to chat to you about the awesome work that you do today. So thank you.

Chloe Oestreich  

Thank you, Murray. Thanks so much for having me. It’s a pleasure.

Murray Guest  

How is 2022 going for you so far this year, we’re near like the midway point. How has this year been for you?

Chloe Oestreich  

It’s been extraordinary. It’s been it’s been an amazing year, we are very, very fortunate in that we made the move up to the Northern Rivers, from big city kids, we moved up. And we’ve been loving our time up here, feeling extremely blessed to be surrounded by such amazing nature. Saw whales yesterday, and dolphins, so how can I possibly complain? It’s been, it’s been an incredible six months of settling in and becoming part of this really amazing community.

Murray Guest  

It is a beautiful part of the world. I do love it. So Northern Rivers is that northern part of New South Wales. And as you said, so full of life. It is a great part of the world. But you’ve made me think of something, and I’m just wondering, your own mindset around your business, serving your clients, people you work with, did you go through a bit of a wrestle about how do I do that when I’m living there versus living in the city? Did you go through a bit of a process there?

I did and I didn’t, here’s the thing, I was so set in my ways when COVID started, and I was convinced that I couldn’t do my job in a virtual setting, I thought, you know, my business is going to go bust, I won’t be able to see anyone. And then COVID came along, and it’s like, you got to adapt. And we did, right, we all adapted it. And in many ways, this is the new normal now. And even though people are allowed to go back into the office, lots of people are choosing to work from home. And so for my clients, even towards the end of all of the crazy lock downs, which I still very much experienced as a Melbournian, it was all horrible. Let’s not even talk about that. But you know, people were still choosing to see me in a virtual setting. And so I thought, What the hell am I doing here then if no one wants to see me in person, then surely it’s going to be okay if I if I move somewhere else, because people are fine with that. So it was a wrestle at the very beginning, when COVID started, and it was not a wrestle once we had gone through this whole, you know, adaptive period of well, this is the new normal now.

Murray Guest  

I feel like the individualised nature has come out through this journey for the last few years around each person has their unique needs and wants. And that’s really come to the fore. And whether you’re a leader or you’re leading a team, even organisations as a whole, like that uniqueness and how we work, what that looks like for me versus you and how we make all that work. I feel like that’s really came out, which is great, I think because we’re treating people like humans again.

Mm hmm. And it has allowed so much greater flexibility, right? I mean, lots of parents are finally actually getting to spend time with their children and choosing when they wish to do the work as long as they are doing the work. So while it’s been a really tough, you know, last two years, and lots of people don’t even know what happened and what happened in 2022, or what happened in 2020. I think there are also lots of positive things that have come out of it. And I’m really excited by them.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I totally agree. And I do feel for people through the journey and lots of people have had situations much, much harder than I have, that’s for sure. But yeah, if we can see the good out of it. And take that going forward, I think that’s that’s super important. Now, you spend your life as an executive coach, how did you find your, your way into being an executive coach? How did you get to that point?

Well, let me talk about my why. Yeah. I actually think that when I meet people for the very first time, that is what I am most interested in. Why do they get out of bed every morning? Why do they do what they do? So for me, this started from a really young age, I am German. I’m half German, half French Swiss. I grew up in a very stereotypical German family. I’ve got three brothers and my father and one of my brothers are engineers. And the other two are very left brained, very analytical, very rational thinkers. So I feel blessed that I was surrounded by extraordinary talent and intelligence from a very young age. But what I also noticed from a very young age, besides recognising that I was definitely the black sheep in the family was that dinner table conversations always revolved around, you know, quantum physics or mathematical equations or inventions, or patents whatever it was, and I, I didn’t understand most of it. I don’t think that’s due to the subject matter expertise, I genuinely believe that’s due to the fact that my brothers aren’t particularly great communicators. And they’re also not particularly great at the the soft skills, the emotional intelligence, the piece around how do I connect meaningfully with the audience that I’m speaking to? And the fact that my sister knows very little about this? And how do I sell this great patent, to someone who has no idea about it? And so I thought, wow, how many other people are in this situation where they’re extraordinarily skilled, they’ve got great ideas, but they actually don’t know how to sell these ideas very well. That’s where it falls down. And so that was the catalyst really, for me getting really passionate and excited about helping individuals become more impactful and more effective in the way that they communicate and the way that they lead, in the way that they present their own personal brand on a daily basis.

Murray Guest  

Do you think when you look back at those conversations around the dinner table, that you were already starting to lean into a bit of coaching? And and with that curiosity with your brothers?

Totally, totally. I mean, once I understood what they shared with me, I got really excited. I’m like, How are you not, how am I not seeing that you’re getting excited about this, I feel there’s a great disconnect between the data that you’re sharing with me and the emotional connection that you have towards your pitch, which, you know, where’s that, where’s that excitement about the fact that you might potentially be saving the world in some way, shape, or form? And so I just saw missed opportunity. And in many ways, I just saw opportunity in capital letters.

Murray Guest  

So good. So how’s that work now with your brothers?

Oh, well, they’re certainly not allowed to listen to, well, it’s funny because they are all in extremely successful, established careers working for businesses. And they probably recognise to some extent that their, you know, silly Black Sheep sister, at a point, and that these things really matter, right? I mean, if you’re in a leadership position, it’s no longer about content. It’s no longer about subject matter expertise, all of a sudden, it becomes about context, it becomes about do you have the ability to inspire and lead a team of people, so they stay engaged, and they really thrive at work. And ironically, two out of those, in fact, three out of those are now in leadership positions. So I think, you know, they’re all probably in their own ways, going through this really interesting process, where they’re realising what was once important about what I brought to the job is no longer important, because there’s a reason why I’ve stepped up. And my team demands different things for me.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. So I think they can listen to this episode, and then send you the cheque to thank you for your time and energy and coaching would be great.

Chloe Oestreich  

That’d be fabulous.

Murray Guest  

You mentioned context. And I see this in the leaders I work with, and I think it’s a really good point, I think, in the busyness to do stuff, the busyness to deliver on the strategic plan, to do the work, that that providing the context and the why often gets missed. How do you help leaders start to do that, and to actually slow down and bring that context in their communication?

So great question. And it comes back again to the fact that leaders need to be able to perform and communicate at different altitudes right, we need to be able to communicate and perform at 50,000 feet at 5000 feet and at 500 feet. And that’s a muscle that we build to be able to step into a situation and recognise really quickly, what’s required from me here, what level of strategic thinking is required and what level of detail is required in that moment. I would also argue that, and this is so simple, but I genuinely don’t think that people do it enough is to be really deliberate with their intention when they walk into a meeting. And I’m not talking about a surface level intention, which is, you know, to update staff or to pass on information or to get budget approval or to get sign off. But what’s the actual emotional connection to your intention? Are you here to inspire, to excite, to motivate, to challenge, all of the above? Right, that’s your job, it’s your job to be really clear on that intention. And what what does value look like? What do you want people to walk out with? So I would hope that you know, the people who are listening to this, if there’s one thing that they’re going to take away from our conversation today is how deliberate and connected are you towards your underlying intention day in day out? What do you want people to really walk out with?

Murray Guest  

So if I’m showing up for an online meeting, tomorrow, Team, zoom, whatever it might be, and I want to bring the intention the best I can to that meeting, to achieve the outcomes I’m bringing to that. What’s your tips to help someone do that, to prepare for that, to get in that alignment? Because that’s the word that’s popped into my mind the alignment between the words and the energy.

Chloe Oestreich  

Yeah, so let’s dig into this a little bit deeper. So when you say the outcomes, what are the outcomes?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, so I’m, let’s say theorising here, the outcome is that I want to show up for this meeting with my internal stakeholders and get them on board. And I guess someone offered the next steps in a project. And so if I’m doing that, what’s on my mind is then how do I make sure that how I show up emotionally, physically, energetically is aligned to those outcomes? 

Chloe Oestreich  

Well, it’s a really good question. I think the way I would approach it is, when you look at that outcome, what’s the, and it goes back again to what’s the impression you want to have on your audience, on the people? And what do you need to do? What do you need to tune into to be able to do that? Now I personally like to pick a verb. I like to pick a doing word because it’s something that you can do, right? Is it to inspire? Is it to excite? Is it to motivate? And I would argue and say, most people know how to tap into that. If I asked you and said, Murray, do you know what it looks like for Murray to motivate? You will know how to do that. Yeah, but if you don’t, then don’t pick it. But right, so you will have a really good idea of what that looks like, well, motivating, looks like I’m going to be, you know, asking lots of questions I’m going to use, you know, my body language or my gestures, or I’m going to use my voice in a way, right? It doesn’t need to be as prescriptive as that because you’re actually you’ve connected to it, you know what motivating looks like. So that’s how I would approach it. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great. Gotcha. Gotcha. And I like that connection to the verb, because then in the doing, the behaving, you know, I think people can connect with that more than some sort of theoretical, you know, I’m, I’m being something like I’m being I guess the words pop in my head is curious. So if I’m being curious, that’s nice. But what am I actually doing with that, how’s it showing up?

Chloe Oestreich  

That’s right, that’s right. And this comes up quite often. So when when I ask people, What’s your intention? It’s often this very long winded, convoluted, well, I want to be able to get sign off and I want to be able to convey a level of trust. And it’s like, okay, how do you do that? So how do you do that? Now, if someone has the answer to that brilliant, that intention works for you. But more often than not people feel a little bit stuck. And they go, Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t know. I just thought that, you know, that might work. Well, if you can’t connect to it. And if you don’t know how to actively do it, then I would strongly encourage you to pick something that you can connect to, that you can tap into.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. So so important. For you, doing the work online and the executives you work with that are doing so much online, I feel like there’s some for me, what I’ve experienced Chloe is some simple things that people could just get a little bit better would make a big difference for that influencing online, for example, I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but I’ve seen this in so many sessions where unfortunately, people turning up, and there’s no light in front of them, and you can’t see their face. And then they’re saying, well, people in the team aren’t listening to me, it’s like, well, they can’t even see you. Like, I feel like there’s some simple things, we’re spending so much time online, in these in meetings or one on ones, just get these little things right, like that will make a big difference.

Chloe Oestreich  

Yeah, there are so, there are so many simple strategies that we can use, I mean, we can talk about the things that are really easy to implement, and then we can go into that into a layer of depth. So as you rightly suggested, you know, it doesn’t, it doesn’t take much effort. But if you can just be mindful that you don’t have the washing in the background. Or that you’re sitting in your pyjama pants, I mean, by all means I’m sitting, I’m not sitting in my pyjamas, but I’m wearing my Ugg boots because it’s awfully cold. But you know, all of these things, they matter. And they actually also have an impact in how you show up and the energy that you bring into the room. So lighting is a really big part. The other part as well is if we can train ourselves to actually look into the camera and not get caught up by our own self image, the video in front of us, which a lot of people are doing, but you know, practice staring into the black empty hole that is your camera, because we know that eye contact is how we connect with people. And that’s what we do in real life. And that’s what we should be doing in a zoom call as well. A really simple strategy you can use is to actually frame up front. And you can do this with a lot of humour, that you are competing against so many different things, the notifications that are being set off in the calendar, the email inbox that’s dinging every three seconds. So you can actually set it up and ask people and say, hey, you know what, folks, we’ve got 20 minutes, I’d love you to shut down all notifications. And if you can put your phone on aeroplane mode, and then wait and sit and see if people do that, and they will do it. Right. So now you’ve just removed lots of distractions, that if they pop up, people are no longer going to listen to you, that email that has just popped up, unfortunately, is more important than you in that moment. So that’s the other piece that comes to my mind is that I think in a virtual setting, we need to it’s a continuous interaction. We actually can’t present for long periods of times anymore. We need to continuously check in with people and ask insightful questions. And I get that a lot. And people say, Oh but you know, I’m not getting the reaction that I want, people just give me this, you know that everyone’s on mute. And then they just, at times, give me a head nod. And if I say, Are there any questions then no one’s responding to my questions? Well, you know what? I would challenge that. And I would say, how much of that is contributed to the fact that perhaps you might not be comfortable with moments of pauses and silence?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. And my build on that, if I may, is, make it easy for people to contribute. And for example, in a lot of my sessions, and I’ve suggested this to leaders I’ve worked with is a lot of people do find it hard to speak up. Unmute. So let’s say share your thoughts in the chat. And then let’s start to explore some of those in the in the chat conversation. And doing that. Interestingly, though, how quickly I jumped in with that pause. And you’re right, because generally, as humans, we have a bit of a challenge with silence, don’t we? 

Chloe Oestreich  

Well, I don’t. No, but you’re right. I mean, we live in an incredibly busy, distracted world. And yes, I mean, people do struggle with a moment of silence. But I think if you’ve identified this to be a challenge for yourself, then I encourage you to practice it with the people who you feel most comfortable with. Tonight, tonight at dinner with your partner. Let’s see, if you can revel in a moment of pause. And what might arise as a result of that, of actually fully – my favourite topic – fully offering up sacred listening, not feeling like you need to respond because somebody is just, you know, shared something, but actually sitting with it, and practising pauses and silence and, you know, magic will unfold. I have no doubt.

Murray Guest  

Well I love that challenge and I invite listeners to share online and tag Chloe and myself how you’ve gone with some really sacred, deep listening to your partner, to your closest friends, family, and how you went with that, because it does make such a big difference. And I there’s something you said Chloe that that links to this. And that is that when you really show that you value and appreciate the other person, turn off the notifications, be fully present. It just shifts that whole conversation, doesn’t it?

Chloe Oestreich  

Yeah, totally, totally. On the sacred listening piece, I don’t know if we’ve got time for that. But listening is something I get really, really passionate about. Genuinely, because I think it’s one of the most undervalued skills. And also because I genuinely believe it is the the most extraordinary gift you can actually offer up to another person. There are actually four types in which we listen. And it’s factual listening, download listening, empathetic listening, and sacred listening. So it might be useful for people to have a think about when do I do what? And how can I find greater flexibility to go from one end to another? And, you know, do you want me to go through them? Just very quickly?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, I would love to hear because they’re a little bit different to my understanding. And so please, yes.

Chloe Oestreich  

So, and I will preface it by saying that neither are better or worse. And this isn’t about, you know, deciphering what’s good and what’s bad. And, and the reality is, we use all forms of listening throughout the day. Yeah. So they all have their advantages. So factual and download listening, as you can imagine, very low level of engagement. When we do factual and download listening, we often do it as the name suggests, when we listen for facts, when we listen for data, when we listen to the radio, when we listen to the news, right. And all of us did a lot of factual listening at the start of the pandemic, we listened out for numbers, we then move into a far more engaged phase, which is empathetic listening, and sacred listening. And empathetic listening has lots of advantages, as people can probably imagine, but it also has its repercussions. And the repercussions are that quite often when people do empathetic listening, they make it about themselves. So I’ve got lots of people in my network, including my mother, who will kill me for this, but my mother is a total empathetic listener. And you know, what she does is when I tell the story, she’ll go, that’s exactly what happened to me, now last week, when I went, and I go, how on earth did you just manage to hijack the conversation and make this about you? I mean, it’s just extraordinary. And then of course, lucky last, which I think it actually requires the highest form of intelligence is sacred listening. And when we offer up sacred listening, there is no judgement, there is no chatter, there is no evaluation, there is no second guessing there is just pure Being, which is why it’s so incredibly hard, because it requires a heightened level of self awareness of that individual to recognise their own bias and baggage and values and beliefs that they might be bringing into the conversation.

Murray Guest  

I love how you framed up those four types of listening with that we do all four during the day. And the self leadership it takes to think what’s the level of listening I need to bring to this conversation right now? And being clear on that. Yeah.

Chloe Oestreich  

That’s right. I mean, sacred listening requires extraordinary amounts of energy. Right. And you would know, we’re both coaches, this is what is required for us to tap into with our clients. But if I call up the bank, and if I am sitting at customer service, you know, I will probably preserve some of my energy, and I will tune into download or factual listening. Otherwise, you know, I’ll run out of steam pretty quickly.

Murray Guest  

So I feel like there’s something here, which is a theme through what you do with the executives you work with. And I, and what I feel the theme that’s coming out for me clearly is knowing your audience, in in the other person, for lack of better word that you are talking with, is super, super important. So going back to the listening types, or providing that context or the level of information as you talk through, I feel like that’s such a key theme that as as to be an effective leader really knowing that audience and what you’re talking about.

Chloe Oestreich  

Totally, and I think first and foremost, know thyself very well.

Murray Guest  

You have a saying which I love leadership starts with self leadership. So can we unpack that a little bit? Tell me a bit more about that?

Chloe Oestreich  

Yeah, look at I get so passionate about this because I feel there are too many individuals in leadership positions who have the privilege, and it is a privilege to lead others but know very little about how to lead themselves. Yeah. And this is where it starts, right? It’s, it’s really understanding how your own biases and meaning making potentially getting in the way of you being able to view multiple perspectives. Again, I mean, as a leader, that’s your job is to have the ability to step away from your own influences and perceptions, really, and to be able to look at things objectively and then, you know, make a decision based on that. And that requires, again, a heightened level of self awareness, and really understanding what are some of the behaviours or ways of thinking or showing up that are an integral part of my personality but perhaps they’re no longer serving me? Right? And how do I address those. And that’s what self leadership is. Self leadership is, I like to talk about the different stages, right, we go from growing up to waking up to showing up to well, actually cleaning up to showing up and this goes back to Ken Wilber’s integral theory, which is extraordinary. And if people want to look into that further they can. And really what this goes, what this comes back to is you journey through these different stages, and you actually decipher how you create meaning how you currently perceive reality. And it’s by recognising that there are many different ways of how you and I both perceive reality, right, you are only really viewing things through your own lens. That’s not necessarily the whole truth. So you have to step away from that.

Murray Guest  

From that, so can I ask when you’re working with the executive leader, what’s the journey look like? To build that self leadership awareness?

Chloe Oestreich  

Well, people come to me at different stages of awareness. And really, what I specialise in, what I do with the leaders that I work with is developmental executive coaching. And it is about the development of the individual. So in comparison to leadership coaching, where is very impactful, however, it doesn’t go as deep. I mean, with that with developmental executive coaching, you really dig deep into understanding what are the beliefs? What are your values? And how deeply connected are you towards those? And can you find greater flexibility from that? Because it is bound to challenge you at some stage, because what happens when you’ve got team members who have different beliefs and different values? Like, are you all of a sudden going to dismiss their opinions? You can’t, you have to have the ability to look at this objectively. So it depends on where people are at. I mean, most, not most, lots of individuals come to me, and they’ve got a very good level of awareness. But as you can imagine, we go down to a layer where people start to really question you know, in many ways, not who am I? But what am I?

Murray Guest  

And I was going to say jumping in there, because I’m so excited about this is the ‘why am I’ like, where did that come from? Because as you were talking at the start of our chat around being one of four, I’m one of four children as well, second youngest. And what I’ve loved is my journey and understanding around and I’m still on it, let’s be honest, about how I show up now being shaped from being one of four children when I was younger.

Chloe Oestreich  

Yeah, I mean, that I want to be very careful because there’s a big difference between psychological work and therapy, which I place tremendous value on and coaching work. Also in coaching, where we don’t explore so much the why, but we explore the what sits behind it, right? So of course in psychology, we often ask why questions, and we go back to childhood, and we go back to all of these pieces. In coaching, we go to okay, what sits behind it, and how do we do it differently? And where’s the appetite to doing it differently? But one thing is for sure, and you raised a really good point. And I think, you know, this takes a while for people to let that sink in. And if we all truly understood that I would argue and say that we probably wouldn’t have any wars. But you know, the beliefs and the values that we clutch on to, the very black and white thinking of I am this I am not this, you actually have very little say in this, your parents decided that between the age of zero and seven. Yeah. Right. So it’s just ridiculous really how grown adults are so passionate about these, you know, these belief systems, when in actual fact had actually very little to do with you, your entire construct your entire personality is fully formed by the age of seven. So the work that we do, and the excitement that you get from being in your 30s, and your 40s, and in your 50s, and to actually get to question it and go, I don’t think I want, I want to distance myself from that. Yeah. And what does it look like for me to do this and what freedom arises as a result of that? I mean, it’s extraordinary work, right? Because all of a sudden, this world opens up. And you’ve got far more ability to, to accept to actually accept that people come from different stages of lives, and they’ve got different opinions, and you no longer feel so tightly held by what you believe to be true.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Wow. And the letting go of a belief that potentially, what I’m hearing has been hindering you as an Executive leader. And I just I put myself, I think, in this moment into one of your clients, and that sort of weight coming off the shoulders, that that realisation or those beliefs aren’t me, that, and I’m going to, to, I guess, for lack a better phrase, correct me please here, not like, let that control me or rule me anymore. Like, I’m going to create a new belief system that really supports who I am.

Chloe Oestreich  

That’s exactly right. It’s not I mean, we’re working with, you know, we’re working with the ego, the ego is always with us, of course, the ego is there to protect us and to keep us safe. And it’s not about poo-pooing the ego. The ego has gotten us to where we are today. Yeah. However, it is a construct. Right? It is, it’s a constructed personality, which has been perfectly crafted over the last X amount of years. And you get to question it, you get to actually question it, and not necessarily go, you know, you don’t need to even throw it away. But it’s to gain distance from it. And the luxury that you get from actually being able to step away from it and go, Wow, that self limiting belief that I’ve had my entire life is, is a mere thought. Yeah. It’s a mere thought, and how is it serving me? And if it’s not serving me, how do I gain greater distance away from that? Right? And so yeah.

Murray Guest  

What I’m wondering is, who are the executives that you love to work with?

Chloe Oestreich  

Individuals who are prepared to run towards the fire, so to speak, because this is deeply confronting, it is confronting work, right? Everything you you once knew, you will start to question. And I had a I had a client yesterday, who actually, I felt it really landed with him. And he looked me in the eyes, and he said, So what am I then? And I said, What a brilliant question. What an extraordinary question. Sit with it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Now, this may take us somewhere, I’m mindful it’s a loaded question potentially Chloe. When an executive gets to that point, and they’ve had that self realisation, how do they communicate that to their team?

Chloe Oestreich  

I don’t know if it’s necessary that they communicate that to their team, I think it’s necessary to demonstrate that through the actions, the choices that they’re making. So all of a sudden, this person will show up very differently at work, and they will probably have greater capacity to hold and view multiple opinions and perspectives without shutting people down. They will most likely have greater understanding and compassion. So it’s through the doing, it’s through the actions that people are stepping into, as opposed to Hey, I’ve had this really great awakening and by the way, you know nothing will ever be the same. I mean, you may wish to share that I, I probably don’t think that people will as that they keep that to themselves. And then they go, Okay, with this newfound insight that I’ve had, how am I going to demonstrate this level of maturity? That’s really what it is, right? This is actually, you know, these are the definitions of, of the levels of intelligence and maturity, and one of them is to recognise that we all perceive reality through our own own constructed lenses. And having the ability to step away from that is what makes you more mature as a leader.

Murray Guest  

I love your connection to the doing, as you talked to before about your intention, and what am I doing? What’s that verb, and now, let’s be honest, as a leader, you could say all the things you’d like to say about your journey, but unless you’re doing something with it, then you know, there’s no transformation, there’s nothing really changing if you don’t do that. So. So on the reverse, who do you not like to work with?

Chloe Oestreich  

That’s great. I need to think about that. A, because I haven’t worked with anyone who I don’t like for a very long time, I am in a very privileged situation where I go through a rigorous screening process because I want, you know, my time is, is, is finite, and so is the other person’s time. So who do I not like working with, people who, who aren’t open to, to trying new things, people who are closed minded and set in their ways, who believe that the world consists of black and white. And lots of people are like that, you know, and again, like, they wear it as a badge of honour. It’s like, I’m a very black and white person. I’m like, What’s good about that?

Murray Guest  

Yeah.

Chloe Oestreich  

The world is a deeply complex place. I mean, there’s so much grey, so much complexity. So I feel challenged by people who don’t want to be challenged, I feel challenged by people who are closed minded and don’t want to learn and grow. And these individuals should not be in leadership positions.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great. And what I hear from you too, is you’re really clear upfront about that’s the person I want to work with, and that’s what I expect for you in our partnership when we work together.

Chloe Oestreich  

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes.

Murray Guest  

So one other thing that I think we can explore today, and by the way, thanks so much for your depth of knowledge and sharing your energy, it’s been so awesome.

Chloe Oestreich  

Thank you.

Murray Guest  

I know that as people move up in an organisation, they get to higher levels within an organisation, and they want to have bigger impact and bring a bigger presence. So as a senior leader within an organisation, I know that you’ve got some insights around how I can really bring that presence to what I do, and what I say. What would be the tip that you would love to share with listeners today around that, in really bringing that presence.

Chloe Oestreich  

So let’s talk about executive presence. And there are many ways in which we can harness or tap into that, and it’s within all of us. And there is the Inside Out approach. And then there is the Outside In approach, there are many things that you can do to be perceived as confident, competent, and trustworthy. And that goes down to the executive presence that you bring to the table. But then, of course, there’s also the mindset piece, right, which can throw all of these wonderful tools and techniques at someone but if you still have that niggling self doubt, that is taking away from your confidence, then, while those tools and skills and techniques will only take you so far, when we talk about executive presence, there are three main components really. And these are physical, vocal and mental presence and I refer to lots of research that has been done, especially based on a first impression, right when we meet someone for the first time we make up our mind within the first three seconds of meeting somebody. And then the research, the studies that have been done on this they talked about the importance of how someone looks, dresses, shakes your hand and carries themselves. We’ve gone a little bit further since then, and you can now put it into those three pieces, which is the physical, the vocal and the mental presence. Now underneath those sit a number of subcategories that make up this bigger picture. And so when we talk about confidence, when we talk about competency and trust, we do that through these three components. So it’s being conscious of nonverbal communication, you know, 90% of our communication is nonverbal. It’s through the use of our body language, our gestures, it’s through being mindful and, and having an intention and listening. It’s the volume, the pitch, the pace, the tonality. There are so many components to that. But that’s, that’s what makes up executive presence. And I suppose my, my offer would be if people wanted to have greater executive presence, it’s actually digging a little bit deeper into well, what is it that I’m currently doing, that’s taking away from my executive presence? Is it due to the way that I stand, due to the way that I communicate, due to the lack of eye contact that I’m making with people? What is sending signals to my audience that I am doubting myself? And so there are some lots of like, really small, quick changes that you can implement in just gaining greater credibility if you work on those?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great. I love that. It’s like, what am I doing as an executive or a leader, as a human, as a human, that is taking away from my message, which is, you know, making it murky. It’s getting in the way of it landing? 

Chloe Oestreich  

Yeah absolutely. And I can point out a few. I mean, the most common ones, are you shared with me that you work with a lot of women and that part of your audience are lots of females. So something that women may wish to look out for are the upward inflection. Right? So if you have a higher pitched voice, and if you speak with an upward inflection, which is when we go up at the end of a sentence, yes. Yep. You are losing immediate credibility due to the fact that in that moment, you’re actually asking a question, as opposed to making a statement. Now, the upward inflection is an integral part of the Australian culture. So it’s really, really difficult however it’s not impossible. So that’s something that you can do immediately as you are speaking, here’s a tip. As you are speaking, you may wish to visualise a big fat full stop at the end of the sentence, right? Because what do we do naturally, when there’s a full stop? We go down, we don’t go up. We go down.

Murray Guest  

So simple, but I love the impact that makes huge, huge. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. This has been wonderful, Chloe. 

Chloe Oestreich  

Oh, my pleasure. 

Murray Guest  

Tell me, what does the rest of 2022 look like for you?

Chloe Oestreich  

Well, I’m very excited to share that I will finally be seeing my family for the first time in three years.

Murray Guest  

So wonderful. Yeah, it’s been so tough, to see your family members. So you’re heading back over?

Chloe Oestreich  

Yes, I’m heading to Europe at the end of July. And my brother who lives in New York is currently at home. And it’s going to be wild, Murray, you know, I’m a very different person to who I was three years ago, and so is my family. So it’s going to be almost like, you know, dating one another because we are meeting one another for the very first time. And I think that’s really, really important actually. Another thing that people hopefully get out of our talk today, you know, we’re doing all of this, I hope, people are doing all of this wonderful work on themselves. Well, so does your family most likely. So give them the benefit of doubt next time you see them and recognise that they’re a different person to who they were yesterday, because you know what, they’ve had 24 more hours on this planet, right. So how can we approach these conversations with greater curiosity? I think it’s the people that we love most that sadly, it’s where our curiosity wanes off pretty quickly we go I already know that. I know mom, I know dad. I know my sister. Well actually, do you? Can we actually step into a family dinner and go, Okay, I’m putting away all of my biases because that person has gone through a lot in the last week or two weeks, in my case three years and I’m about to meet them for the very first time in a different way.

Murray Guest  

And I think what we explored today around that listening, that curiosity, showing up with intention, if people can bring that for those people they love, that they’re closest to in life, transformation on those relationships. Huge. Yeah, yeah. So I’m just thinking timing. So not Octoberfest no, it’s going to be there before then.

Chloe Oestreich  

I’m going to be there before that. And also, even though I am from the Bavaria, I’m not from Munich. So I’m actually from a small town outside of Frankfurt, which sits on the border between Bavaria and another state. But yeah, I’m going to be there for the month of August. So lovely, European summer, yes, and catching up with with family, but also some of my best friends. And then I return in September, and I am genuinely really looking forward to the work that I’m currently doing. I’m working with some really amazing companies and individuals and I feel, I genuinely feel there’s a real shift, there’s a real shift in people wanting to be courageous and wanting to really do the work on themselves. And I don’t know whether that’s COVID, or I don’t know whether we are being more open with our health, or we’re being open with, you know, it’s okay to be vulnerable and authentic. But it’s exciting. It’s really exciting to be in the coaching space in 2022.

Murray Guest  

I agree with you, I, I feel like there’s, and maybe we’re just attracting the people we want to work with. But I feel like there has been a good shift in people wanting to do the deep work, that self reflection, and invest in themselves, and leaders wanting to invest in their teams. So I’m really loving that. Now, I want to ask you a personal question. When you spend that time overseas, will you do any work? Or are you that sort of person that’s like, I’m going to switch off for that whole time?

Chloe Oestreich  

I’m going to completely switch off.

Murray Guest  

Oh I have trouble with that Chloe.

Chloe Oestreich  

No, I am, you know, I and I’m not saying the word black and white. But I am very absolute. I am very absolute when it comes to that. My my time is so precious with with my family. I live on the other side of the world after all. And you know, I work really hard when I work. But then when I have a break, I really really take a break. And I have no trouble taking that break either. It’s funny, Murray, you would, this might be a lovely challenge you may want to take on for your next year. I’ve just returned from the 10 day vipassana silent retreat. Have you ever heard of this?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, a friend of mine, I’m happy to share in the Blue Mountains, West of Sydney. 

Chloe Oestreich  

Exactly where I went. 

Murray Guest  

He facilitates these. And he said Murray you should come along. And how did you go?

Chloe Oestreich  

I loved it. Yeah, I mean, don’t get me wrong. It was an extraordinary challenge. There’s nothing, for the listeners who don’t know, for 10 days, there is no stimulation whatsoever. There’s no reading, no writing, no exercise, no talking, no eye contact, you are meditating for 10 hours per day for 10 days. So is it the hardest thing I’ve ever done? Hell yeah. But is it also the most profound and meaningful 10 days I’ve had? Yes. 100%. So I loved it. And I also hated it. But I loved it more than I hated it. I think hate is a strong word. It was challenging. It’s really hard. But it was an extraordinary experience. And one that I actually recommend everyone does.

Murray Guest  

Well, I appreciate your challenge. 

Chloe Oestreich  

Are you accepting? 

Murray Guest  

I do, I accept your challenge. It’s funny as my own dialogue in my head right now, which we won’t unpack as to the whole reasons why I would and wouldn’t, but thank you. I commit to closing the loop. And experiencing a vipassana retreat by 12 months from now. There you go, by the end of June next year. 

Chloe Oestreich  

I love that Murray, I think we should do another episode about our experiences. 

Murray Guest  

Great idea. Let’s do that. Okay. So thank you so much. It’s been wonderful to connect and to talk to someone so passionate about what they do and honestly someone that was so generous with their knowledge and sharing those tips so much that people can take from this conversation. Really, really appreciate it. First, if anyone wants to find you online, where’s the best place to connect with you?

Chloe Oestreich  

People can find me on LinkedIn. First Name, Last Name, Chloe Oestreich, people can also jump on my website. And actually on that I forgot to mention this, because I’m so conscious that most of your listeners would be listening to this while they are doing school pickup, or they’re on the run, or they’re walking. And we’ve shared so much here today that people might not have had a pen and paper in hand. So I’ve actually put together a free video training which people can access. And so if you jump on to www.coconsultancy.com.au/mg, so you can jump on that. And then you can access this free video training around executive presence. And you can find me through there or you can jump on my website, which is www.coconsultancy.com.au. Or just google me I’ll come up my my last name is so tricky, I doubt you are going to find two Chloe Oestreich’s.

Murray Guest  

Well, thank you so much for your generosity of that video training. That is wonderful. And we’ll definitely have that in the show notes, as well links to your website and LinkedIn. And you are unique. So thank you so much for your time. To wrap us up, Chloe, I ask everyone this question, what is your definition of inspired energy?

Chloe Oestreich  

I love that question. And I had to think about it when you asked me at the start of the podcast, but I think I’ve got a different definition now. Well, I’ve been very inspired by our conversation today. And I think you very much represent inspired energy. I think inspired energy to me is someone who is inspired by what it is that they are doing, representing, tapping into, and that is the energy that is resulting from that that they are bringing into the world or into the moment or into the encounter.

Murray Guest  

It is such a beautiful way to finish our chat. Thank you so much. I honestly really appreciate that. I get energised from these conversations because I get to speak to people like you and in all honesty, again, I will repeat what I said it has been so wonderful to connect with you, to learn from you and to spend this time together. So thank you so much. Really appreciate that. All the best for your trip coming up. That’s so exciting for you and I hope you have a wonderful, safe, relaxing trip. So thank you. 

Chloe Oestreich  

Thanks, Murray. Thanks for having me.

Episode 110 – Shirley Dalton | Business Freedom – People, Process, Possibility

In this episode I speak with Shirley Dalton, an author and business mentor who is on a mission to help businesses regain control through the power of their people and their systems.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

Shirley, welcome to the podcast. I’ve so enjoyed just chatting with you a bit about what you’ve been up to and what’s been going on. And so looking forward to having a great chat today about your new book and a few other things. How are you keeping? Are you keeping warm?

Shirley Dalton  

Very warm. Yes, I’ve gotten used to having a water bottle when we were travelling in the motor home and some of the places were pretty cold down in Tassie. So it’s nice to be back in Newcastle with the heater.

Murray Guest  

And yeah, so now on the motor home trip, how long were you out in the motor home? Because, obviously with COVID I think lots of people have hit the road. But, or thought about doing it, and Tammy and I’ve thought about it, but you did it. What was that like? Where did you go?

Shirley Dalton  

Yeah, well, we waited about 10 months for it to be built. And we got it in March 2019. And we went down to Tasmania in January 2020. Went across to America for some more training and development. And as we were coming back from that, that was in March, everything was just shutting down. Like you know, Maxwell Smart boom, doors, and we had to go into two weeks lock down in the motor home in Tasmania. And we were just so lucky that we had some friends that were travelling from Maitland. They went and did a shop for us because Coles and things weren’t even delivering. And by the end of the 14th day, we were like, Oh God, have we got enough milk to have a cup of coffee here, it was pretty interesting. We went for three months to Tassie, ended up nine months. And that was pretty good. Because you know, we could travel around after the three month lockdown. And then pretty much we dodged most of the lockdowns we just had one week in Darwin. And the rest of the time we were travelling and all up, we travelled and worked for about three years in the motor home.

Murray Guest  

Oh, so good. Now, this could be a very long list. But I wanted to check where would be a couple of recommendations for people in Australia that are listening that are like, based on where you went over those three years. Where would you say you’ve absolutely got to go and visit?

Everywhere, everywhere. Because everything’s so different. It for me, it was just so amazing to see how people live like there’s lots of little country towns, particularly out from Adelaide in South Australia. That was really interesting. Tasmania was just gorgeous. And they talk about the weather down there. And they say, Well, if you don’t like the weather, wait five minutes. That was really good. And learning about the culture. So north and south of Tasmania don’t really get on. In fact, we met people who had not tried the beer from the north or the south.

Murray Guest  

Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah,

That was really interesting. North Queensland we really enjoyed as well. And, and then going up the centre, it was really great to do it. I don’t understand how people love living out with the red dirt. But they do. And Uluru, of course, we rode our pushbikes around the base of that. And that was just magical.

Murray Guest  

Oh, yeah. So there’s a couple of places I’ve been to which I’m totally on the same page with you, I love Tasmania, still haven’t been to Uluru, it’s on the list. I’ve got to get there. Now, how do you maintain a healthy relationship? Motor home together for three years. How do you do that?

Well, when we first got it, we’d been married for about 30 years. And I have to say Murray in the first 30 days at nearly did us in we were getting divorced, it was hard. It was like you move over, you move over and we went from a king size bed to a bed that was probably not even a double. And you know, get over. And by the end of it though, and we were as green as green we knew nothing about how to to even put things up and the awning and stuff like that, the first place we left taps on the the the taps at the caravan park and but over time you just work it out. Ross had his jobs, I had my job. And you know, he would sit in his part of the van I would sit in mine. And it’s like, you know, when you’re working with people, you work out your roles. And it starts to gel after a while but it was it was pretty rough for the first couple of months.

Murray Guest  

Well, I’m thinking, you know, with your 30 years of experience of working with businesses, partnering with leaders, that all that experience that you’ve got and then applying that into the motor home to as you said, what are our roles, what are our responsibilities, how are we going to communicate and work together?

Yes. And I’m a bit of an introvert, you know, in terms of like Myers Briggs and that I get my energy by regenerating by myself. I’m also an only child. And Ross is one of six. And I’ve just had to be open and honest with him and say that one of us needs to go out today, either you or me, I need some space. And now we’re fortunate that in our relationship, we can communicate and say what we need. And the other ones pretty accommodating.

Murray Guest  

Well, I, it’s interesting, you mentioned communication. And I was working with a team just yesterday, and just talking about how the best teams do communicate more frequently, more openly. And to be honest, I even feel like COVID and the working from home and the different working arrangements have just highlighted again, how important that is, for teams to work effectively together.

Yeah, we have in one of our leadership experiences, we have a game where we teach people about you know that groupthink and how not speaking up is actually the kiss of death for the team. And I find this and we also talk about the team development wheel and how it’s really important for you to have that what I call argy bargy, you know, where we do have a little bit of a squabble. And if you learn how to communicate well, which is you know, something that you teach and teach really well, it’s okay to say what you think. And in fact, you have to say what you think, because you can’t resolve around and if people won’t talk. And we’ve learned that over the years, I’ve learnt when Ross and I were first together, we weren’t even married, and we went to counselling, to learn how to fight. Yeah, in his family, they literally would put the blinds down and pretend they weren’t home. And in my family, we just, you know, wouldn’t have a brawl. But it you know, I did a lot of name calling and a lot of yelling, because that’s what grew up with. And of course, he would take that personally, and then be mortally wounded. So I had to learn not to name call, and he had to learn not to take it personally.

Murray Guest  

It just reminded me of Tammy and I as well, because I grew up with three brothers and sorry, mom, but we put holes in a couple of walls because of you know that to resolve our differences. And Tammy grew up in a family where we just didn’t talk about those things. And so, and, and, and I’d love to get your thoughts on this, I think there’s something powerful, whether it’s in that partnership, as a family or within business about having conversations about how you have conversations.

Yes, yeah. And I find that most people don’t get that training Murray. And they, they, they do one or two things, they either ignore it or put their head in the sand and hope that it’ll go away. And of course it doesn’t. Or they’ll approach it in a way that gets people’s back up. And then you’ve got another argument instead of being able to be assertive and communicate, and we teach a lot of active listening and the I messages. You know, and, and it really is my mission in life is to actually help people to be able to get what they want, to be assertive. And you know, my definition of assertiveness is, I get my needs met and not at your expense. And in order to do that, I have to, one, be aware of my needs, two, take responsibility for getting my needs met. And then three, using my communication skills, which is the I messages, the active listening, the conflict resolution. And, yeah, it’s such a shame that that’s not even taught in schools. But I can also imagine that, you know, if the kids went home to mom and dad and said, You know, when this happens, I feel because…whack.

Murray Guest  

Well, and that’s, I mean, I don’t know where I heard it, you might be able to help me. But that idea or that concept of people are doing the best they can with the tools they’ve got. Yes. And if we take that mindset to these conversations within business or in life and saying, Well, maybe people haven’t got those tools around how to listen, how to communicate, how to be assertive in a non aggressive way.

Yeah, yeah. And I think too, there’s also the mindset part of it, that it’s okay for, for me, you mean I really can speak up and you really want me to speak up? So having the permission and giving yourself permission to speak up and then having the tools to be able to say what you want to communicate.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, permission. I’m hearing there permission, tools and it’s safe. It’s safe to speak up. Yes. Yeah. Can I just check Shirley, how do you think leaders can create that psychological safety so that people do feel safe to speak up?

Well, first of all, I think they have to be a good role model. And they have to be able to take on the feedback themselves. So they have to welcome the feedback. You know, I work with a lot of really good leaders. And even with their clients, when their clients give negative feedback and say, you know, this isn’t working for me. In fact, I can remember sitting in a meeting just recently and one of, we said to the client, please give us the feedback and the clients go, ah, you know, nobody really wants the feedback. And we said, No, we really do. Because if you don’t give it to us, we can’t improve and can’t change. And the client was really just blown away that somebody would be open to it. So I think as a leader, that’s one of the things to be encouraging people to actually give you the feedback and then to take it on board. Now, that doesn’t mean that you’re going to change everything because somebody says so. However, it’s creating that safety that wow, I can say it and I’m not going to get ostracised I’m not going to get yelled at, I’m not going to get defense. And I think that’s one of the things that most people find too, is that when they actually do give the feedback that then people react, and they defend against it, and then you get into that escalation.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And those those, I would even say, the split second reactions that people have, and making that okay to, to share that feedback and be open to that. It’s like feedback is one of those words, it has a lot of emotional attachment to it, isn’t it? Yes.

Somebody says to me, could I give you some feedback? I go, Okay, I’m ready. It’s almost like an inoculation.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And then that’s a good point that as as people that do work, and you and I do some similar work, that we’re still human, we’ve still got our own stuff that we’re, you know, oh, you’re going to give me some feedback. Okay. Um, let me let me get into the mode of acceptance. Yeah. So 30 years, is, you’ve had lots of conversations I bet about over 30 years helping businesses and leaders. Can I ask? What, in your reflection has been some of those moments where you’ve just thought, Wow, I’m so glad I get to do this work.

Oh, there’s been so many of those. I particularly love running my leadership experiences, and it’s my clients that call them experiences rather than a course or a programme. Because I get to see people come in as individuals, they come in as a group, and then at the end of it, and there’s four main workshop days. So it’s an intense time, and they go out as a team. And you know, there’s a couple of exercises in that where, one of them will usually step up. And, and one of the key learnings for people there is that nobody is fighting you for that leadership position. And then like, yeah, yeah, wow. Yeah, they just come together in this thing. And they’re not all saying, Well, let me run it. Let me run it. And I’m not part of it. I just give them this exercise. And, and do I give it away or not? So the instruction is they’re meant to learn a poem, and the instruction says it’s individual. And of course, they all come back and say, Oh, can we learn it as a group? And over the years, I’ve said, Yes, and I’ve said no, and either way works, what I found recently, though, and I don’t make it easy for them, that when they want to do it as a group, okay, everybody has to agree, because not everybody does, you know, people will still really want that validation of look what I can do, you know, individually for myself. And then one person seems to take the lead, and then they organise how they’re going to do it, and who’s having what part et cetera, and it’s not an easy thing to learn. And, and then at the end of it, they, when they, when they nail it, yeah, there’s the belly bumps and the fist pumps and the high fives, and then we have the debrief and you go, Look, nobody’s fighting you for that leadership position. And because they have this opinion, that, you know, people want my job, want my role and it’s not true.

Murray Guest  

I love that, that I can picture the light bulb coming on that someone’s in that moment of that realisation of actually this is my opportunity to to own it, to step up into that space. And how good is it when you create a space for people to to learn to grow like that?

Yeah, I just love it and I people have a bit of a dig at me you know, because I will put the mirror up and sometimes they don’t like what they see in the mirror. And I’ll say to them, you know, there’ll be times when you won’t like me but I’m fighting for your freedom, you’ll be fighting for your limitations and my intention is always for you to have what you want. You know, and and Tammy added an extra word. I used to say my mission in life is to inspire educate and support you to be do have what you want, and Tammy actually put in and feel, and so it’s now ‘be do have and feel’ what you want.

Murray Guest  

Oh, great shout out. Thank you. That’s really nice. Yeah. Can I ask why is this so important to you? Like why t,he freedom the possibilities, you know, at a chord, you know where that comes from for you as to why you are drawn to do this?

Yeah, I’ve always been interested in personal development, mine and everybody else’s. And as part of the strengths, you know, there’s that learner part. And the achiever parts are always into that. Ross and I don’t have children. So we’ve been very fortunate in that respect that we haven’t been distracted by raising kids. So we can we can travel the world do the learning. And it’s important to me, because a lot of people go through life doing things that they feel they have to do, rather than things that they want to do. And if they can get the mindset that yes, they can have it, and then get the tools to be able to follow that, then I just think it would be a much better place for everybody. Imagine this, imagine a world where everybody says, this is what I’d like, please. And it’s not taking anything away from anybody else. And somebody else says, Okay, great. Let me help you. Let me see how I can help you get that. That to me would be the ultimate.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And and I think you you’ve hinted at it already. But that mindset is so important, isn’t it, that people are doing that for themselves, creating, you know, creating that space, and that that mindset, and also for each other, encourage it from each other as well. Which leads to the blueprint for business freedom. I love this. And I’d love to talk more about it. And if you can share a bit about that, because the three P’s are fantastic.

Yeah, well, it’s a bit of an evolution. So my, when I first started my business, I focused on the process side of things. And, you know, like everybody, what will I call my business? You know, what name do I use? And I’d go to networking events, and people would say, you know, who do you work for? And I was like, uh myself, and anyway, I would help small business owners who I’ve termed them Fed Up Freddie, you know, they were stressed out, over it, and, and not really enjoying it. And I would actually help them to streamline their businesses. And then what I that’s the process side of things. And then what I found was that after a while when I’d finished the project with them, the systems and that would fall over because they didn’t know how to lead and manage their people. Yeah. And you know, and I think about Michael Gerber’s E Myth where we start out as the technician, and you know, the E Myth, the entrepreneurial myth, I don’t want to work for the idiot boss anymore. So I’m going to start my own business. Now, I become the idiot boss, but I’m a good technician. So imagine that we make surfboards, and I make the best surfboards ever, and I’m this technician, and then the business grows. So now I have to put people on and I become a manager. And now I’ve got to recruit people, I’ve got to train people, I’ve got to lead people, manage them, hold them accountable. Most people have never had any training in that area. And eventually, they get to being the business owner where they, you know, coin, he coined the phrase working on the business rather than in it. And so I found then that when people then put more people on, they didn’t know how to lead and manage them. So that became the people side of things, I just started coaching people one on one, and then did more leadership training for myself. So then we could put the leadership experiences on. And then I found that the thing that got in their way, so we had the processes right, we had the people right, but then it was the mindset that was stopping them, you know, finding out all of those limiting beliefs that we all have, you know, and I still work on mine to this day, and that became a possibility. And then I’ve been over and trained with David Bayer, and became one of his transformational mindset facilitators. And so that’s people process and possibility. And you can break that down. So the first part of it is in people is knowing yourself, and this is where you come in and help a lot of people to with their strengths is, knowing who you are, and then how you can manage around that and how you can use that to your advantage. And then knowing others, you know, so then because you can know how to communicate better with them, you can know how to interact with them, lead them motivated et cetera, and then having those good communication skills, which, you know, we can actually learn the process side of things, the smooth operations, that’s about developing the workflow for for the business, you know, what happens, by whom, and when, and then when we’ve done that, then we can work out the organisation structure in terms of roles, which is our role clarity. And then, of course, what that workflow does what, what happens by whom, and when, actually then gives us the table of contents for all of the processes because for every what we need a how, and then that’s in the documented procedures, and then.

Murray Guest  

Can I just say on this one, I was talking to a client just just this week, and we were talking about empowerment and accountability. And them going hand in hand and and for them, I think they had this challenge of some people on the team weren’t clear around what I’m being held accountable for. And the other side is well they also didn’t feel empowered. And I think that piece around role clarity, and operations is so critical and then helps that.

Yeah. And I learned the best phrase ever, from Kip McGraw when I was working with Kip, he was one of my best mentors. And, and I mentioned him quite a lot in the book. And he said this, if people don’t give you what you want, either you didn’t give good instructions, or they’re incompetent. And if they’re incompetent, is it because they’re unable or unwilling? And if they’re unable, do they need more training? So two out of three of that is our responsibility, good clear instructions, knowing what they have to do, and then training them how they have to do it. And if we’ve done all of that, and then they’re still not doing it, then it could be a systems problem, where, you know, we might not have enough staff to do something within a certain timeframe, or it’s an unwilling, and that’s a different conversation then, but it’s really helpful for managers to work out whether maybe this is me here, not them. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And leaders owning their stuff, or their contribution to the situation.

Yeah. And in the role clarity, we have the key performance indicators and key behaviour indicators, and they’re a little different to a job description in that they they tell exactly, what you have to do to what standard. So for example, if you’re a receptionist, it might be answer the phone within three rings using the company script. So they either do or do not, I’m not in favour of subjective, Oh give you a nine out of 10, or you’re an ABC, it’s either they do or they do not because we set the standard.

Murray Guest  

Yep. Yeah. And great link, I think to Brene Brown’s quote of, ‘Clear is kind.’

Shirley Dalton  

Yes. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

What I’m wondering is, do you think there’s an order that, that works for this, when you work with leaders and teams of people process possibility? Have you over the years found that you start with one more than other like, is there an order there?

Initially, it started with the process and then morphed into the people and then morphed into the possibility. These days, people will come for what they need, some people will come for the leadership, and then they’ll send their team for it. Others look at the process side of things, and then realise, oh, actually, maybe I do need a little bit more training. And then the possibility, that one comes, most people don’t knock on the door and say, Hey, give me mindset. But they might knock on the door and say, Oh, my systems are shot to pieces, help me fix those, or, you know, I’m having trouble with my staff. And so those things are more the decoration on the door.

Murray Guest  

Oh, it’s like that this is what I think I want, but you know what they need? Yeah. Fantastic. And for those listening, what we’ve got on the screen is an example of, or the outline of this three P model. And the blueprint that Shirley has developed, I’m going to make sure you can see this on YouTube as well, because it’s fantastic. It’s really clear to me, when I read through this, it’s like, okay, great, I can see what this means for me, as a leader working through this. The one that that you mentioned a couple of times, which maybe falls under the possibilities, that limiting beliefs, and how important that is, and working through that.

Shirley Dalton  

Absolutely. And that’s in the section that I call clearing the obstacles. So the first part shared vision and goals, you, you’ve got to have a vision for what you want in life. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be the business vision, you know, if you want to buy a new car, or you want to buy a new house, or you want to get a dog, I mean, that’s still a vision and a goal. So knowing that you want something, and then having some tools to create and manifest that, you know, as we’re learning more about neuroscience and the universe and how the vibration works, etc. So we’re learning now how to manifest. But you can give people a whole lot of tools. However, if they’ve got a limiting belief that they’re not even aware of, that stops them. So maybe, you know, as a young kid, you see people, your parents fighting about money, and you think, Oh, I’m never going to have any money that causes problems. So that then becomes the lens through which you look for the rest of your life. And then you become a salesperson, and you just can’t crack that million dollars in sales. There’s usually something in the background that’s causing that. And so once we can identify that, then we’ve got tools that we can change that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And because we bring our whole selves to work, don’t we?

Yeah. And you know, for me, it’s just a revelation. Like, I’ve got heaps, you know, I’ve got suitcases full of these limiting beliefs, but I work on myself, you know, constantly and seek out support from other people.

Shirley Dalton  

Yeah, and I’ve been thinking a bit about this recently, about how about when I’m stressed those limiting beliefs can get magnified.

Yes, there’s a great concept. I’ll just take that off now. There’s a great concept by Loretta Malandro, in her book called Fearless Leadership. And she talks about automatic listening. And I sort of put that into, did you hear it or make it up? Because the model goes, something happens, I have a reaction to it, I judge it, I make up a story. And then I look for evidence to predict the future. And when we get stressed, and we start making things up, and then of course, then what we do is we actually create that, you know, we’re looking for the evidence.

Murray Guest  

I love that, that’s such a great way to unpack confirmation bias, like then, yeah, how we’re doing that maybe at, you know, at a subconscious, even at a conscious level sometimes. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Now, you mentioned your book earlier. And there’s lots of books out there about leadership and leading a business. But I feel like your book is quite unique.

Yes, yes. So it’s called The Loyal Lieutenant, and how the second in command brings the CEOs vision to life. And these days, we like to use Simon Sinek’s words for the CVO, the chief vision officer, because they have the vision for where the business wants to go. They need the second in command, you know, the chief operating officer or the general manager, or just the go to person, there’s usually one in an organisation, they need that person to bring that to life. And I wrote the book, because a couple of my clients have people that were in this position, and they didn’t realise the value that they brought. Yeah, they just they were problem solvers. They got things done. And so in chapter three, we have 15 reasons why the second in command is, you know, the most important in the business. So giving them the confidence to go wow, this, you know, I do play a good role. And then in chapters four to eight, I actually go through the process system that I use with clients in going through how to do a workflow, how to create the org chart, how to develop the roles, and then how to document the procedure. So my IP is there, because I can’t serve everybody. And so that’s what’s in it. And the reason it’s called the loyal lieutenant is, when I was working with Kip McGraw, we travelled around Australia, and I was teaching the franchisees and when I got back to head office, one of the franchisees from Melbourne, wrote back and he said, Oh, you’re such a loyal lieutenant.

Murray Guest  

Oh nice. So that stuck, that stuck. Yeah. The thing that’s probably into my head is this book is valuable, no matter the size of the organisation. So I can, you know, it doesn’t matter if your organisation is 50 people or 10,000 people, there’s someone that’s that, you know, as you have articulated, so well, that’s delivering, that’s supporting, that’s bringing to life, that vision, and bringing people on board and taking that forward.

Yes. And a lot of them are just doing it naturally. You know, they just step up, and you know, the cream always rises to the top they, they’re just doing it and they don’t understand. And in fact, one of my clients, her boss read the book, because it’s only 90 pages. So I just wanted it and this is like number one, and then we’ll do one on people. And we’ll do one on possibility. But I just wanted it small, because if it’s too big, it becomes too overwhelming. Anyway, he read it on the plane, and he came back and he said, Now I know what you’re supposed to be doing. And she went, Yes, and now you know how valuable I am.

Murray Guest  

That’s so good. Because that’s what I was wondering, I thought is your desire, your aim, your vision, for the lieutenants to read it or the CEOs to read it or both?

Both. Yeah, because the CEO or the CVO then gets an understanding of how tricky they can be to work with because they do have this vision and we need it and we love it and we want it. But they don’t have that ability to articulate that into implementable action items.

Murray Guest  

Well, well, then my build on that is if the CEO is or the CVO is doing the doing of the implementation, well then that’s taking them away from what we really want them to be doing. Yeah. Great. So if you tapped into what’s your real hope for this book, what would that be?

My hope is that it actually becomes a textbook, you know that it’s like the E Myth for me, it and we have another book that I use in all of my leadership called Go for No, my that’s what my hope is that it actually becomes a resource that people use day in and day out in their offices to help them to achieve what they want, to free up as you say, the CEO, the CVO to go get the vision for the company, and then for the second in command to know yep, that’s my role. Now, this is my job to make that happen. And I think again, that goes down to role clarity. So everybody again, can get what they want.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I even think about maybe the perception that everyone needs to become the CEO, you know, that I’m working my way up the organisation, and I’m working towards this. However, that second in command is a very powerful, important role.

Yes, absolutely. And look, we don’t all have the skills or the talents to be the CEO, the CVO. I’m as jealous as anything, I would love to have that ability. And I don’t, I can get you where you want to go. But don’t ask me to see where you can go.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, fantastic. So if we want the book, if we want to get the book, where’s the best place to get it?

Just online shirleydalton.com/books.

Murray Guest  

Yep. Fantastic. Great. And can I ask, what was it like writing the book as a process? Because Tammy has written a couple of books. She’s got a new book coming out? I should, I think that’s okay to say, yes.

Shirley Dalton  

Give that a plug. I’d like to know.

Murray Guest  

Yes well it is coming out, but what I, I’ve heard from her and other people that have written books, it can feel like quite a journey. So what’s it been like for you?

I just love it. It’s, it’s easy for me. Today, we’re celebrating 12 years of weekly thoughts. So every week I’ve been putting out just a little weekly thought. And for me writing, it’s almost like a therapy. You know, I just put these things out. Structuring it was tricky for the first part, because I wrote the second part, which was just my methodology. And I looked at and I thought there’s not enough there. And so then bringing that in, but I love writing and in fact, you know, if I could get myself more time to do that, yeah, I would just love. My ideal is to be sitting, looking out over the ocean, you know, and just write, and see the dolphins and write a bit more. That’s my ultimate.

Murray Guest  

Well, that’s your possibility you can create Shirley there’s a framework for that. Absolutely. I saw some dolphins last, was it last Sunday? I think. At Newcastle beach. Magic. Yeah, they’ll just get past the waves. It was so beautiful. And of course cold. But it’s beautiful to see the dolphins of course. The other thing that I then have to ask is, when’s book two coming out? Yes. When is book two coming out? You’re really putting me on the spot here. Well let’s let’s just say, you know, big vision, you know, let’s not be, lock it down to the day. What, what’s your hope? When would you like to see that book?

I would like to see it out by the end of the year. Yeah. Six months?

Murray Guest  

That, that’s exciting. Yeah. And I love the idea that you’ve already thought about that plan of these volumes that will flow on from each other to support and do that. So yeah,

Shirley Dalton  

I have the content there. It’s just a matter of organising it because we have an online membership and and the leadership’s course that we do or the experience. So the contents there, it’s just a matter of organising it and getting it into a book.

Murray Guest  

Again, the power of habit and creating that time is so important. Yeah. So great talking about your blueprint, fantastic about your book, and I’ll make sure there’s definitely links in the show notes for people to check those out. So much insight today, but I do want to just tap into your strengths. Of course, I love talking to people about their strengths. I’ve had lots of conversations on the podcast. You’ve done your Clifton Strengths. I just want to ask, how has knowing your strengths helped you in what you do?

It’s actually given me permission to continue to learn. You know, I’m an avid learner. And I’ve so many times people have said, Shirl, you don’t need to learn anymore, you know, enough. And I think, Oh, you don’t understand. I enjoy learning. Yeah. So when I got the Clifton Strengths, and it said exactly that – you learn for the sake of learning. It was like Hallelujah. Thank you.

Murray Guest  

And that that moment that you’ve had in looking at your report and reading that is why it drives me to help people understand their strengths, because there’s a bit of a validation or resetting of who I am or what’s important to me, which I love. So it’s so good to hear that. 

Shirley Dalton  

Yeah. So what are yours? 

Murray Guest  

So I have relator, futuristic, communication, individualization, responsibility are my top five. If I was to get one of them tattooed on my body, this is one of the things I ask people, I say, If you loved one so much, which one would you get tattooed, it would be relator my number one because I love the deep authentic relationships that I have in my social life and with my clients. And it’s, I feel like I don’t get that I feel like a bit empty, a bit like your learner, if you don’t have that learning you feel a bit empty and for that it really is important to me. 

Yeah. And I can relate to the relator, too, because that’s one of my strengths. And my clients become my family. Yeah, I just love them to bits.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I also know, and this is where we can have our strengths as our weaknesses, and they can get in our way. And I know that that’s one where if I feel like I’m not getting it, I can feel a bit triggered. And I know, that’s my own stuff. But then now I’m aware of as to what that can look like.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So I have a question for you, Murray, you were saying at the beginning that you had three outcomes. One was to, you know, expose some of the work that we’re doing and one of them was to, for you to learn something. So I’m curious.

Murray Guest  

Oh, you’re curious as to what I’ve learned today, I would say the thing that that you’ve really reminded me of and learnt and that I’m going to focus on more, to be honest, is that’s jumped out is those limiting beliefs we’ve got that are part of who we are, but they can show up in so many parts of our life. And to be honest, it’s sometimes it’s the deeper work for someone, but such important work, and how I need to do that more for myself, and how I’d love to do more of that for the clients I work with as well.

Fantastic. I love that. What I found with limiting beliefs is when we listen to what people say, and when we listen to ourselves. They pop out, they just they pop out. And yeah, I had one client I was working with, and they’re in real estate and in regional New South Wales. And one of the chaps were saying, Ah, I could never be like my boss, you know, he can just go and do all of this. And you think, oh, okay, there’s one.

Murray Guest  

Well, and I think when I love what you’ve just tapped into there, which is I think a real good insight for everyone, is when someone says something, then that next bit of curiosity is so important, isn’t it? Yeah. So thank you. That’s been fantastic. And also, I love your blueprint for business freedom. And I can see how I can apply that in my own business, but also with people I talk to, but definitely directing people to read that book. Because I love it. And that’s the other thing. I feel like that level within organisations can feel a little bit lost or a little bit, what’s my value? What’s my impact? And your book helps them understand that. So Shirley, where’s the best place for people to find you online? Where would you like me to direct them to?

They can find us on social media. So on Instagram, and Facebook, I think it’s ShirleyDaltonCom or on the website, which is simply Shirleydalton.com.

Murray Guest  

Fantastic. And of course, and the link to the books will be at the website as well. I loved what you said before, though, you said 12 years of weekly thoughts. Is that right? Where can we get those?

Shirley Dalton  

You can sign up for those on our website. So under the blog, there’s a little section there where you can have them go directly into your email, or you can actually read them on the website as well.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great, because I think that that shows your, your passion for helping people understand and to learn but also your your, your discipline to bring that to life. That’s a fantastic achievement. 12 years wow.

Yeah, haven’t missed a week. It’s yeah, I still shake my head at that, it’s like wow. You know, there’s only a couple of things I’ve ever really committed to in my life Murray, that was my husband, a couple of university courses and the weekly thoughts.

Murray Guest  

Well, I’m glad Ross was at the top. All right. Well, to wrap us up, tell me please and everyone listening what is your definition of inspired energy?

Inspired energy for me is enjoying what you’re doing. When you love what you do, you have the energy, you can just keep going and going and going and going. And for me, that’s what I think inspired energy is.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I totally agree. And well, for me it is I get the energy when I get the inspiration from someone else that I’m talking to and connecting with. And then that has that flow on effect. And I’ve got that in our conversation today. Shirley, thank you so much. It’s been so great to see you and to, to connect. We have obviously have some few mutual connections that have just said to me, you need to chat and I’m so glad we have today. Thank you.

Thank you, Murray. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Really enjoyed it.

Murray Guest  

Well keep warm, it is that cold part of the year. So if anyone’s listening to this later, after middle of 2022, we are in the middle of a bit of a cold snap, which I like, I feel like you get to dress up when it’s a bit cold so but thank you again, Shirley so much and all the best for the rest of 2022.

Shirley Dalton  

Thanks Murray.

Episode 109 – Liz Dingle | Executive Coach

In this episode I speak with Liz Dingle, an executive mindset coach whose goal it is to help people lead with love rather than lead with fear.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

Liz, welcome to the podcast. I just want to say before we get into our conversation, how much I loved just chatting with you. We’re just chatting for a good 15 minutes getting to know you and the work you do. It’s been great already.Thank you. 

Liz Dingle  

Thank you. Likewise, I’ve enjoyed it already.

Murray Guest  

Well, let’s continue that going. I want everyone to learn more about the great work that you do in your business and the leaders you work with and how you help them. Before we get into that though. How are you?

Liz Dingle  

I’m good. I’m good. It’s, it’s we’re getting surprisingly very beautiful weather in Melbourne for this time of year, so very much blue skies and and quite warm. And the kids are back at school. So that’s helped as well. One is yeah.

Murray Guest  

I get that. Yes, it’s the balance isn’t it between I love the time within school holidays, and it’s nice to get back to school.

Liz Dingle  

Yeah. And my son has gone back to school loves school. So that was good. My son going back tomorrow much prefers to be at home so it’ll be a different story.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. I noticed a shift when my youngest started going to high school and really loved it. Except for a couple of teachers, which I think you know, all teachers are slightly different and whether they connect with them or not. 

Liz Dingle  

Yeah, so important. Yeah. 

Murray Guest  

I’ve got a question that popped into my head. And that is, do you feel like as a coach your coaching style and your ability as a coach, does that creep into your parenting?

I think so. Yeah, definitely. I mean, as we were talking about, I’ve only been doing this for three years. So and then two of those years was through COVID and in Melbourne, we had nearly two years of lockdown. So as a single parent, I was building my business with my boys there and homeschooling. And so we’re in a different house now. But the house we were in at the time we we all had our desks in the lounge room. And so they basically saw my business go from one client to 30 clients and they heard it so they would be on their desk doing things and then I’d get off a call and they’d go mummy was that a prospect or a client? They’d give me feedback like, you did really well. But but they learnt so much so even though they didn’t learn a hell of a lot through school over those two years. I actually think they learned so much more than that just by watching me build my business and and have to keep going along that journey. It was amazing. And they now say back to me things that I’ve said to them.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great. Great. And I think you and I are a bit similar because I’m a bit like that too. Whereas I feel like my parents didn’t talk much about the work that they did. My dad worked for a company but it was like work was something very separate. And I think there’s something empowering and really valuable for our children to learn about business and money and the conversations that we have and how valuable that is. I mean, I love doing that. The thing that pops into my head a few years ago was, so my oldest daughter, Mia, is 24. If you’re listening to this episode, Mia, Hi. And a couple of years ago she said dad right now I need a dad not a coach. Because I can slip sometimes into that asking questions and holding space but right right then in that moment, she needed me to be more of the father and than a coach and that’s something that I still I know it’s a natural way for me to be but I just got to be mindful of that. I think.

I try to. I think I tried to seed it in rather than make it overly obvious. But yeah, like, for example, this morning when we were going to school, we’re running a bit late because Jack had to be cross country training at 8am. And we were about five minutes late. And he was getting really frustrated with the traffic. We kept getting, slow people kept moving in front of us and and then he started saying because I said Oh look, there’s no point getting negative about it because it will make it worse. And he said so the whole way, he was joking he was like That’s fantastic. Look at that slow person is just coming up and this light is red and that is so good. But it was funny. Even though he was joking by the end of it when he got out he was actually not stressed at all. So it did help to take his mind off so that I think I find with my clients, lots of my clients teach my content to their children. And I always say that them if you can teach this to your children, then you understand it. Because you don’t get taught a lot of mindset in school these days. It’s probably better than it used to be but it’s still a long way away from where it should be.

Murray Guest  

Totally agree. Totally. I think it’s getting better and some of the things that I’ve heard my children talk about that they have had on development days in at school around the their mindset and how that does drive how they show up. But yeah, so feel like we can do a lot more. I want to go to your mindset and how you made that shift three years ago to start your own business because that’s a big decision and how did you how did you make that decision?

It was pretty much a split decision. I’d been studying personal and professional development for personal reasons for many, probably about 10 years leading up to that point. And I’ve been in marketing roles for 20 years. And and the more I did it, I just got to the point where I knew that it wasn’t meaningful enough for me, and that there was more for me and that I could do more than I wasn’t even though it’s achieving great things for the business and I was passionate about the people that owned the business and all that sort of thing and wasn’t actually helping anybody in a meaningful way. So and that started to play on my mind a lot. I was in retail too, fashion retail, and I found that it was, you know, the way that fashion retail has gone especially in Australia is not, it doesn’t, my values weren’t there with it. It was very aggressive. Very reactive. You know, I’ve seen people be taken down and you know, really nice, creative people. And I felt like I just kept getting all these messages that this wasn’t right. The other thing is that I’m a sole parent and the jobs I were in were massive, you know, 250 emails a day you’ve got to be on all the time you’ve got to be the first one in, last one out. I missed lunch and all that sort of stuff and they were my decisions, but that’s how I felt like I needed to behave when I was in corporate. And and I got I got a bit angry because my mom was a sole parent too. And she’d done that, she’d worked you know our whole time and she missed out on a lot because she was always working. And I thought I’m not going to do that. Because the boys were, you know, just in their primary school enjoying that. And so, it just dawned on me that if I was going to do this and based on all the information I’ve learned, I was gonna go and start my own business. I had to do it quite dramatically. I had to do something that put my back against the wall and pushed out any paradigms that were just held in there. Because otherwise I would just so easily go back and get a well paying big marketing job.

Murray Guest  

I have heard and you might know exactly where this quote comes from but around if you have a plan B you’re not setting yourself for success. Yeah, the Vikings that set the boats on fire because we’re going here and that’s what we’re doing and there’s there’s no other so I’m hearing your mindsets like I’m I’m all in.

Yeah, and I think what we don’t realize is that we’ve never failed before when our backs were against the wall, you know, if you think about when you failed or if you failed, it’s often you won’t sink, you’ll always swim, you will always fight and I don’t think we realize that when something comes up an opportunity comes up and and so I knew that in order to make something different. I had to do really different, something really different and and so what I did was I wrote down all these what I wanted, but really I was really angry and like I was like I’m not going to, I’m going to work 930 till 230, five days a week. I’m going to be at all the drop offs, all the pickups, I’m gonna be really successful. I’m gonna get lots of clients. All this stuff. I wrote down that most people would go we can’t do that you’re a sole parent, you need to be responsible. You need to have a job you need to have an income coming in. I did the opposite of all of that. And I knew it would be hard and it was, it was really hard. And but it’s so worth it. So worth it. And so I just quit. I just quit. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. 

Liz Dingle  

In a time when I couldn’t afford it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I can imagine that the voices, whether that’s friends, family, coworkers, that their stuff that they put in that situation that you’ve got to park and say Hang on, no, this is my choice, it’s where I’m going. Did you get some of that going on?

Oh big time. I basically had to avoid my mom because she’s very safe person and and other people too. I had to protect my own energy. Otherwise I would feel I would, you know their fear would feed me and and then I would go back because I could have easily gone back but it’s interesting because about five months into doing my business, I still didn’t have a client. I’d done all the training. I’d gone to Canada and got my registration and all sorts of things to do the to become a coach with thinking to results. And I came back and started my business and even though I’ve been in marketing for 20 years, I did not know how to market myself. But I felt like I should know. And so I was in stuck in this really bad paradigm where I felt as a marketer, I should know better. And so I should keep going on my own and so I wasn’t accepting any help from other marketers. And so I had nothing left. Basically after five months. I think I had 30 cents in the bank, which I saw when I did my tax return for that year. And I was about to give up and go back and get a job because I thought I’ve got no option and I didn’t want to tell anyone. I couldn’t tell anyone. Anyway, based on what we’re talking about with kids, I told my oldest son Bailey, who was 10 at the time I said to him, I think Mommy’s gonna have to go back and get a job. And this was the sort of sand in the sand, the line in the sand moment. And he turned to me and he said, you said anything was possible. And I had taught him that. Yeah, that’s great that I taught him that but he reflected that back on me. And so I was in a real bind because it was like either go back and I teach him that no, anything’s not possible. Or I have to keep going. And you know, I didn’t know whether I was gonna lose everything at that point in time. And so I decided I had to prove to him that anything was possible. And so that was the line in the sand and I just basically said, Okay, if it’s gonna get worse, it’s gonna get worse if we lose everything. We lose everything. If we lose this, you know, we were renting if we can’t pay rent it was all that sort of stuff. But it was a real it was like that moment that turned everything around for me and I got a client within the next few weeks, a really good client. I don’t think and he actually happened to be my next door neighbor. Yeah, which was not my ideal client, but he needed someone to help him and I needed money, obviously, to start this business. And so it’s amazing when you put the line in the sand, and you…

Murray Guest  

And the thing that jumps out is the inspiration that we can get sometimes from somewhere where we don’t think we’d get it, like Bailey.

Yeah. Amazing. And so all of a sudden, I was okay, you know, I mean, I was, I only had one client, but but it was enough to keep me going. And then I also had that moment where I realized I’m not an expert in LinkedIn. Even though I know how to build pages for businesses. I’m not an expert at marketing LinkedIn. And that was a really big moment. And I think for a lot of coaches I think that’s a good lesson to realize that what you want is right there in front of you, but you’re the one blocking it. And so I just decided instead of saying no to everyone, which I was very good at, done in my job as a because I’d always been in house and now I would say yes to everyone. Anyone on LinkedIn that came to me and said they wanted to help me. I would talk to them. And I ended up with three really incredible people who helped me, one who taught me about LinkedIn marketing, and now that’s the only funnel I use is outreach. I haven’t actually expand into any other social media. It’s kept me busy.

Murray Guest  

What I like the saying that I picked up somewhere along the way for my own journey of play where your clients play. And your clients, executive coaches, you work with, those teams you work with, they’re they’re on LinkedIn, and that makes sense to be on there. And as you said, you’re getting those connections, those, you know, really valuable connections when we were talking before we started about some of the people you’re working with so good. And it’s working.

Yeah. LinkedIn is amazing. And at first of all, I started off getting heads of departments. So I started at that level. Yeah, because that’s where my confidence was at when I went well there, but really what I wanted to do was coach CEOs and C suites. But I didn’t have the confidence when I started, I thought, why would a CEO want to speak to me I wasn’t a CEO in my past, you know, in my corporate career so it took me a while to get there. But now I only coach CEOs and and C suites. And I’ve found that now that I’m there, and I’ve got over all those worries. They’re so much more responsive than the next level down. And so that’s really surprised me too. So it’s all belief. You know, it was a belief that I had in my mind that CEOs won’t have time, well CEOs have more time than the people in the heads of positions. You know.

Murray Guest  

Well, to build on that, that in the work that you do you help the CEOs find that time as well.

Yeah, yeah. And it’s the CEOs that are drawn to me who are interested in deeper work. They’re interested in, they do they have empathy, they care about other people. They want to make things better, they’re not just there to get the sales for the business. And so those sort of, sadly, those sort of CEOs don’t get drawn to me, which probably need my help more than more than anyone. My goal is really to, I’ve decided that if I can help more CEOs, then that’s going to have a much greater impact. Because they can go on if I can really impact a CEO, they can impact a whole business. And then by impacting that whole business, that that impacts that has a massive flow on effect with families and communities and everything like that. So that’s where I stick to now.

Murray Guest  

So you’ve talked a lot about mindset, this mindset that you needed, in your journey, also the training you’ve done. In essence, when you’re working with a CEO, what are you doing with them to help them around understanding their own mindset and shift that mindset like what does that look like?

Well, what I’m trying to do is help them see that they’ve got a greater potential. So I love to take successful people and make them realize that their success is minute, you know, it’s so much smaller than what it potentially is. So the program that I do, which is thinking into results, takes them helps them through those steps of understanding, what is my potential, like, what is my overall potential? So this is what I know and do now. But what if I took all of what I know and do and brought it up to the surface? And, and, and really reach for something much bigger. And I usually do it through a goal. So setting a goal that is way beyond what they’ve ever thought was possible.

Murray Guest  

Right. And the thing that’s jumping out to me is those limiting beliefs that we have as adults, and I’m assuming you’re coming across some of those as you work with these leaders. 

Liz Dingle  

Absolutely. Big time.

Murray Guest  

So how do we break those limiting beliefs?

So generally through repetition, so first of all, you’ve got to realize you’ve got it. You’ve got a limiting belief. So we talk about paradigms. So paradigms are a multitude of habits. So you’ve got a health paradigm, and within that health paradigm, you’ve got maybe 100 different habits that make up that paradigm. So for people what I tried to do is help them first of all, they might realize I’ve got a problem with my just say that they might have, they might be a CFO, and they want to go to CEO, for example. So they’ve got a problem there because they can’t take that jump sometimes it’s quite hard for them to take that last step into CEO. So that’s the parent they’ve got this paradigm around that but it’s not it’s not about changing the whole paradigm. It’s about understanding what are the habits within that are actually holding you back. So for example, something might be a lot of a lot of times with my clients, they’ve realized that their networking, the way they network is completely wrong. So they might, it might dawned on them that I don’t even have someone that’s in my network that’s done what I want to do, who I aspire to, I might have a lot of colleagues that are around us, you know, the same as me, and some people that really inspire me, but I’ve actually never, I haven’t got someone that you know, in the industry that I want to be in that has actually done what I want to do and so that’s just a matter of okay, let’s let’s find who those people are and reach out to them and see whether there’s an opportunity to connect or let’s look at different networks that you can join and networks is one that’s just come out because I think when you get to that level, you do need to you do need to network correctly.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and I totally agree the insight there around that network going beyond your industry or the let’s say the same same of other people that have been on similar journeys and if you want to do something different, where you’re going to get the insight, the experience the knowledge from someone that something a bit different. And if I think about things like improvement in efficiencies in business, continuous improvement strategies, what works there is let’s look at what’s happening in other areas of other businesses, other industries, other perspectives are bringing that in and it works the same for ourselves on an individual level.

Yeah, absolutely. And so and I think the work I do, I’m able to get quite personal with my clients as well. And that’s what they like, because I can I think what they’ve said is that I can see a perspective that they may not necessarily be able to see so I can give them a different perspective and, and even though most people come to me with a professional goal, they always gain more personally.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. And isn’t it so good when we can help people on that holistic? Yeah, I’m with you, because I feel like with my clients, and we might be they’re talking about some professional goals, but then we’re talking about relationships outside of work or their health or something else that they want to improve in in part of their life. And if that changes, there’s a flow on effect back professionally as well.

Absolutely. I say that I honestly believe that you can’t have professional growth without personal development. And I don’t think there’s enough of it. From a senior level all the way down, just realizing that if you can just work on the individual and help them with one part of their you know makeup to become conscious about one part of their you know, behavior or belief system that can change everything for them. And so, you know, lots, lots of businesses have very high turnover, because they’ll get someone who’s got the perfect resume. It’s got all the skills that they need, and then they’ll come and then I’ll do four to six months. And then by the end of it, they’ve found something in them, that doesn’t work. And it’s usually a personal trait that doesn’t fit with the business, but if no one works on that personal trait with that person, they don’t know. And then the business gets rid of them. And so that person goes on to do it again, in another business and they’re like sitting there going I don’t understand why I can’t get ahead. And then businesses saying I don’t understand why we can’t find someone that’s like this, that if they just you know did some mindset coaching on that person and helped them gain their conscious awareness about how they behave, how they react to things, what their belief systems are, they could just turn that person into the most valuable person.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, gotcha. The thing that I think’s important that’s popping into my head at the moment too Liz is that and I want to get your perspective of course. Is that what you’re talking about is not all rainbows, unicorns, and Skittles. When it’s like when you’re talking about the trip to school this morning and about, hey, everything’s great. Yeah, mindsets more than that, isn’t it?

So much more. And it is a roller coaster ride and I say that all my clients when they come in, don’t expect this to be easy, because we’re talking about you know, most of my clients are 40 plus. I think it’s great when someone under 40 comes to me because I think they’ve got a lot of foresight and it’d be good for them. But 40 plus, the 40 plus years of thinking and acting the same way we’re gonna have to undo that. And if you can’t see it, some people come to me and they can see a paradigm they’ve got, you know, some I’ve had CEOs come to me and say, you know, I’ve still got this belief that I’m not worthy. Yes, you know, I’m fine in front of everyone. I’m the most confident person but I’m underneath I’m dying here. You know, I can’t, I want to shift this feeling out of me. And so, it’s definitely there to be to be helped through and I don’t think how far however far you get up in the in the rungs. I don’t think that those those things stick around until you decide you’re going to work on them.

Murray Guest  

Powerful though, when someone’s got that realization, as you said, like then we’ve got something to work with.

Liz Dingle  

Well it’s good when they have because there’s, it’s good when they have because that got there. But it also means that they’ve been there for a long time. And so they’ve worked on it for a long time and they still haven’t been able to shift it so whether they gonna be still capable of shifting it that’s going to take could take longer. Whereas for someone who doesn’t know what their limiting belief or behavior is, they just know that they’re getting they’re not getting the result they want. If you know sometimes they can just have this conscious moment of oh shit, excuse me. That’s what I’m doing wrong, and they just shift it and then they start to get the results. I’ll give you an example. I had a client who was very senior in the business but reported to the CEO and wanted to become a CEO, but really did not get along with the CEO at all in fact, felt bullied by the CEO. And like, just like, and his whole mindset was around the problems of the CEO. And so one of my lessons is called the impression of increase and the impression of increase states that no matter who you’re talking to you should always make someone feel better about themselves after talking to you, that’s your goal. That’s your intention in the day. So because it’s all based on law of cause and effect, so whatever it is, but whatever you put out comes back. So if you put out good energy to someone because you love them, or you really like someone at work you put out really good energy to them all the time. That’s great. But if you’ve also got a few people that you don’t like at work and you can’t stand them and you’re putting out negative energy to them either verbally or mentally, well, then you’ve got a mix of negative and positive energy going out from you, and that has to come back in and not necessarily from some person that can come back in any area, it can come back in your personal life. It’s got to come back. It’s just the law. Yeah. And and so he he just had this like lightbulb moment that he was putting out all this negative energy to the CEO about what the CEO was doing wrong and how he wasn’t any good. And he was talking about it to his wife, to friends. And it really wasn’t like him. He wasn’t that sort of person. But it got to him so much. And he just stopped. He just stopped it and and so he changed his behavior and he decided. So I get my clients to do, because this can often be a major problem for many people. So I got him to write down 10 things he liked about the CEO. And he had to read that list every day and every time he felt something bad about him, he had to write down that list and he wasn’t allowed to talk about him to anyone. He just had to let it go. And so this took a while for him to get good at that. And eventually he did and his relationship completely changed with the CEO. The CEO didn’t change. He’s still the same. But the CEO at one point said to him how good their relationship had become. And so they’d improved there and then in the end, he got head hunted for another role somewhere else. So he learned that lesson. The Universe didn’t need to teach him that anymore. So it took him somewhere else because the CEO wasn’t about to move on. So you know, lots of lessons like that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and I love that story for lots of reasons. I love the insight around that negative energy that’s going out that’s gonna come back in some form, whether it’s in that role professionally, personally somewhere, but it’s, as you said, it’s out there and it’s coming back. And I think for anyone listening to this conversation, think about when you’ve got that relationship with someone, what you’re owning, because what I hear from that, is that that leader you’re working with, it’s like, what can I own?

Yeah, what and you have to own all of it, you actually own all of it, which is very hard. And I guess that’s what mindset coaching is all about, taking responsibility for you. Even though there might be things in your environment that aren’t right or good. It is taking full responsibility for you. And when you do take full responsibility for you the outside actually ends up changing. That’s when we get, that’s what, I think that’s where we all go wrong. We expect something of the outside to change and then we’ll change. Yeah. Doesn’t work like that.

Murray Guest  

Can I just say the other thing that jumped out to me too, and in that great example is, this, tell me, I’m sure I’m aligned here. It wasn’t about those two people becoming best friends. No, no, it was about respect and professionalism.

Yeah. Yeah. And it was about realizing that I, my energy is getting pulled into this. And I’m the only one that can pull my energy out of it. He doesn’t have to change like it’s a decision. He doesn’t have to change. I do. And when I change, everything changed. I’ve got another quick example that I’ll give you. I had another client who came to me and she felt like her boss bullied her too. She didn’t like him. She couldn’t stand him. And so I got her to do the same exercise. And she hated me for making her do it. She couldn’t get to 10, pick 10 things about him, but she did it. And she did it for quite a while. And he still kept being mean to her and she kept going and kept coming back to me. And kept going. And within about 30 days. I don’t know, maybe it was a little bit longer. I’m not sure but she finally accepted that this is how I have to deal with it. This is working. This is how to deal with it. He quit. Out of nowhere, he got headhunted. And all of a sudden he was gone. And it was almost like once she had accepted that it was her, that energy didn’t affect her anymore. And she was okay. He didn’t need to be there anymore. So he got head hunted and he was gone. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and I’ll be really open, Liz, I reckon that once that lesson’s happened for her then the universal said okay, this person can move on.

That’s exactly right. And that’s what happens with people they keep going from job to job but they’re actually getting the same energy on a different, in a different body or brand. They seem to get the same result over and over, and I can see it.

Murray Guest  

I think the thing too, I think that’s important to mention is this is not talking about unacceptable behavior in the workplace and saying that’s acceptable, is it?

No, not at all. Not at all. It’s about it’s about it’s all it’s not about what’s going on outside. It’s all about what is what am I allowing to affect me, my energy so when you wake up in the morning, you’re going directly to that person. You don’t want to see them or and so you can just work on your behavior regardless of what is happening. Your feelings.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so great connecting with you and a like minded passionate person around coaching and helping people develop from that holistic approach. It’s, thank you so much. I do want to ask you a couple more questions before we wrap up. I think you’ve covered this but I just want to be really clear. Who do you really love to work with?

I love to work with CEOs and their teams, their senior management teams, because I just think there’s so much power in being able to help that person and the culture. I think that can help change the culture of the business, if I can get the CEO and he’s his or her whole team, talking about the same things and having some breakthrough moments themselves.

Murray Guest  

And from what you’ve been explaining earlier about the way you work, it sounds like it’s real partnership too, in that. It’s not like hey, Liz comes in for the song and dance show once and off you go. No, that doesn’t work. 

No, I say this is not something that’s quick fix. It’s really not. So looking at doing a, like for example, I might do a three day workshop where I present all the learning or the lessons, but then I’ll go back and do a six month coaching with the team and the individuals as well, because that’s the level and I think six months is good, for six months and then maybe a year, it’s a good amount of time to be able to make some really good headway. And you do see it in your results and they see it in their results. And it’s very, very powerful.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I totally agree. And we’ve say that before we start recording something about those partnerships that that’s an ongoing journey, and then that connection. So.

Honestly, I believe in helping people lead with love. That’s my goal. Help people lead with love rather than lead with fear. And it’s really the word love incorporated is a hard sort of thing to say, people don’t often, people don’t really put those two together. But if we could put it together more and more, I think we would be we would have a much better corporate environment.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And whilst COVID has had its obviously some real challenges, I think it’s highlighted that this is even more important.

It’s a real movement. So for, for CEOs looking for something that’s personal and deeper for their senior management team, where they want them to actually grow as individuals as well as professionally. That’s what, that’s this is really got all that involved in it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And you’re not working just with people in Melbourne are you?

Working with clients in Perth, Sydney, South Australia. So yeah, it’s all over. So it’s Australia, though. At this point in time, it’s Australia.

Murray Guest  

I have done some work with clients I deal with a few overseas and some it was late at night and Liz, I’m not a night person.

Well, I’m not either and with, you know, sole parent, two kids who are primary school and just entered high school, I just find that I think you’ve got to have your boundaries. Remember why you did have your own business. And if it’s to be with your kids and your family, then you need to really stick with that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I still need that reminder sometimes because in all the busyness being caught up, can slip back into that sort of real sort of, I even sometimes call it an employee mindset I can slip into which not to say it’s a bad thing, but I can realize is it’s it’s losing the balance and the reason why I created this, so yeah.

Yeah, yeah, but it’s it can be challenging. I mean, you’ve got to do get the work done too.

Murray Guest  

So if anyone wants to find out more about you, connect with you online, where’s the best place to go and do that?

So I’ve got a website called executiveexcellencecoaching.com.au.

Murray Guest  

I love that name, by the way.

Thank you, and or they can look me up on LinkedIn and just direct message me.

Murray Guest  

Great. And I know you share some really cool stuff on LinkedIn. So please connect with Liz.

Liz Dingle  

I love content. I love writing from the heart. And I get really good feedback.

Murray Guest  

Great. And I need to ask you, of course what is your definition of inspired energy?

My definition of inspired energy is when you come from an authentic, really authentic place and, and you you speak to people heart to heart. That’s, I love that. That’s what I do. And absolutely love, love it when I can do it and see others do it as well.

Murray Guest  

Well, I feel like we’ve done that today. Yeah, I feel like I got to know the real you. So thank you so much.

Thank you. I’ve really enjoyed it, Murray. loved it.

Murray Guest  

Well, Liz, honestly, I’ve loved getting to know you, love hearing about what you’re passionate about in the work that you do. Please everyone connect with Liz at executive excellence coaching.com.au but also on linkedin. Thank you very much. Thank you clarity is important. All right. Great chatting, and I’m sure we’ll talk again, all the best for the next few months.

Liz Dingle  

Thank you so much.

Murray Guest  

Thank you.

Episode 108 – Kent Weed | Entertainment Producer & creator of Taming Your Monkey Mind

In this episode I speak with Kent Weed, a powerhouse producer and director who is also extremely passionate about meditation and the full spectrum of health and wellbeing.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

Kent, so good to see you, again. We met it was in Bali, I think.

Kent Weed  

Yeah. Three years ago or 2019 I believe it was.

Murray Guest  

Isn’t amazing how with COVID, time just feels weird.

Kent Weed  

Yeah, it does get kind of compressed. I think.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. I was talking to a client the other day as well. And I said, Oh, we did that thing last year. And they said no, that was two years ago and ah, that’s it’s just it’s sort of been messing with me a little but I do remember meeting you in Bali at one of the Afest events, which bit sad they haven’t been running, obviously, but I think there may be one happening this year. We’ll see what happens. 

I heard Jordan is is coming up.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Have you? Have you been to Jordan?

Kent Weed  

I have not. No, I have not so have you?

Murray Guest  

No, no, it’s definitely on the list for me one of those places that when I look at it, and I think about the history and just the stories that go with what it would be like, I definitely want to go there at some stage in my life. And it could be Afest, who knows?

Kent Weed  

I love it how there’s opportunities for us to go and explore places that we wouldn’t normally venture out to see because of like minded people or you know, events that happen so yeah, that’s a great opportunity for us.

Murray Guest  

Ah, I totally agree. And, and for those that don’t know A Fest is a fantastic event for, as Kent said, for like minded people to learn to grow, to share to connect in some amazing locations. I got to go to Costa Rica a few years ago for an A fest down there and that that was a great trip. Love that. It’s a long trip from Australia, though, I must admit. 

Kent Weed  

Oh, my gosh, I can only imagine.

Murray Guest  

How have you been? How’s life going for you in 2022?

It’s, it’s a whirlwind right now. A lot going on. We are in the middle of shooting Hell’s Kitchen seasons, 21 and 22 which is very time consuming and very, very blessed to be able to do a show that’s lasted that many seasons, and it’s very creative. So it’s a good outlet for me to express my creativeness and, and I enjoy it because I feel like I’m helping people, you know, achieve their dreams. So someone’s gonna be a head chef for Gordon Ramsay. And that’s a that’s a big deal for those who work their their arses off and, and try and make it in a very tough environment, especially restaurants have suffered a lot in the last couple of years. And so yeah, I feel very blessed to do that. And then of course, I just launched my meditation and mindfulness program. My website liveyourpurpose.com is up and running now. So there’s a whole new venture going on about helping be of service to to others and help them live their best lives.

Murray Guest  

Definitely want to talk about the app and want to talk about what that looks like what that feels like, what that’s all about. But 21, 22 seasons of Hell’s Kitchen, help me understand in the world of reality TV that must be one of the longest running shows, mustn’t it? Must be up there.

It definitely is. I believe it is the longest running show on Fox, one of the major networks. I think survivor probably has done a couple more seasons than us but you can count on one hand how many shows have lasted that long or had that many seasons.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And how do you keep it interesting, how do you keep it engaging? Do you think for so many seasons?

Yeah, it’s a good question. You know, the thing is that you want to not stray too far away from the format because you know, you have your loyal fans, but to your point, you want to keep it fresh and entertaining to them. So we are always working for new ways to do challenges, new ways to test the chef’s, new ways to present the challenge to them that are something they wouldn’t expect neither the chef’s nor audience so it’s, it’s it’s, it’s a team effort. And it’s fun. It’s fun to always create new ways to do things. I mean, there’s some tried and true challenges that we always do like blind taste test. And but how we present it, how we introduce it is always fresh and new. Half the fun is creating those ways to do that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I’m feeling like there’s a playing in the gray area on the edges is really important where we start to stretch it a little bit. So we’re connecting with what it’s about. But as you said, it’s a bit new and a bit different. And I love the show. I’ve been watching. I think it’s a great show, by the way.

Thank you so much. Appreciate it. The key, really is to make everything purposeful for what the chefs are doing. And not just do it for entertainment sakes. It has to have a purpose and a reason behind it. And and we work closely, you know, with my partner Arthur and the team, the Hell’s Kitchen, creative team, the producers and Gordon to make sure that that is, you know, our number one focus.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yep. Now I need to ask if it’s okay, of course. Gordon has a reputation of his fiery demeanor at times. I think he’s an amazing chef and he has been down to Australia for Master Chef and different things as well. What’s he like to work with?

You know, he’s a great collaborator. He is you know, I compare him to many professionals who are very intense when they’re in their atmosphere. And you know, when they train people and have expectations and you step into this live environment where everybody has to do their job and someone messes up. That’s why, that’s his passion coming out. But, you know, when he’s not in the kitchen, he’s not doing his job, he’s, you know, he’s just like you and me, he’s very approachable, and, you know, very kind and considerate and, you know, I think everybody that’s ever met him outside of the kitchen would agree with me and just general you know, just a joy to be around.

Murray Guest  

Yeah I watched, there’s another series he did, where he goes traveling and to different cultures, I think was on Nat Geo, and trying different foods and the warmth that he has and the warmth that he has in Kitchen Nightmares as well, like that care and warmth does still come through.

Kent Weed  

Exactly. You know, that’s that’s his true his true personality.

Murray Guest  

So, how do you manage COVID in 2022, with running the show?

Yeah, that’s a really good question. You know, because of all the unions that we have to deal with on the show, and this goes for films and, and other TV shows alike, you know, there are a lot of safety requirements that are put in place. And so there’s social distancing still, there’s mask wearing. There’s constant testing, everybody is tested on the set seven days a week, we all get tested every single day. And just to make sure that we don’t, you know, suffer any, you know, shutdowns or any, you know, setbacks. We even have, you know, backups of personnel to replace people if someone does test positive. So there’s a lot of measures that are put in place it’s a it’s a bit of a pain, we, you know, in producing the show, you have to, you know, be creative and create workarounds, when you have to deal with a situation where, okay, we can only have x amount of diners and they can’t be within six feet of each other and, and, and, and, and so, we’re working around that and that’s limited some of the creativity that we’ve been able to do, you know, we couldn’t do the massive you know, groups of you know, audience like we’ve done in the past and due to some of the rules or requirements that we have to face but it doesn’t I don’t think it’s affected the show or the, the the entertainment value or the experience that the viewer will get from the show.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and I think going back to one of your first points around how the restaurant industry, hospitality, entertainment has been hit so hard in these last two years, the show plays such an important part to then support that industry, create those opportunities, create that work for people so I’m so glad it’s happening. And how are you feeling about the future of where this is going as well? What’s it look like for you? Are you, I’m just trying to think, are you like very much immersed in the right here and now or is there a bit of that right here and now plus, okay, what do we want to do in the future as well? Like, what’s that balance look like?

Kent Weed  

In respect to the TV show today? 

Murray Guest  

Yeah.

Yeah, I live in very much of the present. You know, I deal with where we are right now. I don’t have any you know, thoughts of like, you know, doing seasons 23, 24, 25, season 30. I mean, if it happens, great, you know, and that’s all good. But you know, every, every TV show has an expiration date. So I’m just feeling very fortunate to be able to continue producing this show. Yeah, right now you know, and you know, we’ll see it does really well in the ratings for Fox, it continues to rate well for them in a time when shows are not rating well. And so, you know, as long as it does that, and long as the viewers still want it, then we’ll keep doing it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, it’s funny. There’s been on the news in Australia this week about Neighbors, I’m sure you’ve heard of neighbors as a TV show. I’d like to think you have. 

Kent Weed  

I haven’t. 

Murray Guest  

So neighbors is is like an iconic Australian, like a better word sitcom. It’s been around on TV, but it’s where people like Kylie Minogue started their career. And Margot Robbie. 37 years it’s been on TV. And so there’s the conversations at the moment about does it continue because of ratings and advertising and all of those challenges. So it’s interesting you say that, because, yeah, it must be hard to keep it going sometimes.

Kent Weed  

Yeah, it is. I also think there’s, you know, there’s more than just the basic ratings when it airs, I mean, because this show, you know, airs in 160 countries, 165 countries. It has a lot of you know, longevity. I mean, there’s their seasons, you know, that haven’t even aired in many countries. I think in the Philippines, they’re only up to season eight. So they’ve got a long way to go to catch up. And as long as there’s profits to be made for for the network, and the owners of the show, and I think that it’ll also help with longevity. There was a show called The Biggest Loser for a while that stayed on the air for many, like three or four more years after the ratings were falling because it was still generating a lot of money for the network, with all the ancillary business they had going on with it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah I understand. Now something I’m intrigued about. So how long have you and Arthur been in partnership for in business?

Kent Weed  

20 years. We started in 2001. And, yeah, so we’ve had a partnership for 20 years. And so I stepped aside as president of the company a couple years ago, it’d be three years in April. We continue our relationship and we continue to do Hell’s Kitchen together and American Ninja Warrior together and obviously American Ninja Jr. So those are my babies. Those the shows that we started together, that Arthur and I created together. So I, I plan to do those shows as long as they’re around.

Murray Guest  

So tell me what’s the what would you attribute the success in the partnership because 20 years in partnership and business is a long time. How have you been able to keep doing that?

Kent Weed  

Well, 20 years in any relationship is a long time and, you know, as business partners, you tend to spend a lot more time together than you do your spouse or your mates. So I think that the key is, you know, respect for each other, respect for what each other does. And, you know, we had a very good, you know, rapport in the beginning and respect for each other. But you know, Arthur is the writer producer, I’m the director producer, so we complement each other very well too. And I think it’s a combination of those elements that really has been, you know, you know, attributed to the long lasting relationship that we’ve had and the success of it too, you always had the same mindset about you know, what we want to do and, and not just creating good shows, but executing them as well. We’re both very hands on producers so we get our hands, we’re getting dirty, and we’re right in there with all the other producers on the show. So which is not typical for a lot of executive producers. So.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and from what I’ve heard, a little in the industry, you can get some executive producers that have that very stand back approach where there’s a bit of check in or an investment but not that day to day. Whereas I like what you’re saying, like you’re really in there because it’s your baby, you want to make sure it’s successful and aligned with your vision. And the thing that stands out to me, Kent, so I’m a strengths based coach, working with companies and leaders around flexing their strengths and what I hear from you there is your strengths and Arthur’s strengths coming together in a really great collaborative partnership.

Kent Weed  

Yeah, I we really believe that we complement each other in that regard. And we’re able to divide and conquer as well. You know, when we’re doing projects, you know, I can go off and do one aspect of the show and he can deal with the other aspect. Hell’s Kitchen right now I deal with a lot of the style and the design and the look and the logistics. And Arthur deals with, you know, the writing and how we’re going to how we’re going to phrase everything how we’re going to set up the challenges and how we’re going to setup the different aspects of that.

Murray Guest  

Fantastic. And what I need to ask what’s happening with American Ninja Warrior this year?

Kent Weed  

Lots of new obstacles, new courses. I’m very excited about it. I just had a meeting yesterday talking about Las Vegas, the finals courses, and what to do. We’ve been testing new obstacles for the last three months and getting very close. We’re building new things and we plan to shoot the first set of episodes in San Antonio in March, in the middle of March. And then April will be in Universal Studios for the regional finals and in Las Vegas again in May. We go back on the air in June.

Murray Guest  

What’s the temperature like in San Antonio in March, still going to be pretty warm? Oh no it should be okay.

Kent Weed  

It’s spring I think it’s going to be mild and we’re going to be inside the Alamo dome so I don’t know if the outdoor temperature really bothers us too much. We’ve kind of migrated to indoor venues in the last few years. For a number of reasons. One being you know now we can shoot during the daytime because everything else you know prior to that was always shot overnight. And by shooting during the daytime, you know, everybody’s especially the athletes are much you know, they appreciate it very much because they can get proper rest and they’re not trying to get all you know, turn their clocks around and try and be pumped up and ready to perform in the middle of the night. So, Yeah, and again, that’s something that I’ve watched with the kids over the years and and all those scenes, you know, being shot at night with a dark background. Interestingly, and this is just popped in my head, Kent, my wife and I were out on our bicycles for a ride last Saturday. And we went on a new path that we hadn’t been before, and some houses, backyards, sort of back up to this bike path. And in this backyard of this house was this obstacle course that was clearly built for an adult not not for children. And I’m just, I’m loving and I want to acknowledge the impact that program made for that health and well being, getting people moving, creating obstacle courses in their backyard from scaffolding through the wood or whatever they could find. I mean, it’s been amazing.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I feel so blessed to be part of something that it has become a movement, a grassroots movement. And I’ve said it many times it’s the TV show that gets kids away from video games, and parents off the couch and families playing together again in the backyard, and you know, really instills values that that are lacking in today’s society, in today’s culture. So, yeah, I’m very proud of that. And I’m very proud of the you know, the message that the show delivers, which is very wholesome and family driven. And it’s about you know, perseverance and resilience and overcoming obstacles in your life to compete on the hardest obstacle course in the world. And so those are the, it’s all about the stories we tell.

Kent Weed  

Yeah, and some of the, again, I want to salute and acknowledge the the editing and the background stories of the competitors and, and connecting with the heart of the people, where they, what they’ve been through to get to the point to then show up and be at their best. Yeah, looking forward to watching more of that. I want to ask you because I think we’re similar ages, I think you might be a touch older than me Kent. You’re probably probably fitter though. How’s your how’s your body holding up and what are you doing to sort of keep that longevity in your body? Yeah, no, thank you. I thank you very much. Very kind of you. I feel great. I often talk about it. I am very blessed to be able to wake up in the morning without an ache or pain, no stiffness. And I really attribute it to you know, my lifestyle change, you know, the last decade and that little over 10 years ago I started getting really interested in you know, health and wellness and more specifically biohacking. And biohacking what you can do to to upgrade your brain and to optimize your body for longevity. And so I you know, I basically started researching and studying everything I could about it right around the same time I was researching what I could about meditation because I was not just my body I wanted to, you know, figure out how to optimize my soul and my spiritual side as well. And so that that led me to, you know, Dave Asprey and the whole bulletproof and biohacking conferences and most recently, Ben Greenfield who wrote a book called Boundless and a number of other people. So I have lots of toys in my house, everything from an infrared sauna to Juve light panels to beamer mats to Healy wrist guards, I have lots of lots of toys by plate. I mean, if I look around, I could probably find more. I have so many, I’ve tried many things and and what I’ve been able to, to figure out that ultimately, it’s a combination of mind, body and soul. So what I mean by that is, it’s a combination of my mindful practices in my meditation, in conjunction with you know, supporting that physically with, you know, certain HIIT programs, BRT training, utilizing the infrared sauna, and light house and cryo therapy and all these elements that that really helped keep me young and make me feel younger than my age. And it’s actually going to be one of the courses that I launch in the spring my hope to launch this in late April, which will be on liveyourpurpose.com because I really think that’ll so many people can benefit from benefit from the experience and knowledge that I’ve spent, you know, over a decade, you know, amassing and, you know, and, and I see so many people like me that are, you know, struggling with, with, you know, pains and aches and backs and knees and all that stuff.

Murray Guest  

Before you went down this journey 10 years ago, what was life like for you? What do you think you were like as a human before then?

Kent Weed  

Well, I think I was a lot like every, not everybody, but a lot like most people are. I was going about my daily routine. I was kind of just doing the same thing. Lather, rinse, repeat, and not really paying attention to what I was doing and how it affected myself and others. Kind of, I always equate this to like being tapped into the matrix. And not really, you know, noticing things and paying attention to things and you know, when people say, oh, you know, those aches and pains or the allergies or this or that that’s all that’s just because of age and, you know, and, and, and when I what I realized is that, you know, I really wanted to be more and I had this kind of, you know, itching, kind of knawing thought, you know, thing in the back of my head and all telling me there’s there’s more to this, there’s more to life, there’s more, you know, when what am I here for what’s my purpose, you know, and and that’s where that that’s where the launch of studying and diving into all the research that it started. And, you know, I physically I was, you know, I had chronic back pain, I had sciatic issues, I had terrible allergies, you know, I was dealing, you know, with some alcohol dependency problems. I was, you know, that’s how I dealt with, you know, my stress and my anxiety and my emotions, you know, a lot of us deal with in different ways, and it’s going to manifest some way or another, whether it’s physically or through other other elements. You know, some people use drugs or alcohol, some people, you know, do other kinds of addictions and, but these, this, this lack gets manifested in many different ways in different people and everybody’s different.

Murray Guest  

And cannot and just, I want to validate an assumption here, the entertainment industry prior to you going down this path 10 years ago, and maybe what it’s still like for lots of people, high pressure, high expectations, lots of work, long hours, and not eating or drinking the best. Is that about what it’s like?

Kent Weed  

It certainly can be and it was for me, it was for, as it is for many people. I don’t work any less now. I mean, Hell’s Kitchen, our days could be 16 or 18 hours still. And there’s still craft services. You know, on the side that have tons of really bad food for you. Which I stay away from now. I don’t venture to do that. I’d make my own celery and carrots and cucumber slices and eat you know, what I think is healthy and what I, what fuels my body better. I make sure I don’t drink coffee when I’m working long hours. Even though I like coffee. I found that when you work long hours, you get way too many highs and lows with coffee and the crashes are not productive when you need to be on your game. So but I don’t think that’s just you know, necessarily, you know, related to just the entertainment industry. 

Murray Guest  

I know, you’re exactly right. Yeah.

Kent Weed  

And many professions, so many people whether you’re just a busy mom or a busy dad, you know you feel stress or you you feel stressed because you want to spend more time with your family but you need to do this for work and you need to make money you need to make house payments and bills and so the stress is something we put on ourselves. And there’s many opportunities to be stressed in the work that we’re doing now and the work I’m doing on the show. There’s many opportunities that things go wrong. And you know, when you have a different mindset about it, if you look at it through a different perspective, you’re much more able to deal with those challenges and come up with resolutions. Yeah, in a much quicker and more rational way. Instead of operating from your amygdala back here. You operate from your frontal cortex, which is the rational side of thinking, you know, it’s normal for us to want to go do this, you know, the fight or flight and you know, the lion attacking, everything is going wrong. We have to run we have to hide we have to jump and that’s you know, our DNA is programmed that way, but you can reprogram your brain you can reprogram your thoughts and that’s just like anything through constant repetition and consistency. No different than if you work out of the gym. You know if you if you go to the gym once a month or once a week that’s not going to create the same kind of results as if you just did it 10 minutes a day, same thing with an instrument you know, you get much more benefit, and much more growth and progress when you do it consistently and repetitively.

Murray Guest  

When you look back in your journey of investing more in your mind, body and soul. What do you think has been one of the things or a couple of things that’s been a real step change for you when you’ve started doing that as a habit? You went, Oh, wow, I can see I can feel the difference that’s made. What were some of the key things for you?

Kent Weed  

Well, there’s a story that I share with you, which is, you know, when I first started this journey, there was there was a person at work that I I never I didn’t like seeing them at work because they were always complaining and they were, you know, it just they were not pleasurable to be around, you know, and and so, and it always bother me, and I would go home and tell my wife, oh my god, this person is constantly complaining and they’re always, they’re demanding this and they want this and they want you know, they just, and after really, literally after about a month of meditating, I started noticing change. And I said, Well, you know, this person is not so bad anymore. They’re not so mean and they’re not, their not seem to be quite as mean and they seem to be, you know, not such a bad person after all, and I and I said well, you know, they must have, they’ve really changed and then it occurred to me that they hadn’t changed, I did. So when I say you change your perspective on something when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. When quoting Wayne Dyer, it’s really true. And, and the big revelations for me was that things that bother me about my wife things that bother me about my kids, things that bother me about just daily routines like someone cutting you off, someone doing this, first of all, they didn’t seem to happen as much as they did before because the messaging, the messaging that I was throwing out to God or the universe, whatever your diety is, was different. And what you send out comes back to you. And because I was sending out more positive vibes and more you know, acceptance and, and surrender to things that go on and that this is the world is chaos and universe is chaos, and when you just accept things and surrender to them and deal with them in the moment, rather than try and fight and push back. It’s much easier to deal with and so I became a better father I became a better husband I become a better boss, a better partner, a better, you know, co worker. And, and those were the biggest changes that I noticed.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And there’s a word in there that jumped out to me, Kent, and that was acceptance. And I think for some people when they hear about that the shifts in mindset and approaches and and potentially putting some negative labels around positive psychology, about everything’s rosy, you know, Skittles, rainbows and unicorns, and that’s what I’m not hearing from you.

Kent Weed  

No, well, it doesn’t change the fact that that things still go wrong in your life. It doesn’t. It’s how you deal with them. And and you can’t just you can’t just pretend to hide by, hide behind, Oh, I should be grateful when something goes wrong. No, you just have to accept that this is in my life for a certain reason. And it could be meant for you to find some growth out of this or or, you know, you need to face this challenge because it’s, you know, I always just used to say, when I was meditating when I was first meditating, one of the things I would do is I would meditate about the morning going very well. I would meditate and go, Okay, the kids will be good along great and my wife will be happy and nobody will be rushing off to school and everything will be smooth sailing. And 10 minutes later I go upstairs and then all hell would be breaking loose. Yeah, and I remember saying like, wait a minute what’s going on here? I just meditated on this, this isn’t supposed to be how this works. This is crazy. And you know, then I then I started like, more of my my practice grew. I started realizing okay, you’re you’re you’re playing a joke on me now. Okay, you’re just testing me seeing how resolved I am with my my you know, my practice and and and then it happened to listen but that’s part of the like you said before it’s part of the acceptance and surrender to it and how you deal with it. Now listen rather than get, now the difference is rather than get angry and upset and like we have to look at, get your arse in the car. We got to go, we got you know, rather than you know then it’s become, you do with more compassion. And that’s really got to get going now and I’m not, there’s there’s still times when you have to be stern you have to be you know, strong, strong, which you could do it without you know, you always, you’re always late, you don’t have to do with all the you you you statements. We’re making them wrong or making them feel bad.

Murray Guest  

I was going to say Kent and you reminded me of after my accident, and when we met I was in a neck brace. You might remember. I had depression for at least six months after that, that accident and what I knew was my fight or flight mechanism was magnified. So I got triggered much easier because of all of the the ways I was seeing the world and the big shift for me was that shift of gratitude and find finding the small daily gratitude in so many little things not looking for I’m grateful for my big house or whatever it might be. Not that my house is big, but it was all the little things and that built this shift. And I know gratitude that’s had a big impact on you as well.

Kent Weed  

Oh, yes. And listen, kudos to you for recognizing that and you know, the first thing is to start noticing when you’re going, you know operating from your fight or flight. And notice when you feel those those triggers start to kick in and notice when you feel resentment or notice when you feel fear. Yeah. And the noticing is the first step because then you can do something about it. Because when you’re just operating blindly and you’re in reaction mode, then you’re never you never leave this part of your brain. You never leave the amygdala and which you did obviously by these little moments of gratitude is create a shift, start shifting that from back to front. And the more you did that, the more you were able to stay in the front and then also when the triggers appeared, you recognize them quicker. Yeah. And were able to deal with them.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and to be really open and I’m sure I’d like to get your thoughts. It’s not like hey, I’ve done that tick the box. It’s an add on. It’s an ongoing investment. Yeah, and by the way, we’re human.

Kent Weed  

You know, I am not I’m the last person that’s ever going to say I’m this way all the time and I’m Om and and kind and loving and compassionate. I make mistakes just like anybody else. And I remember the day that there was a this teacher and author that I admired and respected a ton and and he is well known meditator and, and teacher and like I said author and and I met with him in person. And I was like I had him on this pedestal right and he came into my office and we were talking about maybe doing a TV show together. And he walked in he had this giant like venti cup of coffee. And he’s like, Oh, what a morning I’ve had, Oh my kids this, and I’m sitting there going who’s this guy? And then you know, it’s but I realized, Wait, we’re all human. You know, we all we all have those moments. We all have those days. And that’s the trick is to just recognize that, accept that we are human and that’s okay. And move on. And not put yourself down. Don’t judge yourself for it. Don’t say Oh, I didn’t do, this doesn’t work. Nevermind, I won’t do this anymore. I mean, it’s a constant practice.

Murray Guest  

Yeah.

Kent Weed  

We’re always working. We’re always growing so.

Murray Guest  

100% I was gonna say, I know I’m far from perfect. We all are. And I think that’s part of the journey and and being aware of that I can still get things that piss me off. And it’s about okay, being aware of that and what I do with that?

Kent Weed  

Yeah, but see the beauty of it now you know, it’s like you recognize it. Oh, why did that you know, that pissed me off. Why did I get that way? What caused me to get stressed and anxious about that? And I did another podcast that we did a post about this where I was taking my kids to school and we got lost and all sudden, the Internet didn’t work or the GPS didn’t work and the Mapquest didn’t work and we’re going to be late and I felt that angst. You know, I literally pulled over to the side of the road said oh, please stop. I did like you know, change up changing everything and change it up. You’ve got to just change what’s happening right in that moment. And by pulling over the side of the road and stopping everything I was able to gather myself and like Okay, let’s go through this and we got to the game. We were like five minutes late, but the game was five minutes late. So you know, but we get in this this this mindset, like oh my god, we’re gonna be late and the world’s gonna end ah, and then you show up. Oh, they’re not ready to start yet. Oh, all that worrying was for naught.

Murray Guest  

Right? Yeah. The thing that jumps out to me too, is in those moments where it’s starting to kick in. Or when I know I’ve reacted in a way that wasn’t my best and I’m not most proud of. It’s not what’s happening in that moment. But what have I, or have I not been doing leading up to that moment?

Kent Weed  

Very good observation. So true. It’s so true. Very, very rarely is it the moment, Yeah, that is the trigger. It’s like the straw that breaks the camel’s back. It’s like you you do have to like, look back. Okay. What? Oh, it’s an argument I had, that discussion I had with my wife that sent me off that yeah, it’s just still burn, you know, burning in the back of my head, and I’m taking it out in this situation or whatever.

Murray Guest  

And I would add to that have I drank enough water? Did I sleep well? Have I been exercising? Or did I skip my exercise the last couple of days. Yeah. You know, the list goes on. Yeah, we were talking before we started recording today about parenting and children and your recent post on Insta I just connected with from a heart perspective, because we both have daughters which, and boys but I had I want to share with you and get your thoughts. A few years ago, my daughter and I were chatting and we’ve got a great relationship and and she actually had a problem and I’ve jumped into I need to solve this mode, you know. Yeah. And I still remember the quote, she said, Dad right now I need a dad, not a coach.

Kent Weed  

Very valid, very valid. All those are wonderfully valid points. Yes. Yes. And to be able to look at those things and and, you know, kind of analyze where you’re at. You’ll find out the clue. Yeah, you know what, that’s right. I didn’t I didn’t eat this morning, or, you know, I missed that workout that really, you know, and I’m carrying all this extra energy around me that’s now being you know, you know, irrigated into negative energy and moved over in a place so it has to release some way right so. That’s beautiful. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

Which is great, she could pick up on it, and we had this really good conversation. But I’m just wondering, how do you navigate those those roles of how we we want to support and coach and then also be a parent and how that all how does that play out for you?

Kent Weed  

Yeah, it you know, I think that everybody finds their way with their daughter, their way of communicating. A lot of what I do is, is through role modeling, and and I don’t push my self on her I don’t you know, make sure she meditates every day. But I have, I find moments to instill you know, little bits of wisdom or keep them find them ways to keep them present. I do games with them right now. And I really work on not coaching her, not giving her too much advice. And just being a listener. I really, really work on that. I read a book called, wonder if I have it here. I do. Strong father’s strong daughters by Meg Meeker.

Murray Guest  

Ah, yeah, yeah, I have heard of that one. 

Kent Weed  

Yes, this book’s been around for a long time. And there’s some information here that’s a little bit dated. But the underlying message is still very, very valuable. So I’ve actually referred this book to a few people. And I read that when Sophia was six years old, so it was, you know, six years ago, six years ago, but and that gave me a lot of insight in how to not be their best friend. Which is you don’t want to be their best friend because you need to be there. And you’ve gone through this with your daughter, because she’s already 23. So they’re gonna be parts where they don’t like you at all right. And you have to be okay with that because they’ll come a time when they really appreciate the sternness that you have when you put your foot down said no, no sleepover, it ain’t happening. No, don’t do that. And not gonna go to places with boys and whatever that is. And that’s the that’s where I’m about, that’s the point where I’m reaching right now. She turns into a teenager and, and I don’t look forward to those years because, you know, none of us like when our children tell us you, they hate you, or I can’t imagine, you know, but I can’t I can’t imagine that happening. I mean, but right now, it’s just about listening, supporting her. And, you know, being there to help when I can. And, you know, I’m, she knows I’m always there for her. That’s right. That’s enough. You know, that’s enough that I’m, you know, there for her, to protect her but I really am about instilling self esteem and making her confident and not follow the crowd. That’s my push right now, because she’s at a very impressionable age right now where, you know, it’s like being like the other girls. And have the other girls shoes, shirts, jacket, purse, whatever. And so, you know, I’m like, Hey just be your own self you know.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And for girls now and teenagers, I’m mindful of me being a white middle aged man saying this, however, about the pressures that they can get from friends and media and everywhere else around who, who you think you should be versus being the true you. And I think, as you said, you get that from your own self esteem and self confidence. As a parent, one of the tips I passed on to a client recently was have the conversations before you need to have them. And I think when we’re in the moment of having a conversation about something that’s maybe not gone the way we want it to or there has been behavior, and then the emotions can start to kick in and someone says something that we, we don’t really want to say or it doesn’t come out the way we intended to. And so my thought here is and I know what has worked with me is let’s have a conversation about something that may happen, but how would we handle that? So you have that conversation before you need to, whether it’s sleepovers or boys or alcohol.

Kent Weed  

I like that. That’s great.

Murray Guest  

We had some of the best conversations just driving the car driving to school about well, you know, what does this look like? What would happen? What would you do in that situation? And I think it creates some really good foundations in that sense.

Kent Weed  

That’s brilliant. I love that because it’s very safe environment to have that conversation. It doesn’t feel like it’s pointed at them and it also gives them, invites them to offer their viewpoints and you know, show.

Murray Guest  

And they can’t get out of the car while you’re driving so you’ve got a captured audience. Trapped. Tell me and I’d love to know more about something before we get to your your app. We need to chat about that. But I want to know about the Waterkeeper Alliance, it’s something you’re also passionate about and something that’s so important and maybe many of my listeners don’t know what it’s about. So can you please help us understand more about that?

Kent Weed  

You bet. Waterkeeper Alliance is probably the single largest nonprofit dedicated to protecting the world’s waterways. It’s an international organization started by a grassroots group back in New York, but now it’s you know, and there’s 320 water keepers in like 100 different countries. So we’re in Africa, we’re in Asia, we’re in Australia, we’re in you know, all the United States, of course, in England and in many other countries, so and it’s people that police waterways in their local, you know, local areas. And then but Waterkeeper what it has that’s unique is that has a litigation team that fights big corporations and fights polluters and fights people that are polluting our water, you know, and with the Clean Water Act that has been in the United States, you know, it’s about protect everyone’s unnameable right to have clean water. Yeah, and and so that’s, that’s its primary purpose is to protect that right now in the United States, but also for the whole world. And to make sure that in China that companies aren’t dumping water dumping pollutants into the water that you know, in rural parts of China, they have to go down the river and pull the water out of the river. So if if governments and corporations are polluting that water then they’re polluting their people so so I am on the board of directors for Waterkeeper Alliance. I got introduced to it at a speech about eight or nine years ago at an event and I met Bobby Kennedy Jr. There who was the original architect, I guess of Waterkeeper Alliance. And just became infatuated with it, I’m an avid surfers, scuba diver, you know, I love the ocean. I mean, it’s my home. It’s it’s really you know, I probably was, you know, a dolphin or maybe a hermit crab.

Murray Guest  

I don’t think you were a hermit crab.

Kent Weed  

Like to think I was a dolphin but yeah, I could have been a snail you know, or a starfish. I don’t know. But I love the ocean so and so it really resonated with me.

Murray Guest  

And Waterkeeper Alliance covers both freshwater and saltwater. 

Kent Weed  

It does. Yeah. 

Murray Guest  

Okay. Yeah. And I’m aware of, unfortunately, things like Flint, Michigan and water there. That’s obviously got a lot of attention.

Kent Weed  

We were very active there, when that happened too.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great. And I think the thing that jumps out to me here too, is there’s so many parts of the world where the access to clean water still needs a lot of work.

Kent Weed  

Yeah, yeah. And the beautiful thing is you can there’s local water keepers everywhere that you can go in and help them with with the work they do. And it’s you know, it’s not super time consuming and you know, they test the waters but you know, there’s beach cleanups, there’s river cleanups, and, and, you know, there’s all kinds of events that, you know, bring awareness to it and some I don’t think people in general realize that it’s at risk that clean water is at risk. We you know, we kind of take it for granted a little bit and in third world countries, it’s very very rare to define clean water, it’s not easy to access itself. You know, we’re very lucky. You know, when we live in developed countries, it’s much different.

Murray Guest  

Totally great, and I’ll make sure we link to it in the show notes. So whoever wants to check that out in your area, please go and do so. And as Ken said, it’s not a lot of time, but it’s really valuable time to go and invest in that. Tell me about taming your monkey mind and I love the name. Tell me a bit about that.

Kent Weed  

Taming your monkey mind is a meditation and mindfulness program that I created, based on my decade of experience and research and seminars, webinars and 1000s of dollars, you know, learning and trying to mass all this knowledge and it came out I was born out of a reason of a way to have meditation in your daily life, but not spend a ton of time doing it, and still create the same benefits that you get that whether you go on a mountain someplace or you’re going to retreat for a week. And what it does is it takes the best of all these teachers that I’ve learned from and creates this short little 10 minute meditation that you can do every day. And will create the benefits of this mindfulness. But what really makes it work is that the practice the mindfulness practices that are included in the meditation, so there’s there’s mindful practices that you do throughout the day, that center around forgiveness, compassion, acceptance, and surrender like we said and gratitude just to share with you one little one there’s a gratitude stone. This is this is a stone I carry around with me my pocket and whenever I touch my pocket outside or inside oh, and I think it’s something I’m grateful for. It could be the smallest thing like to see a bird fly over, it could be a flower I walked by, it could be you know that a drink of water. But to your point where you said earlier, you know, you shift you shift into the that moment, you just make a shift. It’s a small shift, but it’s enough to trigger your consciousness to be aware of the present moment. And the more we do that, the more we reprogram our brain, we rewire it with neural pathways and we start creating an overall shift. So through repetitiveness consistency, and practice the mindfulness practices alongside the meditation, very little time out of your day because these that took what 10 seconds for you to do that and then go those moments.

Murray Guest  

I love, I love the little, I’m sorry, the anchoring river stone that you just held up to the camera. I love that.

Kent Weed  

Yeah, and the program has many more of these types of practices in other you know, types of areas where you like I said, compassion or forgiveness or acceptance and surrender that you could just click the little triggers, their positive triggers, the triggers that send you back into the present bring you back into the present moment, which reinforces your meditation practice every day. So not just enough to go and do 10 minutes meditation than fuck off the rest of your day. Pardon my French. And then start you know, because because it’s it won’t stick. So so this helps it stick and it brings it keeps reminding you and what happens is like in 30 days, you see a huge growth where you become much more mindful, much more aware of your triggers much more aware of things when you start to think you know, start to get stressed or start to do, you notice that much quicker. And that time that gets compressed? To like, you know, used to be wrapped in something and then you’d say an hour later, oh, it should have been that way. But now it’s like this to get to work. It almost happened simultaneously. You start to go, it’s like uh, you catch yourself. And that’s the beauty of you know what I think this practice offers people plus it’s really good for relieving, relieving stress and just creating overall joy in life by these constant low repetitions, you know, you’re more joyful just in general because you you have to.

Murray Guest  

I love it. I love it. And I love also the link here too, for people that are thinking about how do I do this? How does it help me? When you think about your physical fitness, like you don’t just train once a year to go and run a marathon or even just be the best you know that you can be physically, it’s those little bits you do all the time and so yes, do it during the day and then those those tips throughout the day to help connect into that. So again, there’ll be links to that in the show notes and I actually look forward people sharing to me the impact and with Kent of course of using the taming your monkey mind. Where did the name come from?

Kent Weed  

It you know, it came out was born out of you know one of the things I have faced with before I started meditating which is constantly racing thoughts in my head yeah, not being able to shut up my mind and and what taming your monkey mind does is it teaches you how to replace those thoughts with thoughts you want. Our brains are wired. We’re hardwired to be thinking all the time. The difference is you can totally tell your brain what to be thinking about versus it telling you what to be thinking about. Personally letting go, letting it go random and just go crazy throwing ideas your way you can flip the switch and start programming your brain to think what you want it to thought, what you want to think I mean so that’s what taming the monkey mind comes from. And you mentioned this earlier about the physical aspect. And this is goes back to you know, the whole combination of mind body and spirit is that the spirit angle was meditation, really helped me be cognizant and mindful of my physical, what I ate, how I worked out every day because it was a priority in my life. And because I kept making it a priority. My brain would start thinking you know, you shouldn’t need that your brain you said you should have some of this now or your brain would say you got to work out now and versus the opposite, which is like I’m too tired to workout or that chocolate cake looks really good. And you really do rewire your brain. And ultimately, you know, I think when you have control, we all want to control what we’re doing in life, that’s a beautiful thing. So when you can control your mind, you’re a step ahead of everybody else.

Murray Guest  

Ah and I’m thinking about trying how we rewire our brain about what we focus on and what we pay attention to. And the power in doing that. My example here that I often use of people is I don’t play golf. I actually don’t, it’s not not a sport for me. And when I walk into a room if someone’s got a set of golf club, I won’t even notice those. I might I might notice them but I’m not interested in them. Whereas if someone’s got a mountain bike, I’m like, oh, what bike is that? How, what’s the specs like? And so we have that with our passions, but I love what you’re saying here Kent, like let’s bring that into the other parts of our life. For our well being and looking after ourselves.

Kent Weed  

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Murray Guest  

So liveurpurpose.com, best place to go to to check you out.

Kent Weed  

Yeah, liveurpurpose.com. You can see all my posts my I do blogs and interesting things and you know, habits you can do tricks, sleep tricks, all kinds of meditation tricks and practices, a free meditation on there. Also access to my courses on there as well. And it’s constantly updating with new and interesting, you know, information that I guess you can use in your life. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great, fantastic. So I’ll make sure that’s linked in the show notes as well. And to wrap us up for this wonderfully awesome conversation. What’s your definition of inspired energy?

Kent Weed  

Inspired energy. For me inspired energy is a passion for life. And if you can live with a passion for life, you’re inspired and you have tons of energy.

Murray Guest  

I love it. And can I just say this conversation has given me energy I think about starting my day with a conversation with you. I’m ready to go and jump on my mountain bike and hit the trails. I’ve got to go do it. It’s been wonderful. Kent, thank you so much. Really good to reconnect. 

Kent Weed  

Such a pleasure,.

Murray Guest  

So much valuable information, all the best for this year from a personal point of view, but also professional point of view on what you’re doing and look forward to keeping in touch.

Kent Weed  

Yeah. Me too. Look forward to be back on again and sharing some more fun things with you. Thanks.

Episode 107 – Jeff Spahn | Creating true collaboration & teams that thrive on creativity

In this episode I speak with Jeff Spahn, a pioneer in leadership forging a new, evolved theory and practice of leading that meets today’s challenges and opportunities.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

So tell me about Lake Michigan.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for, well, I visited your website before I got on and in there you have a little video where you encourage people to experience the awe of, of nature as a way to get in a creative place if you’re stuck. And I really, really appreciate that and you made me realize how thankful I am, where I live and why I live here. Because I’m you know, Lake Michigan is one of the natural wonders of the world or the Great Lakes are and there’s a park, a beach and the lake and and 20 minutes ago the sun was setting, the moon is rising up over the lake and the clouds are dark, but the the water looks green, you know and then the other thing is it starting to freeze some you know, spectacular that it freezes in spheres, in circles, you know and it’s like, wow, who whoever told the water to do that, you know? It’s just like, wow, so thank you for that reminder.

Murray Guest  

Just the colors and the shapes that I’m just picturing at the moment for the time of year it is for you, cause down here, it is hot. It is hot down here in Australia right now. So what was the temperature while you’re out?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, it’s uh, it was in the mid 30s. So it’s really quite pleasant for this time of year. It’s been down feeling like minus three a couple days ago. So that was another nice thing. I didn’t have to get all all bundled up, you know, to survive out there. But that’s another thing Murray I mean, last year, I could go out and just pretend I’m in Alaska. Yeah, it was all ice, deep into the lake ice. I mean, it’s just like, wow, I don’t even have to get in a car to drive to see this, you know, really was more profound that way last year than many years and I’ve lived here for a while. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah, it’s such a great reminder. And thank you for checking out that little video because I think about when I get stuck, I’m sitting here in my office and sometimes I’m trying to think of how I’m going to get back to a client or write a blog and I just I get that that you know that freeze and I’m just not too sure. I go for a walk or on my mountain bike in the bush and then ideas start coming.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. So it’s almost like nature’s just waiting for us to listen, you know?

Murray Guest  

Yeah. So did you did you have any inspiration come to you while you were out on the lake this evening?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, not past what I’ve already told you. You know, I mean, you know that that inspiration, I wasn’t really asking a particular question. But hopefully I think we’ve gotten off to a great start and that wouldn’t happen without me taking that walk. So I think that’s part of it, getting ready and being in a good space to enjoy this conversation.

Murray Guest  

And I think that’s a really good point that there’s a flow on effect, isn’t there, when you get out in nature, that reset, that connection, that flows on to what you do next. So yeah, this morning, my wife and I went for a bike ride. And we easily could not have gone for a ride. And it was one of those moments of ah, it’s Friday. It’s Friday morning here and it’s the end of the week and we might just have a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and stay at home…no let’s go for a bike ride. And I’ll tell you I’ve got more energy and I know my wife has, after getting out and we rode down to a lake as well. Lake Macquarie, not far from here. And it just kicks off the day so well.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does. I, I believe in it. I take a walk every morning. I’m here in the morning and out to the lake.

Murray Guest  

So I was gonna say, Jeff, with the leaders that I work with, and I imagine some of the leaders that you work with with working from home. I think the the habit to form around that connection and getting out that opportunity people have I think is so so important.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Yeah, and I think it’s it’s so easy to overlook and just the idea of getting the fresh air and then the the surprise of what’s, what’s going to be there, you know, the colors and everything. And for me, you know, it taps me into you know, a bigger reality than the problem I got. Yeah, and then I think I think your point, once I expand myself in that reality, then I see this little particular thing that’s just kicking my ass, you know, like in a different perspective. You know, I step back, I can’t help but kind of step back and look at it, and say, wow. And then in that space, that’s often where the creativity comes at least as as I experience what I heard you say.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, it’s a good point. I think maybe I’ve lost that a little bit sometimes which is, hang on that thing that I was racking my brain over isn’t so big after all.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, I guess for me, sometimes it’s just feels all consuming, you know, like it’s, you know, all of a sudden a closet and I’m in that closet, and I got to figure this thing out. And for me letting go of that need to figure it out and let the intuition come. Wow, that’s, that’s liberating.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Wow. I love that. I love that. So how long have you been in Michigan for?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, I’m actually in Chicago, on Lake Michigan.

Murray Guest  

Ah, gotcha. Yeah.

Jeff Spahn  

So Chicago, Illinois, and Wisconsin, the State of Wisconsin, are on the west side of Lake Michigan, and Michigan’s on the east side. And so I’ve been here for several years. I came here for for school. But I haven’t lived where I live, but five years. And I, you know, I really love live jazz. It’s improvisation to me and it’s experience of the We the leader experience. Yeah, and we can talk more about that. And Chicago has a vibrant live jazz scene. And so that’s part of what keeps me here. And then I lived more in the city. I’m still in the city, but you know, more in the concrete and I was just tired of that. Then I found this spot, you know, where I don’t have to cross a major highway to get to a park and the lake. And I love it. 

Murray Guest  

So tell me, why jazz?

Jeff Spahn  

Why jazz? Well, uh, for me, uh, you know, the whole notion of jazz. And particularly, I want to qualify my interest in jazz with two things. One is, improvisational jazz, which is, you know, that’s different than having a score and everyone playing the same score. You may have a score as Ken vandermark, a MacArthur Genius Award winner once when I was in conversation with him, I said, you know, how do you play with this notion of having something predetermined and scripted, and improvisation. And he says sometimes it’s just straight up improvisation but often I’ll create a predetermined score with my musicians in mind and and then how they might play off of it. And I love that integration of the improv and structure or what I talked about is the the egalitarian structure of most organizations that’s not named. But sometimes that can seem like a threat. However, you still need the hierarchy. But the hierarchy isn’t the control. It’s to free the collective flow, the improvisation of the group. And I just love listening to that and experiencing it there live, you know, knowing what these are, watching the nonverbal cues. I’m hungry for it. I haven’t done much of it with the pandemic.

Murray Guest  

Do you play or are you more of a listener?

Jeff Spahn  

No I went deep into Second City and propositional theater here in Chicago. I don’t know how well that’s known in Australia. But second, Viola Spolin really, we awaken the improvisational theatre by working with challenged youth on the south side. And then out of that came Second City and it’s world class improvisational theater experience as well as educational vehicle and I I went like three or four levels deep into it, and the teacher saying, hey, follow the follower. Yeah, you know, and I’m like, Well, that’s the same thing as lead the leader because if I follow the follower that followers a leader and then then we’re really mixing it up, you know, so it shakes up some of the state categories, at least for me, that we think about in organizations. You’re a leader or you’re a leader or a follower, when actually newest science tells us that the mind is working both sides, the right the leader follower side at the same time, and that’s the fundamental basis of We the Leader.

Murray Guest  

And I love this premise of We the Leader and I love what the book’s about, we want to get into that but I want to know a bit more about the structure and improvisation in jazz and how you see that in leadership.

Jeff Spahn  

Right. So, one I mean a lot of times think people think of improvisation as, you know, impromptu, no structure. I mean, it takes structure and skill to practice improvisation if you don’t follow the rules. There’s no, it’s just freakin chaos.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And I was thinking Jeff about brainstorming. I think some people think oh, we just get in a room throw around ideas. No you still need the structure for those ideas to come out.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, right. And brainstorming can be helpful, but it’s not improvisation. And so the the there’s the idea of actually, to me that brainstorming is more like gathering the pieces and then improv is a way of starting to connect them and then see what’s appearing here that we haven’t seen before. And, and, you know, I think the whole team taking a walk out in nature beforehand would certainly help that.

Murray Guest  

I agree. I love that seeing what we’re seeing that wasn’t here before. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff Spahn  

So when you when you think about it, Murray, I mean, that’s what’s the beauty and the wonder of Improv Theater. You don’t know. I mean, I, I mean, I did improv theater. It was it was the most excruciating and exhilarating experience I’ve ever had. Because I remember this one scene, you know, Connie and I didn’t know each other. We were married in the suburbs. Obsessed about our lawn. And we just started the play and it was hilarious. The whole place is cracking up. I felt so alive. Ya know, and that’s, that’s where I want to be. I want to live in that space.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, the energy is nearly you know, palpable, isn’t it? When you’re in that space where that sort of creativity and that flow, that flow is just happening.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s what that’s what you know, drives me into it. So relating that to an organization, let’s just say a team. Okay. So, when we gather and we the leaders, the basic assumption is that everybody is equal, different and vital. Okay. Now there’s still the hierarchy, right? The hierarchy is still there. But that set aside, everybody’s equal different and vital. And so how do you show up that way? And in the book, we’ve talked about core practices, a curious conviction, we can talk about that if you like, and however, there comes a time within and this is where I’ve been successful. That’s a little thing about being able to implement improvisation within the necessity I think of a hierarchial organizations, particularly the bigger it gets, you need structure and you need a decision making model. And so that’s where the hierarchy fits in. The simple model is, the leader would say, Okay, this is how we’re going to decide if we need to, we’re gonna spend this much time in improv, you know, but we need a decision by five o’clock and if we haven’t gotten that decision, then I’ll follow the leadership, I’ll follow the decision making model and make a decision in a timely fashion. So then I access the wisdom of the group, and still work within the structure of the necessary hierarchy of deadlines.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, gotcha. 

Jeff Spahn  

And it’s a very simple, it’s not a distinctive decision making process, at least as I know. But when you couple it with the improv, wow, you know, it works and it’s fine.

Murray Guest  

And the thing that’s jumping out to me too, Jeff, is what I’ve seen is in leadership teams where there isn’t that support and alignment with the decision at the end. And so, the how they got to that decision, not everyone’s supportive of it. And so then when the decisions made and they’re moving forward, we’re not on the same page, and maybe there’s some behaviors that aren’t supportive. But what I love in your process is, because we’ve had this place where everyone’s equal, vital, and their perspective is valued, then when we get to the decision, I feel like it’s going to be much more supported.

Jeff Spahn  

Yes. Well, you know, that equality builds trust. There’s nothing that builds trust more than mutuality, you know, being in it together and knowing you’re in it together. And then if you make a decision that I don’t like, or threatens me or deters my own self interest then I’m more apt to go with it. Because I believe you have the best interest in mind. If I feel like you’re trying to undermine me and you really don’t like me and you want to put me in my place. Then I’m going to be lifting my middle finger you know, and just not very happy, but I’ll be very nice about.

Murray Guest  

So, tell me, what was it like, as a journey to get to this place of writing the book, We The Leader?

Jeff Spahn  

Wow. I was just talking with a neighbor of mine who’s a professor here at a local university, and he was telling me about how his younger guy, he wrote his dissertation, and I, you know, but he’s not so interested in getting it published, you know, and I said, Wow, I relate to that because I wrote a dissertation years ago and I had no real interest in getting published. And I tried writing a book in the last 10 or 15 years a couple times. But it just didn’t click, but this time I had more of the process we’re talking about, you know, I was integrating more of that process as a human being and as a as a leader myself, and tapping into my intuition and getting quiet and leading my own self and then moving with what shows up without immediately judging it or trying to figure it all out. Just let it come let it flow. And that wasn’t my total experience, but it was most stuff. I mean, I went through some some difficulties.

Murray Guest  

What helped you get to that mindset? 

Jeff Spahn  

Well, the we the leader process, and in We The Leader we have three sections, one is the diversifier – me the leader, everyone the leader of their own distinctive and unique life. And then the equalizer – everyone a follower of the common purpose. Then the unifier, we the leader, how do we as equal different vital people make a difference through our differences? So that’s the setup, but that practice for me of the Me the leader and getting in that observing space consistently, so that I’m not wrapped up in my own reactive bubble. That I mean, just amplifying that, everybody talks it, not everybody. A lot of people talk about that, and that’s great. But I just needed some time to do it better. And the book process really challenged me to do that and I was ready for it the last couple years, and I spent I’ve spent the almost 85 to 90% of my time on the book the last two years. I’m elated. I did it. I’m very happy with it. It was a spectacular process and sometimes it whipped me around. I get on my bike and take a ride and talk to myself.

Murray Guest  

So what I got out of that, too, is the process is so applicable for teams but also for yourself. To look at the mindset and the way you’re approaching different work. And you can sort of step into those three roles yourself for the work you’re doing. I love that.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, and and the you know, the idea that there’s no I in team, I don’t buy that, you know, there are I’s, they’re just you know, within the T, right? And and the me the leader’s key because it’s not, you know, the we the leader is not about having one follower. It’s everyone showing up as a leader. And I take that very seriously. I’m the only person that can know my experience, my feelings, my thinking. My body is totally unique. My past experience is totally unique. I’m the only one who can choose for myself. Actually, nobody else can lead me but me. And then Whoo. That that then you have people showing up with their full self. Mike Coffman, CEO of Cardinal Health, one of the 14th largest global corporations. His image is everyone brings 100% of themselves to work. Yeah, and you get that and people know how to engage with 100% of themselves. You got something pretty special.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I want to talk a bit about the some of the key things you cover in the book, but before we get to that, can I ask, what’s your hope for your book?

Jeff Spahn  

Thank you for that question. My, my hope for that book is to stimulate conversations like this and reimagine what leadership means for the world. I hope that the book, instigates, inspires another level of thinking about leadership. Because Murray, I think we really need it. We, we I mean, the human race needs another level of leadership. And it’s not about one person leading followers, or leading or following. It’s about everyone showing up as a leader. And I think I’ve got some provocative ideas. I hope to to initiate some conversations like the one we’re having and allow that to reverberate and impact the way we think and practice leadership and I’m very excited about the possibilities.

Murray Guest  

So if I’m a leader listening to this and I feel like I’m in a quite a hierarchical structure right now. And there’s a leader and I’ve got followers. What’s the first sort of step in my journey of starting to shift that and start to create the culture you’re talking about?

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Well, I think the first step is to lead your own life, and different people are in different stages with that. Yeah, but but as I work with somebody, I gauge that, you know, and then we adapt to where that where that person is. But the the key thing is, if, if I’m talking we the leader, you know, and we’re having this conversation, and you’re not excited, then you know, it’s probably not not the time yeah, just probably, you know, it’s just not right. Now we can spend some time and and get you excited. But, but to bring that into your team. The key component of the success of we the leader in the team is the readiness of the formal leader. And I don’t work with everybody. But I’ll work with people to get them ready if they’re open to that. And some folks are more ready than others. And that that readiness is is a hunger and like, yeah, I felt that improv experience before I want more of that. Yeah, we’ve had that kind of success, you know that, the IT thing crashed and we thought it’d be two weeks and by the end of the night midnight we can have done Yeah, woo, we just came together and did some spectacular that we the leaders about making what making that happen more consistently, collective flow, I call that collective flow. Can become the norm not just the exception.

Murray Guest  

I love I love that. The feeling I’m getting, it’s like the hair on my arm sticking up when you talk about that, because that readiness isn’t like let’s do the readiness checklist. No it’s actually the feeling, the emotion, the connection to what you’re talking about. And that’s where I get all that sort of buzz for it. And then yeah, that that idea of everyone being in that flow, and that flow state and then feeding off each other in a really, you know, a really positive way. Ah, that brings energy to the workplace.

Jeff Spahn  

It really does and then to do it intentionally, and so and know what you’re doing. Sometimes we fall into it. But what the we the leader offers it offers a framework, a conceptual framework, a mindset and skills to keep it happening, you know, rather than man I remember that two years ago, or, you know, we can do it and most everyone if they haven’t had that experience, they’ve seen others have it. Yeah. Or they’ve heard about, you know, and, and it’s in the arts. It’s in improvisational theater and it’s in jazz. Not not just scripted jazz, but improvisational jazz.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. Um, I also think about the challenge I hear Jeff, of leaders saying, Well, I just don’t have time for that. I’m too busy. I’ve got too many meetings. I’ve got too much stuff to do. What’s your answer to that?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, I remember it was a Friday afternoon and I’ve worked with this guy who came in from the sales to run the program within this financial company, major global program. So that was a big shift. And it was a couple years into the program. And he calls me, you know, he’s giddy I thought, well, what what’s going on? He win the lottery or something, he’s had the voice of like, I got to know him by this time. I was like, Jay, what, what happened here? He said, you know, Jeff, it’s 2:30 in the afternoon on a Friday, and I don’t have anything to do, and I’m going home. And so if you got a group of leaders and their humming you know, you don’t you don’t, you’re gonna free up your time. You can’t afford not to do this. I mean, that’s my perspective, because you’re for your own health for your own happiness. And that’s one of the things I love about the, the the outcomes for in this process are great for you as an individual human being, apart from being a leader in an organization, and oh, by the way, the business results are exceptional. And can be consistent.

Murray Guest  

You said before, it starts with leading yourself and I’m a big believer that as leaders and how we show up at work starts at home. So you can’t have your home life all over the place. And out of control. You’re not looking after your own health and then expect to turn up and be a good leader. How do you help leaders start to get a better understanding and that sort of, I guess, leadership of themselves, how do you help you do that?

Jeff Spahn  

Well, I’ll share I’ll share a basic process that I use, and that’s that’s in the book and to me again, it’s about this notion of observing oneself, between, you may have heard that quote, between stimulus and response is space. In that space is choice and then that choice is our growth, freedom and growth. I’m a big believer in that. So how do I experience that space? One way is to take an awe nature walk. Another way is to build an internal skill, where I become more increasingly aware of my reactivity and how I can react and spin down and be angry and frustrated or avoid, to my own detriment and to the detriment of the team in organization. And that can happen. I was in that space for at least three years, primarily, you know, as part of my own my own journey. But developing that capacity to kind of say, oh, to just kind of observe myself. Look at look at what I’m doing right now. Look at what I’m thinking and feeling. I have this choice and I call this the boss, boss yourself process. B is the basic practice of taking a deep breath, right, you know, just some kind of breathing practice that works for you. There’s multiple ones. We all know the power of a deep breath. Then in that space that creates some space then I can observe myself. The O, observe. And then when I have that intact, then I can select, I can choose. I have a freedom of choice. Hey, I can show up curious here rather than judgmental. It’s all up to me in this moment. Rather than, you know, be you know, and not have that choice all the time. And so that’s a basic practice what I call boss yourself or lead yourself. B for breathing. There’s, you know, a practice of that which is integrated within the teams as meetings start. We don’t take four hours but we you know, you practice that. And we all know that vitality of a deep breath while we bring that to here and then the observing. I’ve got a little diagram with it, you know, and then select a select. You always we always have the power to choose how we’re going to show up. No, it might not feel like it but we have the power to choose that.

Murray Guest  

I love how this doesn’t just apply in the work sense too, that pause, that observation in all parts of your life. And then starting to think about, well, what’s the choice I’m making, and bring back that empowerment of the choice and what the impact that’s going to have for you, for others, for whatever it is you’re trying to do.

Jeff Spahn  

Right. And I think that impacts health as you mentioned earlier, it impacts mental health directly. And then with that comes comes the physical health.

Murray Guest  

Well, and speaking of that, I’m thinking about how timely your insights, your book is right now with COVID and, Jeff, people working from home different working arrangements, you know, flexibility, all of that. And teams need that. I would say as you’re saying that we are all leaders and how important that is right now.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Well, I think the the notion that we are all leaders is, is having its time. You know, I mentioned Mike Coffman and his chapter, he has a chapter in the book, by the way, and it’s called A Career of Leading Leaders. And he, he just kind of instinctively did this, and I think it was helpful for him to hear me name it, you know, like, oh, yeah, that’s what I do. That’s how I see. You know, that’s what I’ve been doing. You know, he’s moved up within the organization. And so, and then we have millennials and other younger generations, they should they show up as leaders, they expect to lead, right. They’re leading their own lives, you know, they’re, they, they’re, they’re making movement and progress and evolving with the skills and different ways of boss yourself, you know, so they’re not looking for someone to just tell them what to do, and without any explanation, they want to know why, they want to know why that decision made. They want to know why they should show up for work, you know, and what’s the purpose of it and, and that’s a core factor, obviously of leading yourself. And so, more and more conscious or not, I say everyone is a leader, where you may be aware of that you may be practicing it or not. But then the other thing is that the world is so complicated, and it changes so quickly. That increasingly, and I think I expect eventually, almost always, any problem any project needs leaders from across the organization. So you have a cross functional team, integrated team, you know, to get work done and that’s a vital, vital structure that needs to be in place. I mean, either explicitly or not, to help help work that out. So those are factors that I see that say, Yeah, everyone is showing up more as a leader.

Murray Guest  

Well, I think it links back to what you’re talking about before with improv. If you’ve got people from different parts of the organization, they bring different experiences, different perspectives, different points of view, and then we create something we didn’t know was possible, yet.

Jeff Spahn  

Create something we haven’t seen. I love the image of a puzzle. But the key about that puzzle box, it’s it’s white or it’s black. It’s there’s no picture on that puzzle. Yeah, right. Yeah, there’s no, we don’t know the outcome of the puzzle.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha.

Jeff Spahn  

You see what I’m saying? That’s the improv nature of it. And then the pieces of the project puzzle or the team puzzle, are what I currently think and feel. That’s me leading me right there, right. And then everyone brings what they currently think and feel and there’s gonna be some tension for sure. But if we hold the space for that, and allow for the connections, whoo, we start to see what this puzzle actually is. And that’s the foundation of contemporary innovation. That and that’s where I think collaboration is really dated because co-labor is related to industrial age. Co-labor, labor, you did something, you labored on something someone else decided. And yet, that’s the word we still use to exemplify good leadership. Now I get its linguistics, but there’s often our language reveals the limits, the unconscious limits of our thinking.

Murray Guest  

So what’s the word we want to switch collaboration with.

Jeff Spahn  

I would use the word co create. And I’m looking for another word. That’s the one I would use right now. You know, that we are co creators. We each have equal different vital pieces to the human puzzle, or to the project puzzle, the organizational puzzle, or the problem we’re facing.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah. I like that. Co create. And you keep coming back to that equal, different, vital. The vital stands out to me as something a little bit unique too, Jeff.

Jeff Spahn  

And that fits. Oh, go ahead.

Murray Guest  

No, no, you go you go because I’m excited about that.

Jeff Spahn  

Well that fits into the the leader, the me the leader piece, the diversifier and so, every person, if you were doing that puzzle, right, let’s just say we’re doing an actual physical puzzle, right. And I’ve got two or three of my pieces hiding in my back pocket. I’m withholding because, you know, maybe I got shot down or whatever. And here the pieces are what I currently think of feel. And then that puzzle is not going to come together, you know, it’s it’s not going to have it you need every piece to finish that puzzle.

Murray Guest  

You’ve just got me thinking of a such a great question to put to leaders right now. And that is what pieces of this puzzle that we’re facing are you holding back right now? Yeah, because that’s that image of, I’ve got these pieces. I’m going to keep them in my back pocket. I’m a bit pissed off about something you said last week, or whatever it is, you know, right. Oh, yeah, I like that Jeff.

Jeff Spahn  

The other question is that, let’s go with, let’s stay with the puzzle metaphor. So the the other thing that doesn’t happen when it’s puzzle successfully comes together is no one says, My piece is the whole puzzle. You know, I’m not here for you to conform to my pieces. Or to think like me. But I’m here to have our differences exposed. So that’s different to if I’m if I’m the leader and a traditional leader then I’m trying to convince everyone of my piece and then that’s what it means to lead, isn’t it? You know, and then people do what I want them to do. And that puzzle was not going to get put together. So the other question could be is, you know, how are you imposing your perspective? How do you want to convince the team of your point of view? Yeah, are your questions sincere? Are they really questions? Or are they ways to get people to think the way you want to think? They call that faux collaboration. You know, a lot of leaders that oh, they’re, I know how to ask questions. But but you get the feeling that there’s something behind that question, that they already have a predetermined outcome. And that’s the key thing about someone being ready. Are they ready to let go of that predetermined outcome? And really believe in the team, that team is smarter than they are.

Murray Guest  

And let go of that need for being right. Yes, exactly. Yeah, that’s it. I’ve got the answer my ways the right way, but I’m just going to tick the box. Let’s let all that go.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that’s the the excruciating and exhilarating part of improvisation. You don’t know what’s gonna happen. But we do have the safety net of the decision making model that I told, you know, deciding how to decide and sharing how the decision’s going to be made. It’s it’s, it’s it’s that that is a safety net. And I think a very important structure to have in the context of improv and today’s business hierarchies. Yeah, so I’m not dissing hierarchies completely. I’m reimagining hierarchy as facilitating improvisation. Or facilitating collective flow.

Murray Guest  

Gotcha. Gotcha. Because at the end of the day, we still need some, challenge me on this of course, but at the end of the day, we still need someone to be held accountable for that final decision. Yeah, I’m just thinking that that’s true. Yeah.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah. Yeah. I think the more that accountability can become spread, the more powerful it is. But you don’t want to, I don’t want to throw out accountability. Yeah, because you got to have it and I can think of clients where what happened was they they were re inventing themselves, they understood they had to become more creative. And so they created equal teams. Teams of equals. Yeah, and and but then some of those really flew, but many of them didn’t make any decisions. Nobody made a decision. And then they started to have people make decisions have a formal leader, and then they lost the creativity. And they were interested in we the leader because it it could it could address both of those challenges. Does that make sense?

Murray Guest  

It does. Because I’m a big believer of structure enables flexibility. And, like you say..

Jeff Spahn  

I like that, would you say that again, please? 

Murray Guest  

Structure enables flexibility. And so we can’t have the improv without the agreement around how we’re going to make our decisions when we need to. Yeah, yeah. So and then the analogy I’ve used around this sometimes is the flight plan for a pilot, the pilot takes off, he has a flight plan or she has a flight plan of where they’re flying. And if they don’t have that, they don’t know how they can modify where they’re flying, depending on the weather or the holding pattern that’s needed. We don’t just take off on a plane somewhere. So we need that plan to know when we can flex.

Jeff Spahn  

Yes. Yeah, without the plan you have nothing to flex.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Jeff Spahn  

I really like that. Yeah, that’s that that to me is an example of consilience which is a word that comes from Eduardo Wilson’s book on consilience. And it’s the idea that evolutionary biologists what he says is that the fundamental impulse of life is the jumping together of opposing energies for something new. And you you just set you know structure and flexibility, well structure is not flexible and flexibility’s not structure, but no they are. They’re one in the same. And and that that fundamental principle you say yes, I say no. Well, hey, there’s a third you know, there’s a third way one is an opportunity for creativity. It’s in our DNA. It’s how we create each other. And then that plays itself out in we the leader because for we the leader, you’re a leader and a follower. I’m a leader and a follower. How do we as leader followers, lead projects, teams in organizations? And it’s about leading and following at the same time, just like you have the structure and the flexibility. It’s not either or, it’s not one person either or, it’s both leading and following at the same time, and that’s, that’s the innovative component of we the leader. Iin process and in practice, if that makes sense.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And again, it comes back to the, the let’s call the opposites of the hierarchy. And the we the leader, yes, we have both and they work together.

Jeff Spahn  

They don’t just work together, they’re mutually enhancing. They make, the structure makes the improv or flow better. And the flow makes the hierarchy better. And if you want to have more power, this is the best way to do it. It’s about increasing the pie right? So that the pie is bigger. And to do that, you need to have both of these seemingly opposite energies interplaying in a way that’s mutually enhancing. That’s where the magic is. That’s where it’s like, wow, this is, I feel alive right now. You know, this is where we want to be.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And that’s what we want people to feel more of when they going to work every day.

Jeff Spahn  

Well, you know, I don’t think I’ve ever said this before, but as I’m hearing you, you say that’s what comes to my mind. You know, people talk quite a bit about birth rights. Yeah. I think it’s a birthright, you know, to, to live in this space we’re describing, that’s what we’ve been created to live in. And we’re headed in that direction as far as I’m concerned.

Murray Guest  

I agree. And I think there’s been a lot of talk I’m sure you’ve seen it about the great resignation. And the way that I’ve talked a bit about that recently is it’s a great realignment. It’s that realignment about what’s important to me, what’s the way I want to work and what does that look like? And what we’re talking about, I think is what people want. They want to have that connection, the chance to share their ideas, to be heard, to be loud. Yeah, give me a culture where all that happens. And then I’ll want to come to work.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, I like that. The realignment, to one’s own purpose and one’s own sense of being alive. And and if I’m not getting it here, I’m going somewhere where I think I could get credit. Yeah, that’s quite a bit different than a resignation, resignations kind of like well, I’m done. But it’s not I’m done. It’s, I’m moving on.

Murray Guest  

Exactly.

Jeff Spahn  

I’m realigning. You know, that’s what I’m hearing you said, Murray. Yeah, I like that.

Murray Guest  

So Jeff, I’m interested, what are your your plans for 2022?

Jeff Spahn  

Sell a lot of books. And use this as a restart for leading leaders. I’m interested in a gathering a we the leader Academy of mutual learning, having people apply and invite to the academy to actually experience the we the leader process while learning the process. Yeah, and the book is the first step in that direction. I’m very excited about that idea. And I’m looking to get back into doing more client work because I’ve enjoyed client work. I’ve set it aside for several several months here, but I love being a part of having a conversation like this and then okay, how can we make this work and then seeing it come to fruition and people’s lives change and teams do fun things and organizations shift. That’s fun to watch.

Murray Guest  

It is, and again, back to what we’re just talking about. So needed right now, that’s for sure. And anyone that that is listening to this conversation, I’m sure you’ve gotten lots of fun and energy out of Jeff. Full of energy, Jeff, I’m going to put this video on YouTube because honestly, your your energy comes across in the video as well as the audio. It’s been fantastic. I would I would say to anyone, you know, make sure you reach out check out Jeff’s book. There’s a link in the show notes. Also the We the Leader course because that sounds exciting and then have a look at that as well. Because the things you’re talking about are so important and powerful for anyone. You might be a team member, not a let’s call it a defined leader right now from a title, but these concepts apply to everyone.

Jeff Spahn  

I just want to accentuate on that, on the academy piece. Academy of mutual learning. And so everyone will be equal, different and vital, and we’ll practice a process I will initiate but but we will practice the process of mutual learning as an improvisational education opportunity. And that that’s going to be a lot of fun.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, definitely. So yeah, check out the link in the show notes for that. So Jeff, the question I ask everyone I have a chat with is what’s your definition of inspired energy?

Jeff Spahn  

Hmm I’m experiencing inspired energy right now. So you know, it’s kind of like I’ll, I’ll know it when I experience it.

Murray Guest  

I, I like that. I agree. My energy levels going up in this past hour. It’s been fantastic.

Jeff Spahn  

Yeah, yeah. And I think the initial step was the awe, the walk of awe into nature, you know, and I think that got us started, but it’s, you know, I love talking about this, you know, and the other side of inspiration I think is in the Rilke, the German poet. He wrote the book Letters to a Young Poet, and the young man was asking how do I become a poet? And Rilke basically said if you can live without being a poet, don’t be a poet. If you must be a poet, then you’re a poet. And that’s inspiration. You know, I mean, it’s are you doing what you must do? I mean, this is, this is what this is what I bring, this is my contribution to society to the human race, I dedicate the book to the evolution of humanity. I feel like I have an equal different and vital piece. And I’m excited about it and it has a sense of meaning and depth to it. It’s not just a feeling but that feeling is rooted in a contribution.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I totally agree. And I love that. It’s that in a way there’s, you know, people talk about purpose or calling but it’s, as you said, it’s that thing that you must do. If you don’t do it, you feel a bit empty or lost because you’re not doing it. And I think when you tap into that, that’s when that energy sort of comes in. Ah, thank you for sharing your energy with me today. It’s been wonderful.

Jeff Spahn  

Well, thank you for the opportunity. And again for the jump start with the awe walk in nature, so fabulous. Thanks so much.

Murray Guest  

No worries, Jeff. Again, thanks a million. Everyone please check out in the show notes, the link to Jeff’s book, to his website and also check out that Academy for Mutual Learning that Jeff’s talked about. Jeff all the best for 2022 and hope you get plenty of time doing what you love, and out there doing some improv as well.

Jeff Spahn  

Hey, I love it. Best as well to you, Murray. Thanks. It’s been great to meet you.

​

Episode 106 – Dave Robinson | retired US Marine Corps colonel – High Performance Leadership​

In this episode I chat with Dave Robinson, a retired U.S. Marine Corps colonel and author of The Substance of Leadership: A Practical Framework for Effectively Leading a High-Performing Team (Per Capita Publishing, Sept. 2021).
Drawing on Dave’s decades of experience in the military, we cover effective leadership strategies, how to influence the culture, getting people on board, and leading in high-pressure situations.

​

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

So good morning, good evening. David, welcome to the podcast, I’ve just loved our conversation, getting to know you and chatting, and I’m really really super excited to connect with you around leadership and all you’ve got to share. How are you?

Dave Robinson  

Murray, I’m doing well it is evening here. Good morning to you and I really enjoyed getting to know you in the last few minutes here in our conversation, such a privilege to be on your show and it’s an honor. Thank you for having me.

Murray Guest  

Oh, to be honest so I’m going to share with everyone I’ve been reading some of your book that came, came out in September, the substance of leadership, a practical framework for effectively leading a high performing team. It is honestly so full of insights and stories, I feel like there’s a real head and heart connection throughout the whole book, the head giving us some real understanding of the practical tools and the heart through the stories and what you share so I definitely want to talk to you about that. Before we get into that. What’s life like for you now at the moment in October 2021?

Dave Robinson  

Well the book launched in September that was quite a journey 18 months from when I started writing, it had been a decade in the making Murray, but I finally, you know when, when COVID hit I thought what better time but to try to put my thoughts on paper and, you know, ended up, you know, going through the production process over the summer and and launched here last month so October is kind of getting back into the swing of things with some travel, I’ve got a number of clients that I love serving and it’s been great to, you know, reconnect personally with them and a lot of challenges have come out of the last year and a half for a number of reasons and so it’s, it’s great to be a thought partner with them and as their organizations are changing and adapting and and going to the next level. So that’s, that’s what I’ve been up to this month. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, well, it’s very similar so a lot of my clients I’ve been working with have been online interactions, online workshops and sessions, but we’re starting to shift back to face to face. And I think people are craving that face to face connection and moving forward. I think there’s going to be a hybrid version with some online some face to face and a bit of travel, not as much as I was doing, and I do like a bit of travel, get to see the country get to meet some people. I like to support the small businesses when I do that which is good. I’ve heard for people that publish a book, and write a book, it can be like having a baby, it’s like this big build up and then you’ve had the baby and now you’ve got to take that baby out in the world. How has that process been for you?

Dave Robinson  

Well that’s a great question. You know, I’ve just started to have the chance to reflect Murray on the process and had a great publishing team, just an amazing editor, you know, you said something a minute ago and we can pull the string on it but I really did have to organize the book with my head and this is the first time that I’ve ever written something that’s not been kind of academically critiqued, you know all of my previous work has been in an academic environment, it was a real challenge for me to organize the book with my head but to write it with my heart which is not something that’s always comfortable for me but I was a great learning process and so it was a real push to to launch on September 21, And I felt like I was crossing the finish line. And then my editor said Dave, you’re actually crossing the starting line of Omicron and so you know I really it’s it’s the long view, and I hope it will have impact for for many people for a long time so that’s the way I’m looking at it, just looking at it from the long view perspective.

Murray Guest  

And sometimes when people write books they write them for themselves to get that out of their system and, but what I’m hearing for you what was important is getting your life, your lessons, your insights out to other people, inspiring them.

Dave Robinson  

I felt like I was really fortunate and blessed Murray to spend, you know, two and a half decades in a great organization, United States Marine Corps with a lot of mentors are invested in me and, and poured great leadership lessons and over the last decade I’ve had a chance to share those with many executives, CEOs in the private sector who are experiencing the burden of leadership, and I realized that no matter where you are, what industry you’re in, leadership is challenging, it’s hard and so it’s just been such a privilege to try to share some of those lessons with people who are experiencing the challenges and the burden of leadership and, you know, I think I’m a teacher at heart and so I really enjoy whatever I can do to help others, I’ll tell you there were times of self doubt when I was writing the book, wondering if anyone would actually read the book I’m glad you’re one of the people that that’s encouraging but you know I always said if this helps one leader out there to lead better than it was all worth it. So, what a journey it’s been.

Murray Guest  

And to distill your insights and experiences through the US Marine Corps, that must have, I felt like you must have had more than one book in you, because you’ve had some experiences, and some time, two and a half decades in the Naval Academy and then in the Marine Corps. How did you get that down to distill it to what you want to put in the book.

Dave Robinson  

That’s a really really insightful question and a tough question I’ll tell you when I transitioned from the Marine Corps 10 years ago to the private sector. We, our family had done 13 moves in 25 years and I had three kids kind of in high school and it was it was time to stabilize the family and be honest Murray I wasn’t really sure what I was going to do and my next career was a risk I was taking but I knew that my passion was really helping leaders succeed, and so that’s what I was focused on, got into management consulting, but I also started doing some speaking on leadership and around the US. One of my very first engagements was with a group of about 300 executives in Los Angeles and what they wanted me to do was talk about how to lead a high performing team in a high pressure environment, all of us are under pressure, whether you’re getting shot at, whether you have, you know, moving targets, sales targets, you know safety issues, whatever the case might be. Everyone is under pressure so that seemed to resonate with the audience. Well I’ve got a number of, you know notebooks of leadership lessons that I have over the years, two and a half decades of experiences and my challenge was they said I had 45 minutes to do this talk and I’m like, How do I synthesize 2.5 decades down into a 45 minute talk but it was one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done, I talk about this in the introduction to the book because it really forced me to focus Murray on what I think matters most, with regard to leading a high performing team. And so I landed on what I call the leadership triad, three areas: culture, people and mission. If you can focus on those three areas, get those three areas right keep them in balance. I think you have a really good chance of being a successful leader. So that was my 45 minute speech and then when I turn that into a book, my first working title was the shortest leadership book you’ll ever read because the thing was only like 50 pages right and so, but over the last decade I’ve had a chance to really grow that framework and find out in the private sector, how to connect those three areas together and then how to apply those in a number of industries with a number of very practical challenges that people are facing. So that’s how it evolved, and I’m, you know, I’ve learned so much in the process.

Murray Guest  

So quite often leadership skills are called soft skills. Hmm. What do you think about that.

Dave Robinson  

Well I think that’s a good way to look at it I mean you know I always feel like one, one of my mantras is that leadership is people centric and management is process centric. I think some of the hard skills fall into the management side of the equation, don’t get me wrong, I think you need both to be a successful leader because management is all about how you get people to work, you know, to get the work done. But leadership is people centric, and people are complicated, and all of us have egos and you know you can call them soft skills you can call them whatever, you know I prefer to think of them as influencing skills and how do we how do we influence people to work together and to set their ego aside for the good of the team under a culture where you have psychological safety and everyone feels like they can trust each other, where people feel like they’re taken care of and we’re all working together toward a common mission. That’s inspiring. And if you can get those three things together, call those soft skills, call them people skills, I think that’s what it’s all about.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and we’re so aligned David because I think, to be honest I think soft skills is a bit of a misnomer because honestly, it’s hard, it’s hard to engage with people it’s hard to have those conversations as you talk about in your book, building trust, being aware of how you’re showing up as a leader. Let’s go back for a second, the leadership triad, culture, people, and mission. Tell me, when we explore culture and creating culture as leaders. In essence, what’s your message about, how do we do that, how do we create that culture so that everyone is putting aside their ego, and creating that safety, how do you think we can do that.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, thanks for asking. I mean I think what I have found is that high performing teams I could describe in one word and the word is trust. People trust each other. You look to your left you look to your right, you know, you have each other’s backs, you’re not always going to be perfect. You’re going to let each other down. But you’re vulnerable enough to trust each other and so that’s really what I think is the what I call the center of gravity of a high performing culture, well the next question Murray from many of the leaders I work with is, Okay how do you develop a high performing culture? I try to simplify it and say look, you know everyone has limited bandwidth and there are many philosophies about leadership, but what I found in a very practical sense, I call them the three C’s. The first is have character as a leader. You know when you have character, primarily integrity, I can trust your intentions that I know that you know if I’m working for Murray and you’re the leader of the team, I can trust that you know you’re always trying to do the right thing and so that I think that’s the starting point that’s, that’s a good foundation. The second C is competence, and that’s all about our core mission and doing our best to be constantly learning and improving in our trade, whatever that might be because when Murray is competent as a leader, I can trust your actions. So now I can trust your intentions, I can trust your actions. The third C for me is composure and all of us will face adversity, that’s where true character shines, but if you can maintain your composure under adversity and see those as opportunities to lead now I can trust your emotions and so when Dave Robinson can trust Murray’s intentions, actions and emotions, I want to do the same and then pretty soon that that permeates into a culture of trust that I’ve seen, to be very effective for successful teams.

Murray Guest  

When I think about composure and stressful situations and you overseeing 20,000 combat missions and over 2000 medical evacuations. You must have had that composure tested, time after time.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, I had it tested in fact in the book I’ll tell a quick story for your listeners, you know, one of the things I’ve noticed is, all of us have probably worked for a leader who doesn’t react very well under adversity, especially you try to bring them bad news and they shoot the messenger three times and people just want to not bring any news to the boss right very quickly they get disconnected from the organization. It’s a shame, but when they panic under pressure, it’s really catastrophic, it’s contagious, it can spread like wildfire and you know it’s an emotion, you know, I think that sometimes under pressure, you know, we may sense the urge to panic, but the key is to maintain that composure because it really sets the tone for how our team responds and I learned this firsthand in 2006 I was in charge of all of the air operations in western Iraq, and I was at a base about 100 miles along the Euphrates River west of Baghdad and we had 30,000 soldiers and Marines on the ground and we had about 200 aircraft and I was responsible for orchestrating air support and medical evacuations in an area about twice the size of my state of home state of South Carolina not nearly as big as Australia, I get it but it’s it was a pretty big piece of real estate we were responsible for. Well one afternoon, we had five simultaneous firefights breakout and the casualties were starting to mount, it wasn’t uncommon for one or two but this was five all at once, and then I looked up at the video feed from the drone overhead our base and I could see a large mob starting to form outside the front gate of the of the base and speeding toward that mob along two separate dusty roads were two white sedans, you know, traveling at a high rate of speed, and then as if it couldn’t have gotten worse we started taking mortar fire on the north side of the base where all of our helicopters were parked so I realized that we were under what we called a complex coordinated attack right we had something going on at the front gate. Five firefights in our AOR, mortar fire where all our helicopters were parked, casualties were mounting, people were screaming for air support. They were screaming for medical evacuations. I’ll be honest with you I started to sense the urge to panic. And I had a flashback to three years earlier I was in a classroom, I love learning, I was listening to a retired three star general named Hal Moore, and he wrote a book called We Were Soldiers Once and Young. If you or your readers or your listeners haven’t read it, it was turned into a movie by the same name, Mel Gibson played Hal Moore, and there was one thing Murray I remember he said that day. He said, if you find yourself in a combat situation where lives are on the line and you’re in charge, I can guarantee you, you will begin to feel the urge to panic. It’s human nature. Yeah, when that happens, you need to take a deep breath, remain calm because if you begin to panic, everyone around you will panic and it will only get worse and I realized Murray, I was in that moment that General Moore was talking about three years earlier so I huddled up my air support team. And I said, I just need to say two things very quickly. First of all, this is a bad situation. I need you to think outside the box be as creative as you possibly can use whatever resources you can use to to save as many lives as possible, number one. And number two, whatever you do, take a deep breath before you key the microphone because if they sense that we’re panicking in the command center, it’s going to spread like wildfire out there in the battlespace and I said, whatever you do just keep me informed so I can have your back. Yeah, so they went to work, and it’s just some amazing, creative, high pressure thinking, we had our fixed wing air support director, had an F18 team on final approach with a little bit of extra gas he told them to do a low flyby over the gate. You’ve been at an airshow before you know what an airplane going at 100 feet. Everybody crouches down. The two sedans stop, trying to figure out what’s going on, our quick reaction force found out that it was improvised explosive devices in those vehicles, setting up for a suicide attack but we were able to stop that in time. Then we had our Attack Helicopter, Director, send up two Cobra helicopters over the area where the mortar fire was coming that, that gave us some breathing room that gave you know that stuck for a while. And then one of the most creative things I’ve ever seen, our cargo helicopter controller, she had a forship of CH53 echo helicopters really large cargo helicopters that were carrying a lot of cargo, had them set down in the middle of the desert, unload the cargo, set up a temporary security perimeter and then use those helicopters for, you know medical evacuation missions, and it was just a remarkable response by the team due to their credit, I wish I could tell you that we saved everybody that night I can’t tell you that but I can look at you in this video and I can tell you, we did the best we could given the circumstances that was unfolding I was so proud of that team. And I was so thankful for that advice that General Moore had given me three years earlier.

Murray Guest  

And just to clarify, you just said that at night. So what time was this all happening. 

Dave Robinson  

It was in the evening, it was at dusk, and it was kind of interesting, you know, a lot of the Iraqi’s had day jobs, so to speak and then it was very very hot, you know, it was, you know, late, late spring, and you know as the as the sun started to go down and the cool temperature started to bring the ambient temperature down that’s when the fighting heated up and that’s when people, you know, changed into their fighting uniform so to speak, and that’s when the, that’s when the tough stuff really happened.

Murray Guest  

That simple message of breathing, pausing. And what I take from that too, David, is the ripple effect that we can pass on, as leaders without realizing it, and how important that you pass that on to everyone in your leadership group that in that moment, to make sure that they’re aware of that. In hindsight, how do you think that innovation came out because I’m hearing the innovation. Where did that come from do you think in that moment?

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, I don’t want to, I don’t want to take any credit here because all of that came from what General Moore told me to do and a lot of great leaders, but I think it came from a couple of things first of all when you’re a leader everyone is watching you. Yeah, you may not realize that you may not know it, they’re listening to every word, they’re watching you. They’re especially watching you in a crisis under pressure to see how you’re going to respond and they’re going to cue off of that. And so I think, by taking General Moore’s advice, taking a deep breath remaining calm, as uncalm as I was inside that that was, you know, one of the first contributors, but Murray the other thing I think was, I told them what needed to happen but I didn’t micromanage the how, right, I told them, do whatever it takes to use whatever resources you can to save as many lives as possible. You go figure that out, just tell me what you’re doing so I can have your back. They knew I had their back, I was accountable but I was asking them in the heat of the moment, I didn’t have time to micromanage all this because we would have gotten behind, but I had people that were thinking ahead and felt like I had their back, I think those two things are what made the difference.

Murray Guest  

Yeah and I just such a strong, strong link back to what you told me about before, and that center of gravity of a high performing team being trust, you had their trust, they trusted you and empower them, there was so much empowerment in that moment.

Dave Robinson  

Well, I would like to hope so I mean I certainly, that’s one of the hardest lessons I’ve learned as a leader, as a Junior Leader, it’s, it’s common, it was common for me I learned this the hard way to, to try to tell people what to do and how because it’s, Hey, I’m the leader I should know what I’m doing right so this is what you need to do, when in reality if you’ll just tell people what and let them figure out the how I found that 90% of the time if not more, they had a better solution that I would have come up with.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And thank you so much for sharing that story I could feel it I had the hair rising up on my arms, and, and, and picturing the that moment that stress and and the, the quick thinking that was needed in that moment. But it’s interesting because what I’m thinking about, as I’m saying that is quick thinking but calm at the same time, and how important that is. I feel like that’s that’s linked beautifully to the leadership triad around culture and people, can we explore mission a little bit? When you talk about mission of a high performing team, what does that look like?

Dave Robinson  

Well, I think, once again I can I can count to three and I’m not sure I can count to much more Murray but at least I can count the three. There are there are three things in the you know, in the triad and then within each of those elements of the triad. There are three things that I think really contribute and move the needle on mission success. The first is prioritization, I mean, we live in a world where, in the last 20 years information saturation, the volume and velocity of information flow is overwhelming, and it’s so easy to get, you know, attention deficit disorder and just you know everything is a priority, but you know what, when everything is a priority as the saying goes, nothing is really a priority. This is one of the most common challenges that that I see leaders and executives wrestle with right now so prioritization I think is really the foundation for mission success. I found that if you have more than three to five priorities, then you need to rethink those because it really starts to distract you know what you’re really focused on and the goal here is to keep the main thing the main thing, otherwise you risk being average at what matters most and that’s not the goal of anybody so you got to figure out what matters most, really prioritize and focus on that I think that’s the foundation.

Murray Guest  

So can I ask David, on that, if, as a leader, you’re listening to this and thinking, You know what I’ve just feel overwhelmed I’ve got, not three to five priorities I’ve got 15 or 20. Once you’re insight to sort of get clear on what are the real priorities right now.

Dave Robinson  

Well I think first of all you need to really understand what your mission is right I mean if you can clearly define your mission, and you know I always recommend trying to put a little clarity on this Murray was something I call it leaders in 10 and you start out on leaders in 10 at a very high level by defining very clearly and succinctly, what do you think your team’s mission is and I think there’s two parts to that. First of all is the task, what we need to accomplish. And then there’s the purpose, that’s the why I think it’s, that’s more important than anything if you can understand your why, I think your prioritization flows from your purpose. And then finally, would be to try to paint a picture of what success looks like, that would be the vision so if you can really focus on your mission and your vision with your prioritization flowing from your, from your purpose, I think that’s a great starting point and I don’t think it hurts to number one, ask your people. What do you think it’s gonna take to achieve this vision right now. And then number two, make sure you’re aligned with your boss, because you can have all the priorities in the world and if you’re not aligned with your boss’s priorities that misalignment is going to be challenging to achieve your mission so love to hear your thoughts that would be my initial reaction.

Murray Guest  

Well I think the thing that jumps out to me is in the busyness and as you were talking about the information overload and, and having so many priorities that people just keep going on what they’re doing, and taking the time out to pause and reset and ask. Get clarity with the team with your manager with the rest of the leadership team, you might be a part of. And let’s have that conversation let’s get clear, let’s not just keep doing what we’re doing. I think there’s a link back to you know, in your story before about pausing and pausing here to actually to actually take the time to go, What are our priorities right now and let’s get absolutely clear on that, let’s not just keep charging ahead.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, I think that is really insightful I mean I’ll tell you in the military, it’s common for your boss to tell you that everything’s a priority, just get it done right, yeah, I, when I wrote what my final assignment was here in South Carolina, I had a Marine Air Group with about 2500 people, 100 aircraft or so, I was coming here from the Pentagon and I was developing my leaders intent, and when I added up all of the kind of priorities that the organization had there were about 50 things Murray, there was a stack of books about eight feet high, was taller than me. And I’m thinking to myself, Is this realistic so as a leader, the first question is, Is this even realistic? So I’m kind of a math geek, I did a little analysis and I added up all the time requirements in that eight feet of, you know, instruct military and divided that by the number of people in the air group it came out to 26 hours per day and that didn’t include eating or sleeping. So I went with my, I went to my boss and said this is literally impossible right so as a leader, you know, we need to give our people time to find balance, work life balance they have other priorities personal priorities family priorities. So maybe just start by doing the drill on about how long do you think it would take you to do all these priorities and if it doesn’t fit into an acceptable workday, then you need to start whittling it down and make some hard calls.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, that’s so, so powerful and I think when you’ve got that data to actually just let’s let’s get really clear whether you need to do the full Excel spreadsheet on that one or you can do a postage stamp or back of the envelope type analysis but let’s get clear on what are the numbers telling us, do we have the people and the time to do what we’re trying to do.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, do we have the resources to get done what we think we can get done, otherwise we just frustrate people and set ourselves up for failure.

Murray Guest  

And and I think David 2020 2021 has highlight of this even more with the situation’s we’ve had with COVID and working from home and not working from home and different arrangements and people’s priorities, I think it’s just highlighted this even more.

Dave Robinson  

No doubt, I’ve seen some of my consulting teams, it’s amazing that you get used to, you know 12,14 hours of back to back to back zooms right with no breaks in between. And now that we’re traveling again they’re like well what, why don’t you join the meeting and you’re like well I was 35,000 feet, you know, we just don’t, we don’t process the reality of time and space and so that’s that’s a challenge.

Murray Guest  

So three keys to mission. Focus prioritization was number one.

Dave Robinson  

It’s the foundation yeah I think preparation is the is the second, and that is, as leaders, always, always encouraged us to think, What are we doing today to prepare for tomorrow’s opportunity so that we’re more proactive and not so reactive and so I think we have the foundation of prioritization and then preparation is really what forms mission success. And then the third P that I talked about Murray is passion for excellence and that’s all about setting high standards. As a leader, holding ourselves to an equal or higher standard to inspire people to try to achieve that standard, and then coaching and developing our people to achieve that standard and you know I think people really want to be coached and developed if it’s done in the right way to achieve that high standard and I’ve always found that people really want to be a part of something that’s larger than themselves and that’s that’s a challenge for them as long as they’re given the opportunity to grow and develop into that role.

Murray Guest  

In the Naval Academy or in the Marine Corps, where you’ve got people that aren’t passionate about the work. Is that a coaching conversation, or is that more direction around I’m just going to tell you what needs to happen like how is there a bit of situational leadership do you think that’s at play there at times or how you developing that passion for people in that type of organization.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, what I found was, you know, I think, when you say in the military I think if we were to rewind the clock 30 years my answer might be a little different but, you know, with the information revolution, information is being democratized people have access to information, people sometimes know more than I did about what was going on and so what I found was that, you know, do this because I told you so, doesn’t work anymore. I’m not sure if it ever worked but we at least we thought it did. And so now what I find is that if you can get people to understand the importance the why behind what you’re asking them to do to get them on board with the mission. That’s where I find the light bulb come on, so to speak in terms of inspiring them so that they can actually understand why it’s important and then step two is to help show them where they fit into that big picture where they are direct contributor into that mission and so now if Dave Robinson can connect my daily contributions to where it’s going to make an impact, I’m a lot more passionate about achieving that standard than if Murray just says Dave go do this because.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, 100%, and we were talking before we started the conversation on the podcast about my cousins that are in the Navy as well and one of them has been in there for, I think 35 years. Glenn I have I get that right. And then he talks about the journey that he’s seen around that shift in leadership and developing that passion and that engagement through coaching versus a direct delegation. That said, there’s time for that, you know, in different situations where, you know if it’s, you know, we’re in a practice and in a drill and we need to actually be very direct in our communication that’s needed in that time. Yeah. And I think that’s where there’s a link around with leadership is being aware of, you know the different styles of communication that’s needed in different times to engage into, and to communicate.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, Murray, for sure, you know, I mean there been many crises that I’ve been involved in where I had to get into direction mode and, you know, you don’t have time to really seek input, coach and develop people but you know, preceding that there was an opportunity to earn trust, why because you actually coached and develop people because they knew you had their best interests at heart. They knew the why. They also knew how they fit into the big picture. And so when those crises came up and you, in the interest of time, you just had to make, you know, tough decisions in a very quick manner, then people were willing to get on board and do it.

Murray Guest  

When you reflect on your journey was there a leadership lesson David that you feel like that, you just kept on learning, like it kept on coming up for you.

Dave Robinson  

Well I mean I think that there was a there was a really long learning process of what I call as a leader, as a senior leader of listening first and speaking last. It wasn’t a light switch, it was a rheostat for me, it was, it was, you know, early on trying to assert my credibility and speak first with my team because I needed to be the one that knew what the right answer was, And then I would find some trusted individuals who I would go have a bad conversation with and ask their opinion and pretty soon, toward the end of my career, I got to the point where I’d be at a conference table with 12 other very, you know, successful executives that reported to me and I would go around and say here’s the issue. What do you think, what is your opinion, because as soon as I spoke that almost started to stifle innovation. All of us have a hard time opposing the boss but I encourage them to disagree, I rewarded people who would disagree. It took me some time to become confident enough as a leader that I was able to be humble enough to accept disagreement and and really encourage that debate, but once the decision was made we all got behind it to support it and that’s really the challenge and so that journey was something that I continue to learn over and over and I’m still learning.

Murray Guest  

Me too, I mean, I hear you totally on that one. And that means such a strong link back to what you’re talking before about ego and and creating a culture where that ego, we can set that aside. Because when you’re the first to talk you know how much of that has been driven by ego versus, as you said, I want to sit back and listen. It’s not about me it’s about the collective and about what’s the best solution.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah for sure and I mean, many, many studies done another thing I learned what you know the neuro chemistry behind leadership, I learned a lot when I was researching my book and you know just the idea of a psychologically safe space where the leader not only sits back and listens but also, you know, is able to compliment people for wow I had never thought of that, that was not my perspective but you know, credit to you for bringing that up and just where people feel comfortable sharing their honest opinions without feeling like they’re going to be ridiculed or any type of condescending comments, that’s where the power of innovation and high performance decision making really starts to blossom. And you know one of the things I learned even more than that Murray is, as a leader, sometimes it’s important for us to tee up differing opinions and actually insert some conflict into the discussion that you may not agree with just to get your team thinking about it from a different perspective. And even if Murray is dead set that this is my opinion I might even ask you to play your own devil’s advocate just to get you thinking from the other side of the coin, so to speak. So just getting people to think creatively without fear of any type of retribution, was something that was really a powerful lesson.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and of course you can’t do that without creating that culture of psychological safety can you. 

Dave Robinson  

No you can’t, it just doesn’t work.

Murray Guest  

No, not at all. I’ve got a few more questions for you, David. And this one we haven’t rehearsed or prepared and I just want to throw it out there for you and it’s one that just popped in my head because I feel like you’ve got so much value to share for leaders and, honestly, I’ll make sure there’s a link to your book in the show notes for that so I can reach out and grab a copy of it. But my question is actually I want to see if you could distill that down, your leadership message. If I gave you a billboard on the side of the highway. And every car was going to drive past that billboard. So everyone’s going to see your message on that billboard. What do you want to have written on that billboard?

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, that’s a great question, Murray, that’s a tough question. I think I think I would maybe, maybe we’ll coin it here I don’t know, I, it’s something around what I call the leadership paradox and it’s a little bit along that journey that I just described to you of what I learned over my three decades, three decades of leadership journey and learning and experience. I think it might be something around, let go, you know, as a leader, we want to hold on. Yeah, we want to maintain control. We want to keep our hands on the wheel. I’ve flown 3000 flights in my career I’ve trained hundreds of pilots and I’m in the backseat, there was a stick back there for a reason. When you’re training a new pilot right yeah sometimes I had my hand on the stick, sometimes I didn’t but at some point if they’re ever gonna solo, you have to let go, and it’s something around what I call the leadership paradox because what I found is the more you let go and give to your people. As a leader, the more you get from them in return in terms of high performance, and you know there are two ways that I found to really let go and give to your team. The first is to focus on what you need to do, but let your people figure out the How. Get your hands off the wheel, tell them what needs to be done, let them figure out the how, right let go of the wheel there. And the second piece is letting go of yourself. In many ways it’s about taking care of your people so that they know beyond a doubt that you care more about their welfare than you care about your own. If you can let go of yourself let go of your ego and serve your people, they will do anything, anything, anything to take care of your mission, and so I think that’s what the billboard would say let go and I hope somebody would go and google that.

Murray Guest  

Ah, David, I love that so much. That is so powerful. And I love the two elements of the let go. Let go for others and let go for yourself as well. Yeah. And so, tell me what is it like when you are training someone to fly. Can you just talk us there for a moment. And, you know that there’s got to be so much trust in that moment of, or in those moments of, as you said handing over control to this person that’s that’s taking control of an aircraft. What’s that like?

Dave Robinson  

That’s a, that’s a great question. I love talking about it you know it really depends. Let me caveat it first of all, it depends on what level of the person you’re training so I’ve trained everyone from the commanding officer of a squadron of an F 18 training squadron where we literally had brand new aviators that had just gotten their wings of gold, but they had never flown the F18 team before and we had nine months to transform them from a basic aviator in jet aircraft to someone who could fly off of aircraft carriers and deploy in combat, you know, nine months later, so that was, that was one level the other level was as a Top Gun instructor where you have the best of the best that are going through a very demanding course and these are really talented experienced aviators, and so the two skill sets are very different but there are a lot of things that, that, that are in common. The first is tremendous, tremendous preparation, I mean simulators after academics after test after you name it before they even hop in the aircraft. Yep, once they hop in the aircraft, it’s two seats right there’s an instructor in the back and there’s a student in the front, and there are a number of of standardized procedures and things that they need to do right that’s on the on the on the Aviators that are just learning to fly the airplane, but at Top Gun, it’s, it’s very similar in the sense that preparation is it’s so intense and so robust, and then when you get out there, you always have a wingman and so you’re always flying with each other and mutual support, not in the backseat but you know when, you know, side by side. Yeah, and if you always start with a what we call a demo do, whether you’re trading brand new aviators or whether you’re training Top Gun pilots, watch me do it. And then we’re gonna let you do it. And so setting the example, and being credible that goes back to that, you know, to that second seed that we talked about was competence right, setting the example, showing them the way, and then teaching empathetically I found were really the key for what it’s like to be an effective instructor training people to fly the airplane and that is, I’ve probably made more mistakes in my career than, than you will ever make, but I understand how hard this is. Let me try to tell you some things I’ve learned the hard way. Whatever you do, don’t do this, and everything will, you know, should work out, but at the same time, Murray, there’s some very high standards that you have to hold people to and the hardest thing to do is to fail people on a flight and, quite frankly, the hardest thing I’ve ever done was to have to fail someone out of the squadron and they couldn’t fly anymore just because of safety issues, and we just couldn’t take that risk and so it’s, it’s gut wrenching in that regard but what a rewarding opportunity to that’s the thing I enjoy doing most was taking new aviators in a very demanding dynamic environment, pouring my heart into them and then watching them succeed and see the light bulb come on it just doesn’t get much better than that.

Murray Guest  

Can we just explore something for a minute, David. So, you know, with the leaders I work with, you know, there’s times where they need to have the tough conversation, the genuine conversation, like you’ve had to where you’ve failed someone out of that squadron where they haven’t passed. What’s your insight about how we can have those conversations in a real genuine authentic way so that people can move forward from that situation.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, well I think a few things come to mind Murray that I’d love to get your thoughts with your experience here. I think first of all, it has to be the conversation needs to be founded on and started with trust. I think if I’m having a difficult conversation with you for whatever reason, it’s important for me to make sure you understand before we talk about anything else that I know you’re doing the best you can and I trust your intentions, it’s not like you intentionally went up there to make a mistake and do a bad job right, yeah. Second. Second, I want to make sure you understand that I’m empathetic. I know how hard this is. I know how challenging it is. And I’m probably going to share a story or two about some of the mistakes that I’ve made that are worse than what the mistakes that you just made you might have failed a flight, but I’m going to share some stories about some flights that I failed because now you know that I have your back, have your best interests at heart, you know that I’ve been there, I know how it feels, and now I’m going to start to unpack, in a way that tries to deep personalize it, what happened from a performance perspective, and then close the book so to speak with, how can we work together to get you to the next level. Failing flights was one of the least favorite things that I ever did, the most humiliating things I’ve ever experienced. But when I had an instructor that was like, Look, we’re gonna get through this, it’s important to get it right because there’s a lot, a lot at stake here a lot of lives on the line, and we want to make sure you’re the best you can be. I responded very well to that. What do you think.

Murray Guest  

Oh we’re so aligned, David, honestly, I think about explaining the intent, talking with empathy, a foundation of trust. I would add not rushing the process, I think that can be a trap that leaders can slip into where I’ve just got to get this conversation done. Yeah, where I can definitely hear in your style as a leader and the insight you share it’s about, let’s take time for our people make, let’s not rush these conversations because I think that’s so important. And as you said, Well, what’s next, how do we work forward, how do I continue to support this person for success beyond this moment, whatever that may look like for them or for, for you collectively or as a partnership because I think that’s important. So, doesn’t leave it hanging like there’s a, Okay, so where do we go to from here.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, I love that I love the not rushing aspect and I’m going to build on one, one more thing when you said that what’s next and that is, I found it effective to try to not tell them what’s next, but to ask them what they think is next. Yeah, yes, questions you get them to come to their own recommended solutions, you problem solve with them, you come to an agreement and align on that and then they own that improvement right and so they feel like that they, they are really the one driving their own improvement.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, definitely. That’s a it’s such a valid point such a great point, David. So, right now your company Vertical Performance Enterprises is working with a range of companies. Who do you love to work with now.

Dave Robinson  

Well you know I’ve worked with a lot of Fortune 500 companies and I it was, it was a great education. I transitioned out of the military a decade ago, and boy that was just such a great education for me and a number of industries because leadership, you know, spans every single industry right and I do a little bit of risk management work and some, some, some operations and some strategy work but my passion is all around how leadership can be a force multiplier for helping you achieve your strategic and operational goals and how as a leader, we can help lead our organization through the change that we need to get to from where we are now to where we want to be and so that’s, that’s really where my passion is but when I found Murray was, I got introduced to a CEO of a biotechnology company up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, a sister company Moderna, and we know how important that is right now with COVID. And I found that I really love startup and midsize companies because leadership in many ways, is their ceiling. You know they have tremendous brilliant technical expertise, particularly in tech and biotech companies, in order to get to the next level, they have to grow and scale, in order to grow and scale you have to have leaders that you can develop and delegate to. And so that’s where I’ve really found great enjoyment with startup and midsize companies really helping those executive teams work together as a high performing team and then coach and develop other young leaders to be all that they can be as well.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, wow. And so needed, and I love what you explaining they’re about the ceiling because they’ll get to certain points they’ve been relying on that technical expertise in whatever field it is. And, like going back to what we’re talking about before about how important trust is building that foundation of trust in all that they do, and even shifting and letting go, letting go, like you talked about before, to help them move forward. David, this has been absolutely wonderful. I really appreciate your time so much, so many leadership lessons, insights, and real practical tips for leaders. I really encourage everyone to check out The Substance of Leadership, A Practical Framework for Effectively Leading a High Performing Team. It’s a fantastic book so many things that David talks about that we’ve touched on today but in a much more detailed way to give you strategies to help you with your team and have those conversations and build that culture. So I’ll make sure there’s a link to that in the, in the show notes and check that out. And what have you got planned David just to change topic for a little bit here, what are your plans for the rest of the year.

Dave Robinson  

Well rest of the year, I’ve got some really exciting clients that I’m just starting some projects with, I’ve got the the holidays coming up. I’ve got three kids who are grown adults, they’re going to be home for the holidays, to some extent between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Really looking forward to that because you know that that’s something we haven’t had the opportunity to do as much as we would have liked to over the last 18 months so that’s what I’m most excited about and I’m excited about 2022 and, you know, just, just continue to help leaders take their teams to the next level. So that’s, that’s exciting in and of itself.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I hear you totally. And I honestly David I’m surprised at how fast this year has gone. Doesn’t it feel like it’s just gone like that.

Dave Robinson  

Absolutely, I can’t believe that it’s it’s almost November.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, it’s gone super quick but yeah very similar we’re starting to make some plans for the end of the year and early next year. The challenge is everyone else’s making plans. So, trying to get some accommodation plans or some travel plans just like now when everything’s opening up everyone’s starting to book things so we’ve got to make sure we get on top of that.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, I got to come Down Under in 2022 though so I need to put that on my agenda.

Murray Guest  

Ah, well you would you would love it, and people would love to hear from you so we’ll make sure we talk about that. I do ask a question from everyone on the podcast, and it is the inspired energy podcast, and I feel like I’ve got it today in this conversation with you, but I would love to know David, what is your definition of inspired energy.

Dave Robinson  

Oh boy, I should have I should have prepared for this. Inspired energy you know I have a chapter in the book as you know where I talk about inspiring and empowering teams, and I’ve thought long and hard Murray about really what it means to be inspired and to have that energy and I think inspired energy for me is really around being emotionally invested in your mission, and having a passion for excellence around that mission so the emotional investment is the inspired part and the passion for excellence is the energy part, you put those two together, Murray, I think the sky’s the limit.

Murray Guest  

Ah, David, that is just fantastic and it was such a great way to end this conversation, I can feel that. And this is the thing when we talk about inspired energy it’s not just in the head, it’s in the in the body and I can feel that one so I love that definition, thanks again so much for your time. If people want to find out more about you where’s the best place to find you online.

Dave Robinson  

Yeah, go to my website, verticalperformance.us. And I have a thing on there called the performance pressure test if you want to take five minutes and find out if you’re leading a high performing team, it might give you some things to think about, based on your answers to that. And you talked about my book already so, but that’s where they can, they can find me and learn more. 

Murray Guest  

Yeah, great. All right, we’ll make sure I’ve got a link to that and definitely check out that pressure test because that will give you some insights as to the culture of your team as well. David that’s a great thing for people to do. Again thank you so much, David, for your time. It’s been such a wonderful conversation, really appreciate it.

Dave Robinson  

Thank you, Murray. This was so much fun, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you.

Murray Guest  

Thank you.

Episode 105 – Ryan Houston | Real Estate, Health, Leadership

In this episode I speak with Ryan Houston, who turned a successful rugby league career into a successful one in real estate. We speak about how to look at your career as a sport, why you need to maintain all three pillars of health and the massive changes happening in the local real estate market.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

Ryan, welcome to the podcast, so good to see you.

Ryan Houston  

Yes. Likewise, Murray, great to see you again.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, right. Ah, it’s been a, I don’t know how many times in every episode I have been saying it this year it’s been such a interesting, unique, what else are we using, unprecedented time. How have you been finding the last, you know, even six months.

Ryan Houston  

Okay, in our game right now Murray it’s it’s what we call harvest time. It’s been a beautiful, beautiful time as in business I’m talking about in particular my six months personally has been very different, we’ve just introduced our first baby, which is incredible. She’s six months old so what this time has done as well is, yes the lockdown so I’ve been impacted and it’s been very sad, there’s no doubt about it but that extra time at home, I’ve been able to spend some quality time with the family and have really enjoyed it. So for me, personally, sounds a little bit selfish but it’s been a really good six months.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I mean, congratulations on the, on the bub and how’s the sleep.

Yeah, not much. I don’t know if there’s any tricks of the trade Murray, you can share with me but there’s there’s not much going on but you just got to keep powering through.

Murray Guest  

Well, I’ve got three and mine are much older than yours, obviously, but I still remember some, I think my first Mia I think she didn’t really sleep for three years so I hope yours gets better than that.

Ryan Houston  

Wow, yeah it’s it’s a it’s a beautiful journey but when you when they wake up properly, and they give you that big smile you just forget about what happened that night and you just keep going on with the day and it’s the most beautiful thing.

Murray Guest  

And it’s one of those things I reckon that to explain to someone what it’s like to become a parent is so hard to put into words. And then when you feel it, it’s just the most amazing thing.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah. Couldn’t agree more.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, so yeah it’s good perspective you’ve got and that grateful attitude that whilst yes it has been tough for so many people to have this time with the family, with Bub, with your fiance, connecting. Yeah so beautiful, so now I’m going to say I’m out of the, the loop of the development stages, where is Parker when it comes to walking and all that sort of stuff, six months not yet maybe, no.

Ryan Houston  

No, just learnt to sit on her own without any assistance and she’s looking around and she’s really liking that, she’s nailed the on belly and rolling and stuff now that’s been a recent thing in the last few weeks. I believe the next, next thing is they’re starting to talk and also walk, so I think we’re still a few months away from that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, great, great, it’s all coming back to me now. So my tips for you and our listeners one definitely just take the sleep when you can get it. Yep, whenever that is. And honestly, the book that helped our third child was save our sleep SOS. It’s got some really good strategies in there, when it gets tough when they’re 18 months to two years old, and just helped us get really clear, around how to create some good sleeping habits and patterns, it made a big difference.

Ryan Houston  

Excellent I’ll write that one down. I’m sure my fiance knows about it, but I’ll make sure that I get a read of it anyway, it might help me.

Murray Guest  

Yeah right yeah no trouble at all. Um, and so, health is something that I really want to talk to you about today. I know it’s something that’s really important to you and helps you, you know, have that energy and we need to invest in our health when we’ve got a lack of sleep or broken sleep, and your journey to focusing on health, as a person, is it something that’s been important to you for a long time or where does that come from.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, very, very early on I think I was just very lucky that it was instilled in me as a kid, and health was always the big draw card we always eat healthy, our veggies and our proteins and all that good stuff, but my background was always sport, if there was an industry I always wanting to get into with some sort of sport or team or anything to do with sport I absolutely loved it, rugby league was really the focus, but anything with a ball or any sort of sport is what I love so off the back of that, you know, I wasn’t going out all the time because I knew that the next day was training, so I would make sure that I would be drinking nice water and making sure I’m eating beautiful food and produce to ensure that the engine room, the motor, is in pristine condition when it came to that training or fitness field, yeah.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. And it’s funny, I was talking to my mum the other day and I don’t know if your upbringing was similar to mine, I said mom did avocados exist in the 80s, because we never saw one, you know, meat and three veg, was it was your upbringing, a bit like that, or?

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, well, now, wait, wait, I know what you’re saying I don’t recall too many avocados but mum assures me that they are always, always in the salads, but they were cut up really fine and I now just have a big avo and just whack it straight on the plate, but not either always cut fine in the salad so I have asked the same question. Yeah, but they’re superfood, there’s no doubt about it. 

Murray Guest  

It was clear there was no kale in the 80s, kale just didn’t exist. So rugby league where did your rugby league career take you.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah. Well, originally, Toronto Macquarie Scorpions, they’re just a local league, played a bit of grade, well fair bit of grade there for most of my junior life then my best mate Jonathan Ford he got a contract to go to Toulouse at the south of France, and I finished my apprenticeship as a plumber, and I thought, Well, what a great opportunity. I made a few phone calls I mean I wasn’t a superstar. By no means. I had to, I wasn’t getting poached to come on over. I actually had to make a few phone calls and introduce myself and I got a gig with the reserve grade over there, and they said look, you can come on over, we got you, pay you a little bit, we’ll put you up in a place anyway so I just packed my bags and went over and it’s actually a bit of a long story but I’ll shorten it. What happened, what happened in the end was the, the Nathan Ross who we spoke about just before, he actually at training injured his hamstring. Now, I was sitting on the sidelines, because the first day we’re training, and his boot size is the same as mine, my best mate Johno said, Ryan, did you want to come and fill in, because Nathan’s the same position as me as fullback. So I actually grabbed Nathan’s boots, and it was actually going on a training run was an oppose session against a junior team, and I just had a really good trial game in that game because Johno and me grew up at school together and we played really well and then that afternoon, the coach come to me and said, Look, why don’t you stay for the whole season. Come and be in the first grade squad, we’ll train you feed you put you in a place, and that was a beautiful phone call to make to my parents when I was able to sort of get told that I was going to be in the in the squad and and to stay there for the entire season with the likes of Nathan Ross, Eloni Vunakece  who went on to play for the roosters as well so it was a great squad and really good quality and a great time of my life, a big big eye-opening time of my life, it was great.

Murray Guest  

So does Ross dog owe you? Or is that that ledger been, you know squared off.

Ryan Houston  

Well hey I owe him really, thankfully he tore his hammy because otherwise I probably would have been sitting in in reserve grade squad, and probably not, I would have had to go and get my own accommodation and car and all that sort of stuff and allowance. If it wasn’t for that moment, I wouldn’t have had that opportunity and wouldn’t have gotten to that, that squad which then allowed me to travel to England and play against Batley Bulldogs and London Broncos and all of that. If it wasn’t for that defining moment so hey, it’s everything happens for a reason.

Murray Guest  

And so, how old were you at that at stage?

Ryan Houston  

I was 22.

Murray Guest  

22, getting to live in the south of France doing what you love. What was that like well I got, what, you know, I can imagine culture and food and scenery.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah look, it was, it was the thing that I could put it down to was it was like a dream come true. It was something that I always wanted to do. I always wanted to travel and play footy and I was actually able to do both, and it was just a great moment and I really looking back now that we can’t travel, I’m so grateful for that time because I got a lot of my travel out of my system, and I got to see some great places and meet some great friends and you know, people say that you know social media and that sort of addictive, but I like the social media in fact cause I’ve got so many good friends who are still there, I can still connect and I love that. I love that aspect that’s great. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

The, the drive you had to chase that, and to make those phone calls, as you said you weren’t sort of poached but you had the drive to to go, how does that drive help you now. And, is that still there do you think.

Ryan Houston  

Look, I really think that, you know, I’m in real estate. I really think that it’s just another sport, it’s how it feels like to me, it’s a competitive sport, you need to be fit, physically, mentally, emotionally in every single day, because there’s a lot of competition you’re up against your, you’re in the middle of a transaction where you’ve got vendor who wants the very best price, you want buyer who wants the very least price. You are constantly, every day, wrestling, and you need to be fit, you need to be fit in all those three aspects to ensure that you’re going to be the best every single day, and that’s where I love the job I do because it really relates very much so, to the sport like rugby league or any sport, because it requires training, requires hard work, it requires discipline, and that’s why I think that in the real estate career, it’s going quite well with with how it’s tracking at the moment.

Murray Guest  

Yeah yeah yeah, great, I love that analogy around, you know that that drive that passion and, and what I hear when you talk through that too it’s not just how you turn up for a transaction, it’s all the things you’re doing before that, after that, to look after yourself, so you can be the best all the time. And how do you do that now, like if there’s some health tips or some ways that you know that really work for you that you know are powerful for other people, what would they be.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah so health tips that I would give look I think the key thing, the absolute key thing that I found is that you’ve got to remember that your health is your, your, there’s no wealth without health, that that’s the absolute key so what I’m getting at there is the fact is, you still need a treat, even though I’m not playing sport at the highest level. I’m playing real estate at the highest level, right. So, what required to that is I still need to feed myself with the best produce out there organic good proteins, good, good vegetables good fats like avocado, all that good stuff. You need to be keeping the food coming in, you also need to be exerting yourself you need to be going, exercising, because that’s going to help you not only physically but more importantly mentally it’s going to give you that escape. So, everything that I learned from the sporting scene, it’s just been translated to the real estate or business scene, and I feel like that that’s why every day I can wake up with great energy, I can be more proactive than reactive. I’m not sort of, you know, dragging myself out of bed late, and you know just waiting for the phone to call or anything like that I’m coming in the office I’m absolutely pumped up to pick up the phone, find new opportunities and do what’s best for my clients so that’s why it is so important so the tip, there is, you need to eat, like you’re like if you own, if you this is a good analogy. If you paid $2 million for a Lamborghini, you would only put the best fuel in there is no doubt about it. Yeah, so why, why, when people say oh you know I’ve been eating shit, I go, Well why? Why would you? Your body is worth more than a Lamborghini, I can assure you only get one of them you can’t buy another one. So you better put your best fuel in because you want to be working at the highest capacity you possibly can so that’s where I think the biggest tips are, you know, eat healthy, you need to train hard.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I don’t know who said it, and I reckon you’ve heard this quote and I wish I could remember who said it, but it was basically, you can’t train your way out of a bad diet.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, yeah, that’s a good one. Yeah, no doubt. Yep, totally agree.

Murray Guest  

Hey, I’m just to go back a bit. Tell me, how did things finish up in France and you found your way back to Australia.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, well look, I had another contract lined up with another club called Villeneuve with another guy called Brendan Werth who’s locally around here as well, The Truck they call him, big front rower. And anyway, what happened was the French club they done a restructure and he no longer was going to work there so I was like well what am I going to do, another opportunity came up in America, funny enough, and it was like an ad on Facebook and said, Are you positive, do you want to work with kids and assist them in their journey in life. Press here enquire now for summer camps, USA. So I applied, I got a job as a waterskiing and wakeboard instructor, because as a kid I’d done a lot of waterskiing wakeboarding I never taught it but I knew a lot about it, I drove boats. So, yeah, I got the interview, it was a bit of a long process interview but I got the job I didn’t know anyone there. I went there and I met this Englishman at the airport, who was my buddy, and yeah I was there for the next six months in, located in Maine in the northeast of America, just above like Massachusetts and all that, and yeah, I was there for six months and wow, what an incredible journey and I was the only Aussie in the camp but it was a fantastic, fantastic journey I loved it.

Murray Guest  

The summer camps are really big in America aren’t they, they’re massive.

Ryan Houston  

Massive, and the money is incredible. We had Jerry Seinfeld’s kid there, we had Salma  Hayek’s kid there. I think off memory, I’m pretty sure for four weeks it was 12 grand of for a kid to go to this camp, it was a very high end camp, we had top of the range Malibu boats which are the proper ski boats we had four of them, like it was, it was the bee’s knees, and it was fantastic. We had a lot of celebrity kids in our camp.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. What did you, what do you reckon you got out of that time that you will bring into your parenting.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, look, I think the biggest thing was patience. I remember I was always put in with, I found that I had a pretty good skill with with mentoring and coaching back then, and I guess because of my sporting background, a lot of kids want to be a sports person that’s what I found and I think that kids who they get frustrated easily, and I was finding that I had a few really good kids who were really into their sports because, you know, I was the waterski and wakeboard but also helped out in tennis and cricket and rugby league and soccer and I’ve done a bit of everything, but what I, what I noticed with the kids was, if you can give them patience and listen to what they’re really after. I found that it was really, really beneficial and really worked for me so the biggest tip for me was to listen with my two ears and one mouth so listen more than I speak, and to just really instill that if you follow the right process and system. So if a kid’s training hard and he’s doing all the right things, just be patient, because the success will come, so they’re probably the two big things patients and system and process and time.

Murray Guest  

Mate they’re fantastic attributes to have as a parent, as you go keep that patience, can get challenging, but yeah.

Ryan Houston  

I felt that a few times at 3am when I’m rocking but I just.

Murray Guest  

The thing that jumps out to me too with your journey is you taking action, you seeing opportunity and going right there’s opportunity. I’m going to take action. So, when I work with people though sometimes they get in that mode of I’m worried, I don’t know if I will take the action I won’t take forward and that lack of courage. How do you think we tap into that courage to when there is that opportunity that we take action. How do we do that.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, look, I, I think, yes, that’s a strength. However, I do have a weakness as well, and my weakness is detail. So, my, and when you look at like the DISC profiles and all of that stuff which I know you know very well I’m very high in the I and the D and my C is like so low, so like, naturally, inbuilt in me is I rather do, and then, you know, forgive later, and where I feel that each skill set is good for different jobs or different avenues, but I really think that, in my personal opinion once again is, is, is, is, you never know if you don’t ask, or you never know if you don’t do. So I would rather know, so that’s why I take the action, and then worry about the consequence later, and how I can give a tip to a person who has got the C in the DISC I think that’s where you might have to come in Murray and really give them that advice because, for me personally, I know what works for me and how to take action and worry about the details later but I know it’s very much harder for that different person to do that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, I guess the thing that’s jumping out to me is when you’ve got the right people around you and I know at PRD you’ve got a strong team that support and the people within the team that bring the C that bring the S, that bring the systems and processes to support so that you can do what you do.

Ryan Houston  

And, and that’s a really good point, yeah exactly, everyone’s got a very clear job description and everyone’s got their exact swim lanes and you’re right, everyone’s segregated into them swim lanes so it’s like a nice big organization that works absolutely effectively so the, the D’s and the I’s can make the action and make the big moves and all that, but then you’ve got the support of the, the C’s to make sure that you know the photos are absolutely Mickey Mouse and copywriting is absolutely perfect.

Murray Guest  

It’s just like the fullbacks the fullback but sometimes they might run the ball up and but then they’re the fullback.

Ryan Houston  

Well, that’s exactly right. Yeah, exactly. There’s no point having a front rower, you know, kicking in play.

Murray Guest  

Oh, well, it’s funny, we’ve seen that and sometimes works but not often. Um, I know how passionate you are about real estate and Newcastle and I was catching up with a client yesterday, and a very strong Newcastle business, and we were chatting about the change in Newcastle, so we’ve grown up in this area and it’s just so exciting so energizing. Over the last decade, seeing the cranes in the city and then the buildings coming around and then and what’s happening. Isn’t it amazing. 

Ryan Houston  

Look it’s unbelievable we’re really no longer that steel and coal mining town I mean, it has changed astronomically and being a, you know, proud Novacastrian myself, born and bred. It is now an education, a health, a construction, a RAAF like Williamtown airport, like we’ve got International Airport, we’ve got defense. We’ve got so many sectors now that is creating this beautiful economy so you know the local coffee shop is now bursting at the seams because of all this money that’s being private and public investment into the area. So it’s now creating not only that, as an economy, economic powerhouse, we are also a lifestyle city where we’ve got beaches, we’ve got harbors, we’ve got lakes, we’ve got excellent parks, we’ve got the Hunter Valley, we’ve got Nelson Bay, like we are right in the middle of like an absolute, you know, in a dream location, some of the photos you see going down looking at Newcastle, you could be in Greece, you just, you know, the the the visuals are incredible. So, we are we are so lucky and I really think that that’s why we are seeing so much more demand that’s coming from Sydney and Armidale and Dubbo and Orange all these areas are wanting a piece of Newcastle, there’s no doubt about it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah and, well, I think some of my clients that I’ve been talking to in the past I’d say they had trouble attracting people to Newcastle to come and work here, whereas now there is a different energy and a different as you say a different frame of perception. I had clients years ago saying Oh Newcastle I would never go there, or, or have you gone electricity yet, I said Yeah we do. Thanks, it’s fine. I still remember it’s funny, it was a must have been like six, seven years ago maybe eight I don’t know, but I was flying somewhere, and the in flight magazine in the aeroplane, had an article about, you know, get your weekend away in Newcastle and I was like this is fantastic but do we want everyone to come. Yeah we do. But you know. But to finally see that and start to shift. It’s so good.

Ryan Houston  

It’s, it’s unbelievable and I think it’s only going to get, and some people might like it, some people don’t like you said, but I really think that population wise density wise demand wise. Everything that we’re seeing and what our research department’s saying PRD property research development. They’re saying that some look we’re gonna see a lot more people coming here and making it home. Yeah.

Murray Guest  

What what do you, what are you seeing, around the, the uptake and the interest in apartments because the, I feel like that that’s, that’s been massive for the city.

Ryan Houston  

The start of this year January 2021 out of all of Australia, Newcastle had the most cranes or, you know, big birds they call them in the industry, up in the sky we had six up in the sky, which is huge, okay for a regional town, Newcastle. Now, what that’s done and the biggest question I get is, Ryan are we going to see an oversupply in the market? Now in 2017 or 2018 the state government New South Wales released a document called the greater metropolitan plan of 2036. Now that greater metropolitan planning 2036 you can Google it, you can have a read, they’re saying between now and 2036 there’s going to be 56,000 new people make Newcastle their home. Now just to give you an idea. We’ve got majority of the market, we’ve probably got 70% of the market in the off-the-plan space. And we’re carrying about 800 apartments, two people each, each apartment that’s about 1600 people. There’s a lot of, lot more demand than supply that we’re seeing with, you know the RAAF base alone announcing 8500 jobs between now and 2036. Like that’s just one industry. Yeah, we’ve got universities, education, we’ve got health, we’ve got big firms like NIB, and we’ve got solicitor firms like DWF and Spark Helmore, these are big employers, and now Newcastle has them at home. So that’s where I think that a lot of demand, so yeah you’re right units have been very popular, and no doubt about it and some people say it’s over supply. Look, I’m looking around we nearly sold out, we need more.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Um. Where do you see, or what do you do you can you put yourself in the future and see what you can see what Newcastle is going to look like in 2036, or you like waiting to see or do you have a vision for that yourself?

Ryan Houston  

Yeah I do, I do, I think we’re going to be a very, we’re gonna have two really strong demographics, one being the downsizer who’s gonna snap up a lot of the north facing apartments along honeysuckle and the East End and up at Newcastle East I mean, even down, Newcastle West and Wickham. But not only that, we’re going to see this this specific buyer, right, this is this specific buyer. Newcastle’s always been a fantastic educator of kids right, Callaghan campus is one of the best in Australia, top three, I believe. We now have Honeysuckle campus, Nihon University and NUspace so we’ve got four live universities, a lot of those guys have had to go to Sydney to get the big job, right, accountant and financial advisor, solicitor, all of that. What’s happened now is, those guys now who have bought that one bed or two bed apartment down in Maroubra, and it’s now worth 1.4 million, they’re now saying Well hold on a second. My parents still live here in Newcastle. I’ve made all these friends down here in Sydney as well. I’m going to actually come back to Newcastle and buy a beautiful three bedroom brick home in Merewether for example, for 1.4 million, and have the perfect family home now what’s going to happen is their friends as well I think they’re going to come with them. So I think in the future, we’re going to have in the suburbs Merewether, Hamilton South, Adamstown all these sort of just outer ring suburbs, we’re gonna have a lot of young families I think we’re gonna have quite a young demographic in those areas. But then when you come to the CBD I think we’re gonna have a quite an older demographic of people from the farms, who are seeing some great times at the moment in the farmland, they’ll come to Newcastle and have a piece of the pie for a little holiday destination, a little one bedroom unit facing north over the harbor. So my envision is we’re gonna see two main demographics, and I really think that we’re going to have a real young, vibrant economy here in Newcastle which is going to be a real source of opportunity for everyone who comes here.

Murray Guest  

Oh, mate. That sounds exciting. And I can see that I, I’ve actually was just commenting last weekend too about the shift in the multicultural nature in Newcastle, you know, growing up when we did it wasn’t as multicultural, far from it than what it is now, and that brings this vibrancy and there’s this connection and the diversity and, and, in a whole range of ways and I’m loving seeing that in the town now as well.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, fantastic and you see it with a lot of the sporting clubs as well. Yeah, we’re seeing a lot more of the, the diversity that’s happening and it’s just once again it’s great to the area, there’s no doubt about that.

Murray Guest  

If the government gave you $100 million to, to spend somewhere in Newcastle, what would you do with it.

Ryan Houston  

Jeez, it’s a great question, sort of hit me from the side there. But, look, I think that one thing that is very much in need, here in Newcastle is a some sort of direct, direct link to the airport, whether it be light rail or heavy rail. I think that’s a real key element. And I remember meeting with Kirby one of the head guys up at the airport, up at Fort Scratchley, and he said that this was about a year ago, he said that, Newcastle is the seventh biggest city in Australia, however with the 11th biggest airport. His goal was to make it seventh biggest city seventh biggest airport, it makes sense. So now that we’re an international airport we’re gonna have direct links over to Asia, Singapore, Hong Kong, you know, we’ve got direct links to Auckland we’re gonna have direct links to Indonesia, all that good stuff. I think for the economy, I think it’s just an absolute must to get a direct link to the airport. I know that there is a parcel of land between Hexham and Williamtown that Port Stephens City Council and Newcastle City Council co-own. There is a big aviation space and industrial space going there. But look, I’d love to somehow integrate some sort of link so I think that would cost probably 100 million so I think that’ll help everyone.

Murray Guest  

I think 100 million might start it, I think, rail is not cheap, that’s for sure but yeah now I think I’ve often thought that and when I worked up at Tomago Aluminium, I thought, you know, the rail up heading up there to that business park and to the airport of course would make sense. Yeah, I think of that. The other thing I think about is that that whole redevelopment of the Broadmeadow space, and that coming alive to you know to match the standard that the stadium’s at now.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, well look, there isn’t that exciting. There’s a lot of land out there and I mean once again if you want to if someone wants to reach out I’ve got a document that’s done from the state government, giving you future light rail options and one of the main stops is from Wickham to Broadmeadow stadium because that is an International Stadium, and that’s going to be an absolute hub of high quality performance. It’s going to be an absolute incredible creator of new future athletes, And then, that all that land is just gonna be prime land right in the middle of, realistically, Newcastle and Lake Macquarie so it’s gonna be fantastic.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and I don’t know if you saw there was a recent upgrade to Hunter Sports Stadium announced as well.

Ryan Houston  

I did, $10 million upgrade and once again you know my passion for sport and athletics and everything to do with it. I just think that’s so good. We’re gonna attract new talent, we’re gonna attract new sponsors, and it’s just going to be a beautiful thing for the economy as a whole.

Murray Guest  

Yeah. Um, you talk about sport, have you dabbled or are you getting or thinking about coaching?

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, it’s one of my big things I really want to do it. One thing in real estate is you got to work Saturdays, that’s one thing. But, look, you can create whatever you want if you put your mind to it. So, look, I’d love, I’d love to coach I don’t know, whatever it needs to be, you know, it doesn’t have to be with my daughter, it could be with anything but I’d love to get back to rugby league and go back to what taught me or even athletics, you know, teach people how to run correctly and I’ve got a lot of coaching in that as well so, soccer, I mean I’ve got so much passion for sports, it’s something that I really love and since the summer camps and I’ve always had a passion for it is to mentor and coach and yeah it’s something very high on my priorities. However, at this stage at this current stage in my life, it’s all about me, my family and the business, and it’s definitely on the goals to coach one day.

Murray Guest  

I used to coach my daughter’s netball team when she was a teenager, and honestly it was fantastic. It was so good. I still remember where I was when I first started, I went right, I’ve worked out all these drills, we’re going to run drills and I’m going through this big explanation, over explaining the drills what we need to do. Now, I rattled on for way too long. And I said okay we ready and this girl comes up and she goes, Muzza I’ve broken a finger nail, and I was like, not even been listening to me and I thought I just got to make it much simpler.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m looking forward to, yeah, that that exact thing to happen.

Murray Guest  

Yeah it was great. It was great. Well, I want to just encourage our listeners that are interested in Newcastle and investing in Newcastle and want to know more about the property market reach out to Ryan and connect with him. He is the go to man, he knows and is, as you can hear from his energy and enthusiasm he knows what’s going on but brings that authenticity and honesty to what he does and mate it’s been so great to chat today.

Ryan Houston  

Likewise, Murray, thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate the invitation. I’ve really enjoyed it. And yeah, if anyone does have any questions, please reach out to me anytime on phone, socials, you can give all my details, no problems I’m an open book.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, where’s the best place online for them to reach out to you.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah, look the best place is my Instagram, Ryan Houston and it’s spelt like Houston, Houston, Texas, but it’s actually a house that weighs a ton house that weighs a ton. So remember that. Ryan Houston PRD I do a daily suburb under the spotlight through Newcastle Lake Macquarie each day. I do all the stats I give a synopsis of the suburb and my input on it as well so if you want to get educated. That’s probably the best place to be. You can direct message me on there as well all my number and emails on there as well so that’s probably the best Ryan Houston PRD.

Murray Guest  

Yeah great and and that explanation just there shows again why you’re such a great person to reach out to because you have your finger on the pulse of what’s happening now and the future plans and, and you’re bringing that insight to everything you do so, thank you mate. And to wrap us up. What’s your definition of inspired energy.

Ryan Houston  

Yeah definition of inspired energy is, look, I think that energy is obviously number one you need to go into a room with ultimate energy every time because you can actually change a room with your energy whether it’s high or low. So, inspired energy I think is the good side so inspired energy is when you’re walking into that room, and when you walk into that room, everyone looks and goes, holy smokes my day has now gotten better, because of this guy just walked in with his inspired energy, so that’s mine.

Murray Guest  

I love that. Yes, and, and in true honesty, you bring that mate, you do.

Ryan Houston  

Thanks Murray appreciate it.

Murray Guest  

Well thank you, all the best for this busy time of the year this spring time I know it’s important time of the year for real estate, hope all goes well, and you and the family stay safe and healthy and look forward to seeing you soon.

Ryan Houston  

Likewise Murray. Thank you again.

Murray Guest  

Thanks mate.

Episode 104 – Mykel Dixon | Author of ‘Everyday Creative’

In this episode I speak with Mykel Dixon, a speaker, facilitator, author and musician, who brings a unique perspective to how we view leadership and the relationship to our work.

Listen in your favourite app

Transcript

Murray Guest  

Mykel, welcome to the podcast. Great to see you on the screen but of course, we’ve never met face to face because of this COVID world we live in. Where are you at the moment, from a COVID restrictions point of view, how are you?

Mykel Dixon  

I’m well, good to see you Murray, virtually, of course. I am in my custom built studio which is situated in my garage. And I spend almost all day every day in this wonderful dark room with its moody neon lighting, because yes, the work that we now do is is 90% virtual, 100% for me being a Victorian.

Murray Guest  

I need to just paint a picture here that you have one of the best backgrounds I think I’ve seen, we’ve got this beautiful mood lighting and a little bit of light in the background and some plants, and this, this LED lighting happening.

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah, well, if you think back to the 80s and 90s you had your power suit. Remember that? You want to be, you want to present well when you’re going into a meeting or a sale or speaking on a stage or whatever. We don’t like to indulge too much in it but we’re a very visual species, a lot of animals are really but but we certainly are as humans. So in this zoom world we’re living in teams and virtual, I like to think that your backdrop or the room is your power suit, and not in the sense of, of designing something that makes you look good, but designing something that’s a natural expression of who you are so that you feel really comfortable every time you’re online, where you feel like you’re operating in your favorite pair of slacks or it’s it’s your leather jacket, you know what I mean?

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, so and just to paint the picture for our listeners, I’m in the corner of my bedroom with a white background, I look like I’m stuck in the void in the matrix with nothing behind me so it’s very contrasting to this. So I don’t know what that says about me at the moment.

Mykel Dixon  

It’s great. Yeah, I mean I thought I thought about this recently, I’m a musician by trade, so I studied jazz many years ago and I still use that a lot in the work that I do now, coming from the arts, entertainment sector how can business, how can leadership cultures learn from that. But just, I was reflecting on this yesterday I’ve always had some kind of room, some kind of geographical location in a house I was living in even as a kid, but certainly when I flew the coop, that would that would hold and and home my expressions my experimentation my discovery, just a sacred space of self indulgence. A few keyboards around, you know, some records and mood lighting, and it’s just always been really important to me. I think I’ve done it by default, but I remembered again yesterday, ah, actually this is really something I should bring even more consciousness to and bring more intention to making this space even more feel like I’m sliding into the womb. Is that the right thing to say?

Murray Guest  

I think that the link back to the power suit of you being comfortable in your surroundings and authentically showing up as you. And like you, over the last nearly two years so many online sessions with people. I tell you what, I haven’t said this in any of the podcasts, I don’t like virtual backgrounds. I feel like that the edging of the of the human body in the virtual background just looks a bit crap, and just generally doesn’t work. 

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah it’s a bit cheap and nasty. We know that in five years time virtual backgrounds will look incredible, but the tech is not there yet. And on the one hand is pretty, it’s pretty extraordinary. And on the other it still just doesn’t quite cut it.

Murray Guest  

They’re like ringtones. Remember when ringtones was the thing where’d you sit there and look at what’s the best ringtone or you create a ringtone or you buy a ringtone. And now everyone just has the standard ringtone. Maybe virtual backgrounds are like that annoying frog. That will just disappear. Remember that.

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah I do. Yeah, yeah, Gangnam Style. All of those, you know, it’s fascinating even thinking about that, we have them as throwaway but the people that write those songs that the Crazy Frog and Gangnam Style. They spent a year on that. The marketing and the this and the that and then they cashed out big time and laughing all the way to the bank. What have you been listening to lately? Funnily enough, in the work that I do with large organizations particularly larger projects and programs. There’s one. We might go through a series of master classes or a bunch of events and then and then we arrive at this place where we start maybe the first session I call The Art of You. The second is The Sound of Us, how we can work more effectively together. The last predominantly ends with something I call The Shape of Now, so how can we take all this wonderful insight, and start to reshape the everyday experience of our life and our work in this moment. And so one thing I get them to commit to is 50 days. A 50 day project where they do something that they can do in less than five minutes a day, but claws back a bit of their self expression or reconnects them to the person they used to be or the person they hope to become. And, and I always go on this journey with them because I’ve done this ritual for many years it’s served me well. And the one that I started just yesterday, is to listen to an album from start to finish, with no disruptions, like we used to do. Before streaming and you just hear one song and it’s shortened. And I got one of the participants in this program to offer up what would be the first album I listen to and he said Mike Oldfield – Tubular Bells. So I listened to that. Remember that 1973 I think it was, and what a journey that was. It’s quite an odyssey that album.

Murray Guest  

Well, interestingly, if we were in my office, which I’ve just moved out of there today, the background in my office, I have 40 album covers that I’ve deemed are all killer no filler. It can’t be a best of or a live album, but it’s that album you can put on and listen to from start to finish. And some of them have some emotional connection as music does of course. But when I look at it, and that’s my background, and it’s those albums where you went right. That’s what an album was about not as you’re saying, you download one song or one song stream on song, and the effort, the band’s go to around the order of the songs and the transition and things like that so I think we might have some different perceptions of what should be on the wall and that’s the beauty of art.

Mykel Dixon  

Well, I think it’s only fair to give you the opportunity to nominate the album I listen to today, Murray.

Murray Guest  

Okay so, I, I would actually like to suggest you listen to and this might throw some of my listeners who know that I used to have a long, well my wife says it was a mullet, but let’s just say as long hair. For many years, and the heavier taste in music that I do like, but I will suggest Frankie Goes to Hollywood – Welcome to the Pleasure Dome. 

Mykel Dixon  

Oh here we go.

Murray Guest  

It’s a very good double vinyl. 

Mykel Dixon  

Love it. 

Murray Guest  

So, you and I both work with organizations around culture and leadership, and you’ve got me thinking around the jazz of culture.

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah, absolutely. As we all should be thinking about the jazz of culture. It’s a good meaty topic to talk about. I remember in the in the beginnings my father was a CEO in government when he was quite young, he got there about 38 I think, and then maybe 42/43, he left that and started a partnership brokerage, practicing you know around partnering, cross sector partnering. And this was around the time that I was studying and we used to have these chats and when we catch up and I talked to him about the relationships with jazz musicians, how you’d improvise live, and he would say, God, Mike, this is exactly what we’re trying to do in a partnering situation or in in a leadership context or when we’re delivering. There are so many parallels and we talked for probably 20 years around, God we really need to put something together, and then through the course of that I’ve seen at various points I’m sure we all have where people, someone will talk about it. You know the jazz of leadership, the jazz of culture, which is really good, but there is so much that we can take from, from the way that musicians improvise and come together and repurpose that in in business in the world of work.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, and the reason I’m thinking about the jazz, because I don’t have anywhere near the knowledge that you have around jazz but from my limited understanding as that creativity that comes from jazz music and that support and creating space for other musicians to to shine. And to do that versus I don’t know, a very structured, rhythmic process. Jazz is more playful.

Mykel Dixon  

And emergent. There’s a deep understanding of your own, there’s a deep relationship that’s built between you and your instrument. So you as an individual artist, or let’s say you as a person in a team, you know your instrument. So you’ve got that relationship with the technicality, the proficiency of playing a guitar, but you also have a relationship with music. So you have a relationship with your work, and you have a voice in that, it’s not a one way street like it’s a two way thing, it’s your, the way that you’re aware and you perceive music but then also the way that you create and your voice comes through in that. That’s the same in a, in a, you know work context where you might know your role, the technical things in your role, you’re in IT or you’re a HR director, etc. But then there’s your unique spin on that, which is great so there’s kind of two elements and then you put that in, in a group context and you go okay cool, so we’ve got quite a dynamic thing at play now where we’ve got a lot of different relationships with individuals with music, individuals with their instrument, and now coming together within with individuals and different instruments and individuals expressing different music to create something that is congruent and ultimately serves the song in such a way that, that moves an audience in a particular way so delivers an outcome to a customer or a vendor. So it’s really, there’s a lot of beauty to it.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, so one of the challenges I’ve seen is that relationship leaders have with their function their business unit that they lead, and then that shift to it’s actually relationship with the whole organization. And I’m feeling like that, you’re tapping into that when you talk about that, you’ve got that relationship with your technical expertise, your instrument, but you also need to be able to have that, that space connection with everyone else as well, so that they can thrive and that you can connect with them.

Mykel Dixon  

I remember, was it Einstein or someone like that, that said, you know, genius or intelligence is being able to hold two conflicting contexts at the same time. Yes, it’s that, so there’s a lot of what’s going on in jazz or in music. There’s, there’s so many conversations that are happening simultaneously. And there’s, there’s your intent, and you know your voice, you’re wanting to come through you’ve got an idea for taking the song in a particular direction, but then there’s immediate feedback, where the people in the band will hear what you play, and they’ll either alter what they’re playing to provide some contrast or they’ll complement what you’re doing. You might step out, you take a solo so then instruments that may be stereotypically the ones out front, then they may take a backseat and they support the role, the bass player takes a solo, but then you switch back and it’s all happening without, you’re not stopping. “Okay stop guys now you’re going to take a solo now, and then you’re going to…” It’s happening live, real in delivery, like work is happening live, real, in the moment. But there’s so many nuances and there’s this, this is where I think the world of work, and just society writ large should be focusing a lot of its attention, energy and attention right now is nuance, is going beyond just that shallow surface, immediate, this is what it looks like, this is what my experience has been thus far, this is what worked last time. To go deeper into, Hang on a second, because in my training you know I actually went to the Con in Adelaide and studied music there and fascinating to look back on I kind of missed that, I’d love to almost study again. But, um, and I missed this, you know, wouldn’t it be great if, as we rebuild just as a side to that, rebuild our world again post COVID that we, we do see an explosion of a renaissance where universities and and communities where there’s salons and there’s get togethers and we have philosophical discussions, etc, etc. But I remember, there’s so much training around how you listen, and there’s, there’s how we listen and then there’s how we listen and you can hear, you can develop such, it’s hard to articulate in words, but you can you can hear things differently, the tonality of notes rhythm, time, the relationship between all of those things simultaneously, when you really listen to things. And certainly when you get into, into production of albums and things like that you talk to different producers, the way that they can hear things in their putting, you know, changing the frequencies of particular things to make it sound so rich and warm that we, if you just have it on the background you’re driving the car on the way to pick up the kids. You’re not really in it. But if you, if you bring an active listening to music, it takes the, the whole experience takes on a whole new world and it does feel like it’s communicating directly with you and I think that is true of our work in the business context if you can bring that active listening, if you can really place yourself and be present to what’s emerging in front of you, you can hear things you’ll notice things that otherwise you might have missed, like driving to pick up the kids with, you know, with Whitney playing in the background.

Murray Guest  

I feel like there’s a, there’s a theme a red thread here around slowing down and being present. So, as you’re saying post COVID Renaissance whatever that may look like, and but then in organizations of really listening, creating that space, or, you know, as a musician, if you, you need to be present, don’t you, to really to riff on that music. How do you help leaders do that. So, you know the I’m too busy for that or I’ve got too much on my plate or I’ve got to deliver on Bloody x y and z. How do you help them shift that?

Mykel Dixon  

I think it’s really important not just to be present but in that presence to connect with something meaningful, and something and meaningful get thrown around all the time, but why I’m such a big proponent of the arts is that there’s a sacredness, there’s something that happens when you go to the theater and you’re watching people on stage or you go to a live gig and it’s not just being around people and having a few beers. There are moments in time that you feel something beyond yourself there’s a connection to something spiritual I would say,. at the risk of sounding woowoo, but it’s, it’s, there’s a presence there, that is beyond the limits of your rational logical 2% brain that’s carrying on, thinking about the shopping list and ra ra ra, the more that we can connect with those moments, the gravitas, the the gift. The mystery of existence, the more that then I think that starts to shape your behavior, the way you see and perceive the world, so that it’s not just being present in the moment it’s then what do you do and how do you connect with things other than your social media feed or other than the deliverables that need to get done by close of business today or other than putting out fires. Stopping, getting present. Now talking to an exec or you’re talking to someone that’s, that’s got a lot on their plate. The last thing they’re thinking, and certainly want to do is, okay, let’s just stop for a moment and listen to an album. Don’t be ridiculous Myk, I mean yeah maybe maybe at Christmas, after I’ve had a few wines. And a lot of the work I’ll do with people is actually priming them, getting them ready, teasing them, tempting them, just just subtly, you know, hitting their soul in a sense, that then we can get to each time that we touch it, that it becomes more familiar and it becomes more, the appetite rises for them where they’re like, yeah, yeah, that that place we got to last, I want to get back there again how do I get there again. Inevitably there is always a conflict with okay great so how do we further this work, listen to an album. Don’t be ridiculous. No, no, but how do we, what’s the ROI. It’s so it’s a real it’s it’s a dance.

Murray Guest  

I was actually biting my own tongue or trying to push some words back into my mouth, because the busyness of what people think they have on the plate is actually taking them away from the essence of what the role of a leader is all about, like what you’re talking about that’s, that’s what they’re there for. That’s what leadership is. It’s the people, it’s being present, it’s listening, it’s, it’s showing up. And when you talk about albums, you talk like there’s that, there’s a twinkle in your eye, about an album versus a track. Is that do you think coming from a respecting of the artist and what they’ve put into it, is that where that comes from for you?

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah, I think I think it is a body of work a lot of the time it’s almost like it’s, I guess that’s, that’s a subjective thing for most people but I would say, I mean we’re such a transient temporary world right now where everything is, if it’s not 30 seconds if I can’t get it delivered by tomorrow, I’m out, I’m done two clicks it was too hard, I want one click. But there’s something about, when someone has invested an amount of time in something you can get takeaway, you can get Uber Eats. But when things open up again, and we can go to a restaurant and you’ve got to get a park and you sit down and when your tables almost ready, would you like to have a drink at the bar in the meantime, they bring you some peanuts, you know, some elegant expensive peanuts and oh you can hear the clinking of glasses and then they seat you, and then you sit down, you’re handed a menu and we might have a glass of champagne to begin. There’s a whole ritual around that. Yeah, that the food tastes better because you’re you’re living in this experience, there’s more context to the experience that you’re having. And it’s a journey. And I think when you think about an album. It’s a journey. There’s context around it and even if you dive deeper into, you know you do learn about where where the band at in their career at that point, what was going on in their private lives, what were the social conditions, what were the political environment, etc. What delivered this work of art or this this message. 

Murray Guest  

It’s like when you’ve read about the relationships and what was going on with Fleetwood Mac when they recorded Rumors, makes Rumors an even better album.

Mykel Dixon  

Absolutely. And again, let’s tie this back to a work context if you were to think about a project, a significant project, digital transformation or some innovation that happens in a business. If we were to think about that as a journey, and the context that that that project sat within. And we came at it with an almost an artistic lens okay what can we create out of this, how can this, we leave a legacy with this so that people use this not as a case study, and write a HBR article on it, but it becomes something that people could look back on and continue to have a relationship with, get value from, want to share with their friends, as, as a work of art.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, where can we look back on it as something we’re proud of versus I’m just glad we got it done. And what’s the emotion that that then generates and the connection between each other, and, and how we, because we are emotional beings and then what’s the emotions that kind of bring to us and the way we approach our work and each other and in that process.

Mykel Dixon  

And that speaks to the challenge of the system so the architecture of the environment that we’re in, which is obviously efficiency, it’s time, it’s cost, it’s all of that stuff. And yet I’m yet to meet a person if after a glass of Pinot, or, you know, a meaningful session, that they don’t say exactly what you said, you know I really, I would love to be proud of this. Yeah, I want to do work that that I can be proud of that, that I can leave a legacy, even if it’s punching out emails, it doesn’t matter like the work itself doesn’t matter, it’s who we are as we’re doing it. And it’s how we feel as a result of the outcomes of our work, but the whole thing, the system that we have to live in, is almost pulling us in the exact opposite direction of that, which is the real challenge.

Murray Guest  

Yeah and I mean, there’s something there isn’t there around how it is so important to get leaders, aware, and on the journey, and supporting this at the top. Otherwise you’re like trying to, and I have worked with companies where it’s like an island of excellence in the company, where they’re like they’re doing something great, I want some of that, and you start to spread like a virus, can I use the analogy, a virus, but, but there is something isn’t about okay let’s actually look at this about what’s going on in the whole organization and let’s make that change and shift that from the top.

Mykel Dixon  

And the courage. I don’t think there’s ever been, or maybe that’s not the right way of saying it. Leadership is courage, you know, standing up for what you believe in, standing up, holding a vision, using your imagination, and right now when it’s, it’s a lot easier to keep doing things the way we’ve always done them. It’s a lot, well it’s easier in one regard it kind of chews you up burns you out you get fat. You might have your money but you’re miserable and then you feel like you’ve wasted 40 years of life. But the courage now for leaders at any level whether they’ve been leading for one week or for 30 years to say, Okay, this is it, this is the moment, we’re at a huge inflection point for humanity, we know, do one Google search, about, well being and, and the state of affairs right now in a work context not even in socially or politically, but then you get the great resignation, which I’m sure many of your guests have been talking about, we know that 41% of world right now seriously considering leaving their jobs in the next three months. That’s not, it’s not just trivial LinkedIn fodder.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, there’s a real reset on what’s important in my life right now, and where my passions and my priorities of my life are versus, you know, a few years ago I want to go up in the levels of the organization and I want to go and lead a multi function area or I want to go and lead a different market in a different country, no actually, my health, my well being and my family is, is the focus right now. And that is consistently coming up. What, what have you noticed around the shift to online in organizations, and the impact that’s having to people. So, this big shift of like what you and I have been talking about that we’ve been doing, but what about internally with everyone having to show up online, in some way.

Mykel Dixon  

Burnt out, fatigued, doesn’t even come close to what they are feeling right now just just chewed up and spat out essentially. And again, I mean we’re on an evolution so it was a pretty radical shift that literally overnight the whole world had to figure out how to do teams and zoom and etc, etc, and so there’s been that learning curve and obviously we would show up at work nine to five or eight to six for most people, and then suddenly that became all day every day sitting on a screen and then it was all let’s turn the camera off, or no cameras on because they’re the…. Yeah. It’s just everyone’s just fried, the brain is fried.

Murray Guest  

Tammy was sharing something with me the other week there’s some research around when you’re looking at your own face so much, it actually impacts your own well being. Yeah, because we’re now looking at us, whereas, you know you normally look at yourself in the mirror, you know, for you it might be 20 times a day, for me 38. But you know you do that, but now it’s like we’re doing it all the time and that impacts how you see yourself and your own, you know, I don’t know, from a mental health point of view your self worth and all those other sort of criticisms coming up.

Mykel Dixon  

Cognitive load, and the constant. Oh, there’s Megan, Oh, there’s Megan, and then that the cumulative effect of that over a day a week, a month, two years. Yeah, it’s having a real impact and don’t forget also the COVID kilos, so it’s not like we’re looking at ourselves in our best perhaps light, you know, we’ve been cooped up a house, you look great, your filter that I have on. It’s all CGI.

Murray Guest  

Any tips you’ve got for people listening, to help them? I’m not saying to make themselves look better on camera…

Mykel Dixon  

Talk to my Photoshop guy.

Murray Guest  

What has worked for you showing up online so much more in these last 18 months?

Mykel Dixon  

It’s all energy for me and and it’s, it’s and by energy I mean intent, a lot of the time. So, yes, you got to step away. Yes, you know there’s there’s great study Microsoft did around people on teams they did the brain scans, and they’ve got all you people that you can look it up online, Microsoft Teams brain scan whatever, you’ll see the people that don’t have breaks throughout a day, the brain starts off in this lovely blue, green, and then it’s yellow, orange and dark red. And that’s after, you know, just a few hours of back to back meetings, whereas people that took 15 minutes between meetings throughout the course of their day stay in like a yellowy greeny blue thing for most of the day so it’s in a practical sense, stepping away, going outside, hugging a tree, getting some sunshine for 15 minutes so I actually recommend to people, whatever, if you got a 60 minute meeting make it 45, and that 15 don’t cram that with more work, get up and move around. Now I don’t do that all the time either. None of us do, sometimes you can’t it’s unavoidable you’re in back to backs. But, but from a, from a, not a practical sense I guess from a, from an energetic sense, being really, if you’re acting like, if we go deep here like if you’re showing up in a way that’s incongruent with who you are that’s exhausting at the best of times, but if you’re having to do it on a screen where you can see yourself and you can’t quite read the other people’s emotions and they’re looking down and they, they turn their camera off. Oh my god, what does that mean are they not engaged, they didn’t like what, all of these things. If you’re stuck in if your brain is stuck in, I need to prove something here, I need to impress them. I need to look like I’ve got my shit together and I don’t want to be seen to be incompetent around Professor are, you’re done by 9:15. So this is in some ways if we put an optimistic lens on this, this could be a catalyst for all of us to not just reconsider what’s purposeful and meaningful in our lives, kids you know family, but to think about well how am I showing up in the world? Am I, I mean it’s hard enough with social media and all that whole game that’s, that’s, that’s fueling our ego and insecurity and self esteem issues, but to have to have a mean if there’s ever a real kind of, you know gloves off conversation with yourself and think, is this sustainable. Am I do I care too much about what they think of me, because that’s going to exhaust me whereas if I can just be who I am as I am. There’s more energy there.

Murray Guest  

Wow, I jumped to the alignment in who you are, that authenticity, that, that, going to, I remember years ago a leader said to me, you know, the most important thing is that when you put your head on the pillow at the end of the night sorry at the start of the night to go to sleep that you’re proud of who you have been during the day, that you’ve been in alignment with who you are, living your values, and not just the words you say but how you show up and interact and that’s what I’m hearing. That’s so true Myk that, that that interaction there that and how you that you can just be you and that as humans we encourage and embrace that of other people. And that creating that psychological safety, that people Oh, I do want to turn up today and I’m not cleanly shaven, but I’m here and I’m present, but that’s how I feel.

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah. Well, I’d say, again it comes back to courage, because it’s the courage to be you, all of you as you are. And it’s the courage to create that space for others and I think obviously we live in a culture and particularly in the west where we celebrate and hero, gregarious, outgoing, extroverted, you know ra rara. If that’s not you, but you feel that you’ve got to be that to keep up. If you’re someone that actually your comfortable space, your safe space is taking in the whole meeting and saying three words, three minutes before the end. If that’s your jam, like, be courageous enough to actually be that and you might have to articulate that for people so that they are like, Are you okay you know haven’t said much, but if you’re the outgoing gregarious one, be that obviously be be, you know, conscientious of others and not hogging the airtime, etc, etc. Yeah, I mean for me, I’m quite jovial, I play the fool I’m kind of like the court jester in the room you know so I can get the ear of the king, and I can poke fun at the Emperor and not wearing clothes and things like that. And a lot of that’s intentional. But but a lot of the time I have to be really brave because I will. It works for me is where I find my center, it’s it’s effortless. And so there’ll be times where I’ll have a significant client or there’ll be someone that doesn’t quite know me yet or there’ll be one or more often it’s someone that’s trying to sell me into their senior or their client or their partner, etc, etc, and they’re like, Ah, I love Myk I just am not sure how he’ll be perceived by this straight laced kind of person. And if I surrender my self expression in that moment, you know, obviously you got to read the room. Yeah, but if I, if I, if I act in an incongruent way with who I am I’m exhausted after it. I’m second guessing myself. If I am who I am, yeah 99 times out of 100 I get off the call feeling great, I can put my head on the pillow, knowing that I was, I wasn’t disingenuous in any way, but more often than not, people that that you would think wouldn’t maybe come on the Myk journey are like, Oh God that’s refreshing. Yeah he’s perfect for us, he’s so different to me, but that’s exactly what we need right now, etc, etc.

Murray Guest  

Because there’s that, that BSD in our heads, that bullshit detector that will say, Oh that is that person who they truly are or that’s not, and that inauthenticity is worse than anything else that you know trying to convince someone how you’re going to help them and you’re not being your true self is going to do much more damage than just being you and if you are you and then it doesn’t go ahead, that’s okay. Yeah, because it wasn’t meant to be. Well and this ties back beautifully to the jazz band, where if you’re playing the guitar, you’re playing the bass, I’m playing the keys, someone else’s on the drums.  I would play drums. 

Mykel Dixon  

Perfect so you’re the drummer Murray, don’t you try to play the guitar when I’m playing it. It’s like, we’ve got a guitarist, but geez, we need a drummer, and we don’t need any old drummer we need Muz on the drums, and that it you know that, not just in terms of the the technical component of a team, and each person fulfilling a role, but on a, on a character basis.

Murray Guest  

Have you seen the Metallica documentary, Some Kind of Monster? Because they get into the depth there of when they start telling each other what to do. Don’t tell me how to sing. Yeah, and then I’ll start to tell you how to play the drums.

Mykel Dixon  

I mean well, it’s funny, years ago I had a dear friend of mine, Dr. Sean Richardson, he speaks and consults, he works with all the elite sporting teams, does a lot of AFL stuff like that. We got close doing some programs together and I was in a band at the time and we were trying to you know make it and do all those things and he said just before that came out actually, but then it was very poignant at the time, he said, I’d love to work with you guys, you know, as a band, and we did all that you think that documentary we did that over the process of about two years where we were crying together, we were yelling at each other, we were getting so raw and we would do these rehearsals and in particular ways and it was profound in terms of the relationships that were built, you know, among, among the band members. But what that did, I think for our performance as well that when it came time there’s a couple of significant gigs that I can think of that we we outshone, we were just, you know, one of the support acts. I remember one in particular was an Aria after party, and we were a nobody, and there was all these famous people and the Arias finished and then the club filled up, and we were supposed to be on first but it just so happened that everyone left the Arias, literally, as we were going on stage in this fancy club in Sydney, so we had the best gig, the best time slot. Yeah, and we smashed it. And then that the air conditioner started leaking on the PA right very fancy gives just so bizarre that it happened in this way. And so the sound system blew. Hilariously we’d done all these rehearsals through this process with with our psych friend where we dream up these potential scenarios in the future, and one was, what if the sound system blew and we were mid gig and it was like all these important Record Label types in the room, and it was like huh, we’ve already rehearsed this. And so then they’re standing on the fall back and yelling at the crowd and going one more song and they’re all ahhh while the sound guys are trying to fix it and it was, it just lifted the roof off and then led to a lot of opportunities out the back of that. But the relationships that were built through being that, funnily enough, I was, it was starting to be around the time where I I’d always had, I’ve always kind of been a front man, but I’ve resisted that role. And I’ve, I’ve, it’s come natural to me but I’ve always equated it with arrogance, wants the spotlight, blah blah blah, which this is perfect actually for a leadership conversation. Some of us are really meant to be leaders, and we, some of us can shy away from that’s always the hero’s journey where there’s the that resisting the call, and I think I’ve resisted the call a lot but it wasn’t until we got in doing this work with one another where it’s like no Myk, for us to be a success, you’re the guy on the mic, you’re the guy at the front, you got to be that guy.

Murray Guest  

Well that sounds like you had developed some perceptions and labels of what you thought a front man was or a front person, and you didn’t want to be that, as opposed to what you brought in your own personality and your truth to be a great front person. And I think that’s leadership lesson there is, tell me about this one, that then leadership isn’t about you trying to be the leader that someone else is it’s about you being the leader that you are.

Mykel Dixon  

And leading for the moment. What like what what is required in that moment and not like other people’s interpretation or projections about you in that moment, I mean you think of all the premiers around this country that have had to step into different leadership roles, everyone’s got an opinion on it. Yeah, we’re not them, having to make those decisions, what kind of leader do you want to be, or what what kind of leader does the moment call for, and are you willing to step into that despite the criticisms, you know the nitpicking. It’s very powerful stuff.

Murray Guest  

Oh yeah. Funny story a few weeks back I was running a session for a team, and I thought okay, I’m just going to ask them do you think you know you’re more of an Angus Young, or Malcolm Young type person. And this young guy says, who’s Malcolm Young? And I went what?! What?! I thought, did I not read the audience? Like come on.

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah. Well, this is another challenge isn’t that the, the generational divide, and that in the past and purely because of the internet, you can be you can you can live in a pocket of the internet in a two to three year age bracket generally speaking, where there’s 1000s and 1000s of 1000s of people you’ve got all the social connections you need you’ve got, you’re fulfilled your this is your world. But everyone in your workplace has no idea that that world even exists. And the context that you’re in is, he could say yeah but do you know, or are so you mean between like Grimes and blah blah blah and you’re like who? What? Who is that? And so we can’t communicate because we’re all in these little pockets, believing that our pocket everyone should know stuff. Yeah, so I guess underneath that is what are fundamental principles, or what is, this is it actually interesting, I’m doing a bunch of training at the moment with a beautiful woman in the states who is consciousness training and perception and awareness but it’s all, it’s, it’s an initiation process it’s with, you know, Quechua tribe in Peru and I won’t go too deep into that but very very powerful stuff and one thing we spoke about funnily this morning was in indigenous cultures, and the technologies that they that have existed for 10s of 1000s of years, but really the fundamental underlying principles of of consciousness of the universe of evolution is, is the idea of continuity, there’s a consistency where you learn something and then that informs the next, you don’t forget it, and it builds and it builds and it builds, that’s what evolution does that’s what indigenous cultures who have kept certain technologies, rituals, ways of being with one another, initiations, etc etc, that hold the culture together that strong, that strength. Whereas us in the West, we’re like sieves, things go in and then we’ve got holes through us, we don’t retain any information, we don’t retain… how many people, how many of your listeners have done more than 10 leadership programs in their career? Yeah, you know, and I’ve heard this before somewhere. Yeah, we read books we skim them, we go I think I’ve read yeah I think I read that a few years ago, wait is that the one..? We are not building on the knowledge or the wisdom. And so then think about okay, leadership, multi generational people with all these different things, how can we return to or rediscover some underlying fundamental principles that can anchor us and anchor our leadership in a way that it doesn’t matter if they’re based in Singapore, they’re of another gender with a completely different cultural background and lifestyle choices. But there there are certain foundational principles that we agree to and understand and can you know work from that place.

Murray Guest  

For me, this goes right back to your point earlier about going deep, as you said, the training you do at the moment’s going deep, listening going deep, truly, truly listening, being present, and with your learning going deep. I was running a session yesterday with a group of leaders, and this introduced a model around communicating with clarity, and this guy said, Ah, I think I’ve done this before somewhere maybe? That’s a great reminder, you know like, Okay, so let’s let’s lock it in and, and talk about that. It’s interesting the other one I’ve seen a few times, you just reminded me is when you share a bit of content in a session. And some people switch off. Oh I’ve seen this before so I switch off, versus, and I’ve in my best moments I challenge them and with that courage we talk about saying, Well, how can you actually add to the conversation? How can you talk about your experiences, because we don’t just listen to a song once or watch a movie once or whatever it is, so how can you actually continue to be part of this conversation and bring your perspective and not just switch off.

Mykel Dixon  

And what’s different this time, because you are. So the first time that you saw that piece of content, you’re a different person to who you are now, etc etc. Stand in a creek, it’s never the same creek. Yeah it’s really it’s fascinating stuff and even the depth I mean, the, the, we’re living in shallow times. And it is, again, the courage for people to stop and to, to invest in richer, deeper, scarier conversations with themselves, with their loved ones, with strangers, with the work, to stand up and question is this all there is, is there more to this. Can we go further, can we actually be more generous? Is this about wellbeing for all or just profit? You know what, what are we really doing here. And what would it take and just sitting in that question, sitting in the inquiry longer. I remember you know, the great David Bowie, talks about a, there’s a great interview of him and the interviewer asked him, What do you see is the difference between artists and non artists. And David says, I don’t think there is one. You know I don’t buy into this idea, this story that artists are somehow geniuses, there’s the stereotypical narrative that they’re separate to everyone else. I just think they sit in the inquiry longer which affords them what we perceive to be highly original thought. We think that they come up with these amazing things, they’re just not rushing to an outcome, sitting in the tension of what else?

Murray Guest  

There’s a, there’s a link there isn’t there between the first and second albums. How many bands where the first album is just amazing. Then the record label says, Quick, get a second album out and you go a hang on that just didn’t quite hit, the second album.

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah, well that’s, and that’s a that’s a leadership program isn’t it. That’s a product that’s, that’s, and it’s one thing for I think everyone again it’s a lesson that we all need to learn and somehow get a get out there into business vernacular, the way that we all relate to this stuff is, you might have done this project before but you haven’t done THIS project before, you might have done a program like this before but you haven’t done THIS one, you might have had a customer that looks and sounds just like this person but it’s not THIS customer. It is unfolding before you now now now now now. So bringing yourself to that, the information, the data that becomes available, the opportunities that exist now will almost always deliver a different outcome, a different result, more value etc etc etc.

Murray Guest  

And that links so well to what I’m doing with a client the moment around growth mindset and being curious, because in essence what you’re saying is, this is new, every time it’s new, you’re new, you’re different, client’s different, situation’s different, leadership program’s different, be curious. Sit in it, and inquire.

Mykel Dixon  

Yeah. And I’d say, even in addition to that, I’m not sure if you’ve come across as a beautiful guy in Melbourne called Ash Buchanan, and he’s developed even a mindset beyond growth, and he calls it ‘benefit mindset’. And essentially, how can we go from, Okay fixed, everything is the way it is, I can’t change, you can’t, to growth, oh possibilities here, what could be available in this moment to why. What do I want to do now with this information and ultimately how is this building, growing, reconnecting, regenerating an interdependent ecosystem that is all life on this planet. So we’re not just learning and staying open so that we can make more money. We’re staying open and growing ourselves so that we can build a beautiful world, that works for all.

Murray Guest  

Myk, Thanks so much. This has been awesome.

Mykel Dixon  

Pleasure, man. Thank you. Well, thanks guys it’s, I wasn’t expecting that.

Murray Guest  

So, just out of clarity for the first 100 odd episodes. No one has brought their own crowd with them, so well done.

Mykel Dixon  

Wow, that’s great. I didn’t really.. I could go on, believe me.

Murray Guest  

Yes, yes you could. Um, so, a couple questions to ask you. What is your definition of inspired energy? And not the one you’ve given me, which is a beautiful one. Can I just say, and I can share that but what, I’ve had inspired energy today, I’ve got more energy, after this conversation than before it because you’ve brought that so tell me what is your definition?

Mykel Dixon  

Truth, truth, beauty. Yeah, inspired energy for me is when is, it’s joyful. And it’s, it’s honest and natural I would say organic maybe is a good way of phrasing it like when I I can’t help but think when we’re when we’re operating from the center of ourselves, as cliche as all these things are like, they get chewed up and spat out by the memes on LinkedIn. But, but when we’re operating like an old growth forest, when everyone is just in service of everyone else. And we’re all just doing and being what we came here to do. It’s so inspiring. It’s gorgeous and I think if more and more people did that, allowed that I’ve always had a story in my head I remember thinking about this when I was 14-15, driving through the suburbs in Adelaide, I grew up in Adelaide, and I used to think I wonder how many Jimi Hendrix’s live in this suburb, but have never picked up a guitar for fear of, you know not sounding good, or, or how much it’s going to take of them to do it or what their friends might or, or getting distracted or the pressures of no you’ve got to go and study finance or marketing or ra ra ra, but how many of us still today could pick up that metaphorical guitar, and start to build that relationship with the thing that makes us come alive. There’s a great quote by an author perhaps to leave everyone with, we often think we’re tired because we’ve done too much but quite often it’s because we’ve done too little of what sparks a light in us. And this inspired energy that you are Murray, that we’re talking about is getting back to the things that light a fire in us.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, well I totally agree, totally agree. Do you have a mic drop sound that you can play there? That’s pretty good. Cause that that that is a great way to finish, I totally agree. How can everyone and here’s the invitation, and encouragement based on what you said earlier. For the next 50 days how can you take five minutes out to do that thing that you make sure is bringing that fire back into you.

Mykel Dixon  

A sacred space of self indulgence. Don’t do something that will lead to an outcome. Don’t do something that, you know, if I do 20 situps a day by the end I’ll have abs. Falling back in love with the journey, the process, five minutes a day of just something that reminds and realigns you to the thing that makes you come alive. I mean, come on we need to get a place where it’s more than five minutes a day but if we can start there, I think we can do that.

Murray Guest  

Yeah, yeah, I’m looking forward to people sharing what that thing is that they do. And, and I’ll close the loop with you Myk and let you know what they are.

Mykel Dixon  

Can’t wait. Thanks for having me Murray, it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Murray Guest  

It’s been amazing to catch up, we’ll make sure your website is in the show notes, people can check you out there and amazing time with you today my friend. Thank you.